Belief Beat

Belief Beat


Are Conservative Christians Losing or Forfeiting War on Gay Marriage?

posted by Nicole Neroulias

There’s been lots of good news for gay marriage supporters lately, in the United States and around the world. Some recent stories, including negative reactions from conservative Catholics, Protestants and Mormons:

Is it that same-sex marriage and other gay rights issues (repealing Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell) gain more public acceptance with the passage of time, and/or are conservative Christians focusing on other areas these days? Is USA Today’s Cathy Lynn Grossman on to something, wondering whether religious attitudes on gay marriage come down to something like daddy issues? I suspect that it’s no coincidence, although correlation should never be confused with causation, that another religion news trend lately concerns younger evangelical Christians striving to distance themselves from polarizing social issues in favor of environmental causes, immigration reform and helping the poor.

(My two cents: Whether or not the religious right is “losing its children,” meaningful support for political candidates still comes down to their opposition to abortion, same-sex marriage and other gay rights issues — regardless of where they stand on oil drilling regulations, guest worker programs, etc. If that changes, stop the presses.)

What do you think? Share your thoughts in the Comments section below.

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Jennifer

posted July 22, 2010 at 9:34 am


If these young Evangelical Christians think they can “distance themselves” from the important moral battles like true marriage and the sanctity of life, yet still remain faithful to the mission they are woefully misled. Sounds to me like they are choosing the easy, politically-correct gospel rather than the true Gospel.
This is why the Catholic Church is the last best hope for our culture. Even if every other Christian church folds and compromises the truth about marriage and life, the Catholic Church never will.



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FlexSF

posted July 22, 2010 at 10:00 am


Time is up. The opponents of marriage equality had their chance to put their proof to the test. They produced one witness in the Perry v. Schwarzenegger trial, and with all due respect, his field of expertise was cabinet making. Religious people must stop telling everyone how to live their lives, and concede that some of the things published in their bible is incompatible with contemporary reality.



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Charles Cosimano

posted July 22, 2010 at 10:38 am


Christian conservatives, social conservatives in general for that matter, have lost every single battle they have fought for a few hundred years now. This is just another in a long list of defeats.



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m.e.graves

posted July 22, 2010 at 11:09 am


Sounds to me like they are choosing the easy, politically-correct gospel rather than the true Gospel.
This is why the Catholic Church is the last best hope for our culture. Even if every other Christian church folds and compromises the truth about marriage and life, the Catholic Church never will.
Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/beliefbeat/2010/07/conservative-christians-losing-or-forfeiting-the-war-on-gay-marriage.html#ixzz0uQL16or8

Nope. Young evangelicals are finally waking up from the nightmare of their parents’ making. Their parents created the nightmare of “Christianism” that viewed minorities, women, GLBT, immigrants, as disgusting demons meant to be destroyed. Their parents’ nightmare allowed for the rise of a force of darkness in Christianity that gave birth to the “Religious Right” and other groups that gave power to policies that gutted social institutions and help for the poor and the least of us in society. They are waking up to the fact that what has been occurring in the name of Christianity for the past generation has been an adulteration of morality into xenophobia, sexism, racism, and homophobia. They are waking up to the fact that what Jesus preached has been what their parents have allowed their elected official to work against for the past generation.
But the important thing is that they are waking up, and will continue to follow Jesus, who brings light to the world, rather than their parents’ fears, which brings darkness to the world. Maybe some of their parents will wake up, too. Maybe you’ll be one of them.



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Kathy Barr

posted July 22, 2010 at 11:21 am


As someone who has personally seen the damage done to families as a result of the gains of the “gay” rights movement, I think it is appalling that more Christians are not working to defeat this group. Approval of same-sex marriage will lead to more homosexuals adopting and raising children to follow them in this deadly lifestyle. Studies show that, in the gay community, higher rates of alcoholism, domestic violence, sexual promiscuity, disease and suicide rates make for a home environment that is certainly not conducive to raising children. Please, Christians, we need to fight back! Most importantly, we need to show gays that they, too, can experience the love of Christ and have a relationship with Him if they turn from their ungodly ways.



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Ronald S

posted July 22, 2010 at 11:41 am


read earlier this year – “out of faithfulness to Christ, they have chosen to live in celibacy or in marriage with a spouse of the opposite sex. – – – an essential part of faithfulness for the Christian is learning to submit our desires to God’s will in all areas of life.”
Is this impossible? And why should the truth be offensive? Anyone who knows God and faithfully follows the will of God understands the difference between desires or temptations (experienced by all) and choosing to live a life of sin.
Whatever the temptation, all are tempted to sin. No man is without sin. By the grace of God, we are forgiven of our sins if we are faithful to Christ and repent of those sins.
“No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.”
It may appear that the battle is being lost. With faith and trust in God, we know that the war will not be lost. Let us live not be misled. Rather, let us live in faith and follow God’s will.



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Kyriakos

posted July 22, 2010 at 11:55 am


“This is why the Catholic Church is the last best hope for our culture. Even if every other Christian church folds and compromises the truth about marriage and life, the Catholic Church never will.”
You are right Jennifer. The Catholic Church along with the Orthodox Churches and conservative protestants are our last hope. It would be better to say that a unified Catholic Church (into which all like minded christians and churches unify) is the last hope of the western culture.
Well Jennifer you and I could be persecuted and mocked for our support for this ‘medieval’ Church by the ‘enlightened’ barbarians. But don’t worry, most of the liberal journalists rarely read beliefnet. Shame on these bigots. I don’t think these prejudiced accusers are much concerned of truth and justice than to tarnish the image of people whom they consider a threat to their world view. And I don’t wonder if many of them do what they zealously accuse others of doing.
Well Jennifer let us stand courageously for our views.



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Robert C

posted July 22, 2010 at 11:58 am


Nope? What are you smoking bud? Not sure what “christianism” you are refering to or why you choose to encapsulate entire groups under your umbrella of “demons” who also comprise significant segments of the religious groups you yourself demonize. The world isn’t quite as simple as you portray. As a gay man I can assure you that the most significant voting block obstructing marriage rights for the gay community has paradoxically been the black community. That obstruction remains whether the nomenclature is ‘gay marriage’ or ‘spousal rights’, contrary to other christian groups who would not object to the ‘spousal rights’ terminology. You also seem to blithely ignore certain other religions which are more stridently fundementalist and more hostile to the groups you single out than most of the conservative christian sects you seem to abhore. Paradoxically I do not see conservative christians as the biggest threat to gay rights as much as certain segments within my own gay community who will prove to be more destructive in the long run.



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Grumpy Old Person

posted July 22, 2010 at 1:24 pm


“Is it that same-sex marriage and other gay rights issues (repealing Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell) gain more public acceptance with the passage of time, and/or are conservative Christians focusing on other areas these days?”
Yes to the first suggestion – LGBT folk ARE gaining more public acceptance – because the more people that come out of the closet, the more the lies about LBGT folk are exposed as just that – heinous lies.
Conservative Christians may very well ber refocusing on other areas – because more and more of them have come to realize that our mutally consenting, adult, human relationships are based on love and simply are NOT the moral equivalent of beastiality, child-molestation, rape, incest, polygamy, cannibalism, necrophihlia, marrying a rock or a plant or a bicycle – every single, damnable example of which has appeared – often – right here on Beliefnet!
Thinking Christians, Conservative or Liberal know better. They see proud, out people like Ellen Degeneres, Ian McKellan, Lt. Dan Choi, Col. Grethe Kammermeyer (sp?), Mary Cheney, Chris Gephardt, David Hyde-Pierce, myself, their own children and grandchildren, co-workers, neighbours, friends, fellow church members, and others who live good, honorable lives, and understand that they’ve been sold a bucket of lies about God’s LGBT children.
We are NOT “Satan’s minions” nor “Sons of Moloch” – both of which charges appeared – frequently – under Rod Dreher’s two despicable incarnations here on Beliefnet.



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Grumpy Old Person

posted July 22, 2010 at 1:47 pm


@ Kathy Barr,
Your delusionns are so easily shattered and exposed as lies …
“As someone who has personally seen the damage done to families as a result of the gains of the “gay” rights movement”
Too bad you neglected to list a single piece of evidence of this “damage done to families”.
I am very happy you put the smarm quotes around the word gay in your reference to the gay rights movement – because there’s no such thing as gay rights – only equal rights. And, currently in the US, gay citizens don’t HAVE equal rights. That is why it is UN-Constitutional to refuse to allow gay citizens to serve in the military, marry the person of their mutual choosing and to fire people for being – or for being BELIEVED to be – gay.
“I think it is appalling that more Christians are not working to defeat this group.”
And I think it is a wonderful thing that more Christians are rejecting your lies about us.
“Approval of same-sex marriage will lead to more homosexuals adopting and raising children to follow them in this deadly lifestyle.”
So much mis-/dis-information it’s hard to know where to start. First of all, same-sex marriage and adoption by LGVT persons are two separate issues, especially if you stop to THINK and realize that single people can adopt children. There’s no logic in your statement that LBGT people “rais[e] children to follow them” in a sexual orientation. Certainly not anymore than heterosexual parents raise children to ‘follow’ theirs. About 99.9999% of gay people were raised by heterosexuals. And I don’t know what you mean by “lifestyle” let alone “this deadly lifestle”. LGBT people have lives (until they’re snuffed out by haters – pace Matt Shephard, Aaron Webster, Tina Brandon, et al). Lifestyles have to do with how many cars you own, whether or not you go to the disco every Friday and Saturday and Sunday night, etc.
‘Studies show that, in the gay community, higher rates of alcoholism, domestic violence, sexual promiscuity, disease and suicide rates make for a home environment that is certainly not conducive to raising children.”
Well first of all, my husband and I AREN’T RAISING CHILDREN. Nor are the majority of LBGT people, married or single. secondly, your statment ignores many other factors that contribute to alcoholism, domestic violence etc. (Sheeite, you type as if none of those conditions appear in heterosexual parents.) The suicide rate, for instance, can be directly attributed to the hatred heaped on God’s LGBT children – by the likes of YOU, an dto the social ostracism they experience by, for instance, being able to be fired (or not hired) simply for being (or being THOUGHT to be) gay – which is still perfectly legal in some 30+ States.
Get. A. Clue!
“Please, Christians, we need to fight back!”
No you don’t. You need to leave God’s LBGT children alone.
“Most importantly, we need to show gays that they, too, can experience the love of Christ and have a relationship with Him if they turn from their ungodly ways.”
If your post is any example, you don’t know HOW to show others love, only condemnation and deceipt (aka lies, aka the bearing of false witness, aka a great big fat SIN). Plus, you seem to believe that gay people haven’t (aren’t able to) experience the love of Christ and/or have a relationship with Him. Let me assure you, many of us do. I’ve been a member of my gay-friendly Christian Church for more than 30 years.
Our relationship is what I was taught as a child to have with Him, namely a personal one. (I.E. it’s between Him and me and you should butt the heck out.)
IMO, yours is the “ungodly way” for it is motivated by hatred, contempt and purposeful deceit about God’s LGBT children.
I will pray your soul is healed.



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nnmns

posted July 22, 2010 at 2:13 pm


No group deserves to “lose its children” more than that sad group of Evangelicals and such that bought the idea morality consists of denying homosexuals the rights they deserve and need, and denying women and families the access to abortion they need, and does not involve helping the needy or keeping the world we must live in livable.
Their leaders chose the easiest “sins” to condemn, the ones that didn’t pertain to a lot of their parishioners and those to whom they did pertain are mostly ashamed to admit it.
I admire those youth who are able to break away from misguided guidance like that. They are better people than their parents.



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James

posted July 22, 2010 at 3:11 pm


Religion is a choice, sexuality is not. People choose to dislike gay people who don’t choose to be gay. That’s why the LGBT community is gaining support. Anyone who’s not completely brain dead can understand that.



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KIM

posted July 22, 2010 at 4:38 pm


READ ROMANS 1:26-32 AND SEE WHAT GOD THINKS OF HOMOSEXUALITY. GOD LOVES ALL PEOPLE, JUST NOT THEIR SINS. HE DIDN’T DESTROY SODOM AND GOMORRAH FOR PLAYING TIDDLYWINKS! ABORTION IS MURDER, GOD IS THE CREATOR AND SUSTAINER OF LIFE! READ GOD’S WORD! ALL OF GOD’S WORD IS TRUTH! YOU CAN’T JUST PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT PARTS YOU WANT TO BELIEVE!



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Still Believe

posted July 22, 2010 at 4:51 pm


This discussion always frustrates me. Since I believe in a Creator God who created with a purpose and love His creation, unless he changed his purpose for making two sexes, marriage can only be defined as heterosexual. God’s word says, “the two will become one flesh.” This can’t happen with two men or two women. The penis goes in the vagina and the one flesh that comes out is a child from that couple. Marriage inalterably recognizes this. Adam and Eve were one man and one woman. All this is impossible with homosexuals. We need to guard both the rights and privileges of those that have children as a couple, birthed into their home and family. Period. More importantly, we need to recognize the their is a Creator God. Gay marriage denies these elemenatry teachings about God’s word and also want is evident by looking at the created world around us. Ultimately this gay marriage debate is a sad gauge of the degree to which our society has rejected God, His Word, and natural law and has turned to recklessly seeking pleasure.
The final word should be to tell gay people of the better ways God has. But not just them. Also the heterosexuals who have themselves rejected God’s Word, Created order, and natural law. It would be best to call us all to return to God, His Created order, and His blessing (which include children).
Watch Demographic Winter (on DVD) to see the tangible results of forgetting part of God’s purpose for sexuality; people not having children – gays must rely on others for children, which they are ill equipped to raise). We need to repent and return to God and to common sense.



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dave

posted July 22, 2010 at 5:03 pm


To answer the question. Conservative Christians (not even sure what that means) are losing the war because they picked a stupid thing to fight. I guess you would call me a moderate Christian, while I am faithful and follow the example of the Lord I am not blindly devoted to a book of dubious authorship or an organization that talks-the-talk but cannot walk-the-walk.
From the moment this issue appeared on the national stage I have hoped that religion would just let it go. Not only can we not win, we should not win because we would win nothing.
Abortion is murder – you will get no arguement from me but we lost because we faught it stupidly. You want abortion to go away then look to the problem not the action. Better education and better choices are what decrease a behavior, making it forbidden just increases the alure!
Gay marriage is not even an issue we should have brought up.
There are two guys, I see at the grocery store every couple of weeks. We all have a nodding acquaintance as I am sure they see me as an old man but that is okay. Couple of weeks I listened to them fight/discuss toilet paper. It was exactly the same arguement in exactly the same way I recall having so many years ago when I was about their age. The kind of stupid terse discussions every couple has had, in every grocery store, in ever city, in the world. No matter how hard I try, and I really don’t try at all because who cares, I cannot see how they are upsetting anyone especially God. Seems to me like the ones doing the screaming always turn out to be the ones trying to hide something! That is sort of what is repugnant to me and I bet it pisses God off too.
As an aside to Kim – you just did what you scream others should not do – cherrypicked a part as proof. Really, what did you accomplish?



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KIM

posted July 22, 2010 at 5:28 pm


Sorry Dave, I didn’t mean to SCREAM, my caps lock was on. I just picked out part of God’s truth that pertained to homosexuality, there are more scriptures that pertain to this particular sin if you care to look into it. We all sin, I pray for God’s help daily. I’m not condemning anyone, just speaking God’s truth.



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Still Believe

posted July 22, 2010 at 5:40 pm


Dave,
The abortion debate is being won for the pro-life side. Look at the statistics and the media attention, and all this without government funding!!. http://www.prolife.com/
On the gay marriage issue, the traditionalists are winning. Muslims (moving towards 2 billion adherents) do not accept homosexuality and they are growing. Non-Western, majority world Christians, also growing in number rapidly (and having many children born into traditional value homes). It is we ‘educated’ that have lost our ‘common sense.’ This gay issue is a loss for anyone associated with it, either supporting it or practicing it.
Plus, the Word of God plainly states that homosexuals will not be in Christ’s kingdom when Jesus come back to judge the world at the end of this age. We should reject the foolishness of our society and culture that pretends gays can be ‘married,’ and help these gays also find help in God. We should stop teaching children homosexuality is OK, normal, etc. Is is one avenue to shame, AIDS, singleness, childlessness, and ultimately to hell. God has better ways and we should introduce people to these. Ultimately, traditionalists and conservative are on the winning side on this issue because The Bible says not one gay will have eternal life. What will you say if Jesus ask you why you supported them in their destructive lifestyles?
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and understanding. Fools despise wisdom and understanding. Proverbs 1:7



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nnmns

posted July 22, 2010 at 5:48 pm


If the people who argue marriage is only for procreation walked their talk, when they became physically unable to bear a child and their children left home they’d divorce.
They would be, at that time, in a marriage incapable of procreation and their argument makes no allowance for the reason a marriage is childless, they just say a marriage must not be childless.
Which, of course, just emphasizes the point it’s a stupid argument.



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Still Believe

posted July 22, 2010 at 6:05 pm


nnsm,
Your argument is correct that marriage has/ should have more than one purpose, therefore, I’m not sure who would believe in the strawman you set up. Who is arguing for marriage only for procreation?? I agree that you correctly discussed stupidity in argument but whose argument?
However, bearing children is central to marriage. Our US legal system has traditionally recognized marriage as between one man and one woman because when they get together under one roof they have children and, therefore, they build our society. Gays can be together under one roof involved in sexual activity and there will be no children. Period. This is common sense, obvious. Gays, therefore, need none of the benefits of heterosexual couples unless they seek artificial fertilization (this applies only to lesbians!!). There living together is never, marriage. It is only when we intervene and change the course of nature and the way God made things that gays can ‘have’ children or pretend they are ‘married.’ Wow, what a distortion of what God has created!! How foolish and silly!
I think that is why homosexuals were to be sentenced to death in the Old Testament and why the Apostle Paul says they will not be part of Christ’s kingdom.
God way for them is to repent and honor Him as a god and wise Creator. And Jesus can forgive all the sin, including homosexuality, and give them power to live for God!



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kenneth

posted July 22, 2010 at 6:16 pm


The bigots are fighting a losing battle, just as the defenders of Jim Crow and Apartheid before them. They do so out of hate, or fear or because they can’t imagine any other way. Simple demographics will settle the matter. None of the younger generation really wants to take up that ugly cause, and it will pass from the scene in 10 or 20 years time.



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Ronald S

posted July 22, 2010 at 6:39 pm


We can agree to disagree. And each one is entitled to his or her opinion. However, it is a sad fact that the gay culture has continued to push the boundaries in an effort for what they consider to be a normal lifestyle to be accepted by one and all. I remain convinced that this is not the desire of God Almighty. Nor, despite what Kenneth says, will the matter simply fade in 10 or 20 years.
I have read each of the postings. I don’t doubt the sincerity of what they say. But I cannot profess to be a Christian and accept homosexuality as either normal or acceptable. It is time to get away from the worldliness that threatens to engulf us and get back to God.
“Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world–the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life–is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.” (1 John 2:15-17)



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Don't know

posted July 22, 2010 at 6:42 pm


This discussion is interesting because we don’t know what will happen in 10 to 20 years. If Islam continues to grow in American and the world, the gay issue may be forced upon the public for a time (like it has been over the past 20-30 years; before then it was against the law and embarrassing to have any identity with it), but what will happen as Islam grows in power and influence, and as the traditional Hispanic immigrants keeping coming into American replacing Caucasians who have low birth rates. It doesn’t seems logical that this issue is just going to die or pass from the scene. What is Iran gets the bomb, and Al-quaida moves into even more influence in the US and the world?



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Mordred08

posted July 22, 2010 at 8:30 pm


I don’t see them giving up anytime soon. Because it is a war to conservative Christians, an epic struggle of good (them of course) against evil (LGBT people and their supporters). Look at these comments, and replace “homosexuality” with “Islam” or “terrorism”. It’s like the War on Terror for them, only they don’t have to go through boot camp and then go to the Middle East.
Normally I just mock them and the righteous cause that seems to be the only thing giving their lives meaning, but there’s a problem in just ignoring them. Sometimes in this war, there are casualties. People have killed and people have died. You can entertain whatever delusions you want in this country, but when those delusions lead to murder, suicide, etc…that’s crossing the line.
And as for what LGBT Americans will do if Al-Qaida becomes more of a threat: probably the same thing hetero Americans will do.



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nnmns

posted July 22, 2010 at 8:36 pm


The question of blacks and whites has faded from the scene. Well, most places anyway.
And many good people do call themselves Christians and support marriage for gays.
As far as gays not needing the legal protections of marriage, that would be for them to decide and testify about, not someone who has already decided they don’t need it.
And as far as the Bible being decisive, two things:
First, those few verses people quote against it are mostly clearly taken out of context, as happens so often when people are throwing Bible verses around.
And second, why not quote the Quran or some other holy book. Any is as valid a base for US laws as the Bible – not valid at all. If you want to live where the Bible rules move to the Vatican.



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nnmns

posted July 22, 2010 at 8:38 pm


Should have started “The question of blacks and whites marrying has faded from the scene.”



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Still Believe

posted July 22, 2010 at 9:21 pm


nnms,
The Bible has some clear writings about homosexuality. And God is ready to deliver those who turn to Him from this quagmire.
Romans 1:
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness . . 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, . . . 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools . . . 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. . . 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
1 Corinthians 6:
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
2 Peter 2:
6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men . . .9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
Jude
7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion [homosexuality]. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Lev. 20:13:
“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
2 Timothy 3
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
Jude
17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.



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Still Believe

posted July 22, 2010 at 9:24 pm


You can try to move those who want to believe and live by the Bible to the Vatican. What will happen when Jesus returns. I don’t think He will be confined to the Vatican.



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nnmns

posted July 22, 2010 at 10:02 pm


SB this will take a little while so bear with me.
Romans 1: 18-32 entirely, not just the parts you want to emphasize:
——————-
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
——————
So this is about some people who knew about God but didn’t do him justice; made animal images (probably referring to images of some competing religion of the time). So God turned them into people with various tendencies that our author didn’t care for and presumably the people would find unpleasant and perhaps dangerous. A strange way of punishing someone but that’s what this is all about: punishing people who didn’t believe properly. It’s not a commentary on homosexuality, it’s a claim as to what happened to some people who didn’t believe properly.
More to come.



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nnmns

posted July 22, 2010 at 10:04 pm


1 Corinthians 6: 1-11
——————
1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
——————
This is about who can judge and who can’t. And in a diatribe on that it lists some people to be excluded from Heaven: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
So effeminate people are listed with fornicators (those who have unmarried sex), idolaters, abusers of themselves with mankind (whatever that means), thieves, those who covet, drunkards, revilers and extortioners.
But from that long strange list you people pick out only the effeminate to abuse. You don’t rant about those who covet (could it be you covet?) or those who drink or those who revel or even extortionists. No, you pick on only the homosexuals. Talk about picking and choosing what part of the Bible to believe, you pick individual words out of whole lists.



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nnmns

posted July 22, 2010 at 10:08 pm


Peter2: 1-15
——————
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
——————
This is about false prophets and the things they lead people into: Walking after the flesh in the lust of uncleanliness (could mean all sorts of things; if he meant homosexuality he could have said so), despising government (note to Tea Partiers: look to your afterlives), speaking evil of things they don’t understand (global warming deniers for instance), adulterers, the covetous.
Again there’s a list of things here and homosexuality is not even clearly in it but despising government clearly is and speaking evil of things you don’t understand clearly is. Yet you people pretend you see homosexuality there and ignore some things of which you are probably guilty.
I could go on and on. You people make me sick. You quote selectively, you pretend the Bible says things it doesn’t and you pick a “sin” out of a list of “sins”, many of which you probably commit, but vent all your spleen on the one.
You’d better hope your religion is wrong because if it’s right you’ve probably got one angry God waiting for you to explain about mis-use of his Bible.



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Mordred08

posted July 22, 2010 at 10:18 pm


Still Believe: “Lev. 20:13:
‘If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.'”
Thank you. It’s very rare for a Christian to show such total honesty and admit that according to the Bible, their god calls for them to murder us. Most Christians, conservative and liberal alike, tend to pretend that verse doesn’t exist because it makes them uncomfortable.



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Still Believe

posted July 22, 2010 at 10:19 pm


Is this not a discussion on homosexuality? The Bible warns against it along with other sins. But, yet, the Bible does specifically warn against it. Should we not do the same? Should we not do what the Bible says and speak the truth in love? Did Jesus not warn people to repent of specific sins? The Apostle Paul? John the Baptist? Other prophets and people of God? Did they not address issues that were brought up with specific instruction? The Bible is full of such instruction.
Romans is saying that homosexuality is a sign that the practitioners have turned away from God. They have a false god. Homosexuality is the symptom. Repentance of idolatry is the cure. But that repentance, if we understand correctly, will also lead them away from their burning after others of the same sex, as it is God Himself that has turned them over to these shameful practices because of their belief in false god(s). Their repentance will be paralleled with a return to natural heterosexual love. Should we not help them to turn and return? To speak the truth in love?
Blessed in the nation whose God is the Lord.
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived effeminate [homosexual]shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.



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Dave

posted July 22, 2010 at 10:44 pm


Wow,
Sort of missed the point didn’t we.
Abortion rates increased and have now have started the reversal trend. That is the direct result of education, as abortion was brought out from the back alley and destigmatized with education you saw an initial increase in the undesired behaviour followed by a decrease as the behaviour became more commonplace and less taboo. Although the ultimate goal would be no to few abortions, the truth remains that there will always be a number of them. The wrong thing to do is to re-stigmatize or recriminalize because then education becomes caught in that legal limbo and all the hard work of the last 40 years is lost. It is a mistake to write that “pro-life” is winning. No-one wins and everyone loses if we return to a time when abortion was legally wrong. Morally is another story but I firmly believe that is between God and the woman, NOT God, the women and everyone else on Earth!
Homosexuality is an entirely different thing. We are not talking about an action, we are talking about part of a person and quite frankly how pompous of several of you to judge anyone else. I don’t know what makes a person gay, I don’t know what makes a person not-gay. I know the answer is not in a book (notice no capitals because the bible is not the word of God, it is the word of man and has a dubious history at that) but is in the mystery of the almighty. I also know that if it is on Earth there is a reason for it. I may not understand it but there is a reason for everything and I don’t believe in no devil or evil. Pretty sure everytime we label something evil that is just us not understanding the big picture.
I do know God wrote exactly 10 things and they seem pretty straight forward. Might all be better if we just stuck to the basics.
Not sure how islam started into the discussion but part of being an American is understanding that while relgion can play a part in your life, it does not belong in politics. That is why I answered the question as honestly as I see it. Conservative Christians are losing the war because they chose to fight something they should have just left alone. Part of the article pointed out that the youth are turning away from the religious right because they see these are not issues to fight because they have nothing to do with what is important. Better to put our Christian belief and power behind what is important. Making sure we take care of ourself (God gave you a great body)take care of it, making sure we take care of the Earth (again great planet) take care of it. Making sure our neighbors are taken care of (not judging them) you recieve more of a blessing by helping someone then by trying to convince them how wrong they are.
I also don’t believe, when he comes back that Jesus is going to give two figs for all the things we think he will. I have a feeling he is going to look at the ones who show true love and true compassion and rejoice with them. Those two boys arguing over toilet paper had more love for each other then half the boy / girl couples I’ve seen at the same store. Now who do you think Jesus is going to want to hang with?



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Still Believe

posted July 22, 2010 at 10:48 pm


Mordred08,
The Old Testament called OT believers (the Jewish nation) to use capital punishment in the case of what we call homosexuality.
The New Testament show that Jesus stopped a stoning and forgave the adulterous woman (John chapter 8) and sent her away with a warning.
Christians are followers of Christ, following his actions, trying to live out and preach His words. However, we also believe He will one day judge the world. This current era is the “favorable year of the Lord’ (Isaiah 61:2, Luke 3:19) but the “day of vengeance” (Isaiah 61:2) is coming when Jesus Himself returns. It is He that will judge and take vengeance at that time. It is not for the individual Christian today.
Although, many (except for perhaps the homosexual lobby)will see the common sense and the blessing we had in the US in the past when the official government position was homosexual behavior was shunned and prohibited, and even legally punishable. Marriage was valued, homes were (more) stable, divorce was low(er). I still think our country had its perspective correct in the past, encouraging heterosexual marriage, no such thing as no-fault divorce, and premarital sex was a sin. Abortion was also illegal. All this had a back drop of Christian ideas (just go to Washington DC and see what is written/engraved on our government building walls if there is doubt that Biblical ideology heavily influenced our country in the past).



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Dave

posted July 22, 2010 at 11:25 pm


Don’t want to get in anything but have to comment on this. Going back to the “way it was” is never the answer. If the way it was was so great – we never would have left it. The only way to go is forward to see what is next. Let the changes come and let us weather them together. Throwing anyone under the bus “legally punishable” isn’t going to help anyone. I don’t think God ever wants us to turn on our neighbor or judge them for being who they are or “help” them to overcome it. I think He expects us to learn to work together to build a better human race where differences are delightful (cause in the end we really are all the same) and give us something to chat about at the local park. Just pick the brand you like and let them pick the brand they like and we can all finish up our own shopping trip in our own time without someone trying to put their stuff in our cart.



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 12:00 am


The central issue in all this is God, and what he created us for, and us for. Diversity is inescapable as it is from God. However, certain things are unchangeable, others can be changed, taught, ingrained. When asked about divorce (and marriage), Jesus said (Matthew 19:4-6)
Have you not read, that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, “For this cause a man will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and the two will become one flesh”? Consequently they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
That is what Jesus believed about marriage, and it was based upon the way God ordered His creation. He also quoted the writings of Moses, word for word, showing He believed in their integrity and truthfulness some 1,500 years after Moses wrote them.
If there is anyone that I trust in this world, from what I read about Him, it is Jesus. And he gave a paradigm for marriage. Other New Testament writers show the same belief in God’s created order that Jesus did. And they also trust Jesus and what was written in the Old Testament. They had the same belief about marriage. So should Christians.
Personally, I see no reason to doubt that the Bible is the Word of God. Jesus believed the Old Testament was. he spoke and taught like it was. He lived like it was. And he had a firm view on marriage based upon God’s word, nature, and the creation order. We would do well to adopt the same.
If you don’t follow the owner’s and the repair manual when repairing your cars tranmission, you will screw it up. The maker of the car knows how it should run and be repaired. If you follow your own uneducated ideas, you will screw it up royally!
So, yes diversity is good, but



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Mordred08

posted July 23, 2010 at 12:01 am


Still Believe: “The New Testament show that Jesus stopped a stoning and forgave the adulterous woman (John chapter 8) and sent her away with a warning.”
Then send us away with a warning and stay the hell out of our lives. Or continue to be “persecuted”. Your choice.
“Although, many (except for perhaps the homosexual lobby)will see the common sense and the blessing we had in the US in the past when the official government position was homosexual behavior was shunned and prohibited, and even legally punishable. Marriage was valued, homes were (more) stable, divorce was low(er).”
“And you knew who you were then. Girls were girls and men were men. Mister, we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again. Didn’t need no welfare state. Everybody pulls his weight. Gee, our old LaSalle ran great. Those were the days!”



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 12:35 am


Mordred08,
I agree about staying out of someone else’s life. It is not I or others like me wanting change. Keep the old. Back off from our lives, government, and classrooms with the extreme gay agenda. Allow us to continue to have things run as they did, particularly when it comes to gay and straight relationships.
Instead, I would invite you to a new life and new relationship free of guilt and shame. God is good. Turn to Him and honor him.
It is appropriate to allow someone to have him opinion without threatening “persecution” and this is one of the reasons why I disagree with you. Look what you resorted to – threatening – if someone else disagrees with you. I don’t find Christians or straight people doing this in these discussion posts. I see discussion. Why the threats? I hope you don’t but sadly believe that you perhaps do represent your community. Prove me wrong!
All the best to you!



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Mordred08

posted July 23, 2010 at 1:14 am


Still Believe: “I would invite you to a new life and new relationship free of guilt and shame. God is good. Turn to Him and honor him.”
No. I don’t believe your god is good, and I do not want to honor him.



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 1:41 am


Mordred08,
From what you have written, it seems that you do believe He exists. I encourage you to pray to Him. If He is God, if is watching and listening now. You can talk to Him like you do to anyone else. Ask Him to prove that He is good. Dare Him. Challenge Him. Ask Him to show you why you should honor Him. Ask Him to prove that He is worthy of honor. I have prayed like this and had God answer tangibly many times. He has changed my life. The times I look back and I am ashamed are when I didn’t believe or honor Him. When I honored Him, He blessed me. He will do the same for you. Just put Him to the test. You won’t be disappointed!
Read the Bible and discover who Jesus really is. God came to us in Him.
Beautiful.



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Gwyddion9

posted July 23, 2010 at 2:40 am


I agree with you Mordred08. The god that conservative Christians like to chime about isn’t worth my effort, worship or acknowledgement.
I’ve always found it amusing when certain sects of Christians like to point out Leviticus, using their own interpretation of the passages. In speaking to several Rabbis’, they said that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not homosexuality but the lack of hospitality.
So, whom do I believe, conservative Christians with an agenda and who essentially usurped the book or those whose book it actually belongs to? No question in this matter.
I also like to ask these same Christians about the “other” abominations listed, as they are so quick to point out what they don’t like. How about stoning your disobedient child at the city gate? What about wearing mixed fibers in your clothing? What about eating sea food that doesn’t have scales…shrimp, lobster, clams, oysters, cat fish, etc.? My all time favorite…when the wife, girlfriend, fiancée has her period, she is considered UNCLEAN, so she has to be put in a tent away from everyone and the household lest it become defiled and unclean? Yeah, it’s all pick and choose for them. I’ve found when I mention these other “abominations”, I either hear, that “god” did away with them (who said) or they no longer have meaning…
Lets face it, abortion and SSM is a big money maker for many of the conservative Christian churches. And, they’re all about money and power!
SSM has nothing to do with morality but rather civil rights, which is one of the reasons conservative Christians are going to lose this battle. They want to make it a moral issue so they can drag in their “interpreted” religious beliefs and expect everyone to yield to it because it’s their religious beliefs. Not happening nor will it happen.
The fact that conservatives want to drag in religion as an excuse as to why SSM shouldn’t be allowed, which actually stands against the 14th Amendment.
These same Christians also complain about Islam and how it is trying to force “it’s” religious laws into the country but in the same breath, these same Christians are more than willing to do the exact same thing…hypocrites!
I view these types of “Christians” on an equal level as mosquitoes. They are a part of the natural order of things and even have a place in it (?) but like mosquito’s, are simply annoying pests you deal with once in a while.
SSM will be a reality and in all 50 states. The law suits challenging it is in the works. One of the supporters of SSM is a very knowledgeable and a very sought after lawyer, who also happens to be a member of the GOP. Many of his fellow GOP people are not pleased with his actions because they know if anyone can get it over turned and approved, He will!



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praesta

posted July 23, 2010 at 6:59 am


This thread has demonstrated more than a few realities about the culture wars. Every socio-moral contention eventually becomes a stalemate. Already on this thread I’ve seen the non-arguments of proof-texting, repeated name-calling, recriminations, and arguments based on entirely subjective variables. These behaviors are reminiscent of the nearly forty-year social and political abuse fest known as the abortion debate. Looks like SSM is the new-old battlefront.
While we bash each other verbally and never get anywhere, American families are not making ends meet, much of our wealth has been “outsourced” to China, and the US government has maxed out all its credit cards. Smacking each other with the Jewish and Christian Scriptures isn’t gonna make those “other things” go away.



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 10:04 am


Gwyddion9,
If we don’t know who to believe (about different Bible interpretations) should we not read the Bible for ourselves. Interesting it has been the best seller for many years, has shaped Western culture, and that Western our calender system is based upon the birth of its central figure. We should not put ourselves above the multitudes of people who venerated it and its central figure for two millennia, and have developed a culture and system we enjoy and is the est in the world (which we now want to radically and fundamentally change in new, destructive directions)?
If we don’t worship or acknowledge the God of “conservative Christians” (I assume you are referring to the God of the Christian Bible who sent Jesus into the world), which god should we worship and acknowledge? Allah. Buddist don’t believe in a Creator God. Hinduism has millions of gods (we could move to India to learn about them).
Praesta
Perhaps the reason for our national problems is that, on the deepest and most fundamental levels, we have turned our back on God the Creator and His wisdom. If He created the world, put it in order, and watches over it each day, then, as the Creator, can certainly help us to have a better economy and/or environment. He can help us improve our social and political lives, deal with corruption and greed, social injustice and poverty, disease and the ultimate questions of life. That is, unless we reject Him and His advice, and offend Him.
Even if we have rejected Him, we can still return and He promises to forgive us through Jesus’ death and help and bless us. Sounds like a good deal to me, one worth investigating! Having the Creator as a friend and helper seems awesome, although, if He disciples you, it can be painful. Especially since turning to Him, believing in Him, following His way has seemed to work very well in America’s past. (Compare us, our past, our technology, and our ideology with the other nations of the world over the past 200 years).
Instead of skirting the central issue – the Creator God, His existence, His wisdom and Word, and following his ways, we should investigate, all should be able and encouraged to do so.
The alternative seems not good, if we look at individual and corporate human history(s).
Like the Midas man said, “Pay me now or pay me later.”



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 10:31 am


Gwyddion9
“I also like to ask these same Christians about the “other” abominations listed, as they are so quick to point out what they don’t like. How about stoning your disobedient child at the city gate?”
I think Jesus gave the example about stoning as punishment, He didn’t do it. However, it is a warning for how much God hates childrens’ disrespect and disobedience towards parents (see the 5th commandment).
“What about wearing mixed fibers in your clothing?”
This was a lived-out object lesson to the Jews and other non-Jews that they were not supposed to mix and mingle non-Jewish practices with Old Testament law, even effecting their clothing (therefore, extremely important). However, I am not part of the Jewish nation that lived/lives in Palestine with prophet, priests and a king. I have a different King, Jesus
“What about eating sea food that doesn’t have scales…shrimp, lobster, clams, oysters, cat fish, etc.?”
These are dietary Old Testament dietary rules. The New Testament Gospel specifically states that Jesus declared all foods clean (Gospel of Mark 7:19).
“My all time favorite…when the wife, girlfriend, fiancée has her period, she is considered UNCLEAN, so she has to be put in a tent away from everyone and the household lest it become defiled and unclean?”
It no where says that the woman had to be put in a tent away from everyone else (you or other need to study to find out the truth before making statements). However, yes, her husband was not to have sex with her during that time, not even touch her physically. This is another strong teaching, this time about blood. Blood was the central part of the ceremonial sacrificial system of the tabernacle and Solomon’s temple. And it foreshadowed the importance of blood, the shedding of blood by Jesus (the giving of His life) for the sins of mankind; to obtain their forgiveness and restored relationships with the Creator God, who we have offended. On the practical/health side, back then there were no things like antibiotics so all bodily discahrges that spread disease were to be considered unclean and avoided for health’s sake (read the Old Testament for yourself if you don’t understand)
“Yeah, it’s all pick and choose for them. I’ve found when I mention these other “abominations”, I either hear, that “god” did away with them (who said) or they no longer have meaning…”
I think many rules and regulations in the Old Testament do have important lessons to teach – like about immorality and homosexuality – and some of them, if not many would be good to follow. However, Jesus has come and there have been changes. For example, the system of Jewish sacrifice is no longer needed as Jesus fulfilled it. We could say the same for others but you need to study yourself to figure what does apply to you and what you can learn.
God’s word is there to help and judge you and not you judge it.
Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/beliefbeat/2010/07/conservative-christians-losing-or-forfeiting-the-war-on-gay-marriage.html#preview#ixzz0uVy0lqsl



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Rob

posted July 23, 2010 at 12:06 pm


Many Christians are quick to point to what Moses and Paul wrote about a topic they did not fully understand, but Christ said that ALL THE LAW hangs on loving our neighbor as our self. Love means treat. If we do not treat our homosexual neighbor as we would be treated in every way, we violate what the Lord, Himself, said of His own Law.



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 12:29 pm


“Perhaps the reason for our national problems is that, on the deepest and most fundamental levels, we have turned our back on God the Creator and His wisdom.”
No, that makes no sense. Nations have always been said to do that and they’ve had good times and bad times.
It’s clear in this particular case the reason for our national problems is that we had the worst president in modern (or all) history running the country for eight years and for six of them Republicans were also in charge of both houses of Congress. And they ran the country hard and deep into a ditch.
The amazing thing is, some people seem to be willing to put them back in charge again.



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 12:48 pm


Rob,
Loving is not always fun or easy. A mother who may love a child may need to painfully pull out a thorn. This causes pain, more pain for a short time to relieve greater, long-term pain. That is true love, especially to put up with a crying wiggling child who even says you don’t love him/her, until the thorn is out and the pain is gone.
A surgeon causes real pain, even destruction, knowing that the long term results will be healing, health, comfort, and joy. Would we say he/she is unloving for doing surgery?
Remember that the one Bible verse you quoted is actually part of Jesus’ response to the question of “What is the greatest commandment?”. He actually gave two, and notice the order He put them in as recorded in Matthew’s Gospel, Chapter 22:
the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36″Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
The greatest commandment is to love the Lord God with all your heart soul, mind and strength. Jesus said if you loved Him you would keep his commandments (Gospel of John 14:23). What and where are God’s commandments? There are many, and they include prohibitions against idolatry, immorality, greed, covetousness (and, include, homosexuality)in the Old Testament.
The Bible states in ALL your ways acknowledge Him, and he will make your paths straight (that includes sexual relationships)Proverbs 3:5-6.
The first commandment is to love God. Love, serve, obey Him.
The second is to love your neighbor as yourself. and it is based upon, follows, and can not be separated from the first. Jesus says this second commandment is “like the first.” The first is the maxim. It is the plumb line. The discussion of God and how He defines love is and must be central to the second.
What does the Old Testament reveal about how God think of homosexuality, adultery, pre-marital sex and other types of immortality?
Loving my neighbor as myself would, therefore, be encouraging, helping him, showing him how to live for and please the one true Creator God and then be blessed.
It would also mean desiring for him what I want. if I am found in sin, foolishness, or error, or going down a wrong path, I would want someone to help me and love me enough to get involved and set me in the right direction.
If I had cancer, I would call a surgeon to remove it. I would also call a surgeon to remove cancer from someone else if I truly loved then. I would not turn my back, walk away, leave then alone to suffer, be consumed, and be destroyed. If I really loved my neighbor I would desire for them to go under the surgeon’s knife just like I would want for myself or my family. Is that not true love?
True love is found in this, that Jesus laid down His life for us and we also ought to lay down our lives for others. Jesus’ love involved much misunderstanding, hatred towards him, and suffering.
Love is often that way, especially since people are so full of covetousness, foolishness, and sin.
Jesus kingdom seems to us here on earth to be an upside-down kingdom.



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 12:59 pm


nnmns,
It makes perfect sense. If God exists and is not pleased with a nation and its people, he can cause chaos in it just like am unhappy parent can cause chaos in his home if he is unhappy.
Many people want to take God out of the picture. If you just make gay marriage legal, then gays won’t feel bad, guilty, ashamed. This is a doomed proposition because God gave everyone a conscious and although it can be dulled, it never totally stops aching when we are living in rebellion to God. Plus the Spirit of God is in the world today and He constantly speaks to people about their sins and rebellion, trying to turn them back to truth and peace.
Trying to take God out of the discussion is like putting a cap on the volcano. The cap will remain there until the volcano decides to erupt. God is very patience (I know from personal experience) but the Bible says He is also a consuming fire. He will speak when he wants and hopefully we will be found in agreement.
Remember: Play with fire and you will get burnt.



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 2:13 pm


“If we don’t know who to believe (about different Bible interpretations) should we not read the Bible for ourselves.”
Excellent idea. Even better to also study who actually wrote what and why, as Bible scholars do. But I don’t think there’s interest or perhaps expertise here for that so let’s see what the Bible says. Let’s start with Sodom and Gomorrah, so popular in these discussions:
We’ll start in Genesis 18 when God has come to chat with Abraham and told him His plans for Sodom and Gomorrah:
———-
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
… Abraham bargains with God for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah based on finding even a few righteous people …
32And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.
33And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
Genesis 19
… Now we get to the heart of it. Lot is sitting at the gate of Sodom. A greeter? Whittling? Forewarned angels are coming? Tries to steer people from the bad parts of town? The Bible doesn’t say. …
1And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
… Lot is very persuasive. These are angels charged with checking the conditions in Sodom, perhaps to kill everyone there if they can’t find ten righteous people, and Lot convinces them to spend the night at his house instead. …
4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
… Questions here:
1. Everyone came? Was it usual for everyone to come see a visitor to town? Maybe visitors were quite unusual? Or did they look angelic or something that would attract attention?
2. The meaning of “know”? Homophobic preachers have convinced some people it’s the “Biblical” sense of “know” but that doesn’t make sense with everyone there, old and young. Unless it was the custom in Sodom to gang rape visitors, in which case they deserved whatever they got for being such jerks. Most homosexuals, you surely know, don’t act that way so this really makes the conventional interpretation of this seem, well, wrong. Maybe they just wanted the news from out of town. …
6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Here’s the wickedest part of the story. We are expected to protect our daughters, but he’s offering them to the crowd to “do to them as is good in your eyes”. Or maybe he trusted the crowd?
Another point: these daughters “have not known man” which surely means they are virgins. But very soon we’ll see Lot has sons-in-laws. What’s going on in that household, and why aren’t these women with their husbands? …
9And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
… “This one fellow came in to sojourn and he will needs be a judge” What on earth does that mean? The Bible doesn’t say, but clearly the crowd thought it knew something special about these guys. …
10But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
… It must be great fun to be an angel. But shouldn’t they really be out finding out the situation in Sodom so as to wisely decide its fate? …
12And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
… Was God lying to Abraham when He said He’d spare Sodom for ten righteous people? Sounds like the decision was already made. …
14And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
… Here Lot wasn’t convincing at all. Could it be he wanted to get rid of them, perhaps he had an inkling of what would follow in a certain cave. …
15And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
18And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my LORD:
19Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
20Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
21And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
22Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
… Notice Gomorrahns had not done anything to anyone, at least in the story, but they get fire and brimstone too. And nobody checked for righteous people in Gomorrah even a little. …
25And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
26But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
… If God made a practice of doing that to people who disobeyed him you’d expect to see lots more pillars of salt and lots fewer people! …
———-
So here we see angels slacking off their jobs, God perhaps lying to Abraham and most important two towns being destroyed for reasons we cannot make out from this part of the Bible. But what seems as clear as anything is that the conventional, homophobic reading of this part of the Bible is wrong.



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 2:23 pm


“If you just make gay marriage legal, then gays won’t feel bad, guilty, ashamed.”
That’s not the point of legalizing gay marriage! How can you miss the point that far? If that were the point we’d legalize drunk driving so drunks won’t feel bad, guilty, ashamed. We’d legalize stealing government money in wartime so Republicans wouldn’t feel bad, guilty, ashamed.
No SB the reason for legalizing marriage for gays is the same as for straights: inheritance, clarity when one partner is sick, and the legal ability to live with the one you love.
Homophobics like to think marriage is for procreation but lots of people, gays and straights, get married with neither the intent nor the ability to procreate. And a lot of straights stay married long after they can procreate. And you clearly don’t have to be married to procreate or even to do a good job raising children, though mostly I think it helps.
No, SB, marriage is not for procreation despite the fact it often goes along with it.



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David

posted July 23, 2010 at 2:26 pm


I think that bigots eventually get bored.



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 3:09 pm


We should be so lucky, David.
SB: “The greatest commandment is to love the Lord God with all your heart soul, mind and strength.” Oh, and I will tell you how you have to do that.



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 3:26 pm


nnms,
The Oxford English dictionary says that a sodomite is: “One who practices or commits sodomy.” The dictionary states that sodomy is “1. An unnatural form of sexual intercourse, esp. that of one male with another.” Unnatural.Sex between men.
It is interesting that you have tried to change the semantic(dictionary), historical, and theological understanding of what a Sodomite is, although that understanding has been around for millennium, and understood that way by Western and Islamic society, Judaism, and for the Christian church and the Islamic religion since each was founded. What is the purpose behind your mis-informed isogesis? Or do you and other homosexuals want so badly to be relived of the stigma, guilt, and shame of homosexuality that you will defy disciples, logic, and common sense?
That can all be done by simply repenting of your sins and turning to Jesus’ forgiveness. He will forgive you and give you power and direction in your life to live for god, be blessed and have peace.
“Most homosexuals, you surely know, don’t act that way so this really makes the conventional interpretation of this seem, well, wrong. Maybe they just wanted the news from out of town….”
I agree that most homosexuals do not act the way the homosexuals did in Sodom. If they did they would be dead or in prison. Theat would stop quickly. Sodom’s problem was not just gang rape but immorality, but homosexuality is part of that. Homosexuality, by common sense understanding, is natural desire for the opposite sex gone wrong and unbridled. That is what was happening in Sodom. Homosexuality is still the same today, natural desire expressed wrongly (sinfully), unbridled. And now homosexuals also want to force there unhappy existences on us. Many of us refuse. We call them to turn to God.
The angels were sent after God heeded Abraham’s plees for mercy. Yes, they were angels. Yes they were there to investigate the evil of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Yes they found it. What is obvious is obvious. We should be warned, and that is what the Bible says.
Gay marriage should not be legalized because it does not exist. In gay marriage the penis does not enter the vagina and children are not born. It is not marriage. Gays want civil unions. I disagree because I believe gay sex is sin and our government should acknowledge God and His word. Plus I do not believe two gay people living together should get the same tax treatment or status as a man and wife couple who are the one who produce children for society. “Legalizing gay marriage’ is only endorsing what God rejects. If we continue we might be subject to a similar end to Sodom and Gomorrah corporately, and individually homosexuals to the same punishment as them in eternal destruction.
David,
“Bigot”?
It is usual that someone resorts to threats, name-calling, and hysteria after they find common sense and logic don’t work, especially when they are in error and don’t want to concede.



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Gwyddion9

posted July 23, 2010 at 3:56 pm


Still Believe,
You proved my point that you choose which is relevant and which, in your beliefs, is no longer relevant.
Conservative Christians talk about the “whole” bible as being the word of god so why pick and choose.
What I see is clearly a pick and choose situation here. If the other verses are no longer valid, why specifically pick homosexuality?
Why? because of your bias so you use a bible verse to justify your position. SSM is about civil rights and because of that, no religion should have the right to say what others can and cannot do in this country. Besides, There are plenty of Christian denomination that WILL marry a SS couple. There is a division in Christianity on this matter and no one sect agrees with the other. To somehow claim that someone is more or less Christian goes against your religion as it states that your God is the only one who can judge but I see it as being all to common for those who “speak” for god, to always know what god thinks. Because SSM is a civil issue, it will eventually be passed. Again, I don’t know how many Christians I’ve heard claiming how Islam wants to enforce Shiara laws on us and how wrong that is but these same Christians are so willing to have their religious beliefs made into laws. The hypocrisy is utterly amazing, which is why I never give conservative Christians a second thought.



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 3:58 pm


SB, I am not a homosexual. I thought I’d point that out so you can ponder the idea of someone empathizing with a group of people, not including himself, who are picked on. Several people hereabouts who are not homosexuals support their rights. They are better people than those who pick on groups they consider different than themselves.
And I’m not trying to change the definition of sodomy. Do you read that badly or do I write that badly? If the latter I apologize. But I suspect the former.
I am, currently, pointing out that if we give your Bible a lot of credence it doesn’t deserve it still can’t be used as a weapon against homosexuals like you homophobes use it.
You take quotes out of context, you choose one “sin” from a list and go on and on about it while ignoring the others (many of which you no doubt commit). You either can’t read well or you pretend parts of the Bible mean things they clearly don’t. Or perhaps you just don’t read your Bibles much.



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 4:26 pm


Jude 7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
———–
Fornication: adultery: extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations
Nothing there about homosexuality. “strange flesh” could I suppose mean nonstandard sexual attractions but it could also mean, e.g. Jews eating pork. If God meant to give a message there He lost a real opportunity. Again this speaks against the conventional homophobic interpretation of the Sodom and Gomorrah fable, not for it.
———-
Leviticus 8-24: 8And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.
9For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
10And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11And the man that lieth with his father’s wife hath uncovered his father’s nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
12And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
14And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
15And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
16And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
17And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter, or his mother’s daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister’s nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.
18And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
19And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother’s sister, nor of thy father’s sister: for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.
20And if a man shall lie with his uncle’s wife, he hath uncovered his uncle’s nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.
21And if a man shall take his brother’s wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother’s nakedness; they shall be childless.
22Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.
23And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
24But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.
———-
So God gave these commandments to the Jews. And I suppose they are still in effect for Jews, but I’m not a Jew either. Let’s look at a few of these:
“every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death” would commit us all to death because at some time or other we’ve all done that.
“the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death” That could put a real crimp in the population. I read for example Newt Gingrich may run for president but if this were in force he’d have died a painful death a few times.
“if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.” So I guess there need to be Period Police who go around making sure no couple does the bloody.
And yes there’s a prohibition here against male homosexuality but many of the other prohibitions are ignored, even I’m sure by Jews, and this one is no bigger than them. So it should be ignored too or they should all be attended to.
You homophobes are nothing if not inconsistent.



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 4:38 pm


Gwyddion9 & nnms,
If a man eats food and it needs salt, he gets the salt shaker (he dosen’t add all the spices he has in his house). He chooses what is needed and applies to the situation at hand.
If a man needs a screwdriver to tighten a screw, he gets it and uses it, he doesn’t go through his tool box one by one, discussing each tool and trying it when he already knows what is needed and applies.
If you go to see your friend and he wants to ask about cars you don’t tell him about fish and eggs.
Why do you evade the topic. Why can’t you specifically deal with the realities of what the Bible – said to by the Word of God – and Christian faith say about the topic of Gay marriage. If you don’t like this, why are you on this website?
The topic is gay marriage (and only homosexuals practice it so why should we not discuss it specifically?). The forum is beliefnet. The title is about conservative Christians and gay marriage. Why would we not discuss what the Christian faith, Conservative Christians, and what the book they refers to, say about the topic being discussed: Gay marriage. Why don’t you want to get down to the nitty-gritty of discussing the topic.
You are right, the Bible is not a weapon to be used against homosexuals. It is God’s message to us of how mankind has been rebelling against him from the beginning, in many ways, and how he has continued since the beginning to call them back to himself. However, God is calling homosexuals from their rebellion and we should help them to understand this.
Many people’s problem is that they have been indoctrinated by the liberal media and liberal education, where they have been taught distorted ideas about tolerance where the only ones shown tolerance are those who don’t agree and the rest are not tolerated. Every since the Bible and prayer were removed from the classrooms, people have been taught silently and with words and deeds, to reject God and the Bible. Why are people so afraid of God and the Bible if they are myths and Christians are wrong? Doesn’t truth ultimately prevail? What happened to freedom of inquiry? What happened to freedom of speech and religion – practiced only outside the public school – there we cannot talk about God or the Bible?
You and I and all others should allow this discussion to go forward, not calling names or threatening if we disagree.
And we should recognize the Creator God. We will all stand before God in judgment one day. If you disagree, what are you doing on belief.net?



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 4:41 pm


Homosexuality is spoken against in the New Testament, both in warnings against homosexuality and in warning against immorality. You don’t have to go to the Old Testament to understand homosexuality is immoral.



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 5:03 pm


So you’re giving up the Old Testament. Strategic retreat. Wise.
Where is it spoken of in the New Testament? And where did Jesus specifically mention homosexuality?



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 5:06 pm


And what does the Bible say about gay marriage? Clearly and obviously about gay marriage? Something written as part of an instruction manual for life by an all-wise being who knows how to get His point across?



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 5:09 pm


Oh, and where were you threatened? Or was that just that you don’t usually argue with people who use what your Bible says rather than agreeing to what you say it says?



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 5:24 pm


This is from the New Testament, Jesus speaking.
———-
Luke 17: 28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
———-
So Jesus had the perfect opportunity to give the conventional homophobic interpretation of the Sodom and Gomorrah tale but he did not. In fact he didn’t mention homosexuality or anything; just people going about their day when suddenly “it” rained fire and brimstone. Interesting, but especially as one more nail in the coffin of the Christian version of the conventional homophobic interpretation of the Sodom and Gomorrah tale.



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Gwyddion9

posted July 23, 2010 at 5:50 pm


It simply proves my point that conservative pick and choose.
They’re cafeteria Christians, picking what they like and don’t like.
Conservatives make this comment about other Christians who don’t believe as they do but are just as guilty as the same thing.
Personally, I have no horse in part of this race as I’m Wiccan, as far as the bible is concerned. It’s not authoritative to me at all but I am a gay man, who recognizes that some will never accept SSM, which I really don’t care if they ever do but SSM WILL be a reality. Conservatives will do what they do best, whine and speak of god’s wrath, etc. but the world will go on and for all their prophesying on the matter will simply be seen as nothing more than nay sayers and false prophets and ignored even more by the general populace. Telling everyone in this country that they should live by your beliefs is wrong and more importantly, will never be done.



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 6:02 pm


Why are you seeking an argument from silence?
Please note that there is no suppot for gay marriage in scripture.
Here is what Jesus stated about marriage:
4″Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
Marraige is male and female. It is mongameous. It can not be ‘seperated’ (no divorce – see exception in following verses). This is ordained by God.
That is Jesus version of marriage.
Marraige is between one man and one woman for life.
Now please give simple verses to show gay marriage in the Scripture.
Are you one of the godless men spoken about in scripture?
Jude
4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
18 “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
2 Peter
there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 6:56 pm


Gwyddion9,
“It simply proves my point that conservative pick and choose.
They’re cafeteria Christians, picking what they like and don’t like.”
When food needs salt you don’t gather, use, and discuss every spice in the kitchen. This discussion is about gay marriage. Read the title. Should we not specifically deal with that issue and what Scripture says about it?
Yes, of course.
“Telling everyone in this country that they should live by your beliefs is wrong and more importantly, will never be done.”
Both sides are doing just that, not just Christians but also the gay marriage people. I just happen to believe my beliefs are correct and I believe in God and want his blessing for both you and me. The government has, for years, forced people to accept and follow heterosexual marriage. They have forced their beliefs on us for years. It will and has been done and will continue!
Forcing people to live by ‘someone’s’ beliefs is done all the time everyday!
I must drive at 55mph.
I cannot pray in public school.
I cannot shot and kill someone without due cause.
I cannot have sex with underage children.
I cannot yell “fire” in a theater when there is none.
Come to reality and understand that someone is going to ‘force’ their beliefs on someone else. I am concerned that what is ‘forced’ on others is pleasing to God.



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 7:12 pm


SB none of those verses you quoted is clearly about homosexuality. You read what you want to read.
Oh, and you can pray in public school. You just can’t force someone else to join you. And as I believe Jesus is supposed to have said, don’t make a spectacle of yourself.



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 7:45 pm


nnms,
Show me from Scriptures that gay marriage is supported by Scripture just like I showed you that heterosexual marriage is spoken and delineated by Scripture. You cannot. Such ideas do not exist in Scripture. Gay marriage is an aberration. Admit that and join those who are espousing what the Bible clearly teaches. Admit homosexuality is sin. It is a rejection of God’s design. It has no place in Christian practice or ideology.
Here are verses that are clear on homosexuality:
1 Corinthians 6:9
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
Leviticus 20:13 (New International Version)
13 ” ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
There is no where in Scripture that the word Trinity is used and yet Christians, by studying and understanding Scripture as well as church history have believed and practiced Trinitarian Theology from the beginning. But the aberration of homosexuality is even clearer, yes clearly mentioned in Scripture. Why can you not accept this? Are you blinded spiritually, still needing God to remove the veil of unbelief taken away when Jesus comes into your life and gives you His Holy Spirit?
Gay marriage is clearly neo-paganism. If you want to live for the God and Father of Jesus Christ, you will come to understand that truth and reject gay marriage and gay lifestyles and help others to do the same.
May God give you that faith and grace to do just that and honor and live for the one true God and for Jesus His Messiah!



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Mordred08

posted July 23, 2010 at 7:58 pm


Still Believe: “Leviticus 20:13 (New International Version)
13 ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.'”
You keep bringing up that verse. You say you guys have no intention of killing us but you keep bringing up that damn verse that says “kill the homosexuals”. Why should I believe you for one second?



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Still Believe

posted July 23, 2010 at 8:35 pm


Mordred08,
nnms said that none of the verses I quoted are about homosexuality. I included two.
Who wants to kill you? The Bible says that God wants no one to die or to ‘perish’. However, He always follows through on His promises. If you don’t repent of your homosexuality you will suffer the consequences but it is not Christians like I who are interesting in harming you. However, many do oppose any gay agenda or lifestyle.
You need to repent of yoursin and rebellion before God (just like we all do) and believe in Jesus as your savior:
Read what Jesus said and who He is:
I am the light of the world. John 8:12
I am from above. I am not of this world. John 8:23
I came from God 8:42
before Abraham was born, I am! 8:58
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. 10:9
30I and the Father are one.”
“I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?“ 11:25-26
41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” 14:6-7
I am in the Father, and the Father is in me 14:10



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 9:10 pm


The only Bible quotes you can find either don’t mention homosexuality, it’s debatable or it is mentioned in a long list of “sins”, others of which you people currently ignore.
And Jesus didn’t say anything about it, even when he had a great opportunity like I mentioned above.
Oh, and your religion is only your religion. It’s not mine and not a lot of other peoples’ and no-one’s religion has any place determining our laws. You’ll feel that way to if, e.g. Catholics or Muslims get in the majority.
And now I’m leaving.



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nnmns

posted July 23, 2010 at 9:11 pm


The only Bible quotes you can find either don’t mention homosexuality, it’s debatable or it is mentioned in a long list of “sins”, others of which you people currently ignore.
And Jesus didn’t say anything about it, even when he had a great opportunity like I mentioned above.
Oh, and your religion is only your religion. It’s not mine and not a lot of other peoples’ and no-one’s religion has any place determining our laws. You’ll feel that way to if, e.g. Catholics or Muslims get in the majority.
And now I’m leaving.



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Gwyddion9

posted July 23, 2010 at 10:02 pm


Well, the day they want to kill and do the ‘eye for an eye’ thing,
will be the day that I give them just as much mercy as they’ve shown others gay men and women.
These types of Christians are the American Taliban types. It’s ok to justify killing or whatever else they want, after all, they’re the only ones who are right.
Honestly, the day one needs a “book” to show and tell them how to treat others who are different from themselves, is truly a sad day for all humanity. If your heart and mind are already poisoned, no book will make a difference in this fact, other than to give them an excuse for their actions. I am, however, thankful that all Christians are not like these people. Otherwise, this religion would be a total waste.
Still believe, I really think the only ones fooled are those like your self, who use a sacred book to justify their actions. On the positive side of the matter, it allows society to see the real heart of these people. To see just how deluded, dark and evil they truly are. The funniest part of all is that they claim to worship Jesus, which they really do not. They worship a book of their own interpretation and are false to the core.



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ArB

posted July 24, 2010 at 1:15 pm


I’d like to believe that more Christians are really studying what the bible really says and doesn’t say about the issue.



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Janet Greene

posted July 28, 2010 at 4:20 pm


It’s discouraging that there are so many christians that still consider this a moral issue. Seems like religion turns true morality on its head – for example, the bible condones mysogeny, genocide, and slavery. On the other hand, even though the 10 commandments would have been a great opportunity to say something about true social evils, it is conspicuously silent on child abuse, oppression of women, and destruction of the environment. The fact that people pore over this book to see what “god wants” is saddening. People – all you need is a conscience and some common sense. And homosexuality is not a moral issue.



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Martine

posted July 30, 2010 at 11:10 am


All have fallen short and need God’s forgiveness according to the Bible. While I may not agree that homosexuality is a healthy lifestyle choice,my personal opinion aside, it is, according to the Bible, a sin. It is no more or less a sin, according to the Bible, than heterosexuals who have sex outside of marriage. The conservative Christian movement has done a disservice to Christians who are striving to love everyone by alienating themselves and singling out homosexuality as one of the “worst” sins. Again, “all have fallen short” including people telling homosexuals they are going to hell. I only wonder what God will say to these “Christians” who spend much of their time telling people where they are going when they die. The central message of Christianity is forgiveness and love, not judgement. “Judge not lest ye be judged” comes to mind. Look in the mirror, bigoted Christians. We are called to love all, not pick and choose who we love based on choices they have made. Sadly, I fear that the true message of Christianity has been so perverted that many will never get to know what it truly preaches: working together with love to make a better tomorrow, treating ALL with dignity and respect. Christianity has been reduced to gay marriage and abortion rights, and it saddens me as a believer and follower of Christ.



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MJG

posted August 3, 2010 at 10:20 pm


The Bible does in deed say that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23) And it’s clear from Scripture, and daily life, that even Christians do sin. However, it is the willing, unashamed life of perpetual sin that cuts someone off from God. By continuing to revel in it I am showing that I care more about it than God. We are to love our neighbors and try to help them, but we must never condone what God explicitly forbids. Also, Jesus taught that all of Heaven rejoices when even one sinner repents and turns to God. This sin of homosexuality is not so harsh as to keep you from the hands of a loving Savior, if only you’ll turn to Him.
Perhaps if the people condemning Christianity and the Bible would actually read it, they wouldn’t be so quick to offer up parroted accusations with no foundation. Haven’t seen a single valid, or even new, accusation here yet.



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Barb

posted August 4, 2010 at 5:39 am


True christians don’t hate gays…they pray for them…..God’s Word tells the homosexual that he will not see the Kingdom of God….doesn’t get any clearer than that…we can not put our spin on the Holy Bible. You either live it or not. We have (as a nation) kicked God out of our society and in so doing have let the devil in. God help us.



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Grumpy Old Person

posted August 4, 2010 at 1:34 pm


An important question that no one here has even bothered to ask …
WHICH Bible? There are dozens of “versions” – which one is the right one. (Clue: they don’t all include the word “homosexual” – since it was only coined about 100 years ago.)
And, since gay men don’t “lie with women” in any manner, isn’t the passage about “lying with mankind as with womenkind” actually addressed to BI-sexuals?
And how DID one “lie with women” in the Bronze Age? Oh right – hey were chattel, things that could be owned.
Sorry SB, but I gotta side with (the ever pation) Gwyddion9, nnmns, Mordred08, et al, who seem to have made mincemeat of your ‘arguments’.



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your name

posted August 6, 2010 at 11:27 am


please allow me to give some, but not all references in the Holy Bible, may i suggest the king james version or the new king james version or the new american standard Bible? to start Genesis chapter 1. Matthew chapters 5-7 (the sermon on the mount), matthew chapter 19 verses 1-12. Romans chapter 1. the book of John (chapter 21, verses 15-19). please feel free to read the whole Book.
also, a (strong’s) concordance to look up words in the original hebrew, aramaic and greek languages. some times one word in english has two or more words in the original. for example the word “love” in english, has at least three different words and meanings in the original.
The One True God knows where we are, meets us there (if we are willing), and works with us there, always. try it!



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Danny

posted August 9, 2010 at 2:31 am


I can not change the Bible and no matter on pc we like to be. I think there need to be two forms of marriage allow here in us secular and religious marriage like do they do France. I am for gay marriage on human right issues and freedom for all. But I can not be for it in Christian sense, because I do not believe i have right to change the bible either.



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Grumpy Old Person

posted August 9, 2010 at 11:41 am


Danny,
Maybe YOU can’t “change the Bible”, but so many, many others have. Which is the reason I asked which VERSION of the Bible is the ‘correct’ one to use. They do not all agree with each other; they use different words; they sometimes tell different stories, etc.
And then, after that, comes the ‘interpretation’ of The Word. As per the endless comments quoting The bible (for both sides, btw), not everyone interprets it the same way.
Lastly, a hint: there already are (at least) two different forms of marriage – civil marriage and Holy Matrimony, so you already have your own ‘out’ from the debate – NO church/synagogue/mosque/temple/midrash (or any other ‘religious’ body) will EVER be forced to marry people they don’t want to.
Meanwhile, the freedom of religion of those faiths that do embrace SSMs should not be infringed upon by others whose tenets differ.



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Needle

posted August 11, 2010 at 1:46 pm


No matter how many pro gay marriage laws are passed, no matter how many activist judges and politicians advance their own agenda by approving gay marriage, no matter how many homosexuals get “married”, millions of people, including me, will never recognize gay marriages as being legitimate. And nothing will ever change that. Lately America and other countries have been subjected to an “in your face” attitude by people who illegitimately desire some sort of bizarre empowerment – good for them. But to us, they just ain’t married.



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Grumpy Old Person

posted August 16, 2010 at 3:59 pm


Needle,
No matter how many anti-gay, anti-equality, anti-justice comments are made, gay people will continue to love and form relationships and be part of society. And nothinng will ever change that.
Likewise, nothihng will ever change the fact that tens of thousands of LGBT couples ARE legally wed. What you happen to think of them is quite irrelevant. As irrelevant as the ‘majority’ and their apparent disapproval of inter-racial or inter-faith marriages. They’re real too, despite what you haters happen to think of them.
To us, you just ain’t logical. Nor reasoned.



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SolInvictus

posted August 17, 2010 at 6:01 pm


Grumpy old person states tens of thousands of same sex marriages have been done. That is blatant propaganda and in no way true. IN fact when given the option of marriage in states that are legal most same sex couples do NOT choose marriage. Here is a simple guide, same sex people make up 5% or more of the adult same sex population. In California there are 38 million people, 18,000 marriage licenses were issued when same sex marriage was legal, nearly half of those from out of state couples. 5% of 38 million is 1.9 million or more same sex people.
Out of at least 1.9 million adult same sex people in California less than 10,000 California residents chose marriage. The same in every other state where it is legal. 97% or more of same sex people do not choose marriage even if it is offered.
Grumpy labels those who do not buy into the same sex anarchy as haters homophobes etc. That is so far removed form the truth as to stretch the bounds of credulity.
What we have here is a tyranny of sexual anarchists out to destroy marriage. This is what they said they will do, they have admitted it in published writings by various same sex activists, and now they have shown their hand.
Marriage is and always will be between a man and a woman. Same sex couples can call their relationship anything they want but one thing it is not is marriage.



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Erich

posted August 18, 2010 at 2:39 pm


@SolInvictus
You are trying to compare the number of same-sex marriages performed in the year or so that it was legal in California to the entire “same-sex” ( I think you mean gay) population of California as a basis for your arguement that gay people don’t want to marry? Does that make any sense to you?
Moreover, so what? The question on their table is their right to do so. If there was only one interracial couple in CA, would that make the argument that everyone should have the right to do so any less vaild?
//What we have here is a tyranny of sexual anarchists out to destroy marriage//
Nothing like baseless hyperbole lol. So if same-sex marriage were legalized nationwide, tomorrow, what effect (actual, measureable, not imagined) would that have your marriage or that of other heterosexual couples???
//Marriage is and always will be between a man and a woman. Same sex couples can call their relationship anything they want but one thing it is not is marriage.//
Isn’t that the beauty of living in America? You are perfectly entitled to your feelings, and can share them with the world in a effort to persuade them. Same sex marriage couples have the same right and, yes can call it whatever they want, including marriage.
I am amazed that we think it’s any of our business.



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Grumpy Old Person

posted August 18, 2010 at 10:07 pm


“That is blatant propaganda and in no way true.”
Sorry, but you are demonstrably, provably wrong. Again. 18,000+ marriages in California alone in the 6 months wherein it was legal. Massachusetts has had more than 8,100, so that’s more than twenty six thousands marriages.
Do I have to list all the other jurisdictions’ counts too to further prove the depths of false witness your side will go to?
Nor did I use the word “homophobes” (another lie) though that clearly applies, so I’ll use it now.
You’re not only haters and homophobes, you’re blatant liars too.



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Kurt Cecil

posted August 19, 2010 at 1:20 pm


Even Ceasar Augustus knew that marriage between a man and a woman was the backbone of society. In the Roman Empire in his time, homosexuality was widespread so he made laws to encourage people to marry and have children.
I find it sad that a deviant minority is attempting to redefine marriage to gain legitimacy for their deviance at the expense of society. The secular left has done so much damage to marriage over the last 50 years that it probably won’t survive the “homosexual marriage” assault. Where marriage goes, so will our society.



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Erich

posted August 19, 2010 at 8:23 pm


@Kurt
ROFL.
I’ve yet to see anything other than lip service to the ‘evils’ of gay marriage. If you woke up tomorrow and there were a million married gay couples, how exactly would heterosexual marriage have been ‘assaulted’? Will all the straight couples enjoy each other less or something ? Where exactly will society have ‘gone’ at that point? How will your, presumably heterosexual, life be tangibly affected.
18,000 gay people got married in CA, before the all the drama started. Did the water quality go down? Did the crime rate go up? Norway, Iceland, Sweden, etc have had it for years. Have you heard anything about their societal collapse since they decided to let two adults make a decision that only affects the two people involved ????
I don’t ‘believe’ in gay marriage either, for me. I like girls. But I’m not so insecure that I have to manufacture a threat or harm from someone else’s preferences, that ultimately have 0 effect on my marriage or life in general.



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guess again

posted August 30, 2010 at 7:30 pm


“Even Ceasar Augustus knew that marriage between a man and a woman was the backbone of society.”
Great Caesar’s ghost, Kurt, the way you type, one would think that this “backbone” had been excised. In reality, we’re adding more strength to the backbone.
Nothing in gay marriage – mine or anyone else’s, takes anything away from you betterosexuals and your right to continue to choose to marry the person you love. Nothing.
Take a deep breath.



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Grumpy Old Person

posted August 31, 2010 at 2:35 pm


Sol,
“What we have here is a tyranny of sexual anarchists out to destroy marriage.”
Odd, then, that we are fighting very hard to enter into the institution. That you ‘think’ that our equal participation in it will “destroy” it exposes what you really think about God’s gay and lesbian children.
“Marriage is and always will be between a man and a woman.”
Wrong again. (Terrific ‘batting average’ you have there.) First of all, the tense is wrong (as usual). It was between 1 man and 1 woman of the same race and of the same faith and “for life”. None of those 3 additional delimeters still stands today. So much for the ‘it was always this way’ crapola.
“Same sex couples can call their relationship anything they want but one thing it is not is marriage.”
Many faiths disagree with you. And so do several states and countries. I have been legally married for more than 6 years.
Do better (and stop lying).



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son-of-a-gay

posted May 23, 2011 at 2:31 pm


As the adult child of a gay couple, and a Christian, I have to say shame on most of you. My fathers, although never legally allowed to adopt my brother and me, raised us from the time I was two and my brother was an infant. My birth parents, who were engaged in a “Godly” heterosexual marriage, were drug addicts, both of whom later became HIV positive. My dads were our angels. They saved us from a life of God-knows-what. They were NOT alcoholics, promiscuous, drug users, pedophiles, or disease spreaders. One was a lab tech for a pharmaceutical company, and the other worked at a well-known museum restoring works of art. We had a very normal middle-class life. They didn’t raise us to be gay. They raised us to be ourselves. They were protective of me, as any father would be, when I went on my first date, which wasn’t allowed until I was 17. My fathers still reminisce about how much of a flirt my brother was with the little girls at the park when he was only a toddler. It was understood that he was not gay, and there was no expectation that he would be. When I asked about our unusual family structure as a young child, I was not indoctrinated into the “gay agenda” or exposed to propaganda. I was never told I had to choose a side. I was simply told that some men love other men, and some women love other women, and that’s just the way the world is. I was left to decide for myself how I felt about that. We, as a family, attended church, went out for dinner, went to movies and birthday parties, celebrated milestones, and visited relatives for the holidays. We had friends over, and went to friends’ homes for hangouts and sleepovers and pool parties. We had rules and curfews and expectations to do well in school. We had limits. There were toys that were too expensive, and later, skirts that were too short. There were denied requests for more freedom than what any reasonable parent would be willing to grant. We had our share of dirty looks and harsh words from so-called Christians, but my dads have always said, and still say, that I need not concern myself with the judgement of others. It is my job to live the best life I am able to, and to let go of anger and never pass judgement on anyone. God, after all, doesn’t need anyone else to do His job. Looking back, I don’t regret a second of it. I am the person I am because they were the parents they were. My brother and I are both very well-educated, successful, and happy individuals in loving and successful heterosexual marriages. And we are proud to take our children to visit “Pappi and Gramps”. We can only hope to be half the parents they were for us. And now, working as a therapist for public social services clients, I can tell you with a degree of certainty that the loose morals of our youth have little to do with the gay community. Violence and intolerance are far more threatening to our next generation.



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Chris

posted March 13, 2012 at 11:11 pm


Son-of-a-gay,

What great parents you had – FAR,FAR superior to the egotistical, I’m holier than you, evil Christians. Around the world gays are being persecuted and killed. Here in America it is an emotional persecution, a shunning, inferior treatment, harassment from childhood on, firing from jobs due to orientation, that sort of thing. In Muslim countries it is out and out murder. It would be like that here too if the religions were left free. I continue to be appalled at this treatment of human beings.



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