What do you believe?
awfultruth
All the elements of Jesus' family and early story are in the Yeshu and Miriam ben Stada his mom' accounts in the Talmud. But the Talmudic accounts contain Yeshu's rather mundane birth through adultery by Miriam and Joseph ben Pantera the Roman mercenary while the Gospels reverse Yeshu's bastardy by proclaiming him immaculately conceived.
2/14/2004 6:37:20 PM
Of course these Talmudic stories have been hidden away from Gentile eyes by the language barrier and actual excizing of these Yeshu and Miriam verses from some Talmuds along with the blatant anti-Gentilism one finds in Talmudic scriptures, the only prominent world faith with a Holy book containing openly racist theology.All the elements of Jesus' family and early story are in the Yeshu and Miriam ben Stada his mom' accounts in the Talmud. But the Talmudic accounts contain Yeshu's rather mundane birth through adultery by Miriam and Joseph ben Pantera the Roman mercenary while the Gospels reverse Yeshu's bastardy by proclaiming him immaculately conceived.
awfultruth
2/14/2004 6:36:48 PM
Papyrus, there's historical evidence Jesus even existed, let alone was killed by Romans at the urging of Jewish religious authorities. So we have to be careful of "facts". I myself find the Talmudic accounts of Yeshu ben Pantera the closest we'll ever get to the historical Jesus. One of the biggest reasons I think the Talmudic accounts, although obliquely written, are closer to the historical truth is because the Jewish religious leaders openly admit to killing Yeshu and his five disciples as per Jewish Law, stoned and then hung on a tree (see Paul's reference in Gal 3:13). Given the immense negativity the Gospel accounts give to Jews as urgers of Romans to kill Christ, why on earth would Jewish leaders create a fiction of Jesus wherein they and they alone are responsible for his death?
papyrus
It’s a historical fact… that the leaders of Israel decided to have Jesus killed, and so they did. The inquisition tortured and killed millions in Europe. The conquering Muslims, offered submit to Ala or die by the sword. Those are historical facts of those times.
Just like it’s a historical fact that Stalin massacred millions of Russians, and the Nazi’s killed millions of Jewish people. Trying to silence history is censorship. Hiding historical truth camouflaged by accusations of anti-Semitism.. is simply a cheap form of censorship. Just like current day Christians, Muslims, and others do not carry the “ Mea Culpa” for past generations… and admit these facts of history. So should those who oppose this movie.
2/14/2004 10:17:41 AM
Recorded history its there for everyone… it teaches us mistakes as well as glorious moments of mankind.It’s a historical fact… that the leaders of Israel decided to have Jesus killed, and so they did. The inquisition tortured and killed millions in Europe. The conquering Muslims, offered submit to Ala or die by the sword. Those are historical facts of those times.
Just like it’s a historical fact that Stalin massacred millions of Russians, and the Nazi’s killed millions of Jewish people. Trying to silence history is censorship. Hiding historical truth camouflaged by accusations of anti-Semitism.. is simply a cheap form of censorship. Just like current day Christians, Muslims, and others do not carry the “ Mea Culpa” for past generations… and admit these facts of history. So should those who oppose this movie.
eastcoastlady
11/18/2003 10:02:50 AM
to "liberal christian": Your overbearing sanctimony and rightious indignation are exactly among the reasons there is so much friction between different religions. People indeed need to listen to differing opinions. Your complete lack of respect for what someone else has to say, is a reason other folks say, "Thank God Judaism and Christianity are different", because if all Christians behaved and believed as you do, there truly never will be peace in the world. Your version of "the truth" is completely subjective and biased. Your truth is what you choose to believe, ONLY. I for one will continue to practice and strive to learn the ethical precepts of the Torah, which, if you bothered to learn about yourself, you might find is the basis for what you choose to believe.
liberal_christian
If they don't like it - too bad. Christianity is not Judaism - thank God. People like Abe Foxman et al will never understand the truth so let them howl to the moon, nobody is listening and nobody cares. Mel Gibson's movie will simply be a huge success for which the Jews will be jealous as usual.
Matthew 27:24-25. ‘When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing , but that rather a tumult was made, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be upon us and our children’.
10/12/2003 7:17:14 PM
Frankly I simply couldn't care less what the Anti-Defamation League or Abe Foxman think or say about Mel Gibson's new movie, The Passion.If they don't like it - too bad. Christianity is not Judaism - thank God. People like Abe Foxman et al will never understand the truth so let them howl to the moon, nobody is listening and nobody cares. Mel Gibson's movie will simply be a huge success for which the Jews will be jealous as usual.
Matthew 27:24-25. ‘When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing , but that rather a tumult was made, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be upon us and our children’.
religionsmajorWU
Moreover, Scripture is by its nature capable of being interprettd in multiple ways, so let's not go around telling the other side they've got it completely wrong.
Finally, I'd like to hear all of Mel Gibson's statements, rather than one member of the ADL saying his statements are anti-semetic. Let us judge for ourselves.
10/2/2003 12:07:33 PM
Hey, I have a German friend who was actually told once by a Jewish boy that she should be sent to a gas chamber, so don't underestimate hatred on all sides.Moreover, Scripture is by its nature capable of being interprettd in multiple ways, so let's not go around telling the other side they've got it completely wrong.
Finally, I'd like to hear all of Mel Gibson's statements, rather than one member of the ADL saying his statements are anti-semetic. Let us judge for ourselves.
durbanatal
9/29/2003 1:21:54 PM
For goodness' sakes!! If we hate Hitler, does that mean we hate German people? Of course not!! Mel Gibson is telling it like it happened (almost) - do you want to change the history books to make them politically correct? Just like certain religions change the Bible to suit what they want to beieve??
CroCop
I just saw it yesterday, and the Passion hasn't even come out yet!
9/29/2003 9:16:27 AM
now the jewish hypocrites like foxman have been exposed. notice how no one complains about The Gospel of John, a word for word movie on what is considered the most 'anti semetic' gospel. I just saw it yesterday, and the Passion hasn't even come out yet!
arielmessenger
9/26/2003 8:42:48 PM
ariadne, again it is my role to come on strong against traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs as I bear a new Christian vision that must separate itself from the old one based on Paul's reversal of Jesus' rebellion against the religious authorities of his day. Paul ruined Christian morality by adding to it the threat of eternal damnation if one doesn't believe as Paul does. Paul ruined it by reversing Jesus' moral stand against immoral authority found in the Sanhedrin and Roman rule. Paul would and did have Christians kowtowing to Roman authorities, and Christian church authority setting the stage for the later Roman Catholic Church's utter abandonment of the teachings of Jesus when the Papacy was established.
ariadne1
In Christianity, there are wonderful writers like Thomas Keating and Matthew Fox. In Judaism, Abraham Heschel, Michael Lerner, etc. And although I am not familiar with modern Islamic writings, I have full faith that they have wonderful interpreters of their faith tradition too.
All of these people insist on a loving God and reinterpret the Biblical stories with a modern understanding. So, although I don't necessarily follow those faiths, I do respect them.
9/25/2003 4:07:40 PM
I can't judge any religion by its ancient writings alone, or by its most conservative followers. In Christianity, there are wonderful writers like Thomas Keating and Matthew Fox. In Judaism, Abraham Heschel, Michael Lerner, etc. And although I am not familiar with modern Islamic writings, I have full faith that they have wonderful interpreters of their faith tradition too.
All of these people insist on a loving God and reinterpret the Biblical stories with a modern understanding. So, although I don't necessarily follow those faiths, I do respect them.
ariadne1
Personally, I am Jewish by birth and a seeker by nature. I have no allegiance to any orthodoxy. And I regard most of the ancient scriptures as valuable records of what people once believed as they struggled with the meaning of life, the nature of God, etc. But I think that modern people need to recognize scripture as literature, myth and legend.
To understand the nature of reality, a respect for science as well as spirituality is helpful.
9/25/2003 4:04:47 PM
There is an excellent book, The River of God, that traces the way people's perception of God has changed as various cultural influences have met and influenced the peoples of the Mediterranean region. And I believe that the process of reinventing God is still going on.Personally, I am Jewish by birth and a seeker by nature. I have no allegiance to any orthodoxy. And I regard most of the ancient scriptures as valuable records of what people once believed as they struggled with the meaning of life, the nature of God, etc. But I think that modern people need to recognize scripture as literature, myth and legend.
To understand the nature of reality, a respect for science as well as spirituality is helpful.
ariadne1
I think that our biggest disagreement is not about the way the OT God is portrayed. I agree that that vision of deity is often cruel and schizophrenic. But I believe that many religious people's view of God is a constantly evolving process.
While there are, of course, many people in all religions who take ancient writings too literally, many don't. So, many Jews and Christians are not worshipping the God of Genesis or Deutoronomy, although they certainly give lip service to that deity.
Their perception of deity is much more deeper and richer and far less simplistic than that of the primitive peoples who first wrote the early Biblical stories.
9/25/2003 4:00:15 PM
Well, we do agree about B-net's abysmal editing capabilities. It's a source of frustration to me too.I think that our biggest disagreement is not about the way the OT God is portrayed. I agree that that vision of deity is often cruel and schizophrenic. But I believe that many religious people's view of God is a constantly evolving process.
While there are, of course, many people in all religions who take ancient writings too literally, many don't. So, many Jews and Christians are not worshipping the God of Genesis or Deutoronomy, although they certainly give lip service to that deity.
Their perception of deity is much more deeper and richer and far less simplistic than that of the primitive peoples who first wrote the early Biblical stories.