The Deacon's Bench

The Deacon's Bench


Could some core beliefs be “deal-breakers” for the Anglicans?

posted by jmcgee

Liz Lemon would be impressed.  

The New York Times is helping to put the Anglican conversion story in context, by warning our Separated Brothers and Sisters that they might want to thInk twice before jumping the Tiber — and suggesting that, when it comes to some issues, well, “that’s a deal-breaker”: 

When the Catholic Church announced this week that the Vatican would make it easier for Anglicans to convert to Catholicism, much was made of the many similarities between the two faiths. And there are a few Catholic beliefs that might strike Anglicans as foreign, and one or two that could be deal-breakers for potential defectors.


The Times of London published a handy list of some Catholic beliefs Anglican converts would have to embrace. Social conservatives who are upset by the Anglican Church’s acceptance of female priests and openly gay bishops are unlikely to have trouble adopting the Catholic beliefs that only men can become priests and that, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it, “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered” and “under no circumstances can they be approved.”


Ideas that might be harder for Anglicans to accept include the concept that the Pope is infallible, at least at certain moments, that Mary was the product of an “immaculate conception,” and so born without sin, and the belief known as transubstantiation, which means, essentially, that the communion bread and wine are not just symbols but actually become the body and blood of Christ.


This last point was the subject of much debate in the sixteenth century and particularly exercised Martin Luther, who called transubstantiation “a monstrous word for a monstrous idea.” 


In the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion, adopted under the leadership of Queen Elizabeth in 1563 to spell out the fundamental principles of Anglican doctrine, the belief was ridiculed in the strongest terms:


Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.


In an opinion column for The Times of London on Thursday, Libby Purves pointed out that Anglicans will also have to accept “tough teachings on divorce and the contraceptive ban.”


Then again, Anglican converts could also just follow the lead of many Catholics and simply decide to not accept the Church’s guidance on a host of social issues. According to a survey by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life on the eve of Pope Benedict XVI’s visit to the United States in 2008, American Catholics, at least, seem to feel perfectly entitled to not embrace some of the Church’s core beliefs.


You can find more at the Times link


Personally, I tend to think that tradition-minded Anglicans  would be more inclined to accept some of the doctrines that infuriate or just annoy some cradle Catholics.   

But I could be wrong.  



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kenneth

posted October 23, 2009 at 2:54 am


That’s why the whole thing smells of a political sham and a hollow culture war victory on Rome’s part. There never were any real “barriers” before to Anglicans or anyone else who felt a sincere desire to become Catholic. I haven’t seen anything indicating that most of these conservative Anglicans have given up on Anglicanism. Being a disaffected Anglican doens’t make one a Catholic any more than it makes one a fireman or opera singer or Indian Chief. Yet now they seem to qualify just on the basis that they don’t gays or women clergy any more than the pope does. On that basis, Fred Phelp’s gang could be Catholic, as could most of the Muslim world.



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Bob

posted October 23, 2009 at 6:30 am


kenneth, please consider reading up on this matter in the Catholic press, or read the actual statement of the Holy Father granting the provision, rather than relying on the secular press, which usually doesn’t know jack about reporting on religion. Fr. Dwight Longnecker is a good source.
This provision never would have been considered by the pope except that various Anglican groups approached the Holy Father with the request. Their desire was to become Catholic while still worshipping within the liturgical tradition they had come to love. If these groups hadn’t given up on Anglicanism, why did they approach the pope for this favor? No, not all “conservative” Anglicans (as the media insists on calling them) will become Catholic. But, I rather suspect that those groups who requested this favor in the first place will seriously consider doing so now that the pope has granted it.



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Mr Flapatap

posted October 23, 2009 at 7:57 am


There is a great (and very strong) lady in my parish who used to be an Episcopalian priest. One day my wife asked her how she felt about now staying “down here” when she used to be “up there”. Her reply: “very happy!”



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wineinthewater

posted October 23, 2009 at 12:42 pm


I think that this is just another example of how the secular press just doesn’t understand religion, especially not Catholicism. Like most of the secular media, the NYT can’t seem to understand this move in any terms other than the political “conservative/liberal” and the social culture wars.
There were several things that were keeping many Anglicans from crossing the Tiber before that the POs would remove. They would have had to leave behind a lot to join Rome. There aren’t a lot of Anglican Use parishes or liturgies available, so they would have had to give up their distinct Anglo-Catholic identity .. their liturgy, their culture, etc. And many Catholic bishops have shown a reluctance – whether out of ignorance, fear, lack of capacity or confusion – to support the Anglican Use. If they had gone over as individuals, they would have had to leave their spiritual communities behind, the parishes that had nurtured their faith. Now, many would say that the Truth is worth the sacrifice, but we are a faith of mercy, and it is and act of mercy to remove barriers whenever they *can* be removed.
This is not just about women’s ordination and homosexuality. But the secular press can’t seem to wrap its head around issues like the authority of scripture and Holy Tradition, so it resorts to the easy hot-button issues. They don’t seem to see that the gender and sexual issues are not the reason that some Anglicans want to leave, but rather symptoms of the reason that some Anglicans want to leave. They are symptoms of the Anglican Communion’s increasing willingness to trump scripture and Holy Tradition with contemporary social and cultural norms.
And so the kinds of Anglicans who might want to join Rome are characterized as being *against* something, when more truly, they are *for* something. They are *for* Christian orthodoxy, and the Anglican Communion increasingly is not.



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Andrew Sindler

posted July 14, 2012 at 9:55 am


I am truly sad that the standards of secular society falls so short for the Cathies. I am beg God every day to raise my level of virtue to the level of the Catholic Church so some day I may become pope and help encourage practice of and help to cover up sex with millions of children throughout world.

Sadly, I am (the saracasm has now ended) a good person who is not on a one way trip to burning in Hell for eternity like the Catholic Pope of present (and all the popes past) almost all of the cardinals, bishops/archibishops, priests, deacons, etc. throughout the world. The Catholic Church without a doubt is one of the most evil enterprises which graces the pages of history to the present. There is no God in you freaks of nature only perversion and sordidness. You Catholics are just the same as the ancient Romans because you adopted more than half of their traditions. You Catholics are so backwards that your moral compasses say north is south and east is west.

If you were anything like what you claimed you were you would made sure every single clergyman who ever touched a child was excommunicated and handed over to their country’s criminal justice system. But, you are nothing more than liars and sickos. You people are the Antichrist and have been the greatest purveyors of evil for over 1500 years. Your church’s lust for pedophilia harks back to days so far in the past that even Michelangelo Buonarroti Simoni (the renaissance painter) was probably a priest rape victim. Leo X was known for having little boy orgies and that was all the way back in the 1510’s and 1520’s.

The homosexuality and pedophilia have always existed in the church as it was a popular custom amongst the wealth of ancient Rome and hypocrites that the Roman Catholics are and have always been they of course deemed it necessary to adopt and assimilate the culture of the people who were feeding them to the lions (Catholics do not know the difference between power and good and so treat them interchangeably). There was never a time in history when the Catholics stood for anything other than evil and demonic ethics. Jesus Christ and the disciples were never Catholic and if the church existed in their time they would have flat out refused to join an organization so despicable. Jesus was critical of the priesthood from the Temple of Solomon to a high degree and they were not even 1/100 as bad as the Catholic Church in their lack of ethics.

So, in conclusion Bill Donoahue go to hell where you belong and let the fire burn some perspective and tolerance into you if that is possible. The rest of you religious catholic should go and follow him and leave and take with you your superstitious and nonsensical religion and its zealous followers.



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Andrew Sindler

posted July 14, 2012 at 9:58 am


I am truly sad that the standards of secular society falls so short for the Cathies. I am beg God every day to raise my level of virtue to the level of the Catholic Church so some day I may become pope and help encourage practice of and help to cover up sex with millions of children throughout world.

Sadly, I am (the saracasm has now ended) a good person who is not on a one way trip to burning in Hell for eternity like the Catholic Pope of present (and all the popes past) almost all of the cardinals, bishops/archibishops, priests, deacons, etc. throughout the world. The Catholic Church without a doubt is one of the most evil enterprises which graces the pages of history to the present. There is no God in you freaks of nature only perversion and sordidness. You Catholics are just the same as the ancient Romans because you adopted more than half of their traditions. You Catholics are so backwards that your moral compasses say north is south and east is west.

If you were anything like what you claimed you were you would made sure every single clergyman who ever touched a child was excommunicated and handed over to their country’s criminal justice system. But, you are nothing more than liars and sickos. You people are the Antichrist and have been the greatest purveyors of evil for over 1500 years. Your church’s lust for pedophilia harks back to days so far in the past that even Michelangelo Buonarroti Simoni (the renaissance painter) was probably a priest rape victim. Leo X was known for having little boy orgies and that was all the way back in the 1510′s and 1520′s.

The homosexuality and pedophilia have always existed in the church as it was a popular custom amongst the wealth of ancient Rome and hypocrites that the Roman Catholics are and have always been they of course deemed it necessary to adopt and assimilate the culture of the people who were feeding them to the lions (Catholics do not know the difference between power and good and so treat them interchangeably). There was never a time in history when the Catholics stood for anything other than evil and demonic ethics. Jesus Christ and the disciples were never Catholic and if the church existed in their time they would have flat out refused to join an organization so despicable. Jesus was critical of the priesthood from the Temple of Solomon to a high degree and they were not even 1/100 as bad as the Catholic Church in their lack of ethics.

So, in conclusion Bill Donoahue go to hell where you belong and let the fire burn some perspective and tolerance into you if that is possible. The rest of you religious catholic should go and follow him and leave and take with you your superstitious and nonsensical religion and its zealous followers.

Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/deaconsbench/2009/10/could-some-core-beliefs-be-deal-breakers-for-the-anglicans.html#ixzz20baQuuZn



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