Did God Intervene?

Evangelicals are crediting God with securing re-election victory for George W. Bush.

mysteries86

03/24/2006 06:59:58 PM

I dont know about that. God never intervened for who we elected. We made decisions if who we would to elect. God only intervenes when he has to. When someone is helplessly need assistance. Hes there to intervene in a way that we cant fully understand...

epicurienne

01/25/2005 06:05:38 PM

Saying God helped somebody win an election isn't too far removed from praying for your team to win a football game.

Durendal

01/14/2005 04:20:30 PM

If god acted in the US election, then by omission of action, he/she is personally responsible for the millions of deaths occuring around the world. I believe, but I am not so self-rightous as to think that god would answer my prayers for high office or anything else. Anyone believing that god has ordained Bush, is as misguided as any suicide bomber.

BBarton

12/26/2004 07:10:50 PM

Bush is the Great Pretender. He surrounds himself with the coalition of the "unwilling". Their uniform is a dark suit with a little flag on the lapel to fool the people into thinking them patriotic, while the carelessly dessimate our military in their selfrightious thinking. We had a choice and the world will have one too. If an owner doesn't care that his bit bull wreaks havoc in the neighborhood, what choice does that leave the neighbors? Wake up all you sleepyheads. "The Way" ain't what George & Co.'s walking. When "spin" is considered clever and truth unimportant, there's trouble afoot.

mrmissy

12/11/2004 06:36:32 PM

Er....did God intervene? Who IS your God? The devil? George W. Bush has NEVER won a thing in his life. Everything has ALWAYS been handed to him. I wish I had it like that. I wish I had friends who owned voting machines and stated in public without fear that he or she would make sure that the vote was DELIVERED FOR ME! Yeah. That SOUNDS just like God to me. I have to run and tell every child that I run into that God helps crooks and theives and also rigs elections for people.

cullins

11/29/2004 03:31:19 PM

Thank you ChicagoHeathen for your response. I have been on vacation or I would have responded earlier. I must say I have not studied the Asatru religion. Is this a family belief or did you come to this belief in other ways. Is this a pretty big movement in the US or a small minority. Do you believe in life after death? Do you believe Jesus existed. I will do some studies on your belief. Thanks again for your interesting comments on this sight.

emilymarie_59

11/27/2004 10:49:43 AM

So the oil tycoons helped get the now President Bush in office to continue the WAR for the oil in the Middle East, the Bush's and the other oil tycoons want to control all of the oil in the world. I'm telling you, READ THE BOOK "THE BUSH DYSLEXICON: OBSERVATIONS ON A NATIONAL DISORDER" by Mark Crispin Miller, a journalist who investigated the Bush reign. I just pray to Jesus that he will give the rest of us enough time to save as many souls as we can for the day of the rapture is closer than we all think. God Bless each and EVERY ONE of YOU.

emilymarie_59

11/27/2004 10:46:02 AM

I believe as caroldel. There is a book that I wish all Christian Leaders and Christians would read, they might learn a little more about President Bush and the Bush Family. It is called "THE BUSH DYSLEXICON: OBSERVATIONS ON A NATIONAL DISORDER". Bush is part of the revelation, blinding our leaders and our Christian leaders and Christians into believing that what he is doing is good. He claims to be aginst abortion right, then why are they still legal? I believe many of our Christian leaders and Christians are only seeing what they want to see, or hearing the parts that they want to hear and not looking at what is really happening, and see that this WAR began a long time ago. It is a personal WAR against the first President Bush and Sudam Hussein and it was never finished.

tkfuzzkid

11/22/2004 09:30:07 PM

I know that I was filled with an urgency about making a point to go out on election day and vote for Pres. Bush. I felt very strongly that if Bush was re-elected, that all would be well with our nation; and also I felt very strongly that if Kerry were elected, that it would be very bad for our nation. I don't think that Sen. Kerry is a bad man, he is just not God's man to lead our nation into a bright future. I agree that our nation is at a crossroads spiritually. We have many people in Christians churches who are as lost as they can be. They are very religious but not Christian. This I know for a fact. Denominations divide Christians into small bickering groups, and satan uses this to weaken their power as Christians. That I say only that I am a Christian. I feel that I need not say more.

ChicagoHeathen

11/21/2004 03:21:44 PM

Cullins: To give a brief answer, I am Asatru, which is a religion based on the old religion of the Germanic and Nordic peoples of Northern Europe in pre-christian times. It is based on historical and literary sources, the main ones being the Poetic and Prose Eddas, and the Icelandic Sagas, and chronicles by historians such as Saxo Grammaticus and Tacitus. It is also based on surviving folk traditions, in places where those are still extant. GFor other info, you may want to check out the What is Asatru board here. At any rate, my faith is in no way based on Judeo-Christian tradition, and so the possibility of legislating Christianity is a concern to me.

Uriel-238

11/19/2004 02:57:27 PM

God is archetypally, even in the Judeo Christian mythos, a “big-picture” entity. The occasional abortion of a pregnancy because a given woman isn’t ready to be a mother, or the occasional bonding of two same-gender souls because they have a love between themselves that compares to that between a devoted husband and wife, are going to be lower priority issues in comparison to the wrath of intolerance we see in our own streets, the neglect of our future in the dark legacy we leave for our children, or the mobilization of the greatest military on Earth in the name of greed.

Uriel-238

11/19/2004 02:56:53 PM

I doubt a peaceful loving God would favor the unjust war in Iraq in which many innocent civilians, including pregnant mothers and children, die every day. I don’t think God agrees with economic policies that favor widening the gap between the haves and the have-nots, or for overtaxing our environment for quick industrial gains. I don’t think that God favors Halliburton reaping the fruits of Iraqi oil bought for in human blood. I doubt God sanctions an administration who’s lied more than Nixon, possibly more than Hitler, or an administration that condones the denial of Geneva endorsed human rights to “detainees” because of a technicality. If God did, in Her great design influenced the election to keep Bush in office, it was to remind us what happens when bad people are put in power, to remind us of the price of freedom...

Uriel-238

11/19/2004 02:55:56 PM

From a secular liberal standpoint (or really, a heathen or heretical standpoint. I believe in God, just not the Mesopotamian transplant found in the OT) God may have influenced the election, though not for the reasons listed in this article....

cullins

11/19/2004 10:58:22 AM

This message is to ChicagoHeathen. I am very interested in your spiritual beleifs. I see your post here and you seem to be coming from a different direction than most. Do you follow your parents beliefs or have you developed your beliefs on your own. I am southern Baptist. This year I went thru a study of the major religions and beliefs in the US. I'm sure you know what Baptist believe, but I am interested in knowing your's are and what they are based on. I'm not ridiculing at all just interested.

ChicagoHeathen

11/19/2004 03:12:34 AM

Pagans have a right to worship as they pelase. If they want to worship an idol so be it. Let's see if that idol eats or does anything. Let me say this slowly so that you can GET IT. Pagans. And. Heathens. Do. NOT. Worship. Idols. And even if we did, at least we don't see fricking divine faces in grilled cheese! 90% of the people are faith based. Pagans and Heathens are also faith-based. If you don't like our country. Go home. Pagans knew when they moved here we were a Christian country. Sorry, no can do. I didn't move here, I was born here. This is not a Christian country, it is a country whose main faith group is Christian. but as there is no state religion, it can't be a Christian country. Not rocket science here. I don't like "your" Christian country. And I AM home. Buck up and deal. If you don't like Pagans and Heathens, hey, go to the "Holy Land". This isn't new Jerusalem. Why don't you go annoy people in the old one?

caroldel

11/18/2004 08:47:54 AM

I do believe Bush was Gods choosen in as much as Saul was. People were excited with Saul based upon what they saw, I believe the same holds true for Bush. In everything I hear from Bush I never hear him talk about the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Mountains bow down and seas will roar at the sound of His name Jesus Christ our Lord. The Bible sayes you should know them by their fruit. Bush doesnt have fruit. Partial birth abortion continues because of the way it was written there was no protection for the mother in the wrighting Bush knew that and so didnt the writers of the law. He didnt want to ban partial birth abortion he just wanted it to look like he did. I think people ought to open up there eyes. Young American men and woman are dying in Iraq for a lie that to me is perpetuated by the devil who is thge father of all lies. Oh yes Bush could be Gods choosen. Not to save America but to bring mankind to the great tribulation. What say you?

ALPHA2

11/18/2004 02:14:16 AM

our God is and awesome God he reigns on heaven and earth. you know if the truth were to poke us in the nose we still will argue the fact. never accept the truth that God intervenes in our lives today tommorrow and the future. why can man accept it? My God is an awesome God he reigns in heaven and on earth.

Beliefnet_Tiger

11/18/2004 01:17:02 AM

Reminder: Conspiracy theories are to be discussed on the appropriate board: Conspiracy Theories Thank you, Beliefnet_Tiger

RichardHarness

11/17/2004 05:06:29 PM

Instead of running off at the mouth over something which most (not all)know not of which they speak we should be more concerned about what the U.N. is doing via passing laws governing the actions of citizens of the United States to wit: The United Nations has established a working group on Internet "governance", to prepare for a decision to be made at the World Summit on the Information Society (second phase), to be held in Tunis in November 2005. The two documents adopted by the Geneva Summit -- the Declaration of Principles and the Plan of Action -- asked the Working Group "to investigate and make proposals for the governance of the Internet by 2005." Our concern should be over the development. "The Internet community should monitor this process very carefully considering the United Nation's tendency to impose its ideological views on a global basis," he said. "The UN has no respect for the sovereignty of nations regarding its dearly held ideological positions on life and family.

windbender

11/17/2004 03:23:47 PM

Assuming that G-d actually did, by specific intent, put George Bush in the White house, anybody got clue where I go to file a grievance?

Sister_T

11/17/2004 03:02:12 PM

I don't think God intervened in Bush's re-election. We all have our own free will and choice, and God can't make us vote for whomever He wants. But I do think that, even if Kerry had been elected, God would have helped him lead, if Kerry so desired His help.

cloud-eagle

11/17/2004 02:12:46 PM

Some Christians are still using their religion as a sledgehammer to control others for money and the expanding of their flock. In the meantime the poor go to war and are killed. People ought to read "And the Truth shall set you free" by David Icke.

cloud-eagle

11/17/2004 02:10:10 PM

We need to abort the Republican Party and it's insane dogmatic stupidity.

cloud-eagle

11/17/2004 02:09:30 PM

Thank God Revelations is totally distorted and misunderstood by so called Christians. I wonder what religion CHRIST would start. Probably wouldn't start any religion. True Spirituality is not belief, emotion, religion or opinion. True unity -- that is -- non separativeness (no such thing as sin* -- (*defined as darkness or ignorance of ones true relationship with God))) is foundational to knowing God rather than just believing. America is slaughtering people in Iraq in the name of oil. NO ONE WANTS US THERE. 101,000 dead Iraqi's don't want us there. Our reasons are not altruistic. Bush and Cheney are guilty of war crimes and so are most of the Senate and House. And the corrupt politically motivated propaganda ridden media controls what we get to see and know. Stop the war crimes now.

RichardHarness

11/17/2004 01:04:35 PM

To pretend to Know the Mind of G_d is beyond me. One thing I do know "May you always be inspired in your options by the conviction that life must be promoted and defended from its conception to its natural end." We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. To take a life, any life for any reason, is a sin in the eyes of G_d. To murder (partial birth abortion)for financial gain,mothers who carry an infant to full term and then have partial birth abortion are paid to do so) To kill in the name of science (doctors & other organizations promoting stem cell research)is an abomination in the eyes of G_d. We have murdered more babies in America than all the peoples Hitler killed in WW11. And we call ourselves civilized? Whether God intervened or not,obviously, "Christians voted in the defense of the inviolable dignity of every human person." Richard Harness

BBarton

11/17/2004 09:34:41 AM

Beware of those who call themselves after Christ. Let's look at the fruits! They're there and they smell pretty rotten to me. All faiths believe God is Truth. Why was it necessary for GW to avoid Truth or twist it if he's Christian. And how about the GOP. It reminds me of the beast and the false prophet. And the women, richley robed who rides the beast drinking from the bejeweled golden goblet the blood of prophets and young men brings to mind the society that values its status quo more than the truth the prophets have shared and more than the treasure of their nation, it's youth. This is human sacrifice and for what? Iraq was WRONG! We will face the wrath of our own ignorance, intolerence, and indifference.

BBarton

11/17/2004 09:28:40 AM

Oh, I think it was God's will that Bush got elected. Because he gives us our hearts desire. And in every conflict is the opportunity for errant thought to become as ashes and for truth to be lived. The religious right is wrong! And we must all go through the flames of destruction for them to get it. They have clouded issues by turning from the two laws Jesus said were the most important and above any to manipulate, twist truth and put forward their man who says he's saved. Well God save US of America. We'll get through this, but we must walk through the fire for them to awaken. Pharisees, the lot!

zachary7

11/16/2004 11:49:08 PM

Discover why Christians have high confidence in their faith based on logic and extremely sound evidence. This science-religion website uses advanced instruments from secular universities to come to this conclusion at the 99.94% confidence level. www.harvardhouse.com/index.htm After getting new insights, you may begin to discover why people reject Kerry's rationalization that permitted him to vote 6 times to approve of aborting (murdering) the unborn in their 3rd trimester. How can anyone defend such a barbaric position? Liberal Christian have their heads in the wrong place? Bush is not ideal. But Kerry was an absolutely evil choice based on one view. If Mr Kerry can rationalize murdering the unborn, what else could he rationalize. Think about it before you reply. Although some may not like what I have written, I can only say that I am deeply saddened by having to write it.

hivibe

11/16/2004 10:03:35 PM

God gave humans freewill to make choices. Humans do not always choose rightly or wisely. And the lessons of history have shown time and again the folly of thinking we are being led by God. God says "Thou shalt not kill." God also says that "as ye have so shall ye give," NOT "everyone that pays taxes deserves a tax cut!" When we collectively use our freewill to align our actions in right-use-ness, THEN we will be blessed as a people--as the human race. God wants us all to live our lives through the Christ Spirit within us, NOT from the ego-based spirit of fear which is so prevalent in today's world. All I have to say is God help us ALL!! And save us from those who, without humility, consider themselves Your followers.... Peace, Love, Hope, Don R. Newman Savannah

Tyrsson

11/16/2004 08:05:03 PM

"to AZYUWISH99: There is only one God." Nonsense. "He is the God of Christianity." Prove it. "He will bless this land for the vote because we did vote morally." Last time I checked, both candidates were Christians. shrug So how exactly is this supposed to work? Will this god of yours bless only the 51% of the voting population who chose Bush? Or will only those who voted for Bush because of "morality" be blessed? Or maybe only "red" states will experience these blessings you speak of? It's all so confusing... So one question I keep coming back to is, what if the election had gone the other way? Would that, too, have been God's intervention?

KIND6004

11/16/2004 06:33:28 PM

Hmm, well scripture is going to be fulfilled, and so it does not appear as the birth pangs bring us closer to the end of time. That this can occur without a change in the moral standards in this world, or a falling away of the saved, or suffering and tribulation happening. I feel that the election is proving that when someone elected wins, and in the debates will not even admit to the problems of his administrations, but he says he is a christian, party controlled house and senate yet they did not choose to put a change in the admendments regarding gay marriage until the last minute with a weak vote. Sometimes a person has to open the eyes of their understanding and determine if a politicians actions line up with his words.

windbender

11/16/2004 02:58:55 PM

martiniano - Abso-damn-lutely! The notion that, if something doesn't suit you, you simply go somewhere else, is how we end up with the current divorce rate. The SOB that doesn't love it enough to help make it better is the one that needs to go.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/16/2004 02:23:51 PM

whosright2004 is right about Kerry, who was so afraid of offending that he never articulated any clear position. Bush was very clear in pounding home the message of God, guns, and gays. I think the vote was more about clarity than about morality. cyndee2... Never mind. Be happy. Americanmaid, Jesus had sharp contempt for people like Bush, who make a public show of their religiosity. You might also keep in mind that "pagans" were here on the North American continent long before the arrival of hordes of good Christian folk, who promptly slaughtered them.

martiniano

11/16/2004 01:58:05 PM

There is only one God. The One God is worshipped by Muslims, Jews, Christians, Pagans, Hindus, Parsees and Omnitheists. There is only one God, right? So anyone who worships God is worshipping the one and only God. The majority religion in America has always been Christian. And those Christians who founded our country were very clear to ensure that Americans could worship the one God as they saw fit - regardless of how they worshipped or what name they used to refer to The Creator. Pagans, Hindus, Jews and athiests have the same right to live in America as any Christian does. The ignorant love to say "Love it or Leave It" but that is as far from democracy as you can get. So if you have that opinion you are not a true American and you have missed something of great significance in your learning process. The American version of that slogan is "Love it or Change It!". Martin

cyndee2

11/16/2004 12:48:53 PM

to AZYUWISH99: There is only one God. He is the God of Christianity. He will bless this land for the vote because we did vote morally.

Americanmaid

11/16/2004 11:20:05 AM

The bible says God chooses the leaders. GWB says he prays day and night. He is a Godly man and good family man. Pagans have a right to worship as they pelase. If they want to worship an idol so be it. Let's see if that idol eats or does anything. This country was founded on Christianity. 90% of the people are faith based. Jews, Muslims, and Christians worship the same God. Christians quit picking on each other over doctrinal differences and came together with one mind, spirit, and accord. If you don't like our country. Go home. Pagans knew when they moved here we were a Christian country.

whosright2004

11/16/2004 11:11:19 AM

It seems like everyone is taking sides on who's good and bad among the candidates. It could be that both are good and one is simply a better choice or that both are bad and one is the lesser of two evils. One thing to be said for Bush, he certainly makes his religion and the part that it plays in his life no secret. It's in the open for all to see. It would seem to me that Kerry saw how this was helping Bush in the polls and adopted religion in the campaign strictly as a political tactic. It sure wasn't part of his campaign from the beginning. He started off by lambasting Bush in the most un-Christian ways he could. Look back to when he announced his candidacy.

whosright2004

11/16/2004 11:11:09 AM

Granted, Bush hasn't always been straighforward with the truth, but Kerry sure hasn't been either. It's also important to realize that even though it's Bush who sent the soldiers to Iraq, and over a thousand have died there in a year and a half, the vast majority of soldiers in Iraq voted for Bush. They appreciate him and what he's doing. I'm just glad that we have someone in office who won't waffle on the issues with the ebbs and tides of popular opinion, but will stay the course and see things through.

azyuwish99

11/16/2004 09:22:40 AM

This is always so interesting, isn't it? Talking about "God". As if the belief system known as Christianity is the only one. What about all the other gods/belief systems? Let's start with Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva of Hinduism ....then there is Krishna. in Africa there are goddesses and gods that inspire the daily lives of many people there. There's Ahura Mazda of the Zorastrian religion....and.....OH so many gods, so little time!! Looking at the (reported) politics of Jesus, I would say it is a safe bet that HE wasn't the God who got Bush elected. Bush's policies really go against Jesus' admonishment to feed the poor, clothe the naked, turn the other cheek etc. Seems to me that the God most akin to the Bush Administration and it's policies would be...survey SAYS) Mars, God of war in the Greek/Roman pantheon! If we are going to seriously discuss this issue, then I say we put all the gods on the table and vote.

Friend_Of_Jonathan

11/15/2004 07:33:45 PM

Let's see - - - a Supernatural power is declared to have helped a corrupt, lying bigot retain the Presidency, so that more innocent civilians can be killed and maimed, so that more naive young soldiers can die or be maimed for the profits of the very wealthy, so that republic-wide charitable giving can be turned into a corporate slot-machine, so that the level of violence and hatred of a minority can be extended even further, and justice eroded even more. What kind a Supernatural power would even want that to happen?

Cearrai

11/15/2004 06:14:02 PM

Did God choose Bush? Good Lord, I hope not. If so, the deity must have a really deranged sense of humor...

ksvaughan2

11/15/2004 04:11:26 PM

I wonder if Richard Land believes that not catching Osama is God's will.

ksvaughan2

11/15/2004 04:09:16 PM

God intervened to give Bush and his administration the opportunity to stop doing evil: killing civilians, not feeding the poor, witholding health care, taking money from the poor and middle class to enrich the wealthy. The wealthy overwhelmingly supported Bush, with people making over $100,000 providing his margin of victory. And you remember the part about the camel and the eye of the needle.

windbender

11/15/2004 03:42:43 PM

H4C writes: "Is a coherent conversation even possible between those who think God intervened and those who regard the whole notion as self-evidently ludicrous?" After very much resistence to admitting it, I'm afraid I have to answer "no". I simply find no way to discuss reasonably (I hate to say intelligently) issues which require mutual respect and consideration of each other's views, when one of the two parties consistently resorts to some kind of "magical thinking" that leaves the application common sense and the rules of fairplay in the dust.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/15/2004 03:30:34 PM

Of course, the question is ridiculous. The scary thing is that many Americans (but NOT everyone who voted for Bush) not only take this question seriously but answer Yes. Is a coherent conversation even possible between those who think God intervened and those who regard the whole notion as self-evidently ludicrous?

jacknky

11/15/2004 03:05:26 PM

It's a ridiculous question to begin with, hardly worth discussing.

hootie1fan

11/15/2004 01:59:08 PM

If you believe God brought about George Bush's razor slim victory in the 2004 election, then you probably also believe that God "punished" Florida for screwing up the 2000 vote so badly, that he sent all those hurricane as punishment. Please note that the states most damaged by the 2004 hurricane were "red" states.

WillSea

11/15/2004 12:05:19 PM

God is not an external force that threatens us with plagues and foreign powers, with demon kings and fires of hell. He lets us do that for ourselves. What the religious right is doing is CREATING evil, creating conflict by the very idea of a power apart from God. By their judgment, they shall reap judgment. By their force and coercion, they shall reap force and coercion. By their fear, they create something to be afraid of. Loving acceptance of ALL people is what is called for, not force of government, not some army of Gawd, not some petty dictator who says "Gawd, Gawd" and that makes everything he does OK. The thing of hope for me now is knowing that the only pain created by the thumping of bibles is to the fingers that hold them.

Toulouse

11/15/2004 10:44:14 AM

I believe ALL evangelists must be dumb, blind and STUPID to think God 'appointed' Dubya Bush as President. Has everyone gone crazy?? No wonder America is in DEEP trouble, with an attitude like that!

Oisin718

11/15/2004 10:16:18 AM

Another point: When we start talking about Divine intervention and miracles, there's really no way to rationally argue them. For example, I can say that God DID intervene to secure Bush's re-election as a PUNISHMENT for our unlawful invasion of Iraq, our collusion with Pinochet in Chile, our involvment in Nicaragua, Vietnam, etc. I can claim that this election was our last chance to turn away from our evil foreign policy, but like Lot's wife, we hesitated and turned back. Now, God has "given us up" to judgment in the form of four more years of Bush's disastrous government. And there's no way that anyone can challenge this because it's based on irrational faith rather than rational logic.

windbender

11/15/2004 10:15:48 AM

The rhetoric listed in the article is precicely the reason so many around the world, and in particular within the Arab world, see Americans as self-righteous crusaders bent on a holy war to bend the knee of the world to Christ. Most of Europe had a belly full of theocratic government once the echos of screams from the Inquisition died off, the smoke from Joan of Arc blew away and the heads of Henry's wives finally quit rolling down the stairs.

Oisin718

11/15/2004 10:05:46 AM

Errata: for "impeached" read "removed from office." for "intevenes" read "intervenes."

Oisin718

11/15/2004 10:04:56 AM

Question: If God intervened to make Bush President in 2000 and to keep him in office this year, does that mean that God likewise intervened to elect Clinton twice and to prevent Clinton from being impeached? And if God intevenes in elections, why could he not have done something a bit more constructive, like stop the planes from crashing into the World Trade Center, or perhaps visit Saddam Husseim with a plague or two and thus prevent the Iraq war? I'm sorry, I can't imagine the One God of the Universe debasing Himself to get involved in politics. If I believed in a Devil, I'd say politics were more his domain.

Bebe654

11/15/2004 09:48:18 AM

What's GOD got to do...got to do with it? Power and wealth! That's what re-elected Georg W.! MONEY TALKS!!!

jacknky

11/15/2004 09:05:58 AM

F1Fan and Heretic, Yes, the "free will" issue is an interesting one and ya'll did a good job of questioning it. I always thought "free will" was a way to rationalize a "loving God" torturing most of humanity for eternity. We must have deserved it because we had "free will" and chose to disobey God. Yeah, right... "God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie." (II Thess 2:11)

WillSea

11/15/2004 08:58:24 AM

Sorry but if God cast a ballot, provisional or otherwise, I want a recount. The One Power of the Universe (aka God) never, ever can do anything for us, that is not done THRU us. We can't pass the praise without knowing that it is our actions, from wars to peace, from atrocities to healing, that God works thru. Surrender to the fact, surrender to the guidance.

jacknky

11/15/2004 08:56:46 AM

Riolin, "I believe most Iraqis see that America simply wants to rebuild the country..." What do you base that belief on?

Heretic_for_Christ

11/15/2004 08:35:15 AM

Support Bush or Kerry, believe or don't believe in God, be pro-life or pro-choice, think invading Iraq was right or wrong... Whatever your orientation, it is a betrayal of human reason and intelligence to simultaneously insist that humankind has free will and that God manipulates human affairs. "Free will" is just a meaningless slogan if you think God directs and ordains everything.

cinspired

11/15/2004 07:42:04 AM

God would have cursed the U.S. if Kerry had been elected? Not very christian of you now is it? God loves everyone, try to remember this, even though you may not feel the same way. All of life is a learning process, perhaps we should not question Gods plan for us and simply accept that Bush was re-elected to take responsibility and accountability for the mistakes he has made. After all, he is only human. I must remember this, as opposed as I am to Bushs tendency to think war and violence will create peace. WRONG!

bunsinspace

11/15/2004 07:33:55 AM

BS"D Colson's god who "intervenes" in a relatively meaningless political election and remains silent in the face of the atrocity of 911 is P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!!!

skuld81

11/15/2004 12:26:38 AM

I believe that God did have something to do with it, but not in a way you'd think. Bush chose God and being so outward with his religious beliefs showed the country what he believes as far as religion and morals goes and therefore the God loving people of this country who also chose God voted for Bush. I'm not sure if that makes sense to anyone, but it makes sense to me. Just for reference I'm not religious.

F1Fan

11/14/2004 11:13:31 PM

And yes, I do believe YAHWEH (no i'm not jewish, but lean toward their understanding for clearity of Christianity, did intervene in that conference for in Revelations we are given that information which we are given...right? - King DavidII ---------- Why? Why do you choose to believe this? It was a close, vote, it was almost left out except for some trading votes, much like in Congress. That's god in action? Sounds a bit incompetent. Can't he send another son, or something to fix the mess man made? Heck, with thousands of denominations of the "truth" Christianity couldn't be more splintered. God at work?

F1Fan

11/14/2004 11:08:06 PM

GOD gave mankind FREE-WILL - King_Davidll ---------- Sort of a chicken or the egg paradox, because then man used his free will and created a god. In fact, over 5000 of them. Which one did you pick from the list? I guess anyone has a 1/5000 shot at being right, eh? That assumes at least one is a correct guess about what god is.

Cusidh

11/14/2004 10:26:21 PM

As a matter of fact, the 'Nicene Creed' shaped a lot of the conceptions of what the Christianity people seem intent on ramming down my throat *is about.* Did I say, 'Feh?'

Cusidh

11/14/2004 10:20:55 PM

Nicea, as in Council of? Gods, you people want us to live by your 'literal words' and you don't even *know* them. Feh.

King_Davidll

11/14/2004 08:59:25 PM

Hetetic, Well, you know about Neciea (sp), not too many do. So, you must have searched for the truth as we are instructed,(prove all things), good. Then you must also know about the other conferences. The one to deturmine if Mary was a virgin, whether or nor Jesus was Devine, etc. Sooo, your not just a pain in the butt but somewhat have an understanding. Good! And yes, I do believe YAHWEH (no i'm not jewish, but lean toward their understanding for clearity of Christianity, did intervene in that conference for in Revelations we are given that information which we are given...right? It is not I who warns, but scripture. And, if your going to blame Bush or anyone else for what happens then you missed something in your search....HAGD.

noseington

11/14/2004 05:36:13 PM

What a dumb question. You would expect something like this from the nuns in the 1950's.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/14/2004 04:39:08 PM

KingDavidll, Gee, what if Revelation had not made it into the canon? You figure God intervened at Niceia to make sure they finally decided to include it so that you could warn us that we're all heading for apocalyptic trouble in 2007? On second thought, maybe you're right. After 3 more years of Karl Dubya Rovebush...

King_Davidll

11/14/2004 04:24:02 PM

GOD gave mankind FREE-WILL, and said HE will not intevien in the decisions of mankind unless asked to, we are not asking...And even there HE has provided an answer for our salvation! Apparently many of you have neglected to read The Book of Revelations. Were right on schedule. AND, there is only about 3 years for repentance before the next coming....Some will not make it, are you one of "those"?

King_Davidll

11/14/2004 04:15:51 PM

To: pr, sorry I could not get in to respond to your post, but, I don't think your referrence to Ben Franklin's letter to the Danbury Baptists contained enough info. What he said (partial paraphrase) was; Christian religious values must always be in government, government is never to be in religion.(or words to that effect). I used to carry a copy of that letter to show the people who "quoted" the separation of church and state balonie, it finally wore out, I wished I'd made a copy of it and I wish the supreme court could understand it, maybe there would have been a different decision....Now were faced with the godless, communist united nations waiting to take America over.

jacknky

11/14/2004 03:24:00 PM

bessie16. "Yes God controls the affairs of mankind." Highly unlikely.

zammead

11/14/2004 02:35:14 PM

Thank you Greenmother you’ve said EXACTLY what I feel about this god-awful administration in your posts. Rove choreographed the election into a religious fervor. There were/are so many that simply closed their eyes and minds to ISSUES and voted based on "finally a good Christian boy to run the government!". . The religious right seems to be morphing into something no better (or different) than the fundamentalist fanatics in the Middle East, Malaysia, Chechnya, et al. running their jihads in my opinion. It seems to be the beginning of a “you’re either with me or against me and if you’re against me must be pummeled into submission or eradicated” type of thing nowadays. Quite frankly that scares the crap out of me. I don’t believe in the organized religious fanatics outside of America and I SURELY don’t want it to happen here.

meredia

11/14/2004 01:50:38 PM

A conservative, southern Democrat (it’s possible), I believe in God, am disgusted with America’s declining morals & values, & almost voted for Bush. I prayed for insight prior to the election. The answer that came was it’s dangerous & wrong for a political group to present itself as having a claim on God; for being pretentious & alleging an understanding of the will of God; for putting forth a sentiment that those who disagree choose evil. Kerry wasn't my perfect choice. Bush was a bad alternative for personal reasons. As I recall Bush never declared God to be on his side; yet I was deeply offended that he sat idle, allowing that message to permeate his campaign as a political tactic. In the end, no one can know the heart of a person, including Kerry & Bush, except God. To assert that God would have been cursing the nation if Kerry were elected seems a lack of trust, by the claimants, in the divine plan of God if things don't go their way. Maybe those who present themselves as pious are not always so godly.

Bessie16

11/14/2004 10:41:49 AM

Yes God controls the affairs of mankind. But to what end? The same God who saw to it that George Bush was elected at this time is the same God who saw to it that Bill Clinton was elected before him. He is also the same God that saw to it that Hitler came to power. Only now years in the future as the whole world wrestles with the perplexing paramount unsolvable problem foretold in the scripture and is that is the direct result of Hitler's brutality can our human vision see what was to be the end result in terms of God's plan of such madman coming to power. We as humans cannot help it. We are constrained by the pride of our flesh and at the same time we believe we can somehow alter the ultimate plan of God, because we think we know whats going on because, well, we are so intelligent.

kingson100

11/13/2004 10:28:01 PM

The heart of the King is in the hand of God.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/13/2004 04:22:19 PM

Rioliom, Quite right--thanks for the correction.

RioLion

11/13/2004 03:33:50 PM

Heretic - the poll on this site is certainly not sufficient for anyone to beleive that "almost half the nation believes that God directly or indirectly manipulated the outcome of this election" as the sample size is certainly too small and bias. Greenmother needs not fear any Inquisition of pagans or other people as clearly as those that believe in God believe that religious freedom - to believe or not to believe, is also a God given right supported by our constitutional government. Even Geo Bush made statments to that effect several times during the campaign. Thomas Jefferson once made the statement that he had respect for all religions howbeit less for some than others and I feel that same way about yours.

RioLion

11/13/2004 03:26:17 PM

teddikt - teddikt - what we are now seeing in Iraq now is the fighting against foreign fighters who are not having any mercy or pity toward those Iraqis that get in their way. I believe most Iraqis see that America simply wants to rebuild the country and help establish a government of and for the Iraqi people who are very tired of war and depravation and leave their country.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/13/2004 03:11:23 PM

Just noticed, this page has a poll asking if God intervened directly, indirectly, or not at all in this election. 53% said God did not intervene at all. So almost half the nation believes that God directly or indirectly manipulated the outcome of this election. I wonder why they are not outraged that God interfered with political freedom in America.

GREENMOTHER

11/13/2004 03:04:52 PM

what is next?Burning Pagan believers at the stake on Broad St?? Or another Inquisition? Have PEOPLE LEARNED NOTHING from HISTORY???? This kind of radical behavior ends in DISASTER NOT SOMETIMES , EVERY TIME!!! No one is all bad and no one religion is the ONLY RELIGION , GOD is EVERYWHERE and in ALL THINGS! GOD is not exclusive , wake up , and smell the toast. One more thing as a Catholic of 37 yrs , what the heck is the church doing in the BOOTH with us at election time?I have never seen this KIND OF HYPOCRACY! Bush used religion to get our minds off of his HORRIBLE 4 YEAR REIGN.The Church used the election to get our minds off of the PEDOPHILES and the charges they are dealing with. IT IS A SMOKE SCREEN FOLKS and evangelical and catholics alike are falling for it. SHAME ON YA' USE THE MIND THE GOOD LORD BLESSED YOU WITH AND YOU WILL SEE THE WRITING ON THE WALL "HYPOCRACY"!

GREENMOTHER

11/13/2004 02:37:06 PM

AMEN SPIRITFORCE, The bible also treats woman as belongings ,instead of human beings in some cases, because it was written so long ago , should we still go to the pyre and lift up the fatted calf also??? God is crying over these people who live "STANDING ON TOP OF THEIR BIBLE" they need to REALLY read it, let's not mention that it has been REWRITTEN more times than a STEPHEN KING novel. It probably does not EVEN RESEMBLE THE ORIGINAL CRAZY ,THIS IS CRAZY, I laugh at these extremists and now they are in my government in the BIG CHAIR, 'BE AFRAID ,BE VERY AFRAID". I am but I am also hopeful. GOD BLESS!

GREENMOTHER

11/13/2004 02:31:42 PM

Riolion says here,"I feel sorry for the poor liberals that voted against Bush because of their distorted views - they really were incapable of viewing the issues on a rationale basis." I am liberal on some things and conservative on others. NO ONE IS JUST ONE THING, IF you are using your minds. Don't feel sorry for the liberals they are freer than you ever will be. They don't just follow the crowd of popular opinion. Also, there was no rational basis during this election ,it was purely RELIGIOUS because ,Bush could not figure out how to do it any other way. I wish there had been rationality , but sadly the irrationality won. NOT FOR LONG MY FRIEND, NOT FOR LONG. GOD BLESS YOU AND YOURS , OPEN YOUR HEART AND MIND.

SpiritForce

11/13/2004 02:28:36 PM

"The Bible says godly leadership is a sign of God's blessings and a lack of godly leadership is a sign of God's judgment," says Richard Land. All that may be true, but here's where the problem lies: "I don't see Kerry as a godly leader." Well then, since good ol' Richard Land gets to decide who is and who isn't a godly leader, I guess we all know for sure that Bush's re-election is a sign from God.

GREENMOTHER

11/13/2004 02:24:28 PM

HERE'S ANOTHER and this person is not nearly as radical as most?? Erwin McManus says , what WE should be doing? What WE kimosabe? "How do I give people the best options to live the life they should live? How do I create a culture of life?” "to live the life they SHOULD live" what is that , who made them God , he chooses us. He leads us , if we follow great ,if we go off the path ,He tries to bring us back BUT NEVER BY FORCE!! "how do I create a culture" What?? YOU DON'T that's how! God has set forth the cultures we follow, his hand is present in all we do but we MUST CHOOSE for ourselves. NOONE ELSE has the RIGHT BY GOD TO CHOOSE FOR US, that is WHY BUSHS'NEW FOUR YEARS SCARES ME TO DEATH. GOD BLESS USA

GREENMOTHER

11/13/2004 02:15:39 PM

God does not interfere or intervene with our free will, he speaks to us in a small ,gentle ,voice. He would not punish us for putting ANY president in office. Look at the crooks of the past? It's"wagging the dog"! Bush knew he could NOT WIN , with his record ,so he made it a RELIGIOUS ELECTION instead. Morality would surely get the voters minds off of the facts I do fear for our world . This country needs to GET AWAY from this mentality GOD HIMSELF does NOT TELL US WHAT TO DO nor does HE "MAKE" US FOLLOW HIM. btw the BIBLE was written by men ,not by God himself!Ipersonally think HE is crying, that is why it rained on election day , because he knew there would be four more years of bloodshed in Iraq and hate mongering here. GOD HELP US ALL! BLESSINGS AND PEACE TO ALL!

susnow

11/13/2004 01:14:31 PM

If God intervened and put Bush back in the White House, then maybe he'll intervene and allow the Blue States to secede from the Red States. How about that idea, God?

ldybg48

11/13/2004 12:27:44 PM

Sagenav I just read your post today ( did not recieve the article "Did God Intervene" untill today ) and I want to say you make a very good point. Matthew 16:3 And in the morning, it will be foul weather today for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky, but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

teddikt

11/13/2004 11:45:34 AM

Isn't Bush promoting "war" on fundamentalists in Iraq who aren't too far off from those close minded, politically ignorant evangelicals claiming ridiculously that Bush is our "moral" saviour? Hard to believe that there are people who totally misunderstand real truth. Bush and his team designed his election platform in a way that would sway all the conservative evangelicals and it worked like a charm. God wasn't in on this. He was shaking his head in shock.

RioLion

11/13/2004 11:40:27 AM

I do not believe God had to intervene in the election of Geo Bush. All that was needed is for good people to stand up and be counted. I feel sorry for the poor liberals that voted against Bush because of their distorted views - they really were incapable of viewing the issues on a rationale basis. Perhaps for the next time they will go back to sunday school and find out how practical good morals are. For now all they can do is to consult their mental health advisors.

colossians3_12

11/13/2004 10:23:20 AM

Yes, indeed, God decreed that a lying deserter is the most appropriate person to serve as the leader of the free world. No doubt He also blesses the bottom line at Halliburton. The arrogance of Colson, Weyrich, and their ilk is disgusting. They're nothing but modern-day Pharisees who have hijacked God to serve their own egos. They also need to spend more time in the New Testament studying Jesus's message, and less in the Old Testament reveling in misreported actions of a God of Vengeance. People who *really* have moral values need to stand up against this kind of hatemongering. "The Christian Right is neither"

Infidel_Jim

11/13/2004 09:48:29 AM

I believe the evangelicals are right in this respect: This country is sliding into darkness. However, that slide is into a new Dark Age. The Dark Ages was a time when religion, superstition, fear, and ignorance ruled the world. The reelection of George Bush can only hasten that slide!

cancertomnpdx

11/13/2004 08:58:18 AM

The Evangelical Church is currently full of hate for non-believers! The true Jesus has been sold for political power to the President and Carl Rove. You only have to read 1 Corinthians 13:4-7; and 13:13 to see this is true: "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy. Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude; It is not self-seeking, nor easily angered. It keeps no record of wrongdoing. It does not delight in evil, But rejoices in the truth. It always protects, trusts, hopes, and preserves. There is nothing love cannot face; There is no limit to its faith, hope, and endurance. In a word, there are three things that last forever: Faith, hope, and love; But the greatest of them all is love." "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." The Catholic and Evangelical Churches stand close enough together to start a inquisition for the 21st Century. They will have no choice based on the beliefs expressed in this article.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/13/2004 08:42:40 AM

Look at the title of this list--"Did God Intervene?" To many of us, the question is self-evidently ludicrous. On a FACTUAL basis: Bush is a documented liar, and it defies belief that God would install a liar as president (even if we accept the bizarre notion that the creator of the universe is a political junkie). On a LOGICAL basis: if God intervened in favor of Bush, how did that happen (compelling people to vote for Bush or manipulating the counts) and does it mean God did not let America to have a free election? (I'm still waiting for a Bush supporter to answer those questions.) But to those who proclaim the election as God's victory, facts and logic do not matter. Indeed, they are cheering for a man who has publicly shrugged at facts and declared that he deals in "higher truths." This isn't about moral values, or Iraq, or the economy. It is about a total disconnect in how--or if--different people think.

jsucke3

11/13/2004 06:04:34 AM

First, the word is "sacrilegious," not "sacreligious." Next, it is oh-so-difficult to tolerate a person who does not tolerate your beliefs. Certainly, the New Testament seems more concerned with addressing one's own beliefs and with loving others than with forcing one's beliefs on others and punishing those who refuse the offer.

chirho33

11/13/2004 04:15:09 AM

I read this article and my eyes fill with tears. That a great nation has been so completely taken over by evangelicals and their allies only shows how morally depraved America has been become. All the evidence has shown that Bush lied to America about Iraq, has led the most dishonest and secretive administration in our history and started a brutal war which has killed thousands of innocent men, women and children. If that is not a morally depraved and indecent man, then I don't know what is. That he is supported so fervently by these evangelicals solely because he is "born again" and for no other reason, negates any claim these sad people can make that they are "moral". They are not. They are a cancer on the Body of Christ. They will destroy this country and bring ruin to the Church. Shame on them!

thepamster2

11/13/2004 02:59:59 AM

Outrageous! Bush is God sent and Kerry is Satan's spawn? And since when has God condoned starting wars and killing people. It's simply people with their own opinions and agendas voting someone in. God gave us free will, we use that free will to vote our choice. God does not, in his own right, choose who will win an election!

rboylern

11/13/2004 02:36:44 AM

This is a scandal!

Cusidh

11/13/2004 02:28:33 AM

To make a claim such as "George W. Bush was chosen by God" or "George W. Bush is God's chosen one" seems sacreligious to me. By making such a bold statement he sounds more like the "Anti-Christ"! Satan LOVES war, murder, power, greed & spite, atc., etc You'd be surprised how rarely one hears that from Christians... I don't buy this God vs Satan bag, but there's more than a few modern-day Samaritans got your back on this. Speak it. Stones shouting is usually major geological damage and all.

Palilani

11/13/2004 02:27:42 AM

It's my personal belief that God created politics and especially politicians as comic relief. The secret is we are not to take them as seriously as they (the politicians) take themselves. As for the moral values flap in the AP exit poll, the question and choice of answers were seriously flawed!

jbroane

11/13/2004 02:19:48 AM

It is absolutely tragic that anyone with a reasonable cerebral capacity could subscribe to the notion that God intrevened to elect, perhaps the most magnanimous hyprocrite on the planet. He is truly Pinocchio in every respect - I mean, the colossal lie he forwarded about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq- done simply to insure his re-elction is "sick." God does not love "liars" and surely did not bless his fraudulent rise to a second term. It is despicable that these conservative Christians dare to go public with such heresy - Bush will "shoot himself in the foot" sooner than we think - meanwhile his lies are non-stop!! Enough of this Jbroane@aol.com

synthsz1

11/12/2004 07:38:25 PM

The Question: "Did God Intervene"?? The Answer?? Nope. Karl Rove gave those poor suckers who voted Bush in the meat they wanted.....translated: 'Values' are the opium of the people. Synth..proud American, proud Democrat and practicing Catholic who voted for John Kerry

trulyalarmed

11/12/2004 07:38:06 PM

god is not a cosmic santa clause as the right wing fundementals portray god to be therefore god had nothing to do with the election. it is very dangerous to faith to make such wild accusations, but the more the fundies do this, the more they reveal themselves for what they are; misguided, superstisious, hocus pocus minded wind bags who do not serve god they serve themselves. they are just doing a good job of lying(well not good enough if some of us figured out their plan.)

VeronicaVeil

11/12/2004 06:07:54 PM

Heretic for Christ - Thank You for your kind words & warm welcome! :)

Heretic_for_Christ

11/12/2004 05:19:23 PM

Veronica, Welcome to Beliefnet and thank you for a thought-provoking message.

VeronicaVeil

11/12/2004 05:15:15 PM

I come from a family of Preachers & Teachers and I've come to understand that God does not like nor condone wars waged in His name. The same goes for using Him (esp. in politics) to benefit the few. To make a claim such as "George W. Bush was chosen by God" or "George W. Bush is God's chosen one" seems sacreligious to me. By making such a bold statement he sounds more like the "Anti-Christ"! Satan LOVES war, murder, power, greed & spite, atc., etc., the list goes on & on. God also gave us 'FreeWill'. Now may be the time to start using it! Oh, BTW the "Veri-Chip" ID implant (brought to you by the "Carlyle Group") has recently been approved by the FDA for humans under the "medical emergency identification" marketing ploy. Take caution & be aware.

mykal100

11/12/2004 02:34:18 PM

Personally, I cannot understand why the evangelicals aren't backlashing against Bush. If I was an evangelical, I would feel that BushCo regarded me as a simplistic moron. Just as a pimp tells his ho's what it is they want to hear, so does Bush to the evangelicals. Bush could have a '666' birthmark appear on his head, and so long as W says "Jesus" every couple of sentences, these evengelicals would still support him. Pimpdaddy Bush knows how to sweettalk the stable of ho's.

Pelzer5

11/12/2004 12:35:10 PM

SWDorrance EXACTLY! Anyone see the HBO special last night about letters home? I cried the whole time, war is wrong, especially when it is not needed. When I thought about the American soldiers that have died for nothing I thought about the thousands of Iraqi's that have died as well. I am sure their families and country are grieving just as much for their lives lost. Any life lost in this scenario is a tradgedy.

jacknky

11/12/2004 09:27:14 AM

docjohn, "Frankly, I have never understood why God answers some prayers and not others." I remember when the cousin of my wife was daignosed with cancer. The whole large family gathered around her in the hospital room and laid hands on her and prayed. Holy water was sprinkled on her head. There was much crying and catharsis and everyone felt better afterward. Six months later after suffering excruciating pain she died at the age of 49. In my opinion, praying makes us feel good. It does little or nothing to change a Universe that is basically indifferent to our petty concerns. That's what I see when I attempt to look at the world without my fears and desires.

SWDorrance

11/12/2004 09:23:17 AM

I think that whatever choice we made here Bush or Kerry that we have a God that is constantly setting up opportunities for us to evolve and evolve until we are in perfect communion with him, and then he can reveal himself to us. It is a Bartian view where God who exists beyond the constraints of time is in a future where we are reconciled, he is in the process of making.

SWDorrance

11/12/2004 09:16:57 AM

Pelzer5: It doesn't sound happy there for you. I often look at those grain production figures and wonder if it wouldn't be more realistic to feed the world's people instead of send bombs.

Pelzer5

11/12/2004 01:24:33 AM

SWDorrance I have just been alittle more enlightened about the effects of farming since moving here. If we had this conversation a couple of years ago I wouldn't have been as concerned but since being up here and seeing the potential devastation that could result from unsupervised farms could be desasterose to our earth. My son and I have been sick all the time since moving here. My in-laws own and operate an elevator which is on our homeplace and the dust from the crops and the chaf from the corn when harvested. It is bad enough that I am convincing my husband to transfer to Florida.

Pelzer5

11/12/2004 01:13:05 AM

jlaws I grew up in the Assembly of God church.We had a great preacher that never let you fall asleep but unfortunately I was also a missionette. I was taught horrific things, I would never go to or take my children to an Assembly of God church. For those who remember me making this statement before, I was told that if you have an abortion it is used to make make up and shampoo. I obviosly will never forget such a horrific statement and do not plan on submiting my children to such demonic statements! So if there are more mosques that AOG churches then this would be there own fault!

Tyrsson

11/11/2004 11:25:04 PM

"Heck in a few hundred years perhaps polytheistic paganism will be back in vogue..." From your lips to the gods' ears. I certainly hope you're right. "...and we will be teaching kids that Thor is responsible for the thunder," ChicagoHeathen covered this quite well. Science and polytheistic religion are not mutually exclusive. Moreover, you're making simplistic stereotypes of polytheism that have very little basis in reality. "...or perhaps that "the Devil" runs unchecked on Oct. 31 and thus it won't be safe to go out after dark." Which, of course, has nothing to do with polytheistic belief.

SWDorrance

11/11/2004 10:43:57 PM

Pelzer5: Actually it should be renamed the soil building service not the soil conservation service. Conservation implies the mindset of scarcity, and building adopts the mindset of ability and abundance.

ChicagoHeathen

11/11/2004 10:40:38 PM

Peak religion now ? I guess that depends on what denomination you worship. Fact: There are more Mosques in America now than Assembly of God Churches. Hate to break this to ya, jlaws, but there are other faiths out there that aren't Christian. Those people are just as religious as the Christians are. Sorry to pull away the blinkers...

ChicagoHeathen

11/11/2004 10:40:17 PM

Heck in a few hundred years perhaps polytheistic paganism will be back in vogue and we will be teaching kids that Thor is responsible for the thunder... Why, mcc, are pagans somehow undesirable to you? I hate to tell you this, but there are plenty of pagans and heathens right now, in the uSA. I happen to be Asatru, and I do believe in Thor. Yes, he brings the thunder. But yes, thunder is the result of the static charges in the air and clouds and the opposing charges in the earth causing sparks to fly. Just because i believe that Thor is the force behind the thunder doesn't mean I don't understand or believe in the natural scientific processes that cause it. One does not preclude the other. Pagans and heathens are just as rational and sensible as any other folk. Which means, I suppose, that we're just as idiotic. ;) And for all of you wanting to impose a Christian Nation upon us, just remember, there are other faiths out there, and we have rights too.

ChangeMinister

11/11/2004 10:16:09 PM

I would suggest it’s still time for sack-clothes and our heart on our knees regardless of who’s in office. It’s also time for us human beings to realize that the future is created by our intentions and the choices we make as a result including voting. God gave us free will remember? Seems we forget the lessons of history and continue to create convenient excuses to not take responsibility for the state of the world around us. We must replace motives based on anger, delusion/ fear, and craving with love, compassion, confidence in God, and gratitude. We are letting Mammon get its way because we’ve forgotten our way. Look in the mirror and ask- am I ready to see Jesus? Read His Words in red and be challenged.

mcc99

11/11/2004 10:15:18 PM

Disturbing indeed. Now why is it many of these same people claiming God gave GW the Nov. 2 victory will object to any claims made by Islamist terrorists that God gave them success on 9/11/01? You can't have it both ways. This tendency to believe God is involved when things go the way we want them to but that the devil or something else was involved when not is a pefect example of the kind of cognitive dissonance that permeates religious fundamentalism of all kinds. I do believe we are seeing clear evidence of the rollback of centuries of work trying to de-bunk human thought as it applies to causation. Heck in a few hundred years perhaps polytheistic paganism will be back in vogue and we will be teaching kids that Thor is responsible for the thunder, or perhaps that "the Devil" runs unchecked on Oct. 31 and thus it won't be safe to go out after dark. I see the next Dark Ages looming and frankly am glad that I will be planted by the time it gets into full steam.

SWDorrance

11/11/2004 09:42:40 PM

Pelzer, no i do not mean confined livestock, I mean open range and the next chapter of the clean water act, non point souce water pollution and sedimentation. Apparently dirt is a pollutant, if you have a dirt road it contributes any silt to the runoff that is non point source water pollution. If you have steep hillsides and the land has a landslide during a heavy rainstorm as this area is prone to it is pollution. They don't even have to prove that it exists, they can invoke it because it looks like it might happen, or an endangered species might want to make a home there. As far as making topsoil I mean getting grass either grazed or lain over to make contact with the earth encouraging carbon and mineral cycles and not choking out new growth.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/11/2004 09:02:38 PM

I'm still waiting for someone to explain HOW God intervened in favor of Bush. Compelling Kerry supporters to vote for Bush? Manipulating the data collected by the voting machines? And if Bush won because of God's intervention, does that mean Kerry would have won otherwise, but God decided not to let America have a free election?

Rigel5740

11/11/2004 08:40:23 PM

I'm sure G-d saw to it that Bush won re-election. Why? He holds us responsible for our actions. People who value having more wealth rather than defending the country or working their way up have had their way, and all of us are going to reap the consequences. It's too bad the minority of people who voted against Bush have to suffer along with the rest of America.

tapit123

11/11/2004 05:18:14 PM

By their works you will know them...

Pelzer5

11/11/2004 04:04:56 PM

SWDorrance Do you mean gentically engineering top soil? or conserving what we have? The one thing the clean water act has done is controll the waste spills by the confinements. If an "accidental spill" results then the farmer is fined a pretty hefty amount for contaminating a river. You would have to agree with this, otherwise we would have al kinds of "accidental spills". It is costly to get rid of the bi-product of a confinement. Kerry chose Iowa state for it's advances scientifically in farming. It is amazing, I complain about how conservative and hypocritical Iowa is but it is also scientifically advanced pertaining to farming and it's effects on the enviornment. Kerry realized these advances and therefore chose Iowa State. Does the rest of the country have bio-diesel and ethenol super unleaded? I had spoke about this once before that my parents from another state were shocked that our super unleaded is cheaper than unleaded because of the ethanol.

Pelzer5

11/11/2004 03:53:19 PM

SWDorrance Grazing, as in reference to livestock? Our state and all those that use hog lots and cattle lots are destroying the air quality. We have approximately 90 acres at our home site and if the wind is from the south we cannot open our windows or stand to be outside with my kids because our neighbor(aprox, 1/2 mile away) has a cattle confignment that makes the air noxious within a mile or two. The main thing forcing small farms under are the conglomerates getting the financial aid that was meant for the small farmers also the price of crops. Every small farmer with 1000 acres or less have to sell at harvest which of course the prices are outrageously low. Last year soybeans were posting 6 and 7 dollars per bushell and now they are probably 3 0r 4, Let alone the price of the equipment. I am sure that some people would be suprised to know that new combines cost over 100,000 dollars.

indy11

11/11/2004 03:07:17 PM

Bush and the evangelicals are not Christians...they are capitalists and nationalists who use the our Saviour's name for advancement of political and financial power...

SWDorrance

11/11/2004 02:55:24 PM

Pelzer his website didn't say much about that, and I am in another branch of agriculture called grazing. The proposals he advanced would not have helped small operations it would have forced them under. I have been through repeated required courses from many agencies. BTW he still doesn't get agriculture in my opinion. He sided squarely with the environmental groups who want more and more control. I like no till farming, I use it whenever possible for replanting of native grasslands. I do however think the ESA is a juggernaut which is being used to stop landowners using their land in the best way they know how. It elevates bureaucrats above the experienced landowner no matter how forward thinking the landowner may be. I am working to build topsoil. The ESA and Clean water act do not recognize that. They are a small step away from overwhelming control which may make many enterprises unprofitable.

tapit123

11/11/2004 02:46:43 PM

God blessed America by re-electing Bush. Whew! It's a releif to know which party He supports! Let me see- under Bush we have had war, corruption, lying, division, poverty, torture, alienation, fear and unprecedented environmental destruction with promises of more of the same. And God's curse under Kerry would consist of????

Pelzer5

11/11/2004 02:09:37 PM

Bush has announced plans to select Dr. W. David Hager to head up FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Hager is pro-life and refuses to prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women. In his book he suggests that women who suffer from PMS should read the bible and pray and believes that the birth control pill is an abortifacient!!!!! Those who feel this is out of line with the millions of people that take the pill please write the president and tell him of your opposition to the appointment. president@whitehouse.gov

Pelzer5

11/11/2004 01:33:49 PM

SWDorrance Your assumption of Kerry not being aggriculturaly friendly is incorrect. The only reason the Iowa election was so close is because of Kerry's agricultural beliefs. He had plans to meet at Iowa State University within his first 100 days. This was to be correspondence to advance agriculture science, alternative energy, and I would assume the effects of farming on the land. It has been estimated that every year farmers lose 1 inch of top soil from their land. What is going to happen if this is not stopped or reversed. Last year in Nebraska ther was a crisis of dust storms and erosion problems, this was because of the farmers who refuse to switch to no till farming. Every year advances are made but having someone implement the advances becomes the critical aspect of conservation. There is also an increase in asthma and other illnesses due to the chemical bi-product of conglomeret farms.

docjoc

11/11/2004 01:26:17 PM

There was a time I would have agreed with you that God is only a Spirit and he never enters or alters the physicial world. But now having seen God change physicial things, physical things that I can not understand how he did it, I can not longer maintain that position. God is spirit but when he desires he does the unusual and change the physicial world. Or to put it another way he alters the way he usually does things.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/11/2004 01:18:41 PM

Docjoc, That is an entirely fair and honest answer, for which I think you sincerely. I guess we differ in that you proclaim absolute assurance that God answers prayers even though the timing and manner of those answers may be incomprehensible. My position is that God's realm is spiritual, not physical; I never have to wrestle with the old paradox of how an omnicient and omnipotent god who represents perfect goodness can permit injustice in the world, because I do not expect God, who is spirit, to intervene in miraculous fashion in the physical world.

docjoc

11/11/2004 01:11:45 PM

Frankly, I have never understood why God answers some prayers and not others. But I am absolutely sure that he hears and answers prayer. For example I have wondered why the scripture says that God heard the cries of the children of Israel in Egypt for 400 years, before he took any action to deliver them. That seems too long to me for God to hear and not take action to deliver them. If I were God I would have taken action sooner. But God did not. Why? I don't know. I guess we both need to ask God about that.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/11/2004 12:12:39 PM

Ah, docjoc, Do you also believe the old antisemitic saying that God does not hear the prayers of a Jew? In 2000 years of crusades, pogroms, and holocausts, when Jews were being exterminated by good Christians, they cried for God's salvation. Why did he not answer their prayers? In the Sudan today, genocide goes on. Are you seriously arguing that God intervened to install Bush in the White House, but he can't be bothered to intervene against genocide?

docjoc

11/11/2004 11:38:19 AM

Heretic for Christ...yes the scripture clearly commands Christians to pray and says that God hears and answers our prayers. I prayed and God answered. I did not ask God to elect Bush or Kerry. I asked him to further his kingdom by forgiving our sin and our nations sin and to place in office Godly men and women. I trusted and still trust God for the answer he gave.

SWDorrance

11/11/2004 11:22:04 AM

I do expand my knowledge and "know thy enemy" is a familiar phrase to my lexicon. I enjoy Teaching Company courses on many subjects. Have you hear the phrase "don't give the devil a home" which is why I haven't read mein kampf. Something which turned to such evil really is unnecessary, I prefer to know my enemy without delving into something that I am sure sounds perfectly rational but turned horribly evil. I know my relatives left in Germany wrote my family that they didn't know about the man Hitler, but what they did know was that they had bread and butter. Personally I shut off when the rhetoric runs into "He's so stupid" the same way that I shut down when evangelicals say "Muslims are animals, they are not even human" Both of those paths lead to ugliness and dehumanization which allows atrocities to be repeated.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/11/2004 11:14:46 AM

SWDorrance, Here, I agree with you--Kerry's campaign was so paralyzed by a fear of offending anyone that his positions were often incoherent. As for constantly criticizing Bush, I have stated that I applauded his decisive actions after September 11, in driving the Taliban from Afghanistan. However, I agree with the experts who regarded the invasion of Iraq as a distraction and a national security disaster (and remember that the elder Bush has explained in detail why an invasion of Iraq after the first Gulf War would have been a mistake). However, the reason I voted for Kerry (or anyway, against Bush) was based less on a rejection of Bush's policies than on the way this man, who promised to be a uniter and not a divider, has engaged in such ceaseless demagoguery that the nation is now more polarized than it was during Vietnam. I can forgive bad policies, but not demagoguery.

SWDorrance

11/11/2004 10:59:18 AM

Heretic: Bush does things I don't like to defend, but the fact is that he is not wrong all the time. Keep it up that is what I got most tired of with Kerry is the WRONG WRONG WRONG while offering so little to show a right way out. I looked at his website and there was no meat to the plan. I also found out my industry was lumped together with forestry and mining and virtually labeled as enemies of his state to be. It is hard to get an eastern limousine liberal to look like he could be friendly to agriculture. He doesn't even look like he knows how to pot a plant, I have no common ground to build trust on.

sagenav

11/11/2004 10:52:36 AM

Okay lets play the apocalyptic game: Wouldn't it be ironic if Bush were in fact the "anti-Christ" and this large block (%21) of Evangelical voters were actually fooled by Satan into supporting Bush? Maybe it was Satan whispering into your ear telling you who to vote for and not God. This would make more sense, it just doesn't sound like God to give people free will and then impose a certain leader on them.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/11/2004 10:37:07 AM

Docjoc, 1) If the election outcome resulted from Christians' prayers, that means God was persuaded to intervene when otherwise he might not have done so. 2) If God would have intervened in favor of Bush anyway, then your prayers were irrelevant. 3) If God intervened in favor of Bush, did he do it by compelling people who otherwise would have voted for Kerry to vote instead for Bush, or by manipulating the data collected by the voting machines? 4) If God intervened in favor of Bush in either of those ways, does it mean that America would otherwise have freely elected Kerry, and that God decides when America can have a free election and when it cannot? 5) If God intervened in favor of Bush, does it mean that God thinks Bush's cries of "Lord, Lord!" outweigh his documented history of lies? 6) Or is the entire notion that God has favorite politicians an incredible load of nonsense?

docjoc

11/11/2004 10:06:48 AM

On Monday, Nov.1, I fasted and as I begun to pray I seemed to be led to pray that God would place people in office who would do his will and work here in the US. I asked forgiveness for my own numerous sins and for the many sins of our nation. I asked him to remember all those who came before us, who prayed and acted that America would be that "city upon a hill" to be a beacon for doing God's will and work on this earth. I know God heard me and the prayers of many other Christians. The best part of this election is that Christians in both parties will be listened to in future national elections. Thank you God for continuing to bless our land.

hamlet316

11/11/2004 10:02:27 AM

I agree with sagenav. But even more to the point: the Christian faith is being hijacked by a neoconservative Washington D.C. the White House doesn't care about upholding moral values. all it cares about is capturing your vote. it is disgusting and evangelicals around this nation are hypnotized by it. politics is power, nothing more. and by the way, a vote for George W. Bush is a vote for Condi Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, Karl Rove, and his whole cabinet of snakes. One thing is for sure: George W. Bush will have a lot to answer for come judgement day.

jacknky

11/11/2004 10:02:14 AM

Looking at the posts from the right wing Christians here one can sense a lot of fear. Ya'll are very afraid and I guess that fear contributed to Bush being re-elected. When we are afraid we circle the wagons and look out for ourselves. Osama must be very gleeful.

jacknky

11/11/2004 09:59:45 AM

heretic, "No, I don't expect politicians to be honest," I wish we did expect our politicians to tell us the truth. I personally was outraged by the lies the Bush administration told in order to take us into a war with Iraq. Perhaps if we had expected more truth they would have been held accountable for their perfidy and kicked out.

sagenav

11/11/2004 09:56:47 AM

crajchel: We are not sheep.

sagenav

11/11/2004 09:54:28 AM

If Bush is so divinely connected why was/is he so wrong on the Iraq war? If Bush is so Christ-like why does he cater to the rich, why does he believe in the death penalty, why does he start unnecessary wars? America decided not to hold this man accountable base on perceived moral ideals. This is what's amazing to many on the progressive side.

sagenav

11/11/2004 09:47:39 AM

swdorrance: If it sounded like I was attacking you then I apologize. However, I do think people need to learn about and study those things that they don't necessarily agree with or believe in. Have you heard the term, "know thy enemy"? If we don't learn from history then we are destined to repeat it, as the saying goes.

crajchel

11/11/2004 08:15:45 AM

Personally I am glad George Bush was re-elected. But not based on this article. I don't have enough faith in any human to suggest that Bush is who God picked. I am a right wing conservative though, so I agree with many of the stances to which George Bush claims to agree. I viewed it as a choice between two bad choices. I viewed Kerry as the worse of the two choices presented to us. I place my faith in the Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We are sheep being led to slaughter. And one day we (mankind)will meet the wolves. So I am cautious of anyone who may be that wolf in sheep's clothing.

jlaws007

11/11/2004 07:26:23 AM

Peak religion now ? I guess that depends on what denomination you worship. Fact: There are more Mosques in America now than Assembly of God Churches. I don't know if you find that as disturbing as I do, but I do know it follows the prohecy that America will be defeated from within.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/11/2004 06:42:06 AM

jlaws007, No, I don't expect politicians to be honest, but there is a difference between the routine hypocrisy of most politicians and the hateful demagoguery of Bush. Back when we were a God-fearing nation? YOU read your history--the level of religiosity in America is at a peak right now. A half century ago, when you say that America was a God-fearing nation, we had institutional racism. As for politics and God, I have repeated sneered at the notion that God favors any politician. So which candidate was it who claimed that God had selected him to be president? Yes, jlaws007, they all lie; but some are damned liars and hypocrites.

jlaws007

11/11/2004 06:29:16 AM

To Heretic for Christ: How many honest politicians do you know ? I do not doubt your belief in God, but politics has nothing to do with God. In fact politics represent just about everything God stands for. You can NOT serve God and Mammon at the same time. Everthing on any politicians agenda involves money. I am not a rich man, nor do I care to be. It also states in the Bible that the rich will be as scarce as Hen's teeth in Heaven. Do I belive Bush lies ? Yes. Do I believe Kerry lies ? Yes. And you can follow that line back as far as you want. Maybe in the 50's when we were still a God fearing Country there might have been one. Even JFK, and M. Luther King jr. had agenda's beyond the ones the media picked up on. Do your History.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/11/2004 06:25:16 AM

jlaws007, Let me see if I have this straight: everything is predestined AND we are being given more time to choose how to live and serve? More time to make the choice that we have already been predestined to make?

jlaws007

11/11/2004 06:19:14 AM

To clarify my last post I said that God is giving us more time. I also said that everything is predestined. That might sound contradictory, so I will rephrase my statement. Jesus said that the day, hour, and minute of Judgement was already destined. However, what I meant by giving us more time is the Good time we have to choose how we will serve, or not. There are going to be some very horrible times on the horizon. I think God would spare as many of us as will listen and follow from the atrocities to come.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/11/2004 06:12:31 AM

SWDorrance, Kerry attacked Bush on the factual evidence, whereas Bush lied about Kerry's record in the Senate. If you are one of those who just distrust liberal democrats in general, then listen instead to Diplomats and Military Commanders for Change, a nonpartisan coalition of 27 career diplomats, intelligence experts, and military leaders, many of whom served the elder Bush and Ronald Reagan; they called for the defeat of Bush on grounds that his recklessness has endangered American security. Listen to the 9 Nobel Prize economists who characterized Bush's record on the economy as a disaster. Listen to the large group of scientists who deplored the politicalization of science during the past four years. Never before in American history has there been such a torrent of criticism of a president from nonpartisan experts, because never before has a president been so wrong, so consistently.

jlaws007

11/11/2004 06:00:40 AM

I believe in my heart that the Revelation of St. John is rushing at us at a rate that we are not prepared for. Sadly, some will never be. Is Gearge Bush a perfect man ? NO !! However, other than one how many do you know ? I believe God in his infinite wisdom knows how unprepared we are, and I also believe there are certain other events which will set this cataclysmic event into motion. I believe God intervened using Bush as a way of giving us a little more time to choose sides. The "Politically incorrectness of the use of the word God" Multidenominational churches. Give me a break. Sharing his house with Muslims, Hinduists, or any other sect is as far as I'm concerned blasphemy. When God visit's "Like a thief in the night" I plan on being one stolen. Then you whom believe that God approves Homosexuality, and serving Mammon to discuss these belief's amongst yourselves. I hope there are alot of you with me, because I think time is very short.

Cusidh

11/11/2004 02:35:21 AM

There's just all kinds of celebrities that worked for Diebold, aren't there? :) Anyway, we'll just have to quote them on this once Bush makes a few more key screwups.

cloud-eagle

11/11/2004 01:53:34 AM

If Bush was finally elected for the first time it was extreme ignorance that got him there. 55 Million people voted against him. His alleged win was the narrowist in over 50 years. Man's money put Bush in office along with the most deceit and lies I've witnessed ever. The media is corporately owned. Corporations run (and ruin) and own Bush and America. The people are duped. And we are all in a lot of trouble. God loves the Iraqi's just as much as he loves Americans. So far Bush and his owner Cheney have slaughterd 100,000 of them in the name of God. God in not pleased. War for oil is ungodly.

cloud-eagle

11/11/2004 01:43:00 AM

God does not get involved in the good and bad actions of man. Free choice, free will are the gifts he gave us all. We are all children of the one God. (What man does is usually not holy or of God. Man's persona is quite a distance from his Soul -- that which one really is). If the commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill is not lived how then shall others be inspired by so called "Christianity." Ought we preach less and emulate more?

heatherfields57

11/11/2004 01:35:00 AM

Just look at what in store for your country! http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/neo-conned.htm

ChicagoHeathen

11/11/2004 01:25:52 AM

"But judging George to not be a good christian is after all being judgemental." Gods, I hope that people are being judgemental when they are choosing their President. I hope they are putting them to the highest scrutiny, and judging accordingly. Myself, I don't give a rat's hairy heiney whether or not the Shrub is a good Christian. I judge him by the standards of my faith, for to be a leader to me he has to at least fulfil its minimums. And he is a liar and an oathbreaker. I find that unacceptable in a President. Yes, I know, it's sadly the nature of modern politicians to lie. but the Shrub makes it into an artform. In 2000 he stole the election. I do not think he would have been elected this time around if he had not been given the presidency last time. So he was not my President then, and he is not my president now. He is an usurper. I don't suppose he'd like it if a foreign country came in here and removed him.

SWDorrance

11/11/2004 12:45:58 AM

BTW sagenav: Go ahead and keep attacking people, just like Kerry did and you will continue to bury any chance of progression with negative attacks. Do you realize how sick America got of "George W Bush did it all wrong". Here you have someone who seeks to incorporate all people reguardless of sex. orient. and you just shot yourself in the foot because you couldn't build a pleasant exchange upon that ground. Keep it up and then the whacko righties will always be in office because your diatribe doesn't allow for diversity unless it flows directly from the left. Seek no common ground and no one will bother to visit what will become your island. BTW it's not a few bucks it will cost me, it means we will probably have to sell out and then some developer will get to put a subdivision on it. Some victory for the environment!

SWDorrance

11/11/2004 12:02:16 AM

sagenav: It is amazing to me that I can be called closed minded for not reading Mein Kampf.

snickerdoodle

11/11/2004 12:00:05 AM

I don't believe that Bush's re-election was Divine intervention. God gives all of us choices and we have to live with the results. Salvation is a choice with far reaching consequences but God doesn't force us to do it. I do believe that people's belief in God may have influenced whether or not they chose a candidate because of what they thought, this might be an indirect form of God's influence butthey might have still chosen a candidate that God didn't really want. I voted for Bush but not really for religious reasons and I think that God is above human politics.

sagenav

11/10/2004 11:24:02 PM

And another point: Liberals are commonly called communists; conservatives are usually referred to as fascists. Its a right wing/left wing thing. Just an FYI.

sagenav

11/10/2004 11:23:30 PM

Wow, where to start. First, of all I didn't compare Hitler to Bush. All I said was that according to some of Hitler's writings he had some Christian philosophies. And I said that I didn't think Bush is Christ-like. Second, that fact that you don't read what you don't agree with doesn't surprise me. Third, the constitution is a contract between the state and the people guaranteeing certain rights, it should not be used as a short-sighted political tool. During the 1950s there were conservatives that wanted the constitution amended so that blacks could not marry whites. fourth, as for the environment, I'm not sure what you are talking about. I'm talking about Bush relaxing clean water and clean air regulations. He seems to think that we have room to allow more toxins in our water and air. Yes, I have a problem with that, whether it costs you few bucks or not.

SWDorrance

11/10/2004 08:44:50 PM

Sagenav: BTW the environmental laws you are so endeared to are very difficult for people who make a living "off the land" to live with. In a way it's like the fascist liberals have invaded my private space and want complete powre of oversight. It makes it hell for me to accomplish my work without permits from 200 fools who have no notion of what I may need to do in my enterprise. I find it largely a "make work" field which wouldn't exist without the scaremongering propaganda they expouse.

SWDorrance

11/10/2004 08:42:42 PM

Sagenav: I found it interesting because you drew a comparison to Hitler, and that you read Hitler, I prefer not to give that train of thought a station to stop in. I guess that I am prejudiced, I don't read fascist literature. But I don't think your comparison of Bush to Hitler is honest. I am not in one camp on any one issue, I think that Bush did an interesting deal with the ammendment on marriage, the way he sent it out for an ammendment. It means we have time to get fearful people used to the idea. Personally I like the idea of Christian communities supporting relationships straight or gay. I think that more people included in God's loving earthly body will be better for us all.

trulyalarmed

11/10/2004 07:14:56 PM

Aren't political elections, wars, greed, etc. secular activities? Why do you want to mix politics, religion, and government. Why do you want America to be like some of the Eastern Countries where there is only one allowed religion, no freedom of choice, and those who do not conform are executed? Do you really want us to become another Afghanistan? Iraq? Iran? yes justme25 they do. they want to impose their morality on everyone, because it's what their god says to do. they forget the part in their bible where it says their kingdom is not of this earth. they are deceiving, lying, hypocritical individuals who no more serve god than the man in the moon. at best they serve themselves.

sagenav

11/10/2004 07:07:39 PM

SWDorrance: First, I'm not sure why you find it interesting that I read Hitler. I have read some of Mein Kampf among many other historical documents because I have a Master Degree in history and study that kind of thing. Ignorance is not bliss, ignorance is just ignorance. Don't you find it ironic that conservatives have always been the ones against equality of the sexes, the races and now the homosexuals? Progressives have had to battle against conservative opposition to equal rights for years. I find Bush "unChrist-like" because he protects his own interests, starts illegal wars that kill thousands of people, tries to make laws and amend the constitution to oppress a minority group, relaxes environmental laws that protect our air, water and food; I could go on and on. By the way, what made you think Kerry would "cut and run" in Iraq? Maybe you've been listening to too many campaign commercials. I find it sad that you voted for Bush based on that reason.

justme25

11/10/2004 06:03:46 PM

Excuse me! Don't some of you Christian types believe that Christ said: "Render unto Caesar (sp?) the things that are his and unto the Lord the things that are His." Isn't this in the New Testament? Aren't political elections, wars, greed, etc. secular activities? Why do you want to mix politics, religion, and government. Why do you want America to be like some of the Eastern Countries where there is only one allowed religion, no freedom of choice, and those who do not conform are executed? Do you really want us to become another Afghanistan? Iraq? Iran? I do not think there will be any "American Military" to rescue us when this happens here. The election is over. Both received approximately 50% of the vote. No mandate. Just get on with it. Do something good for your neighbor, your country, your family.

SWDorrance

11/10/2004 05:52:25 PM

Most Christians struggle to be Christ like, Christ being a perfect example. I don't read Hitler but I find it interesting that you do. I do know however that Hitler was agnostic, or Goering said that. I do see the hand of God in everything as the almighty is in control of the world. I see that the rejection of evil in the wake of WW2 was a wonderful thing. We now treat (or are supposed to treat) women as equals, all races as valuable, and peaceful aid is the ideal of all powerful countries who wish to be moral examples to the world. Being human of course, and still developing, we make mistakes, but God is setting us up to learn and learn again. I don't know God's plan, but judging George to not be a good christian is after all being judgemental. Personally I voted for him because I thought Kerry was going to cut and run in Iraq, and that I think his postwar activities with the VVAW would have made for a disastrous relationship with the military chiefs.

watsy

11/10/2004 05:38:45 PM

I don't think that it's reasonable to give credit/blame to God in terms of the election. The credit should go to those orchestrating the Republican political platform. Look at the diversity of the people voting Republican. Religious fanatics and NRA members. Social conservatives- most of the south and midwest. Fiscal conservatives- although those who really believe in balanced budgets and small government are frustrated, they still aren't ready to jump ship. Democrats are in need of a plan. The environment, civil rights, and help for the poor just doesn't seem to be getting the Democrats elected. Any ideas?

sagenav

11/10/2004 05:03:36 PM

No one really knows what religion Hitler considered himself. There is evidence in his writings that he was indeed Christian. But that doesn't really matter. Many call themselves Christian but aren't very "Christ-like", George W. Bush being one of them.

manypaths

11/10/2004 05:01:15 PM

America was formed over 200 years ago by people fleeing a religious leadership in Europe. True Americans are those that shun religious leadership and keep their own religious beliefs to themselves. Bush and his predjudiced "base" of religious "FANATICS" (terrorists if your religion is other than Christianity) are attempting to turn the tables on the foundation of this country. We will NOT let them. We have been to war in this country over protecting the American idea, and we WILL DO IT AGAIN if need be. Have fun at church on Sundays. I'll be at the NRA range, sighting in my scope. STOP DISTROYING AMERICA WITH YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS!!!!! Love Jesus, question a Christian.

watsy

11/10/2004 04:14:47 PM

I don't get these evangelical churches. Why do they think that God is going to bless us with Bush in the next four years when we weren't blessed in the last four? I would think that anyone who has loved ones fighting in Iraq would not consider themselves blessed.Interests rates can only increase, thanks to our huge deficit. Is that a blessing? We could always call the Sierra Club and get an opinion of God's latest blessing. Somehow I don't think it would be favorable. Oh,silly me,I keep forgetting the important thing. We will be blessed. The gay folks probably won't be getting married. Why is it that I can't seem to remember the things that are really important to our country.

SWDorrance

11/10/2004 03:17:52 PM

Whoa hold on now Tammy Suzanne, Adolf Hitler was not a Christian, Catholic or otherwise, at one point he advocated Islam because it made good soldiers. He took over far to many enterprises to be a Republican. What we are hopefully going to get out of this is a reconciliation of the faiths from monotheistic descendants of Abraham. I am not happy with starting a war to get to that point, but my faith says God has a hand in all of this. I cannot remember Bush characterizing the groups we are out to stop as anything other than murderers and thugs who HIJACKED peaceful Islam for their own twisted Jihad against the west.

TammySuzanne

11/10/2004 01:50:03 PM

Let's not forget the many times in past history when political and economic problems paved the way to tyranny...take Adolf Hitler for instance, he was a christian, catholic, Republican, of the right wing who deceived many other christians into following his deceptive paths of a new order that was very far from right. The Puritans...killed in the name of Jesus innocent victims because they did not live up to their beliefs and standards. The seperation of church and government came from our more peaceful christians, the Quakers. Who are we to speak for God...all is always going according to His will...he is the creator of all...good and evil...and uses it for His will and purposes. All any of us can do is pray and put your trusts in the Lord to keep you safe.

Pelzer5

11/10/2004 01:46:31 PM

Romans This educational concept of no child left behind is a pawn from exhisting programs and Bush never funded it and now the teachers are left with even more responsabitity for the same terrible pay. This is called prep schools and teach to the test. I did some of my observation in Kansas City, Missouri and was at a prep school that the students were only required to achieve to the test. When I asked why the student that I was shadowing for the day had not done his homework the student next to me said it didn't matter as long as he passed the test at the end of the quarter. This is no way to educate the children of our society. They were also allowed calculators and such, so the concept of long term memmory retention is non-exhistent everything is short term and reviewed so the children can pass the tests and the teachers can say they did their jobs. Sad!

lilady318

11/10/2004 01:42:28 PM

Seems I upset some with my emotional rantings,so to speak.Romans 12 ...I'd like to know how you base your case.And of course I am emotional...I'm an American.I see this country going down,daily I listen about the lives lost in Iraq ..for what?Democracy?I thought we were hunting weapons of mass destruction?Which is it?How many soldiers and American lives will be destroyeed before Bush leaves!

lilady318

11/10/2004 01:39:09 PM

Did you know America has a drop out rate of 30%.Although Washinton will tell you different.I'm from Long Island NY where a superitedent gets paid like an average CEO.Perks included.Having 2 kids in the system I can tell you teachers should teach if they want raises.These kids can't pass tests for a reason,perhaps it's in the teaching.Or maybe because we keep giving money and districts are taking money for personal gain.Whatever happened to people who taught because they loved to teach?It never used to be aboput money,but enriching young minds

jacknky

11/10/2004 12:57:40 PM

Romans, The traits you describe are all part of the human condition and are not unique to liberals or conservatives. You just see the over emotionalism of liberals more clearly than that of conservatives. I assure you that the "illogic" you describe is readily available in conservatives as well. We're as "logical" as you. We just operate with different assumptions. Peace...

Michael_Thoma

11/10/2004 12:24:29 PM

God pushed the election to Bush Not unless God's name is Karl Rove or Jeb.

sagenav

11/10/2004 11:21:45 AM

Romans: Bush did of course did not create many of the problems that the education system has at this time, however his short sighted and unimaginative attempts at reform are doing more damage than good. Especially when he impliments regulations and then does not ear mark the promised money to pay for them. I understand that conservatives tend to see things in black and white terms, but kids do not learn this way. Reform to education is going to take a much more complex approach. The charter system is a good beginning as long as it does not become exclusive. You are right, throwing money at a problem does not solve the problem. However, most public school are under funded for the service they are expected to provide. I'm talking out-dated books, out dated computers and software, under payed teachers and over sized class rooms. In my area, every school that opens, at any grade level, is over capacity within a few months. They are constantly begging for volunteers and donations.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/10/2004 11:10:40 AM

Romans 12, Notwithstanding my anger toward Bush, I flatter myself to think that I deal in facts and evidence, not hyperemotionalism. The factual case against him is quite damning enough without portraying him in terms of apocalyptic evil. It is true that liberals often dogmatically suggest government-run programs to solve social problems (although sometimes that IS the answer). Conversely, conservatives often dogmatically reject the idea of government-run programs. The issue is not whether government-run programs are good or bad; the issue is that dogmatism does not allow us to make rational choices.

Romans_12

11/10/2004 10:14:35 AM

The 'Progressive Philosophy' was the brainchild of John Dewey. As the liberals began to institute, 40 years ago, 'progressive educational philosophy' into the American school system, it soon evidenced its primary flaws: the fundamental denial of absolutes, objective standards, a priori knowledge, and eternal truths. As is so often the case the President (any President, for that matter) gets saddled with, and blamed for, events and inherited dilemmas. Bush is most certainly not to blame for the current state of education and simply realizes that a long held Democrat philosophy -simply infuse more money – is a losing venture. There are so many other errant statements in these anti-Bush posts, that anyone with a reasonable and objective mindset, could dismantle them one by one. It is sad that so many people rely on emotion to dictate their logic. It is apparent, from many posts in here, that critical thinking has been replaced by emotional rants.

SWDorrance

11/10/2004 09:43:40 AM

What if God's real purpose here is to unite the 3 branches of the tree of Abraham. By that I mean create a peace between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Go ahead and pray for the man, pray that his heart will be changed, pray that God will turn any evil done to his purpose. The entire american election process would be much better served if candidates would quit labeling each other, and then inform the American public that they would use these tools in this order to advance the interests of this country. e.g. Diplomacy, Economic Sanction, Coalitions of interested parties, then military strikes as a last resort. If another canadidate would rule out all but the military strike let them say so. What we fight over in politics is more about the tools the administration uses and less about the actual goals for the administration.

sagenav

11/10/2004 08:56:26 AM

By the way, Bush did "screw the schools" by essentially creating an unfunded mandate. And, schools are having to cut programs so that kids can prepare for tests.

sagenav

11/10/2004 08:52:38 AM

kizmet68: Maybe that's the difference, there are many of us who don't think that Bush is worried about anything but his own personal agenda and bottom line. He created a war in Iraq so that he could create a mandate, and now that he has actually won an election by the smallest of margins he believes that he has political capital to spend. This is frightening to many of us.

bunsinspace

11/10/2004 06:21:48 AM

BS"D Colson - moral high ground? NOT! Land - Obviously the blessing is on him and the curse is on the majority of the working class. Weyrich - one more chance for G-d to prove that He abides by Weyrich's standards. Sheehan - another chance to punish all nations who don't think like us in the name of G-d. Focus On the Family- everyone EXCEPT the mother of course. And if your not a Christian right-winger, your marriage is invalid. Hankins - a hard truth but nobody's listening. McManus - sounds like he also embarassed his congregation.

bunsinspace

11/10/2004 06:20:11 AM

BS"D Colson - one to talk. Right. Land - must have a job and must be financially secure. Must alos be ignoring the majority of American citizens. Obviously the blessing is on him and the curse is on the majority of the working class. Weyrich - one more chance for G-d to prove that He abides by Weyrich's standards. Sheehan - another chance to punish all nations who don't think like us in the name of G-d. How dare they even exist! Focus On the Family- everyone EXCEPT the mother of course. And if your not a Christian right-winger, your marriage is invalid. Hankins - a hard truth but nobody's listening. McManus - sounds like he also embarassed his congregation.

lilady318

11/10/2004 06:18:56 AM

To have elected an official who doesn't have the best intrest in the American people in God name is wrong.It shows how decieving Bush really is.Did anyone notice he said he will cut the deficit in half in 5 years?HE WILL BE GONE IN 5 YEARS!And what about his comment in August(30) about NOT being able to win the war on terror.Bush has so many people fearing and he played on that.Well I am one American who is far more afraid that he has been re-elected!In 4 years he did some serious damage to the US.In another 4 years I think the damage will be so severe it'll take a miracle to get it straight.

lilady318

11/10/2004 06:13:17 AM

I agree with Palerider.He has done alot of fact checking it seems.I am from NY and some polls were broken to the point only rebublican votes could be registered.And Kerry still won here.To say Bush being elected is Gods will is totally absured.God is a loving and peaceful God.Has anyone ever thought perhaps he created gays and abortion to see how we would judge.We are all sinner,what makes there sin worse than ours??

palerider

11/10/2004 12:04:58 AM

Other questionable voting: Santiago Juarez, of the "Faithful Citizens' Program" in New Mexico, stated that voters were turned away from some polling stations. In Chaves County, New Mexico, which has an enormous Hispanic, African American and Native American population (who traditionally vote Democrat), Bush won by 68% to 31%. In a county in North Carolina, 4,500 votes went missing due to software problems - the computer had run out of memory. In Florida, 13 counties reported more votes than voters, these accounting for 39.4% of the vote. In Florida, electronic scan machines registered a gain of 128.45% for Bush and a decrease of 21% for Kerry, whereas in some places a gain of 400% was recorded for the Republicans and in Liberty County, 700%.

palerider

11/10/2004 12:00:13 AM

Other Ohio examples: At the Gahana 1 Precinct, Bush - 6,253 votes, Kerry - 1,916 votes, others, 23, totaling 8,192 votes. However, only 4,346 people voted. At another Gahana Precinct, 4,258 votes - Bush, 260 Kerry, but only 638 people were registered as having voted. 14.6% of votes cast were by e-voting machines, susceptible to hacking and fraudulent manipulation, and leaving no paper trail. Hernando County recorded 0 votes. Ohio bought e-voting machines from the Diebold Corporation, whose CEO Wally O'Dell is a Bush fundraiser. Fewer machines were placed in Democrat areas in many Precincts, causing long lines to form and people to turn away. Ken Blackwell tried to force through legislation requiring that registration applications not posted on the correct weight paper be discounted, then sought to suppress provisional ballots. Blackwell held back the distribution of 2000 machines.

palerider

11/09/2004 11:49:20 PM

Ohio examples of questionable voting counts: In Ohio CNN exit polls among women gave Kerry the vote by 53 to 47% and among men by 51 to 49%. The question asked was "Who did you vote for?" Republican watchdogs manned the doors and challenged those who might be ineligible to vote - mostly African Americans and Hispanics (likely Democrats). The idea is to block the line, forcing people to lose patience and go away. African Americans and Hispanics were often given provisional ballots, rather than the type of vote that will be counted. It is the decision of the Secretary of State of the State concerned to decide whether to count them or not. Bush won Ohio by 136,483 votes. There were between 175,000 and 250,000 uncounted votes. At the Glenwood Elementary station in Toledo, over 200 people left the station because it opened late and then ran out of pencils - this being in a primarily Democratic district.

palerider

11/09/2004 11:26:29 PM

Are we really sure it was God's will for Bush to win? If yes, then was it God who may have prevented votes from being counted so that Bush could win? The appearance of Osama bin Laden bang on cue was suspicious, to say the least. There is also increasing evidence pointing toward election fraud on November 2nd. Exit polls in sensitive districts just don't add up to the official figures. Ethnic minorities who might have voted Democrat were excluded in many instances from the count. Other votes weren’t counted. Another stolen election?

thoughtful_dad

11/09/2004 09:42:46 PM

There's more than a little irony in the current flag-waving/bible-thumping frenzy. The palms people waved over Jesus on "Palm Sunday" were a national symbol of independence, as they shouted "hosanna" i.e. "save us" (from Rome). Afterward, Jesus wept over the city - "If only you had known the way that leads to peace! But no, it is hidden from your sight." This sermon quote sums it up nicely (by Paul Harris, Trinity Lutheran Church in Austin TX)... "So their waving palms is like us waving flags. It's a symbol of faith in their country. It's a symbol that they believe Jesus is the right and proper ruler of their country. You see this sort of faith regularly on TV. Whenever the President's motorcade moves through the streets, you'll see people lining the route waving flags. Put palm branches in their hands and President Bush on a donkey, and you see what went on Palm Sunday. In both cases, the crowds mean the same thing." http://www.trinityaustin.com/sermons/2002/20020324.html Hmm...

MMarcoe

11/09/2004 09:13:33 PM

Saying that God wanted Bush to win is like bin Laden saying God wanted a bunch of Arabs to blow up the World Trade Center. If I remember correctly, it was also God who wanted white Christians to destroy native cultures and plunder their resources, too. Ah, to be favored by God! Since God propelled Bush to the White House again, He must be in favor of corporate welfare, environmental destruction, the prohibiting of THC for valid medicinal purposes, the invading of a foreign nation to "free its people from tyranny" (does this mean we're going to invade Tibet, Sudan, Cuba, Burma, Saudi Arabia, the West Bank and North Korea next?), and the rape of society by rampant consumerism. Now I know why fundies prefer Bush so much. He makes them feel better about their own ungodliness.

easyeverett

11/09/2004 09:11:07 PM

If there is a "God" and His "divine will" won the election for George, then we can be certain that God does indeed have a wonderful sense of the absurd. He also can share the responsibility, with George, for the lives lost in a futile war of preemption. The rhetoric being used by the christian right since the election differs little from that of the present day Muslim fundamentalists or the Jew/Muslim hating crusaders unleashed by Pope Urban in 1095. The mythology of God, any God, has far too often been the historical foundation for intolerance, aggressive wars, bigotry, and the death of countless innocents. Today's righteous hypocrites have joined, with glee, the inquisitor's club headed by the likes of Torquemada, Jim Jones, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, Charles Colson and the many other selfrighteous religionists history has provided. Fortunately, the corrective pendulam continues it's endless arc and is certain to succumb to probability and correct this temporary error of Godly proportions.

Bravo88

11/09/2004 06:30:56 PM

I do know that GOD does want the poor to be fed and clothed, the criminals to receive justice and mercy, and that all "brothers and sisters" live in peace with one another. How much of the election was part of GOD's will for America? More important is whether those elected will do right and speak the truth and help those whom are unable to help themselves. I think it very important that America and her leaders examine themselves and see whether or not, they truly follow GOD's will or if they've gone astray. Perhaps millions of nonAmericans would say that America has gone astray, long gone astray from GOD?

Bravo88

11/09/2004 06:24:38 PM

My opinion of Bush and of Kerry has been totally informed by the opinions of others and of the press and what little I have witnessed. How much have I heard and seen that are lies? How much truth has been told about either candidate? We clearly need to be careful in our decisions and our judgements (make no mistake we all judge, whether we realize it or not). I suggest that Bush and his teammates tread carefully when stating that something is "the will of GOD".

Bravo88

11/09/2004 06:21:01 PM

I will say this, as a Christian who belongs to an evangelical church, that I think it dangerous to say that GOD favoured Bush or didn't favour Kerry. We do not know GOD's mind even after studying the scriptures. The scribes who studied the scriptures failed to see that Jesus was the one who was Messiah. More important than who won the election is whether America will continue to accept lying in its politicians, people living on its streets, the poor being ignored by society and many churches.

ChicagoHeathen

11/09/2004 06:16:50 PM

Keyes was a uniter... he united the vote... against him. So... that statement is true... from a certain point of view. By the way, i know a fair number of people who voted for him "for laughs" or as a "sympathy vote". So not all the people that voted for him voted for him. In frith, CH

zerotheocracy

11/09/2004 05:56:19 PM

jontemplar - Haha, you call Keyes a "uniter?" He cannot even unite the Illinois GOP. He got curbstomped at the polls. If you right wingers think you can legislate your prudery down our throat, guess what? You won't. Want to ban gay marriage? Guess what? Just as many gay people will be shacking together. Think you can outlaw sodomy? Guess what? We'll still be having good non-penis/vagina sex out here. Want to ban abortion? Guess what? Women will still be having abortions. This is why all the Christian rightwingers are secretly terrorists. They know that the laws they want, even if passed, won't do diddly squat. They can only get their way through killing us all. But guess what? Nobody is fooled anymore into thinking that you are peaceful. We know you are a violent, hateful people. And so if we find ourselves faced with a situation where it is our lives and our dreams versus your lives and your nightmare, we will not hesitate to defend ourselves with maximum possible force.

jontemplar

11/09/2004 05:32:53 PM

You need to be a little more self-serving and illogical to understand it. Providence = manifest destiny = kill anyone who stands in the way of what I want, give credit to God for allowing it and feel good about doing. I am astonished that none of the people quoted in the article have paid much attention to the last four years. If anything, it shows God has walked away from this country and doesn't intend to return. I thought Alan Keyes was a uniter not a divider. It is interesting to me that so many of these right-wingers who believe homosexuality is a choice have so many children who "choose it". If their children are "choosing it" then why would you vote for them to influence your life or your children's by putting them in office?

server6

11/09/2004 05:23:21 PM

As an observer from outside of the USA I must state that I find this "God on our side: rhetoric a bit preturbing . I can not see God focusing on 1 nation over another , Biblical examples not with standing. I also find it even odder that some want to make 1 parety the "party of Go" vs everyone esle. sounds like a page from the Taliban handbook. God places all authority good bad and indiferent see Romans 12 .

jolierenee

11/09/2004 04:22:02 PM

Let the evangelicals say what they want about the election results. They can blame it on the Jolly Green Giant for all I care. GWB will get his four more years, during which he won't do a thing to help any of their causes, because his main concern is funneling money upwards. If I weren't so angry, I would almost feel sorry for them, being so blinded by their faith, that they would vote in favor of losing their own civil liberties, subsidizing the loss of their own jobs, and jamming their grandchildren under a mountain of debt before they are even born.

ChicagoHeathen

11/09/2004 03:33:50 PM

Coming from Illinois, Thic, I'd say Keyes lost so badly because he is... um... an idiot. To you, cullins, I can only say this: If you have nothing to lose by believing in Christianity, fine. I'm personally not interested in why you choose to believe in it. Your right to believe in Christianity, though, stops at forcing me to pander to it. I have no proof your Jesus rose from the dead. So, IMHO, nah, screw it, in my not-so-humble-opinion, Jesus was a cool guy with some good ideas who died. Note the word OPINION here. And you think other people in other religions don't have anything to gain and little to lose by keeping to their religions? Please. Try not to insult the intelligence of a ground squirrel. I have everything to lose by believing in Christianity, and nothing to gain. You keep your Christ, I'll keep Odin and Thor, and we'll both keep them all out of our legislation. Got it? Good.

gwisk

11/09/2004 03:27:29 PM

I believe that Christianity has grossly misinterpreted the Bible. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is very real, and that by Christ laying His life down, He did truly become "the Lamb of God, which takes away the sins OF THE WORLD." Christians should re-examine what they've been force-fed by their clergy. It's not a matter of whether or not you're a Christian as much as it is a matter if you believe in God enough that you seek God, no matter what side of the mountain that you're looking at. In II Corinthians, Paul wrote that "God was in Christ, reconciling THE WORLD unto Himself." Christianity has done nothing but cause divisions (Baptist, Methodist, Orthodox Catholic, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Mennonite, etc.), and divisions are not of God.

THICH72

11/09/2004 03:19:58 PM

Bull, Bull, Bull, Bull. To believe that the election of Dubya was an act of God is not only madness, is not only blasphemous, it is downright dangerous. If God intervened in our election, why did Alan Keyes, God's right hand man (according the honorable Mr. Keyes) lose so badly? It's an absurd question, of course, because God (in the form that evangelical "Christians" choose to put Him in) cannot and should not be inserted into the broad discussion of this election. Such baloney should be ignored by anyone with a functioning brain.

Nezalhualixtlan

11/09/2004 03:17:09 PM

Oh, and I'd just like to point out, the US is NOT a "Christian Country", even if the majority of its citizen are. The founders of the nation were explicit in putting in writing that it was not - Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..." This was signed by John Adams. I do not see how it gets any clearer.

manypaths

11/09/2004 03:10:48 PM

If God did interveane, it was to punish the murderer. If heaven is full of evangelicals and people like Bush, you can count me out. Fortunately, it is not. It is full of black, brown and white people that have muych more moderate views of the world that we live in. Hell is a place that is full of single minded folks. Date an Evangelical's daughter. Show her a GREAT time.

calius

11/09/2004 03:06:43 PM

“I’ve said on numerous occasions, that if God would allow his chosen people to be taken off into captivity, don’t think he won’t judge the United States.” >> that is to me a very interesting part of the article indeed As for you Nezalhualixtlan, what you say with god punishing us with Bush, it is very likely the same kind of speech i find interesting

devilsadvocate666

11/09/2004 03:00:10 PM

How long till the non-Christian infidel witch hunts? How is this a "Christian Country"? Sounds like the Paulinian fundies are at it again....

Nezalhualixtlan

11/09/2004 02:58:08 PM

From the end of the article: “When God’s people were idolatrous and rebellious he sent justice--sometimes evil kings and sometimes foreign conquerors,” inquisitive1 wrote: "Seriously--if the God I worship intentionally allowed someone like George W. to be placed in the White House, maybe I need to convert to a different religion." Anyone have the thought that maybe if there is this god figure influencing things, he's actually punishing us with GWB? Just a thought.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/09/2004 02:53:23 PM

Inquisitive1, I loved your posting! Aspirin for all of us, and double doses for God!

Heretic_for_Christ

11/09/2004 02:51:35 PM

Calius, Thanks for posting your views, and do not apologize for the fact that English is not your first language. What you said was clear enough and worth hearing.

inquisitive1

11/09/2004 02:50:42 PM

Is this for real? People actually think God "intervened" and got Dubya elected?! How ridiculous. God doesn't decide elections--we all know he only uses his super powers to influence the outcome of sporting events. (That's why so many athletes make the sign of the cross when they score.) Seriously--if the God I worship intentionally allowed someone like George W. to be placed in the White House, maybe I need to convert to a different religion. I can't believe the utter pomposity of people who would believe something so absurd. God is probably taking massive doses of aspirin for the headache this whole situation has caused him.

Nezalhualixtlan

11/09/2004 02:49:32 PM

Cullins, I'd also like to point out that simply being a Christian does not leave you everything to gain and nothing to lose, because 1) There are different brands of it, 2) Multiple of these different brands claim to be the one and only true religion and that if you don't follow it you'll end up paying for it in the afterlife. And then there's also the matter of other religions. Take Islam for instance, if one of their brands of religion are right, you screwed up following Christianity. Or Buddhism, if that's right, then while you were busy following Christian dogma, you probably should have been out seeking enlightenment. There are a lot of things to lose no matter what you pick to follow, or whether you pick to follow anything. Pascal's little wager is so flawed it's a wonder anyone would choose to use it as an example anymore.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/09/2004 02:39:09 PM

Cullins, Your argument about being a Christian on grounds of everything to gain and nothing to lose goes back centuries, to when proselytic Christians were busily rounding up large numbers of new recruits. But here's the problem with that reasoning: a person either does or does not sincerely believe that Jesus was the divine and uniquely begotten son of God; if you proclaim such faith out fear of hell IN CASE it's true, then the proclamation is false. My own take is that the question is utterly irrelevant. If Jesus' teachings are true, then they are true regardless of who and what he was. So I pay attention to what he said, whereas most of the churchgoing Christians I have known pay more attention to a set of doctrines about who he was.

calius

11/09/2004 02:37:36 PM

Being an europen, french, i fill ashamed and scared for what i see beyong the ocean, ashamed because these poeple, extremists, are our brothers, they come from Europe diaspora at the very beginning of this history of this very young country that is America ( occidentally talking ) , i feel ashamed that my brothers became this way, ok Europe wasn't the best of the places during middle ages, but this is an other story really, and scared to have to face that in my own country which i consider with europe the very last shelter of democray and civil rights. I have a lot more to say but i wouldnt want to annoy you all, so i shut up now Blessings & Light ( forgive my english in advance )

calius

11/09/2004 02:37:15 PM

Dear all, Before starting my little speech i would like to precise that i do respect all the religions of the world, including christianty, even though for too many years, hands of christians have been killing in the name of god, have been killing my sister / brother witches, or killing their own brothers in the name of the lord. This is said. Now like said smeone here, religion and politics working together is the worst thing ever, it is really freaking me out to imagine that this Christian democracy will look like very soon like an other Afghanistan, but will be soldiers when we will need em, they will be in the "evil" ( sorry for the association it is not meant ) camp, and they probably allready are.

cullins

11/09/2004 02:17:34 PM

To ChicagoHeathen, Jesus is not dead. He is alive and someday you will see him face to face. He loves you and will gladly foregive you. I hope and pray you do this before you draw your last breathe here on earth. Also, this place does belong to God, we are only using it temperarily. A lifetime here is but a wisp compared to eternity in the after life. One thought to ponder is: What if Christanity is real? being a christian I have everything to gain, eternal paradise in heaven, also a clean and happy lifestyle while here on earth, If christianity is not real then I have lost nothing. You decide, which is the more logical choice. God Bless you

Heretic_for_Christ

11/09/2004 02:02:07 PM

Barblee, Believe it or not, lots of people who aren't Bible-thumpers wish that there were fewer abortions and think that much of what is on TV is offensive and insipid. You have no monopoly on such attitudes. What you do have a monopoly on is the conviction that Karl Dubya Rovebush is some kind of paragon of morality just because he knows how to make a big public show of his religiosity.

dangerouschristian

11/09/2004 01:59:59 PM

I hate to break this to my conservative brethren, but God DID NOT intervene on George Bush's behalf and had him re-elected. Nor did God let him be re-elected in order to stop America's "slide into evil." The re-election victory was nothing more than a slick marketing ploy by scaredy-cat evangelicals who want to turn the clock back to a "Christian" America. These people forget to realize that when America was "Christian" (before 1962-when prayer was kicked out of schools), that we had slavery, the extermination of indigenous peoples, Jim Crow, degredation of women, use of a-bombs on Japan, turning a blind eye to the the plight of Jews during the Holocaust, fomenting CIA-backed overthrows of self-governing foreign governments...need I say more. I think the evangelicals are sliding America in more evil than ever before. And to thnk they say they're "Followers of Jesus"... Pray, America...

ChicagoHeathen

11/09/2004 01:49:47 PM

This is our country. Not one god's, and not Jesus'. If someone is going to "take care of" the country, it had better be a human, and not some 2000-year-old dead dude or his father. Sorry, but there are MORE than Christians in this country, and it's ours just as much as yours. How would you like to have legislation based on the Eddas forced down your throat? Hey, better be a good host, or there will be severe consequences. Ever broken an oath? Big time issue there. What, it's not Constitutional to legislate religion? THEN STOP SHOVING F-ING CHRISTIANITY DOWN THE REST OF OUR THROATS. THIS ISN'T ROCKET SCIENCE, PEOPLE!!! Rant over. Thank you.

nachocheese

11/09/2004 01:49:16 PM

If God did intervene in the election of GWB, that's proof that God is punishing the US by sending a plague of ignoramuses to govern us.

rbethell

11/09/2004 01:48:39 PM

God, not Goid. Sorry Lord, not intentional. :-)

rbethell

11/09/2004 01:47:48 PM

barblee: we've seen nothing of the sort, other than in the sense that Goid gives us the free will to do as we will. Conflating our leadership preferences with God's will is idolatry.

barblee

11/09/2004 01:39:18 PM

The call went out to Christians all over this nation to pray and get to the polls. You have seen God's hand directly demonstrated in this election.

cullins

11/09/2004 01:37:41 PM

Bernadette65 was correct in saying God did not elect Bush. Bush was elected by americans who believed that George Bush and the republican party represented the moral values that more closely aligned with thier beliefs, as opposed to the more liberal Democratic party. These people were not afraid but standing up for thier beliefs. Also Bernadette65, you are correct in that if we were all more like Jesus we wouldn't have these discussions. Abortions, gay marriages, wars, etc... would not be happening. God Bless you.

barblee

11/09/2004 01:36:27 PM

Christians in this country have put Bush back in the White House with the fervent prayer that America can return to the once God fearing she once was. This country has fallen into sin greatly since I was a kid in the 40's. I have seen it happen and it is a very distressing process to see happen. Sin is rampant in this country, in the movies, in T.V., in magazines, in the way we dress and what comes out of our mouths. If we don't turn to God to help this country this country is going to know God's judgement on it. I believe this with all my heart and am elated that those who love God and His way of life have returned a Christian and moral values to the oval office.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/09/2004 01:28:18 PM

Mistakendreamer, Since antichrist just refers to people who reject the divinity of Jesus (1 John, 2 John), Bush is not antichrist. Satan in Revelation is often referred to as The Antichrist, but that term does not appear in Revelation. Also, Satan is said to have deceived the whole world, whereas Bush has just deceived half the American people, or about 10% of the world's population. So at most, he is one-tenth Satan... :-)

Diocletian

11/09/2004 01:25:26 PM

paul bello is guily of SLANDER. Hillary Clinton is NOT a "communist". It's long past time that word was retired, and not used as a catchall term to smear anybody you don't like. And I'm sick of the right-wing lie that Bill Clinton weakened our national defense. As Dick Cheney said, "A President goes to war with a military built by his predecessor", and Clinton's Army did a very effective job taking Iraq. (While the neocons totally blew the post-invasion period). Meanwhile, both Clinton and Richard Clarke said that Bush seemed uninterested in the threat of Al Qaeda; and when he has a Briefing on his desk in August 2001 saying that Al Qaeda planned to hijack planes, he did aboslutely nothing! He could have made airport security better then, but he waited for 9/11.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/09/2004 01:23:15 PM

Paul.Bello, So you voted for Bush for the sake of America's security. That is a perfectly valid basis for voting, but I think we should all remember the position taken on this issue by Diplomats and Military Commanders for Change. This ad hoc, nonpartisan coalition comprised 27 career diplomats, intelligence experts, and military leaders, many of whom worked for the elder Bush and Ronald Reagan. Months before the election, they called for the defeat of Bush, exactly because his recklessness in abandoning the war on terrorism to indulge his obsession with Iraq, had grievously threatened America's security. These are career professionals, not liberals, not Kerry partisans, and they were unequivocal in their condemnation of Bush's policies on exactly the issue on which you voted for him.

mistakendreamer

11/09/2004 01:16:43 PM

Oh please. What the biggest bunch of bull I've heard in my life. If Bush has anything to do with the Bible and God, he's the anti-Christ. This is just ridiculous.

paul.bello

11/09/2004 01:12:23 PM

Seems like there aren't many GWB fans out there. More selective interpretation, as far as I can see. The God of the New and Old Testaments are logically equivalent, as far as any sane theologian would admit. Given the fact that the Jews went on a murderous rampage through the mideast to establish the Kingdom of Israel, I can't make analogies between what's happening in Iraq, and evil works by an evil administration. If you want to talk about lying, cheating, and stealing, take a good hard look at the United Nations. I refuse to leave my nation's security to Kofi Annan. My vote wasn't for Bush, per se, it was against France, Germany, Syria, and the host of other nations who wish to see the United States weakened. It was an endorsement for a national security policy that was proactive instead of reactive. Something that Bill Clinton, and his communist wife almost destroyed.

bernadette65

11/09/2004 01:00:40 PM

God did not elect BUSH, some very afraid people who hide behind the good book elected him. We are a nation divided. What a shame. If all of us lived more like Jesus, this would not even be an issue. LOVE ONE ANOTHER is the answer. GOD wants us to love one another... let's get it right people. "...I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but put my trust in Jesus name..." Everything else, this war, death, destruction all in the name of freedom, will be taken care of by HIM.

irony_optional

11/09/2004 12:59:57 PM

I wonder how God intervened. Did he change votes? Erase ballots? Exert mind control over the voters? Really, I think we should investigate God for vote tampering!

jacknky

11/09/2004 12:55:54 PM

"God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie." (II Thess. 2:11)

paul.bello

11/09/2004 12:53:24 PM

Oh no. I've finally heard it all. God intervenes in a political election. Apparently the Bible bumpers are up to the usual hijinx. The biggest problem I have with evangelicals is their selective interpretationism. The same people who claim to beleive that Jesus turned water into wine at Cana can't buy that bread and water can be transformed into body and blood. It's silliness. Same with the election issue. FREE WILL people. If you believe in literal interpretation, how can you explain the descent of man without FREE WILL. Come on. Time to quit abusing the Word of God. And they call the Catholics deluded... St. Thomas Aquinas is probably reading all of this from the heavens and cracking up laughing. Cheers, Paul

starchildtj

11/09/2004 12:39:50 PM

I never try to convert anyone,I no longer feel the need.Each person is on their own path to learning and growing and fulfilling their lifes purpose. When one has a close connection to the Divine Spirit,you no longer seek the vengeful,angry God that needs to be placated and apeased. One sees that God is the source of all Love,truth and wisdom. After spending several black days concerned over the election and the way that people in our nation have sought to turn their own religious fears and fallacies into a political agenda.I have be greatly heartened to see the responses on this list.I salute the Divine within you all.God always turn the bad to Good and in this case I see and hope that Good shall come of evil,in the bringing people out of their religious complacency into a comfirming of the their own beliefs and a coming together of the people who charish love,peace,charity,the true teachings of Jesus.Blessings

strefanash

11/09/2004 12:02:33 PM

this is an example of how utterly deluded and apostate the evangelicals of the US are. the thing is this has happene before. the christians also went into orgies of delight when Constantine became Emperor in about 306 AD, and for the same reasons Evil can be prevented by political action (by Law)? That is what they are thinking in this, and in thinking this way they are showing their total friendship with the principles of the world, and as such they are rushing to God's judgement, for they are backslidden Whe was the last time american evangelicals actually read and understood their bibles? For they are not bible believing, rather bible abusing, and for blaspheming the holy name of God in such a way ( ie misusing it) they will be held accountable.

Diocletian

11/09/2004 11:11:37 AM

If God had anything to do with this election, then all I have to say to him is, "BUTT OUT! This is OUR world, and we supposedly have Free Will. Why don't you go to Hell?"

ChicagoHeathen

11/09/2004 11:06:54 AM

If people are sheep, then please let me be a border collie to bite them in the butts.

Nezalhualixtlan

11/09/2004 10:49:49 AM

Kymus wrote: "People are sheep.." And so many of them think they have a Sheppard herding them, failing to see the wolves he keeps at his side, and the thin disguise he himself wears.

SpiritualLiberal6

11/09/2004 10:48:56 AM

I'm a Liberal Spiritualist and initially brought up in Southern Baptist household. What you preach in this sight about God choosing Bush is absolutely beyond me. God gave us the ability to choose our own destiny, and if you are truly in tune with the Earth and God, you will make the right decision. Bush is manipulative, deceptive and THE evil doer (in the disguise of a good ol' boy). Bush has used his 'religion' to manipulate the masses. So many have forgetten all the attrocities he has brought to our country. He's sent 100,000+ Irague - innocent men, women and children to thier death. He's plagued our country with total lack of any envoromental responsibility and supposedly all in the name of God. The the true creator would never be okay with such random acts of irresponsibility. Re-familiarize yourself with 'love thy neightbor as thyself'. I pray that all of you will open your eyes to the truth before you are no longer able to.

Kymus

11/09/2004 10:39:35 AM

let me get this straight, in comparrison to the Clinton administration (and keep in mind I am not Clinton supporter), we've had: More debt More Abortions More Soldiers killed More War Exactly HOW is this according to God? People are sheep..

sagenav

11/09/2004 10:32:47 AM

Isn't it ironic that God would give humanity "free will" but then intervene to impose rulers on us? Just one more of the many contradictions that the Christian fundamentalists live under. These people have now become more dangerous than even Al-Queda, because they now have control of the most powerful country in the world.

Windsinger

11/09/2004 10:32:39 AM

Henry the VIII and other tyrrant kings all said god put them in power, too.

Nezalhualixtlan

11/09/2004 10:32:05 AM

The evangelicals that think like this, and the fact that they got their way with our government at present makes me feel very alienated from our country. But we have suffered through bad times before, and luckily enough the US is structured in such a way as to be able to recover from mistakes. I'd expect if they end up trying to ram their theology down the rest of our collective throats, you'll see a surge in liberal protest rising up against these people who claim Divine intervention; protest against those who will attempt to take away the rights of other citizens and force their theological concepts on those who do not share them.

cullins

11/09/2004 10:17:39 AM

Jesus preached repentance more than anything else. He knew that our wickedness would destroy us and he loved us. That is why he preached this. It is no secret that the election was swayed by peoples that profess to know the Lord. A relationship with Jesus Christ will lead to high moral standards as well as loving others as well as ourselves. This great country has been blessed not because of the many freedoms we have but because the the founding fathers of this country honored the almighty God. It would be very arrogant and foolish for us to think that we created this country on our own. Our only hope is through Jesus Christ and salvation thru him. When we accept him he becomes our advocate with the Father and also guides our daily lives and helps us to make the correct decisions. In closing; Despite what the media has portrayed, this is still by far the greatest country on earth and the USA does more for it's neighbors and it's own under previlaged that any other nation. May God Bless America.

Windsinger

11/09/2004 10:00:01 AM

disgusting.

LivingEZ123

11/09/2004 09:59:02 AM

A social liberal I believe in separation of Church and State. I respect people with differnt beliefs. My love of social justice and are based in religion. I don’t wear it on my sleeve. My Bible says human reason is a gift from God. God may be the ultimate source of law, but it is now we humans that must make the decisions. I am a pragmatist I deal with deeds and social justice not abstract mysticim. All human concepts of God are only models of something we can not grasp. This is a religious belief. Faith communities should rely more on inner discipline to enforce their standards of holiness and not rely on the civil law. States determine civil rights. Churches determine what is "holy". There is room to disagree under the first amendment.

JohnQ

11/09/2004 09:52:06 AM

As a Christian, I am not sure what God all these "Christians" listed in the article are worshiping. Perhaps Yahweh the war God of the Old Testament. Our Lord Jesus Christ taught compassion. The Bible is suppose to be a guideline...a map....not, a weapon! Oh Lord Jesus, please save us from your followers! Peace!

nightngle

11/09/2004 09:35:36 AM

To the religious folks who believe that God is on W's side - please, do a little homework and list the countries for yourself who have invaded other countries. Then ask yourself if you like the company we are in.

ChicagoHeathen

11/09/2004 09:29:55 AM

So I guess if the Biblegod intervened, all us non-Christians are SOL? We should what, convert or leave? Yeah, right. If the evangelicals who believe this is their god's will think that the rest of us are just going to roll over and die, or roll over and give up our rights, they've got an unpleasant shock waiting for them. Sure, a lot of people have gone under the impression their rights won't be taken away, but don't think that they'll just sit there once it really starts to happen. If any god was involved in the results of the election, I would be far more inclined to think it was not Yahweh, but Loki. This seems much more his style.

gwisk

11/09/2004 09:26:40 AM

How true-to-form is modern day Christianity? Consider that less than 100 years after Christ's ascension to heaven after His death and resurrection, Christ appeared to the Apostle John in a vision and had him write 7 letters to 7 early churches, scolding some of them for their straying from the truth. If Christianity had strayed that far in less than 100 years, multiply that by 20 to see how far off the "strait and narrow path" Christianity is at nowadays. Greedy, deceitful, vain, and incompassionate.

devilsadvocate666

11/09/2004 09:25:11 AM

I would like to ask a question, how would these Evangelical Fundamentalists extremeists feel if this country were to have a Satanist for president, who changes the laws of this country to reflect the beliefs found in the Satanic Bible? Or, how would they like a president who changes the laws to become align with Hindu fundamentalism? (I am sure everyone knows their answer...) Point is, if they dread the notion of such events happening, then why don't they see where we, the more secular folk come from? Since when do they have the right to force their Paulinian views on me?

devilsadvocate666

11/09/2004 09:21:14 AM

Appearently, the whole clause called "the Establishment Clause" has never occured to Bush's supporters who wish for a theocratic state, and consider this nation to be a "Christian Nation". They just sound like they are more of followers of Paul, rather than Jesus.

ioan

11/09/2004 08:55:06 AM

Evangelicals are clearly not christians. They don't have a clue about the basic precepts of christanity. They rely on sections of the bible, while ignoring other parts.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/09/2004 08:52:46 AM

It is reassuring to read through 3 straight pages of postings that reject the inane notion that Bush was "God's candidate." Apparently, rationality still reigns at this site on beliefnet. However, the fact that someone could seriously entertain this question shows the degree to which many people have rejected facts and rationality in favor of "received wisdom" and "higher truths." Christians who supported Bush should remember that "logos" (Word) in John 1:1 has many meanings, including rationality. And while they are marching forward in triumph, Bibles and flags held high, they might also remember Jesus' warning that the path of life is narrow and few find it. A triumphant evangelical army doesn't fit on that narrow path.

rbethell

11/09/2004 08:45:57 AM

Jesus had much to say about the peacemakers, the humble, and the righteous. He did not once, that I can recall, endorse the "prosperity gospel" of American evangelicalism, the idea that Jabez is some sort of profound prayer meant to bring you tax cuts and opportunities to bomb people oversees. God lets us choose our own leaders. He was reluctant that we should have any at all, if 1 Samuel 8 is to be believed. But he lets us do as we will. Anyone we elect is a reflection of our will. We should not be so arrogant as to conflate our preferences with God's. "My ways are not your ways, and my thoughts are not your thoughts; but just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

paolomigli

11/09/2004 08:37:32 AM

I don't know that most of today's Christians wouldn't know Jesus, but theses evangelicals folks certainly are not familiar with basic Christian theology. To say that God willed the re-election of George W. Bush is to deign to know God's will and God's plan. This notion is arrogant at its most mild, and heretical at its worst. I think what a lot of these folks fail to realize is that with their lack of compassion, their lack of regard and their callous support of an unjust war that has resulted in scores of thousands of innocent death, they are every bit as much part of the Nation's decline into moral depravity as any of the most prurient film makers in Hollywood.

bardmountain

11/09/2004 08:18:53 AM

I have come to believe most Christians don't believe in the teachings of Jesus the Christ as presented in the Bible. The one major "moral" disagreement of the candidates was abortion. They both agreed abortion was wrong. One side wanted to impose that belief on others, the other side didn't. Jesus didn't have anything to say about abortion, but Jesus didn't force his beliefs on others. Jesus believed in loving kindness and free will. Jesus didn't have anything to say about homosexuality. Both candidates were against gay marriage. Both believed civil unions were a good idea. Jesus' primary teachings were compassion for the poor and nonviolence. Most Christians don't understand that. The current president cuts programs for the poor while he gives tax cuts to the rich. He embraces violence as a means to deliver "justice" and destroy his enemies. I think most Christians wouldn't know Jesus if he bit them on the ass.

Bodhi_Brother

11/09/2004 07:41:15 AM

I had to stop reading at page 2. This is beyond infuriating. I cannot believe that people can be so blind. lorelei's post about Jesus getting into Republican headquarters is hilarious.

sara41

11/09/2004 06:50:43 AM

I was elderly and could not afford medicine and groceries and you sided with the drug companies to prevent me from getting my medicine from Canada

sara41

11/09/2004 06:49:34 AM

I was hungry and you did not feed me. I was without a health insurance card and you turned me away.

melissa471

11/09/2004 06:29:43 AM

Let's see. Since Right Wing Christians seem so bent on condemning homosexuals, how much longer will it take before they begin to try and enforce the following: 1)It's a sin to eat rabbits, shellfish, pigs, or any other unclean animal. 2)Women are considered unclean after giving birth and must make a burnt offering to cleanse herself. 3)Men are forbidden to have sex with their wives while the wives are having their periods. 4)Mixed breeding of cattle and hybrid seeds are a sin. 5)Wearing clothes made of more than one kind of material is wrong. 6)Marking your skin is a sin, meaning tattoos. Funny how many Christians pick and choose what to condemn huh?

sara41

11/09/2004 06:27:27 AM

"Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you."

chautauquan

11/09/2004 05:43:41 AM

Let's see now...among the temptations offered to and rejected by Jesus from Satan was unlimited political power...Bush seems to relish the notion of possessing as much political power as possible...Makes you wonder just WHO IT WAS that might have "intervened" now, doesn't it??!!

KWinters

11/09/2004 04:15:46 AM

How despicable. To say that a Kerry presidency would represent a curse from God? These people are daily reminders why we need a seperation of church and state.

ManateeClaw3

11/09/2004 02:11:17 AM

Re: 'medieval' thinking, I agree. I grew up in a denomination which believed that there was a personal Creator who would definitely take revenge on our nation if we "disobeyed" the Bible, since, after all, we "know better." This is interesting b/c we are not Israel, and we have no scriptures stating that the US has a special covenant with God (and therefore tremendous responsibility to follow one religion). After 9/11 there seemed to be a bit of hysterical thinking on the part of a TV preacher who claimed that God (again, portrayed as an angry man out for revenge) had "lifted 'His' hand of protection" because we were becoming too tolerant of, you name it. I suspect that in many cases it isn't just that many conservative people disagree with, say, gay marriage as an idea, but that they may also be afraid of the nation actually being punished. (Better to say "I told you so" than to have to feel guilty for 9/11 or worse!) Fear breeds intolerance at a time when we most need each other.

BobbiCW

11/09/2004 02:02:12 AM

False prophets and the sheep that follow them... Well, I'm glad they're happy. They deserve exactly what they asked for!

Billy2008

11/09/2004 12:43:34 AM

I believe that these old concepts of God and the Devil truly need to change. I believe in God, but not as some guy sitting up in the sky that's going to judge me when I die. I see God as a universal energy, as the connection we all share as human beings to the world around us and the Universe. There is nothing mystical about it. There is no devil. There is no Heaven or Hell, except that which we create in our own minds. I believe in cause and effect... not that someone in the sky is trying to punish me or help Bush win the election. The only way that we are going to slip away from evil is by changing our minds about how we see the world and doing our best everyday to make it a better place. Bless you, Billy

fromoz

11/09/2004 12:32:36 AM

Did God Intervene? First you would have to prove to me that God exists? If you could do that, I believe the election of lies would be a sad reflection on your God.

ccpaine

11/09/2004 12:31:49 AM

I think that the evangelicals are off their collective rockers. God may very well have "blessed" America with Bush, in the same way that those whom God would destroy are first "blessed" with power.

Kimrdhbsms

11/09/2004 12:18:04 AM

If "Biff" Bush got any supernatural help getting elected, it wasn't from God, but from His nemesis. Bush and his Group have done so much lying, cheating, stealing, and murder, that I can't believe how anyone can call him or the rest of them moral.

thoughtful_dad

11/08/2004 10:48:50 PM

Has anyone else shared the profoundly unsettling feeling that medieval thinking still predominates our common culture?

YahyaBergum

11/08/2004 10:29:14 PM

Would this be a proper forum for discussing what evangelicals might be planning to do about the problem of male fish becoming female? I mean if a major industry was responsible for that sort of thing would it really be considered a crime against nature?

HarrySimeon

11/08/2004 10:27:32 PM

Take a look at the columns by Messrs David Brooks and Peter Steinfels from last Saturday's edition of the New York Times for a more balance view concerning the so-called "moral values" election.

jkevinm

11/08/2004 10:11:38 PM

So now I will spend all my energies over the next 4 years trying to educate people as to what being a Christian really means, and why our founding fathers included a very clear seperation of Church and state in the constitution. What is really sad, is the attempt to portray this 1.5% electoral win as a mandate. WE can COUNT on 4 more years of division, despite, and venom. Thanks Christian Right, Thanks Neo Con Nutballs, and thanks Mr. President for doing more to divide this country than anything since the Civil War.

JRT

11/08/2004 10:01:27 PM

The intrusion of a religious agenda into political life in a democracy is likely the most terrifying thing that I have witnessed in my lifetime. We might just be seeing the USA become a "Christian" Taliban nation. May God preserve us from such a fate.

WarriorSpirit

11/08/2004 09:10:20 PM

May God shield all life from the dangers of ignorance. -Warrior

YahyaBergum

11/08/2004 08:40:09 PM

Actually, I think a lot of those who fear God voted for Bush. Doubtless, a lot of those who fear God voted instead for Kerry. Sorry, but this article brings to mind those Islamists who insist they are only doing God's will. Yes, of course, that's true. We are all only doing God's will. Whether or not that will do us any good in the hereafter is yet to be seen.

lorelei

11/08/2004 08:31:20 PM

(cont) I went to a megachurch that only allowed married men to lead the home fellowships. Jesus would be out of luck there, too. Right wing evangelicals seem to be so far removed from what Jesus taught. Maybe they should try reading the Bible more. It is amazing how "abortion" is murder, but it is okay to approve the bombing and slaughter of thousands. Hypocrisy, anyone? Lorelei (a saddened red state dweller)

lorelei

11/08/2004 08:28:02 PM

Oh, brother. As if Jesus would be allowed anywhere near the Republican Headquarters, much less this country. Think about it. He would look Middle Eastern, probably wear natural fiber clothing and sandals, and on his application to come into the country, would write "Social Activist". Not even to mention he would be an unmarried man in his thirties (they would think he was gay). If Cat Stevens can't get in and he wrote "Peace Train", J.C. wouldn't stand a chance!

StephenK.Adams

11/08/2004 08:07:50 PM

Christianity is a superstitious fable. When such fables are accepted as truth, they can lead to ridiculous conclusions such as the one at question here. Imagine, wanting to be governed by people who think in this way. Fortunately most Christians are sensible people who take the good from their religion and place the supestitious nonsense in a closet where they seldom look.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/08/2004 07:35:03 PM

Maybe religious people are just desperate for some tangible manifestation of supernatural power, so they see what they want to see. God isn't real to them unless they can point to miracles.

wind_song1

11/08/2004 07:25:46 PM

Pre-rant apology: I know most Christians out there are very nice people. The ones who really need to read my rant are the ones who aren't reading. 1) The United States never was, nor never should be, a Christian nation. Pressuring all of a nation to conform to a standard set of religious beliefs is one of the most immoral acts in the universe. 2) Gay marriage, abortion, and contraception are RELIGIOUS issues. Separation of Church and State, people! 3) Those of you who are Christian, evangelical or not, must realize most of us non-Christians don't want to convert. We have our own religions that work for us and we don't want to see these religious issues put in law. It forces YOUR [Christian] religion down OUR throats. Also, one doesn't have to be Judeo-Christian or Muslim to be very religious. God/dess bless, Wind_song1

F1Fan

11/08/2004 07:11:45 PM

God intervenes on behalf of George W Goofball, but does nothing to stop child abusers? That makes sense. This is another example of how evangelicals do not apply reality in creating their perceptive framework. They must be so desperate to find validfity for their outrageous beliefs that they stoop to assigning the election results to their version of god. Well, if this is true, then it's an incompetent god, and I'm not impressed. And I refuse to follow a god that is less competent than I am as a fallible human being. I hope many of you are with me.

anarchy

11/08/2004 06:50:02 PM

Did God Intervene? -My answer is no. No god can intervene with life, if you ask me no higher powerful being would favor a single individual over another.

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