Not a Prodigal Son

Kerry has a different language, a different connection to ritual, and a different relationship to Jesus than that of Bush.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/03/2004 01:43:54 PM

This is an interesting discussion, but I think it should be moved to a beliefnet site that focuses on the issue of abortion. It is too important to be consigned to a site as irrelevant as this one, ostensibly focusing on John Kerry's faith.

GreenMtGirl

11/03/2004 12:55:41 PM

windbender talks about who "decides whether or not you become pregnant." It doesn't take a belief in God to recognize that a person can choose to avoid pregnancy by not having sex. This is what it means to "have control" of your body. windbender continues, "Tens of housands of fertalized ovum sit frozen...Each has the POTENTIAL to become a person. Until they are brought to term, none is." So, you are saying that you're not willing to acknowledge a baby as alive until he/she is "brought to term." So, according to your view, preemies are not really people. I suppose you would think it odd for a parent to request an in-the-womb operation for their pre-term baby which could save the baby's life, since you don't think that baby is a person yet. In addition, if a baby is born at 7 months gestation, is it fine for the parent to kill that baby, since (in your view) he/she is only a person after the 9th month?

windbender

11/02/2004 06:59:43 PM

Cont. One faith teaches that G-d is the one who decides whether or not you become pregnant - another may have come to believe (as a result of a better understanding of the process) that, though it's called the Miracle of Life, you actually can have control over when this happens for you. Both recognize that you CAN make the choice, but one doesn't believe you should be ALLOWED to make it. See where I'm going? Tens of housands of fertalized ovum sit frozen in fertility clinics around the world. Each has the POTENTIAL to become a person. Until they are brought to term, none is.

windbender

11/02/2004 06:52:02 PM

GreenMtGirl - Bless your heart for being so sensitive, it speaks well of your character. Speaking up for, as well as taking up for and protecting, those who cannot do so for themselves is a tradition that goes back in time for thousands of years to the very roots of what it means to be a Jew (though we have no monopoly on a moral life). But there is a difference between the priority of taking care of people who are, and the decision to take it upon one's self to protect those who have yet to be.

Livindesert

11/02/2004 02:34:00 PM

As far as I am concerned Bush is a Pharisee and Kerry is a diciple.

GreenMtGirl

11/01/2004 11:29:47 AM

Hey! A response. :) Caring about life does not mean only caring about certain lives. It means caring about the unborn and the born, considering all life precious before God. Speaking up for the unborn is similar to speaking up for any other human who cannot speak for themselves. There are many circumstances in which a person might not be able to speak for themselves: an alzheimer's patient or anyone else 'not in their right mind,' a person in a coma, a person who is a deaf mute, a child of 2 years old or younger, and yes, an unborn child. tgflux states "those citations of 'I knew you in the womb' are preposterously inadequate, BTW: no fetus spoke/penned those lines!" So, tgflux, is your test for humanness then someone who can speak or does the person also need to express their thoughts on paper? What form of expression would allow you to acknowledge a person's humanity? Do the uneducated and illiterate fall below the critical measure of "life?"

tgflux

11/01/2004 12:11:58 AM

But as far as what happens *after* Election Day (or, um, whenever we know who's President---which may take a lot longer), I really hope that we can have a conversation about the virtues of *Christianity* (that is, the Church---the Body of Christ---of which I am but a weak member) versus the Fetus-Worship Cult (which is another of the Church's regrettably many offshoots). We could discuss the Biblical basis of the former, but not the latter, for instance (those citations of "I knew you in the womb" are preposterously inadequate, BTW: no fetus spoke/penned those lines!) And as far as scientific definitions of "life": how different are those definitions than, say, a living *cow*? Is mere DNA to be the difference between worship, and the burger most of us had for dinner? Well, maybe DNA *is* enough for John Kerry (if he think that life---i.e. human life---begins at conception). Ergo, please vote for him: billions of post-fetuses around the world (polls show) will thank for it!

tgflux

11/01/2004 12:10:55 AM

Inasmuch as I would like for every voting American, even fetus-worshippers, to vote for John Kerry on Tuesday, I really shouldn't speak out in this way---and risk alienating them. (Let me try to put it in words they can understand: "I believe that John Kerry's policies, at home and abroad, will ensure that far more of these gestational-females remain healthy enough to enshrine your uber-precious fetuses until they are born . . . and for those of you who *do* care about what happens after, then the 'post-unborn' will be better off, too. Especially if they're Iraqi. Or poor Americans.")

tgflux

11/01/2004 12:07:59 AM

So much of what passes for Christianity in this culture (Protestant *and* Catholic) could be more properly described as "fetus-worship." By that I mean that, in this belief-system, the fate of the homo sapiens fetus is the Be All and End All: nothing else, in heaven or on Earth, matters. As long as every fetus is enshrined to develop until such time that it emerges from that mere "gestation chamber" (which is the adult female), Glory Hallelujah (after birth, the now-born human can rot!). Bizarre.

lilacjd6

10/31/2004 09:59:17 PM

I am so sad to hear how many people are blinded by this lying, misleading, and "not sure which side I'm on It depends on what you want me to say" man. Do you understand that just because you go to church or read you bible it DOES NOT MAKE YOU A CHRISTIAN!?!?! What does is a life that is lived according to God's purpose, his scripture and his will. And the biggest thing is a personal relationship with him. It is like a friendship only this friend loves and forgives unconditionally. He has already gone before us and died for our sins. PLEASE AMERICA LOOK AT KERRY'S TRACK RECORD!!! FOR heaven's sake look at his wife( didn't even acknowledge Laura Bush's job history.....are you kidding ME???? Bush is a solid man that is trying to live his life according to God's plan...look at who he has surrounded himself by...HIS AMAZINGLY classy sophisticated and brilliant WIFE. he is being voted for by Godly men like Pat Roberson, Michael W. Smith, James Dobson, billy graham...

Heretic_for_Christ

10/30/2004 04:09:30 PM

Moderatemenno, I share your anguish about voting. I am not enthusiastic about Kerry, but either he or Bush will be the next president. At worst, Kerry will be a mediocre president; at best, Bush will be a continuing disaster. As for third-party candidates, Nader is a narcissistic egotist (if he were the progressive he claims to be, he would have supported Dennis Kucinich). Other third-party candidates may be deserving, but our poll-dominated voting system precludes their election. If and when Americans realize how polls distort the election process and start telling the pollsters to get lost, then it will be time to vote for the person you truly admire. Right now, I think we must vote realistically for the person who is likely to be better rather than worse for America's future.

moderatemenno

10/28/2004 08:03:42 PM

I am still struggling with my vote (although I will not vote for Bush due to the war). Two stumbling blocks in voting for Kerry: (1)Kerry voting for the war (How I wish he had stood up to the President with a vote against authorization!) and (2) His total support for abortion rights, even partial birth. Perhaps a vote for a third party candidate may be the best option this time.

GreenMtGirl

10/19/2004 06:53:02 AM

Second, there are laws in place to take care of that issue. Self-defense is a valid reason to choose your life over that of another's. In the rare case that a pregnancy threatens the life of a mother, doctors generally act to save the life of the mother. In addition, I don't see that PBA needs to be part of this equation. The mother has to deliver the baby anyway once the abortionists have sucked its brains out, so why not just induce labor and deliver a live baby instead? Babies killed using PBA are the same gestational age as babies that get in-the-womb operations. So, they are not people in one case, but they are people in the other?

GreenMtGirl

10/19/2004 06:46:36 AM

LM, first,why is being opposed to abortion a church/state issue? It's a moral issue. I've heard Kerry use the phrase "don't legislate morality," but this seems silly because that's what laws do by their very nature. Laws tell us one behavior is "right" and another is "wrong." What the general moral world view of a community is,faith-based or not faith-based, will affect what laws are put into place. The abortion question should be a matter of when it is that you are a person, since killing people is wrong in our society. Science supports the view that life begins within the womb. As early as 8 weeks into their gestational development, babies inside their mothers' wombs exhibit all four signs of life that are used in hospitals on "born" people to determine if they are still alive. Partial-birth abortion is a procedure which takes place in the later stages of pregancy. Even if you would argue that life doesn't begin until 8 weeks after conception, this still makes PBA questionable.

lexingtonmom

10/17/2004 11:43:21 PM

Dear GreenMtGirl, Kerry answered this question clearly: 1) he understands the separation of church and state, and 2) the bill in question had no exceptions for saving the life or health of the mother: if such a law had been in force a few years ago, I and many other women would now be dead. Sad- heartbreaking, but true. Better, to do the things, economic, educational and otherwise that will make it less likely for women and girls to get into such difficult situations, and more likely to have better options available.

GreenMtGirl

10/16/2004 10:33:40 AM

What I don't get is that Kerry says that he is opposed to abortion, but when he had the opportunity to prevent one of the most horrible types of abortion - partial birth abortion - he voted (6x) against the ban of this inhumane, tortuous practice. In what sense does he oppose abortion?

etsryan

10/16/2004 12:07:39 AM

I attend St. Lawrence Catholic Church and Newman Center in Minneapolis and one of the priests here knows the Pastor in Boston where John Kerry worships. I understand daily Mass devotion and I get cranky if my/that commitment is downplayed. Bravo, Kerry, for what seems to be a solid prayer life. Please help the prolife cause more. That goes for everyone. Thanks. I care about the social justice issues. I believe life for unborn humans is one of them. I think a lot of 'birth control' is abortifacient. I don't use it. I appreciate Kerry sharing views/beliefs about life beginning at conception and why he believes the way he does. I understand pluralism in this republic. I also know that one cannot serve two masters successfully. Dear God, lead us not into temptation and guide this election and protect everyone involved. Guide all believers to the place(s) You want them to be. Help us witness faithfully in all aspects of our lives. Jesus' peace & love! e.t./sue > :) (:

lulu553

10/13/2004 08:40:16 PM

May God allow the best person to win the presidency. I am sick of war. We need a president who will try to gain peace with other countries. Right now there are many countries who literally hates the United States. Maybe peace will blot out terrorism. I don't know. Solving domestic issues should be a big part of the president's platform. Lack of healthcare, jobs outsourcing, unemployment, homelessness, high oil prices, etc. are issues that many people face today. God says that if His people which are called by His name shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek His face, and turn from their wicked ways, then He will hear from Heaven and forgive their sin, and will heal their land. Only God can provide peace to a nation. This nation should turn to God and then fear will not consume the people. God is in control no matter what situation this nation is in. To God be the Glory.

spalenchar

10/13/2004 03:17:33 PM

Kerry Funded BY MULLAHS- Author and political scientist Jerome Corsi, who plans to attend Thursday's press conference, told CNSNews.com, "The Democratic Party and John Kerry have been funded by pro-mullah groups who have Israel as their sworn enemy. They are funding insurgents to go against our troops in Iraq, and John Kerry wants to give them nuclear fuel." http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/10/12/122627.shtml

GreenMtGirl

10/12/2004 03:31:10 PM

Psalm 139:13,15,16 "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb...My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." This is why "thou shalt not kill" is an instruction against abortion. Even in the womb, God considers you to be a person.

StKateri

10/12/2004 09:02:09 AM

keridwen I know you said 'nevermind', but 'thou shall not kill' comes easily to mind! If you are a non-christian, you probably disregard the New Testament. But the above command is in the Old Testament.

docjoc

10/10/2004 01:34:27 AM

I agree that "It IS disturbing that his voting record on Abortion and Gay Marriage do not fall in line with his beliefs" How can Kerry call himself a Catholic and not follow the teaching of the Church. Indeed, if he does not believe what the Church teaches...he SHOULD get out.

Keridwen

10/04/2004 11:17:41 PM

Um, nevermind. As a non-christian, I don't really care what the Bible says. Disregard.

Keridwen

10/04/2004 10:34:27 PM

Thankful Sevant, Is your name a play on "servant" or "savant"? It certainly would change the tenor of your responses. Where is the so-called Bible does it say that abortion is prohibited? Name the verse, please.

caryn1221

10/01/2004 01:27:13 PM

Furthermore, Thankful Servant, It's an awfully slippery slope to try to start attacking an entire religion based on the actions of a few....yes, the terrible, dreadful scandal regarding the abuse of children at the hands of certain priest is horrific and absolutely unacceptable--but do not, for a moment be so arrogant as to think that sexual abuse is only prevalent in the Catholic Church...let's not forget James Baker and his scandelous actions. The terrible actions of these priests is not indicative of a problem with Catholicism--we are all given free will and the power to exercise it. Jesus Himself gave us the sacrament of confession--not because He needs the priest to forgive us, but because He recognized our human need to hear that we are forgiven. Do not forget that Jesus told the apostles to carry on His Church.

caryn1221

10/01/2004 12:57:48 PM

Thankful Servant, I believe that this article was meant to inform people about John Kerry's religious background--not incite a debate about Catholocism vs Protestantism....Open your mind a little...just because he expresses his faith differently than GW, does not make his faith any less valid. It IS disturbing that his voting record on Abortion and Gay Marriage do not fall in line with his beliefs--it's disturbing to you and it is disturbing to me as a Catholic. That does not mean, however, that it's open season to attack Catholicism.

rawwar73

09/16/2004 08:16:46 PM

Thankful servant, why is Bush doing a better job of listening to God if the only "Christian" stands he has are against abortion and gay marriage? What about not lying? This administration has been one of the most consistantly dishonest we've had since Nixon, and I'm not even counting the WMD issue in Iraq, which I think was a fairly sincere error. What about our stewartship over the earth? Bush has shown that he honors the almighty dollar over the environment just on priciple. Why isn't Bush listening to God's instructions for compassion for the imprisoned - yes we need to deal with those who would harm us, but by looking for loopholes in the Geneva convention?!?! Why isn't Bush listening to God's commands not to bear false witness against your neighbor? Take a look at the completely non-partisan sight factcheck.org and you will find that each of Bush's ads attacking John Kerry's record are based on lies and extreme distortion. So, if Bush is such a good, Christian man, why isn't HE listening to God?

chattie318

09/15/2004 06:49:17 PM

What alot of you forget is the Vietnam War was still using the draft. I lost my husband there. I don't discount this war as another Vietnam. This war was a necessary thing to keep our country safe. The fight right now over there BUT IT STARTED HERE ON 9-11-01. The men who are fighting now ARE VOLUNTEERS and the RESERVE GUARD are ALSO VOLUNTEERS. They signed up to get that EXTRA MONEY each month for one weekend and two weeks a summer. THAT IS STILL VOLUNTEERING. They were not drafted into the reserves. My father was active service during WWII and got out and VOLUNTEERED for the reserves and when called back up he went and served 6 tours over in Vietnam and I was proud of him. He also served in the Korean War and I was proud of him. He received the DISTINGUISHED FLYING CROSS and to me he was a hero. And one more thing before I get off. My father WAS NOT DRAFTED FOR WWII --HE VOLUNTEERED BECAUSE HIS COUNTRY NEEDED HIM TO SERVE TO PROTECT HIS COUNTRY AND FAMILY AND FREEDOMS.

THANKFULSEVANT

09/15/2004 12:48:56 PM

THIS IS FOR DEBORAH CALDWELL. YES IT MAY HAVE TOOK OUR PRESIDENT A WHILE TO FIND HIS WAY HOME TO GOD,BUT HE DID. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU ARE QUESTIONING THE ETHICS OF BILLY GRAHAM? ALL I KNOW IS THAT IF MR.KERRY IS SO CLOSED TO GOD WHY ISN'T HE LISTENING TO GOD WHEN HE SAYS IN THE BIBLE THAT ABORTION IS AN ABOMINATION UNTO GOD AND THAT BEING GAY IS A CHOICE YOU ARE NOT BORN WITH SIN.JESUS SAID"I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER,BUT BY ME." YOU SEE YOU GUYS NEED TO CUT OUT THE MIDDLE MAN(THE PRIEST YOU CONFESS TO) GOD IS EVERY WHERE SO IF YOU SIN HE IS ALREADY AWARE OF IT AND IS WAITNG FOR YOU TO ASK FOR HIS FORGIVENESS,A PRIEST CAN'T FORGIVE YOU.WHEN DOES YOUR CHURCH ACKNOWLEDGE IT HAS PEDIOPHILES IN IT AND THEY SHOULD BE IN PRISON NOT IN SOME CONFESSIONAL.

umdedu

09/01/2004 11:14:32 PM

Let's see, by the standards of BKenn01, anyone who repeats lies enough times, even when refuted by hard-evidence in every major paper in America, has the benefit of doubt, as a matter of fairness??? I don't think so. God and anyone who has taken the time to follow the story knows Kerry is the one telling the truth. In typical Republican political gyration, oxymorons are used to confuse the public. Swiftboaters for truth. No Child Left Behind. Clear Skies Initiative. Land and Water Conservation Funds. Compassionate Conservatism.

KenzysAunt

08/19/2004 08:05:01 PM

P.S. BKenn Kerry was there and was shot . . . what's to question? bush took the easy way out - Kerry could have done the same but he chose to go because he believed it was his civic and moral obligation. Bush has no morals.

KenzysAunt

08/19/2004 08:03:11 PM

BKenn: The Swiftboat men gave up the right to voice anything when they took money to do so. Who do you think is paying for them to travel around the country and spread lies? Check out the Washington Post article defaming one of the swift boat men. One of them is seen in an advertisement years ago, praising Kerry for his bravery and leadership in Vietnam. What changed his mind? Money - plain and simple. He sold out. That's why the Vietnam vets who support Kerry make it known that no one is paying them to make statements. They were with him and they appreciate him. George Bush is an evil and dangerous man; he needs to be stopped. His arrogance is appalling.

BKenn01

08/15/2004 11:01:12 PM

Kenzys Aunt, As for Tereza Heinz, it is because it is Republican money. Senator Heinz is probably rolling over in his grave right now. As to Senator Kerrys war record. Only he and God know for sure what happened, but these Swift Boat men have every right to raise the issue. Kerry made it an issue when he started using it to his favor. If they can questions Bushs service, there is every reason to question Kerrys.

KenzysAunt

08/15/2004 01:53:30 PM

Kymus: It's funny how the people who argue that they're fighting for our freedom and sending our young men and women into war to enable us to continun enjoying "our freedoms" are the same people who want to deny the very basic freedom of every American -- the very thread that was used to weave the fibers of this nation -- to co-exist with one another in a safe environment and to practice our faith (or lack of it)without fear of persecution from the government or anyone else.

KenzysAunt

08/15/2004 01:41:33 PM

Why does everyone resent Theresa Heinz because she was married to a rich man and inherited his fortune when he died? More power to her. John Kerry "worked" his way through the jungle -- up and down the swampy river in Vietnam--he didn't have to, he could have been a coward like the p-Resident living in our White House, but he chose to go and serve. He has worked hard in the senate on many committees, and also by -- returning to Vietnam with Republican senator John McCain in a non-partisan effort to find those MIAs that others forgot about, and to rebuild relations with Vietnam and the poor people remaining there whose country we destroyed,-- that LisaN is hard work . . . sorry you cannot see that.

LisaN

08/13/2004 06:44:28 PM

he is a hard working, honest man. He got where he is by hard work - not by privilege . . . like some other politicians we know. >>>> Well it is hard work being married to an heiress I guess. Beyond that I am curious what 'hard work' Kerry has engaged in.

Kymus

08/05/2004 08:47:33 PM

truly: instead of being such religious activists, perhaps they need to learn how to accept others first. They think for some reason that their actions are justified when I am sure even Jesus would say "You poor misguided child..."

trulyalarmed

08/05/2004 06:52:00 PM

i really like what you said kymus. i got the same experience because i looked/acted/smelled like a fag-even before i knew what i was. it never occurs to some people- who just feel it is their right to judge, or ask really personal questions- that some of us just don't like that kind of treatment. it would be nice to wear a ring, necklace or earring, and have noone say anything, or ask anything or judge anything out of their ignorance. i just don't feel it is ever necessary to ask "what is that, what do you believe, why do you believe that way?" even when i was practicing christianity, i never could tell someone their beliefs were wrong- somewhere within me acceptance and understanding came naturally. i am greatful, i feel more enlightened, but i do have strong indignation to the point of contention against people who act ignorantly or assinine when they don't understand how someone else believes-it actually repulses me. my theory: if i can accept you how is it you can't do the same for me?

Kymus

08/04/2004 11:07:50 PM

KenzysAunt: I have been trying to argue this point (religious freedom) for years, not many want to listen. They just want to jump onto their bigot-bus that only serves the majority. I think that many of these people need to spend some time on the other side. For 10 years I practiced Witchcraft openly. I always wore a necklace with my religious symbol, and sometimes a ring too. Too many times I had to hide my religion from others so as not to get judged or persecuted because of the bastardisation that has occured over the centuries to its name. Many times people tried to tell me I was following the devil (my step father still thinks I was), and all this about how I should convert.. When you are faced with this daily, and faced with religious decisions made by the government that respect only 1 religion - it gets rather tiresome, and you really start to resent that religion, and it's followers - for their ignorance and bigotry.

KenzysAunt

08/04/2004 08:23:47 PM

I think America will be surprised by John Kerry. I think he may be the best. I think he is a hard working, honest man. He got where he is by hard work - not by privilege . . . like some other politicians we know.

KenzysAunt

08/04/2004 08:22:10 PM

Amen, Kymus! As Americans, we have no right to impose our individual religious beliefs on others. Our personal religious beliefs have no place in politics. If we remove abortion from the political arena, we can concentrate on the other issues that affect the Nation as a whole.

Kymus

08/04/2004 01:26:57 AM

BKenn: If I could of done the picking, if any of us could, I think that we would ultimately pick someone we have faith will do what he says he will do once in office. It's pretty bad that Presidents and canidates are known for not doing what they claim they'll do once in office. It makes 1/2 of us morons and the other 1/2 wishers - wishing for alteast something a little better (even though we know it may not be by much)

BKenn01

08/03/2004 11:34:45 PM

Kymus, I just wish that if I am going to be stuck with somebody, and I am hoping I am not, that you guys could have talked somebody into running that appears to have some sense, like say Evan Byah of Indiana or John Brox (cant remember how it is spelled)of Louisiana. These guys seem to have a lot of sense and dont scare the He** out of those of us on the Right.

Kymus

08/03/2004 07:48:12 PM

I find it funny that mayn people feel that Kerry is not religious because he is not all-for passing relious based laws. In the first ammendment of our constitution, it states - congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion. Kerry, it seems, respects our constitution and wishes to uphold it. Religion does not belong in our politics, and it's rather sad that Kerry has to hype up the religion subject to get votes to compete with Bush. Whos right is it to pass a religious based law? There are dozens of different religions practiced in the US today - to try to establish a law that respects simply one religion, it is not only bigoted and wrong - but it's unconstitutional.

Kymus

08/03/2004 07:28:32 PM

nyybaseball: he may not be the best, but he's better than bush could ever hope to be. bush talks about national security - but yet he is our biggest threat to it.

nyybaseball

08/03/2004 03:52:51 PM

KERRY IS THE RIP VAN WINKLE OF POLITICS. HE IS ASKING AMERICANS TO VOTE FOR HIM ON THE BASIS OF WHAT HE DID FOR 4 MONTHS AND 12 DAYS IN VIETNAM IN 68-69 AND ON THE BASIS OF WHAT HE SAID SINCE SEWING UP THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION. THE 35 YEARS IN BETWEEN HAVE DROPPED DOWN THE MEMORY HOLE. KERRY FIRST BECAME A PUBLIC FIGURE AS A SPOKESMAN FOR VIETNAM VETERANS AGAINST THE WAR, IN PARTICULAR WITH HIS RIVETING AND FALSE TESTIMONY BEFOR A US SENATE COMMITTEE IN 1971 ACCUSING HIS FELLOW VETS OF WAR CRIMES. THOUGH HE OWES HIS CAREER TO THEM, KERRY'S ANTI-WAR ACTIVITIES RECEIVED NARY A MENTION AT HIS CORONATION. KERRY HAS SERVED IN THE SENATE FOR 20 YEARS BUT DEVOTED JUST 2 SENTENCES TO IT IN HIS ACCEPTANCE SPEECH. THERE ISN'T MUCH TO SAY, SINCE HIS RECORD IS DEVOID OF SIGNIFICANT ACCOMPLISHMENT BUT IT IS STILL A STARTLING OMISSION.

alranusch

08/01/2004 06:28:29 PM

I agree with the late Cardinal Bernardin's image that life is a seamless garment in which life must be respected in all of its forms. Therefore, people who condemn abortion while writing off the women and children killed in our Iraqi military operations or while supporting the death penalty fail to see the connectedness of the sanctity of all human life. ALSO, people like Kerry who advocate respect for life in other ways and yet would continue to allow countless unborn infants to be killed thru abortion EQUALLY just don't get it. He even strongly defends partial birth abortion, which the AMA has admitted is never a medical necessity and which, when you look at it head on, is basically infanticide. ALL human life, from womb to tomb, no matter how dependent and helpless, deserves to be nurtured and protected.

andrewcyrus

08/01/2004 06:27:34 PM

Now review what hangs on these two commandments! 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. That was Mat 20, by the way! ALL THE LAW!! Should we do our homework?

andrewcyrus

08/01/2004 06:25:36 PM

In case you don't have a quick reference! 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

andrewcyrus

08/01/2004 06:22:09 PM

And by the way I would encourage all true bible believing christians to pull out their bibles and review how JESUS summarizes the ten commandments.t is quite different that Mr. Kerry's watered down version.

andrewcyrus

08/01/2004 06:18:02 PM

We should not be mistaken about what is now the reality of terrorism. It is a HOLY WAR. And christians are now being targeted.

andrewcyrus

08/01/2004 06:16:31 PM

I personally believe he waited and debated long enough for the Iraq's to get the Weopons of Mass Destruction out of IRAQ.. I don't believe he would have done this had it not been for a great deal of patience with some very disloyal members of the United Nations! We are singled out in the WORLD no doubt by Al Quaida and everyother Junior Jihad out there with suicide and homicide as his entrance plan into heaven.

andrewcyrus

08/01/2004 06:14:08 PM

catholic seeker, I think Kerry's brand of Christianity will be a refreshing change, after Bush's fire-and-brimstone spew. What I personally liked about Bush was that he was making decisions, that weren't in reaction to the polls, but to the safekeeping of our country! I personally believe he waited and debated long enough for the Iraq's to get the Weopons of Mass Destruction out of IRAQ..

andrewcyrus

08/01/2004 06:09:08 PM

What else is new in the world of politics, self interest groups, and lobbyist's? A righteous man is about God's word in truth and in deed..

andrewcyrus

08/01/2004 06:07:02 PM

From this definiton, "The second commandment means that our commitment to equal rights and social justice, here and around the world, is not simply a matter of political fashion or economic and social theory but a direct command from God..." WE CAN SEE THAT THE ACT OF SIN WILL BE GIVEN EQUAL STATUS! Socially, politically and economically..

andrewcyrus

08/01/2004 06:05:07 PM

"The first commandment means we must believe that there are absolute standards of right and wrong. They may not always be that clear, but they exist, and it is our duty to honor them as best we can." Leaves alot of room for MORAL fog! A person that hasn't done the homework necessary to establish the righteousness of God, is in my opinion a leader that can be tossed and turned by the whims of mens doctrines!

andrewcyrus

08/01/2004 06:03:00 PM

From this piece, "The first two follow directly from the two great commandments set forth in the Scriptures: our obligations to love God with all our hearts, souls, and minds and to love our neighbors as ourselves. The first commandment means we must believe that there are absolute standards of right and wrong. They may not always be that clear, but they exist, and it is our duty to honor them as best we can. "The second commandment means that our commitment to equal rights and social justice, here and around the world, is not simply a matter of political fashion or economic and social theory but a direct command from God..."

ruffian64

07/31/2004 08:25:41 AM

Someone needs to tell him that Paul warned of taking the Eucharist in an unworthy manner.

iamjdh

07/30/2004 06:02:33 PM

Re: Thanatolia... and why can't we just all hold hands and get along? I want that as much as anyone (you included). However, unfortunately, failing to recognize and stand up to evil gets innocent people hurt. Divisions among churches are usually just about preferences. But divisions like between athiest and Christian are not so simple. What you are saying is akin to saying what difference does it make if you marry a faithful man or an adulterer. Some differences are real--as real as God.

Thanatolia

07/30/2004 04:00:33 PM

I, for one, as a former Catholic who still is touched by the pre-Vatican II ritual, can only shake my head in disbelief at the ignorance being shown by people who will not accept the idea of personal faith. Please don't divide us into liberal or conservative, secular humanists or evangelical christians. We are all manifestations of the Cosmic consciousness that guides our lives. We are here to learn from one another, not to lash out at those who might be different from what we perceive to be "right". My one argument is with that branch of Christianity that says it's okay to kill doctors and nurses just because they perform abortions, but don't allow the woman to make that deeply personal decision based on her life circumstances. I agree with those people that say that Church and State must be separate, but do not understand the total exclusion of God in statements like the Pledge of Allegiance. Any extreme fundamentalism, be it Taliban or Christian, is plain wrong.

catholicseeker

07/30/2004 03:12:25 PM

A lot of people have said Kerry is not religious and not a good Catholic. After reading this article, I no longer have any compunctions about voting for him. It seems to me he is actually far more devout than I, so I cannot judge him. I agree with Cardinal Bernidin's seamless garment theology, and like Kerry, I do not wear my religion on my sleeve. I simply try to let my faith inform me every time I interact with another human being. I think Kerry's brand of Christianity will be a refreshing change, after Bush's fire-and-brimstone spew.

lucilius

07/30/2004 02:05:23 PM

If you'd bothered to actually read the article, schofield, rather than just search for any phrase you could pry out of its context to gripe about, you would have seen that the statement about Kerry and his friends not sharing "personal testimony" of religiosity dealt not with fitness for office, but rather with standard American Catholic as opposed to evangelical Protestant practice. So you're accusing 51 million Catholics of bigotry, not some dark cabal of "Atheists/Secular Humanists/Liberal Christians." I think you'd get along quite well with Dubya. You both love to hallucinate gangs of mortal enemies when confronted with anything less than total conformity with your own beliefs.

akh25

07/30/2004 01:56:17 PM

Funny how outspoken people of all religions who want religion infused into every topic of the day aren't much different than the Taliban. Church and state should be seperate because that's what the constitution calls for. And amen to trulyalarmed - amen!

trulyalarmed

07/30/2004 01:04:24 PM

schofield said: "Wow. This country is really becoming bigotted against Evangelical Christians." coming from a group of really hateful, organized religious people who attempt to gender strife, prosletyse, set the standards by which everyone must conform or else, i must say you are completley wrong in your theory. evangelical christians try time and again to impose their beliefs on everyone and when someone stands up against them, they cry fowl. i'm sure my favorite EC, fred phelps would never admit to being a bigot, a hater, a homophobe add infinitem, because in his heart god agrees with everything he says, in fact he believes god speaks through him. i don't need to say more, EC's that express their opinions in the public light say more than enough to validate my humble opinion.

huckfinn

07/30/2004 12:30:30 PM

Kerry's "Catholicism" is incoherent.

Priam

07/30/2004 12:27:38 PM

schofield, politicians are allowed to live out their faith and use the office as the pulpit as long as it is the official and acceptable faith of the elites. The faith of the elites is secular humanism. It is also a faith based belief system and has it's own holy book: "The Humanist Manifesto". Funny how these hypocrites who cry for separation from church and state are not much different from the Taliban.

akh25

07/30/2004 11:43:58 AM

Also, clearly George Bush, as is ANY American Citizen meeting the requirements set forth, is eligible for running for President.

akh25

07/30/2004 11:42:49 AM

I would say there is a time and place for for every discussion. I am not sure politics is the place for it - remember the constitution? No state religion. When any of our leaders (democrat or republican) begin using their office as a pulpit, we are asking for trouble.

schofield

07/30/2004 11:35:26 AM

"It's just that sharing one's personal testimony is simply not done in those circles. " So, if a person expresses his faith like George Bush, he should be inelligable to run for President or be President. But if he "wears [his/her] faith in [his/her] heart and in [his/her] soul," then they can be President? Wow. This country is really becoming bigotted against Evangelical Christians. Of course, I knew that already by reading many of the articles/posts on Beliefnet. I wonder why Atheists/Secular Humanists/ Liberal Christians, etc., are allowed to be so uncomfortable with Evangelical Christian language, but Evangelical Christians are supposed to sit back and shut up when they speak. Interesting hypocrisy, isn't it.

maplewood

07/30/2004 11:14:27 AM

Ms. Caldwell: my compliments on your article about Kerry. I'm not political, but your description of the recent history/state of American Catholicism is well-balanced. Thanks.

akh25

07/30/2004 10:07:14 AM

Curious to know why you would say that? Sounds like blanket generalizations seem convenient.

anarchy

07/30/2004 09:59:40 AM

Religious people are not just mindness indivudal who act upon a jaded sense of right wonged morality. Alot are leftist who feel content with their deeply realistic religious faith, they unlike the right wingers are not slaves to their religion or their so called code of morality.

dplatt

07/30/2004 09:59:11 AM

akh25: A Unitarian in Texas? How do you survive? Actually, while I admit I am very torn on the abortion issue, I have respect for "seamless garment" pro-lifers such as the late Cardinal O'Connor, who opposed both abortion and capital punishment. Even Philip Berrigan protested abortion, a stance which lost him more than a few friends on the Left.

lucilius

07/30/2004 09:39:04 AM

Kyjohn: "a religious man?! one who endorses and stands for the right to butcher the unborn?" Yeah, as opposed to the "religious man" currently occupying the White House, who just likes butchering the already-born.

akh25

07/30/2004 09:33:37 AM

I am from the midwest and moved to Texas where nearly everyone loves to talk about their personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To me, it is the most bizarre and unnecessary conversation to be had. Where I am from, we would always defend our beliefs if under attack but we never witnessed to anyone. We led our lives to give an example, if someone wanted to know how we were able to do that, then we would use that as an openeing to discuss the role of God/religion in our life. It makes me uncomfortable how much Bush talks about that - to me, it is alientating. I can completely relate with Kerry on how he views religion. Also, social justice is a seamless cloth. If you are pro-life, you are pro-life at every stage of life and for every human being. I think there are a lot of Cafeteria Pro-Lifers,it is very easy to defend a baby but not so easy to defend a person who has committed a horrible crime or those bad people who live "over there" - I think Jesus would have defended all.

kyjohn

07/30/2004 09:28:42 AM

a religious man?! one who endorses and stands for the right to butcher the unborn?

anglo_catholic

07/29/2004 11:37:53 PM

on Kerry I think he is best we got and maybe he not perfect, but is better than bush. Anyone is better than bush. I do not dislike bush for who is he. I dislike that his name only reason he got in. I would never run for white house and I have no place there. I like bush, but he is cleary not htinking for himself. If he stay in there will be a draft and we do not need that.

anglo_catholic

07/29/2004 11:36:02 PM

well I am prolife, but i feel a woman have the right to pick for herself/ it is murder and you can not change that if ask me. you rep what you sow. I did not think buddsit would care about abortion really.

anarchy

07/29/2004 10:05:00 PM

I think stem cells effect the sick who need those cells in order to live without disease and I know that woman are the only beings who can get pregnant therefore as a man I really hope I am never put in a situation where a significant other would want an abortion but it's not my body. She has to know that if she aborts it then there will be karmic repercussions.

anarchy

07/29/2004 10:04:53 PM

Nobody really actually knows if abortion is "mass murder” but let me clearly tell you that I also take a Conservativistic view on abortion because to me abortion can be used as an excuse by irresponsible woman who feel that screwing around with everything that walks is like liberation or something. When it's an excuse for irresponsible behavior created by a mass cultural delusion created by bad modern and social ideals then I agree its murder. But do I know that what is inside of the whom is an actually human being with a soul? No, I really don't so I'm still trying to find an excuse for that response. As far as stem cell research, the pharm companies do worst things, same with NASA who force animal into space as slaves. I don’t think a money really makes choice like you or I. You can't also regulate everything but can complain about it.

Edwin1974

07/29/2004 09:46:57 PM

:So what if he’s for abortion and stem cell research? There are more meaningful thing we could be taking about like the state of public services: More meaningful than mass murder and the manufacture of human life for experimental purposes? You don't think these things affect everyone?

anarchy

07/29/2004 09:18:25 PM

I actually like John Kerry allot because he is a real religious man who is living in the real world. He is not someone who is a bible thumper or wears his religion on his sleeve. He is a truly moderate/liberal individual with a deep religious faith. I doubt he would think that his getting into office was some kind of prophecy nor do I think that he would fester up excuses to force religiously based initiatives onto people. So what if he’s for abortion and stem cell research? There are more meaningful thing we could be taking about like the state of public services and the sate of the American economy rather then lucid claptrap discussing about social issues that does not affect every single person, in a large sense. Anyways, this man is the real deal. I hope people vote for whomever they want to vote for but I do hope Kerry and Edwards either win or make them be heard.

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