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Abortion

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Messages: 1 - 16 (35 total)

	astraljourney47 11/25/2004 7:39 PM	1 out of 35
	I'm curious, what are you guys' views on abortion as Pagans? Do you feel abortion is just totally immoral or is it moral under certain conditions? I consider myself a Pagan and pro-choice, but today I decided to ponder more about my beliefs on that position. Any thoughts? --Nick

	MissElphaba 11/25/2004 8:50 PM	2 out of 35
	There is no one Pagan religion, and as such, no one Pagan view on abortion. I don't know of any Pagan religion has a specifically expressed viewpoint on abortion, but most of them have a high regard for personal responsibility, and some place a specifically high importance on a respect for life, including your own, and your own personal health. Beyond that, it is for everyone to decide on there own what their Gods tell you about it. Most Pagans would probably in fact tell you that such a choice is between you and your Gods, and is no one else's business. Elphie

	jbshaw63 11/25/2004 9:46 PM	3 out of 35
	Yeah, that�d pretty much cover the bases. I personally don�t think abortion is a good idea, but then again lacking a uterus, I am rather unlikely to ever find myself in the position of having to choose. All in all, I personally would be loosely pro-life, but fundamentally unwilling to compel anyone else to live in accordance with my personal values and beliefs. So long as the rights of the other people concerned are also protected. Were I in a position of dictatorial authority I would outlaw abortion at the point of viability, not before, because at that point I think we do cross a line between a legitimate, if perhaps extreme, medical procedure and what amounts to a form of involuntary euthanasia.

	jaybirdparker 11/26/2004 3:31 PM	4 out of 35
	When my wife was only three to four weeks pregnant, the spirit of the child,(now my oldest daughter) gave me a defanet sign by following me around walmart with a pink balloon. If an unborn child can do this then there is certanly life. Life is precious, and children are our most precious resource. Therefore, abortion is wrong in my opinion, reguardless of the situation. jaybird

	lunababy_moonchild 11/27/2004 4:14 AM	5 out of 35
	This is an emotive and, IMHO, ultimately 'chicken and egg' type of discussion. As far as I am concerned I agree with Elphie. I'd also like to point out, however, that at no point will I ever deny that life is present even at a few weeks gestation. Life, however, is not always that straight forward. I know of a couple, for example, who were told in the 7th month of pregnancy (or thereabouts, it was very late anyway) that should said pregnancy not be terminated right away - for genuine, hitherto unknown, medical reasons (i.e. it was discovered that the mother had a rare blood disorder and the only specialist that was qualified to assess her couldn't understand how she got pregnant let alone stayed pregnant that long)- or both mother and baby would surely die. As husband and/or life partner what would you choose? Some people are presented with damned if you do and damned if you don't choices that only they can make and I feel that stating that abortion is wrong is a sweeping general statement that cannot fully encompass every situation. Now, abortion is a nasty subject there's no getting away from that and it's not a form of contraceptive but I feel it needs to be available for just such above mentioned situations and thus it can be strictly controlled. Otherwise we will go back (and we will) to back street illegal abortions which carry a higher price. My opinion only - and I don't think that it has anything to do with the fact that I'm Pagan either, btw. Peace Luna

	selenist 11/27/2004 9:25 PM	6 out of 35
	For me: abortion is a morally neutral act for the first trimester. After that, I would not have one except if the pregnancy endangered my life. To live seems, in my eyes, most amazing; not something lightly to be denied another. But to give life wantonly--carelessly or without means to sustain it--seems as wrong to me as the wanton destruction or denial of life. In my own moral calculus, that means there must be some flexibility and freedom granted to the potential parent. Some say that freedom ends when a person engages in sex, but it seems to me willfully foolish to equate humanity's powerful, unending bodily drives with the reasoned and well-considered choice to conceive, bear, and raise another person. Although in a perfect world everyone would always use contraception when they weren't interested in offspring, and in a perfect world, that contraception would never fail, we do not live in a perfect world. Thus I feel the final point of choice must be drawn after sex and conception, and with due consideration for fetal development, I have personally picked the end of the first trimester as that point. BUT. This is not a choice I could make on behalf of other potential mothers/parents, especially when the choice is such a religiously and politically vexed one in my own country today!

	jbshaw63 11/28/2004 12:21 AM	7 out of 35
	Luna As husband and/or life partner what would you choose? I would recommend that she have an immediate c-section, a 7 month fetus is fully capable of survival outside the womb without heroic levels of assistance. If the child, due to this odd medical condition, or for whatever reason, perished anyway, then that would be for the Gods to decide. I would not arbitrarily deny it the right to even try to live.

	lunababy_moonchild 11/28/2004 3:53 AM	8 out of 35
	JB I didn't go into full details of this case for obvious reasons but since you mentioned it the reason that termination was not recommended so much as demanded was that the mother, as a result of the odd blood disorder (which is so mdically complicated I still don't understand it), was judged physically incapable of even a c-section both at the time and at full term (which was suggested by the parents, for the reason you mentioned). Termination, apparently, was more than risky enough to both mother and baby. As it turned out they chose to continue with the pregnancy until full term and she went through child birth, only to very narrowly escape death (both mother and baby), through the skill and hard work of the medical team attending - who, to this day, don't know how either of them survived. I think that the subject of abortion is a very personal one. For example the women amongst us, as you can see, have a different viewpoint to the men. Please understand that I myself view life in any form as very very precious and abhor killing, the point I was trying to make was that the issue of abortion is just not simple enough to say 'it's wrong and shouldn't be allowed at all', that's all. Peace Luna

	Windsinger 11/28/2004 2:54 PM	9 out of 35
	As a liberal, not as a Pagan, I have a strong view about abortion: People with access to medical care, (thus birth control,) and a living wage, don't tend to have abortions. This is why the abortion rate has gone UP under Bush, who is against Abortion. It's the economy, stupid.

	jbshaw63 11/28/2004 5:49 PM	10 out of 35
	Luna I think that the subject of abortion is a very personal one. For example the women amongst us, as you can see, have a different viewpoint to the men. They do? Looking over the responses to date I don�t really see a clear gender division. Selenist, for example, seems to have a nearly identical position to my own. Please understand that I myself view life in any form as very very precious and abhor killing, the point I was trying to make was that the issue of abortion is just not simple enough to say 'it's wrong and shouldn't be allowed at all', that's all. What a relief then that I said nothing of the sort. :-) Please reread my earlier post, I said in effect that while I didn�t like the idea, I did accept its utility, in some cases even its necessity. I then went on to point out that, in my opinion, beyond the point of viability (roughly 5 months or so) there were serious ethical problems involved, probably serious enough to outlaw the procedure at that point in all but the most extreme of circumstances. The sacredness of life, for me, is a core issue, but I think it is misunderstood (from my POV) by most Neopagan and New Age types. A life, any life, including the potential life of an unborn child, is indeed sacred. But just as the hunter must occasionally take life in order to support his tribe, so the doctor must sometimes take life to insure both the continuity, and the quality, of his patient�s life. Death is seldom pretty, and the more �innocent� the creature dying, the uglier it becomes. But it is an inevitable part of the natural order. To abhor death is to abhor life; you cannot have one without the other, not in this world at least.

	oldrebelswife 11/28/2004 8:28 PM	11 out of 35
	I too am pro-choice when it comes to abortion, I believe that it is a very personal decision and I would never presume to tell any person what to do under any circumstances. Having said that, I don't think I could ever have had an abortion myself. I like to fill my life with positive influences, and the very nature of abortion is absolutely negative. If one can live with the consequences or if it is a matter of life or death for the mother then as I say the choice is up to the woman.

	MissElphaba 11/29/2004 10:07 AM	12 out of 35
	I have issues with people attaching there own ethical feelings to abortion when they lobby for or against it, and I dislike the fact that it is so often only represented as a last choice to women who are pregnant, and for whatever reason, can't (or choose not to) be mothers. I personally feel there are already too many unwanted children alive in the world, we certainly don't need more. I have no ethical problems with abortion prior to viability (scientifically at that point its more a parasite than anything else anyway), and afterwards, I still think QUALITY is more important than QUANTITY, and I don't see how forcing a woman to have a child she doesn't want improves the QUALITY of anyone's life. If a woman has chosen not to raise her child, I will more often be pro-abortion than any of the other options. As for women who choose to abort, I commend them for having the strength to make what must be a difficult decision. Elphie

	lunababy_moonchild 11/29/2004 1:40 PM	13 out of 35
	As I said, it's a complex and emotive subject and also deeply personal. Since belief systems - certainly on this Board - are also deeply personal it's up to the individual to decide their own personal stance. Perhaps that's what Astraljourney meant when the original question was asked. "I too am pro-choice when it comes to abortion, I believe that it is a very personal decision and I would never presume to tell any person what to do under any circumstances." I reckon this is what I've been trying to say all along, too. JB "What a relief then that I said nothing of the sort. :-)" I really, really don't want to get into this type of 'debate' but I can honestly say that I never did state that you said anything of any type at all, I was merely stating my own opinion. The first part of the post was addressed to you and perhaps I failed to make it clear that not all of the comments were directed at you personally, next time I'll be more careful. Peace Luna

	jaybirdparker 11/30/2004 1:00 AM	14 out of 35
	I have been reading the other posts on this thread and I agree that this is a sticky topic. Although I myself am against abortion and that there is at least a 98% chance for an alternative to said "procedure", I must also concede that it is just as wrong to force ALL people to conform to the sole belief of one. Even if there is a large number of others that believe or feel the same as that one person. Jaybird P.S. As for the other 2%, I leave that up to The Goddess. (again, my personal belief. believe as you choose.) May you be blessed upon your path Jaybird

	MissElphaba 11/30/2004 11:40 AM	15 out of 35
	Can you provide a source for those numbers? Elphie

	ArcadianStormcrow 11/30/2004 2:38 PM	16 out of 35
	My sister had a similar situation Luna (though much earlier on in the pregnancy) - lose the child, or lose them both. :( Not a happy choice, but, well, I'm grateful that I still have a sister. Selfish? You bet. I won't deny that. But that event colors my views. Elphie's got a good point about unwanted adoptees... I think it's kinda sad that we put so much passion and effort into the struggle prior to birth, but after they're born, the kids drop off the radar for so many people. Personally, I'd love to see "no child left behind" be a statement about adoption - and if we got to that point, we probably wouldn't need abortion as much. But, I'm a cynic, and don't expect that to happen.

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