What do you believe?
Baruch18
Here what makes much more sense.
Jewish Law and Tradition have been flexible enough through the centuries to bend and not break, ensuring the survival of Judaism. However, with the advent of the printing press, something very happened - the Shulchan Aruch was published and circulated throughout the Jewish world. Isolated communities were desparate practices were brought into line, standardized under one code, one Halacha, one book. But, that book was not the Torah, it was the Shulchan Aruch. You may think it was handed down at Sinai, but all historal and practical observation says otherwise. Our own practices even at the time of its writing were different from one community to another. So, who is to say who really had the correct version, the same version as Moshe? Joseph Karo knew? Did he, like Moshe, confer personally with Hashem to resolve these difference? Hmmmm.
8/6/2002 10:40:09 AM
To: baruch shm... cont'dHere what makes much more sense.
Jewish Law and Tradition have been flexible enough through the centuries to bend and not break, ensuring the survival of Judaism. However, with the advent of the printing press, something very happened - the Shulchan Aruch was published and circulated throughout the Jewish world. Isolated communities were desparate practices were brought into line, standardized under one code, one Halacha, one book. But, that book was not the Torah, it was the Shulchan Aruch. You may think it was handed down at Sinai, but all historal and practical observation says otherwise. Our own practices even at the time of its writing were different from one community to another. So, who is to say who really had the correct version, the same version as Moshe? Joseph Karo knew? Did he, like Moshe, confer personally with Hashem to resolve these difference? Hmmmm.
Baruch18
Again, jrw3800 says it so well!
You honestly believe that the Shulchan Aruch and the Five Books of Moses (Torah) are one and the same book? Funny, why did it take over two thousands years to write it down? Or, could it be that the Oral tradition was really a process of synthesis over the ages that reflected the interpretation of Torah by the Jews at any given period? How is it that there are practices in the Shulchan Aruch that weren't practiced 1,000 years before it was written? If it all goes back to Moshe on Sinai, why has it changed? Why have you added to it?
I do not reject the Oral Tradition, but what I and many other Jews to not accept is that the Talmud and the Shulchan Aruch were signed, sealed, and delivered at Sinai to Moshe from Hashem.
8/6/2002 10:27:18 AM
To: baruch shm...Again, jrw3800 says it so well!
You honestly believe that the Shulchan Aruch and the Five Books of Moses (Torah) are one and the same book? Funny, why did it take over two thousands years to write it down? Or, could it be that the Oral tradition was really a process of synthesis over the ages that reflected the interpretation of Torah by the Jews at any given period? How is it that there are practices in the Shulchan Aruch that weren't practiced 1,000 years before it was written? If it all goes back to Moshe on Sinai, why has it changed? Why have you added to it?
I do not reject the Oral Tradition, but what I and many other Jews to not accept is that the Talmud and the Shulchan Aruch were signed, sealed, and delivered at Sinai to Moshe from Hashem.
jrw3800
First of all, I do not reject the Torah. I simply reject your anachronistic, literalist way of understanding it.
Second of all, I have provided concrete historical proof that something you claim was always forbidden was in fact permitted by rabbinical authorities in ancient times. If you can provide any counter-proofs, please do so. But don't assassinate my character simply because you have nothing more substantial to argue than "this has always been the mesorah because my rebbe says it is."
Why, I would respond to you, should I accept the opinion of Rambam and Rashi over that of Cohen, when Cohen has shown that sages much earlier than Rambam and Rashi contradict them? After all, we're supposed to buy the whole "one generation further from Sinai" argument every time an Orthodox person doesn't want to permit any change in Jewish law or custom.
8/6/2002 10:11:55 AM
baruch_shmuelovitz,First of all, I do not reject the Torah. I simply reject your anachronistic, literalist way of understanding it.
Second of all, I have provided concrete historical proof that something you claim was always forbidden was in fact permitted by rabbinical authorities in ancient times. If you can provide any counter-proofs, please do so. But don't assassinate my character simply because you have nothing more substantial to argue than "this has always been the mesorah because my rebbe says it is."
Why, I would respond to you, should I accept the opinion of Rambam and Rashi over that of Cohen, when Cohen has shown that sages much earlier than Rambam and Rashi contradict them? After all, we're supposed to buy the whole "one generation further from Sinai" argument every time an Orthodox person doesn't want to permit any change in Jewish law or custom.
baruch_shmuelovitz
8/5/2002 10:08:47 PM
Another thing I don't understand is why inreach is not given the utmost priority. Talmud tells us that losing a soul of a Jew is like losing the world. We have a 58 percent intermarriage rate and Jews who don't know torah if you hit them with a sefer on the tuchus. Lets save our neshomas one at time bezrat hashem.
baruch_shmuelovitz
8/5/2002 10:07:25 PM
by the way... I think you got me wron also. I would definitely insist that if a non-Jew confront you and ask you about G-d you explain to him/her their role to play in Hashem's world. Being obligated by 7 mitzvot gives the non-Jews less obligations than we have to fulfill. If they see this as a wound to their dignity and go back to worship yoshke that is their business.
baruch_shmuelovitz
8/5/2002 10:04:34 PM
Lets even imagine that the rabbonim would want to convert non-Jews en masse. In order to reach that conclusion they would have to convene a special comittee of gedolei torah and discuss this crucial topic. They would not, like the reform movement, call torah obsolete and implement patrilineal descent. This is NOT the way decisions are made in klal yisrael.
baruch_shmuelovitz
You mention that Yoseph Karo (who is followed by sephardim by the way) came thousands of years after moshe. This shows a lack of understanding on how oral law works. By the way...even the heretical movements in judaism accept the shulchan aruch as a legitimate book in the line of the mesorah - oral law. It is just that in the 19th century they decided that the next step in the oral tradition was to assimilate, bring a new siddur, change customs and the national aspect of the jewish people. I would say that the LACK responsas and oral law would be showing the weakness of a heritage.
8/5/2002 10:02:58 PM
baruch,You mention that Yoseph Karo (who is followed by sephardim by the way) came thousands of years after moshe. This shows a lack of understanding on how oral law works. By the way...even the heretical movements in judaism accept the shulchan aruch as a legitimate book in the line of the mesorah - oral law. It is just that in the 19th century they decided that the next step in the oral tradition was to assimilate, bring a new siddur, change customs and the national aspect of the jewish people. I would say that the LACK responsas and oral law would be showing the weakness of a heritage.
baruch_shmuelovitz
baruch,
Without sounding arrogant or anything you prove my point with your own interpolations. ON the day that mashiach comes we will know him. But till then Devarim tells us that we will be few and scattered amongst the nations. Forget the talmud for a second which is 100 percent torah, your suggestion for proselytizing also breaks signs and prophecies in chumash. By the way I did not say that halacha has to do with it. The shulchan aruch is primarily a codification of the talmud. tHe talmud according to the mesorah was received first by Moses then handed down. So when you object to any precept in the talmud or shulchan aruch you are also going against moshe rabeinu. The domino effect in otherwards. By the way there is no concept in torah that tzedaka or pertains to teaching torah to non-Jews. Same with loshon hora. This is your own personal opinion which is not consistent with torah.
8/5/2002 9:58:52 PM
baruch,
Without sounding arrogant or anything you prove my point with your own interpolations. ON the day that mashiach comes we will know him. But till then Devarim tells us that we will be few and scattered amongst the nations. Forget the talmud for a second which is 100 percent torah, your suggestion for proselytizing also breaks signs and prophecies in chumash. By the way I did not say that halacha has to do with it. The shulchan aruch is primarily a codification of the talmud. tHe talmud according to the mesorah was received first by Moses then handed down. So when you object to any precept in the talmud or shulchan aruch you are also going against moshe rabeinu. The domino effect in otherwards. By the way there is no concept in torah that tzedaka or pertains to teaching torah to non-Jews. Same with loshon hora. This is your own personal opinion which is not consistent with torah.
WachOne
Great resentment can result if one race or religious places themselves above the others. And even greater harm can come when you invite others in your house and then suggest that they are less than you.
If history has shown that great harm has come as a result of prostelyzation by those of jewish faith, then perhaps it is because you speak with forked tongues.
Don't extol the virtues of your faith to others if you know that converts will be shut out or "left in the outer circles". There is enough bitterness from just casual contact with arrogance: intimate contact burns in the soul and festers a hatred that is hard, even for the most passive soul, to extinguish.
8/5/2002 7:45:00 PM
As I watch the debate unfold here on the board, I must suggest that you may both be right. It is probably not best to prostelyze until you agree to accept those you convert. If you cannot, than do not try to convice others that you walk in in God's path. I believe God to be the God of all people, with no favorites among them.Great resentment can result if one race or religious places themselves above the others. And even greater harm can come when you invite others in your house and then suggest that they are less than you.
If history has shown that great harm has come as a result of prostelyzation by those of jewish faith, then perhaps it is because you speak with forked tongues.
Don't extol the virtues of your faith to others if you know that converts will be shut out or "left in the outer circles". There is enough bitterness from just casual contact with arrogance: intimate contact burns in the soul and festers a hatred that is hard, even for the most passive soul, to extinguish.
Baruch18
One more thing, it says that "on that day", the day of the Mashaich, all people of the world will bend their knee to the One true G-d and His name shall be One. What does Halacha have to do with this? Hashem does not need more laws legislated to spread His name and His light. He only needs us to opened up and to share. What greater Tzadakah is there than to give someone the words of the Torah? Jew or non-Jew!
8/5/2002 6:17:39 PM
to baruch shm..cont'd:One more thing, it says that "on that day", the day of the Mashaich, all people of the world will bend their knee to the One true G-d and His name shall be One. What does Halacha have to do with this? Hashem does not need more laws legislated to spread His name and His light. He only needs us to opened up and to share. What greater Tzadakah is there than to give someone the words of the Torah? Jew or non-Jew!
Baruch18
As for what you and the Orthodox call yourselves - "Torah Observant" Jews - I have a different interpretation. You are not necessarilly Torah Observant, what in fact you are is "Shulchan Aruch" Observant - a book that was written in 1555 by Joseph Caro (1488 - 1575 CE), some 2800 years after Moshe!
In last weeks Torah Parsha there was a great verse which commands us not to "add to or substract from" the Torah. While the Reform (and the Christians) may have substracted from the Torah, I dare say after a review of the Shulchan Aruch, you have most certainly added to it.
8/5/2002 6:13:05 PM
to baruch shm Cont'd:As for what you and the Orthodox call yourselves - "Torah Observant" Jews - I have a different interpretation. You are not necessarilly Torah Observant, what in fact you are is "Shulchan Aruch" Observant - a book that was written in 1555 by Joseph Caro (1488 - 1575 CE), some 2800 years after Moshe!
In last weeks Torah Parsha there was a great verse which commands us not to "add to or substract from" the Torah. While the Reform (and the Christians) may have substracted from the Torah, I dare say after a review of the Shulchan Aruch, you have most certainly added to it.
Baruch18
It was started in the Roman World in 313 CE when conversion to Judaism was declared punishable by death - the Muslims just continued to reinforce it in the minds of Jews when they came to power. 313 CE is certainly during the first half of the Talmudic Period.
Also, you state that Orthodox Conversion is "al pi halacha vedat moshe". Yet, no where in the Torah does it state how his own wife and sons ever, if they did at all, went through a formal conversion. The same goes for the "souls that he (Avaraham) made" when Avraham left for Canaan from Charan. The same goes for King David's Great Grandmother - Ruth - as well. There is no formal process or pre-requisites mentioned.
You say, "A Jew is a Jew is a Jew" - now how many times have I heard the Chabad Rabbi say that! However, it is very misleading - a Jew is a Jew only IF you say he/she is one!
8/5/2002 6:12:47 PM
To: baruch shm...It was started in the Roman World in 313 CE when conversion to Judaism was declared punishable by death - the Muslims just continued to reinforce it in the minds of Jews when they came to power. 313 CE is certainly during the first half of the Talmudic Period.
Also, you state that Orthodox Conversion is "al pi halacha vedat moshe". Yet, no where in the Torah does it state how his own wife and sons ever, if they did at all, went through a formal conversion. The same goes for the "souls that he (Avaraham) made" when Avraham left for Canaan from Charan. The same goes for King David's Great Grandmother - Ruth - as well. There is no formal process or pre-requisites mentioned.
You say, "A Jew is a Jew is a Jew" - now how many times have I heard the Chabad Rabbi say that! However, it is very misleading - a Jew is a Jew only IF you say he/she is one!