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Blogalogue


Bio: Orson Scott Card

posted by bnet

Best known for his science fiction novels “Ender’s Game” and “Ender’s Shadow,” award-winning writer Orson Scott Card is also a committed Latter-day Saint. He has written screenplays for animated children’s videos from the New Testament and Book of Mormon, and is active in his LDS community.



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Donny

posted June 29, 2007 at 11:30 am


It is dishonest for a person of Card’s obvious education to equate the Book of Mormon and any other LDS doctrine and teaching to that of the Christian community and culture and its doctrines and beliefs. It is deception to lure children into Mormonism by using Biblical truth and the Book of Mormon’s fanciful fantasies.
In plain words, there is so much difference between Latter Day Saints and Christians, as the two being factually completely different and irreconciable beliefs. Holding them as compatible is dishonest.
We could start with the literally physical interaction between Mary and the Mormon “God the Father, Elohim” and the events potrayed and written about by the writers (obvious “Christians”) of the Gospels and and New Testament.
Reading the Pearl of Great Price and The Doctrine and Covenants (especially 132) and there is easy evidence that what Christians believe from the Apostolic age until now, is vastly different and completely different than what Mormons believe and believe in.
Jesus is not the spiritual brother of Satan. Just writing that down is painful enough. Let alone the fact that Mormons believe it to be true.
And, last but not least, is the schism between Latter Day Saints and the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of latter Day Saints. Which of course looks more like what happened in Islam then it does the history of the Christian Church.
Be proud and be bold dear Mormons. But please, for honesty’s sake, do not call your religion “Christian” in any way or context.



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Joshua A.

posted June 30, 2007 at 3:02 am


Please research the person of Joseph Smith. This man was a horrible man, he murdered, stole, molested children, claimed he carried the golden tablets that Maroni the angel gave to him over 5 miles. Being attacked by a bear, and mugged twice. According to the book of mormon which in the very first page claims ‘the Bible is the complete’ Gospel, why then do we need more than the Bible. The system of Heaven to the mormon is unattainable, especially by their leader who was killed only after opening fire on a mob. (Although mormons will downplay that as they were attacked, all records prove to the contrary) At any rate the ‘celestial’ heaven as described by the mormons is a place where basically you need to be perfect to enter, you can not have murdered, slandered, cursed, molested, stolen, lied, cheated, or much much more. By this definition Joseph Smith himself would not be there. Furthermore, the mormon temple at Nauvoo, Illinois you will see some very interesting satanic symbols present. Two upside down pentagrams flank the giant arched door. These symbols are commonly known as the ‘Goat-head’ or ‘Rams-head’ having one point down, and two points to the side for ‘whiskers’ with the other two up as in horns. From the testimony of two people who had walked through (at the opening ceremony as oddly enough, no one is allowed to enter the mormons temples, unless you’re mormon, so much for ‘Christian’ love of hosting parties) these individuals told me the intense satanic message displayed inside. The reasons why mormons and Christians cannot agree on things is the fundamental difference of Truth. We Christians need to pray for those that are lead astray by the Mormons, they desire people to reach perfection in order to be placed in the 3rd and highest part of Heaven. Christianity, TRUE Christianity is displayed by Christ, His teachings, and self denial. However misrepresented that message has been in the past, it is a clear message. It is historically accurate.



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Atrus

posted June 30, 2007 at 11:28 am


I don’t know too much about this issue; but I sure love “Ender’s Game.”



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Ann B.

posted June 30, 2007 at 3:36 pm


To Scott: I’m a staunch member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a 67 year old widow who has been taking care of a physically disabled daughter for almost 20 years. I guess I’m pretty insulated, in a way, from the kind of attacks on Mormons that I’ve just finished reading on this blog. (I never do blogs but I do log into your site quite often because I very much enjoy reading your views on practically everything.)
Speaking not as a scholar but just as a simple human being trying to live a good life in a world filled with pornography, child abuse, spousal abuse, etc etc etc, I really don’t know what to say about the responses I have just skimmed through. The respondents’ level of understanding regarding “Mormon” doctrine and beliefs quite literally leaves my brain in a spin. (Sometimes I can’t even make sense of what they’re trying to say.) For me and my daughter, our greatest peace in this life comes from our belief (and knowledge) of our Savior, Jesus Christ. No attack from anyone (and there are many, many attacks throughout this blog), whatever his/her ideas about “Mormons” past or present are, is going to shatter that peace.
It is certainly interesting the “can of worms” that has been opened since Mitt Romney announced his intentions to run for president. I suppose there is some benefit in “debating” someone like Dr. Mohler re: the topic, Are Mormons Christians? But after reading the responses, I think you should concentrate your time and energy on writing more of your wonderful books instead of trying to convince these Mormon bashers (most of the responses strike me as simply that–bashings) that we’re not as weird, crazy, or satanic as they are already convinced we are.
(BTW, I saw Richard Cracroft several months ago, just before I moved me and my daughter to Raleigh, NC to be closer to my other children/grandchildren in Northern Virginia, and told him I had finally discovered you [SciFi and Fantasy weren't my literary interests during my years at BYU]. He had some pithy comments, right on, about your talent that no doubt was incubating in that pre-existence so much of the Christian world doesn’t believe in. The values [Christian values straight out of "Mormonism" despite what anyone says otherwise] you weave throughout your books is astounding and gratifying. Keep up the good work [and keep the faith!])



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Robert Decell

posted June 30, 2007 at 11:31 pm


I am a mormon convert.
I have been to the methodist, Baptist, and Catholic churches. The bashing lies that LDS must put up with from leaders of these so called christian churchs is due to ignorance and concern for their livelihoods. These churchs are nothing more than businesses masqurading as sacrad institutions. The writing is on the wall.
For these to admit that the LDS is what it claims to be would destroy mainline christian. For the sake of gain and honor they deny truth and spew lies. The only thing these so called religionist learn from history and scripture is that they learn from neither. LDS find themselves in the same predicament Christ did. But this time his kingdom will not be overrun. It will fill the earth.
Protestant religion was founded by Martin Luthur not Christ. Christ organized his church. He called and ordained apostles giving them the authority to ordain, lead, baptize, etc. The Greeks, and their philosophies, which were adopted by the catholic church destroyed this sacred order. Luther knew he did not have the authority to start a new church but his entrepenreal side could not resist. Man cannot take the honor upon himself to act in the name of god, he must be called of god.
The hellenized Nicene God fashioned from years of debate in 325 ad is not the god of the bible but of xenophanes and plato. Worshipers of this god draw close to the true god with words but the deny his power. They have a form of godliness but teach for doctrine the commandments of men. Are mainline religionist so unitelligent that they cannot see they represent this? Can they not see that revelation means new ideas and knowledge? They attack the LDS church because they will not accept modern revelation. In other words they deny Gods power. What amazes is that when confronted with these simple truths, that are obviously correct, they remain close minded. But this is nothing new. The educated religionist of Christ’s day reacted precisly the same way. History truely does repeat itself.



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Ben K.

posted July 1, 2007 at 6:06 am


Let’s look at the word, “Christian” ok. What does this word mean, as a word not a philosophy? It means “follower of Christ”, does it not? LDS follow the teaching of Jesus Christ. This is stated in the churches name, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. The LDS plainly follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I’ve never understood why so called “Christians” get so offended by LDS calling themselves followers of Christ.
Then there are the Baptist. I have been to a number of Baptist services and meetings. I am very confused by them. The often start by telling you that you are damned at birth and even as a child you are condemned to hell before you even know the difference between good and evil is. I’m not an expert at quoting the Bible but I do remember Jesus very often speaking about the innocents of children.
The second thing I always hear from Baptist preachers is, you may enter the Kingdom of God (Heaven) with nothing else than a belief that Jesus Christ is your savior. Then a preacher will go on and tell you the Holy Covenant of Baptism is not neccessary.
Ok, just stop. They are called Baptist, meaning, “those who Baptise” right? Why are they telling you not to get Baptised when Jesus said, you must be baptised by water and the fire of the Holy Ghost.
Now who is really leading you astray?



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Anonymous

posted July 1, 2007 at 10:13 pm


Who gets to define “Christian”?
History.
Mormonism is not a different flavor of Christianity, anymore than Islam is.
Like Islam, Mormonism is a religion founded by a man who took the sacred scriptures of others and then added a bunch of new material he claimed was revealed to him by God. Muhammad claimed to receive his new and improved revelations from the God of Abraham from the Angel Gabriel – Joseph smith claimed to receive his from an Angel named Moroni. Muhammad presented this revelation as the Koran, Smith presented his as the Book of Mormon.
These parallels cannot be ignored when considering how to classify Mormonism.
Both are “rooted” in Judeo-Christian faith and retain certain elements, but the additional material rules out the serious consideration of either of them as Judeo-Christian by an impartial judge.
Which is what history is meant to be.



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geophys63

posted July 1, 2007 at 11:44 pm


Smith’s obfuscation of the facts, the historical facts of the bible, are difficult to over look … for instance the garden of eden ….in St Louis Missouri … is really a hoot … evan mordern DNA will bring all women back to the area of the t1gres and the euphrates and northern africa for a common ancestor ….this is real science … and real scientists will state that there is no conflict between true science and the bible …. this is not creationist nonsense … but true scinece invovlving all modern aspects of geology, biology, physics, astronomy and chemistry ….
Joe Smith was a flim flam man … selling polygamy … and men being men swallowed it hook line and sinker ….the rest is all the nonsense spiraling out of control all the way to the magic underwear …



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Confutus

posted July 1, 2007 at 11:56 pm


The analogy between the Koran and the Book of Mormon fails because while the Book of Mormon is saturated with references to the divinity of Christ, the Koran explicitly denies it.
I would be hesitant to trust another Christian to offer an impartial opinion on the matter. One might ask a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu, and an atheist to read the Book of Mormon and offer his or her opinion whether believers in it should be counted as Christian.



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Anonymous

posted July 2, 2007 at 11:31 am


I don’t understand why Mormons find that they can compare their belief to that taught in the Bible. As an orthadox Christian who has studied and still studies the Bible, I can honestly say that the LDS way of thought is very much un-biblical. Now understand that I do not say that to try and offend anyone because I very much have respect for the Morman people, but to compare Mormanism to Christianity of the Bible, you must understand that there are very big diffences in the two. I know that I sound mean, but I honestly do not mean to. I just wish that the Morman believers would look into their own doctrin and see that Mormanism is not based on the Bible. I want to challenge those who are Mormans to look into your blief and ask yourself the question of wheather or not the Morman way is Biblical or not. Thanks. May Christ be a light to those who need him. Later.



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Andrew Miller

posted July 2, 2007 at 2:16 pm


I think Orson Card nailed the issue down. How do you define “Christian”? If it means accepting the New Testament as divinely inspired and Jesus Christ as the Son of God, then Mormons are Christian. If it means accept post-biblical creeds and definitions of God, Mormons are not. You can’t accuse Mormons of being “unBiblical” because they don’t accept the post-Biblical definitions of God and the Trinity such as “homoousous” and “substantia” and “co-equal,” terms that are un-Biblical themselves.



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Val Zdilla

posted July 2, 2007 at 3:52 pm


Again the entire concept of “great apostasty” is false. There is an unbroken line from the time of Christ until now. Both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches are examples. The church Fathers, who were taught and knew the actual apostles and many of them were the early bishops continued the unbroken tradition. If there was a “great apostasy” someone whould have recorded it in history. It seems odd that with the great records of other historic events of the time, nothing is written about the end and demise of the Christian church.



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Clayton

posted July 2, 2007 at 8:47 pm


Ben K.
Baptists and many other churches baptize by immersion as Jesus demonstrated as a sign of committing your life to God. They know that it is by grace, though, and not by works such as the work of baptism, that we are saved; grace through faith and not of works lest any many should boast.
“… Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.” John 3:3-6
The Bible does not say that you must be baptised by water and fire, but that you must be born again. Born of the water (the flesh) and born of the Spirit (not fire). The birth of the flesh has already occurred; it is the birth of the water of your mother’s womb; the birth of the Spirit is when we are born a second time, born again.
God be with you



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Sandi Boley

posted July 2, 2007 at 10:53 pm


I jumped into this because it was asked what is grace?
Grace to me is the enabling power of Jesus Christ who gives it to anyone who repents and belives in Him after all we can do. He did not make us objects to be acted upon he made us free agents to choose write from wrong, if we make a wrong choice we ask for strength to indure what wrong we have done it is wrong to ask to change our situation when we can pray and ask for His grace which is his enabling power, the very power that raised Him from death by Hes Father in Heaven. Where else can you get the greatest power if it’s not through Jesus Christ our Savior who died for our sins. He tells us in the scriptures My Father and I are one, He is in me and I in Him and if you receive me I will be in you and you in me. We are like a dirty twenty dollar bill, when and if we committ a sin no matter how big we don’t loose our value,our Father in Heaven still loves us so much He sent His only begotten son to die for our sins.



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FR Gough

posted July 3, 2007 at 10:33 am


As a Mormon, I used to participate in this “I’m Christian, no you’re not” argument.
Now, when someone makes the charge, I simply reply: “I’m comfortable letting God make that determination.”
So let me say it here. I’ll let God decide whether I’m Christian. Everyone else’s opinions on the matter are irrelevant.



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Michael Fullmer

posted July 3, 2007 at 11:32 am


I am an ex-Mormon born-again Christian. Having been on both sides of this issue, I can tell you categorically that Mormons are NOT Christians. Their whole belief in “Jesus as the first-born of the spirit children of Elohim” is completely debunked by even the most cursory reading of the Bible. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God“. To pretend that Jesus was anything less than God, merely the best of the spirit children, is to completely deny His sacrifice at Calvary. The Jesus that I and millions of real Christians worship was, is, and forever will be God.



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Marj Carlson

posted July 3, 2007 at 12:22 pm


I cannot believe that someone cannot derive the meaning of Christian and look at the name of the Mormon Church. A follower of Christ is exactly what the Church preaches. Their doctrine expects that the individual will follow the teachings of Christ each and every day. The
crucifiction and resurrection are reminded all the time – Jesus served himself for the sins of world and redemption of man. Ask any member of the church about that doctrine and you will get that exact answer. It is time to accept the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints! As it grows so will people’s knowledge and understanding of it. Decency is always pressed and pushed aside.



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Michael Fullmer

posted July 3, 2007 at 3:59 pm


Just as you can’t judge a book by its cover, neither can you judge a church by its name. I mean, no one REALLY believed that the GDR (German Democratic Republic – better know as East Germany during the cold war) was either Democratic or a Republic, but rather a repugnant Communist dictatorship. In the same way, the Mormon church is to Christian churches what the GDR was to democracies.
Your church minimizes Jesus in every way imaginable, from your doctrine of Jesus not as God but as “pre-existence big brother”; from your doctrine of being “saved by grace after all you can do, which pretty much says that we earn our way into heaven, notwithstanding the Biblical evidence that categorically states we’re saved by grace – period; and let’s not forget the way you’ve hijacked the term “the gospel” to refer not to the Good News of Jesus Christ, but rather to “the restored church”.



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Ed Peterson

posted July 3, 2007 at 5:50 pm


It is important to realize, like so many other religions, Mormonism is a works based religion. For the adherent of the Mormon faith, the only way to the highest heaven is based upon works, not the blood of Jesus Christ.
For me, it is a matter of hermeneutics; a person must decide what rules of interpretation to apply and when to apply those principles. For the Christian this involves Scripture and other sources, i.e. historical writings, writings of the church fathers, the background, or Isagogical analysis of Scripture. Cleary, Scripture teaches basic Orthodox teachings. These are the same teachings the Mormon church denies.
As such, the Mormons take for granted the veracity of extra biblical information which often conflicts with the basic teachings of the Bible. Their hermeneutical principles have become clouded with these other teachings; subsequently, the Mormon doctrine is heterodoxical.
Feel free to contact me with any in-depth questions or polemic statements



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CJ

posted July 3, 2007 at 11:28 pm


Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus could be a brother to Satan? As we are all children of god we believe we are all brother and sisters, meaning that Hitler, Stalin, and Lenin are brothers with Moses, Abraham, and John the Baptist. I’ve never understood why this point of doctrine was so contentious for my fellow Christians.



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Joseph

posted July 4, 2007 at 2:52 am


Gee!!!??? “WHO is to say what Christianity is????” COME ON MR. CARD & you others; THE BIBLE!!!
It’s not “CHRISTIAN” to believe concepts NOT TAUGHT in the ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS WRITTEN by the Prophets and by the ORIGINAL APOSTLES OF JESUS!
ANYONE can check into the ORIGINAL HEBREW AND GREEK MANUSCRIPTS to VERIFY if the Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, masons, Islam, scientology, and all the rest of ANY SELF-proclaimed “Christian” group, OR ME, is FACTually true to ACTUAL Christian principles and doctrines as laid out by the prophets/writers of the Old Testament and the Apostles who wrote the New Testament, ALL of which is GOD INSPIRED as II Timothy 3:16 & 17 says: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is PROFITABLE FOR doctrine, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, That the man of God may be mature, thoroughly equipped for every good work!”
But lds don’t want “Biblical” doctrine, to be reproved, corrected nor instructed in the Bible’s righteousness because they don’t want to admit IT is different than their teachings. When ACCURATELY PROVEN that this is the case, all they can do is say then that somewhere, somebody left the TRUE teachings of Jesus and the Disciples and wrote their “own” version of doctrines so they don’t have to actually believe/agree with the Christianity/Christian doctrines found in OUR Bible.
But then, again, most Mormons are like Ann B. (June 30) who are simple people who, and unlike Ann, are too dishonest to admit that they don’t “speak as ‘scholars,'” of the Bible nor the books of Mormon theology, for that matter!
It is clear from these blog people’s statements that we Christians are “attacking LDS” and “our doctrines are the same things found in the Bible” and that “we are followers of Jesus,” that those making these statements are not being objective but only defensive!
Their statements that “There’s NO DIFFERENCE between the BIBLE” [which existed FOR CENTURIES BEFORE the Book of Mormon] “AND WHAT MORMONS BELIEVE” and their claims to be part and parcel of “orthodox Christianity” also show that they are either ignorant of what the Old and New Testaments STATE and how those doctrines differ from what they are taught and/or what the book of Mormon and other LDS doctrinal books actually say, or are just lying about the differences between what they are taught to believe and what OUR Bible actually says!
The term “LATTER day saint” is an attempt by their OWN people to DISTANCE themselves from NON-Mormon believers/saints and the beliefs of those who were Christians who believed differently than the stated doctrines of Joseph Smith! So, SORRY Marj Carlson (July 3, 2007), the “name” of your group DOESN’T show you are followers of the ORIGINAL Jesus Christ nor HIS doctrines, but those dreamt up by Joseph Smith.
THUS, it is PATENTLY DISHONEST to CLAIM that you “LATTER DAY” people believe the SAME THING as we who ALIGN OURSELVES WITH THE FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINES believed by the “FORMER SAINTS!!!!!”
And WHY would you align yourselves with and base your beliefs on the writings of a man from the 19th century but NOT WITH THE WRITINGS OF MEN WHO WERE DIRECTLY TAUGHT BY JESUS HIMSELF? Their writings have been around since the FIRST CENTURY and WIDELY CIRCULATED AND ACCEPTED BY THE ORIGINAL CHURCH OF “ORIGINAL SAINTS!”
You MUST/HAVE TO believe that Jesus was schizophrenic:
A. IF YOU BELIEVE He came to North America and preached to the Native Americans AFTER the resurrection BUT right BEFORE ascending back into Heaven HE foolishly AND CONTRADICTORILY tells the Disciples BACK IN JERUSALEM, “Go into ALL THE EARTH preaching the Gospel and baptizing in the name [singular- ONE name, not nameS] of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” – BY THE WAY WHICH IS EVIDENCE OF THE TRINITY, along with MANY other Scriptures from the Old and New Testaments that show the PLURALITY OF GOD, even the name Mormons freely use ELOHIM!!!!
DID HE FORGET HE ALREADY WENT TO OTHER PARTS OF THE EARTH WHEN HE TOLD THE APOSTLES THIS? You must believe He later said, “Doh! I forgot! I was already THERE! Sorry Apostles! BEEN THERE! DONE THAT!!!”
B. God and your LATTER DAY JESUS ARE UNJUST, AS WELL AS SCHIZOPHRENIC!!! LET’S SEE HOW SOUND MORMON LOGIC AND REASONING REALLY IS:
B.1- The golden tablets were GIVEN TO THE NATIVE AMERICANS BUT WENT UNTRANSLATED, buried UNTIL some white guy could translate them, NOT FOR THE INTENDED NATIVE AMERICANS BUT FOR SOME OTHER WHITE GUYS/GALS OF EUROPEAN DECENT LEAVING THEIR INTENDED AUDIENCE OF MILLIONS TO MISS OUT ON SALVATION.
I have watched PBS documentaries surrounding the Mormon’s trek out west and their leaders and followers, and NOWHERE did they show ANY Native Americans in the Photographs, movies, or modern accounts of Mormon existence;
B.2- Jesus came to N. America 20 CENTURIES AGO TO PREACH SALVATION TO THE NATIVE AMERICANS right after the Resurrection BUT let MILLIONS OF THEM MISS OUT ON SALVATION UNTIL THE MORMON’S COULD GET GOING UNDER JOSEPH SMITH;
B.3- THEN the intended object group (NATIVE AMERICANS) of the efforts of Jesus AND Moroni, as well as Blacks and other minorities later, CAN’T EVEN BE LEADERS IN THE “CHURCH” UNTIL RELATIVELY RECENTLY!
It’s not an “attack” to point out that their [Mormon] doctrines TOTALLY CONTRADICT what the Bible says!
If ANY LDS is honest with him/herself, they will have to admit that they know nothing about the Bible. It’s clear that those who made statements about Martin Luther are ignorant of the facts. Luther didn’t risk his life to correct the false teachings of Roman Catholicism just to satisfy an “entrepreneurial bent” like Robert Decell (June 30) suggests, nor to oppose some creed as Card suggests, but to correct the FALSE teachings of the Catholic Church as espoused by errant popes.
Luther, as are we who are correcting the false claims that Mormonistic philosophy is compatible with the teachings of the Jesus and Apostles of the Bible, merely tried to point out that what Catholicism was SAYING the Bible taught wasn’t compatible with what the Bible ACTUALLY SAID! Mormon teaching can EASILY be shown as FALSE DOCTRINE when examined against what the Bible ACTUALLY is, SAYING for ITself!
I’m not a “church leader out to make my livelihood from preaching,” as Robert Decell (June 30) suggests; I’m a retired teacher! And I have studied the Old and New Testaments gaining meaning from exploring the original languages of many texts from the Bible. You may have “been to the Methodist, Baptist, and Catholic churches” even learned the man-made doctrines of those churches, but it is obvious that you didn’t have the BIBLICAL KNOWLEDGE to POINT OUT FROM SCRIPTURE WHERE THEY HAD/HAVE GONE WRONG IN WHAT THEY WERE TEACHING IN CONTRADICTION TO WHAT IS ACTUALLY WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE ITSELF!!!
After I got saved and started reading my Roman Catholic Bible, it didn’t take long to see that certain doctrines AS ESPOUSED BY THE VATICAN AND TAUGHT BY MY PRIESTS AND NUNS were UN-CHRISTIAN!
My Bible read that the prophet Isaiah wrote concerning the people at the time of the advent of the Messiah (Jesus)”There are NONE RIGHTEOUS no NOT ONE;” Romans 3:23 CLEARLY STATES that “ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God;” Other scripture says that “There was ONE who was righteous;” so it didn’t take long for me to be honest enough to ditch what I was FALSELY taught to believe- that Mary the mother of Jesus was SINLESS and see that THE “IMMACULATE/SINLESS MARY” DOCTRINE, when checked against what the BIBLE ACTUALLY TEACHES, DOESN’T ADD UP and wasn’t BIBLICALLY ACCURATE!!!!!
Martin Luther wasn’t protesting against some “creed(s), but against MAN-MADE DOCTRINES the catholic church was brainwashing people with that were contrary to BIBLICAL DOCTRINES TAUGHT BY THE APOSTLES AND FOUND RIGHT THERE IN ANYONE’S BIBLE!
How honest is your statement, FR Gough (July 3, 2007) that you “USED TO PARTICIPATE IN I’m Christian, no you’re not” argument, when you are FOR your Mormon church sending “MISSIONS” people out to Christian households like mine and the duo tries to convert me/us even after I/we tell them I/we am/are a Christian(s), if your position as Mormons is not STILL “Mormons are Christians and you who are NOT followers of Joseph Smith are NOT and need to get with his program for salvation?”
Ben K., THE WORD “CHRISTIAN” WHEN IT WAS COINED IN ANTIOCH IN THE FIRST CENTURY LITERALLY MEANT “LITTLE CHRISTS.”
IF YOU CLAIM TO BE A “LITTLE CHRIST,” WHY DO YOU SAY AND BELIEVE THINGS CHRIST HIMSELF DIDN’T BELIEVE OR TEACH nor did HIS disciples?
IF YOU CLAIM TO BE A CHRISTIAN, LITTLE CHRIST, HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE SOMETHING THAT IS OPPOSITE FROM WHAT JESUS AND HIS OWN APOSTLES TAUGHT?:
1. DO YOU BELIEVE AS STATED IN MATT 1:23 THAT JESUS WAS BORN OF A VIRGIN [NOT IMPREGNATED BY ELOHIM] AND THAT “THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME EMMANUEL, WHICH IS TRANSLATED ‘GOD WITH US?'”
One doesn’t have to be too bright to REASON OUT that if Mary had sex with Elohim, JESUS COULDN’T BE “BORN OF A VIRGIN!”
2. DO YOU BELIEVE LIKE THE APOSTLE JOHN 1:1 “In the beginning was the WORD [Jesus] (logos in the original Greek) and the WORD was with God and THE WORD WAS GOD” – DO YOU BELIEVE JESUS WAS GOD?
3. Do you believe that Jesus [THE WORD] created ALL THINGS as John 1:3 says: “ALL THINGS were created BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE(?)” OR JN 1:10 “He was in the world, and THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew Him not.”
One doesn’t have to be too bright to REASON OUT that if NOTHING that was made was made WITHOUT Jesus, that HE created EVERYTHING that was MADE, THAT HE COULDN’T HAVE MADE HIMSELF, AND HE COULDN’T POSSIBLY BE, as taught by lds, THE BROTHER OF LUCIFER who is a MADE being!
One also doesn’t have to be too exceptionally bright to deduce that Jesus has to be the same CREATOR as the creator of Genesis chapter 1 if IT says ELOHIM created the heavens and the earth and in MANY places, the Psalms, Isaiah, Proverbs, etc…, God formed the earth, dry land, the seas, the heavens, man, animals, vegetation, etc… THEN Colossians 1:16 OF JESUS it is written, “For by HIM [JESUS] were ALL things created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created BY HIM AND FOR HIM!!!!!
4. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CLAIMED TO BE GOD BY SAYING THINGS LIKE “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE,” AND CLAIMING TO BE THE “I AM” John 8:28 AND NOT REFUSING THE WORSHIP O PEOPLE KNEELING TO HIM?
Only a fool or those ignorant of the EXTREME CARE AND PAINS TAKEN IN the transmission of the original writings the Holy Word of God would say that THE BIBLE HAS BEEN CHANGED FROM WHAT THE APOSTLES WROTE:
THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS OF THE APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST, of which there were MANY COPIES made and circulated amongst THE ORIGINAL SAINTS IN THE FIRST CENTURY, STILL EXIST!
If anything I said Mormons teach is inaccurate, write and let everyone know SPECIFICALLY the doctrines you people teach:
WILL ALL OF YOU MORMONS WHO WROTE IN TO SAY YOU BELIEVE THE SAME AS THE BIBLE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS:
How do you get saved from hell?
Is there a hell?
Is Jesus God?
Where did Jesus come from?
Is Jesus the brother of Lucifer?
What is the reward for a Mormon after death?
How is a Mormon’s sin taken care of?
What is salvation?
Who made the earth?
Why was Jesus crucified?
How was Jesus resurrected?
What happened after the resurrection?
Sincerely,
Joseph Robinson



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Joseph

posted July 4, 2007 at 5:19 am


Mormons, PLEASE GOOGLE, WIKIPEDIA, ASK JEEVES, ETC.. BEFORE YOU SHOW YOUR IGNORANCE AND SPOUT PROVABLE LIES ABOUT CHRISTIAN CONCEPTS AND PEOPLE LIKE THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION, MARTIN LUTHER AND WHAT HE DID, AND WHAT WE BELIEVE AS CHRISTIANS!
TO CJ | July 3, 2007:
You state: “Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus could be a brother to Satan?” and “I’ve never understood why this point of doctrine was so contentious for my fellow Christians.”
WE Christians DO NOT believe that they are “brothers” because it’s NOT a “point of doctrine” IN THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE!!!!
John 1:3 says that Jesus created ALL things that were MADE, as does Colossians 1:16 & 17 [READ THESE CAREFULLY!], AND SATAN WAS MADE! Satan is the same Lucifer who was an angel, A CREATED BEING, that rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven [SEE ISAIAH 14:12 THRU 14:21]!
IF COLOSSIANS 1:19 SAYS “FOR IT PLEASED THE FATHER THAT IN HIM [JESUS] SHOULD ALL FULLNESS DWELL,” AND IF COLOSSIANS 1:15 SAYS JESUS IS “…. THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD” AND IF COLOSSIANS COL 1:16 & 17 SAYS JESUS CREATED THINGS “IN HEAVEN, PRINCIPALITIES, THINGS INVISIBLE” – ANGELS – AND THUS SATAN, AND COLOSSIANS 2:9 SAYS ‘FOR IN HIM [JESUS] DWELLS ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY,” AND IF HEBREWS 1:1 THRU 2:5 EXCLUDES JESUS AS AN ANGEL, HOW CAN HIS CREATION, AN ANGEL NAMED LUCIFER/SATAN BE HIS BROTHER OR THE BROTHER OF GOD?
IT IS CLEAR FROM THESE FEW SCRIPTURES THAT YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT CHRISTIANS BELIEVE ABOUT SATAN AND JESUS AND THAT YOU DON’T KNOW THESE FEW SCRIPTURES, LET ALONE THE MANY OTHERS THAT SHOW CLEARLY THAT JESUS IS NOT THE BROTHER OF SATAN/LUCIFER!!!!!!
You don’t understand these things because you have no knowledge of what the Christian Bible has to say about who Jesus is, how one becomes a child of God, the creation, nor the doctrines that we believe in.
We are NOT all children of God!
Jesus told the unbelieving Jewish leaders of his time that they were “…. of their father the devil…” and that LIARS “….are of THEIR father the devil because he is a liar and the father of it…” See John 8:38 thru 8:44
TO CJ | July 3, 2007:
You may believe “….we are all brother and sisters, meaning that Hitler, Stalin, and Lenin are brothers with Moses, Abraham, and John the Baptist,” but THE BIBLE DOESN’T TEACH THIS!!!!!!
Jesus STATES CLEARLY in the Gospel of John (John 1:12 & 13) saying “But as many as RECEIVED HIM [Jesus] to THEM gave he POWER to BECOME the sons of God, TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME: WHICH WERE BORN NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD!”
THE BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS HERE THAT DOERS OF EVIL ARE NOT OF THE LIGHT AND EVEN HATE THE LIGHT [JESUS IS THE LIGHT ACCORDING TO JOHN 1:6 THRU JOHN 1:9], WHICH, CONVERSELY AND AUTOMATICALLY, MAKES THEM [THEY MAKE THEMSELVES] MEMBERS OF THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS (JOHN 3:19).
YOU CAN’T THEN BE SERIOUS ABOUT EVIL DOERS LIKE “Hitler, Stalin, and Lenin” being “brothers with Moses, Abraham, and John the Baptist!??????” NOT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE THAT IS!!!!!
THIS IS ONE EXAMPLE OF WHY THE BOOK OF MORMON IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH THE BIBLE AND MORMON BELIEFS ARE NOT CONSIDERED “CHRISTIAN” DOCTRINES NOR EVEN THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST!
UNLESS A PERSON IS BORN AGAIN AS JESUS STATES IN JOHN 3:3 thru 3:21, they are NOT part of God’s kingdom but the kingdom of darkness (See John 3;19 thru 3:21!
The Bible CLEARLY does NOT state that everyone human are “brothers!”
Martin Luther didn’t “START A NEW RELIGION CALLED PROTESTANTISM!” HOW FOOLISH/IGNORANT!
Protestantism was not a new “religion” but a MOVEMENT PROTESTING THE FALSE TEACHINGS AND OPPRESSION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!
PLEASE, AT THE VERY LEAST, FIND OUT WHAT CHRISTIANS BELIEVE AND HOW YOU DIFFER FROM THESE BELIEFS AS MORMONS BEFORE YOU SAY YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW CHRISTIANS CAN SAY YOU DON’T BELIEVE WHAT WE DO, OR THAT YOU BELIEVE THE “SAME AS CHRISTIANS DO,” OR YOU BELIEVE AND TEACH WHAT THE “BIBLE” TEACHES, OR, ESPECIALLY, THAT YOU TEACH THE SAME CHRIST OF THE BIBLE!!!!!!
JUST STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Nancy Baer

posted July 4, 2007 at 12:06 pm


I am a Baptist. I was raised in the Episcopal church. I had never met a Mormon until I moved to Texas. I have several Mormon friends and worked for a Mormon doctor. They are no different than any of my other friends or employers other than the fact that they were probably more trustworthy than some. I believe that we as Americans have been given the freedom to worship God in our own way. I believe Mormons are Christians by the fact that they believe in salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ. Every “Christian” religion has differences and I don’t believe in bashing any of them. I may not believe in their doctrine nor they in mine but as humans and children of God we are all called to love one another.
I have not been paying much attention to the political candidates yet. But I can guarantee that if Mitt Romney is the best candidate I would vote for him.



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Ben

posted July 5, 2007 at 12:34 pm


I think that Jospeh Robinson(July 4 2007) pretty much summed it up the best way. Simply read what he wrote, look up the verses for verification, and you will see the truth.



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Pastor Bill Langill jr.

posted July 5, 2007 at 2:00 pm


Dear: Friends
My experience has been that people that leave their respective Fellowships, do so because they are looking for something deeper. I must admit that many mainline denominations are experiencing this truth at this time. Faith is not an equation to be solved or memorized but rather lived. Most leaders in the church today are more interested in being (right)within their narrow interpretive model i.e. Calvin, Luther, The Pope, Joesph, etc. I have heard it said that the longer it takes to explain something the less likely it is to be true. This applies to the Mormon Church as well it is time for a return to the risen Christ, Son of God, Saviour of men’s souls. What is a Christian? a Christian is not one who is one outwardly, but one who is a Christian of the Heart. When you meet one you will know it for he or she walks with a Risen Lord. You will know they are Christians buy their Love, and example of a Christ like life. They might even have some real answers to some real life problems, what a thought!
Pastor Bill Langill jr.



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CrossWise

posted July 5, 2007 at 8:09 pm


I am a “Christian”, and am a member of the Southern Baptist Churches.
I am also WELL acquainted with the history & teachings of the Mormon Churches.(There are more than one)
Having spent the better portion of my life studying the Bible, Christian history, and people in general; I can say without any malice or intended slight that Mormonism is NOT “Christian”.
Simple honesty requires that I also admit that as far individual Mormons go; most which I have met, known, and worked with are generally hard-working “good folk” in an earthly sense. They cherish many of the same earthly values I do; and they exhibit a genuine zealousness for what they believe.
Yet for all that, and I say it with utter humility: They are very much like all other men who reject the true Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ “For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they do not submit themselves to God’s righteousness.”
(Rom 10:3)
And regardless of how industriously, in an earthly sense they endeavor to do well religiously; The Scripture in them is fulfilled which says… even the plowing of the wicked is SIN. (Pro 21:4)
I would hope that rather than dismiss this as yet another “Mormon bashing post”; honest Mormons would consider carefully the distinct differences between their own teachings and that of the Bible OBJECTIVELY.
Sincerely



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Bill Carlisle

posted July 5, 2007 at 11:20 pm


If there is an established traditional Christian orthodoxy, why are there hundreds of denominations? I agree that there is one, but I suspect my definition of it would be considerably shorter than that of any of these educated Christians. Since I have no degree in theology, I define a Christian as anyone who believes Jesus Christ is the son of God and rose from the dead, and who has declared such belief publicly. I also believe that religion is defined in James 1:27, not by tradition. Sure does eliminate a lot of jobs if you look at it that way, though.



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nowandlater

posted July 6, 2007 at 12:02 am


A different Jesus for Abraham Lincoln?
Abraham Lincoln was the biggest religous misfit of all the presidents. If one examined Abraham Lincoln’s beliefs, they would be viewed as heretical. In the words of Lincoln’s friend Jesse Fell the president “seldom communicated to anyone his views” on religion, and he went on to suggest that those views were not orthodox: “on the innate depravity of man, the character and office of the great head of the Church, the Atonement, the infallibility of the written revelation, the performance of miracles, the nature and design of . . . future rewards and punishments . . . and many other subjects, he held opinions utterly at variance with what are usually taught in the church.”
By some standards Arbraham Lincoln would have been a second choice if a true believing Christian was available to vote for.



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nowandlater

posted July 6, 2007 at 12:04 am


In the words of John Leland, the Baptist preacher instrumental adding the 1st ammendment to the Constitution, “The liberty I contend for is more than toleration. The very idea of toleration is despicable; it supposes that some have a pre-eminence above the rest to grant indulgence; whereas all should be equally free, Jews, Turks [Muslims], Pagans and Christians. Test oaths and established creeds should be avoided as the worst of evils.”



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David Chiu

posted July 6, 2007 at 2:58 am


I once encountered an elderly fellow in Taipei, Taiwan — he asked this question of me (an ordained ministered of the Lord Jesus Christ):
“How can you claim that ‘God so loved the world’ when you deny everlasting life to those who fail to ‘believeth in Him'”.
He really thought it was a telling point that there seemed to be a contradiction between universal love and conditional salvation!!
God really does love all of us perfectly, and no matter when or where we may have been born, He will grant us a full and fair opportunity to earn salvation as defined by the Lord in John 3:15.
Not matter how much we do, it is ultimately grace that saves — I thank God that He includes all.
Some may doubt God’s omnipotence, thinking that grace will not cover those who (as Mormons) accept Jesus as their personal Savior, the promised Messiah, and Lord.
I’m thankful to trust that He is not so limited.



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Joy Dawson

posted July 6, 2007 at 9:34 am


I’m not a Mormon but I do believe that the Book of Mormon (named after one of the writers in the book), is about the “other sheep that would hear the Lord’s VOICE”. (This from the Bible.) They would not hear the gospel from someone else, they would HEAR HIS VOICE. Surely some of you have wondered who those sheep were that Jesus talked about. And the 29th Chap. of Isaiah—that they would speak “low out of the dust” refers to the buried plates of the history of a wonderful group of people, who would leave their record, some from 2200 BC some from 600 BC for all to read. The civilization destoyed itself about 400 AD through sin and immorality, though many descendents of these people are still here. (America beware that we don’t do the same.)
Not everyone who believes in the book of Mormon believes that Jesus and Satan were brothers, or in celestial marriage, or polygamy, or Adam/God. Some of you need to investigate other faiths that still believe that the Book of Mormon is true.



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Travis

posted July 6, 2007 at 12:54 pm


As a Christian (who is not a Mormon), I am primarily concerned with the truth claims of the LDS that are historically, archaeologically, and geographically incompatible with the facts.
I would encourage anyone interested in in learning about the differences between historical Christianity and the claims of the LDS to investigate the facts for themselves.
Here is a good place to start: http://www.lhvm.org/vid_bible_med.htm



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David Chiu

posted July 6, 2007 at 3:06 pm


Travis —
That PBS special on the Mormons had a telling quote from some guy who was a real doubter, something like:
“… there is no more archaeological etc. evidence for the Book of Mormon, than there is for the historical verifiability of Jesus.”
What are accepted as “facts” is ever evolving, especially in science, as well as history.
As I said above, contradiction is often in the eye of the beholder.



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Theophile

posted July 6, 2007 at 6:42 pm


It it ridiculous to presume that we, as a people, are ignorant of our history, of the character of Joseph Smith, et cetera. However, it is apparent, from the comments being made, that there are far more non-Mormons who are conspiculously more ignorant of these than they accuse us of being. We are accused of being ignorant for not accepting at face value unsubstantiated claims against us — I would find the hypocracy amusing if it did not disgust me so. As the above poster wisely said, “contradiction is often in the eye of the beholder.”
Suffice it to say — I know I am a Christian, and I know that Jesus Christ was and is the Saviour, the Messiah prophecied of by Isaiah, Malachi, and countless others, the Son of God by whose atonement, and no other, we are saved. Insofar as the Nicene creeds agree with that statement, I am satisfied with them; insofar as they digress, I do not trust them. We do not need our faith in the Saviour to be verified by anyone else for it to be real. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge it, it is there, and nothing else matters.
God bless you all insomuch as you will let Him.



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Terry

posted July 6, 2007 at 10:35 pm


Why is it that no matter what the topic is, just let a (gasp) MORMON comment on it, and the anti-Mormons come out of the woodwork full of self-righteousness and “holy” judgement casting us into hell as if they actually had a divine commission from God to do so? “Please, Mormons, don’t even hint that you are Christian, because you aren’t!” (paraphrasing). Brother Card had a good point: who determines who is Christian and who isn’t? Some have responded with the typical “the Bible does!” Joseph Smith summed up a reply to that arguement when he stated that “the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.”
The Bible is only as good as the understanding of the person interpreting it’s meaning. I’ve been in Bornagain chat rooms on aol and witness self-professed bornagain Christians condeming each other to hell because of a disagreement on some point of Bibilical doctrine. I’ve chatted with those who claimed to be perfect, no longer capable of committing sin, merely because they believed (wrongly so, in my opinoin) that they were made perfect on the day and hour when they became “born again”. Jesus had paid for all their sins, past, present, and future and therefore whatever they did was no long a sin because it had already been paid for. I’ve spoken with those who believed that it was okay to lie about Mormon doctrine and beliefs if the lie resulted in a Mormon leaving the church. I’ve discussed God with self-professed bornagain Christians who said that God was capable of deceiving a person if it suited His purposes. I’ve been told that God only answers the prayers of a Christian, and no one else. And try this on for size: If a person who is not Christian helps someone in need, God actually counts that as an evil deed, because any “good work” done by a non-Christian is as “filthy rags” in the eyes of God.
By the way, I find it telling that in his parable of the Good Samaritan, not once did Jesus say anything about religious affiliation, except to point out the priest who crossed to the other side of the road rather than help the man who lay there beaten and bloody. And wasn’t it Jesus who said, “If you have done it unto the least of these, you have done it unto me”? He never so much as hinted that you had to be “christian” before you could perform acts of kindness.
So for all those posting here who presume to tell us that we are not even close to being Christian, I would suggest doing as the Bible advises: removing the beam from your own eye before trying to take the mote out of mine.



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The Hawk

posted July 7, 2007 at 12:53 am


For all the dumb idiots who think polygamy was all about seduction, lust, and fantasies of carnally minded men — take a look at the photos of Brigham’s wives and tell me which of these women you lust after: http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jay/Brigham_Young/Brigham_Young.html
No offense to Brigham’s wives (or Joseph’s) but there are clearly no gorgeous super-models among the bunch. Lust? Fantasy? Y’all are kidding yourselves.
I think Brigham’s account “it was the first time in my life that I had desired the grave, and I could hardly get over it for a long time. And when I saw a funeral, I felt to envy the corpse its situation, and to regret that I was not in the coffin” now makes a lot more sense.
I’m no expert on polygamy, but I still accept these men as true prophets. I’m glad they had to do it and not me. This does not negate the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, the LDS church, nor the living prohpets on the earth today.



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Terry

posted July 7, 2007 at 2:04 pm


This is a personal note to Joseph Robinson: You need to chill, dude. You are acting as if what I as a Mormon believe is going to have a negative effect on your own personal salvation. I case you didn’t know, typing in all caps is considered yelling, and to me is a sigh of someone who is stressed out, or well on their way to becoming so.
Let me clue you in on something, my friend: though some Mormons have not experienced the strong, negative feelings you have towards us that you displayed in your posts, most of us have experienced it, hundreds of times in some cases. Nothing you said above has convinced me that I need to make a change in my beliefs. Why? Because the biggest mistake well-meaning folks like you make is in thinking that you know MORE about LDS beliefs and doctrine than we LDS do. So you presume to lecture us on what we “really” believe (we’re all a bunch of liars, you know). The second biggest mistake you make is in the fact that you usually have no comprehension about what constitutes official LDS doctrine and what doesn’t. You mistakenly assume that whatever is said or written by an LDS general authority is automatically official church doctrine. Armed with your false assumptions then, you post quotes from early LDS apostles and other general authorities and automatically assume that we are lying when we tell you that the quote(s) are not official doctrine and we are under no obligation as LDS to accept them as such.
Take a few deep breaths before you go into a rant the next time. “A soft answer turneth away wrath”, whereas ranting rarely attracts good people to your cause.
Just a suggestion. :o)
One other thing: you stated above that “THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS OF THE APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST, of which there were MANY COPIES made and circulated amongst THE ORIGINAL SAINTS IN THE FIRST CENTURY, STILL EXIST!” This is just NOT TRUE. We don’t have any of the original manuscripts. None. Zit. Zero. Nada. We don’t even have any of the original copies of the original manuscripts. Nor do we have any copies of the original copies. For someone who encourages us Mormons to Google for whatever information, it sounds like you need to take your own advice.



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TB

posted July 7, 2007 at 2:07 pm


Can any of you answer this in one sentence without running off at the mouth?
Mormons- What constitutes being a “Christian”?
Catholics- What constitutes being a “Christian”?
Baptists (or Evangelicals in general)What constitutes being a “Christian”?
Athiests- What constitutes being a “Christian”?



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sloagm

posted July 7, 2007 at 10:06 pm


Roger Williams, the founder of the Baptist Church in America, concluded the following, shortly before leaving the church he established:
“There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking. (Picturesque America, p. 502.)
Martin Luther said the following: “Nor can a Christian believer be forced beyond sacred Scriptures,…unless some new and proved revelation should be added; for we are forbidden by divine law to believe except what is proved either through the divine Scriptures or through Manifest revelation.”
On another occasion he wrote: “I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it.”
While the Lutheran, Baptist and LDS churches recognize an apostasy from true Christianity, Lutheranism and anabaptists (and antipedobaptists for that matter) finds the remedy in reform, whereas Mormonism (and Roger Williams, and argueably Luther) claims the necessity of inspired restoration, not only for theological purposes but also to reestablish a broken line of apostolic succession and authority.



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Darryl

posted July 8, 2007 at 7:20 am


Geez,
Everyone take a chill pill. While I think there are major differences between orthodox Christian teaching and Mormon teachings (a cursory reading of Doctrine and Covenants as well as the Book of Mormon makes this quite clear–unnecessary to be a Mormon or nonMormon to see this)–I have a lot of respect for my Mormon friends.
We do not believe the same things regarding the nature of Christ or the nature of Scripture. In this sense we are not of the same faith. The God I believe in does not mesh with their description. So whether we want to debate “are you a Christian” becomes somewhat of a quibble with labels. This issue is there is quite a serious difference in belief systems between orthodox christianity and mormonism.
Which of those two systems represent the first century proclamation of Jesus and the apostles is of course where the debate lies. But let’s debate that issue with a little civility, a lot of love, and mutual respect. Do we have to shout over what label someone is using to describe him/herself?
Perhaps the blog isn’t the best place for such discussions anyway. Too many words typed in caps. Let’s sit down for some coffee (for me, no offense to my Mormon friends–I have one who works in a Starbucks), decaf for my Mormon friends–and let’s talk face to face.
Obviously this is hard to do with an on line discussion group. And I don’t anticipate anyone will really do that from here. But instead of screaming on this blog: orthodox christians, meet a mormon and sit down and speak face to face–do a lot of listening, though. And mormons, please do the same with an orthodox christian.



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Georgia Hamblin

posted July 8, 2007 at 12:00 pm


It is a compliment to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and another witness of it’s claim to being the restored Church of Jesus Christ, to say we are incompatible with today’s supposed orthodox christian religion!
The confusion that exists in modern “orthodox” christianity is evidence alone of the apostasy and the need for a restoration of all things spoken of by ancient Prophets of God!
It isn’t any wonder that the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints is attacked, maligned, and falsely accused of being “non-Christian” for if we are as we claim to be, all of the ministers and leaders of other Churches become defensive of their positions, and their livelyhoods are threatened, as their congregations begin to diminish in light of truth being revealed and embraced by them! And if we are what we claim to be, we should not resemble today’s christianity, with all their confusion and diverse doctrines! We are, indeed, trying to unite the children of God, as Ephesians 4:11-15 describes the organization and reason for the Church, and for how long we should be so organized in doing the work of the Lord……
Don’t misunderstand, we believe there is good in all Churches, and we believe they function within the fragments of light and truth which they have held fast to since the days of Reformation, which is additional evidence that not all was well in historic christianity. Many provide the necessary stepping-stones to understanding of the gospel restored in it’s fulness in these last days, in preparation for the Second Coming of the Savior!
For those who are concerned about Mitt Romney and his religion….look at the man, his integrity, his accomplishments, his devotion, his goodness……he has much to offer in skills and abilities, and truly is a breath of fresh air!



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Georgia Hamblin

posted July 8, 2007 at 12:30 pm


The joy of being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints, is not in being defensive, but in knowing it was restored for the benefit of all who would embrace it…..just as Christ was maligned, spat upon, denied, and accussed falsely…..His Church, as restored to the earth today, is experiencing the same! As the scriptures state…..”and few there be that find it!”
The invitation to understand what we believe is extended to all who are sincerely seeking truth! You do not have to embrace the Church, but it is essential for all who would learn truth, to fully understand what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches! A good, and reliable source for your research can be found at: http://www.lds.org. Any subject, pertaining to the gospel of Jesus Christ, you wish to research can be found there. Get the true facts from a reliable source, and then exercise your faith in God, to reveal to you what is right or wrong, through the Holy Ghost, just as James 1:5-7 counsels!
There is far to little faith being exercised in the world today, faith that motivates us to search, ponder and pray….to find the answers to who we are, why we are here, and where we came from….and finally where we are going when this life is over! “A Marvelous Work and A Wonder” by LeGrand Richards, is a marvelous read!



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Teresa Clark

posted July 8, 2007 at 12:38 pm


I think it mistake, a false doctrine or teaching to let people think if they are clean enough, righteous enough or obedient enough they will get their own planet and be God of that planet. It is egotistical, and somehow takes away His omnipotence.



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Anonymous

posted July 8, 2007 at 10:05 pm


OK, Christian or not, Mormon is not spelled “MORMAN”. Can you people get it right once? You can not even spell the nickname of my religion correctly.



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Terry

posted July 9, 2007 at 12:20 pm


Teresa: There is NO statement anywhere in LDS doctrine that says a Mormon will get his own planet and be a God of that planet. Believe me, I’ve searched for it. If you’ve found such a statement, I LOVE to know the source. :o)



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TallyRod

posted July 9, 2007 at 2:53 pm


Mormons == Christians?
Well let us view history, as has been stated.
First, the numbers:
Number of Crusades began by Mormon Church > 0
Number of witches burned at stake by LDS Church members == 0
Number of witches burned at stake by “Tradtional” Christian Churchs >> 0
Number of books, movies, and songs produced by LDS Church members inducing hate and misunderstanding to fellow men == 0
Number of books, movies, and songs produced by “Traditional” Christian Church members inducing hate and misunderstanding towards fellow men >> 0
Percentage of LDS Church members encouraged to ask God and search canon of scriptures to determine truth of questions == 1.00
Percentage of “Traditional” Christian church members encouraged to ask God to find answers to questions



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Georgia Hamblin

posted July 9, 2007 at 8:57 pm


Christ, our Elder Brother, loved us all so much, He willingly suffered great sufferings beyond our ability to comprehend; physically and spiritually, that we might receive forgiveness of our sins, if we wake up to those things in our lives that require us to obstain from or purge from our behavior, that we might, through the atonement of Jesus Christ, receive forgiveness! Why must we find fault with others, in an effort to elevate our own beliefs or positions? I truly believe it was humility that the Savior taught, humility and faith in Him, and the power of the Holy Ghost to reveal truth to those who can so humble themselves!
I have visited and studied many religions, and found good in all of them….but my search was looking for the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ….not fragments…Seventh Day Worship….a fragmented truth; Baptism by immersion; a fragmented truth; authority being successive…fragmented in that authority is indeed required to minister in the work of the Lord, authority from God, or those who have been ordained by Jesus Christ…..I read of the Reformation, and the words of the Reformers; I have read many things that have transpired in the Catholic Church who claims uninterrupted succession in that authority yet there are no Apostles in the Church today, which indeed was the very foundation upon which the Church of Jesus Christ was built!
I think we need to look at those things that help us to see clearly how doctrines and various churches had their beginnings….then we will understand why the need for the Restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth! Acts 3:19-26….tells of our day and the comming forth of the “times of refreshing” from the presence of the Lord! The fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. Peter, James and John and John the Baptist have returned in their resurrected form and restored the Priesthood of God, which they received from the Lord…….I like the scripture that reads, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you that that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1. What was the gospel preached by Paul and the Apostles?
It was faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism for the resmission of our sins, receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those in authority.
No where was pergatory taught; no where was the worship of Mary encouraged; no where were Cardinals and Popes mentioned in the original Church; no where was infant baptism authorized, which practice appears to deny the atoning sacrifce of Jesus Christ, and indicates a failure to understand what the atonement really accomplished for each one of us! We are born innocent of the sins of Adam and Eve and are not born in sin, but we are born with the ability to sin, once we have reached the age of accountability and are able to reason and choose between good and evil!
Man’s agency is a gift from God, to all mankind who are born to this earth, and this agency is the very means whereby we can, if we choose, can reach our highest potential as we follow and keep the commandments of God! What is that potential? Matt. 5;48 tells us, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” We can become perfect like our Father in heaven, whose “offspring” we are! Acts 17:28 “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring…..”
It is the search for truth, not philosophies of men developed and designed by me without revelation from God! Those who deny the heavens are sealed, and there can be no more revelation from God, deny themselves access to the greatest source of all understanding of truth! God is in control, and will reveal himself to whom He chooses, when and where He deems it necessary to accomplish His purposes and to bring truth to His children who walk in darkness at noon day because they know not were to find the truth! Again faith and humility are prerequisite to finding truth, just as James proclaimed: James 1:5-7!



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Terry

posted July 10, 2007 at 1:11 am


At the top of this column, Donny states: “It is dishonest for a person of Card’s obvious education to equate the Book of Mormon and any other LDS doctrine and teaching to that of the Christian community and culture and its doctrines and beliefs.”
First off, I fail to see how equating the Book of Mormon etc. to that of the Christian community’s beliefs is being dishonest. Dishonest would be if Card was lying about what he believes, and I don’t believe for a moment that he is. As a Mormon, I also place the Book of Mormon and other LDS doctrine and teachings on the same level with what is contained in the Bible. Does that make me dishonest, even though I sincerely believe what I just stated? I think a more appropriate wording of Donny’s paragraph would have been, “I think Card is in error when he equates the Book of Mormon…” etc., etc. THAT would have been a more honest statement on Donny’s part, rather than to accuse Card of dishonesty merely for stating a honest belief.
On more item: In the last paragraph, Donny pleads: “Be proud and be bold dear Mormons. But please, for honesty’s sake, do not call your religion “Christian” in any way or context.”
“Dear Donny,
As long as you continue to express your personal beliefs (as you have every right to), I–as a Mormon–will continue to express my personal beliefs (as I have every right to).”



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Clayton

posted July 10, 2007 at 3:49 am


There are too many divergent topics to discuss, so let me just suggest some good websites.
http://www.mrm.org (Watch the Jesus Christ / Joseph Smith video) http://www.exmormon.net
I invite you all to open your hearts to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Try studying the scriptures and don’t let tradition cloud your judgement; let the holy spirit guide you.
May God be with you all.



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Terry

posted July 10, 2007 at 8:30 am


Clayton….right on about letting the Holy Spirit guide. That’s the exact promise the Book of Mormon makes to those who read it with an open heart and mind, then pray about it’s truthfulness. “And if ye shall ask with a SINCERE heart, with REAL intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it unto you by the POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” That’s exactly what I–and many other LDS–have done. It truly is a life-changing experience.
I pray that the Lord will bless you in your search for the truth.



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cha

posted July 10, 2007 at 9:02 am


When Mormonism was made up about a hundred years ago they went through great pains to differentiate themselves APART from Christians; today they try to call themselves Christians as to appeal to mainstream America as another brand of Christianity when in reality everything about it is in exact opposition to the Bible.
Jesus was NOT the brother of Satan. Satan is the enemy. Man cannot become a god — that was the fall of Satan to think himself to be as good as or better than God and it was the fall of man in the Garden of Eden for Adam and Eve to think they knew better than God. The exact opposite of the Truth! God was NEVER a man that became a God. The Bible says that God is, was and ALWAYS WILL BE God. He is the Beginning and the End. God never changes. The Truth never changes, but why is it that the Book of Mormon keeps changing every few years? The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ as your saviour; not trying hard to be “moral” and wholesome. Righteousness is filthy rags.



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Truth

posted July 10, 2007 at 9:12 am


“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” –God (Rev. 22:19)



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Anonymous

posted July 10, 2007 at 11:19 am


What I find very interesting, and in a sense offputting, about Mormon theology is the science “fictionish” flavor. God (who in the imaginations of millions of individuals including me, is a vast, universal, all-powerful entity who created the physical universe, or multiverse according to some scientists nowadays) lives physically on a planet somewhere called Kolrobe or whatever, with WIVES? And all the Mesoamerican history as described in the Book of Mormon itself has at its base that science fiction basic of extrapolating from what is known or accepted to create something new. Science fiction, at which Mr. Card excells, has traditionally extrapolated to give us imaginary views of possible futures, but even more interesting in the case about LDS beliefs, also found alternative history stories popular and lucrative. In my view the Book of Mormon is another, and not even a very good fictional alternative history, which in fact some people claim Smith plagerized from another work of prehistory science fiction popular in his day.
Another interesting fact is that a great long list of very good science fiction writers comes from an LDS background. (Check it out at this link: http://www.mormonstoday.com/001027/A2MormonSciFi01.shtml)
I have long speculated that their upbringing as Mormons both encouraged (required?) them to stretch their heads around scientific implausibilities AND to exercise their imaginations. Nothing wrong with imagination — but to claim that one’s religious denomination is the ONLY revealed source of All Truth, Goodness and Light in the Known Universe To Which All Heads Must Bow and Knees Must Bend, is going a bit far based on one not-very-well-written science fiction prehistory alt story, don’t ya think?



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iaintbacchus

posted July 10, 2007 at 11:59 am


Do you mean implausibilities like transubstantiation and virgin birth? How about a whole world created, complete with a half billion years of fossil evidence in 6 days? Be a little less smug. As Bob Heinlnien once said, all religions look equally silly from the outside.
My suspicion is that is any Christian were to read the Book of Mormon in the same frame of mind in which he reads the bible, with a prayerful, open desire to be given a witness of it’s truth, then that Christian would become a Mormon. This is equally true of the Baghavad Vida, the Koran, Dianteics and several tomes that are only available on sanskrit tablets. The requirement is suspension of disbelief and a desire to draw near to Diety. Stop fighting over religious trivialities and get started on developing your own spirituality. That is what that great one born in first century Gallalee would have told you.



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Terry

posted July 10, 2007 at 3:00 pm


cha: “Righteousness is filthy rags”? I’m going to assume that you didn’t really mean to say that. But in case your statement was intentional, let me refresh your memory about what the Bible says concerning righteousness:
Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. (Matt 5:6)
Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5:10)
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (Acts 10:35)
There’s plenty more in the Bible about righteousness, but I think you get the point.



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Terry

posted July 10, 2007 at 3:06 pm


Truth quotes: “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” –God (Rev. 22:19)
First off, God did not say that, John the Revelator did as a warning to those who would make copies of his original text. He was telling them not to mess with the wording, not to leave anything out, and not to add anything to it. His admonition applied only to the Book of Revelation (remember that the Bible as a book was not in existance yet). Even the Bible admits that it contains only a small part of what Jesus said and did.



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sam

posted July 10, 2007 at 3:53 pm


HEY,HEY,HEY!
My Western friends, don’t even bother to argue with these people.Having lived in the old South for most of my life, and having attended their “vacation Bible Schools” as a child, I can tell you that these “born again Christians” are so mezmerized by the preachers of their faith that the majority of them dont even know what they believe, much less any LDS doctrine, this is obvious as you read almost all of the above entries. They are taught from an early age to all but worship the Bible and not question it!
Hypothetical situation: Christ stands on the right hand of a typical babtist, and the “bible” sits on the left. The Savior teaches something that just happens to have never been mentioned in the bible. RESULT— The “Christian” must search the word to see if the Savior is being accurate in his teachings!——- MY POINT—- It’s all about the infailable and absolutly perfect and literal “word” which was written by the hand of God himself and dropped down through the clouds into the hand of king James himself. Never mind personal inspiration. never mind common sense.It’s about the preacher,the book, and the $.



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iaintbacchus

posted July 10, 2007 at 4:10 pm


“Another interesting fact is that a great long list of very good science fiction writers comes from an LDS background.”
This is a pretty thin association. Mormons also have a more than average share of doctors, lawyers, and polititions. In a country of 300 million with only 100 senators 4 that I know of are LDS. Including the junior Senator from Oregon, a fairly progressive state. Mormons believe in education and run to professionals and small buisnesspeople.
And as “proof” you site single 7 year old newspaper article from a web site that specializes in dumping on Mormons. It isn’t even accurate. Zenna Henderson was no longer a Mormon when she was first published (in the 50s, not the 70s)and the language she uses in describing religion, which she does a lot, is more consistant with Methodism than Mormonism.



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Clayton

posted July 10, 2007 at 5:52 pm


Terry (and all who have eyes to read),
I have investigated sincerely and spoken to members of the LDS Church who are family members, friends, as well as missionaries and have watched videos, reviewed websites, and read Mormon scriptures in search of the truth in it.
Each time I read these scriptures I pray to the Lord (often on my knees) with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, and He has invariably manifested to me the falsehood of the Gospel of the LDS Church by the power of the Holy Ghost.
I KNOW that Jesus Christ is my Savior and that He lives. I KNOW that salvation is by grace and not by works that I have done myself (Eph 2:8-9). I KNOW by the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the gospel of the LDS church is the other gospel warned of by Paul in the first chapter of Galatians.
“Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.” Gal 1:7
It is that same perverted gospel of the Catholic Church, Islam, Jehovah’s Witnesses and so many other religious organizations; it is the gospel that pairs the grace of Christ with your own works and has no guarantee of knowledge of salvation. These religious entities insist that there is no salvation outside of them just as the Mormon Church does.
It leaves open the question, “Did I do enough works to earn my way to heaven? No, it is cut and dry; behold the Word of God:
“And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” 1John 5:11-13
Don’t you want to KNOW? The testimony of the Holy Ghost isn’t going to be a temporary “burning of the bosom” as it was once referred to by the missionaries of this adaptive religion but has been avoided in recent times. The testimony of the Holy Ghost is a constant companion that brings peace; what is this supernatural feeling that you may have felt at some point in the past? What is the testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith? Let’s go to the Bible for an answer:
“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be accoding to their works.”
Satan does not call his churches by his own name, but by the name of Christ.
I do works for God out of my genuine desire to do His will (Eph 2:10). My works and the genuine desire to do them evidence my salvation but they don’t give me salvation; the grace of my Lord is sufficient. Each work I do for Him is an investment in heaven and lays up treasures for me where moth and rust doth not corrupt, but they don’t contribute to my salvation.
May the Holy Ghost guide and direct you and answer all of your quetions,
Clayton E. Bennett
P.S. I speak the truth to you in love and I pray that you consider it. Again I implore you to investigate some valuable resources that lay out the truth plainly.
http://www.mrm.org (Jesus Christ / Joseph Smith video)
http://www.exmormon.net
The Holy Bible (King James translation)



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GB

posted July 10, 2007 at 6:14 pm

Clayton

posted July 10, 2007 at 6:16 pm


Quich correction: Obviously Islam doesn’t believe in the grace of Christ, but they do claim the god of Abraham and, quite distinctly they insist on salvation by works. Even Mohammed who claimed to pray to Allah 70 times a day stated that even he didn’t know if he would go to paradise.



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Clayton

posted July 10, 2007 at 6:17 pm


Quich=Quick



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Terry

posted July 10, 2007 at 8:11 pm


Clayton…in your latest post you state: “Each time I read these scriptures I pray to the Lord (often on my knees) with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, and He has invariably manifested to me the falsehood of the Gospel of the LDS Church by the power of the Holy Ghost.”
With all due respect, I do not accept that you had a manifestation from the Holy Ghost about the “falsehood of the Gospel of the LDS Church”, as you put it. If you are like most anti-Mormons whom I’ve had discussions with, your claim of a witness from the Holy Ghost was actually you going to the Bible, finding something that–in your opinion-disagreed with the Book of Mormon, and taking THAT as a manifestation from the Holy Ghost. A witness from the Holy Ghost is a DIRECT revelation from God to YOU, as the Holy Ghost is God’s witness for the truth. The exact experience is hard to put into words, but anyone who has had the experience of a witness from the Holy Ghost will know exactly what I’m talking about.
Another thing I wonder about is why you supposedly continue praying about the truth of the Book of Mormon if you’ve had a “manifestation” from the HG that it’s false? Shouldn’t ONE manifestation be enough to convince you? Claiming multiple manifestations from the HG is no more convincing to LDS than couching your persuasions in familiar sounding LDS terms, e.g. “I pray to the Lord…with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ…” That was straight from the Book of Mormon. I suspect that the familiarity of the wording is suppose to place doubt in the minds of Mormons as to the genuiness of the witness we’ve received from the Holy Ghost about the truthfullness of the Book of Mormon. If that was your intent, I was not moved.
Another fact you don’t seem to understand is that the Holy Ghost does not lie. If the Book of Mormon is true for one, it’s true for all. Millions of people have applied the promise in the Book of Mormon, reading it and actually praying sincerely AND SPECIFICALLY as to it’s truth. That’s why they are memebers of the church today.



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Clayton

posted July 10, 2007 at 11:39 pm


Terry,
It wasn’t the Holy Ghost that lied to you. Was it Satan or one of his angels? God knows. The fact that millions believe doen’t convince me. The fact that billions have through the years believed the Catholic lie or the Islamic lie doesn’t convince me either; I rely on the Holy Ghost. I have been imbued by the Spirit of God becuse of my faith in Jesus Christ’s divinity and atonement on the cross and I always have a connection with God through it.
That first experience of the comforter upon my salvation was undeniable and hard to put into words… I prayed with faith for Jesus to come into my heart as He stood at the door knocking (Rev 3:20) and opened the door and He came into me. I was clean, I was saved and sure. The Holy Ghost has manifested many things to me through dictates of conscience and I know that He is with me.
The reason that you can’t believe the Holy Ghost constantly speaks to me is because you don’t know what it’s like to have Him in you. You only felt that false feeling that the so-called “stick of Joseph” was true once, right? After all, you stated, “Shouldn’t ONE manifestation be enough to convince you?” Well I tell you friend, you can have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion if you only have true faith in the atonement of Christ and open the door to the true Christ.
Let me tell you a story which is very similar to the story of one James Covill. He was a man who was well-versed in the scriptures as he had been a baptist minister for about 40 years. He had been fooled by the charisma of the false prophet Joseph Smith and I believe that he had that spiritual experience of which the Mormons speak that prompted him to accept the doctrines as laid out by this man. It all just seemed to make sense, that is until he re-evaluated things and realized that the church was of the devil. Doctrine and Covenants 40, which is to explain away D&C 39, states that he was tempted by Satan and that is why he returned to his former principles, but I say that it was the Holy Ghost showing him how he had been deceived that led him to return to his true beliefs.
I had a conversation with a mature and devout member of the LDS Church which I initiated by talking about my faith in Christ. He brought up the Book of Mormon and proceeded to give me his testimony regarding it. I don’t remember what it was that convinced me, but it was as if something had clicked and it all made sense. I would say that it was the spiritual experience that Mormons tout so much as that moment that they “know” that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true. When I began to read the Book of Mormon, though, it stopped making sense, the Holy Ghost was speaking to my conscience and showing me how it is contradictory to the Bible. I continued to research and contacted the missionaries but that one-shot experience that was given to me by demonic power had passed and God made it clear to me that Mormonism is not true.
Your own missionaries have told me to just keep trying, keep reading and praying and I will get that witness. Did I truly pray as instructed in Mononi 10:4? Yes. Have I prayed on multiple occasions? That is what LDS believers invariably instruct me to do; to keep going until you know that it is true. Well, Satan had his shot and God won’t allow it again. The doctrine at one point seemed to make sense and not be contradictory to the Word of God, so I investigated its validity but I never did deny my true salvation through Christ, though, so I never turned from my own belief. You will never get a true born again Christian to deny his faith in God’s grace and accept the doctrine of salvation through grace and works.
I cannot force you to accept the truth, I can only proclaim my testimony that Jesus is the Christ and that He lives in me and can live in you if you accept His atonement once and for all on the cross for all of your sins. Salvation is not through a church but through Christ.
“God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
God doesn’t lie; you can KNOW that you have eternal life if you have the Son of God. I pray that you see that it is but by Jesus and not of ourselves; it is not by works and grace but by grace alone.



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R. Biddulph

posted July 11, 2007 at 10:01 am


The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion . . This post helps to clarify such misconceptions
• Baptism: .
Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. http://www.imj.org.il/eng/exhibitions/2000/christianity/ancientchurch/structure/index.html
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles. . Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and not allowing non-Christians to witness them
• The Trinity: .
A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?
The Nicene Creed”s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. . The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: “There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one.”
Scribes later added “the Father, the Word and the Spirit,” and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. . . .He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. .
Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit. . Divinization, narrowing the space between God and humans, was also part of Early Christian belief. . The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views the Trinity as three separate divine beings , in accord with the earliest Greek New Testament manuscripts.
• The Deity of Jesus Christ
Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS), Jesus is not only the Son of God but also God the Son. Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 percent of American Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists (28 percent of Episcopalians) agreed that Jesus was “without sin”, 70 percent of Mormons believe Jesus was sinless. http://www.adherents.com/misc/BarnaPoll.html
• The Cross and Christ’s Atonement: .
The Cross became popular as a Christian symbol in the Fifth Century A.D. . Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) believe the proper Christian symbol is Christ’s resurrection , not his crucifixion on the Cross. Many Mormon chapels feature paintings of the resurrected Christ or His Second Coming. Furthermore, members of the church believe the major part of Christ’s atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane as Christ took upon him the sins of all mankind.
• Definition of “Christian”: .
But Mormons don”t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christian”. . They believe Christ’s atonement in Gethsemane and on the Cross applies to all mankind. . The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”: . All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him divine, and the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. They all worship the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and address Him in prayer as prescribed in The Lord’s Prayer.
It”s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be authentic Christians. If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology , they are likely more “Christian” than their detractors.
* * *
• Christ-Like Lives:
The 2005 National Study of Youth and Religion published by UNC-Chapel Hill found that Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit these Christian characteristics than Evangelicals (the next most observant group):
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LDS . . . Evangelical
Attend Religious Services weekly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71% . . . . 55%
Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life –
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . extremely important .. 52. . . . . . . 28
Believes in life after death . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 76 . . . . . . 62
Believes in psychics or fortune-tellers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . 5
Has taught religious education classes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42 . . . . . . 28
Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline . . . . . . . . . . . 68 . . . . . . 22
Sabbath Observance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 67 . . . . . . 40
Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith . . . . . . . . . . . . 72 . . . . . . 56
Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 . . . . . . 19
Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen
(very supportive) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .65 . . . . . . 26
Church congregation has done an excellent job in helping
Teens better understand their own sexuality and sexual morality . . . . 84 . . . . . . 35
Comments to: RBiddulph@Sloan.MIT.edu



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Anonymous

posted July 11, 2007 at 11:57 am


ianbacchus: Did I say I was a religionist? From what are you extrapolating that I am a Christain, or a any kind of believer? Why do you suppose that I believe in any of that? Merely because I question Mormon cosmology and provenance?
When it comes to provenance and believability between the Bible and the BOM, all I can say is that for the Bible there is an actual, physical, historical and geographical record that can be accessed that at least maintains more plausiblity in that the details of the stories match the environment better than those in the BOM: examples are that wheat, barley, advanced metallurgy, wheeled vehicles to mention a mere fraction of the anachronisms, all appear in the BOM without any physical evidenct left to show that. Whereas the Bible references places and things and environmental details that are consistent with physical and historical and objective fact. As to the miracles and other scientific implausibilities of the Bible, I am not claiming to believe them.
I understand that often Mormon evangalists ask that a person use how he or she “feels” when reading the BOM and using that as a determination of its truth. Shakey way to determine facts, INMO. Of course when it comes to religion and other personal matters, so what if folks use that method to determine truth? Fine with me. The danger is that such fuzzy truth detection can too easily become a habit that slops over into the “real” world and clouds judgement. I sure would not want, for example, the jury in a trial in which I was being charged with a murder to go just upon how they “feel” about it, especially if I were innocent and the evidence proved that innocence but the jury was so busy “feeling” that I was guilty. . . See the problem there?
There is a real problem with how religion, any religion, can require a person to shut down true critical thinking skills in order to let belief happen. And the arguments that tradition and scholarship and concensus can make up for an element of belief that contradicts known scientific fact. All the testimony in the world is still not enough for me to be persuaded to leave my good sense and knowledge of physical facts at the church door.
I am open to changing my mind if there is a preponderance of evidence. In my opinion the Bible owns more weight in that way than does the BOM, although I do not believe wholesale any institution’s or denomination’s or church official’s or prophet’s interpretations of the Bible as being “truth”. Much less do I give weight to an imaginative tale that claims complete implausibilities that have no physical anythings supporting it. Especially when that tale, supposedly an actual history dictated by angels, uses pseudo- Elizabethan language (You mean that THAT is the language in heaven — bad Shakespearean?) to create plots and events that could not have logically happened in the time frames given nor with the props provided, all created by a “prophet” with a court recorded history as a con artist. The preponderance of evidence, in my opinion, hammers down on the BOM as being very bad fiction at best and at worst a deliberate fraud created to bring power and glory and social control to a cult leader who was making it up as he went along.
Similar accusations of scientific implausibility, if not fraudulance, can of course be made against all religious scripture of whatever faith, since most of them were created in an ancient past that had even less access to modern scientific knowledge than did Joe Smith. If one looks at religious writings as being simply myth and wisdom writings designed to help create order to philosophy and illustrate and explain human psychology — how useful and valuable they can be at enhancing and healing the human condition. But when those scriptures are touted as being the only source of revealed truth and that one must take one’s interpretation of them (and live one’s life by them) from one source only and never ask questions — OK, that’s where the feces hit the fan. That is why we need seperation of church and state and why I fervently work to keep that seperation clear and clean — against ANY religion that wishes (or dare I say “plots”) to make their version of truth the only one with power.



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Anonymous

posted July 11, 2007 at 12:55 pm


Also, as to the science fiction writers — even Mr. Card acknowledges the connection. And just because Zenna Henderson no longer practiced her faith at the time she wrote fiction in no way denies its influence upon her. I am a fan of her writings and can testify that her upbringing and former beliefs informed almost ALL of her fiction. In fact, I extrapolated decades ago when I first read her stuff that she was or had been maybe raised in a place like Utah as a Mormon, simply from the tone and the events and the images and plots she created.
Wasn’t it the Jesuits who said of Catholicism that “Give us a child before he is 5 (or 7 or whatever) years old and he will be ours for life?” Well, one can repudiate an institution but the images and beliefs one was raised with can stay lodged in one’s subconscious forever. Ms. Henderson’s work, very clearly is evidence for that.
I suppose LDS don’t like to claim her because her work does a very good job of picturing the evils of superstition and blind belief and backwards thinking and the terrible cost of living hidden, counter-culture lives when the whole reason for hiding and secrets is over. On the other hand, her main characters and heroes very often reflect the concepts I think some Mormons hold of how humans evolve into gods. Her characters have to stay hidden in desert enclaves because they never lost (or relinquished, I guess) certain godlike knowledge and powers that earthly humans no longer have (or should never have had on earth or whatever) and are persecuted just as Mormons were persecuted in their early days. So many of the elements of her writing resonate with Mormon overtones, even if never actually mentioning Mormonism. As to whether or not her ideas where heretical or orthodox LDS, I would not know.
As a fan of science fiction and a great reader of it since 1965, I cannot help but see how the Mormon “backstory” as it were, sounds so much like a lot of American SF sfuff. I don’t see that as an insult, nor intend it to be. Great literary traditions have arisen before when inspired by religious belief and emotion, for example the whole tradition of knightly love and courtly romance and the search for the Holy Grail, is a literary tradition of imagination using religious ideas and images that built up over hundreds of years. Nothing wrong with that; in fact it is a great and valuable body of work.
But of course, those who need to see the BOM and the Mormon church as based upon the revealed word of God and as the only one, would be insulted when someone sees science fiction in it. I probably should have mentioned all the science fiction elements in the Bible and in Hindu cosmology also. Since religion uses magical stories and vivid imagery to carry messages, there will be elements that seem fantastical and or fictional. Perhaps the Mormon use of those kinds of elements is just modern enough to seem more like SF to me than to more primitive fantasy like the Great Flood myths, etc. of more ancient writings.



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Daniel Thurot

posted July 11, 2007 at 1:04 pm


Looking through the contents of this blog it’s interesting to me the mirrors that some of us carry around in front of our faces. As a student of scripture, as a man who left and returned to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (a conversion that was influenced mostly by the Bible and not the Book of Mormon), and as a follower of Jesus Christ, it seems to me that those old mirrors are casting reflections and revealing bigotries with an astounding revelation. I would ask all those who like to shout at Mormons in ALL CAPS to step back and consider the teachings of Jesus Christ. I’m not here to proselyte, nor even to defend, the Church to which I belong. I do, however, wish to point out a couple things that I think are important on the topic at hand (rather than assault or defence of said Church).
First, it is my opinion (yes, I’m entitled to that, and entitled to not be called a “liar” for it) that Christians conduct themselves like Christians. Matthew 7:21 and Luke 6:46 don’t really give us any latitude in not taking literally the teachings of Jesus Christ. If you did what the Savior said, would you be a better person? Of course, so that is what we are all trying to do, ideally. I have a hard time picturing our Savior acting in such a way, or a God who is no respector of persons and who loves all His children as condoning calumny. It is simply not right for one to proclaim lies, even if they think that it is for a greater cause. Now, the response of course is that lies are not being proclaimed, but I declare that they are; most statements about the LDS Church that I have read through have been out of context, incorrect, or yes, lies. Perhaps the ones who posted them here do not realize it, and will certainly have many links to many internet sites to act as second and third and fiftieth witnesses. It does not matter what an internet site with an agenda has to tell us, it does not matter that bigotries and hatred can produce: The religion that I am reading about is unrecognizable as the faith that I belong to.
On the topic of being called “Christian,” I usually don’t try to defend the Church on this one. Besides being inflammatory (as we have seen from this blog), a study of the primitive Church reveals that they were not originally called Christian, but were called Saints. Christian was a term from outside the Church eventually adopted as a sometime-title, just like “Mormon” is not really the name of the LDS Church. Since I do believe that the LDS Church is the restored original Church of Christ, I usually just title us “Saints” and let everyone else do the debating.



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Sogzewalla

posted July 11, 2007 at 1:09 pm


I have scrolled through some of these comments, most of them are trying to make points of who is right and who is wrong. I wonder what the Savior would say about all this squabbling? He certainly had his detractors in his day who were trying to argue their doctrines as well and disprove that he was not the CHRIST. I have spent 45 years studying my “Mormon” faith and for all these 45 years everything I have read, studied and that has ever been taught to me is that we believe in Christ. He is the head of our Church. Our church bears his name – all our doctrines teach of Him. 2 Nephi 25: 26 is one of our teachings
“And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.” I guess if you are trying to be right and prove a biased point that this is untrue you could certainly make arguments to the contrary – as they did in days of old.



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Anonymous

posted July 11, 2007 at 1:54 pm


Daniel, Perhaps the reason the religion you are reading about on these pages is not recognizable to you is because the lies you perceive are not coming from the critics of Mormonism, but from what you have been taught about your church by your church?
Much of what you perceive as “lies” are documented in more places than on the Internet, and many more of the problems some critics see with Mormonism are the errors and inconsistencies contained within its own cosmology and the teachings of its founding fathers. Not that any religion or religious scripture is immune from such inconsistency, but that there are so many of them and that so many LDS are in denial about them. Also, the relative youth of your Church allows greater examination of primary sources than religions based on long-destroyed documents and evidences.
Evidence based on primary sources is very hard to refute, unless one does the practice recommended and ignore the implausibilities and let your heart tell you what is true. Which can work for individuals, but for great, powerful and wealthy institutions to base themselves on untruths, or at least things with nothing tangible but “feelings” and anecdotal testimonies. Awwwwww, it just cannot go unchallenged. Not the individuals, who have the right to believe and live as they choose, but the institution’s claims, because institutions have power and weight and can roll history and society far in many directions: examples — the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust. . .
Please don’t think I am equating Mormons with Nazis — NO! Please forgive me if it sounds that way. What I feel constantly needs challenging is ANY institution that gets so big it creates its own gravity, especially when it’s beliefs and policies are not based on as much varifiable and rational evidence as possible.
In fact, I have no problem with any LDS religious practices or beliefs accept the same one I have with all religions that want to claim inerrancy and unilateral truth as revealed only to them. Most of the Mormons I know or know about are wonderfully virtuous and hard-working and loving folk. Their religion apparently works for them in giving their lives meaning and health and honor — all good things.
All of my criticisms arise from institutionality, so to speak. People living religion that edifies and lifts up and contributes is a wonderful thing. On the other hand when institutions begin to lay down policy that mitigates against health and teaches against the freedom of individual choice and seems to demand belief of factual material it cannot substantiate — therein lies the problem. Teaching “our way only” is your right, but is it right to do?
On the other hand, I believe that those Christians who feel it necessary to attack a system that seems to work perfectly well for millions of people simply on doctrinal grounds are wrong also. It isn’t their business either. Unfortunatly since fundamentalist Christianity and Mormonism both require their believers to evangelize and proselatize — clashes are inevitable, aren’t they? The whole great history of the religions of the Book (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) is awash in intolerance and oppression and hate and separation and differentiation and conflict.
That is the great tragedy of religion, that it can foster hate more frequently than love and encourage oppression rather than let loose freedom. That is what is forcing me away from traditonal religion toward. . . I don’t know what, except I can no longer stand being told to shut my eyes, ears and mouth and simply BELIEVE, no matter what the facts are.
Perhaps that is why this thread is so hot with emotion and opinion — simply because Mormonism is a proselatizing religion and in doing what it thinks is God’s will is creating opposition to itself. Surely your elders have taught to expect opposition to a theology that seems to ask little in the beginning, but later requires greater and greate feats of mental gynmastics in order to maintain belief.



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Patrick

posted July 11, 2007 at 2:07 pm


Warren Jeffs



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B

posted July 12, 2007 at 5:40 pm


Warren Jeffs has as much to do with Mormonism as Jim Jones has to do with Evangelicalism. Actually Jones has more. He was ordained a minister. Jeffs wasn’t ever even baptized in the LDS Church.



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Anonymous

posted July 12, 2007 at 9:46 pm


Brigham Young



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Lori Daniel

posted July 12, 2007 at 9:57 pm


All that a person has to do to know if Mormons are Christian, is to read the temple ceremony (it is available on line) to know that the Mormons do not belive that God created the heavens and the earth, but that two angles did this for him. They are taught that God was once a man, and in this form, make Mary pregnant. They believe in marraige after death, even though Christ taught that there was no marriage in heaven. How can a church teach beliefs that are not in the Bible and yet call themselves Christians. How can a church rewrite what Christ said and call themselves Christians. Why do they teach that Christ’s cruxification was not enough for salvation. They were originally call the Church of Latter Day Saints. Jesus Christ was added to the title to create the illusation that Christ was the head of their church. In the end, only one person will call us forth, and that person is Jesus Christ, not a husband or a man speaking some secret name that his wife doesn’t even know.
Had I known what I learned after just a few years in the Mormon church, I would not have joined. I truly believed that they were Christians, since that is what the missionaries taught me. However, it soon became apparent that this was just a way to bring people in and get them hooked on all the “social” activities. Once they become hooked and can’t image a life without the Mormon church, are they then taught in the temple, the true teachings of the Mormon church.



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nowandlater

posted July 12, 2007 at 10:17 pm


Ummm….obviously you missed the numerous real and symbolic references to Jesus Christ. There is hardly a minute where there is not a reference to that.



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GB

posted July 13, 2007 at 12:21 pm


Lori Daniel, IF you ever were a Mormon, then you certainly didn’t pay attention in church because you exposed your ignorance of LDS doctrine.
IF you ever were a Mormon, why are you spewing typical anti-mormon tripe?



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Heidi

posted July 13, 2007 at 2:54 pm


Okay, This is absolutely the most ridiculous blog I have ever read. I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints my entire life and have been a temple going member for ten years. I can tell you that having been INSIDE the temple and having participated in the sacred work that happens there it is NOTHING like what you say you know so well from reading your online source! How absolutely ridiculous to base your narrow minded and hateful opinions of one of the largest religions on earth on a source that has obviously no idea of what it is talking about!
I will not debate church doctrine with you or any one else- mine or yours. Why? IT’S NOT DEBATABLE. It’s this or it’s that and you are not the author of truth. God is. Ask HIM. You should be ashamed to post this blog and spew out all of these very UNCHRISTIAN LIKE attitudes upon a people who have done nothing but try to serve our God. NO ONE religion agrees on doctrine. Why pick on ours? Says something to me about where Satan wants to lay his distractions. As for your criticisms of Joseph Smith: if you want to base your opinion of a martyr on the tales of his persecutors then you don’t have much common sense and that right there debunks your entire blog. Move on to something you can write about intelligently. If I seem defensive it is out of love for my Savior, my membership in my church and my disappointment in your small minded and un-American beliefs. Use your constitutional right to free speech to bring about good, truth and other praiseworthy things.



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Lori Daniel

posted July 13, 2007 at 10:21 pm


I think that you so called Mormons need to something that your leaders do not teach you to do. Read church history, read about Emma Smith and the ordeal that she had to go through so that Joseph could have many wives. Read books that the church does not approve of. I did study the history of the church, including journals written by church leaders. I know about the history of the church. I know the truth about Joseph Smith and I do know what goes on in the movie that is shown to temple goers when they receive their endowments. Yes, you are not suppose to discuss what goes on in the temple for fear of damnation. Ask the Free Masons about their ceremonies, and how after a few months of Joseph Smith becoming one, had a new revelation about the temple ceremony. My uncle was a free Mason and a temple Mormon, and he spoke to us about how they were mirrored of each other. There are many truths that the church leaders do not want people to know and I think the biggest lie is that they are Christians. I tried to wear a small cross that I received and I was told in no uncertain terms that Mormons do not wear crosses. They do not think about the crucifixion but more on the resurrection.
Mormons are not the only people going to churches that claim to be Christians. However, they are the ones who teach things that are not taught in the bible, yet have the nerve to put Jesus’ name in the title of their church. Why not just tell new converts about the real teachings, those taught in the temple, right from the beginning so that they can have the whole truth of the Mormon church instead of just what the leaders of the church want them to know. If people having the lessons taught to them knew the truth they would not join and membership would be null.
Ten percent tithe, doesn’t matter if you can afford it or not, because God will bless you with wealth. Well I live in Utah and Utahans, have the highest percentage of bankruptcies in the nation. God gave his only son so that we could have salvation. All your good works are as filthy rags before God. We do not earn our way into heaven by church callings or paying tithe or going to the temple. We, those of us who are true Christians, are given salvation when we accept Christ as our Savior. Good works are a result of being a good Christian not a path to heaven. I wasted, yes wasted, years and years living the “Mormon way of life” believing that I was going to a better place then normal religious people. Well, I learned the truth when I left the church and that is when I was able to stop doing all the “right Mormon activities to get into heaven” and had the time to concentrate on the Bible and my relationship with God.
I am not a Mormon hater, members of my family are still practicing Mormons and I respect their beliefs, but what I learned when I left the church was that I was going to Hell for leaving after learning what was taught in the temple. I knew that leaving would cause my Mormon friends to limit their time around me. I knew that the church teaches that you have to be careful of us non-believers because we might weaken your faith. The Mormon church separates families, it does not join them together. Ask any mother or father that were not allowed to see their only son or daughter married because they were not temple Mormons. How sad that a church would do that to a family. But then we are taught that we should not marry civilly and then in the temple, but go to the temple first.



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Lori Daniel

posted July 13, 2007 at 10:30 pm


GB
I learned a very important lesson from being a Mormon, do not believe what is taught to you each Sunday, but read the Bible alone, not using the Book of Mormon as a companion. Read about how there is no evidence on this earth that anything in the BoM ever existed. Think with your own mind and don’t always believe that that burning in your bosom is the Holy Spirit, remember, that Satan can also make you believe truths that are lies. Use common sense that God gave to you and keep in mind at all times, that God told us that there would be men speaking His words that draw near to him with their mouths but not their hearts. They are known as false prophets.
Also, there is public record of the arrests and trials of Joesph Smith and his claim to be able to find gold and money with his hat and stones. This is truth, documented, not made up by Mormon haters.



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Doug from AZ

posted July 14, 2007 at 12:20 am


Well said Lori.
I am reading many comments by LDS members who are complaining about these “attacks” by Christians without ever giving an answer to the objections stated. Does it matter what “Jesus” we claim to follow?
There is a “Jesus” of the New Age who would have us believe that all roads lead to the same heaven and that you are god. Can someone trust in this “Jesus” and be saved? This “Jesus” would tell you that there is nothing to be saved from!
Consider the “Jesus” of Mormonism. He was a created being (created by Elohim who had celestial relations with one of his many spirit wives), a spirit brother of Lucifer, in a competition with Lucifer to see who would become the savior, conceived by physical union between Elohim and Mary, lived according to LDS teaching, died on a cross to pay whatever is left over after we have done all we could do to earn salvation.
Compare this to the description of Jesus in the Bible: Eternally self existent (not a created being), the creator of all things (including Lucifer), was conceived when the power of the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, was born fully God and fully man, lived a perfect life, gave His life on a cross as payment for sin on our behalf to satisfy God’s wrath and justice, offers us the free gift of forgiveness if we will repent of our sins and trust fully in Jesus.
Now, there are of course many, many more differences and I am in no way making fun of Mormon beliefs (my dad, brother, brother in law and his wife are all LDS), I am just asking Mormons to be honest. Address the things which have been brought up. It might go something like this…”o.k. I will admit, we believe that if we are temple worthy, and get sealed in the temple, and do everything the church tells you to, then we have a chance to be exalted to the level of godhood and will be given our own planet and a multitude of wives, and we will populate that planet and be a “god” over it just like Elohim was once a man but was himself exalted and is god over our earth. And, you orthodox Christians are wrong and we do believe in a Jesus who is far different from the one you believe in.”
Be yourselves! And remember, your church sends out around 60,000 missionaries who tell others (frequently “Christians”) that they have the whole “truth” and that if they want to be in God’s one true church, they will join the Mormon church. These comments are not attacks, they are responses. Just as you might respond to claims from the RLDS claiming to be the “true” Mormon church.



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GB

posted July 15, 2007 at 10:58 pm


Lori: I learned a very important lesson from being a Mormon, do not believe what is taught to you each Sunday, but read the Bible alone, not using the Book of Mormon as a companion.
GB: How did you learn that from the Mormons since they don’t teach that?
Lori: Read about how there is no evidence on this earth that anything in the BoM ever existed.
GB: You are obviously ignorant of the evidence that does exist. BTW What evidence is there on this earth that what the Bible says about the resurrection of Christ is true?
Lori: Think with your own mind and don’t always believe that that burning in your bosom is the Holy Spirit, remember, that Satan can also make you believe truths that are lies.
GB: One who has felt the burning of the Holy Ghost will not confuse it with indigestion.
Lori: Use common sense that God gave to you and keep in mind at all times, that God told us that there would be men speaking His words that draw near to him with their mouths but not their hearts.
GB: Good advise. True, a lot of them have their own church and preach the doctrines of men, mingled with a little Bible scripture of course.
Lori: They are known as false prophets.
GB: Why warn about false prophets if there weren’t also going to be true prophets?
Lori: Also, there is public record of the arrests and trials of Joesph Smith and his claim to be able to find gold and money with his hat and stones. This is truth, documented, not made up by Mormon haters.
GB: Can you provide references so that your claims can be investigated?



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GB

posted July 15, 2007 at 11:50 pm


Doug: Consider the “Jesus” of Mormonism. He was a created being (created by Elohim who had celestial relations with one of his many spirit wives), a spirit brother of Lucifer, in a competition with Lucifer to see who would become the savior, conceived by physical union between Elohim and Mary, lived according to LDS teaching, died on a cross to pay whatever is left over after we have done all we could do to earn salvation.
GB: Can you provide references in LDS canon to back up your claims?
Doug: Compare this to the description of Jesus in the Bible: Eternally self existent (not a created being), the creator of all things (including Lucifer), . . . was born fully God and fully man, . . . gave His life on a cross as payment for sin on our behalf to satisfy God’s wrath and justice, . . . .
GB: Can you provide references in the Bible to back up your claims?
Doug: I am just asking Mormons to be honest.
GB: And I am just asking anti-Mormons to be honest, something that seems impossible for them. It might go something like this;” o.k. I will admit, I use inflammatory language and words to exaggerate and mislead people about the beliefs of the LDS church. I also like to take things out of context or outright lie if it will further my agenda.”
Doug: Address the things which have been brought up. It might go something like this…”o.k. I will admit, we believe that if we are temple worthy, and get sealed in the temple, and do everything the church tells you to, then we have a chance to be exalted to the level of godhood and will be given our own planet and a multitude of wives, and we will populate that planet and be a “god” over it just like Elohim was once a man but was himself exalted and is god over our earth. And, you orthodox Christians are wrong and we do believe in a Jesus who is far different from the one you believe in.”
GB: Can you provide references in LDS canon to back each of your claims?
Doug: . . . These comments are not attacks, they are responses.
GB: If they were responses they wouldn’t use lies.
Doug: Just as you might respond to claims from the RLDS claiming to be the “true” Mormon church.
GB: I sure hope they believe they are the true church. If they don’t then they should change churches until they find one that they do believe to be the true church. And so should you.



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Lori Daniel

posted July 17, 2007 at 2:53 pm


GB
Here is the reference where the church use to teach that Mary was not a virgin.
The Bible says unequivocally that prior to Jesus’ birth, Mary was a virgin. Examine carefully her response to the angel who informed her that she would be “with child”? Her reply is a puzzled “…How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” (Luke 1:34 KJV). The Bible states that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18,20).
In direct opposition to the clear statement of the Bible, LDS Church teaching declares that Mary was not a virgin at Jesus’ birth. LDS Doctrine, as promulgated by the General Authorities of the Church from the beginning to the present day, says that Jesus was conceived by an actual physical act of sexual intercourse between Eloheim and Mary. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:51). Apostle Bruce R. McConkie writes “… Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers…” (Mormon Doctrine, page 547).



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GB

posted July 17, 2007 at 5:32 pm


Nice try Lori but no cigar. The church doesn’t use Journal of Discourses or Bruce R. McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine for official doctrine, and NEVER has. These two references show the OPINIONS of those they quote nothing more. So until you can show an OFFICIAL LDS source you are only quoting some ones opinion.



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GB

posted July 17, 2007 at 5:48 pm


BTW Lori, If you had really investigated the church and its doctrine you would have known that.
So again it calls into question the things you have said.



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Lori Daniel

posted July 17, 2007 at 8:26 pm


GB
The first thing you have to do is step off your soap box and try to keep an open mind to what others offer you in the way of information. You are exhibiting a very true trait of Mormons, which is, close off your mind to those you perceive as Mormon haters.
I am simply trying to give you another view of the LDS doctrine. Even if Bruce R. McConkie’s Mormon doctrine is not official doctrine, he still teaches it. Every conference the leaders of the church stand before the members of the church and teach their own interruption of the church doctrines. By the way, it was used on early on in the church by Brigham Young. Are you saying that just because it was taught early on in the church’s beginning, but is not being taught now, that it is not true? If Young was a true prophet, then anything that he said would be taken for the truth.
You assume that you know all that the church teaches. Ok, this may be true, so how long have you been in the church? How long have you studied the church history, from the beginning of the church being established? You question us, yet provide no valuable information as to your knowledge. I am hoping that you are not simply defending the church with nothing to back it up.
If there is anything that you want to know about the LDS church it is written in the history of the church and in the teachings of the many prophets of the church. It is not hard to find and is very enlighting.
Lori



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Lori Daniel

posted July 17, 2007 at 9:03 pm


GB
These are the answers to the questions that you wanted references to.
The Dead Sea Scrolls affirm what is written in the Bible.
There is a very good web site http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm which explains very clearly the scrolls that Joseph Smith was said to have translated. Remember that you must keep an open mind to what is written. There are people in the world who are very knowledgeable about Egyptian writings that are not Mormon haters. Det. 4:2 says: We should take the testimony of God in his word as he has given it, and not be disposed in any respect to alter it.
Joseph Smith altered Genesis by stating that he translated the scrolls and that it was the Book of Abraham. In reading the book Abraham we can see that Genesis has been altered to a different meaning then in the Bible.
The reason for me leaving the church is as follows. My husband was committing sin. He was not being punished by the ward bishop. I inquired of the bishop as to why he was not being punished, and the bishop and his councilors told me that it is hard for the men in the church to control temptation then for women. I had seen this belief in action with other men in our ward that I knew had committed sins that were punishable by probation or excommunication. I went to the stake president and asked him the same question and received the same answer. My husband was allowed to continue his callings, continue in the priesthood and go to the temple. I find this too much for any person, man or woman, to deal with. There are two set of rules in the LDS church regarding the sins of men and the sins of women. Unless you have experience this yourself, you have no idea what this can do to a person’s beliefs in the church.
I believe that all people should continue to research the church rather they are in or out of the church. I have known of people that write anti-Mormon books because they have become angry at the church leaders. That is not the case with me. Because my brother kept bugging me to go back to the church, since I live in Utah and in the same town as a temple that I felt the need to investigate further in the church’s history and teachings so that I might be able to explain to my brother why I would never be a Mormon again.
I don’t understand your sarcasm as to why I would read books by Mormons and non-Mormons, when trying to find the truth about the LDS church.
This is the information that you requested about Joseph Smith’s trial. As you can see, he was taken into court. Joseph Smith hired himself out as a “glass-looker” — a consultant of sorts — promising to peer in his stone and discern the location of “hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth.” 1 He would then tell his employer the best place to dig in order to find the riches. By doing this Joseph earned a reputation for being a “money digger.” 2
According to contemporary witnesses, Joseph was “gifted” in the use of magic peep-stones. Unfortunately for the enterprising young man, Joseph’s clients often became annoyed when his peep-stone would reveal angry spirits moving the hidden treasure deeper into the earth and far out of reach. At other times the “enchantment” surrounding the treasure would become so powerful Joseph could no longer see in his stone and the search would have to be abandoned. Such was the case when Josiah Stowell hired Joseph to find a mine believed to have been hidden by Spaniards.
After several months of digging, Stowell’s nephew, Peter Bridgman, became concerned that his uncle was being swindled. Peter brought a formal charge against Joseph, resulting in Joseph’s arrest for being “a disorderly person and an imposter.” 3
Existing affidavits reveal that Joseph was engaged in money-digging from the early 1820s until at least 1826. This is the same time period which, in later years, Joseph claimed to have been communing with God, angels and other heavenly beings.
Court records from Chenango County, New York4 evidence that Joseph appeared before Justice Albert Neely for examination5 on March 20th, 1826. The court heard from witnesses and the defendant himself, all of whom testified of Joseph’s use of a seer-stone in attempting (and failing) to acquire buried treasure. The record shows Justice Neely found Joseph guilty, but no penalty was ever administered.
Within a year Joseph eloped with Emma Hale, whom he had met while working for Josiah Stowell. Emma’s father, Isaac, was very upset. In an effort to quell his father-in-law’s fears, Joseph told Isaac that he “had given up what he called ‘glass-looking,’ and that he expected to work for a living.” 6 If this reassured Isaac, his peace was short-lived. Later that year (1827) Joseph claimed to have retrieved gold plates out of the earth and began his “work” of translating what would become the Book of Mormon. The translation was achieved, said his friends and helpers, with the aid of Joseph’s magic, chocolate-colored seer-stone. 7
1. Joseph Smith’s defense statement from Justice Neely’s court record as reported in Fraser’s Magazine, quoted in H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism, 72. A concise and well-documented report of Smith’s money-digging career can be found in Inventing Mormonism, 63-87
2. See Joseph Smith‹History 1:55 for this designation
3. New York law defined “Disorderly Persons” in various ways, including “those who pretended to discover where lost goods could be found.” Marquardt and Walters, 71
4. “State of New York vs. Joseph Smith”
5. i.e., a pre-trial hearing
6. Affidavit of Isaac Hale, Harmony, PA, March 20, 1834, quoted in E.D. Howe, Mormonism Unvailed, 264
7. David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers In Christ, 12; Andrew Jensen, Historical Record, 216
Regarding Mormons not being able to enter the kingdom of God without Joseph Smith:
If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by the Prophet Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him. ”
– 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon quoted
[There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
– Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are… [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—”Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.”
– Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'”
– Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, LDS Church News, June 20, 1998, p.7
In John 14:6 – “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” It is very clear that we do not go pass nor receive any valadation from Joseph Smith to enter into the kingdom of God. He has nothing to do with our going to God. How the church can even say that we must accept Joseph Smith as a prophet in order to enter Heaven is beyond belief, it is very arrogant of the church leaders to teach this to the members of the church. It is a flat out lie.
How we gain salvation: 2 Timothy 1:9 – who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal.
John 20:31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.
Ephesians 2:8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
Also, the entire book of Hebrews tells us about how are saved by grace.
I don’t want to argue with you, I simply am trying to get you to see another point of view.
Lori



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GB

posted July 17, 2007 at 10:20 pm


Lori: The first thing you have to do is step off your soap box and try to keep an open mind to what others offer you in the way of information.
GB: Actually. I could say the same thing to you. You are apparently on an anti-mormon soap box. I have looked at the information you have presented and found it lacking in accuracy. You have implied that you are not ignorant. In either case you have demonstrated yourself to be an unreliable source for practical information regarding this subject.
Lori: You are exhibiting a very true trait of Mormons, which is, close off your mind to those you perceive as Mormon haters.
GB: You have proven yourself to be inadequate to make a judgment about what “a very true trait of Mormons” might be.
Lori: I am simply trying to give you another view of the LDS doctrine.
GB: You have proven yourself to be an unreliable source and your view is much distorted.
Lori: Even if Bruce R. McConkie’s Mormon doctrine is not official doctrine, he still teaches it.
GB: Bruce R. McConkie has not taught anything since the mid 1980’s. From the Preface of Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie (2nd edition) “For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. . . . as is common with major encyclopedic-type works, experience has shown the wisdom of making some changes, clarifications, and additions.” Clearly he is acknowledging that his work is not error free and doesn’t represent official church doctrine. And nowhere in the book does he say or imply that he speaks for the Church.
Lori: Every conference the leaders of the church stand before the members of the church and teach their own interruption of the church doctrines.
GB: True, What they say in conference and is later published by the Church carries more weight that what they say in the books they write. But neither carries more weight that LDS canon.
Lori: By the way, it was used on early on in the church by Brigham Young.
GB: I think you need to clarify that statement.
Lori: Are you saying that just because it was taught early on in the church’s beginning, but is not being taught now, that it is not true?
GB: What particular doctrine are you referring to?
Lori: If Young was a true prophet, then anything that he said would be taken for the truth.
GB: You expose your ignorance about what a prophet really is. ONLY when he speaks in the “name of the Lord” or when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall what he say be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. The rest of the time he is just a very wise man that can be wrong.
Lori: You assume that you know all that the church teaches.
GB: Actually I don’t. I am always learning more. It is you that is assuming that you know what the church teaches and its history and as I and others have shown, you really don’t.
Lori: Ok, this may be true, so how long have you been in the church? How long have you studied the church history, from the beginning of the church being established?
GB: forty years or so.
Lori: You question us, yet provide no valuable information as to your knowledge. I am hoping that you are not simply defending the church with nothing to back it up.
GB: Who is the “us” there? Actually I mostly questioned your sources, which apparently you are having a hard time providing. I am still patiently waiting for them. Apparently it is you (plural) that is having a hard time backing up your claims.
Lori: If there is anything that you want to know about the LDS church it is written in the history of the church and in the teachings of the many prophets of the church. It is not hard to find and is very enlighting (sic).
GB: You fail to mention LDS canon. BTW would that be verifiable church history or that made up by some anti-mormons?



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GB

posted July 18, 2007 at 12:26 am


Lori: These are the answers to the questions that you wanted references to.
GB: I didn’t ask for answers, I asked for references.
Lori: The Dead Sea Scrolls affirm what is written in the Bible.
GB: Again, do you have any references to back up this statement. Not that I disagree with it but I want references.
Lori: There is a very good web site http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm which explains very clearly the scrolls that Joseph Smith was said to have translated. Remember that you must keep an open mind to what is written. There are people in the world who are very knowledgeable about Egyptian writings that are not Mormon haters.
GB: I see that your source is an anti-mormon as well as an anti-Jehovah Witness site. And I see that they have not responded to the responses of LDS apologists. It isn’t a very scholarly site if it ignores criticisms (in the scholarly sense) of their work. Are they ignoring LDS apologists because they can’t refute their arguments?
Lori: Det. 4:2 says: We should take the testimony of God in his word as he has given it, and not be disposed in any respect to alter it. Joseph Smith altered Genesis by stating that he translated the scrolls and that it was the Book of Abraham. In reading the book Abraham we can see that Genesis has been altered to a different meaning then in the Bible.
GB: You are purposely confusing “the Book of Abraham” with “the Book of Genesis”. Last I looked my KJV book of Genesis (written by Moses) had not been altered by Joseph Smith. No where is the Book of Abraham claimed to be written by Moses. Again you are being deceptive here.
Lori: The reason for me leaving the church is as follows. My husband was committing sin. He was not being punished by the ward bishop. I inquired of the bishop as to why he was not being punished, and the bishop and his councilors told me that it is hard for the men in the church to control temptation then for women. I had seen this belief in action with other men in our ward that I knew had committed sins that were punishable by probation or excommunication. I went to the stake president and asked him the same question and received the same answer. My husband was allowed to continue his callings, continue in the priesthood and go to the temple. I find this too much for any person, man or woman, to deal with. There are two set of rules in the LDS church regarding the sins of men and the sins of women. Unless you have experience this yourself, you have no idea what this can do to a person’s beliefs in the church.
GB: Sad story, but the bottom line is your pride got in the way. You chose to be angry with your husband because he hurt you but more especially he hurt your pride. You chose to demand that your husband be made to suffer and you wanted it to be public humiliation. (Kind of vindictive don’t you think?) And when the church leaders didn’t bend to your will and pride, you left the church. So now you are looking for anything to justify your leaving the church. You are trying to “convert” other members of the church away from it, so that in your mind you would be vindicated in your leaving. But sadly for you the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true. And it will continue to grow and strengthen. You can continue to fight against God or you can repent. It is your choice. I hope you chose the latter.
Lori: I believe that all people should continue to research the church rather they are in or out of the church.
GB: I agree, because the honest in heart will find the truth and join it. The rest will either ignore it or fight it.
Lori: I have known of people that write anti-Mormon books because they have become angry at the church leaders.
GB: Wow that sounds like a compelling reason.
Lori: That is not the case with me. Because my brother kept bugging me to go back to the church, since I live in Utah and in the same town as a temple that I felt the need to investigate further in the church’s history and teachings so that I might be able to explain to my brother why I would never be a Mormon again.
GB: So Your mind was closed and you had to find stuff to justify and rationalize your behavior that was governed by your pride and anger. How sad for you. So now you cut and paste anti-mormon stuff were ever you can. But hey at least you didn’t write an anti-mormon book.
Lori:I don’t understand your sarcasm as to why I would read books by Mormons and non-Mormons, when trying to find the truth about the LDS church.
GB: I don’t recall saying anything about books by Mormons or non-Mormons only anti Mormons.
Lori: This is the information that you requested about Joseph Smith’s trial. As you can see, he was taken into court. Joseph Smith hired himself out as a “glass-looker” — a consultant of sorts — promising to peer in his stone and discern the location of “hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth.” 1 He would then tell his employer the best place to dig in order to find the riches. By doing this Joseph earned a reputation for being a “money digger.” 2
According to contemporary witnesses, Joseph was “gifted” in the use of magic peep-stones. Unfortunately for the enterprising young man, Joseph’s clients often became annoyed when his peep-stone would reveal angry spirits moving the hidden treasure deeper into the earth and far out of reach. At other times the “enchantment” surrounding the treasure would become so powerful Joseph could no longer see in his stone and the search would have to be abandoned. Such was the case when Josiah Stowell hired Joseph to find a mine believed to have been hidden by Spaniards.
After several months of digging, Stowell’s nephew, Peter Bridgman, became concerned that his uncle was being swindled. Peter brought a formal charge against Joseph, resulting in Joseph’s arrest for being “a disorderly person and an imposter.” 3
Existing affidavits reveal that Joseph was engaged in money-digging from the early 1820s until at least 1826. This is the same time period which, in later years, Joseph claimed to have been communing with God, angels and other heavenly beings.
Court records from Chenango County, New York4 evidence that Joseph appeared before Justice Albert Neely for examination5 on March 20th, 1826. The court heard from witnesses and the defendant himself, all of whom testified of Joseph’s use of a seer-stone in attempting (and failing) to acquire buried treasure. The record shows Justice Neely found Joseph guilty, but no penalty was ever administered.
Within a year Joseph eloped with Emma Hale, whom he had met while working for Josiah Stowell. Emma’s father, Isaac, was very upset. In an effort to quell his father-in-law’s fears, Joseph told Isaac that he “had given up what he called ‘glass-looking,’ and that he expected to work for a living.” 6 If this reassured Isaac, his peace was short-lived. Later that year (1827) Joseph claimed to have retrieved gold plates out of the earth and began his “work” of translating what would become the Book of Mormon. The translation was achieved, said his friends and helpers, with the aid of Joseph’s magic, chocolate-colored seer-stone. 7
1. Joseph Smith’s defense statement from Justice Neely’s court record as reported in Fraser’s Magazine, quoted in H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism, 72. A concise and well-documented report of Smith’s money-digging career can be found in Inventing Mormonism, 63-87
2. See Joseph Smith‹History 1:55 for this designation
3. New York law defined “Disorderly Persons” in various ways, including “those who pretended to discover where lost goods could be found.” Marquardt and Walters, 71
4. “State of New York vs. Joseph Smith”
5. i.e., a pre-trial hearing
6. Affidavit of Isaac Hale, Harmony, PA, March 20, 1834, quoted in E.D. Howe, Mormonism Unvailed, 264
7. David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers In Christ, 12; Andrew Jensen, Historical Record, 216
GB: Let’s see reference 1) “Inventing Mormonism” is more about inventing history than researching it. See http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=192
Also see http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2002_1826_Trial_of_Joseph_Smith.html to really find out what happened in that trial.
Reference 2) Joseph Smith History 1:55 As my father’s worldly circumstances were very limited, we were under the necessity of laboring with our hands, hiring out by day’s work and otherwise, as we could get opportunity. Sometimes we were at home, and sometimes abroad, and by continuous labor were enabled to get a comfortable maintenance.
NOTHING about “money digger” in that reverence. Is hard manual labor clearing farm land the same as “money digging”? I think not.
Reference 3, 4, 5 & 6) see above
Reference 7) What part of the information in that sentence came from 7 and what part did the author of your post make up? BTW Who is the author of that little cut and paste hit piece? And where would I find it?
Lori: Regarding Mormons not being able to enter the kingdom of God without Joseph Smith:
If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by the Prophet Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him. ”
– 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon quoted
[There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
– Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
GB: I would have to say, that those statements are true. Without the work of Joseph Smith the authority of God would not have been restored. Without that authority the saving ordinances like baptism could not be performed. Without baptism we cannot enter the Kingdom of God. So says Jesus in the Bible.
Lori: “No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are… [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—”Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.”
– Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
GB: There you go quoting from Journal of Discourses again.
Lori: In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'”
– Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, LDS Church News, June 20, 1998, p.7
GB: I see it is from LDS Church News, Published by the Deseret News. Most LDS folks don’t even have access to the “church news”, and as far as I know, it’s not available online anywhere. So as far as I’m concerned it could just be made up. Besides ten years ago there was an article about my family in the LDS Church News and just like all other newspapers they didn’t get it quite right. The LDS Church News isn’t published by the LDS Church.
Lori: In John 14:6 – “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
GB: I agree with that scripture.
Lori: It is very clear that we do not go pass nor receive any valadation from Joseph Smith to enter into the kingdom of God. He has nothing to do with our going to God.
GB: That scripture doesn’t preclude the statements above in any way.
Lori: How the church can even say that we must accept Joseph Smith as a prophet in order to enter Heaven is beyond belief, it is very arrogant of the church leaders to teach this to the members of the church. It is a flat out lie.
GB: See above. For you to claim that you know more than an authorized servants of God is also very arrogant.
Lori: How we gain salvation: 2 Timothy 1:9 – who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal.
John 20:31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.
Ephesians 2:8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
Also, the entire book of Hebrews tells us about how are saved by grace.
I don’t want to argue with you, I simply am trying to get you to see another point of view.
GB: Those are nice scriptures. You are implying that I don’t believe them. You would be wrong, I do believe them. I just might not believe your interpretation of them is all. BTW apparently you do want to argue otherwise you wouldn’t have posted an hit peice in the first place.



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Lori Daniel

posted July 18, 2007 at 12:27 pm


GB
I feel very sad for you. The truth is out there and you will not believe anything except what the church wants you to believe. Have you ever wondered why the church has a list of books that Mormons are discouraged to read?
There is a very good book about Emma Smith entitled: Mormon Enigma, Emma Hale Smith. This book written by two LDS women was banned from the church’s reading list. Both women were put on probation simply for telling the truth about Joseph Smith. The book references all church documents and Emma’s and Joseph’s journals. I would highly recommend that you read this book, since the church now allows it on their book reading list. The two sisters have since been reinstated to their callings and all privileges of the church.
All that we need to know is in the bible. We do not need any other book to tell us that Christ is our Savior and that only through him will we enter in the kingdom of heaven.
I noticed that you did not respond to the references regarding us having to go before Joseph Smith in order to enter Heaven. This is obviously a teaching that you accept as church doctrine. Anyone believing this is going to be greatly disappointed since God states that only through his son. How can Joseph Smith be of any importance to anyone in their salvation or their entry into heaven?
You choose to believe a book that has no backing of evidence what so ever. Joseph Smith made an extradiaonary claim, yet no evidence to back up his claim. It was convenient for him to say that the plates had to go back to Moroni.
In doing so, no other man could confirm or deny that the plates ever existed. Thereby taking away all proof of the Book of Mormon.
By the way, I never said that the Book of Abraham takes the place of Genesis. I said that if you read the Book of Abraham, it says that there were Gods who decided to create the earth, etc. It alters the beginning of the Bible.
I just want you to know, that I mean you no ill will. I see no point on continuing on with any postings to you since it is clear that you will not accept any offerings of knowledge that I try to present to you.
I hope that someday, Christ will open up your heart, and that you may know that the Christ of the Mormon Church is not the Christ of the Bible, who is our Savior.
Lori



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GB

posted July 18, 2007 at 1:33 pm


Lori: I feel very sad for you.
GB: As I for you.
Lori: The truth is out there and you will not believe anything except what the church wants you to believe.
GB: The truth is out there and I have found it. You have provided nothing to cause me to question what the church teaches. On the other hand you have provide plenty of reasons to question what you teach.
Lori: Have you ever wondered why the church has a list of books that Mormons are discouraged to read?
GB: Except for the fact that the church doesn’t have such a list, such a question would be interesting.
Lori: There is a very good book about Emma Smith entitled: Mormon Enigma, Emma Hale Smith. This book written by two LDS women was banned from the church’s reading list.
GB: Except for the fact that the church doesn’t have such a list that would be an interesting statement.
Lori: Both women were put on probation simply for telling the truth about Joseph Smith.
GB: Can you provide a reputable source for this claim?
Lori: The book references all church documents and Emma’s and Joseph’s journals.
GB: So does the fictional series “The Work and The Glory” by Gerald Lund. So do a lot of anti-Mormon works of fiction.
Lori: I would highly recommend that you read this book, since the church now allows it on their book reading list.
GB: Except for the fact that the church doesn’t have such a list that would be an interesting recommendation.
Lori: The two sisters have since been reinstated to their callings and all privileges of the church.
GB: Can you provide a reputable source for this claim?
Lori: All that we need to know is in the bible. We do not need any other book to tell us that Christ is our Savior and that only through him will we enter in the kingdom of heaven.
GB: Can you provide a reference to support your assertion?
Lori: I noticed that you did not respond to the references regarding us having to go before Joseph Smith in order to enter Heaven. This is obviously a teaching that you accept as church doctrine. Anyone believing this is going to be greatly disappointed since God states that only through his son. How can Joseph Smith be of any importance to anyone in their salvation or their entry into heaven?
GB: You obviously didn’t read my response very well. Perhaps you should go back and read it carefully.
Lori: You choose to believe a book that has no backing of evidence what so ever. Joseph Smith made an extradiaonary claim, yet no evidence to back up his claim. It was convenient for him to say that the plates had to go back to Moroni.
In doing so, no other man could confirm or deny that the plates ever existed. Thereby taking away all proof of the Book of Mormon.
GB: Except for the 11 witnesses who wrote and signed statements affirming the fact that they had seen and felt the plates. AGAIN if you are what you say you are, then you would know this. Also there is this http://mormoncentury.org/www/ContentPages/ArticleComposite.aspx?GID=SDL
Lori: By the way, I never said that the Book of Abraham takes the place of Genesis. I said that if you read the Book of Abraham, it says that there were Gods who decided to create the earth, etc. It alters the beginning of the Bible.
GB: I never said that you said,”Book of Abraham takes the place of Genesis”! Go back and look if you must. The Book of Abraham isn’t in the Bible, so how can it “alter() the beginning of the Bible”?
Lori: I just want you to know, that I mean you no ill will.
GB: Same here.
Lori: I see no point on continuing on with any postings to you since it is clear that you will not accept any offerings of knowledge that I try to present to you.
GB: That is your choice. You have proven yourself to be an unreliable source.
Lori: I hope that someday, Christ will open up your heart, and that you may know that the Christ of the Mormon Church is not the Christ of the Bible . . . .
GB: That is what is called a naked assertion.



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J. C. Fackrell

posted July 20, 2007 at 6:10 pm


I believe the real botttom line for most Mormon detractors in the Clergy is simply a matter of job preservation. Did any of you catch the reference to the Mormon’s LAY (Unpaid that is Clergy?)



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Salitica

posted July 20, 2007 at 10:56 pm


GB and lori
Shut up both of you are getting on my nerves. First off, a prophet is defined by a community, not a godhead. So is joseph Smith a Prophet? To the Mormons he is, is Anton Levey a Prophet, to the Satanists he is. Is mohammed a prophet, to the Muselms he is.
The aregument concerning the Book of abraham brings no interesting facts to the table, it just a bunch of Fundamentalist Christians trying to convince fundamentalist Christians that mormons are not fundamentalist christians. And don’t forget that the concept of “God inspiring” is not limited to a physcical object, but can be inspiring despite the truth of its own nature. Whether or not Joe was actually able to, as a “seer”, to translate an Egyptian scroll accurately is seperate from the point as to whether his VISION was accuarately conveyed.
As for facts of Joe Smith and his happy band of Mormons with the history surrounding them, actual references points should be made and not just the crap off the top of your head.



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Noel

posted July 23, 2007 at 6:39 am


Hello, interesting debate. I only wish someone like Carl Mosser was contributing to the debate. He edited the book The New Mormon Challenge, a series of papers from various Evengalical scholars about Mormon theology and scriptures.
Questions outsiders might ask how come the Book of Abraham papyri had nothing to do with Abraham,how come no archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon (cities like Nephi), how come Smith lied about polygamy while he was secretly praticing it?
The real truth about these “sacred” events and scriptures are out there for people to research and study. By all means check out the defences at FARMS and FAIR, however you still won’t find any compelling evidence.



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Anonymous

posted July 26, 2007 at 11:51 pm


I find a lot of “traditional Chistians” quoting this…
“Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.” Gal 1:7
So lets compare:
How does one get saved according to EV types?
“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved”
What is Christs Doctrines According to the Bible?
Heb 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Lets see the Articles of Faith of the Chrush of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints…
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So I ask you… who is teaching “another Gospel”?



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nowandlater

posted July 29, 2007 at 11:21 pm

nowandlater

posted July 29, 2007 at 11:25 pm


Evangelical Theological Society 1999 Norman Geisler
Beware of Philosophy a Warning to Biblical Scholars
It is refered to in the link above. There are a couple of podcasts on it. It is Norman Geisler commenting on the pitfalls of using philisophy. His many criticisms are very interesting, especially when taken from a Mormon point of view. He is unknowingly supporting the Mormon point of view and strengthens the Mormon identity as Christians.



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SnarlingCoyote

posted August 5, 2007 at 11:32 pm


I keep wondering how rational, well-meaning adults can proudly call themselves Mormon with a straight face and honestly buy into all that stuff in the book of Mormon about the Americas and the American Indians.
It’s just such stuff and nonsense. What would Europeans think if American Indians claimed that they were just palid mutants of OUR ancestors. What if we made up long, silly stories about how the Whites came to be White and lost the true way of our Ancestors?
I have yet to meet a Mormon who, underneath it all, wasn’t weirdly prejudiced when it came to meeting with or talking to a real American Indian, which leads me to the question at hand: how can someone like Orson Scott Card call himself a Mormon? Does he honestly believe that many impossible things before breakfast each day? Does he honestly think that it’s not irritatingly rude to presume that we need a bunch of White people to make up stories about our history and origins and try to pass them off as fact?



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GB

posted August 6, 2007 at 5:45 pm


SnarlingCoyote,
You OBVIOUSLY have not read the Book of Mormon. Talk about PREJUDICED. Before you judge the book you should read it.



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sandra

posted September 24, 2007 at 11:04 am


Are mormons christian? well i used to think so but in the last year or two i have been asking myself that same question. I am baptised LDS and so are my three grown children,i have some very serious health issues now and havent been attending church,and for that reason i have been ignored,or i should say forgotten about in the eyes of the church i am almost 60 years old and single,which doesnt seem to stand well with the Lds standards either.which i dont clearly understand as i dont see how that should make an difference in our heavenly fathers eyes.i was raised babtist,my mother had fourteen children,and raised them all by herself. anyway, just wanted to speak my thoughts thank you very much sincerely, sandra.



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GB

posted September 24, 2007 at 3:49 pm


Sandra,
Your story (if true) is very sad. But there are several things about your post that make me doubt it’s truthfulness.
1) nearly everyone “almost” 60 years old would exhibit higher quality writing skills.
2) IF you are LDS and IF your membership is in the ward which boundaries you live within (ie. you haven’t tried to hide from the church in the past), THEN you would have 2 home teachers, 2 visiting teachers and a Bishopric regularly visiting you at home (unless you have dis-invited them).
3) Being 60 years old and single has absolutely nothing to due with “Lds standards” and every member should know this.
4) You have the gumption to come here and whine about the church, but don’t have the gumption to make contact with your Bishop and ask for the visits mentioned in #2.
That is why I doubt.



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Ed

posted September 25, 2007 at 5:46 pm


Better education in this world will lead to more MBAs and less Morman BSs.



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BCL

posted October 2, 2007 at 3:56 pm


Are you saying that members of the LDS faith don’t value education? Well, you’re mistaken. Check out http://www.jefflindsey.com/BMEvidences.shtml



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OCS

posted October 11, 2007 at 2:23 am


Sandra; Lean on the Lord. It may be time for you to cling on to Him, and not the Mormon Church. It is a false doctrine, and maybe it is the Holy Spirit speaking to you. i feel that GB probably substantiated exactly what you are feeling. i have read other blogs by GB and others and i find them very arrogant, and not very compassionate. If that is how the Mormon Church is, why would you want to stay?
visit some Christian Churches in your neighborhood. Even after one visit, you might be pleasantly surprised at how you may get help. We live in tough times, and sometimes when you need help the most, no one is around. But The Lord Jesus, and The Holy Spirit are. They will carry you through and bring comfort like no one else can.
i want to apologize on behalf of how cold GB sounded, and how uncompassionate and insulting he is. He is the one that sounds pretty uneducated to me. At least he proves he has no class or manners.
Maybe he would be better called BG (big goon), but then i would be lowering myself to his standards.
God be with you Sandra. i will be praying for you.



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Anonymous

posted October 18, 2007 at 6:52 pm


OCS: i want to apologize on behalf of how cold GB sounded, and how uncompassionate and insulting he is.
GB: Very Bill Clinton of you, to apologize for something you didn’t do.
OCS: He is the one that sounds pretty uneducated to me.
GB: LOL, What can I say? I’m just a product of the government education system.
OCS: At least he proves he has no class or manners.
GB: LOL, At least I didn’t resort to name calling or baseless personal attacks.
OCS: Maybe he would be better called BG (big goon), but then i would be lowering myself to his standards.
GB: LOL, If you can’t refute the message, resort to attacking the messenger.



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OCS

posted October 21, 2007 at 12:47 am


To all insulted by my blogs. boy all i can say, is that it seems perfectly fine to say what you want, whether it sounds bad or not, and you feel justified. i state my opinions and verses to back up what i point out to be questioned and all heck breaks loose.
The point of a blog is freedom of speech. If you don’t like to get feedback, i suggest you say nothing. i am stating what i believe to be true, the same as many mormon bloggers. i have no ill will to people i don’t even know. that would be silly. But i assure you all i am very educated, it is more that i seem to get under a mormons skin. Calling names over and over is not doing anything for the religion you claim to be so loving and great. i would defend anyone that comes on this blog and gets an earfull back, especially like that above. Don’t you think it might be even a little insulting to say a 60 year old would have better writing abilities so it is possible not all is true? That is okay, but to defend back is not? What if she is being honest? who are you to pick on someone because you think they should be better with words? The ugliness on here is getting out of hand. i have spent less and less time even visiting this site because of it’s outlandishness. i again will repeat, i have no ill will, rather concern. There are a lot of people that do not know The Lord, but to try to teach someone a convoluted and changed explanation of what Christianity has been all these years, saying the church (meaning otc’s) apostated itself (isn’t that just as insulting as calling Mormonism a cult to most Christians?) is putting more sin on the heads of innocents. Will they be held accountable, or the ones teaching it? Who is to say but God Himself?
i know the Bible, i have been saved for many, many years. i love the Lord Jesus, and i will defend the Holy Bible, for it is my right. And i believe Christ when He tells us that we are the blessed ones.
i wish all Mormons well, you are human beings and deserve respect. Don’t read disrespect falsely and only one sided.



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Anonymous

posted October 22, 2007 at 4:13 pm


OCS: i have been saved for many, many years.
What were you saved from? What does it mean to be saved? What do you have to do/say/think/believe to be saved?



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SANDRA

posted October 22, 2007 at 7:17 pm


YOU ARE SO WRONG ABOUT THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS.
WE ARE WITHOUT A DOUBT CHRISTIANS, AND CHRIST STANDS AT THE HEAD OF HIS CHURCH. WE WERE NICK NAMED MORMONS BECAUSE OF THE BOOK OF MORMON. MORMON WAS A PROFIT OF GOD WHO LIKE ABRAHAM AND MOSES WAS TO KEEP A RECORD OF HIS LIFE HERE UPON THE EARTH. THE BOOK OF MORMON GOES HAND IN HAND WITH THE BIBLE THEREFORE HELPS US TO UNDERSTAND EVEN MORE ABOUT THE BIBLE. I LOVE MY FATHER IN HEAVEN AND HIS SON JESUS CHRIST WITH MY HOLE HEART AND THAT MAKES ME A CHRISTIAN.
I AM SORRY YOU FEEL THERE IS A NEED TO LABLE ME AND ALL MEMBER’S OF OUR CHURCH AS NON CHRISTIANS. WE DO NOT DISPUTE YOU AND YOUR CHURCH WE GIVE YOU YOUR FREE AGENCY TO CHOOSE HOW YOU WORSHIP. WE WOULD LIKE THE SAME AGENCY TO CHOOSE HOW WE WORSHOP. I DO KNOW WE ARE ALL OUR HEAVENLY FATHER’S CHILDREN HE LOVES EACH ONE OF US, NO MORE OR NO LESS THAN THE OTHER. HE IS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT OUR PROGRESSION HERE ON EARTH. JESUS LOVED EACH OF US SO MUCH, HE GAVE HIS LIFE FOR US, THAT THROUGH HIM WE CAN RETURN TO LIVE WITH OUR HEAVENLY FATHER AGAIN. I PRAY THAT YOU WILL TAKE THE TIME TO PRAYERFULLY READ THE BOOK OF MORMON THAT YOU MAY HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF IT’S TRUTHFULNESS. SINCERELY, SANDRA



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OCS

posted October 26, 2007 at 2:23 am


So Sandra; are you now taking back what you had to say about the Mormon Church? i am assuming you are the same Sandra that posted first and i responded to.
Sorry if i misinterpreted your blog. i have heard many LDS say the same thing along the same lines. That is; where are they when i need them? Maybe different congregations do different things, i don’t really know.
i just felt that you were being responded to in a unfriendly way, and not very Chritian like. If you are okay with that, forgive me. i didn’t mean to get in the way. And i certainly didn’t mean to step on your belief. i respect your belief, even though i do not agree.i have learned alot in these blogs, and having compassion and trying to understand another’s beief is part of all.
Take Care, and God Bless, OCS



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OCS

posted October 27, 2007 at 10:48 pm


To the anonymous poster of Oct. 22, asking what i was saved from?
What do you think Salvation in Christ is? We are saved from the original sin of Mankind, Adam and Eve’s transgression. It seperated us from God, so He sent His only Son, Jesus Christ to save us from our own sins, because nothing we do on our own is enough. You ask what do you have to do, think, say or believe to be saved.
Well, you first have to admit you are a sinner and need Jesus to come into your life. Then you ask Him into your heart. You need to be sincere too. Christ died on the cross to save you. He died because God loved us so much, He sent His only begotten Son, That whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16. Then you have to truly believe you are saved, that His blood is enough. His blood is sufficient for us. When we are weak, then He is made strong. Meaning: We realize how much we need Jesus in our lives when we are weak, and that is what God really wants. He wants us to realize our need for Him in our lives. We need to trust in Him and believe like a child depends on their parent to take care of them. We are not supposed to lean on our own understanding, but trust in the Lord in all things.
It is all in the Holy Word. Just pick up a Bible, look in the Concordance, and you will find what you are looking for. All who seek shall find Him.
These are the very main principles by which most Christians believe. To think that as men we can possibly be as God, is thinking like a human. Not a Christian. i disagree with a lot of doctrine of the Mormon church, and no amount of convincing is worth the time on me, to try and make me think like a Mormon. i respect people in their own beliefs, we all need to find our own way. But i cannot accept what i read on these blogs as the truth. There is no forewarning in the Bible, and after 1800 years, and the reputation of the founder, it is just not sounding reliable to me.
It makes it so much easier to say things like, ” It doesn’t say they are not brothers” to back up a lie. It is a manipulative move. Not a truthful one. There is so much doctrine to back up who satan is, i am surprised that someone could say something like that. The book of Mormon was written by one man. the Bible was written by many and at different times. It was divinely inspired. How can one bet his soul that one man was right about a vision he reports he had, that goes against the very fiber of Christianity? i guess i don’t trust men, i trust Christ. i trust the Holy Word of God. OCS



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GB

posted October 29, 2007 at 1:03 pm


OCS: Just pick up a Bible, . . . .
GB: As if Mormons don’t know their Bible. Haven’t you been paying attention here?
OCS: These are the very main principles by which most Christians believe.
GB: I seriously doubt that most Christians believe that. I don’t think the Catholics believe that, nor the Orthodox. I don’t even think that all protestants believe that. Your appeal to numbers is flawed. Besides an appeal to numbers is a flawed logical approach.
OCS: To think that as men we can possibly be as God, is thinking like a human. Not a Christian.
GB: The Bible says otherwise.
OCS: There is no forewarning in the Bible,
GB: The Bible has many forewarnings of the apostasy. You just don’t want to believe them.
OCS: and the reputation of the founder, it is just not sounding reliable to me.
GB: Should expose yourself to more than just anti-mormon material.
OCS:. . . .to back up a lie.
GB: But it isn’t a lie, and your calling it a lie doesn’t make it so.
OSC: The book of Mormon was written by one man.
GB: Just another false statement made by someone who obviously hasn’t read it and is content in his ignorance.
OCS: . . . that goes against the very fiber of Christianity?
GB: Just another bald assertion. You haven’t been paying attention here on this blog have you.
OCS: i trust Christ.
GB: But do you believe everything He said?



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Gregory A. Swarthout

posted October 30, 2007 at 11:22 am


> But i cannot accept what i read on these blogs as the truth.
You would deny the Holy Ghost his power.
> The book of Mormon was written by one man.
No, it was written by many and translated by one.
> How can one bet his soul that one man was right about a vision he
> reports he had,
Because it is not a gamble at all. God, through the witness of Holy Ghost, could prove this to you but in your arrogance you have turned a deaf ear.
> that goes against the very fiber of Christianity?
No.
> i trust the Holy Word of God
I don’t think that you do, for you discount so much of it to cling to outmoded beliefs.



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Anonymous

posted November 4, 2007 at 10:22 pm


All i can say is that you mormons are something else. i am getting very tired of how you play with others words. You are good at it, but you have no credibility at all. Half of you can’t even spell right, but you think you are so knowledgeable. You say you know your bible, but obviously you don’t. Many Christians on these blogs all agree in how you take things out of context to support your theory. That is all it is too, a theory. If you want to worship a theory, go for it.
Don’t call your blasphemous theory Christianity though, because by any standard it is not. It is like trying to tell someone the sky is really the color green, and for no good reason.
Mormonism has its perks, like godhood, but i guarentee according to Christianity, you will have a big surprise in the end.
Not for me to judge though, i am going by what i believe is the true word of God.



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Gregory A. Swarthout

posted November 5, 2007 at 12:32 pm


> All i can say is that you mormons are something else
Thank you. You are more kind than most of the other “Christ-like” TOCs in this discussion.
> i am getting very tired of how you play with others words. You are
> good at it, but you have no credibility at all.
I am glad that you agree that all talk is just talk and that opening yourself up to the Holy Spirit is the only way to true knowledge about God’s plan.
> You say you know your bible, but obviously you don’t. Many Christians
> on these blogs all agree in how you take things out of context to
> support your theory.
So you realize that we take them out of the context of the creeds and place them back into their original context. That is well.
> That is all it is too, a theory. If you want to worship a theory, go
> for it.
While we don’t actually worship a theory, we do recognize that it is just a theory delivered to us from our Heavenly Father by the witness of the Holy Ghost. His theory has us worshiping his son, Jesus Christ, as our Lord and savior. We are as glad for this theory as you are.
> Don’t call your blasphemous theory Christianity though, because by
> any standard it is not.
I don’t think God can blaspheme, but maybe you know better than I. If so, I bow to your knowledge. And you are right that we shouldn’t call it Christianity since it would associate us with the “traditional” form which has been perverted from Christ’s teachings and made orthodox through the instrument of time. I think we should remain as Mormons and the TOCs should be Non-traditional Mormons.
> It is like trying to tell someone the sky is really the color green,
> and for no good reason.
I know! That is what we have felt like all along when the TOCs try to tell us that the green sky comes from chlorophyll in the air or other such nonsense. It is good that you and I can both see the sky and know it is blue.
> Mormonism has its perks, like godhood,
But not without effort, lest anyone forget.
> but i guarentee according to Christianity, you will have a big
> surprise in the end.
Yes, I agree than TOCs think that they will one day be able to convince us that the sky is green, but I have read nothing in the scriptures that mentions heaven having a green sky.
> Not for me to judge though, i am going by what i believe is the true
> word of God.
As are we all. Stand firm. Revel in your beliefs.



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anonymouse:)

posted November 7, 2007 at 2:57 am


Gregory; After reading the above, how do you know that you are reading the way Christ meant the word to be anyhow? You speak as though you have a cheat sheet on Salvation, and we all know there is not such thing.
Christians go by what the Holy Bible says, believing what was taught by the men that witnessed what they saw in Christ. Mormon’s go by what Smith says was the new and reformed word of God. All one gets when it is questioned is that Christians miss the point and that Mormon’s get the real picture. It is dangerous in the form of a finite man, to assume that Mormons have the right whole answer.
After 1800 years, to think that God would only give a small group of Americans the “truth” is ludicrous. There is a whole world out there. It backs up the point that Mormon’s are out there in there belief, and kind of arrogant that God would only choose one small group of people, a people not very worldly until many, many years after their so called fact of discorvery, and they would be the chosen ones. What happened to the jewish blood line being the chosen ones? Did that change? Why was a supposed angel called Moroni, never mentioned before, be the one sent, when other angels were named more than once? Moroni does not appear in the Bible once.? Also, Do you know what it means, what Christ’s bloodline was, why they were the chosen ones? If you can answer that, you surely must ask the question about Mormonism.



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anonymouse:)

posted November 8, 2007 at 1:45 am


Gregory; again your mockery is all you have to stand with on this blog. All know, as well as you, what i was trying to say. And all you can come up with is that? Is that as good as you can do considering your motive?
You really don’t see it as blasphemy to question the Bible? Why do you do the unspoken contradictory following of it then? i do not understand how you, and all other Mormons on this blog, could put the Holy word down as fallible, but pick and chose what there is in it that you will believe. Is that because of whoever it is that whispers in your ear, what is right and what is wrong about it? Like maybe this; “You know, Jesus and i are really brothers, but they would not tell you that!” If you are willing to believe stuff like that, then there is no way you can participate in a biblical discussion that would be diplomatic in differences. i for one have tried to respond, and initiate what i write with respect, and not making fun of, or being demeaning at all. Mormons have this image in my head of stiff, suit clad men, with high and tights, black shiny shoes and a tie, trying to present something they are not. Poor souls, they probably think. It is our job to save them, IF they will only listen. And if not, they are rubbish, to be thrown out. If they do not believe they one day could be like Jesus, well, then one day someone else will.
What did satan say to Jesus during the temptation, when he took Him to the top of the city and looked down on the earth and said, “i will give you all this” ? He was saying it was up to him, which was a lie, just as he is the prince of lies. He would even lie to Jesus that it was in his power to give the earth to Jesus. Jesus knew though, didn’t He? What was it He said, “Get thee back Satan. I rebuke you! you shall not tempt God!” satan lost, and he loses in the end. We already know the end of the story. You get to chose which side you are on. You probably don’t know that though because you are too busy with your own universe.
i hope what i just said makes you think. as far as i am concerned, you are on very dangerous ground. It says in the Bible that the only unforgiveable sin is denial of the Holy Spirit. What about that? don’t you all think you might be doing that by changing God’s word?



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Gregory A. Swarthout

posted November 9, 2007 at 12:46 pm


> Gregory; again your mockery is all you have to stand with on this
> blog.
Really? I only mock? Good to know!
> All know, as well as you, what i was trying to say.
That post was yours? It was unnamed.
> And all you can come up with is that?
I chose a different tack. There would have been other ways to respond, as well.
> Is that as good as you can do considering your motive?
What is the motive you perceive?
> You really don’t see it as blasphemy to question the Bible?
If I had the original texts of the Bible, I would not question them.
> Why do you do the unspoken contradictory following of it then?
I’m sorry, what?????
> i do not understand how you, and all other Mormons on this blog,
> could put the Holy word down as fallible,
Because it has been shown to be. I attribute this to men, not to God.
> but pick and chose what there is in it that you will believe.
I believe all but the contradictory parts.
> Is that because of whoever it is that whispers in your ear, what is
> right and what is wrong about it?
He has a name. He is the Holy Ghost.
> Like maybe this; “You know, Jesus and i are really brothers, but they
> would not tell you that!”
Is Jesus the Holy Ghost’s brother? I don’t know. Mike, do you know? I do know that Satan is Jesus’s brother as we are all brothers and sisters to them as well.
> If you are willing to believe stuff like that, then there is no way
> you can participate in a biblical discussion that would be diplomatic
> in differences.
I can be diplomatic, can you?
> i for one have tried to respond, and initiate what i write with
> respect,
You have shown the opposite in the post that I am now responding to. (See the part where you imply that Mormons listen to Satan).
> and not making fun of, or being demeaning at all.
All evidence to the contrary.
> Mormons have this image in my head of stiff, suit clad men, with high
> and tights, black shiny shoes and a tie, trying to present something
> they are not.
What are they not?
> Poor souls, they probably think. It is our job to save them, IF they
> will only listen. And if not, they are rubbish, to be thrown out.
Wow. All I can say is “Wow”.
> If they do not believe they one day could be like Jesus, well, then
> one day someone else will.
Wow again. If this is truly how you see us, then no wonder your opinions about are are so wildly skewed.
> What did satan say to Jesus during the temptation, when he took Him
> to the top of the city and looked down on the earth and said, “i will
> give you all this” ? He was saying it was up to him, which was a lie,
> just as he is the prince of lies. He would even lie to Jesus that it
> was in his power to give the earth to Jesus.
k.
> Jesus knew though, didn’t He? What was it He said, “Get thee back
> Satan. I rebuke you! you shall not tempt God!” satan lost, and he
> loses in the end. We already know the end of the story.
k.
> You get to chose which side you are on. You probably don’t know that
> though because you are too busy with your own universe.
We do know that. Should I point out your snideness here, ye of respectful opinions?
> i hope what i just said makes you think.
Probably not in the way you intended.
> as far as i am concerned, you are on very dangerous ground.
We are on Christ’s side.
> It says in the Bible that the only unforgiveable sin is denial of the
> Holy Spirit. What about that?
You, of all people, don’t want to go there. You won’t take the Mormon challenge and pray about what you read. The Holy Ghost will witness unto you of its truth. But you would deny him and his power.
> don’t you all think you might be doing that by changing God’s word?
We do not change God’s word. Simple.



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Gary

posted November 10, 2007 at 12:44 pm


Anonymouse:
You spout off about how you use the Bible, then you try to support your posistion by your own brand of false logic, i.e. “After 1800 years, to think that God would only give a small group of Americans the “truth” is ludicrous.”
Evidently to you this is ludicrous, but didn’t God originally choose a small group of Abraham’s descendents to deliver the truth? And later, did he not single out Joseph? How many did Christ choose to preach the truth in his time? In fact, the Bible is replete with God choosing a small group, or even a single man to carry on His word when His people were gone astray.
Or are you of those who think that the modern day contingent of God’s church derives it’s authority from the corrupted Roman Catholic Church?



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OCS

posted November 11, 2007 at 10:13 pm


Gary; No i am not a Roman Catholic. I do not know the difference in a Catholics beliefs and a Christian’s. Is there one? do you know?
What i do know is this… i am a born again Christian. i do not look to condemn anyone. i look to understand others beliefs. I do not personally agree with Mormonism based on a few verses that do not match up with their inspired truths. I question who they were inspired by. I do not think that any of my Mormon brothers and sisters are bad people. Actually i believe the opposite. They are the very example of what we should all be like on this earth. That i refuse to argue. That is the one thing i will say that i believe about the Mormon religion that they do right. “right” meaning what Christ will have us do.
The issue i have with Mormonism is this; these people have a fire for the Lord God, but i believe them them to be mislead. That is all. I care for any person i believe to want to seek God’s knowledge, and is being told “how” to believe. I have repeatedly tried to take a human aproach to all these blogs i have responded to, because we are human, and we respond with “finite” answers. That is to say, we do not understand all that God said. Some of His Words are for us to know someday, not right now. But If We Have Faith, And we are with God in the end, then nothing else matters. But, the problem as far as I am concerned, is that Mormons have some false teachings. that is all.
i do care very much about my fellow human beings, and i feel that there is a reason i am on these blogs. I don’t remember right off how i even found them. But i did, and i will not abandon them until they are over.
i have tried to answer every question with a heart that is pure. Not a heart that is about wanting to be right. None of us will actually know what is wrong or right until our being with our savior. I can say that the Bible answers all, as i have found. i have looked deeper into the Bible thanks to these blogs, and for that i am grateful. Some verses i had forgotten, some i had misplaced where they were. Any true believer would be happy about those things. So, It is all good.
Just look back at some of the posts over the last few months and you will get a better understanding of Mormons and Christians differences, and how they are alike also. That’s right, they are not all different. But i will say this. They are different in ways that truly matter. That is the most important thing.
Nite to all my friends on these pages! OCS



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TooMuch

posted November 12, 2007 at 2:46 pm


OCS,
You keep studying the Bible and eventually you will come to the truth. You say it answers all your questions…that’s great! But you must not have very many questions.
What does it say about when a soverign nation can declare war on another?
What does it say about a proper response to 9/11?
What does it say about constitutional government?
What does it say about the proper mode of Baptism? When a believer should start paying tithing? How much? Is that Gross pay or Net pay?
What about stem cell reseach? Cloning Animals ok? How about humans?
What about the Gay Rights? How about medical marijuana? Any thing about Global warming? What about space exploration? Do any of these and many other things matter to God?
Wouldn’t it be nice to have a “living” Prophet, aligned to our “present” day issues who could give us the ‘mind and will’ of God as to our modern day issues, conflicts and dilemma’s? Well, you may not care, but I think God cares a lot about us for said he, ” But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.” Matt. 10:30.
Surely He will not leave us alone to figure these things out for ourselves…and He has not…we do have modern day prophets and apostles!!



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Ender

posted November 14, 2007 at 2:05 pm


How can you possibly base your beliefs on plates that no-one has any proof of ever existing?
I’ve been trying hard to research the Book of Mormon, but why would I possibly believe a single word in there. Words written by a man 1800 years after Christ. Words with no evidence of having any existence prior.
Why would I believe the word of twelve men and only twelve men who said that they saw these plates? Even if the plates existed, how is anyone to know that what was written on them has accurately “translated” by a single man?
Didn’t the Bible say more than a thousand years before the Book of Mormon not to add to the words of the bible?
I’m not an amazingly educated person, but to follow so adamantly something “translated” by a man less than 200 years ago, and has no proof of ever existing before then, and to say that it’s the most accurate scripture sounds ludicrous.
– Respectfully, Andrew.



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Ender

posted November 14, 2007 at 2:06 pm


(If I have been incorrect in any of these details please let me know.)



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Ender

posted November 14, 2007 at 2:08 pm


My email’s ender@games.ii.net if you don’t want to post a reply on here.



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Gregory A. Swarthout

posted November 14, 2007 at 2:20 pm


> How can you possibly base your beliefs on plates that no-one has any
> proof of ever existing?
By praying to God in the name of his son, Jesus Christ, and receiving the witness of the Holy Ghost.
> I’ve been trying hard to research the Book of Mormon, but why would I
> possibly believe a single word in there.
See above.
> Why would I believe the word of twelve men and only twelve men who
> said that they saw these plates?
Why wouldn’t you? Is there some reason to doubt them?
> Even if the plates existed, how is anyone to know that what was
> written on them has accurately “translated” by a single man?
See above.
> Didn’t the Bible say more than a thousand years before the Book of
> Mormon not to add to the words of the bible?
Thank you for taking the time and effort to not read the previous responses on this blog. For the record, the answer to your question is “no”.
> I’m not an amazingly educated person,
k
> but to follow so adamantly something “translated” by a man less than
> 200 years ago,
What does the age of it matter?
> and has no proof of ever existing before then,
What kind of proof are you looking for?
> and to say that it’s the most accurate scripture sounds ludicrous.
No one need take our word for it. The biblically-established pattern is to ask God for the truth.



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kyle V. Dye

posted November 15, 2007 at 12:53 am


In re adding words, (or changing them), that was all done in Martin Luther’s time.
Many American Indians were Witnesses of Christ’s presence here.
I am 1/4 Cherokee on my mother’s side and 1/4 Cherokee on my father’s side.
I am not a Mormon but was raised a Baptist.
My paternal great, great uncle was Dr. William Milburn Dye, Methodist circuit riding preacher in old SW VA, world traveler/researcher, and author of a few books before WW II.
My maternal great grand father was a Baptist circuit riding preacher in SW VA and NE TN.
NO sect of the belief in God and his Son, Jesus Christ, has the right to deny another of their right to their interpretation and even visions of OUR Christianity.
To say Mormons aren’t true Fundamentalist Christians may really be quite a compliment after all!



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kyle V. Dye

posted November 15, 2007 at 1:11 am


In re “Missing Plates”
Where are the tablets of the TEN COMMANDMENTS?
kyle@dyeswebsite.com



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Ender

posted November 15, 2007 at 2:24 am


Weren’t the Ten Commandments seen by a whole civilization rather than just a few men, or one man, I’m finding it hard to read through all of the sources I’ve been provided with.



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GB

posted November 15, 2007 at 6:17 pm


Ender,
How many witness does the Bible require? Hint: Matt 18:16 or 2 Cor 13:1 (I am assuming that you have a Bible).
Does 12 meet the Biblical requirement?



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OCS

posted November 17, 2007 at 1:40 am


GB; you really think you sound “all knowing” with the thing about the 12?
i would ask, or insist on you going back a few pages and answering the things missing from you book of beliefs.
Then we can really talk, at last…



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GB

posted November 19, 2007 at 10:11 am


OCS,
I would ask, or insist on you going back to the beginning and read the entire discussion. The questions you have are likely to have been answered several times. If you can’t understand the answers then. . . well it probably won’t do any good to go over them again.
It is impossible to have a conversation with you because you don’t listen and your mind is closed. Your posts are incoherent, rambling, illogical and vacuous.



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GB

posted November 19, 2007 at 10:34 am


OCS: GB; you really think you sound “all knowing” with the thing about the 12?
GB: Apparently, in this case I knew more about the Bible law of witnesses than you and ender.
So OCS, does 12 witnesses meet the Bible standard?



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OCS

posted November 25, 2007 at 10:53 pm


GB; This whole blog is not about anything other than whether Mormonism is actually Christianity. i feel there has been enough evidence to show it is not. Mormonism does not resemble Christianity in any way other than name recognition, meaning you all use Christ’s name in your religion. Believe what you will, i am not going to change your mind, and vice versa. But again, i will say, do not call Mormonism a form of Christianity. It is the furthest thing from it.



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GB

posted November 26, 2007 at 4:05 pm


OCS,
I see you haven’t answered my question, so I will ask it again.
Does 12 witnesses meet the Bible standard?
OCS | November 23, 2007 11:37 PM: Vinny; Your “experiment” of which most Mormons refer to is the gut feeling they get when reading the book of mormon, pearl, D&C. They rely on their human feelings instead of God, that is what is wrong with the “experiment”.
GB: So you condemn Vinny because of “feelings” but yet you “feel there has been enough evidence to show” that Mormons aren’t Christian.
Mormonism doesn’t resemble YOUR brand of Christianity, but MOST Christians don’t resemble YOUR brand of Christianity.
I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. He is the only way to salvation. If in your little world that makes me non-christian, it says more about your character than it does about my personal relationship to Jesus Christ.
It is true that your pathetic arguments won’t change my mind. If you could come up with something original, compelling and approved by the Holy Ghost, you might have a chance. But that is impossible for someone like you to do.



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BradS

posted December 3, 2007 at 5:21 pm


Wow what a tangled web of words! I couldn’t stomach several of the lengthy opinions.
I’ve watched in amazement over the past several months those who I thought were fellow “Christians” tell me that I am not. Of course this isn’t anything new, I’ve had it the entire time I’ve been a member of the church. However, the continued slams of my personal beliefs continue to escalate. I have read many blogs in response to various articles written including this one. I have witnessed those who have little knowledge or understanding in foundations for which my faith is founded to those who have taken much out of text. None of this is new to me since I have lived outside Utah and within. Early in my conversion process ironically it was how those who opposed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a mean spirited lashing out manner that caused me serious reflection. Then came the peaceful witness of Holy Ghost helping me understand that which I had been taught was true. Still I delved into every anti book I could get my hands on, trying to sort it all out. The bottom line when all was said and done, the confusion I felt when reading that anti-Mormon literature and the difference I felt when reading the Bible, and the Book of Mormon was overwhelming! It was then that I gained perspective and peace once more. I realize there is not one thing, which I can say to some who will change their point of view. I guess you would have to know me personally, then you may feel differently if I’m a Christian or not. Since that is not possible I will resign myself to the fact that a wise writer said “a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”. I’m in no way perfect, and try so very hard not to be perceived as “holier than thou”, for I feel that I’m the least of the servants of Christ. There are those who call my faith a cult, non-Christian…. for reasons that have existed since the early 1800’s, nothing has changed. Despite all this, I have witnessed first hand the calm peaceful feelings throughout my life of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through both the Bible and yes the Book of Mormon. For the Holy Ghost has witnessed to me the truth of both these great works of God. Nothing can take that from me, I know what I know, and have felt what I have felt. I have strived to follow the council of the Lord “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. I believe this is deeply a “Christian” act that Christ expects of His disciples of which I believe I am. These spiritual heartfelt feelings, I know to be of God and not of man and certainly not of the evil one as some would have me believe. Jesus Christ is who He said He was, the Saviour of the World, He is my friend, my confidant, my everything. The Book of Mormon will stand next to the Bible as the word of God, no matter what forces seek to destroy the connection the two have to one another. I have had way too many PERSONAL experiences, which I draw upon daily. Still there are those who discount what I feel and that is fine, I can accept that. For, “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” (Articles of Faith 1:11)God is not the author of confusion, and beside the daily challenges of life, I can honestly and truthfully state with all soberness that in regards to my relationship with the Savior there is NO confusion, it is real, and personal.



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Brian Connolly

posted December 4, 2007 at 6:51 pm


To: Joseph Robinson
I’ll give you some simple answers from a lay member and you’ll have to look elsewhere for more in depth analysis(lds.org).
-How do you get saved from hell? By living and applying the Gospel
-Is there a hell? The sorrows of the impentitent/state of mind
-Is Jesus God? Yes, God–Son, Father and HG also are Gods..all are one in unity–See John 16-17
-Where did Jesus come from? Son of God and Jehovah(God of the Old Testament) was the spirit personage of Jesus Christ who was made flesh
-Is Jesus the brother of Lucifer? Yes-as we all have the same father
-What is the reward for a mormon after death? To obtain all the father hath–eternal progression continues beyond this life.
-How is a Mormon’s sin taken care of? Repentance, as all Christians
-What is Salvation? Saved from physical death–gift by grace to all
-Who made the earth? Christ–under direction of the Father
-How was Jesus resurrected? He overcame death by his eternal sacrifice and gave the same triumph to all mankind
-What happened after the resurrection? The resurrection of the dead began for all mankind–and will continue until the work is finished.
I hope these simple answers help.



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OCS

posted December 5, 2007 at 12:59 am


So Sorry i seemed “Pathetic” to you. I assume you think any anti mormon is pathetic, right?
you forgot to mention that out of mormonisms original 11 witnesses (the 3, and the 8) that only a few stayed, and the rest left the church and took back that they thought Smith was a false prophet.
Oh Yeah, i forgot, everyone is anti mormon and will lie about everything mormon because it is all important on this earth.
you are messed up.



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Gregory A. Swarthout

posted December 5, 2007 at 10:45 am


OCS, you are sadly mistaken. None of the 11 witnesses ever renounced their testimony.



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BradS

posted December 5, 2007 at 5:18 pm


OCS, I agree with Gregory, none of the 11 ever denied what they saw! That is very well documented. You summed it up pretty good trying to quote what an LDS individual might say “everyone is anti-Mormon and will lie about everything……” good point, I’ve read enough anti-Mormon over my life to know that is pretty much true. They never want to present the truth, why would they when they are trying to prove another individual wrong especially when they use un-documented, statements taken out of complete context, bla, bla, bla. All I can say is at the end of the day or should I say at the end of our lives when you and I stand before our maker we’ll all know who was trying to deceive, who was misled and who tried their entire lives to be true “Christians”.



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J H S

posted December 6, 2007 at 10:33 am


I have many friends here in Oklahoma that are Mormon, My wife and I used to belong to the Southern Baptist Church, and while their are many wonderful people there, they still think they have a corner on the truth.
And the baptist will tell you this, the largest number of converts to the Mormon faith are baptist, so you are stealing their sheep.LOL
With that said I have studied the LDS church doctrine, and while I do not agree with everything, I do not see how you all cannot be called Christians. I even watched the BYU channel and saw the talks given by your leaders, I was very impressed.
Times they are a changing, and even here in the bible belt, who would have though the President of Bob Jones University would endorse Romney?
To all you who feel you need to apologize for your faith, remember, the Lord, and not some self appointed Southern Baptist Leaders will be your judge, to which I say…..Thank God



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PA

posted December 6, 2007 at 6:37 pm


I’ll sum up the invalidity of anit-Mormons. OCS, this is especially for you. Anit-Mormons try to tear down people (the Mormons) who try to do what’s right. They call themselves Christians (those who follow Christ), yet Christ NEVER criticized those who tried to do what was right. If the anti-Mormons were so right, why on Earth would they try to destroy the faith of people who do all they can to live the teachings of the Savior of the world? Answer me that OCS! I’ve encountered and had conversations with several anti-Mormon people and they ALL have the spirit of contention with them, and any good Christian knows the spirit of contention is of the devil.
And I echo JHS’s words. Thank heavens Christ is our judge, because I KNOW he’ll be fair about it…and anti-Mormon people are anything but fair.



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TooMuch

posted December 6, 2007 at 10:15 pm


OCS and James are proven religious bigots and should be ignored entirely…
Religious tolerance is a hallmark of the true Christian…they and many like them are the antithesis of this lofty virtue.
It is one thing to present one’s beliefs…it is quite another to denigrate your neighbor’s beliefs with lies and innuendo.
OCS…you might want to change your pseudoname again so that you won’t be entirely ignored here…again!



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Jim Banta

posted December 7, 2007 at 10:28 am


If they saw anything at all it was a “vision” as Joseph said “the same vision was opened to our (Martin Harris’ and Joseph’s) view, at least it was again opened to me.” Also says they saw the plates “by faith” even as Harris later testified. D.H.C., Vol. I, p. 55,



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GB

posted December 7, 2007 at 12:35 pm


J H S,
Thanks for your kind words. It is true that a lot of Baptists join the LDS church and make some of the finest members. You may not know it but the LDS church maintains strict political neutrality on everything except moral issues. And this in spite of the fact that majority (but certainly not all) members are conservative.
Thanks for dropping by.
GB



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Cary Harpley

posted December 9, 2007 at 9:54 pm


I have read several of these conversations as to whether Mormons are Christians.
I find the following facts to be left out of the subject.
1. Traditional Orthodox Christianity and history(Defined by Who,What,Where,When?)
2. Who is the author(s) of Traditional Orthodox Christianity?
3. Where are these words in the Bible?
4. Were these words used by Christ to define who was a christian?
5. Failure to acknowledge the ancient history of the many different beliefs of the nature of God and Christ.
6. The fact that the Nicene Council was not the Protestant Churches participating or voting on the results. This was a Roman Council making decisons on definitions of faith, canon of scripture, power within the Roman Church of its time. Many argued and would still argue against what we call Traditional Orthodox Christianity as well as argue for it. I do not hear anyone stating the early fathers of the church were not christian because they did not believe in the Nicene Creed.
7. Why did the Protestant Churches break away from the Roman Church and many of its beliefs but kept the Nicene Council’s creed?
8. Why do some of the creeds from this time period still declare a belief in one Holy Roman Apostolic Church?
9. The fact that pagan beliefs, false beliefs, and many other factions were already disrupting Christ’s church was acknowledged by the Apostles long before 325 A.D.
10. The fundamental right of every individual to believe in Jesus Christ according to their faith and still be a called a christian.
11. Why are other faiths of christianity allowed to be called christian when they do not all believe alike but the Mormons must defend their right to be called christian to a divided house of christianity.
12. Why are there those among Traditional Orthodox Christianity (leaders and members) who willing declare the Mormons are christians even if they do not agree with their beliefs?
It appears that this type of conversation will continue and is good to be out in the public domain for all to see and learn everything they can regarding this subject.
I fear that until we can all live the first Great Commandment and the second, we are missing the MARK.



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TooMuch

posted December 10, 2007 at 10:04 am


Well said Cary Harpley…



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Sili So'oto

posted December 10, 2007 at 5:37 pm


I know you and you know me….We fit together like the sun and the sea giving each other light and strength ….when we work together we are treating each other like our creator intended to serve and love each other;0)



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TooMuch

posted December 10, 2007 at 10:08 pm


Is that spelled “Silly or Sili” So’oto…??



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OCS

posted December 11, 2007 at 12:48 am


Mormon’s god is not The Only True God, Not even close!



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Gregory A. Swarthout

posted December 11, 2007 at 11:03 am


> Mormon’s god is not The Only True God, Not even close!
Thus sayist the willfully ignorant.



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James

posted December 13, 2007 at 3:29 am


Wow!!!
A bunch of Mormons in a pseudo-debate on a blog practically devoid of the opposition. Way to go guys. Keep giving yourselves high fives and pats on the back. Blog Tigers are what you are. Big and scary over the net, but toothless and declawed in the flesh.
What really seems to be happening here is you guys need each other to keep your faith “propped-up”.



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Gregory A. Swarthout

posted December 13, 2007 at 10:48 am


James, you are hilarious!



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James

posted December 13, 2007 at 5:18 pm


Thank you Gregory.



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Screwtape

posted December 13, 2007 at 9:50 pm


James,
Unlike Gregory I don’t find you hilarious…but rather contentious, prideful, boisterous and entirely dogmatic. I’m so proud of you son…some day all that I stand for will be yours!!



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James

posted December 14, 2007 at 6:37 pm


So funny I forgot to laugh!!!
It’s not at all suprising that a Mormon would feign to be a voice for the Devil.



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James

posted December 14, 2007 at 6:38 pm


At least you seem to know who it is that you speak for.



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Rotorhead

posted December 14, 2007 at 7:59 pm


James,
There you go again…making rash judgments about Mormons! How do you know it was a Mormon who posted this?…be careful with your answer…it will speak volumes about your character…and credibility.



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Rotorhead

posted December 20, 2007 at 9:51 am


James,
I find it very interesting that when you are “stumped” you remain silent or move on to a different and more easy target on these threads…why is that?



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Lisa

posted January 6, 2008 at 7:22 pm


Let me start by saying I am LDS and I find this whole thing extremely sad. There are so many problems facing this world right now that the arugment about Mormons being Christians or not should be the least of our worries. This bickering back and forth is not going to solve anything.
There is so much suffering and pain all around us. If we put the same energy into helping those people can you imagine what we could accomplish?
Here is a quick fact. Many who have suffered at the hands of a natural disaster in their lives were probably helped by the LDS Church. ie: Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Earthquakes and the like. Do you realize that one of the first organizations on the seen of those natural disasters is the LDS Church? The LDS Church had Semi trucks full of food, water, clothes and hygene products waiting in surrounding states of Hurricane Katrina to go in as soon they could to give relief. Some of you may have recieved help from the LDS Church and not even known it. We don’t go around saying that this help is from the LDS Church. We don’t do it for recognition. We do it because it is what God has asked us to do. Help and love our fellow man regaurdless of their religion or ethnic group. Would you turn down help in a time of need if it came from a Mormon? One of my favorite stories is of a man in Florida whose roof was blown off by a hurricane. A group of people showed up at his home the next day to help rebuild his roof. He asked what group they were from. They said they were from a Mormon Stake close by. He said he wasn’t a Mormon. Why would they help him? They said “because you are a child of God”. The man broke down in tears. He gave hugs of gratitude. Now that my fellow brothers and sisters is what being a part of Gods plan is all about.
I don’t care if you think I am a Christian or not. I will continue to live my life as I feel God wants me to. I will help and love those around me.
I hope amd pray that when things get tough for any of us we will be willing to do what is needed and put aside our petty arguments.



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RotorHead

posted January 6, 2008 at 7:44 pm


Lisa,
That’s all well and good, but from what I have discovered about TOCs on these blogs is that if they went to help a neighbor in need and then discovered that neighbor was LDS…they would be out of there faster than the Pope could say repent! Afterall, helping a Mormon to them is nothing less than helping the devil.
You’re right of course…faith without works is dead!
Cheers.



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OCS

posted January 16, 2008 at 11:24 pm


Rotorhead; what does your name mean exactly? I haven’t heard that phrase before, so i was just curious.
By the way, i have very good friends, and many of them, that are LDS. We love and respect each other, we don’t get into too many religous discussions about doctrine, but i assure you, i would run a mile barefoot to save someone’s life, mormon or not.
I find it sad to think you could be so bitter to believe something like that.
As a Christian, let me assure you, you are not the devil, and I don’t see Mormons as the devil. I believe that the phrase in the heading on one of these threads actually referred to traditional Christianity as the church of the devil, and the context of the paragraph should be read as to why. It has been awhile, and i may be wrong, but i believe that was the referral. As a matter of fact, if i remember, it may have even been referring to how LDS see TOC doctrines?



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OCS

posted January 16, 2008 at 11:32 pm


James; where have you been? I haven’t seen any blogs on here by you for awhile. Did you happen to go on the other threads and read some of the contradictions i found, and the comparison of Biblical verses that supported the bible and how the LDS literature clearly mixes truth with fallacy? I have great friends who have helped me to understand because they are Mormons. i have learned the best way to understand the doctrine of Mormonism is through Mormons willing to share what is most important in their beliefs.
Anyway, The only reason i bring it up is that there is some very valid and interesting insight, and it may answer a few “whys” for you.
In Christ, OCS



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A Mormon Mom

posted January 17, 2008 at 2:36 pm


Orson Scott Card is not paid by the LDS Church to voice his views on religion. The Church is run at the local level by unpaid clergy. Members work together as volunteers at the various jobs in the church – from choir director to bishop.



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OCS

posted January 17, 2008 at 10:08 pm


A Mormon Mom; There is in every church those that are paid, and those that are not. LDS are one of the few though that still “bill” people, even if they move, change address etc. I have friends that have been a little put off by that. All Churches “request” a 10% tithing. Look in the concordance of your bible to see all the verses that mention tithing.
I am not quite sure what you are stating; that Mormon’s are somehow different in what the ‘give’?
I am no one to say that someone who believes in the real Jesus Christ is saved or not. I think it depends more on who one believes to be Jesus. I think that if one puts himself (or herself) on the same level as Jesus, he reveres, fears and loves Him all at the same time. Maybe the question is this; how does one really love someone he has never met? How does one love the Jesus that saved us from ourselves without really knowing Him? Can one bow down and love and worship someone they have never seen?
One has to put himself into a different position than mere human being to fully understand, and I for one, do not believe we can realize it. I think the closest love to that of God for us, is that of a parent. Would anyone of you give your only child as a sacrifice for others, even the ones on these blogs? Would you GB, or Rotorhead, or Mike?
My point in this statement is this; We are not capable of God’s Love because we are human, and we sin. When we are done, and we have accepted the gift of Jesus, and admit we sin, we will be saved. Then we can live with God because we will be made right with Him.
We may all have to answer for what we have written on these blogs. Probably, and especially, if any of it was written in hatred.
Jesus taught us to love others with different beliefs.
Example; Jesus showed a NEW way; In the New Testament, Jesus repeatedly showed how now the unclean was clean. He referred to the Jewish beliefs of Moses, the ten commandments, and the comparison to the new commandments, which was to believe and be baptized, and to love each other as you love yourself.
It is like God gave us an easier way, and some of us just cannot accept it.
My feelings are that Mormonism was started in a self serving way; one way I come to this conclusion is that the disciples were not looking for Christ when they were found, But Smith seemed to be praying when God and Jesus appeared to him. Does anyone else find this odd? Mormon’s believe in progressive revelations from God. It is in many of the blogs and in their doctrine (if i am wrong, please correct me) but many blogs have plainly stated that God DID NOT stop talking to us, and Mormons have the phone line to him. ( I am sorry for the sarcasm, I really do not know another way to put it, continuing revelation?)
If this IS the case, Then they are the only ones that I know of proclaiming that very thing.
I believe there are miracles around us at any given time. Sometimes people speak of them, and other times they don’t. They wouldn’t if they were afraid of the ridicule they would recieve.
I do not believe that God’s schedule is that of Mormons. From my own understanding, and a long blog of Mike Bennion’s, a LDS apostle only has to think or pray real hard, and God will reveal what He wants next.
I have a lot of trouble believing this. God chose the Jews as the bloodline He would come down. Jesus was a Jew. They were God’s chosen. I do not believe that Mormon’s are God’s Chosen. (NOTE; I AM STATING MY BELIEFS ONLY, MY OWN OPINION.) Why;
Because the doctrines I have read and come to understand, are not in connection with the Bible the way I understand it. And that is what faith is, isn’t it? What one believes to be true? The way one understands what the Holy Word says?
I realize that by my words i sound like the saducees and Pharisees. But, they spoke before Jesus proved His own Words. God told us even in the Old Testament how to detect a false prophet, and one way was whether or not what they predicted ( or prophesied) came true. Smith had some false prophesies. Many LDS bloggers have said that He prophesied some things, and fit events into what he happened to say. But to the Christians that have given him their time, they have proven there were way more prophesies that did not come true.
As for all of us right now, we can only rely on what has been recorded.
When I read a Book, like The Holy Bible, And I read different books put together over centuries, and I see the connections and similarities in Prophecy, and then I read the New Testament, And they all come together, well, it is truly, even as the Mormon writers that Mike Bennion cut and pasted in a long blog on another thread, amazing and miraculous. I believe God wanted us to read His Word this way. It would not have survived time if not.
I am not trying to get off of defending traditional Christianity, to defending the Holy Bible. But what I am trying to say is this; I feel that one must question how it is possible that a book such as the Holy Bible has survived all this time, over the centuries and brought men to Christ, and yet the LDS doctrine is only 200 years old, and contradictory in fundamentalism, and yet should be taken as the ‘fulness of the church’. Truly, if it [mormonism] was real gospel, wouldn’t there be the kind of truths in it that are in the Holy Bible? Those that come from centuries of men who didn’t even know each other, but yet proclaim God speaking to them in dreams and visions? And Acts? And Miracles?
Would someone searching for the truth of God be afraid of thinking he himself could be a god himself? What about that of Women who Christ esteemed and respected, being put in a submissive role in Mormonism such as a goddess if selected? Mary, Christ’s Mother, had a lot to overcome herself. I can see why Catholics hold her in esteem as Jesus did. I have not heard one thing from the LDS reps. that have even spoken her name yet.
They [LDS] say Mary was a virgin when Christ was born, but that God was His Father. A heavenly Father, and an Earthly Mother. I would like to know how concieving happens in their definition? I believe what the Bible says, that the Holy Spirit came over her, that Joseph was visited by an angel and told to believe and what to name Jesus. Mormons say, in a negative tone, that we (toc’s) believe that God and Mary had sex. What do they believe happened then, if they argue the accounts of the Bibe? By the way, for anyone new to these blogs, I was answered in a previous blog on another thread that, [that] is what toc’s believe [that God and Mary had sex] and i am saying No that is not what TOC’s believe. We believe in immaculate conception, no body of God present, but Mary becoming pregnant. From what i understand that is not what Mormons believe. They say that Mary was a virgin, but how could a woman have a baby without a man present?
If I am wrong, correct me, and tell me how they believe Jesus was concieved.



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Gregory A. Swarthout

posted January 18, 2008 at 11:08 am


> My feelings are that Mormonism was started in a self serving way
Asking God which church on earth was true is self-serving?
> one way I come to this conclusion is that the disciples were not
> looking for Christ when they were found, But Smith seemed to be
> praying when God and Jesus appeared to him. Does anyone else find
> this odd?
What is odd about it?
> Mormon’s believe in progressive revelations from God.
And rightly so. God is the same now and forever.
> It is in many of the blogs and in their doctrine (if i am wrong,
> please correct me) but many blogs have plainly stated that God DID
> NOT stop talking to us,
Correct!
> and Mormons have the phone line to him.
Any person can receive personal revelation from God by the witness of the Holy Ghost, but only God’s prophet can receive revelation regarding the whole of His church or the whole of humanity.
> I do not believe that God’s schedule is that of Mormons. From my own
> understanding, and a long blog of Mike Bennion’s, a LDS apostle only
> has to think or pray real hard, and God will reveal what He wants
> next.
No, God reveals His will in His time.
> I have a lot of trouble believing this.
No wonder, since your understanding is flawed.
> God chose the Jews as the bloodline He would come down.
k
> Jesus was a Jew. They were God’s chosen. I do not believe that
> Mormon’s are God’s Chosen.
Mormons have the fullness of the gospel of Christ. Does that make them His Chosen?
> Because the doctrines I have read and come to understand, are not in
> connection with the Bible the way I understand it.
Then your understanding is flawed and we have tried to correct you. You could have the full understanding that we do by taking the Mormon Challenge, but you refuse. You refuse to allow the Holy Ghost to testify to you of the restoration of the fullness of the gospel.
> And that is what faith is, isn’t it? What one believes to be true?
> The way one understands what the Holy Word says?
You don’t have to rely on your own understanding. That is where the Holy Spirit comes in.
> God told us even in the Old Testament how to detect a false prophet,
> and one way was whether or not what they predicted ( or prophesied)
> came true. Smith had some false prophesies.
And yet you haven’t produced a single one.
> Many LDS bloggers have said that He prophesied some things, and fit
> events into what he happened to say. But to the Christians that have
> given him their time, they have proven there were way more prophesies
> that did not come true.
Nope, proof has not been provided. Merely claiming it has isn’t good enough.
> As for all of us right now, we can only rely on what has been
> recorded.
What happened to faith?
> I am not trying to get off of defending traditional Christianity, to
> defending the Holy Bible. But what I am trying to say is this; I feel
> that one must question how it is possible that a book such as the
> Holy Bible has survived all this time, over the centuries and brought
> men to Christ, and yet the LDS doctrine is only 200 years old, and
> contradictory in fundamentalism, and yet should be taken as the
> ‘fulness of the church’.
Back to the logical fallacy of Appeal to Tradition, I see. The difference is that fundamentalism isn’t Christianity as was practiced in the early centuries. Time doesn’t create truth.
> Truly, if it [mormonism] was real gospel, wouldn’t there be the kind
> of truths in it that are in the Holy Bible?
Yep! And there are. Read all of the scriptures and you will see!
> Would someone searching for the truth of God be afraid of thinking he
> himself could be a god himself?
Why would he be afraid?
> What about that of Women who Christ esteemed and respected, being put
> in a submissive role in Mormonism such as a goddess if selected?
Submissive role? You really don’t understand our beliefs and make no real attempt to.
> Mary, Christ’s Mother, had a lot to overcome herself. I can see why
> Catholics hold her in esteem as Jesus did. I have not heard one thing
> from the LDS reps. that have even spoken her name yet.
Perhaps because we aren’t here to discuss Mary? Just a thought.
> They [LDS] say Mary was a virgin when Christ was born,
Don’t TOC’s?
> but that God was His Father.
Yes.
> A heavenly Father, and an Earthly Mother. I would like to know how
> concieving happens in their definition? I believe what the Bible
> says, that the Holy Spirit came over her, that Joseph was visited by
> an angel and told to believe and what to name Jesus. Mormons say, in
> a negative tone, that we (toc’s) believe that God and Mary had sex.
No we say that TOC’s claim that WE believe that. We, of course, don’t.
> What do they believe happened then, if they argue the accounts of the
> Bibe?
We don’t argue the accounts of the Bible.
> By the way, for anyone new to these blogs, I was answered in a
> previous blog on another thread that, [that] is what toc’s believe
> [that God and Mary had sex] and i am saying No that is not what TOC’s
> believe.
Ya, you got that mixed up.
> We believe in immaculate conception, no body of God present, but Mary
> becoming pregnant.
Uh, the Immaculate Conception was not the conception of Jesus by Mary, it was the conception of Mary by her parents. Ask a catholic.
> From what i understand that is not what Mormons believe.
Your understanding is flawed, and you make no attempts at achieving correct understanding.
> They say that Mary was a virgin, but how could a woman have a baby
> without a man present?
Are you implying that *you* believe a man was present?



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RotorHead

posted January 18, 2008 at 3:42 pm


OCS,
Again, you seem all confused. Take the Mormon Challenge and it will all make sense.



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OCS

posted January 19, 2008 at 12:34 am


Above blogger; my question was why we should believe in a kid who asked God what was the real church.
Answer this then; And i realize it will be opinion;
So God and Jesus appeared to Smith and said, the true church is mormonism, and we will send an angel to show you.
then over the course of a few years, Smith supposedly finds gold plates in Egyptian hyroglyphics, a language no one had figured out yet, and he creates a church that is definately different from any scripture so far. Espcecially the parts about Kolob and inheriting a universe, creating bodies for spirit children, etc.
What i don’t understand is how a group of people, and so many, could believe that it could be true. aside from a miracle. But it doesn’t even resemble the types of miracles that had happened in history before, even when Christ was on earth with us.
It seems so out there to think that everyone was wrong, and God waited until now to come out, contradicting scripture ( i know, mormons beleive the bible to be fallible) and believe in things never heard before that time.
Do Mormons agree that Smith started a whole new religious movement? Or is there proof of these teachings elsewhere during the time questioned (1800 years in between)n that support SMith, or is it just his word that is enough?



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OCS

posted January 24, 2008 at 8:07 pm


Sorry about the Immaculate conception thing. Now you know I definately am not Catholic.
I merely meant that Jesus was not concieved the ‘traditional’ way. That God and Mary did not have relations. Anyway, that is what I believe about Jesus being born to a virgin. I have heard that other religous sects question what ‘virgin’ meant. That ‘virgin’ birth could mean many things, like she had not sinned, or the line she came down was not held accountable by God. Just different things from the back of my mind that probably mean nothing.
Do Mormons believe that Mary and God were married? That Mary is the earth mother of all the spirit children?



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Praterie

posted January 24, 2008 at 11:11 pm


OCS: Do Mormons believe that Mary and God were married?
No
OCS: That Mary is the earth mother of all the spirit children?
No



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QuiteSimpleReally

posted January 27, 2008 at 4:42 pm


To all who claim Mormon’s non-Christian for claiming that Latter-Day Saints believe that God was once a human being and that human beings can become gods, I’d like to clarify a bit.
The famous couplet, written by Lorenzo Snow, fifth President of The Church of Jesus Christ, states:
As man now is, God once was;
As God now is, man may become.
It has been claimed by some that this is an altogether pagan docrine htat blasphemes the majesty of God. Not all Christians have thought so, however. In the second century Saint Irenaeus, the most important Christian theologian of his time, said much the same thing as President Lorenzo Snow.
If the Word became a man,
It was so men may become gods.
Indeed, Saint Irenaeus had more than this to say on the subject of deification:
“Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High.”…For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality.”
Also, Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, “Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” Almost an exact paraphrase of Lorenzo Snow. He also said, “if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God…His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, ‘Men are gods, and gods re men.'”
Still in the 2nd Century, Saint Justin Martyr insisted that in the beginning men “were made like God, free from suffering and death,” and that they are thus “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.”
In the early 4th century Saint Athanasius — that tireless foe of heresy after whom the orthodox Athanasian Creed is named — also stated his belief in deification in terms very similar to those of Lorenzo Snow: “The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be mad gods…Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life.” On another occasion Athanasius stated, “He became man that we might be made divine.”
Finally, Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said: “But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God [John 1:12}. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”
These are all unimpeachable Christian authorities here—no pagans, no Gnostics. All five of the above writers were not just Christians, and not just orthodox Christians—they were orthodox Christian SAINTS!! Three of the five wrote within a hundred years of the period of the Apostles, and all five believed in the doctrine of deification. This doctrine was a part of historical Christianity until relatively recent times, and it is still an important doctrine in some Eastern Orthodox churches. Those who accuse the LDS of making up the doctrine, simply do not now the history of Christian doctrine.
QSR



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OCS

posted February 10, 2008 at 8:42 pm


QSR;
I searched the book ‘The confessions of St. Augustine’, which was his declaration of his beliefs. Nowhere in his declarations, did I read where he said, or even alluded to, “since we are children of God, we must then become gods.”
Will you please cite where your information comes from?
Also, St. Augustine believed in the Holy Trinity, and was a Traditional Christian. From what I have read in his book, his account of his life, he does not fit the description you allude to above. He fits the description of Traditional Christian.
on page 258; “And under the name of God, I now held the Father, who made these [things]; and under the name of the Beginning, the Son, in whom He made these [things]; and believing, as I did, that my God was the Trinity, I sought further in His holy words, and behold, Thy Spirit was borne over the waters. Behold the Trinity, O my God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,- the Creator of all creation.”
The reason I felt it necessary to print the above was that it is important to represent a Christian Father correctly, and not make him to look as if he believed we would become gods ourselves to support the belief of the church of LDS.



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QuiteSimpleReally

posted February 12, 2008 at 12:24 am


OCS,
Try reading it in Augustine, “On the Psalms” 50.2. Augustine insists that such individuals are gods by grace rather than by nature, but they are gods nevertheless.
QSR



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OCS

posted February 22, 2008 at 11:21 pm


QSR;
You are really reaching for the ‘being a god’ thing. It doesn’t matter what Augustine meant (which, by the way, i disagree with you on), he saw himself as a humble servant of God, The Holy Trinity. You can argue all you want about what he really ‘meant’. The fact is, all anyone has is his writings, but to use them and try to make them sound supportive of your own beliefs afterall, seems to be very wrong to me. You try to point to a Christian that holds esteem only to put your spin on his words and use them to say, ‘see, see….even HE thinks ….’
I think you should (the world according to me)stick with the debate and not get off on a tangent. It is hard enough to seperate doctrines of two different faiths without bringing in more memorable ‘fathers of the church’ on top of it.
Read “The Confessions of St. Augustine” to answer any other of your questions about what he really thought. But, read the whole book, not just bits and pieces.
With all due respect, I see nowhere that St. Augustine has any belief whatsoever, that any man ever becomes a god.



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BringSenseHere

posted February 23, 2008 at 1:33 pm


OCS,
You forget that we all have the same origins…Jesus Christ. What happened after his time on earth is what’s open to debate…if not then there would not be Protestants, for the Catholics would have the right of it!
It really matters not as to the TRUTH of the LDS position of the need for a RESTORATION as to just what St. Augustine thought or wrote…but it’s interesting as “circumstantial” that not all post-Jesus era Christians felt or thought the same about a number of things…don’t you agree?
BSH



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OCS

posted February 28, 2008 at 8:40 pm


BSH; This is getting beyond redundant. You answer your own question, how about that?



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OCS

posted February 29, 2008 at 12:47 am


BSH; I asked you to answer your own question quite a few hours ago. Are you, or are you not, going to answer the question YOU posed?
By the way; Did you know that Jesus coined the phrase Hypocrite? He meant actor. someone who acted like something they were not.
I didn’t think so, since you don’t know my savior.



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Dennis

posted May 2, 2008 at 12:48 am


OCS,
What is your source for Jesus coining the word “hypocrite” since this is a markedly Greek word and Jesus spoke Aramaic? The word was used by Plato and Aristotle as well, did you know that? But if you want to get technical God coined every word as He is the giver of language.
Why in the world would you want someone to answer the question of whether you agree of not. That doesn’t make any sense.
And maybe we don’t know your savior (little s), but we do know our. He is the one who bled from every pour in the Garden of Gethsemane while offering up the great atoning prayer, taking upon himself the sins of all who had ever lived and all that would yet live. He is the one that then offred Himself as the ultimate sacrifice so that all mankind may be saved. He was resurrected so that all will be resurrected. He brought about the salvation of the all mankind if they will accept Him and abide by His words and teachings. That is who the Savior of true Christians is. Who is yours? Our Savior is He who is written about in the New Testament and foretold in the Old. Where is yours written about?



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NCwachovian

posted August 24, 2008 at 11:05 am


It’s always interesting to me that those who criticize The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as being non-Christian are not Catholic, but seem to come from the Protestant wing of “mainstream” Christianity.
Although centuries of persistence has worn away at that long lasting title given to Protestants of “heretic”, the bottom line is, Protestants cannot justify their inclusion in the Christian community because the many churches they are baptized into and take communion from have no authority to even exist.
Either the Catholics are right or the Mormons. No one else has any valid argument.
So Protestant critics of the LDS church: Why are YOU not Catholic? It’s a “mainstream” Christian church, right?
When my ancestors, followers of Jan Huss, split from the organized Catholic Church, they felt the Catholic priesthood had been corrupted and the priesthood authority to baptize, hear confessions, administer communion to the congregation, and preach the gospel had been lost. How could they “come unto” Christ without being baptized by someone with authority? Without an officially ordained priest, how could they follow Christ’s commandment to remember him by meeting together often and partaking of communion in remembrance of Him? Who among them could make himself or another a teacher, a minister, a priest?
After Huss was deceived by the pope and burned at the stake, his followers sent groups of men, two by two, around the known Christian world looking for a priest who could prove that his priesthood ordination drew it’s authority from an unbroken, uncorrupted chain back to the early apostles. They gathered after two years to report. Although valiant in their efforts, they were unsuccessful in their search. They tried again. Again they were unsuccessful. These early Hussites later became the Unitas Fratrum – the United Brethren and later in America, the Moravian Church. Not finding what was essential to their worship, they rationalized their separation from the Catholic church and took upon themselves the claim of priesthood – that which cannot be bought or sold – to avoid having to go back to a dead church with a corrupt and fallen priesthood.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stands separate from what was called a heresy for centuries by Kings, the Pope, the Cardinals, the Bishops and the priests of the Catholic church. The LDS church and the Catholic church both claim that the authority to fulfill Christ’s commission to take the gospel to all the ends of the earth has been given them by Jesus Christ himself.
The Protestants who criticize either the LDS (which they love to do) or the Catholics (which they are afraid to do) cannot undergo the same inspection or ridicule they heap on others. (And there is much that can be criticized.) If they really had anything of true value to offer, why the need to criticize others? How many Protestant Sunday school classes teach about other religions and specifically teach against the Mormons? Their Protestant system would be able stand on it’s own if it had any true, unique value to offer. As it is divided into innumerable factions with an infinite number of differing beliefs, what do they mean by “mainstream”. Oh yes, the Nicene Creed! It took, what, four centuries after Christ for men to decide who God is? More a politically expedient creed than a religious one, wasn’t it? What about “I believe in the one and true Holy Catholic church? I guess the Protestants can forget about that creed. Whatever is convenient, I suppose.
Does “mainstream” mean so watered-down that “one size fits all” or “whatever is convenient and suits the moment”? A house divided against itself will eventually fall. Protestant beliefs relieve followers of personal accountability – all are saved who simply confess their belief in Christ – good works are dead – just do whatever as long as you believe. Makes the world a much better place. They seem to have no standards other than being pro-life. Gone are the inconvenient Sabbath day observance standards of yesteryear. The ministers cannot insist on the moral behavior of their congregants (especially the youth) for fear of losing their power and their paycheck. Much easier to tolerate gays than to preach moral virtues. Too, too inconvenient….
Protestants!!! Your options are Catholicism or Mormonism!
In the middle you are the lost sheep. The Savior himself defines who is a Christian. He taught us that He is the good shepherd and His sheep know His voice. Not all will answer. He comes to divide, taking one from the field and leaving the others, one from a family, setting brothers at difference with another. Hence the division we see today.
My family left the Catholic church in what is now Belgium in the 1400’s (just before the plague arrived) when one brother left his other brother who was wealthily employed by the Prince-Bishop of Liege, fled to England to save his life and eventually the family moved on to America and to the Wachovia settlement of Moravians in North Carolina in the 1700’s.
Christ did not mean for the confusion to last forever. Now, as we near His glorious return and reign on earth, He calls to His sheep.
I found the true, restored Church of Jesus Christ. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior and Redeemer and have been baptized by one having true authority from Jesus Christ. I am imperfect. I repent of my sins and partake of the sacrament of the Lord’s supper which is administered in both kinds by someone having authority from Jesus Christ. I am weak but I am blessed to be taught the gospel of Jesus Christ in my native tongue by someone having authority from Jesus Christ himself.
My calling as a husband and a father came from God. The calling and authority to baptize, administer the sacraments and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ come as they always have in the scriptures, from the Savior, not well intentioned men who ordain each other or from a book.
All of this bickering about interpretation of the scriptures or doctrines or practices is moot. It underscores that no one with true authority from God is in charge. The true church of Christ teaches truth with authority and offers no apology.
I have found the church that my ancestors sought for so long ago. The true Church of Jesus Christ.



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