'Bill, Jews Are Not the Enemy'

Donohue's anti-Semitic reference to 'secular Jews who control Hollywood' prevents Christians and Jews from working together.

jolesley

01/07/2005 10:06:07 PM

Bravo, Milwdreamer, I believe you said it right. Watsy, as I understand you have read or heard what the lady said did she say that the Jewish people killed Jesus

Cathmatt

01/02/2005 08:37:25 PM

After reading the exchange between Bill Donohue and Rabbi Boteach I have these following thoughts: For those that wish to say that Jews wish to crucify Christ again, Rabbi Boteach gave them the ammunition by quoting Luke 13:31 which has nothing to do with the Passion, to "educate" Christians that it was the Pharisees who saved Jesus! Not to mention his glossover of the opinions of those who loved the Passion.

antiochusepiphanes

12/29/2004 12:53:55 PM

I think there are plenty of folks who dont have a voice, usually, who agree with Donohue, but are afraid of the usual chorus of Jewish wailing of antisemitism etc. There is a Polish proverb, "the Jew cries out in pain as he strikes you"

antiochusepiphanes

12/29/2004 12:27:01 PM

Donohue's comments I thought were a little too moderate, such as pretending that secular Jews are different from religious ones. Religious ones hold the tribe together for secular Jews, secular Jews make money for the religious. It's cooperative. All pretty well explained in Dershovitz book "Vanishing Jew."

eastcoastlady

12/29/2004 10:01:51 AM

dear milwdreamer... Wow. I'm moved. Thank you for your heartfelt plea for people to act in a more humane, accepting, truly G-dly way. Sanctimony is no good no matter where it comes from. Neither is evangelism or finger pointing. You clearly have G-d in your heart.

milwdreamer

12/28/2004 05:48:24 PM

As a devout catholic I would like to add that I am sick of holier than thou christians blaming the Jewish eople for the crucifixtion of Jesus. That was a rumor started when the early Christains began to ally themselves with Rome. Anyone interested in the truth should read John Shelby SPon's book on the Gospels which he points out fact by fact that the gospels were actually written arounf the Jewish liturgical calender. I'm sorry but I am so sick of human beings using religion to spread hate and fear and intolerance. I have this feeling that God whomever he or she is is probably shking their head looking down on us all going "they really will never learn" Mr Bill Donahoe is lucky I'm just a devout catholic and not the pope cause I'd be ex-comunicating his butt forthwith..As it stands I will pray for him....I know my faith is never threatened by anyone else's faith....peace/shalome

ChanieQ

12/27/2004 01:25:25 PM

We've learned this lesson in 1930's Germany, and 19th Century Russia. We learned this lesson in 1492 in Spain, in 16th Century Poland, and many other locations and time-periods...Jews are not accepted in the Christian world, and are not part from it. But, as we learn in WWII Europe, those Jews who lived in Shtetls, setting themselves apart survived, while those who lived in Cosmopolitan Germany, believing themselves to be just like their non-Jewish "bretheren" perished. Jews are different; we eat differently, (in some cases) dress differently, pray differently, and should be prod to be different! How many other religions can have those who identify as culturally a part of the group, espousing many of the very same ideals (however deeply ingrained) as their more religiously observant kinsman!

watsy

12/27/2004 11:40:28 AM

Yairben Avraham, You said that beautifully! That is exactly what a democracy and our Constitution is all about. When the will of the majority starts to oppress the will of the minority, and that will is based on religion, we then have a theocracy. I still think that Rabbi Boteach should apologize to Jennifer Giroux for calling her an "ignorant peasant." I read the interview. She didn't deserve that.

YairbenAvraham

12/27/2004 10:19:42 AM

Reb Shmuley points out that many Christians suggest Jews shouldn't complain about government endorsements of Christian symbols because we are a democracy, and the majority (Christians in the U.S.) rules. But that is not completely true. We are a democracy, but we are also a republic, which means our democracy is centered on a Constitution. The Constitution's purpose is to make sure that ALL Americans share the same rights. As much as democracy is about the will of the people, our Constitution does not allow the will of the majority to oppress the rights of the minority. Thus, just because Christianity is the most widely followed religion in this country Christians do not have the right to enforce their beliefs, practices, or holidays on anyone else. And the government that is owned by every American can not support one religion over any other. A government that does so is a theocracy, not a democracy.

clyde5001

12/27/2004 09:07:49 AM

I'm sorry, but I'm a Reform Jew and I have never noticed the Rabbi spreading hate,

citizen_kyle

12/27/2004 03:43:23 AM

For so long this Rabbi has spewed his hate and allied himself with the evangelicals, I find it satisfying that he is now experiencing the same hatred from his "friends". If only the evangelicals could turn against themsevles, the fight against bigotry, homophobia, and yes anti-semetism would be over.

themarirev

12/26/2004 11:21:34 PM

LivingEZ123 I agree. In some ways Christianity can become its own worst enemy. Rev

NightLad

12/26/2004 08:38:29 PM

Imdancing; I knew what Kabbalah was in a general sense from my various spiritual readings, but I did not know any of its specifics. A few years ago when this whole Hollywood “its-cool-to-practice Kabbalah” started up I did a little more research. One of the best FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) web pages I found can be viewed here: Kabbalah FAQ You might be interested to take a look, since your earlier comment was riddled with inaccuracy. I’m sure it is not your intention to seem ignorant by making faulty statements. Be Blessed and have a Happy New Year. :)

LivingEZ123

12/26/2004 05:35:53 PM

The best way to present the case for separation of Church and State is to point out that everyone is entitled to express their religious beliefs in the non-governmental sphere. Christians own their homes, churches and schools. This is where the nativity and celebration of their faith belongs. All Americans in a sense “own our government”. No American should be affronted by his own government imposing someone else’s religion. America belongs to us all.

windbender

12/25/2004 10:44:15 PM

SquirleyWurley - "without being extremely judgmental, without assuming the worst or that people cannot change" A generous caviate, friend. Reflective of level-headed reason and responsible opitmism. Well put. It's exactly how I get around people I love saying "nigger", or calling me "Jew-Boy." You can't help an enemy see reason - with a friend, there's always a chance.

SquirleyWurley

12/25/2004 04:23:13 PM

Bill Donohue, Jennifer giroux, Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, and Edgar Steele, are simply promoters, excusers, and agents of... EVIL. The sooner that religious and irreligious alike, whether Christian or Jewish or Atheist, or Pagan, whatever, get the clarity to say that this is compliticy in EVIL, the better. Without assuming that everyone who is complicit in evil is hopeless or personally malevolent, without being extremely judgmental, without assuming the worst or that people cannot change, we still nonetheless have to be CLEAR in our moral condemnations of such people.

RickLee

12/25/2004 04:16:25 PM

As Eric Hoffer pointed out, fanatics like Donohue while professing religious motivations really need a devil. A Faith which holds that it and only it knows the Truth and that salvation can exist only by Belief needs a devil to hate in order to stay enthused. Now that Communists are gone, the religious right is short on hate objects. Hence, secular Jews and Gays have become the new Devils for the fanatics in Christian America just like they did for the Faith of Nazism in Germany of the 1930's. The wonderful thing about FAITH is that is persists despite all proof that the belief is false. In fact in a FAITH, one is accorded status if he can hold as true a blief which is obviously B---S---. If right wing Christianity did not provide frame work to hate for its fanatics, the Donohues would create a new religion, like the Nazis did in 1930's Germany.

windbender

12/25/2004 11:30:14 AM

jschli260 - I hadn't thought about it that way before. I suspect you're pretty much on the mark, friend. Sort of like looking at the Nobel Prizes and complaining that Jews control medicine and science isn't it? Get an education and use it - become an elitist bastard.

jschli260

12/25/2004 08:14:48 AM

I don't think that Christians hate Jews, I think that they really don't understand Jews. That is the problem itself. To say that "Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism." Is almost a remark that would have been said in the 1939. But, as a Jew in the Army I do see a lot miss understanding, and loss of respect for Judaism by Christians. A Jew cannot live in a Christian country and expect there to be a peaceful coexistance, it just won't happen. Everything that this country does and is based on goes against most Jewish thought. But as Jews we adapt to our surroundings, and overcome. Successfull Jews in Hollywood are just that, successfull, it takes someone who wasn't to say so.

Solamente_Fe

12/24/2004 11:41:24 PM

Anyone who claims to be a Christian should read Philip Yancey's What's So Amazing About Grace? As a Christian, Donohue's comment makes me wince. The general public's view of evangelical Christians is tainted enough without his ignorant comments.

windbender

12/24/2004 11:34:09 PM

I'm still having trouble with part of this. I can see Donohue swallowing the popular myth about Jews having it in for fundamentalist Christianity. Lord knows, evangelicals make us nervous as a cat on a hot stove. Anybody with any real reasoning ability knows that we don't need them to go away, we just want them to leave us in peace (which means quit telling us we'er going to burn in hell every five minutes). But why would he think Catholics are a special high-value target? Guilt maybe? Doesn't make sense to me. Any ideas out there?

Beliefnet_Tiger

12/24/2004 10:06:02 PM

And now - back to the Donohue debate... Thank you! Beliefnet_Tiger Community Monitor

millefleurs

12/24/2004 02:44:57 PM

Religious Jews on TV: Toby on The West Wing... but his ex-wife is not Jewish. Also, they seem to have scaled him back a bit religiously the past few years.

imdancin

12/24/2004 02:30:27 PM

Hollywood, I think is now governed by the new newly improved new age religion......Kaballah. :)

windbender

12/24/2004 08:45:58 AM

lamB7 - Watch the Hebrew Hammer. He's Orthodox! On a more serious note, though - you're right. You don't see regular, observant Jews as fixtures on television. But, certainly, the reason for this is no great mystery to you, or anybody else (not that the goyim spend much time actively thinking about such things). Consider the lambasting Jane Fonda takes - or Tom Hayden took - or Ken DeLay's well deserved roasting. Would anyone consider mentioning faith or ethnicity in connection with their actions? But the Jew bankers, Jew moviemakers, Jew doctors and so-forth are always a topic. And, even if they aren't religious, they are still Jewish what-evers. They are "secular" (meaning openly G-dless and immoral) JEWS! They the ones who openly worship money, power and fame, aren't they?

windbender

12/24/2004 08:31:23 AM

Let me try that again- Barring government intervention(quotas, tariffs and censorship come to mind), control of what comes out of an industry lies with those (stockholders and propietors)who own it.

windbender

12/24/2004 08:27:39 AM

With respect to the train of thought pointing at "secular Jewish" control of Hollywood: Barring government intervention(quotas. tariffs and censorship come to mind), control of what come out of an industry lies with those who own (stockholders and propietors)it. The religion or ethnicity of the Marketing Director or CEO is a moot point. This is like saying that Jews control comedy, or that negros are running the NBA (with the help of secular tall guys, of course).

greling

12/23/2004 11:39:27 AM

Hollywood does what Hollywood does--make violent, sexy movies that people from Red states as well as Blue states line up to see. The equation would not change if the demographic running Hollywood were politically conservative whites--capitalism has a way of overriding moral considerations. I agree somewhat--But, It's neither capitalism or communism that leads to moral decline. It's merely human greed and callous selfishness, and that can be obtained in either system. When the motive for industry is profit or production and there is little concern for the welfare of the general population, moral decline is oft the result. But, I don't know if it's the movies that cause the moral decline or it it's simply our declining culture that causes the movies. Aferall, people in foriegn countries watch the same flicks we do, only with more sex and nudity and less violence.

greling

12/23/2004 11:37:05 AM

The problem that I have with Greling's position is that it centers on who "controls" Hollywood (or Alabama or D.C. or wherever). But "control" is a code-word that the Religious Right and their assorted ilk well understand. Yes. It's similar to how they use the words "agenda" and "lifestyle" to describe gays, and the words "lazy" and "entitlement" to describe poor urban blacks whose ancestors liberated themselves with ZERO help or reparations from the U.S. government. "Control" suggests that if it were "us" rather than "them" that manipulated the levers of power, the world would be a better place. Good point indeed. It's not so much that don't want to see Jews "controlling" everything. It's rather that they want to control things themselves. It's the imposition of a double-standard, and it's the very hypocrisy their Jesus Christ spoke out against.

IamB7

12/23/2004 10:40:47 AM

I agree with everything Rabbi Shmuley says in this case (I often don't), however he also misses a critical point. SECULAR Jews (key word: secular) do have far too much influence in Hollywood. How do we know that? For starters, 99% of Jews portrayed on television are portrayed as being married to or romantically involved with gentiles, while in real life that number is only around 50%. It astounds me that more traditional Jews (such as myself) don't speak out about this in outrage. I was thrilled when Jewish Grace from "Will and Grace" married another Jew, only to see them get divorced. Not to mention the fact that Grace's SECULARNESS is constantly emphasized on the show--with her frequent references to how much she loves bacon and shrimp--at one point gentile Will even comments that he's more Jewish than she is. I defy anyone to find one regular Jewish character on any TV show of the last 5 years who isn't secular.

windbender

12/23/2004 10:36:25 AM

Escuse me: ...that, now, no "good" Christian would espouse...

windbender

12/23/2004 10:35:35 AM

No apology necessary, merrik01. As you so aptly point out, it was the same with many other things in the past that, now, "good" Christian would consider espousing as appropriate. It's much like the age-old bigorty against many other things (gays come to mind). This too will change in time - so long as we don't pretend it isn't there.

merrik01

12/23/2004 06:37:09 AM

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize for the "evangelical" or conservative wing of my faith. If they're making you nervous, they've made me nervous all my life. Not a small number of these folks were the "good christians" that screamed racial slurs and promoted violance towards my people as we worked to promote a balanced society in the 60s. This return to moralisn has nothing to do with returning to G-d, but everything to do with returning our society back to a pre-1960 era. Sadly these folks never bothered to realize that Jesus was Jewish or that the first Christians were Jews. I suspect that it's about to become socially acceptable again to bash other folks based on religion, race, ethnicity, or gender prefernce. I hope and pray that more Christians in this country understand that what will strenghen this country is acceptance, not condemnation of any other religion.

trulyalarmed

12/22/2004 05:42:15 PM

the entire transcript was an exercise in controlling my anger. i imagine these "moral" conservatives confined to a hell designed like a sound stage with all of the insulted stereotypes they maligne punishing them. it's what they deserve. this was eyeopening and pat bucannan's "they love you," boteach's "thank you, i love you too," bucannan's, "no they love you," boteache's "oh, you don't love me?" bucannans "no, i have to. i‘m taught that way" was priceless. the quintissential christian response. i have to love you, it's a requirement, if it weren't a requirement.....

rbethell

12/22/2004 04:57:38 PM

Having read the transcript, I am now more sympathetic to Rabbi Boteach about his interaction with Ms. Giroux. As intemperate as he might have been, her comments about "Hawaiians" well... what can I say?

ninewands

12/22/2004 03:19:45 PM

wyote; I don't fear Falwell's Fascist Fantasy ... nice alliteration, if I might say such ... my fear is Pat Robertson, the terrorist, Ralph Reed, the theocrat, and Tim LaHaye, , the Dominionist, will get their way. I am especially afraid of the Dominionists, whom even Fallwell calls "scary."

eastcoastlady

12/22/2004 12:26:02 PM

You know, windbender, that pun was unintended - "run into walking" - LOL Good health and happy times to you!

eastcoastlady

12/22/2004 12:25:01 PM

Wind, Will do. I've not run into walking either in the last several days. To be honest, I was trying to take somewhat of a break from the blogs, for various reasons. People like you and walking, jacknky and some others bring me back.

windbender

12/22/2004 11:55:22 AM

eastcoastlady - You are too kind. Health and happiness to you and yours, dear. I trust the New Year will bring us all closer together. If you happen to run into walkingthebible, please wish her the same as well. I haven't seen her in more than a week.

eastcoastlady

12/22/2004 08:43:01 AM

windbender, Have I ever told you you're my hero?

themarirev

12/22/2004 12:09:17 AM

windbender, Yet again I find myself in agreement with you. I find it horribly hypocritical that the same Christians who feel they should have a right to promote their brand of theocracy on public property would be the first to deny the same right to Wiccans who who want to post their beleifs in a courthouse or deny Satanic prayer in school. Their rhetoric of "Freedom of Religion" is hogwash. However I must point out, through my extensive research, I have found use of the name "Christian" is the only thing that make this country "80% Christian. The huge amount of denominations in this country prove beyond a shoadow of doubt that not all CHristians are the same and I have discovered many who call themselves "Christian" because they beleive in the ministry of Christ however not necessarily Christainty. They feel there is no other "title" they can give themselves, so the formation of another denomination occurs. Indeed, many who claim this title never set foot in a church, if only for high holy days. Cont...

themarirev

12/22/2004 12:08:25 AM

Cont... Therefore I question the validity of the declaration of the 80% showing in polls. We must remember there as never been poll that encompasses all of America and indeed polls are (for the most part) make up less then 1% of the population. The sum of the polls is nothing more then the multiplication of the actual results. So the reality of the religious diversity in this country is far greater then this over used percentage indicates. Mere belief or membership in a church may make one a Christian by a fundementalists definiton to use for their own validity of patriotic self rightousness. However my research shows me too vast a difference of belief to hold that "80%" under the same umbrella of belief. Rev

windbender

12/21/2004 10:53:41 PM

So, in a nation where this is true and with such blind acceptance of the absurd, can we be surprised that conservative talk show hosts pander to this kind of self-serving delusion? Disappointed maybe, appauled certainly, but not surprised.

windbender

12/21/2004 10:50:43 PM

Judge Moore lives in a country where every hotel room in the nation has a book with the Ten Commandments in it. There are churches on virtually every other street corner in any direction you look in most major cities and the smallest community almost always has at least two. There are multiple copies of the Ten Commandments in every last one of them and in damned near every home in America. Still, he would assert that G-d Almighty Himself needed one more parked in the foyer of the Justice Center where he held court and that failing to allow that threatened the very fabric of Christian Society. And most fantasmagorical of it all, this putz and most of his supporters actually believe that.

windbender

12/21/2004 10:41:36 PM

The film industry exists to make money, as does every other enterprise. They make what sells. That having been said, some of their work is spun out to suit a narrow group of folks who appreciate it. Crouching Tiger is an example. Life is Beautiful is an example. The Passion is an example. If Jews wanted to get together and finance a film about the horrors of the Inquisition and detail the lengths to which the Catholic Church wemt to destroy Judaism, they could certainly do so, but who would want to watch it? It wouldn't serve the bleeding body of Christ image of themselves that these folks hold so dear.

windbender

12/21/2004 10:34:32 PM

The ability of the majority Christian Community to paint itself as the victim. Let me start over. While Christianity represents the majority faith in this country, the religious right has succeded in convincing itself that it is the victim of a pervasive liberal and therefore disproportionately Jewish media agenda hell bent on ripping any icon of their faith from public view or social presence. This is, of course, absurd. But it's much like the Earth as the center of the universe - believed as a matter doctrine, rather than evidence.

wyote

12/21/2004 10:20:32 PM

Obviously Boteach and Donahoe are talking about two different things: Donahoe about Hollywood's agenda and Boteach about American culture. In Boteach's mind they may amount to the same thing, but that's just in his mind. On Bill's point: I don't know who controls Hollywood. I'd be surprised if it's not simply the almost almighty dollar. On Shuley's point: The inability of evangelical Christians to tolerate not-evangelicals, and their growing aggressiveness, are signs of an ugly future. Within my lifetime, evangelical Christians are likely to win the culture war, which means we will live under a Taliban style theocracy. Shmuley is right to be afraid. Unless you like the idea of living in Falwell's fascist fantasy, you should be afraid too.

Matityahu

12/21/2004 08:44:18 PM

clyde, windbender a better question to ask is why did Boteach even bother going on a right-wing tv show hosted by Buchanan, an unapologetic anti-Semite, having Donohue, an idiot, as a guest? I think some in the Orthodox community maybe be getting a bit TOO conservative...

ajstone

12/21/2004 08:37:19 PM

"they think EVERYBODY that doesn't believe in Jesus is gonna fry. It's not because I'm Jewish - it's because I'm not a Christian." Fair enough. But what we are talking about is the specific association that wingnuts are making between declining morals in this country and the "control" of Hollywood by Jews. And I'm simply arguing that this association is badly flawed. Simply because Jews may (or may not) be in "control" of Hollywood has little to do with what Hollywood churns out. Take Mel Gibson--ostensibly a white Catholic-esque male--who managed to frame the crucifixion of Jesus in undeniably Hollywood terms--blood, violence, and Satan depicted as a stereotypical femme fatale. Nothing in the Gospels paints a picture remotely as gory as the "Texas Chainsaw Passion" provides. Lesson being, give wingnuts the proper resources and they will produce the same kind of dreck that they accuse secularists of producing.

clyde5001

12/21/2004 08:35:55 PM

Matt, That's OK - Robertson has said some doozies, so it wouldn't matter too much!

clyde5001

12/21/2004 08:35:13 PM

Because they resent our arrogance for not, after 2,000 years, accepting our own savior. And they feel we are still crucifying him by not accepting him. Read "A Moral Reckoning" by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, which skewers the RCC for its conduct during the Holocaust. Don't you know Bill Donohue tried to slander the hell out of Goldhagen to keep "Saint" Pius XII from criticism.

Matityahu

12/21/2004 08:33:41 PM

Clyde. oops. That should have been Pat BUCHANAN, the Holocause denier or whatever he is. but not much of a difference

Matityahu

12/21/2004 08:31:47 PM

windbender "I know Christians who think I'm going to burn in hell forever because I don't believe in Jesus. That's not anti-Semitic - they think EVERYBODY that doesn't believe in Jesus is gonna fry. It's not because I'm Jewish - it's because I'm not a Christian." but don't you think that they do take a SPECIAL interest in the Jews? of course they're wondering why the people who were "supposed" to receive Jesus ended up "stumbling". Of course you are right. These Christians think all non-Christians and every Christian who doesn't believe the way they do (talk about picky!) is going to hell. But it IS true that they take a special interest in the Jews more than any other religious or non-religious group, simply because of who we are.

clyde5001

12/21/2004 08:31:26 PM

I missed something - what did Pat Robertson say?

Matityahu

12/21/2004 08:29:18 PM

windbender Yeh. Shmuley is just simply part of a segment of Orthodox who are politcally the exact same as the religious right Christians except they're Jewish. They too want to impose morality on the nation. So it would have been better if a different rabbi were on hte show and made the complaint about Donohue.

windbender

12/21/2004 08:25:50 PM

Matityahu - I read them. I won't argue with you about this schmuck. Shmuley, though, was not in the lane with "ignorant peasants." Shameful. And out of the mouth of a rabbi, no less.

windbender

12/21/2004 08:23:17 PM

Any criticism of Jews is not seen as anti-Semitic any more than criticism of Israeli policy is. Much of it is ill informed, but that doesn't mean its bias is racial or ethnic. I know Christians who think I'm going to burn in hell forever because I don't believe in Jesus. That's not anti-Semitic - they think EVERYBODY that doesn't believe in Jesus is gonna fry. It's not because I'm Jewish - it's because I'm not a Christian. To be clear, not all Christians are taught to swallow that crap. s

Matityahu

12/21/2004 08:20:28 PM

everyone has stated how simply opposing something about Jewry or saying something that may be a fact or a substantiated opinion is NOT anti-Semitism. I DO agree. of course But in this SPECIFIC case, after actually READING the debate, and the actual WORDS that were said by Donohue and Pat Robertson, how can you deny that they ARE anti-Semites?

Matityahu

12/21/2004 08:19:53 PM

"By way of example, take a look at FOX News (arguably the most pro-right wing media group operating in the United States today) and FOX television (which has produced some of the most family un-friendly television in recent memory). So, back to Greling's larger point, it is irrelevant whether Jews "control" Hollywood. Such a focus gives cover to those who, unlike Greling, have an insidious interest in linking the number of Jews in LA to the perceived moral decline of this country. " in other words, entertainment producers have in mind not really imposing a belief system, but MAKING MONEY. the diversity of the programming is just proof that there is no "control" by secular Jews, or if there is, it means they have absolutely no interest in killing Christianity.

windbender

12/21/2004 08:19:07 PM

Folks, when I see greling having to explain the majority black population of D.C. being responsible for the City's operation via elected officials, I have to wonder what grade we're all in here.

windbender

12/21/2004 08:17:21 PM

ajstone - Did I just witness an Olympic broadjump, or what?

ajstone

12/21/2004 07:18:48 PM

(2 of 2) By way of example, take a look at FOX News (arguably the most pro-right wing media group operating in the United States today) and FOX television (which has produced some of the most family un-friendly television in recent memory). So, back to Greling's larger point, it is irrelevant whether Jews "control" Hollywood. Such a focus gives cover to those who, unlike Greling, have an insidious interest in linking the number of Jews in LA to the perceived moral decline of this country.

ajstone

12/21/2004 07:18:27 PM

(1 of 1) The problem that I have with Greling's position is that it centers on who "controls" Hollywood (or Alabama or D.C. or wherever). But "control" is a code-word that the Religious Right and their assorted ilk well understand. "Control" suggests that if it were "us" rather than "them" that manipulated the levers of power, the world would be a better place. As I see it, however, it is irrelevent whether Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, or Martians "control" Hollywood. Hollywood does what Hollywood does--make violent, sexy movies that people from Red states as well as Blue states line up to see. The equation would not change if the demographic running Hollywood were politically conservative whites--capitalism has a way of overriding moral considerations.

greling

12/21/2004 06:53:01 PM

CONTROL is still a strong and possible exaggerated word. dont you think? It's not as strong as "occupy". That, I think, is quite a strong word.

Matityahu

12/21/2004 06:32:34 PM

"The area is not LA we're talking about; it's the City of Hollywood. And it's not population that counts in Hollwood. Money talks. " Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there is no City of Hollywood. It's a district of Los Angeles (city). in any case, do you really think that Jews are a majority of the RESIDENTIAL POPULARION is Jewish "And it's not population that counts in Hollwood. Money talks. " which includes the rich Gentiles who live there, right? "However, my point was that the observation that one or more groups "control" any industry or geographic region is not necessarily a bad thing." ok then. "No one would doubt that people of East Asian descent control things there. It's not bad, just the truth. " CONTROL is still a strong and possible exaggerated word. dont you think?

greling

12/21/2004 06:23:25 PM

(2) do Jews constitute a majority of hte population in LA? you might be confused here The area is not LA we're talking about; it's the City of Hollywood. And it's not population that counts in Hollwood. Money talks.

greling

12/21/2004 06:19:44 PM

To some extent I understand the swift reaction many Jews have when they hear some Christian fundamentalist alleging or pointing out that they "control" something. I'm sure in their minds it conjures up images of WWII, Nazi Germany, and America's grossly anti-Semitic days, when Jews were blamed for capitalism in Eastern Europe, Communism in the Western part of the globe, and the overall decline of society. However, there's no longer a plot by U.S. Government officials to deport Jews and we no longer see a Holocaust in Germany. The conditions are different, but the fear is still there.

greling

12/21/2004 06:14:41 PM

is it the same? no. LA Jews don't try to force our beliefs on others (hmmm... maybe you're getting wrong ideas from the Chabad telethon). That's different then fundies in the South. Ok. Maybe not "the same", but similar. Only, the agendas are different. LA Jews are more for tolerance, understanding, and cooperation. Fundie zealots in Alabama are to some extent for the opposite. However, my point was that the observation that one or more groups "control" any industry or geographic region is not necessarily a bad thing. Have you been to Rowland Heights or Walnut? No one would doubt that people of East Asian descent control things there. It's not bad, just the truth.

greling

12/21/2004 06:10:13 PM

right. a large chunk of these liberal Jews additionally belong to the liberal organizations you list in your profile, such as my parents in the ACLU. so I don't see how the liberalism is a BAD thing. do you? I never said liberalism was bad thing. In fact, I'm quite liberal myself. I only said that I find Boteach to be a little bit politically correct for an Orthodox Jewish commentator. It bugs me when people say that criticizing anything about Jews is "anti-Semitic". These people are similar to the crowd that says that criticizing Condoleeza Rice is "racist" simply because she's black. People play the race card to score points and I find it a boring and cheap shot. I think Bill Donohue is a bozo and out of his mind, but I don't think his pointing out that Jews exercise a lot of control of Hollywood to be out of line. I find it honest, but a bit out of place.

greling

12/21/2004 06:05:25 PM

And I don't know why you think that Washington DC is "controlled" by blacks. Do a lot live there? Yes. But you should watch it before you say someone "controls" something. A 98% voter turn-out for Kerry and decades worth of Democratic victories is self-explanatory.

Matityahu

12/21/2004 05:59:28 PM

"If your population and voice consistute a majority of the population, then you're in control. Period." (1) wrong. its not that simple. (2) do Jews constitute a majority of hte population in LA? you might be confused here "He's already written several articles decrying any criticism of Jews whatsoever as anti-semitic. " maybe you missed the point of these articles

Matityahu

12/21/2004 05:59:21 PM

"but they're mostly liberal. Kerry got a huge chuck of his campaign dollars from them." right. a large chunk of these liberal Jews additionally belong to the liberal organizations you list in your profile, such as my parents in the ACLU. so I don't see how the liberalism is a BAD thing. do you? "It's the same way that Alabama and South Carolina are largely controlled by conservative Christian whites and most of Washington, DC (except the capitol) is controlled by blacks." is it the same? no. LA Jews don't try to force our beliefs on others (hmmm... maybe you're getting wrong ideas from the Chabad telethon). That's different then fundies in the South. And I don't know why you think that Washington DC is "controlled" by blacks. Do a lot live there? Yes. But you should watch it before you say someone "controls" something.

Matityahu

12/21/2004 05:56:39 PM

greling "To say these things is not anti-semitic. It's a nere truthful observation." but to use them to imply things that aren't true in order to try to support a fundmemantalist theology, the way Donahue and Roberstson and Falwell and you name it do, IS anti-Semitic. "I live in the LA area, and I can assure you that it's not a far cry from reality." well I actually am a Jew who lives in LA, so =

mrmissy

12/21/2004 05:53:41 PM

"Hollywood is largely 'controlled' by secular Jews, but they're mostly liberal.." So what does this say about Ronald and Nancy Reagan, Arnold Schwartzenegger? Is Mel Gibson a liberal? "... and most of Washington, DC (except the capitol) is controlled by blacks."----Really? When did this happen? Blacks have CONTROL of Washington, DC OUTSIDE of the Capitol? Did you tell ANYONE that EXCEPT yourself? Maybe you should inform Rumsfeld? Or Homeland Security? The White House? Or MAYBE THE PRESS? Those Blacks must be having a JOLLY old time controlling the most GUARDED city on the EASTERN SEABOARD. I mean, the very SEAT OF POWER. ..and the press is ALWAYS reporting how very depraeved and deprived THOSE BLACKS ARE. Say! Aren't most of them in PRISON like the show COPS portrays them to be? Next thing you know a MEXICAN will be taking over Ashcroft's old job.....OOPS!

greling

12/21/2004 05:14:33 PM

Hollywood is largely 'controlled' by secular Jews, but they're mostly liberal. Kerry got a huge chuck of his campaign dollars from them. To say these things is not anti-semitic. It's a nere truthful observation. I live in the LA area, and I can assure you that it's not a far cry from reality. It's the same way that Alabama and South Carolina are largely controlled by conservative Christian whites and most of Washington, DC (except the capitol) is controlled by blacks. If your population and voice consistute a majority of the population, then you're in control. Period. Boteach is just getting poltically correct again. He's already written several articles decrying any criticism of Jews whatsoever as anti-semitic.

sage1967

12/21/2004 04:59:49 PM

It will be a challenge to every American (who values religious liberty, tolerance, and who recognizes that ‘democracy”, and “secular”, must coincide), to resist this assault on our liberty, and American values.

sage1967

12/21/2004 04:59:41 PM

Mr. Boteach’s column emphasizes a reality we face in the United States today – religious fanaticism. That bigotry and religious extremism can exist in the “freest country in the world” may be shocking to some, but I see the evidence everywhere. The evangelical movement in this country mirrors the same religious fanaticism that’s alive and well in the Middle East today. The question I’d like to pose though is, when will organized religion mature? When will organized religion evolve, yes, evolve to the point where it truly seeks a moral high ground, and moves beyond this NONSENSE of, “My god is the only true god. “Believe in my god, or get out of the country”, as that meathead Bill O’Reilly essentially stated. Like the Taliban of the Middle East, which seeks to indoctrinate radical Islam into the very fabric of society, the Taliban of the West (the evangelical movement within the United States), clearly has this same objective.

maplewood

12/21/2004 04:00:10 PM

The NY Daily News journalist, Jimmy Breslin, believes Mr. Donohue is a fraud. I.e., that he represents no one but a tiny handful of people, based upon what Breslin has observed. Donohue's large presence in the media is way out of sync relative to his tiny influence in the larger Catholic community.

Carolus

12/21/2004 03:34:42 PM

I must agree with the good Rabbi.Cloaked in the Evangelical's defense of Israel lies the horrid notion that, since Jews aren't evangelical christians, that they will be briquettes for the fires of hell. Passive-agressive anti-semitism.

windbender

12/21/2004 02:40:29 PM

And to expound slightly on themarirev's post - all the claims in the aftermath that the actions of the radicals within the faith had not been truly representative of the faith itself are small consolation to the victims.

themarirev

12/21/2004 02:14:06 PM

While the good Rabbi and I disagree on many subjects, on this subject I am in complete agreement. The arrogance and vainty level of many Christians has been greatly elevated since the Bush re-election. They want to claim America as their Isreal. Evangelists tend to inclusify all Christians under their brand of Christainity and this just isn't so. I agree with the Rabbi that it is past time for Christians to stand up for themselves and quit allowing radical evangelicals to inclusify all Christians in their slanderous rhetoric. There is no getting around the fact that Jesus was a Jew and never began a new religion. Jews are by no means the only culture that fears Christians. Cont...

themarirev

12/21/2004 02:13:25 PM

Cont...Christainity has a long documented history of atroscities perpatrated to put across their theological ideology "in the name of God." Hypocrisy is prevelant in more the just Christianity and has nothing to do with the religon of choice, but the choices we as individuals make. My fear is my loved ones or I being caught in the crossfire as this war of religion gains energy. Boteach is no more an angel then Jerry Fawell or Pat Robertson. Both make their contributions to the war, even as accomodating as the Rabbi wishes to appear. It seems the bloody battles of the past have no taught them nothing about love or tolerance for their fellow man. It seems to beleive in a loving God is not good enough to these, but others belief in them and their theology is parimount. Rev

Matityahu

12/21/2004 01:08:56 PM

ninewands Yeah. The rabbi who happened to be on the show just happened to be a "religious right consevative" Jew who likewise thinks "secularism" is the enemy. But you could take any 'liberal' Democrat rabbi or Jew who would agree with what you just said and he could articulate the argument against Donahue as good or better. but you're right. Boteach seems to be a "fundamentalist Christian", jsut a Jewish version of it.

ninewands

12/21/2004 01:04:52 PM

Give those voices in the Jewish community who have championed the cause of Christian-Jewish brotherhood some proof that the real enemy of Judaism in the United States is not Christianity but secularism. Come ON Rebbe ... get real. The primary defenders of Judaism in America are the secularists. Don't you understand what Dominionist Christians are really seeking? Donohue, Falwell, Buchanan, Robertson and their ilki want to make America a true "Christian Nation" rather than a mere Christian-majority nation. Then, after they establish orthodox Trinitarian Christianity as the "Official Religion Of The United States Of America," the we can have the fun of inquisitions, book-burnings and witch trials again.

windbender

12/21/2004 12:29:23 PM

It seems to me that Jews who simply want to be left to practice their faith have reasonable cause for concern when faced with a society which, by and large, either regards them as somehow different, or outwright WRONG, in the practice of that faith. That Christians see a reluctance to accept, support and adopt their faith and its ongoing effort at prostelytizing others as anti-Christian are way off the mark. It is the readiness to lable those who do not accept Christianity as its evil opponents that lead to most of the horrors committed in the name of the Church (often the State) in past centuries. Do we really want to repeat that?

Shirah

12/21/2004 10:24:46 AM

There was a time when the Hollywood studio system was still in place when many of the owners of major studios were Jewish. They were not so much religious or secular Jews as they were Jews who were worried about their Jewishness and were desperately trying to assimilate. They produced movies like Cecil B. DeMille's, The Ten Commandments, Miracle On 34th Street, Ben Hur, and It's A Wonderful Life. None of these movies are anti-Christian that I can see.

eastcoastlady

12/21/2004 10:11:31 AM

w"hat is so hard it seem media removing christ so much in christmas. But the jews have monrah, but we can have baby jesus" I don't understand what you are trying to say here. BTW, nobody wants to remove Jesus from Christmas, no one I know of. If your point is to say that Christians are being told how and how not to celebrate Christmas, I must disagree wholeheartedly. The point is not to force that celebration/method of observing a religious holiday on those who don't celebrate it. I love to look at lights and decorations on my neighbors' houses, for instance, and none of my neighbors have complained that they are not allowed to observe in their homes, their churches, etc. Please explain your point.

mrmissy

12/21/2004 10:10:33 AM

Hate, hate....and double hate! Yes, hate is the answer! It FEELS so good! If Hollywood is run by Jews, why do the rest of us make them rich, quote their movies, and send our children generation after generation to the "movies"? Can it be that the "JEWS" ARE US? Sloppy thinking.

Shirah

12/21/2004 10:10:26 AM

I have no problem admitting that I hated The Passion. It does not make me anti-Christian or that I hate Catholics. Just because I am liberal does not mean that I am secular or not religious.

Shirah

12/21/2004 10:04:09 AM

I am sorry that I have to repeat myself, but Hollywood is controlled by multi-national corporations like Sony, etc. I am a liberal, but religious Jew. I do not hate the Catholic church. The modern post Vatican II church has been very progressive in its attitude towards Jews. The Catholic church has done more than many Protestant denominations to come to terms with its past treatment of Jews and to set a new course in the relationship between Catholics and Jews in the future. The Catholic church has given up trying to convert Jews. I do have a serious problem with the conservative Catholics like Mel Gibson and who don't believe in Vatican II. It seems to me that they are more anti-Catholic than any Jews I have ever met.

eastcoastlady

12/21/2004 10:01:52 AM

"Captain Ecumenicalism.." This was tooooo funny!!

clyde5001

12/21/2004 09:56:49 AM

For 1,800 years, “His blood be on us and our children and the rest of the Passion narratives were used to incite violence against us. Why shouldn’t we be frightened by Mel’s movie?

rbethell

12/21/2004 08:48:09 AM

Bunsinspace: I certainly don't buy into nutty Jewish/Hollywood conspiracy theories, but I also think it bears pointing out that I don't think that anyone in Hollywood could have stopped "The Passion" even if he or she had made a concerted effort. It has been pointed out that Mel Gibson did a complete end-run around the entertainment establishment, producing the film entirely with his own money, and distributing the film through a for-hire firm outside the studio distribution channels.

slate

12/21/2004 07:40:21 AM

I agree with those who say Boteach and Donohue are really not too far apart. Both are shallow. And Donohue is definitely antisemitic. I am sure he tries not to be, but you can see it in his expressions.

bunsinspace

12/21/2004 07:11:26 AM

BS"D The brainlessness of th atypical antisemite is illustrated by the fact that had the libellous ravings any substance, the Passion would not have been permitted to be produced. If, as alleged by antisemitic jerks, Hollywood was controlled by Christianophobic secular Jews, the Passion wouldn;t have even seen the light of day. It is typical of the ravings of antisemitic jerks that they blame others for what they do themselves, and tout impossibilities as if they were fact. Assuming %99.9999999 of all of Hollywood was comprised of secular Jews (a numerical impossibility itself), it would still be impossible for them to be christianophobic as Hollywood has produced an enormous quantity of works upholding christian values. Had it not, it would not have survived till this day.

bunsinspace

12/21/2004 07:05:45 AM

BS"D Donohue's libel against the jews is typical of the ravings of an antisemitic jerk. It makes all catholics who listen into antisemitic jerks. Antisemitic jerks defend their antisemitism pointing to non-related events. Regardless of the religion, a jerk is a jerk.

rbethell

12/21/2004 06:27:25 AM

You know, Donohue should have just apologized without qualification right away. Catholics like myself increasingly depend on his voice - at a time when the only depiction of church officials in movies is as consirators in gothic horror movies, he reminded us this was not our only face. And he's lost his voice with this. But at the same time, Boteach's adamant refusal to see any religious value in "The Passion" - despite the fact that the Stations of the Cross line every Catholic church in the western world - showed me sadly that Rabbi Boteach isn't exactly Captain Ecumenicalism either. With that film, he had an opportunity to be diplomatic and constructive, and he chose instead to barely veil his contempt for the faith of others.

Graius

12/21/2004 04:45:31 AM

a satanist opposes G-d. An atheist just doesn't believe in him.

Norm_uk

12/21/2004 04:18:19 AM

Arunma: "Atheists oppose God, whether they are Jewish or not." To oppose something you first need to acknowledge it's existence, which Atheists do not.

arunma

12/21/2004 03:05:56 AM

It's unfortunate that just as we Christians are getting Jews to trust us, some of us have to descend back into anti-semitism. I agree that atheists need to be kept under control, but what is the relevance of the fact that Hollywood atheists are Jews? Atheists oppose God, whether they are Jewish or not. I doubt that religious Jews appreciate the actions of their secular counterparts anymore than we Christians do. Perhaps we Christians need to stop blaming all Jews for the sins of atheists who happen to be Jewish.

mightymountaingorilla

12/21/2004 12:46:19 AM

Okay, I agree with most of the Rabbi's statements. However... If the shoe fits... Face it, most of hollywood is controlled by Jews--from top to bottom. I'm not saying that it's bad. What I am saying is bad is the constant berating (by many prominently Jewish members of Hollywood) of a movie like "Passion of the Christ" which is an expression of someone's faith. The way they behaved was prejudiced because they believed it would portray them as "Christ-killers." However, everyone needs to accept art as being tough and angry at times. It's not meant to be censored...and that's what many people in Hollywood were trying to do. Once again, there is nothing wrong with Jewish people controlling Hollywood. What is wrong is denying the fact that there was some sense of censorship by a demographic that's primarily Jewish.

American_anglican

12/20/2004 11:08:13 PM

what is so hard it seem media removing christ so much in christmas. But the jews have monrah, but we can have baby jesus

Capacious

12/20/2004 11:01:33 PM

"the real enemy of Judaism in the United States is not Christianity but secularism" Ahh, there we go. Let us all join hands, Jews and Christians, brothers and sisters, and come together to condemn and despise the evil secularists! Yes, this should indeed be the one true thing we can all agree on ;) Is it just me or does it seem Rabbi Boteach and Donohue are not so far apart after all?

jkevinm

12/20/2004 08:37:34 PM

Rabbi, I am a confirmed Episcopal Liberal, and believe that the Moral Majority is neither. I disagree with a lot of Bill Donohue's opinions are, at best, dangerous, and I frequently feel the same about yours. But if Bill Donohue is an Anti-Semite I'm a giraffe. The one thing he has always been is willing to openly listen, discuss, and argue his positions. Anti-Semites seldom are so forthcoming. I think he has a valid point, and in listening to the broadcast, ( I like to listen and not watch, it allows me to see more.) I think his point was that the secular community in Hollywood, which as a point of fact is predominantly 'Jewish' from the standpoint of ancestry, is at best irrelegious, and worst, anti-christian and anti-catholic. I am not sure I agree, but I certainly understand how anyone looking at the atmosphere and environment in Hollywood, could derive that opinion.

ChristianPilgrim

12/20/2004 08:19:21 PM

So its bad to accuse Hollywood of being controlled by secular Jews, but okay to accuse the Republican party of being controlled by fundamentalist Christians? I think a very interesting standard of politically-correct hypocrisy is emerging in America.

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