The Same General Boykin?

The Pentagon official, an evangelical, was nearly fired for insulting Islam. So far, conservative Christians stand by him.

ScottAln

05/27/2004 10:59:12 PM

True Islam=True Christianity? OK, mlove. Since you want to look at fruit and seem to care particularly about PEACE makers, start by Googling on "life of Mohammed" and compare with Christ's. Please POST what you find. Christianity is infinitely different from ALL religions and self-improvement schemes. The central message of ALL OTHER religions is human effort can bring redemption. By contrast, the central message of Christianity is we ALL need a savior. Without Christ our best fruit is filth. "Sinner" does not describe what we do (that is, merely "fruit") but what we are, our very nature. We must repent and accept Christ's perfect life and death on the cross as payment for our sins. This is what the Bible (not the media) says. Christ was either a madman or the Son of God. See John 15:1-2 and 15:16 on how we must bear fruit through Christ; Matt 3:7-10 on necessity of repentance; and how Luke 13:6-9 agrees with you that those who do not bear fruit (thru Christ) will go "somewhere else."

ScottAln

05/27/2004 10:00:02 PM

We all have rules for school, work, etc. and expect them to be clear and enforced. Otherwise people start to improvise or "push the envelope." Same principle applies to areas like police or military work, with consequences that are obviously more serious. If soldiers violated clear rules then they should be punished. If they followed orders, or rules were not clear, then higher-ups should answer. The hard truth is it is impossible for U.S. to please every interest group. And even then, if the rules are not clearly published and enforced, they are useless. Realize this: the military DID take action because its own rules were violated, not to please you, nor IRC, etc. Bottom line is reasonable people disagree about rules all the time. What are the rules YOU live with, when would you report a co-worker, student, etc.? You have my prayers (sincerely) as you wrestle with these issues for the rest of your lives.

mlove

05/26/2004 05:22:34 PM

ScotAln, There are no differences between true Islam and true Christianity, no difference whatsoever. Both faiths central message is to turn away from sin and turn towards YHWH. The differences that are propagated by the media are fabrications of those who have no clue about what it means to live a life pleasing to YHWH. As Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit. A rotten tree will produce rotten fruit, just as a good tree will produce good fruit. Also Jesus said that it was the PEACE makers that would inherit the earth, not the WAR mongers, their place will be somewhere else. mlove

mlove

05/26/2004 05:14:37 PM

ScottAln, If it wasn't for the Inter'l Red Cross and a few in the military that witnessed the abuse, the abuse would not have been investigated. The FIRST time the Red Cross informed the commanders in Iraq about the abuse, the commanders response was to limit the Red Cross's access. They only reacted when it became apparent that the abuse would be revealed to the outside world. True christian values have been absent from the beginning of this ill-advised adventure. If the TRUE purpose of the US occupation of Iraq was liberation, they would have never invaded in the first place. They would have lifted the sanctions that have effectively enslaved that population for over a decade. mlove

denisemac

05/26/2004 04:20:21 PM

you know what I can not believe that they have started prosecuting those guards without a full investigation. If they were following orders how can they be held to blame? Our system is sucks with this case. Until they prove where it came from they have no right to conduct such trials. They are only trying to cover their own asses.

ScottAln

05/24/2004 08:02:34 PM

The U.S. military is prosecuting the guards and will do the same with the leaders. It started the prosecution on its own. It will complete it according to our standards. The difference is that we prosecute those who torture, we do not promote them as was done before America helped Iraq. Hey, it's easy to be a critic. Don't let the "perfect" (that is, whatever vision you hold as perfection) be the enemy of the "good" (that is, things are better now, than they were before).

mohammed.mussulman

05/24/2004 02:56:38 PM

Then, if you're feeling ambitious, you can sue the people who have given you the right to complain without being thrown in the plastic chipper. Well, I guess being beaten within an inch of your life and stripped and humiliated is better than being chipped any day.

YahyaBergum

05/24/2004 02:45:13 PM

My guess is that by nailing the very worst of Nick Berg's killers to a tree (if Allah wills) Iraqis would assure harsher penalties for U.S. military personnel convicted of abusing Iraqis. A mutual denial of mercy might potentially go a long ways in discouraging mischief throughout the land (God willing).

ScottAln

05/24/2004 12:07:26 PM

In most countries where U.S. troops are stationed, there are treaties which give the U.S. the right to decide whether the host country can prosecute. This is normal, whether you're in Europe, Japan, Korea, Turkey, etc. and now Iraq. If you're looking for justice, look in the scrap bin from the plastic chipper that the Baathists used on inmates at Abu Ghraib. Prosecuting the Baathists will take a while. Then, if you're feeling ambitious, you can sue the people who have given you the right to complain without being thrown in the plastic chipper.

mohammed.mussulman

05/23/2004 07:20:52 PM

Iraqis lose right to sue troops over war crimes

ScottAln

05/23/2004 05:00:07 PM

Agreed. I reject those who call these actions "Christian" or that the people who committed them are "Christians." This is, as you say, blasphemy. I also agree that those responsible for oversight (that is, the military officers in Iraq) should be held accountable. They either condoned these actions or were negligent in supervising the actions of their soldiers. Many people want to exploit this scandal to indict Christianity and the war. Sadly, we have police/guard scandals all the time under politicans/administrations of all parties, you may have the best policies but if they are not publicized and enforced, they are useless. The military was already taking action on this matter. Let the trials proceed and the facts emerge. There is a rush to judgment here that smells of anti-Christian bigotry.

LairdsChapel

05/23/2004 04:31:27 PM

meant "no knowledge"

LairdsChapel

05/23/2004 04:30:25 PM

Yes, and we would have the duty to condemn the appropriation of our name as people of faith have the duty to condemn the torture scandal. Also, under the doctrine of "respondeat superior" ("let the master answer") those responsible for oversight of the military need to be held to answer for the scandal. If such a one claims they had know knowledge of it they are admitting to a lack of oversight, you really cannot have it both ways.

ScottAln

05/23/2004 03:54:25 PM

Really? So if I torture someone and then claim I did it in the name of "Laird's Chapel" then it was genuinely done in your name? Fascinating.

LairdsChapel

05/23/2004 03:43:51 PM

This scandal cannot be ducked by semantics. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is most likely a duck. If it is proclaimed by anyone to be torture in the name of Jesus, then it is torture in the name of Jesus which is not only a violation of international law, but is blasphemy. It should not be appeased. May God have mercy. Lairds' Chapel

ScottAln

05/23/2004 03:33:07 PM

So you're saying that the abusers were Christians? What makes you think this is true?

LairdsChapel

05/23/2004 03:31:15 PM

Again it would be nice if some "people of the book" took The Geneva Convention as literally as they do their "book." Lairds' Chapel

ScottAln

05/23/2004 03:20:34 PM

For what?

LairdsChapel

05/23/2004 03:01:34 PM

So why hasn't he been fired now?

ScottAln

05/23/2004 11:04:44 AM

It's easy to judge any philosophy by its abuse. Let's say that Mr. Sheikh is telling the truth. Someone tortured him to thank Jesus. Similar/worse things happened during the Crusades and many other occasions. Was this torture truly Christian? If you define "Christian" as those who live by the Scripture, the answer is "no." There is not a single text in OT or NT that justifies this. This action is not Christian. The torturers are not Christians. Why do "they" hate us? Support for Israel was cited by Bin Laden, along with U.S. presence in the "holy land" by Bin Laden as a pretext for 9-11. But truly there could be many reasons. How do fundamentalist muslims feel about women's rights, adultery, or homosexuality, as portrayed in American movies/TV/magazines, etc.? Who offends muslims more, a Christians living by Scripture (sometimes called "People of the Book" by muslims) or non-Christian America? Think about it.

YahyaBergum

05/23/2004 01:02:38 AM

Ameen Saeed al-Sheikh says that he was tortured and ordered to denounce Islam. Mr Sheikh says that his leg was broken when one of the soldiers started hitting it and ordering him to curse Islam. "They ordered me to thank Jesus that I'm alive," he says. Perhaps that might be the reason "they" hate us. That and General Boykin's assertion (ladies and gentlemen) that "we're a Christian nation."

ScottAln

05/22/2004 10:54:04 PM

Regarding whether Boykin-ism (that is, conservative Christians in the military) caused the abuse scandal, it defies common sense to think that conservative Christians would want women around naked men. Think, folks. Motives? Could be jollies/revenge/under orders/etc. Secular humanism is likely source. Focusing on Boykin's comment about Islam, let's reverse the equation. Most muslims would agree that Christianity differs from Islam, to the point where converts are ostracized and can even (tho rarely) be put on trial & executed. I point this out because it's easy to say Boykin is a bigot, just be even-handed. What makes Boykin different is that he is a public servant and is accountable to Americans. He flirted with the line between private & public speech. More on Christianity vs. Islam in a future post.

amilius

05/22/2004 12:57:05 PM

I believe that the problem of inconsistency starts with saying one believes in one god and then announces that you sees two. All division of Source is imagined. One Graciously Organized Design allows the General his division of the two so that he might fight in the name of One. We are all One. Why then are we fighting with ourselves other than to remind us of the consequences of empowering this small minded man to demonstrate his arrogance and war crimes? Might we remember to respond to the warning signs of arrogance and choose accordingly in the upcoming elections? One hopes so.

thefish

05/22/2004 11:18:00 AM

fromoz... Right on...I'm so glad to see you posting again...that is precisely why the door is NARROW...being tuly loving is the hardest thing in this world to do when the majority don't see love the way we do... Peace, my friend... <

YahyaBergum

05/21/2004 08:58:35 PM

Well, the scandal would certainly seem to weaken the policy against permitting homosexuals to serve in the military – unless perhaps the Pentagon has a policy of only using contractors for that sort of thing. Maybe America's warriors would actually be less concerned about maintaining their fighting spirit than they would be about getting groped by a queer CO. (Personally, I think that all sexual harassment should be discouraged.)

newmexico1

05/21/2004 07:28:27 PM

In investigating this story, I uncoverd another scandal closer to home. Apparently, an Albuquerque Christian media-hound made the Slate website for an piece elsewhere that blamed the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal on...gays. This, if it turns into a local scandal, wouldn't be the first time his anti-gay bigotry made the news. News flash, it's Secretary Rumsfeld that is responsible for the scandal, as "chatterbox" pointed out. Of course, in the Bush administration, being responsible and even "taking responsiblity" doesn't seem to mean being held accountable.

YahyaBergum

05/21/2004 06:58:04 PM

So, has General Boykin been spotted pointing at anything – in those Abu Ghraib photos? No! No! I mean like a demonic presence – that sort of thing!

fromoz

05/21/2004 05:07:09 PM

Jesus would quite often end his teachings with "Let those with ears hear" - meaning that his teachings wouldn't be understood by all. An eye for an eye is much easier than turning the other cheek - and perhaps that's why the door to salvation is so narrow?

newmexico1

05/21/2004 04:29:11 PM

As a liberal, I do hold that no institution is above criticism. Bigotry goes beyond that. It denies a central core of identity. The General essentially said that Islamics didn't worship God. That is denial of identity. "My God is bigger than his God. I knew my God was a real God, and his was an idol," Boykin said.' The worship of the one God is the core of Islamic identity. Pat Robertson, for instance, echos that. Islamics worship the Moon god because the symbol of Islam is the crescent moon with a star. http://www.cbn.com/700club/askpat/BIO_040203.asp This is witless bigotry, not criticism. Islam doesn't have a symbol. The crescent moon symbol is the ancient symbol of the Turks, and it's popularity in the Islamic world is probably due to the influence of the long lasting Byzantine Empire. Not to mention that, as a graphics illustrator, I'd be very proud to have come up with such a striking symbol.

ScottAln

05/21/2004 03:59:45 PM

normajean2: you're welcome. Best wishes on your study. The Bible is what it is. newmexico1: please define what you mean by "bigot." I'm not saying I agree with Boykin, nor know everything he said in context. All we get is "snippets" of what he said. But clearly Christianity and Islam are not identical. What would you say is a fair description of those differences?

newmexico1

05/21/2004 03:40:37 PM

"Yes, Boykin said some stupid things but if he's good at fighting terrorism, that's WAY WAY WAY more important than his verbal faux pas." His "verbal fauz pas" was sheer witless bigotry. It would be no surprise that a witless bigot was involved in the torture scandal. Since the torture scandal has obviously set back the campaign against terrorism, and encourages the torture of captured Americans in an eye for an eye justification, I'd say Gen. Boykin is way way way incompetent.

normajean2

05/21/2004 03:38:45 PM

I agree fromoz, that is why I need to see these verses for myself. Who knows, I may read them differntly than others but I trust the spirit that dwells in all of us to guide me.

normajean2

05/21/2004 03:36:52 PM

thanks so much Scott, I have written them down and will study them once I get home.

fromoz

05/21/2004 03:31:46 PM

Although he was perhaps sometimes far from being spiritual in his own life - Jesus emphasised spirituality over worldliness. And placing spirituality over worldliness is the reason the Bible doesn't condemn slavery. If one emphasis spirituality in their lives they will be able to live in the most appalling conditions. I believe Jesus means for us to turn the other cheek. It's passivity that allows followers to connect spiritually - while fighting back or vengeance would force people back into worldliness. It's perhaps an extreme view and one that most people are unable to follow. But in part Jesus demonstrated turning the other cheek when he went to the cross - and he also taught that the door to salvation is narrow and that people could not follow him unless they took up his cross - that surely includes turning the other cheek?

ScottAln

05/21/2004 03:31:00 PM

Jesus denounces scribes and pharisees - Mark 12:38-40, Luke 11:37, Luke 47:37, Matthew 23:1-26. Christ laments over Jerusalem - Luke 19:41-8 & Matthew 23:37. God's judgment on Man's love for darkness - Romans 1:18-2:16. Stepping back from Scripture, God has clearly allowed evil to occur. He has done so of necessity, for in giving Man free will we must have a choice. Adam & Eve made that choice, which we inherited, but Christ paid the price of that evil for those who accept His payment for their sin. But God is not the author of evil. Punishment is carried out at His command in OT and the NT promises eternal punishment at the Judgment. The God of the Bible is not Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Some cannot accept this God. Still, we all long for both justice & mercy. See how Romans 1:18-22 addresses this issue.

normajean2

05/21/2004 03:14:21 PM

Thank you scottaln for answering my question. May I pose another? When you say that there are many examples of God having enough, does any of this happen New Testament and if so can you give me some verses to study. Thanks

ScottAln

05/21/2004 02:56:34 PM

Exodus 21:22 describes all sorts of just punishments/payments, "eye for an eye" being one example. Christ does not deny that this is just, but asks for more from a Christian. Just as he suffered and to forgive and pay for our sins, he asks Christians to suffer and forgive the sins of others. But this does not deny that a price must be paid. Thus the need for our Lord's willing death. But he paid only for those who would accept it. So realize that while we can forgive, we are not called to be masochists and seek out abuse or tolerate it indefinitely. The hope is the abuser's conscience will be pricked, but this is not always so and there are many examples in the Bible of God having "enough" and giving people over permanently to their sin, beyond forgiveness.

normajean2

05/21/2004 02:32:07 PM

denisemac: please do not mistake my querry for anything but, but didnt' Jesus say "you have heard it said that an eye for an eye but I say if a man stricks you on your left check turn to him the other" or something to that affect. Is this not Jesus changing the old testament?

denisemac

05/21/2004 11:22:32 AM

max: I don't know who you are talking to but without the OT you wouldnt know what the NT was about plus Jesus said he did not come to change but to fulfil. If it isn't in the OT it doesn't belong in the NT. It is you who needs to know the OT.

maxx113087

05/21/2004 07:50:56 AM

I love it when people try to pin Old Testament verses on Christianity without realizing Jesus changed the very concept of much of the Old Testament. You'll never be any good at attacking Christianity when you can't understand it.

thefish

05/20/2004 11:26:08 PM

I feel ya...we're practically on the same page... Peace and Love to ya... <

denisemac

05/20/2004 07:23:56 PM

thefish: what a great way to look at it. It is the stories of how we are determined to solve our problems on our own thinking we know what is good. But we do need to stop and look in the mirror as you say of ourselves also.

thefish

05/20/2004 06:08:57 PM

I just had an intersting thought after what you just said...Denise...the Bible isn't a book to help show us how to live our lives...the Bible is like a MIRROR...to show us how very bad we ARE...but we can change that image when people see it that way...kinda like what you're saying... Like I used to not like the image in the mirror I was looking at (I'm talking physical here, as a metaphor) so I changed it. I lost 35 lbs. and counting and I go for a walk EVERY morning and I feel great about looking in the mirror now... Peace <

denisemac

05/20/2004 05:47:33 PM

fromoz: You have no idea how you are truly blessed. You do not know it but your words speak as Jesus of those who speak about peace but know it not. You are a good soldier indeed. I know you think the bible is wrong but you have no idea how much it really does go with what you are saying. Someday you will understand this.

comcon

05/20/2004 05:03:51 PM

i certainly wouldn't argue that a christian by definition would act more humanely. there's plenty of evidence contrary to that. but i do think we cant assume that because he's a devout Christian that therefore he'd be MORE likely to treat muslim prisoners badly

fromoz

05/20/2004 02:39:45 PM

comcon You mean like King David cut the tendons on hundreds of horses and left them to die in agony? The Bible is full of atrocities committed by followers of the Christian's god towards those considered to be the ememy. With those examples to follow what should the world expect from a Christian country? 2Chronicles 15:13 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

comcon

05/20/2004 01:37:16 PM

Yes, Boykin said some stupid things but if he's good at fighting terrorism, that's WAY WAY WAY more important than his verbal faux pas. It's also equally possible that his being a devout Christian would have made him treat prisoners MORE humanely

indy11

05/20/2004 10:38:33 AM

Our nation has become captives of the the southern Bible belt extreme right wing evangelicals. The South now controls enough of a majority of electoral college votes to maintain power over the rest of the nation for a long time. Boykin and our military our examples and results of this power. Bush and his global desires are another. It's hideous what damage these people are capable of doing to Christianity and what atrocities they are doing in the name of Jesus. Jesus was about love. His words were "love your brother, love your enemy"

PrickliestPear

05/20/2004 03:58:39 AM

"My God is bigger than his God." How rich. I think it's funny that James Dobson thinks the fact that Boykin's "words were consistent with mainstream evangelical beliefs," is a defense of Boykin and not, in fact, a frank admission of the bloodthirsty character of "mainstream evangelical beliefs." To the many reasonable, clear-thinking, unbigoted Americans who have to share a country with these people: you have my sympathies.

LairdsChapel

05/20/2004 03:18:25 AM

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Samuel Langhorn Clemens, aka "Mark Twain" (1835-1910)

MELVINDBARNES

05/19/2004 10:45:54 PM

The words of Gen. Boykin is so similar to a speech made by Joseph Goebbels relating to the so-called Jewish Problem in Germany. Bible-thumpers and other fundamentalists of most religions have always used the name of God to excuse their activities. Our military has adopted the German-style helmet, so how long before we adopt the goose-step to go along with our present tactics in Iraq?

sinsonte

05/19/2004 06:34:46 PM

Don't forget, the crusades were largely disasterous for Christian Europe.

fromoz

05/19/2004 06:07:23 PM

Reports in my country this morning of forty people in a wedding party massacred by US troops. Among the dead were ten women and fifteen children. Doesn't that sound more like a Crusade than "liberation" and "winning hearts and minds"?

zann

05/19/2004 04:56:26 PM

fromoz, Bush used the word "Crusade" in the early post-9/11 days to describe the response to terrorism that he would begin. He was quickly informed of the overtones of the word, and has been very careful to not use it anymore. In all honesty, I don't think he meant it in a religious way, but rather as a "fervent endeavor".

fromoz

05/19/2004 04:34:54 PM

Didn't President Bush call the invasion of Iraq a "Crusade"

SquirleyWurley

05/19/2004 04:08:56 PM

sinsonte, that was very insightful. Personally, I believe it is possible to see clairvoyantly, and I don't expect someone to label what they see in terms other than those from their own religious/cultural background. The lack of discretion is one of the major issues, it seems to me. The State Department is trying to have diplomatic relations with all kinds of countries, and officials of the government shouldn't act so irresponsibly. But alongside that, the invitation of lots of ministers to areas where civilians aren't allowed, to show them weapons and headquarters, etc., indicated an unholy alliance between church and state, in a militant way. And the general's promotion of a Christian militancy could be seen by some as a conflict of interest, a compromise to his character and a serious question as to his fitness to serve. He certainly shouldn't be general.

Ishraq

05/19/2004 04:08:33 PM

Walaikum as-salam Yahya Bergum, Yes the Quran does state that the Injeel which was revealed to Jesus is the word of God, so is the Taurat for Moses and so is the Quran for Muhammed (peace be with them all). However, from a secular point one needs to question these texts in order to determine whether something is truly from God or not, you are talking from an Islamic perspective, which may create a bias (I to have similar biases)... I feel when studying religious texts one must be objective and take everything into account...

YahyaBergum

05/19/2004 03:52:08 PM

Salaam, Ishraq. You asked (so here is my view). Quran 4:171 seems to lend support to the position that the son of Mary (upon whom be peace) is the living word of God. Christ's actual words (prior to his reported murder) could therefore be understood to be God's word. There could logically be some mistakes in the words of the well guided, in other parts of the New Testament – but with respect to Christ's words, questions might be more properly concerned with the authenticity and accuracy of the text itself. Evidently, the four Canonical Gospels were considered sufficiently accurate – say not, "Three!" "Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein." (Quran 5:47)

Ishraq

05/19/2004 03:50:55 PM

sinsonte writes:"What about self-appointed prophets who can't keep their mouth shut." Well we have on in the white house bush said "I believe God wants me to be president"... there are tons of quotes like this...

sinsonte

05/19/2004 03:41:26 PM

The issue is not how much questioning can one do and be faithful to one's god. The issue is Gen. Boykin's lack of good conduct and discretion. He has every right to believe what he believes, but the president said on several occasions that this was not a war between Christianity and Islam. While in uniform, Boykin contradicted him and in the process fueled the anti-American propoganda machine. Thought gays in the military were a problem? What about self-appointed prophets who can't keep their mouth shut. What we need is a new "don't ask, don't tell" policy -- for religious fanatics.

fromoz

05/19/2004 03:25:56 PM

Ishraq I apologise for spelling your name incorrectly.

Ishraq

05/19/2004 03:11:29 PM

I agree with jontemplar, the vast majority of religions on this planet allow it's followers to analyze and question the texts... I mean how can you tell if something is the TRUTH, until you have proven that it can't be false...

normajean2

05/19/2004 03:09:26 PM

It appears to me sfcanet that you think God took pen in hand and wrote out a manual and threw it down for you to pick up. In reality men, MEN, like those here today were inspired to write these things. I may be inspired by Leonardo to paint but I can never paint like him. I prefer to listen the ONE SUPREME BEING, who abides in us all than to your narrow view point, though I won't deny you that view point.

jontemplar

05/19/2004 03:05:03 PM

The Bible is full of men who questioned God, Noah, Lot, etc. Questioning God is not something that shouldn't be done. If anything the Bible shows us that a relationship is one in which communication exists. God didn't choose these ment because they would just accept something without reason, without question.

zann

05/19/2004 03:02:27 PM

sfcanet writes: "I think God has spoken very well and clearly to us ALL in the New Testament. It says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only way to God and eternal life: I am just one of many billions of people who believe just that." Your numbers are a bit off. The world population of Christians is approximately two billion. And many Christians read the passages about salvation differently than you. While agreeing that Christ is the only way to God, they believe that it means that it is God's call as to who is saved. This God who tells us he has sheep not of this fold, and whose house has many mansions. These Christians believe that in applying a litmus test to salvation is ascribing human black-and-white thinking to the Lord. You believe in your Truth; that's fine. You may even turn out to be right. But you misrepresent many Christians by claiming to speak for all of them.

Ishraq

05/19/2004 03:02:12 PM

Fromoz, firstly my nick is "Ishraq" not "Ishrag" Secondly, there are some Christians who are blind followers, where they refuse to learn about other religions simply because other religions aren't the "TRUTH", with that being said early Christianity had a lot of philosophers and free thinkers and today there are still some free thinking Christians, so therefore I don't want to paint all Christians with the same brush....

fromoz

05/19/2004 02:52:29 PM

Ishrag wrote - "I mean if God didn't want us to question Him why then why give us the ability to reason" The Bible teaches - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart lend not to your own understanding, in all your ways ackknowledge him and he shall direct your path" It seems that the Christian's god does in fact require of his followers blind faith and ignorance?

Ishraq

05/19/2004 02:43:36 PM

Not to insult but sfcanet said: "I think God has spoken very well and clearly to us ALL in the New Testament." Well technically God didn't write (or spoke) the New Testament, God inspired the New Testament to the 4 gospels and apostle Paul... by all means please correct me if I am wrong…

Ishraq

05/19/2004 02:34:26 PM

sfcanet, Let me ask you something about what you wrote. Do you believe in the concept of logically questioning a persons' belief?? Is that a form of doubt? I mean if God didn't want us to question Him why then why give us the ability to reason. If you choose to blindly follow your doctrine then that is your choice, but the rest of us are on a journey to find the TRUTH, and how are we going to do that, by reasoning…

sfcanet

05/19/2004 02:31:33 PM

normajean2 I think God has spoken very well and clearly to us ALL in the New Testament. It says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only way to God and eternal life: I am just one of many billions of people who believe just that.

sfcanet

05/19/2004 02:16:28 PM

sinsonte, Doubt is not a valuable commodity in the kingdom of God. What you call fanatic (excuse me, what Russell calls...), I call fervency. Here is the differnce between a fanatic and a fervent, fundamentalist Christian: A fervent, fundamentalist Christian is filled and lead, on a consistent basis, by the Holy Spirit of God. Oh' you do not believe in the "born-again" experience, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? That's what "wise" doubting will get you.

chrysalis64

05/19/2004 01:55:35 PM

Sinsonte: I love that quote. Thank you! As a matter of fact I may use it as the "thought of the day" that I need to present in my Toastmasters meeting tomorrow. (Yeah, I'm always a rabble-rouser:) Peace!

soulvisitor

05/19/2004 01:45:39 PM

All very interesting . . . So,we're in the midst of Bush's Vietnam and Boykin's Holy War! I think being narrow-minded and taking on a heir of religious-supremacy is evil unto itself. Why is it so hard for these foot-washin' bible-thumpin, single-sighted idiots to see that there are many, many, many paths to God. Islam is not inherently evil, neither is christianity. It becomes evil and distorted when man imposes his will and motives upon religion, using doctrine as instrument to subjugate, separate and punish. Ignorance is dangerous, very, very, dangerous.

zann

05/19/2004 01:40:08 PM

from a Bnet discussion in March, by inlytened1: "Keep strong in your faith, even though it differs from my own. The world needs good hearted people of all religions. We seem to be the ones who always clean up the messes of our troublemakers. We need to be able to share our smiles by looking at each other's heart, not where we worship."

aliehope

05/19/2004 01:37:37 PM

Very well said, sinsonte and marirev (and if I misspelled either of your b-net names, my sincerest apologies). As I read the article, a quote from Julia Ward Howe came to mind: "The sword of murder is not the balance of Justice". I realized when I remembered that quote that it's up to us as persons of good will to make this world a safer place for all persons, period. Arguments over "who's right" (as the fundamentalists love to engage in) only sow seeds of discord and hate, which grow into the weeds of death and war, which choke out the life that all of us are called to give. I too am a "bunny-hugging liberal", and I believe that we all are responsible for each other's well being, a thought that Gen. Boykin et. al. do not seem to be willing to concede, esp. in the wake of the Abu Ghraib scandal.

normajean2

05/19/2004 01:32:53 PM

sfcanet, of course "your belief" is the truth, but only for you. Therein lies the problem, you think you can speak to me better than God.

sfcanet

05/19/2004 01:18:38 PM

normajean2 From what the New Testament says, and from my own conversion, and subsequent, spiritual experience, as subjective as it is, I must insist that my belief is the truth. That's what true faith is all about! From an Evangelical Christian standpoint, and from what the Holy Bible says, I would be doing you an eternal dis-service if I did not insist that what I am saying is the truth. I am ALL for free will and free choice, but that does not mean that I cannot insist that your free choice is wrong, while at the same, allow you to make the wrong choice if that's what you choose to do.

sinsonte

05/19/2004 01:18:36 PM

chrysalis64, You might like this quote from Bertrand Russell: "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."

chrysalis64

05/19/2004 01:12:30 PM

Marirev: Very well put. I didn't read yours until after I wrote my last post. I see we are on the same page. Fundamentalism is the true "evil" in the world. The true followers of God (in whatever form it takes) hopefully can put a stop to the madness before it is too late. As I said in my last post, people of peace, love and understanding ARE the true majority. The Fundamentalists are a dangerous minority.

chrysalis64

05/19/2004 01:07:40 PM

This world would be such a better place if there were no fundamentalists. (of any kind - Christian, Islamic, Israeli even Hindu.) So much killing and suffering in the name of God. The ironic thing is MOST faithful Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus are very peaceful loving people. It is the minority of fundamentalist nutcases on all sides who are causing all the strife and carnage.

LairdsChapel

05/19/2004 01:04:20 PM

It could be good if people of faith were to take The Geneva Convention as literally as they take their chosen scripture(s). Lairds' Chapel

themarirev

05/19/2004 12:54:55 PM

Well Folks are any of you now understanding that the wars of late are all a part of the Religious war that is gearing up for destruction of major percentages of humanity? This Generals message is we are better then you. Not surprisingly, the same thing the "insurgents" say about themselves. Both our country and those declared "Terrorists" take innocent lives and validate their murderous actions for "the cause." We call it "collateral damage." This Generals comments show covertly what Fundementalst Muslims are very open about. Fundementalist Christianity uses the Government as its cover for the attitude of "we are better." To be very clear, this is a war of fundementalism verus humanitarianism. Cont...

icthys

05/19/2004 12:54:41 PM

1.) The General should have followed military law when we spoke at a church. As I understand it, when he's in uniform he's representing the U.S. forces. I will agree that the media doesn't truly understand the concept of "Spiritual Warefare" through the eys of a Christian. Has nothing to do with pysical warefare. 2.) Will play the"wait and see" if he helped prompt the prison abuse scandel. If so, it's appaling. He and the others who took part would be no better than those who they fight who also dehumanize others.

themarirev

05/19/2004 12:54:16 PM

Cont... This is indeed a religious war going on that had to be expected as social globalization manifested. Fundementalism of all religions have been responsible for the deaths of millions over the centuries. Humanitarians are characterized as "bunny hugging liberals." As if looking for a harmonious existance with all humans is such a bad thing. It is time for non-fundemntalists from every religion get together to weed out the destructive and repressive fundementalists of all religions who continue in this new century to destroy, beat down and/or kill their detractors. It is absurd logic to think wars and opression are the way to honestly convert others, much less gain harmony. How many must be tortured and killed before fundementlism sees its own demise? Cont...

themarirev

05/19/2004 12:53:01 PM

Cont... While many would argue Jesus was not liberal, but conservative, I see Jesus promoting harmonious existance among all humanity and rather then trying to kill those fundementalists that disagreed, he suffered much and died on the cross asking forgiveness for everyone, including his detractors. The reality is this religious war is in its intial stages and many more will die before it sees its conclusion. As a "bunny-hugging liberal" I can only have faith that God will save us from the destructive powers of fundementalism and will show the fundementalist that murder, torture, repression and opression are not part of the path to salvation. Statements like those of the Generals' do as much damage as the pictures of prisioner abuse, even if it does not get as much media coverage here in America, it gets enough coverage in other countries. Buckle up folks, this is just the begining of a VERY bumpy ride over many years! Rev

sfcanet

05/19/2004 12:47:36 PM

Ishraq Just responding to the idea that General Boykin "insulted" Islam. If what General Boykin said is true, then it is not an insult, it is simply the spiritual truth of the matter. As much as this website interests me, I cannot spend any more time addressing another question at this time.

normajean2

05/19/2004 12:20:04 PM

and sunshine just to clarify, saying "most" christians is not really a blanket statement. Again if you'd like to see what I really said, reread my first post.

Ishraq

05/19/2004 12:18:50 PM

I am sorry sfcanet I don't seem to understand what exactly you are trying to say... Also let me ask you... do you worship God because of your fear of going to hell or do you worship because of your love for God... from your posts it seems like the former applies to you than the latter.

normajean2

05/19/2004 12:15:41 PM

sunshine, you called me out by name and I responded. My original message, if you'd like to reread it, didn't mention any poster by name.

normajean2

05/19/2004 12:15:03 PM

sfcanet: If you believe something but I don't, that is not an insult. What's insulting is to insist your belief is something everyone else should adhere to or else.

sunshine2777

05/19/2004 12:11:22 PM

norma, the last 2 times were addressed to myself, your first one was a general blanket address regarding christians and i responded. when you make a general statement regarding christians, sometimes you will get a response, especially if you are incorrect or are asking a rhetorical question. I have nothing to reconcile. I have already reconciled my sinfulness w/ Christ and accepted His gift of life. I have Christ and His peace in my heart and nothing you or this world says can take it away.

sfcanet

05/19/2004 12:11:08 PM

Who would want to perpetuate the idea that He did not? A: Look to the left of this post column, just to the left of "continued below", and just above "advertisement." P.S. Actually, I just wanted to correct my misspelling of the word, "perpetuate." I hope your day is great, and your eternity is devoid of fire and brimstone!

Ishraq

05/19/2004 12:06:55 PM

sfcant states: “Muslims insult Christianity everyday by teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ was not crucified”… Firstly, Muslims love and respect Jesus and his message. How can Muslims insult Christians when they love and respect Jesus? Using the difference in opinion of the crucifixion is not a way of insulting someone else’s religion. Muslims would never insult Jesus the way Christians insult Muhammad.

normajean2

05/19/2004 11:57:15 AM

first off sunshine, I never mentioned any posters by name but you seem to want to think I was talking to you. That appears to be something you should reconcile within yourself. peace

sfcanet

05/19/2004 11:52:05 AM

When Ms Caldwell, and all the liberal, or heathen people out there find out that the Holy Bible is true on the judgment day, they'll be saying, "that Ol' General Boykin was right!" Muslims insult Christianity everyday by teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ was not crucified, and that He did not rise from the dead. Now if the Lord Jesus Christ did conquer over death, hell, and the grave through the crucifixion and resurrection, as a means for the salvation of human's souls, who would want to peretuate the idea that He did not?

sunshine2777

05/19/2004 11:50:40 AM

norma: i was talking about the allegation that boykin did something wrong and had something to do w/ the atrocities in abu. that there needs to be evidence that he did something wrong, then if it is there, then he should be held accountable. i have no anger. I havent slammed anyone but stated truth from the perspective of someone who not only has the light of Jesus on them but has His spirit living in them. I dont just believe in Him but I have a personal relationship with Christ and I spoke from that perspective. You cant see the truth so I guess it is expected you would disagree and distort my words.

sinsonte

05/19/2004 11:49:58 AM

It amazes me that those who support the President and his debacle in Iraq would support Gen. Boykin. While in uniform, this man said that we were fighting a war between Christianity and Islam -- a direct contradiction of his Commander and Chief's own words. His words undermined the President and the troops and justified the Iraqis worst fears.

Ishraq

05/19/2004 11:40:06 AM

I could care less about what General Boykin says; obviously he has no knowledge on Islam and thus are making blind assumptions. I doubt he will resign, because it seems like the only thing bigger than his ignorance is his ego. Also I want to say that it is no surprise that the likes of Pat Robertson and the Christian Coalition are supporting this man. These are the same people who supported former dictator of Liberia Charles Taylor (who is wanted for crimes against humanity), simple because he is a Baptist Christian. I feel that these types of people are representatives of the Anti-Christ and not Christ himself.

normajean2

05/19/2004 11:20:17 AM

Yes sunshine, that is why I apologized. Do you read anything without anger already in your heart?

normajean2

05/19/2004 11:19:05 AM

Actually sunshine, his words are very public. If for no other reason than that you should be ashamed that he calls himself a christian. I pray Jesus shines His light upon you.

normajean2

05/19/2004 11:17:16 AM

Thank you for your words, dangerouschristian.

sunshine2777

05/19/2004 11:16:06 AM

"How can one claim to be a christian and in the same writing praise someone like Boykin and the like?" Norma: maybe because it HAS NOT been proven that he has done anything wrong yet. remember, innocent until PROVEN guilty??? I thought that is how it is supposed to go in this country. Horrible things happened at Abu. And the responsible parties should be held accountable. Things like that sicken christians too.. The thing you wont get is that if it does any damage to the cause of Christ, it is even more sickening and painful to us, than you could ever know. What hurts Jesus hurts our hearts too. By the way, your blanket statements dont help.

normajean2

05/19/2004 11:15:00 AM

To those christian's who truly love Jesus and try to do his bidding, let me apologize. What I should have said was I'm more afraid of the fundamentalit christian's and their thought process. I know for a fact their are true and loving christians, I've read alot of their words here, so again forgive me if I made that blanket statement.

johndavid23

05/19/2004 11:14:35 AM

People who claim to be christian while they act as forces of hatred and murder are inherently either stupid or liars. Christ taught love and denounced war and empire. These fascists who believe they can get away with anything to enhance their greed for power and world domination are worshipers of Mammon, as are the "conservative christians" who finance and support them. The Iraqi prisons are concentration camps for a 90% innocent population who Cheney/Bush&Co. is attempting to exterminate.

dangerouschristian

05/19/2004 11:11:32 AM

As a Christian, I am shocked! How can the Christian Coalition (and related groups) blindly support General Boykin? If we (as Christians) are going to do "God's work", we are called to justice and peace, not militarism and prejudice. And didn't Jesus say that his kingdom is "not of this world"? Boykin's remarks are nothing but anti-Christian, and slaps God in the face. Boykin (and his supporters) are descibed by God in the Bible as, "they praise me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me." May God have mercy on the USA! Blessings!

normajean2

05/19/2004 11:02:37 AM

Unfortunately catholicseeker, if you read the posts, the majority of those who claim to be christians are the ones who feel like nothing "horribly" wrong happened at Abu. I can't quite reconcile that, that those who claim either other religions or no religion at all are the one most angered by the abuses. How can one claim to be a christian and in the same writing praise someone like Boykin and the like? I'm not scared of the second coming of Jesus (if there is one) I'm scared of the christian's he's left behing until them.

con-oo

05/19/2004 10:56:02 AM

Boykin is telling the truth when he says the muslim faith is in a false god. Christians serve the one and only true God of the Bible.

catholicseeker

05/19/2004 10:07:15 AM

No surprise that fundy leaders are standing by Boykin. Bush hasn't the backbone to fire him, tho that's what needs to happen. What his rhetoric does, is to give legitimacy to Iraq when it claims we are crusaders. Just as our refusal to let Iraq and/or the UN take over, reveals our role as occupiers. I think history will show that Boykin and those who support him do not represent authentic Christianity.

Windsinger

05/19/2004 09:40:03 AM

I'm sure other non-Christians are as shocked as I am. which is to say not very.

usama

05/19/2004 09:35:10 AM

I don't mind Boykin having his own beliefs or interpretting his work through this beliefs. That is his right that Islam recognizes. But is Boykin manifesting his beliefs through his work and violating the rights of people, defying the standards of conduct of the Geneva Convention, summarily committing violence, suffering, and fear under the auspices of the DOD SAP: Project Green? Is that how his belief manifests- by assasinations, torture, kidnapping, and 'breaking' men's honor and dignity in the name of Jesus? Does he believe that the mere fact that he has been granted this authority by the US govt mean to him that Jesus has granted that authority?

prseeker

05/19/2004 09:33:24 AM

When conservative Christian leaders who confess an inerrant Bible point only to the law as what defines right behavior they reveal that they are not willing to be consistent biblically. Clear a literal understanding of the Sermon on the Mount precludes any Christian involvement in violent response to evil. Yet, they will explain that away with interpretative prinicples that mute Jesus words. No conservative Christian leader can be silent in the face of this torture. If so their silence is their own sentence on their integrity.

Martin.Bryant

05/19/2004 09:17:22 AM

Jerry Boykin has as much right as I do to speak before his selected house of worship. He does not have the right to wear the uniform of a United States Army general when he does it. This sends a clear message overseas that his statements are official statements and this is not appropriate. In diplomacy, image is part of reality. Combined with his entanglement in these awful abuse cases, President Bush and his fellow leaders must be able to find a way for this most likely talented military officer to serve his country and his God without endangering our foreign policy. In other words - he must assigned to a role where his words will not carry weight overseas and his scope will be domestic.

jacknky

05/19/2004 09:11:34 AM

Big red flag. There is every reason to fire General Boykin and none to keep him.

wildjoy

05/19/2004 08:59:22 AM

A lot of people are just so tired of hearing about that whole situation.....I think it's time to get over it. And that's what I'm hearing. Oh please! Is this the "Christian" response to torture?! And this woman is the spokeswoman for the "Christian Coalition"! I can't even begin to describe how much this appalling comment sickens and disgusts me. No wonder so many look at Christianity as a religion of hypocrisy. Lord, have mercy!!!!

eastcoastlady

05/19/2004 08:58:56 AM

Martin, gee, thanks! that was a very good post. I appreciate your supporting it with fact, not emotion.

WillSea

05/19/2004 08:51:03 AM

May Gen Boykin return from whence he came and ne'er show his face in uniform again. When a person is in uniform, he represents the government of the people, not a specific religious segment of that people. Not some, but ALL. When the actions of that person are counter to the greater good of that people as a whole, as his remarks and actions have been, he needs to be removed from that uniform. NOW! Removed from uniform, then conservatives can support the private citizen.

mcgill7983

05/19/2004 08:41:19 AM

May General Boykin be well, happy, peaceful. May no harm come to General Boykin May no difficulties come to General Boykin May General Boykin always meet with success. May General Boykin also have patience , courage, understanding, and determination to meet and overcome inevitable difficulties, problems, and failures in life.

saadaya

05/19/2004 08:36:05 AM

It upsets me to read about a "spiritual warfare" (if there can be such a thing) and "warriors of Christ". It sounds like certain people are using religion as an excuse to exert control, to legitimize the domination of a different culture, sounds like a superiority complex. There is nothing Christian about this ideological machination, the Romans exerted control in Judaea when Jesus was murdered and Jesus was in clear oppossition of Roman colonialism, and viewed it as obviously unethical and flawed. USA needs to leave Iraq, we have no business being there, this is immoral, there's no weapons of mass destruction, there's no Saddam. Leave a sovereign Iraq to the Iraqis, it's their land, they own it! Let's not start an endless cycle of violence like the Israeli one with Palestinians. We don't need that! We need peace and mutual respect. Selah.

BonnieVonnie

05/19/2004 08:35:21 AM

People from all faiths have killed in the name of God for millennia. We all tend to see from our own perspective and justify our beliefs and actions. Growth comes when we can see the world from another man’s perspective. No one man has all the answers. "Sinning" will stop when all men come to see how short they fall of the Creator's perfection. HE is God and we are not. The ACTS of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debaucher, idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like...But the FRUIT of the Holy Spirit is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, GOODNESS, FAITHFULNESS, GENTLENESS, AND SELF-CONTROL. Against these things there is no law...(Gal.5:19-23)

BonnieVonnie

05/19/2004 08:35:10 AM

Christians need to speak less and act more. Those who disclaim Christianity need to point fingers less and read more, do less looking to the followers of Christ and more to Christ Himself! Changing the world begins with changing oneself. We can grow toward His perfection and extend to others the same LOVE, FORGIVENESS, MERCY, and GRACE He extends to each of us.

Martin.Bryant

05/19/2004 07:46:21 AM

ValueAdder, be careful when bandying about "Christian Founding Fathers". The American founders were as free thinking in their faith for their time as they were free-thinking in their political philosophy. Thomas Jefferson, although he translated the gospels (without the miracles) he wrote of doubting Jesus' unique divinity. Benjamin Franklin almost never went to church, but supported several congregations for their good works including a synagogue. George Washington has been characterized a theist who also rarely attended church, and explicity defended the right of Jewish Synagogues and other non-Christians to practice their faiths. And, of course, Thomas Paine who wrote the call to arms -"Common Sense" also wrote "The Age of Reason" which called on people of his time to give up Christianity along with Monarchy as outdated ideas. America has benefitted from the leadership of wise Christians and is primarily populated by cultural Christians, but it is not a "Christian nation".

steppen0410e

05/19/2004 04:20:07 AM

One would hope that Boykin is simply an anachronism, someone born out of his time. His predisposition is more in keeping with medieval thinking and the time of the Crusades. It would be dreadful if there were more like him in the military of any superpower.

SquirleyWurley

05/19/2004 04:05:20 AM

It bothered me, that it seemed Welch was more concerned that Boykin would do something illegal, than that he may have encouraged te torture of people. If torture was 'legal' tomorrow it would still be the most heinous immoral and sinful thing one could ever do. In general there is so much implied moral relativism by conservatives then the issue is the use of torture or coersive interrogation... it is perverse. Pat Robertson's sentiment that the 'liberal media' overplayed the issue of torture is yet another indication of the evil, perverse, meanspirited, inhumane cultural tendency we are faced with in America, one that always finds a way to scapegoat liberals, even when liberals are rightly concerned about torture. Some people have not only thrown away any moral high ground or authority, but have become perverse and compromised their souls. This really is a fight for the soul of America.

al_assad

05/19/2004 03:01:50 AM

of course evangelical christians are standing by boykin, they preach hatred and death all the time. they want to kill all the muslims who will not except xtianity.

valueadder

05/19/2004 02:33:36 AM

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim. Think about the good things that you all enjoy such as hospital, modern democracy/freedom (that many people have misused to indulge ourselves), modern science, the Red Cross, equality of people regardless of ethnicity, gender & professional status, Mother Teresa's, and reverend Harvard University just to name a few. They all came from Christianity. Do you know that all US presidents since George Washington prayed the Oath of Office by putting their hands on the Bible and add the word "So Help Me God"? Many people around the world have come to take a bite of the peace & prosperity pioneered by Christian Founding Fathers.

valueadder

05/19/2004 02:28:54 AM

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim. The Holy Spirit of God indwelled Prophet David (he was de facto Christian), and yet he committed adultery & killed an innocent man. "All men fell short of the glory of God." Thus, General Boykin can be a Christian & yet committed sins. If criminals or prisoners just turned Christians, don't expect them to clean up their acts immediately while the Holy Spirit struggles clean up their secular drives with agape. All Christians sin. The difference is we entrust Jesus God in our heart to the best of our current capability & in the process unite the world into peace under the Prince of Peace, the Mighty God.

valueadder

05/19/2004 02:20:02 AM

In the name of Allah the Father, the Most Gracious Son, the Most Merciful Holy Spirit. Suka ... The spiritual path in Christianity is to love Yahweh our Elohim with all our heart and all our soul and all our mind, and to agape love (build up) your neighbor as yourself (Prophet Matthew 22:37-40). Christians are to make all nations join God's kingdom of peace and teach them to obey everything Jesus taught us, including to embrace agape love (Prophet Matthew 28:19-20).

Suka

05/19/2004 01:39:52 AM

I wouldn't call this man's version of Christianity true Christianity. Didn't Jesus say "Love your Enemies." Isn't the Spiritual Path a stuggle to overcome the evil qualities within oneself? These people are externalizing the war that is within every human heart.... One must not hate anyone in any circumstances. Jesus even blessed his tormentors by asking God to forgive them.

thefish

05/19/2004 12:19:31 AM

"You are right, they want a sign of the second coming and it doesn't matter how that is instigated." But I am here, and they do not see me. I am here, and they do not hear me. I am here, and they do not seek me. I am here, always, watching, waiting...like a thief in the night. I am Love.... Peace <

Cusidh

05/19/2004 12:17:09 AM

It's almost redundant to even say it. Am I in the least bit surprised? Phbbbbbt.

chrysalis64

05/18/2004 11:35:51 PM

Boykin is a certifiable lunatic. Allowing people like this to be in charge of armies is absurd. These types of fanatics who say "my God is bigger than his God" and "a demonic presence in that city that God revealed to me as the enemy." should not be in any position of power. They should be locked in a nice padded cell or at the very least standing on a streetcorner holding a sign saying "The end is near - Repent" Jesus must be horrified that these people are doing all manner of atrocities in His name. They are NOT Christians. They are self-righteous wackos with huge delusions of grandeur. Boykin and all the other fundie nutcases, starting with "W" need to be removed from government office immediately.

shaner

05/18/2004 11:31:57 PM

Bush keep's reassuring Arab's, people in America that this is not about Islam - once again his credibility is going down the drain, he should have removed Boykin the first time the man opened his mouth. Peace

desigirl

05/18/2004 09:28:19 PM

Evangelicals make me crack up!!!!!! First they go around screeching about how Muslims are evil and violent people, then they turn around and committ some of the most gross human rights violations around. That women from the Christian Coaltiion who claims that we should "get over it", is certainly got two screws loose. Get over the rape and torture of people, many of whom were just randomly swept up in military dragnets?? I guess being a christian never means having to say that you are sorry!!!!!!!!!

fromoz

05/18/2004 09:26:03 PM

When the Bible calls for the destruction of Babylon - that surely will never be destroyed until all the people there are bought to the god of the Bible? And when the Bible promises god's blessings on those who protect Israel - of course the invasion is being carried out by some in response to the Bible. With no WMD and with the US supporting other evil regimes - what other reason could there be for the invasion? Psalm 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

YahyaBergum

05/18/2004 08:55:08 PM

stpaulphillip, why dost thou calleth General Boykin good? Knoweth thou not that none is good but one?

YahyaBergum

05/18/2004 08:44:45 PM

Considering what went on at Abu Ghraib, can General Boykin truly be considered homophobic?

LairdsChapel

05/18/2004 08:41:03 PM

"Is this the same General Boykin?" begs the question "Is this the same Jesus?" More and more, and especially in these troubled times, it appears that Christians do not all believe in the same Jesus. It has been said before, and should be said again, that there is a difference between tolerance and appeasement. Torture in the name of the Prince of Peace should not be appeased, nor should whatever purported theology is behind it. Lairds' Chapel

devilsadvocate666

05/18/2004 08:34:49 PM

It is morons like Boykin who are leading this country to war and strife with all the other nations. They have the nerve to blasphemy their own religion by claiming to speak on the behalf of their God. Its sickening. My question to them is simple, if their God is truely omniscient and omnipotent, then why not let the "sinners" deal eith God when they are to be judged? Since when is it their place to cast judgement on us infidels?

devilsadvocate666

05/18/2004 08:28:45 PM

-Cont.- As for Christians wanting Muslims to turn away from evil, what evil have such individuals who claim to be Muslim differ from the acts of evil committed by supposed "Christians"? General Boykin obviously hadn't a clue what Islam is about, and needs to learn more about different religions before defaming them. I hope that Boykin is fired or that he retires before he can make any more ignorant statements that can result in farther violence.

devilsadvocate666

05/18/2004 08:28:07 PM

stpaulphilip, I pity you. You honestly believe that all Muslims are out to kill Christians and Jews. You are sadly mistaken. I come from a Christian family, and we have many Muslim friends. They have no desire to do us any harm. Also, you have not presented any evidence to prove your paranoid claim that Muslims are out to kill Christians or Jews. People kill people, not religions. As for the Muslims worshiping a false god, prove this. If you haven't realized what Allah means, it means "the God", as in the one God. Many Muslims, Jews, and Christians that I have had the pleasure of speaking with describe the same god when asked who they worship. I have only found these three groups to be worshipping the same God, just under different names. Honestly, I think you don't know the first thing about Islam, so, therefore, you should at the very least make an attempt to learn about the Islamic faith before you trash it.

andy_f_90

05/18/2004 08:19:36 PM

I just can't stand all these Christian fundamentalist who have absolutely no clue about the beliefs and practices of Muslims other than what they see and hear from the news-media; TV, talkshows, newspapers, internet, etc. Gen. Boykin is a stain in America's reputation just as those troops were sextually torturing Iraqis. The last thing Americans need is another apocalyptic, Islamophobic divider that leeches of the denigration of other peoples' faith and beliefs.

sagenav

05/18/2004 08:16:38 PM

The religious right in this country are just a frightening and dangerous as the Muslim extremists. Instead of truly living this life they furvently wait for the end of the world, and constantly proclaim that it is just around the corner. You are right, they want a sign of the second coming and it doesn't matter how that is instigated. They need this to justify their beliefs.

trulyalarmed

05/18/2004 08:05:34 PM

jesus christ is your god, stpaulphilip. and muslims do not hate nor do they want to kill. you speak in terms of generalization and ignorance. are you by any chance blonde and blue eyed, i'm getting a very neo-nazi, vibe here, and it is a little frightening. salvation, according to your bible is of the lord- not through you and your ilke.

ElGabilon

05/18/2004 07:50:41 PM

We read the book "One flew Over The Coocoos Nest". It impressed upon us, what secular and religous irrationality can do. It wasn't enough with Jim Jones, or Hale Bop (wonder if they are still flying about in space?)or Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Baker, Father Cofflin. No the appetites are wet, the blood lust is on...charge the infidels, kill, kill, kill all in the name of Jesus who after all wasn't a peacemaker, rather a war monger. If his followers want war what else could he have been.

trulyalarmed

05/18/2004 07:29:23 PM

and by the way it screams of high school cheerleading for the sports team: who's god is greater than? our god that's who!- yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhay team!

trulyalarmed

05/18/2004 07:27:16 PM

previous post is in response to sunshine-

trulyalarmed

05/18/2004 07:25:28 PM

no this is not spiritual warfare- it is greed based hatred fueled by anti muslim sentiment and coveteousness of other people's property. boykin spoke these words publicly and it is not nailing a christian to hold him accountable for calling all muslims satanic- it is pointing out one man's bigotry. you are not properly informed, but instead, speaking out in favor of your assumed right as a christian to contend that you serve the "true god." you no more love god or humanity than any of these warmongers who thrive soley to take and kill in the name of christ. that is certainly not christ's teachings- it is a perversion.

ElGabilon

05/18/2004 07:25:04 PM

In the first place Muslims in general do not hate Christians. You find this only within the radical Muslim Right and the Christian Right. Of course both are as insane as can be. What irks us is that he was not court martialed, reduced to private and suffered the loss of all pay and allowences inculding retirement pay. It is this kind of nut that wants to have a religious war. Both the Christian Right and the Muslim Right are ignorant of their own beginnings. The only result of a religous war would be the deaths of millions of fools stupid enough to follow that line of thinking. No Jesus, No Muhummad, No God will come to anyones rescue nor will be on anyones side. God would not be involved. And yet, there are those who would don their armour and go off to a stupid war as they did during the crusades. Ignorance is Bliss.

trulyalarmed

05/18/2004 07:17:06 PM

"Now with his possible connection to Abu Ghraib, do you think I should write to my congressman again and say, "Well, don't say I didn't warn you"? " yes, and we should all join you. everyone who feels that boykin is a crackpot has got to stand up against him. you're right- this insanity has got to stop.

sunshine2777

05/18/2004 07:11:33 PM

this is a no brainer. if boykin had made comments expressing a muslim, buddhist, hindue faith, no one would have ever even heard about it .. he is being attacked because he is a christian, it is spiritual warfare. period. next, a 3 page article on the POSSIBILITY that he was involved in the prisoner atrocities. good one beliefnet. what happened until innocent until proven guilty??? oh yea, i forgot, the liberal press nails christians as guilty first... then disappear if its not proven.. first of all, if this guy is guilty, he is a representative of Jesus and he is held to a higher standard so he should pay for what he did... and he will... by the military and his own conscious as, if he is indeed a believer, the conviction of the Holy Spirit is 10 times worse than what this world can hand out. Get some evidence first though beliefnet.. an article based upon possibilities that slanders someone is not the coolest thing you can do.. its akin to the ugly name calling that we fundies take on this site.

mohammed.mussulman

05/18/2004 07:03:12 PM

Bismillah. When Boykin first made his comments while in uniform, I wrote to my congressman complaining that it wasn't proper for an agent of the US to make such statements while wearing his uniform. Also, Boykin's position in the government requires him to work towards building co-operation from Muslim countries in order to fight terrorism. His ability to build this trust and co-operation was shattered by his statements. My congressman wrote back with a "thanks for your concern, but oh well" letter. Now with his possible connection to Abu Ghraib, do you think I should write to my congressman again and say, "Well, don't say I didn't warn you"?

trulyalarmed

05/18/2004 07:02:18 PM

on boykin- he sounds like all the other armageddon pushers who think that by starting a war and saying it is a holy war between judeo-christian values and satan he can usher in the antichrist and the second coming. funny he's not listed in the scriptures. such nonsense.

greling

05/18/2004 06:38:02 PM

He should have been fired a LONG time ago over those comments he made. Now with him in the mix of the prison scandal, it becomes even more clear that he's got to go. I think the only reason people would possibly stand by him is because he shares their religion. If people are stupid enough to do this, then it'll not only be a PR nightmare for Gen. Boykin, but for the idiots who stood up for him as well.

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