The Love That Won't Keep Quiet

Hardly a day goes by that doesn't bring fresh evidence of the increased social acceptance of homosexuality.

Do_unto_others

09/21/2005 01:34:13 PM

michaelbea quotes Leviticus (incorrecty) as "condemning" homosexuality. One wonders if he does the same regarding the Levitical take on putting victims of incest to death? Or denying communion to the disabled? Or putting disobedient chilidren to death? Etcetera.

Do_unto_others

09/21/2005 01:24:54 PM

Oh dear, Mr. Colson has gone back to the 1950's (well, TV's version of it, anyway). "sex is not for recreation—it is for procreation" sez he. THAT will come as a surprise to the world since less than 3% of all sexual relations result in a baby. He dismisses out of hand the "promoting spousal unity" part of sex, and obviously doesn't think that gay spouses deserve unity, nor "stability" for OUR families. It is no wonder such ante-deluvian attitudes are going the way of Ozzie and Harriet.

DoctorPaul

07/12/2005 11:31:42 PM

There are 613 commandments. What does it say about your own psyche if you're all wrought up specifically about this one? True,it says that lying with man as with woman is an abomination, but since it's anatomically impossible literally to lie with man as with woman, the commandment is open to interpretation. What's much more clear is that The Big Boss considered it an abomination to eat pork and shellfish, since He said so many more times. Why are you throwing rocks at gays, while blissfully stuffing dead pigs and water bugs down your gullet? And if you believe in Jesus Christ, don't you find it curious that he never mentioned homosexuality? May you find true peace.

JohnQ

03/17/2004 08:19:37 AM

jghavens- Are you suggesting that people with AIDS are victims of Homosexuality rather than victims of a terrible disease? If the the gay people with AIDS are victims of homosexualtiy...then, what are the heterosexual people with AIDS victims of....heterosexuality? Are you blaming poor parenting skills and lack of compassion on the part of some parents of gay children on homosexuality? Are you blaming the high rate of gay teen suicide on homosexuality rather than on lack of compassion and persecution by uncaring, rude, disrespectful people? Again, I will pray that God opens your heart and mind to divine love, knowledge, and understanding. God Bless You!

JohnQ

03/17/2004 08:18:26 AM

michaelbea- And I thought you repeated the post here some many times to be sure I would read it. Just kidding! Thanks, I agree. Except with your understanding of Leviticus 18. This addresses cultic and cultural practises of the pagan Canaanites. So, the message here is to stay true to God and not to pagan cults. As in the First Commandment! God Bless and Peace with You!

jghavens

03/17/2004 05:32:53 AM

Amen michaelbea! You said it! God's word is the final authority. In Him

michaelbea

03/17/2004 02:54:01 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to spam my post - the submit button didn't seem to work, so I clicked on it a few times until it did work.

michaelbea

03/17/2004 02:51:36 AM

Hi JohnQ, God HAS said something about homosexuality in Leviticus 18:22. Unless you don't believe that all the scriptures are inspired by God (see 2Tim3:16), and you think that only the Ten Commandments are from Him? Or only those scriptures that you agree with are from Him? Until we meet Him face-to-face the scriptures in their entirety are the only benchmark and guidance that we have that we can trust. Anything else we might try to follow can just as easily come from man, or worse, Satan. If we look to anything other than the scriptures in total for our guidance, we can very easily be led astray. (see also my posts at the page for Jack Miles' article: "What Would Jesus Say About Gay Marriage?") If you are a Bible-believing Christian, please prayerfully read some of the references I've mentioned that God has given us in His Word. God bless.

michaelbea

03/17/2004 02:50:15 AM

Hi JohnQ, God HAS said something about homosexuality in Leviticus 18:22. Unless you don't believe that all the scriptures are inspired by God (see 2Tim3:16), and you think that only the Ten Commandments are from Him? Or only those scriptures that you agree with are from Him? Until we meet Him face-to-face the scriptures in their entirety are the only benchmark and guidance that we have that we can trust. Anything else we might try to follow can just as easily come from man, or worse, Satan. If we look to anything other than the scriptures in total for our guidance, we can very easily be led astray. (see also my posts at the page for Jack Miles' article: "What Would Jesus Say About Gay Marriage?") If you are a Bible-believing Christian, please prayerfully read some of the references I've mentioned that God has given us in His Word. God bless.

michaelbea

03/17/2004 02:50:05 AM

Hi JohnQ, God HAS said something about homosexuality in Leviticus 18:22. Unless you don't believe that all the scriptures are inspired by God (see 2Tim3:16), and you think that only the Ten Commandments are from Him? Or only those scriptures that you agree with are from Him? Until we meet Him face-to-face the scriptures in their entirety are the only benchmark and guidance that we have that we can trust. Anything else we might try to follow can just as easily come from man, or worse, Satan. If we look to anything other than the scriptures in total for our guidance, we can very easily be led astray. (see also my posts at the page for Jack Miles' article: "What Would Jesus Say About Gay Marriage?") If you are a Bible-believing Christian, please prayerfully read some of the references I've mentioned that God has given us in His Word. God bless.

michaelbea

03/17/2004 02:49:45 AM

Hi JohnQ, God HAS said something about homosexuality in Leviticus 18:22. Unless you don't believe that all the scriptures are inspired by God (see 2Tim3:16), and you think that only the Ten Commandments are from Him? Or only those scriptures that you agree with are from Him? Until we meet Him face-to-face the scriptures in their entirety are the only benchmark and guidance that we have that we can trust. Anything else we might try to follow can just as easily come from man, or worse, Satan. If we look to anything other than the scriptures in total for our guidance, we can very easily be led astray. (see also my posts at the page for Jack Miles' article: "What Would Jesus Say About Gay Marriage?") If you are a Bible-believing Christian, please prayerfully read some of the references I've mentioned that God has given us in His Word. God bless.

michaelbea

03/17/2004 02:49:31 AM

Hi JohnQ, God HAS said something about homosexuality in Leviticus 18:22. Unless you don't believe that all the scriptures are inspired by God (see 2Tim3:16), and you think that only the Ten Commandments are from Him? Or only those scriptures that you agree with are from Him? Until we meet Him face-to-face the scriptures in their entirety are the only benchmark and guidance that we have that we can trust. Anything else we might try to follow can just as easily come from man, or worse, Satan. If we look to anything other than the scriptures in total for our guidance, we can very easily be led astray. (see also my posts at the page for Jack Miles' article: "What Would Jesus Say About Gay Marriage?") If you are a Bible-believing Christian, please prayerfully read some of the references I've mentioned that God has given us in His Word. God bless.

michaelbea

03/17/2004 02:49:22 AM

Hi JohnQ, God HAS said something about homosexuality in Leviticus 18:22. Unless you don't believe that all the scriptures are inspired by God (see 2Tim3:16), and you think that only the Ten Commandments are from Him? Or only those scriptures that you agree with are from Him? Until we meet Him face-to-face the scriptures in their entirety are the only benchmark and guidance that we have that we can trust. Anything else we might try to follow can just as easily come from man, or worse, Satan. If we look to anything other than the scriptures in total for our guidance, we can very easily be led astray. (see also my posts at the page for Jack Miles' article: "What Would Jesus Say About Gay Marriage?") If you are a Bible-believing Christian, please prayerfully read some of the references I've mentioned that God has given us in His Word. God bless.

JohnQ

03/16/2004 12:10:05 AM

jghavens- Are you suggesting that people with AIDS are victims of Homosexuality rather than victims of a terrible disease? If the the gay people with AIDS are victims of homosexualtiy...then, what are the heterosexual people with AIDS victims of....heterosexuality? Are you blaming poor parenting skills and lack of compassion on the part of some parents of gay children on homosexuality? Are you blaming the high rate of gay teen suicide on homosexuality rather than on lack of compassion and persecution by uncaring, rude, disrespectful people? Again, I will pray that God opens your heart and mind to divine love, knowledge, and understanding. God Bless You!

JohnQ

03/15/2004 11:59:40 PM

jghavens- My you are everywhere tonight :-) First, I am a Christian by choice. I am a gay male by birth. I take Christ teachings very seriously. I am especially fond of Matthew 7:1-3 and Matthew 22:36-40. After reading the Bible, I can plainly not agree that it (homosexuality) is wrong. You list Baptist as one of your affiliations. There is some very interesting research material compiled by a Baptist Minister at www.godmademegay.com if you would like to take a look. You are obviously passionate about your faith...as am I! Since you do not know either me or my partner I do take exception to your assumption that our love is "lust". And, that you seem to be suggesting that our lives are "filthy and wrong". Peace!

JohnQ

03/15/2004 11:51:20 PM

michaelbea- You said: "We also don't have to be personally affected in some way to know what God says about homosexuality." I agree! For God has said nothing about homosexuality. There is nothing in the Ten Commandments on the subject and a quick review of all Bible verse comes up with not one wor attributed to our Lord Jesus Christ. Peace!

jghavens

03/15/2004 08:24:39 PM

JohnQ, There are plenty of victims of homosexuality, how about when the AIDS epidemic was rampad in the bathhouses of San Francisco? How about the men who have been raped by other men (LIKE SODOM AND GOMORAH)and getting AIDS. Yes before you say it, AIDS is rampad among heterosexuals as well as homosexuals but to say there is no victims in homosexuality is wrong. How about the children who tell there parents they're gay and they disown them? The high rate of teenage suicide due to the sin of homosexuality and knowing they won't be accepted because inside they KNOW IT'S WRONG? Christ can heal the sinful heart and make you happy with a life of heterosexuality. "With GOD anything is possible".

jghavens

03/15/2004 08:15:55 PM

What gets me is when people who claim to be Christian go to "weddings" of gay friends and go with them to "gay pride" parades. If you read the old or new testaments it says plainly it is wrong, and you are a liberal, fence sitting, lukewarm "Christian" and Jesue said I will spew you out of my mouth. Someone said If you take Christianity and the Bible away from Christian Bigots, (make no mistake if you take God's side and speak up for him, and the bible you are a bigot in the worlds eyes) that we have no reason to hate homosexuality. I hate the sin of homosexuality I feel for the lost out there who are blinded by Satan and his lies into feeling that the lust they feel is "love". I would still, (even if I weren't a Christian)dislike the perversion of homosexuality and still think of it as filthy and wrong.

michaelbea

03/15/2004 07:14:38 PM

Hi JohnQ, I think you've missed the point of delfuego's post. It's not the fact those sins have a victim that makes them wrong. And we don't have to experience them first hand to know they're wrong. We also don't have to be personally affected in some way to know what God says about homosexuality.

michaelbea

03/15/2004 07:05:19 PM

sorry, line 16 should read "consider those other bonds"

michaelbea

03/15/2004 07:03:15 PM

-jbhtx713- True, the anchor that holds is faith in God. But doesn't true faith in God lead one to want to obey His rules and Christ's teaching in the entirety of what's revealed in the scriptures? I know some modern Christians don't hold much stock in Paul's writings. So why not look to what Christ says - in Mark 10:1-12 - here he talks for a while about marriage & divorce. His whole discourse is centered around that bond being between a man and a woman. No other combination is mentioned or even hinted at. This suggests to me that He didn't consider other those bonds as part of God's plan. There were only a few of the existing Laws that Christ over-ruled and said no longer needed to be followed (and those in Leviticus 18 are not among them). In fact He stated that He didn't come to destroy the Law, which suggests He expects His followers to honor & obey it, including Leviticus 18.

michaelbea

03/15/2004 06:43:14 PM

I've been reading through some of the older posts and am astounded at some of them. jbhtx713 & lucilius, How does calling Colson "just another pathetic evangelical" or a "purple-faced shrieking demagogue" help this discussion? How does it show any kind of tolerance? (or even maturity?) While I may not agree with everthing Colson says here, that doesn't give me the right to attack him personally! While I

pamchad

03/11/2004 11:07:26 PM

delfuego, I can see your point about being removed from something unless we ourselves experience it. I get that. I just know that gay marriages should not be fearful to Christians but it should shake us up from our comas spiritually. What do I mean? If you really feel that this is wrong, pray, vote, and love those that you feel are different than you. I cannot believe that the gay community are victims, but they do have different beliefs than I do. I do not want God's job of judging. I do not believe in gay marriages, and JohnQ understands this. I just know that I do not live in fear. pamchad~

JohnQ

03/11/2004 11:35:47 AM

-delfuego- You bring up the point of a 'victim'. With pedophia, murder, theft, corporate crimes...there is a perpetrator and one or more victims. With homosexuality, there is no vicitm. The point is it is your opinion that homosexuality is wrong. I support your right to your opinion, but please don't try to force the rest of us to live our lives based on your opinion. Peace!

delfuego

03/10/2004 06:04:19 PM

"How does Gay Marriage really effect you"? Well it does and it dosnt. I have no fear of being forced into a homsexual union. but I then again how does pedophila or murder or theft or corperate scandel affect me if I am never the victem of any. the point is that it is wrong and therefor we should stand against it. as a gentile living in nazi germany how would the holocaust affect me. "no man is an island or poditory be"

JohnQ

02/26/2004 02:10:30 AM

-georgy7- How does Gay Marriage really effect you personally one way or another...unless you believe that somehow your will be forced to marry someone of your own gender? What does it really matter to you if someone else if promiscuous or not? Peace!

georgy7

02/25/2004 11:02:13 PM

jacknky: Sorry that sentence in previous post should have read """The condemnation of homosexuality...""" etc not gay marriage. Thanks for pointing it out. As for the statistics, here they are: 1. """Survey finds 40% of Gay men have had more than 40 Sex Partners""" The Lambda Report, January-February 1998, p.20. 2. A national survey by Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, & Michaels in 1994 found 42.8 lifetime sexual partners among gay/bisexual men compared to 16.5 for heterosexual men. I would be interested if you can show any research/findings that indicate that homosexuals are less promiscuous than heterosexuals. I am not trying to demonize gays but there is a lot of misinformation with no hard facts or statistics to back it up.

georgy7

02/25/2004 11:01:25 PM

jacknky: Sorry that sentence in previous post should have read ""The condemnation of homosexuality..."" etc not gay marriage. Thanks for pointing it out. As for the statistics, here they are: 1. ""Survey finds 40% of Gay men have had more than 40 Sex Partners"" The Lambda Report, January-February 1998, p.20. 2. A national survey by Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, & Michaels in 1994 found 42.8 lifetime sexual partners among gay/bisexual men compared to 16.5 for heterosexual men. I would be interested if you can show any research/findings that indicate that homosexuals are less promiscuous than heterosexuals. I am not trying to demonize gays but there is a lot of misinformation with no hard facts or statistics to back it up.

georgy7

02/25/2004 11:00:14 PM

jacknky: Sorry that sentence in previous post should have read "The condemnation of homosexuality..." etc not gay marriage. Thanks for pointing it out. As for the statistics, here they are: 1. "Survey finds 40% of Gay men have had more than 40 Sex Partners," The Lambda Report, January-February 1998, p.20. 2. A national survey by Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, & Michaels in 1994 found 42.8 lifetime sexual partners among gay/bisexual men compared to 16.5 for heterosexual men. I would be interested if you can show any research/findings that indicate that homosexuals are less promiscuous than heterosexuals. I am not trying to demonize gays but there is a lot of misinformation with no hard facts or statistics to back it up.

georgy7

02/25/2004 10:59:36 PM

jacknky: Sorry that sentence in previous post should have read "The condemnation of homosexuality..." etc not gay marriage. Thanks for pointing it out. As for the statistics, here they are: 1. "Survey finds 40% of Gay men have had more than 40 Sex Partners," The Lambda Report, January-February 1998, p.20. 2. A national survey by Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, & Michaels in 1994 found 42.8 lifetime sexual partners among gay/bisexual men compared to 16.5 for heterosexual men. I would be interested if you can show any research/findings that indicate that homosexuals are less promiscuous than heterosexuals. I am not trying to demonize gays but there is a lot of misinformation with no hard facts or statistics to back it up. I would buy the logic that encourages gays to marry to reduce their promiscuity but the fact is it doesn't. Personally, I don't think a person should be/encouraged to be promiscuous especially after marriage after all one marries this "perfect person" for "love", doesn't one?

georgy7

02/25/2004 10:59:06 PM

jacknky: Sorry that sentence in previous post should have read "The condemnation of homosexuality..." etc not gay marriage. Thanks for pointing it out. As for the statistics, here they are: 1. "Survey finds 40% of Gay men have had more than 40 Sex Partners," The Lambda Report, January-February 1998, p.20. 2. A national survey by Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, & Michaels in 1994 found 42.8 lifetime sexual partners among gay/bisexual men compared to 16.5 for heterosexual men. I would be interested if you can show any research/findings that indicate that homosexuals are less promiscuous than heterosexuals. I am not trying to demonize gays but there is a lot of misinformation with no hard facts or statistics to back it up. I would buy the logic that encourages gays to marry to reduce their promiscuity but the fact is it doesn't. Personally, I don't think a person should be/encouraged to be promiscuous especially after marriage after all one marries this "perfect person" for "love", doesn't one?

jacknky

02/25/2004 03:33:08 PM

Good Lord, "georgy7", where in the world did you get this stuff? Let me get this straight. You don't want to allow gays to marry because they're too promiscuous. First, I don't buy that. You're just trying to demonize gays so you can discriminate against them. We heterosexuals are a pretty promiscuous lot too. Where's the cutoff point? By your logic, wouldn't it make more sense to encourage gays to marry to REDUCE their "promiscuity"? You've put them in a Catch-22. We won't let them marry because only .75% of them are monogomous. (Where the hell did you get that?) You don't see the illogic there? It's like saying you can't have the medicine because you're sick. After saying all this, I don't buy your contention for a minute that homosexuals are more promiscuous. That's pure bull-crap. Peace...

georgy7

02/25/2004 12:50:15 AM

rainjoy: I would question your assertion that the role of sex was to conserve property rights especially the portion that indicates women were sexual property. In the OT an Israelite could "sell" any of his family for a period of 6 years including himself and the right to "sell" herself was not taken away from the woman. All Colson says is that the two most important reasons for sex were procreation and promoting spousal unity and hence the restriction on sex oustide of marriage. The primary motive of sex is not recreation that does not imply you cannot derive pleasure from it. The condemnation of gay marriage is precisely because it promotes promiscuity. The "monogamous" gay marriage is a miniscule part (read less than 0.75% of homosexuals) and an oxymoron.

jacknky

02/23/2004 09:19:04 AM

Well said, Rainjoy. Do we really have so much love in the world that we can throw any of it away?

rainjoy

02/22/2004 08:59:18 PM

(Part 3) Finally, Colson's idea that sex historically "served two important purposes: procreation and promoting spousal unity" is dead wrong. In the patriarchal culture that gave rise to Judeo-Christianity, sex -- or its restriction -- served to guarantee paternity and conserve property rights. In earlier matrilineal cultures, women's sexuality was given free reign and admired as a symbol of the fecundity of the earth. Only after women became property was it necessary to demand that the wife be sexually faithful to her owner-husband. Not "the well being and perpetuation of the community," but the well being of patriarchy depended on sexual ownership. Long live love in every form, and one form of love we can all practice, regardless of sexual orientation, is tolerance.

rainjoy

02/22/2004 08:57:56 PM

(Part 2) Colson mourns the loss of the ability "to judge the morality of any sexual act between consenting adults." Let's talk about ethics, not morals. Morality adheres to religious dogma, while ethics advances the public good. In my opinion, it is in the public good to encourage acts of love and discourage acts of hate (such as the Christian right's determination to deny basic human partnership rights to gay couples). We all rise or fall together, and insisting on rights for all people advances our culture.

rainjoy

02/22/2004 08:56:59 PM

(Part 1) Wow, I just read this article -- I can't believe Colson actually argues that sex is for procreation, not recreation. And to think differently makes us lower than the animals?! Recreation is exactly what sex is. Engaging in any creative act emulates God's creative nature and is a form of re-creation. This is why condemnation of gay marriage puzzles me. How can we condemn any act of love? For when we love we are acting in God's nature and making the world a better place.

lucilius

02/16/2004 10:56:24 AM

Good point, free4all; does this mean that women over childbearing age are barred from having sex, but guys are OK for the duration as long as they sleep with young women? (Not that that interpretation would be personally regrettable to me, looking at it from the most selfish angle, heh, heh, heh.) And I'd like to ask Colson: how many kids have you got? Unless Mrs. Colson's been squeezing them out by the dozen, or you never take your pants off, we've got a little mote-and-beam problem here.

free4all

02/15/2004 06:37:24 PM

Analyse this Colson statement for any sense of fact: "to once again establish that we are not lower than the animal species, that sex is not for recreation—it is for procreation" Don't animals ONLY have sex for procreation ?And that recreational sex is why we humans, the assumed higher species, have sex an average of 2 - 3 times per week until we are quite old. In fact, I firmly believe that sex is our God-given toy. The vast majority of all sexual activity has nothing to do with procreating. Colson wraps himself in the cloak of Christianity to whip up some frenzied support for sexual oppression through a specious argument about recreational sex being animal-like when in fact it is quite unique to humans. So poor Charles must not have had sex since the conception of his last child lest he be having sex for the wrong purpose.

lucilius

02/13/2004 05:02:36 PM

I think Colson's article is is mis-titled. From what I've seen, it's the purple-faced shrieking demagogues like Colson that won't keep quiet. Most gays want exactly that: to live quiet, normal lives, unharassed by bigots; to peacefully enjoy the same rights guaranteed to all of us. But instead they get a constant torrent of denunciation, and I think it's quiet understandable that they'd be tired of it by now.

guestinawearyland

08/18/2003 11:56:05 PM

jbhtx713: Ho-Hum....

jbhtx713

08/18/2003 12:19:31 AM

The anchor that holds is faith in God. Church history is filled with stories of fearful people who were threatened by expanded understanding: Earth rotating around the sun, services in native language, end of legalized slavery, interracial marriage, female clergy and now gays. If you believe in a limited, vengeful God, this must be very scary for you.

guestinawearyland

08/17/2003 10:07:08 PM

Doesn't anyone desire an Anchor That Holds anymore. I am so sick of belief systems that come from some combination of 1) which direction the wind happens to be blowing, and 2) the sexual perversion of the mass media.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:19:32 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:19:31 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:19:26 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:19:00 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:17:26 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:17:17 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:17:14 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:16:04 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:15:09 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:14:28 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:13:14 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:12:58 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:12:55 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:11:56 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:11:26 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:10:52 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:09:57 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:09:47 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:09:33 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

jbhtx713

08/06/2003 10:09:26 PM

Colson conveniently omits scripture that doesn't fit in with his family value fantasy. Jesus said his presence would be a source of strife divding family members against each other. Paul believed marraige was a waste of time since it made men settled and thus weak, but mostly because the end was near so there wasn't time to waste on relationships. The disciples abandoned their families and jobs...so much for traditional family values. Colson is just another pathetic evangelical who confuses a moment of religious euphoria with a seat of moral authority. Grace is a free gift that is unearned and undeserved. Those who falsely believe they have earned any special place are delusional idolators, not followers of Christ.

hermanvonpetri

08/04/2003 10:27:06 PM

Incorrect. Homosexuality is an orientation NOT a behavior. Besides if I'm not mistaken don't you have a CIVIL RIGHT to congregate at the religious institution of your choice???

icthys

08/04/2003 04:30:03 PM

Homosexuality: The only bevaior which demands it be labeled as a "civil right".

hermanvonpetri

07/31/2003 11:45:31 PM

So far the conservatives have pounced on the fearful statement, "Gay relationships may soon be thought of as equal to heterosexual relationships! Do you want that to happen? Then fight against it!" How blatantly UNAMERICAN to use a term the conservatives threw around so much concerning the war. To be fearful that someone else's personal romantic relationships might actually be viewed as equal to their own scares the hell out of them.

sweetness4life

07/30/2003 10:50:02 PM

Colson: "Historically, sex served two important purposes: procreation and promoting spousal unity. While these may not have always been honored in the observance, no one doubted that these were the purposes of sex." What about just the sheer pleasure of it? "...sex is not for recreation—it is for procreation." It sounds like Colson is a bit of a Puritan--someone who's terribly afraid that somebody, somewhere, might be having a good time.

dannyuk2

07/30/2003 03:46:17 PM

joe i also also beleive free4all - if we werent supposed to be gay - how come we are? If persecuttion and ex gay ministries were supposed to make us straight, how come so many who practise these things end up with mental health problems or worse- suicide? The world is becoming over-populated because of heterosexual activities and lack of sex education, also doctrines preaching that even condoms are immoral. gay relationships do not put a burden on this or any society and will not bring its downfall. and if sex was just meant purely for procreation - how comes gays find it enjoyable too? im not gonna go into all the gory details but in anal intercourse usually both partners enjoy the experience.

Trav42

07/30/2003 11:18:53 AM

The Supreme Court ruling on sodomy in Texas might have been about sex, but it's a mistake to think that gay rights are only sexual rights. Yes, they include sexual rights, but they go beyond. I wish that conservative commentators would stop equating gay rights only with sex. Gay rights are about love and relationships as well as sex. They are about building a life with someone and having that relationship stand on equal footing. To me, at least, sex is only the smallest part of that.

Curious_joe

07/30/2003 08:49:23 AM

Free4All, "Can you unequivocally prove it is not?"...That's easy if you believe the Bible is God's word...Let's start with Leviticus 18:22.."Do not lie with a man as one lies with a women; that is detestable"...And just in case you want a New Testament example, Romans 1:27, "In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men commited indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."...Seems crystal clear to me, Free4all, homosexuality is against God's will for His word says it is detestable and a perversion...of course, you would have to believe the bible is his infallible word for this to make any sense to you.

free4all

07/30/2003 05:18:11 AM

Charles, your view could hardly be narrower. The historical context of many matters important to mankind, particularly in medicine, psychology and human rights have given way to thinking wildly different form the thinking of 2,000 years ago. So why should thinking on sex be different? The pill changed our thinking on sex. Our fiinally understanding that being a bastard is not the bastard's fault, although the church shunned them for centuries, preferring to put them into abusive orphanages. Who are you to judget that sex is for procreation only? Did you have a personal chat with the Body Designer Himself and he told you that under no circumstances were people to have sex only for recreational purposes? I believe that your ego is very hard at work here and my advice would be to pray for understanding, not to pray to have God do just what you want Him to. I contend that the gay rights "juggernaut" is God's Will. Can you unequivocably prove that it is not?

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