ipetrified

05/05/2010 11:50:33 PM

Besides' I am pretty sure somewhere in the bible it says something along the lines of this: If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die or if you curseth your father or mother then you will be put to death. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but is that not evil?

ipetrified

05/05/2010 11:47:39 PM

Sorry, I meant to say. Are you sure that the bible is even true to every last word? Have you ever even read a Qu'ran (I haven't) or even bothered to do minuscule UNBIASED research about it? IF YOU WOULD HAVE READ SOME OF IT you would know that Islam (the word means peace) clearly says that the belief in Jesus Christ is a true path to god, so technically speaking, your 1/2 a Muslim. Besides also, no where in the Qu'ran does it say you will get virgins for blowing shit up. It is merely Muhammad trying to describe what Heaven is like to a bunch of MEN

ipetrified

05/05/2010 11:43:16 PM

Preachjesusboldy04- Who in the world are you to decide what is evil and what is not? Are you sure, that anything that contradicts the bible is true? I mean.. c mon Genesis 7:22 - And all things wherein there is the breath of life on the earth, died. I would like to see how Noah got a blue whale onto the ark. But is it not the Lesson Learned from Noah's Ark the point? Not the fact that it didn't or did happen? (That god loves us but that doesn't mean he can't get pissed)

lexy1981

03/06/2006 06:18:16 PM

It isn't that religion suppresses women, but the way it is INTERPRETED! It is never justified to subordinate gender, no matter what you beleive. Religion teaches and inforces many great things such as morals and values that you can't get anywhere else, but it comes with a great cost--the subordination of women. Religion doesn't naturally supress women; those within a religious orgainzation un-naturally suppress women. And what's even worse is that many are passing on these beliefs to their children. Will unequal gender isssues ever die?

preachjesusboldly04

06/10/2004 06:00:27 PM

A great book that I would recommend to anyone who is in search of truth and in search of true understanding is Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Many who object to some "radical" statements made by Christians do so without realizing that these statements merely come from people who actually believe the Bible. These people do not pick and choose what to believe in the Bible. They believe that the entire Bible is true and authoritative. The guy who called Graham a racist was totally off. Graham is saying that Islam is evil - and he's right. Any teaching that contradicts the Bible is evil. Note what Graham said later: "As a Christian minister, my calling and focus is to proclaim the God of the Christian faith to all who will listen and hear, and to love all people, regardless of their faith." So, basically, Graham is saying that Islam is evil, but that he still loves Muslims. The mission of the church is to love the sinners but hate the sin.

jjrshewmake

04/13/2003 01:26:18 PM

theide, The fact is - civilization has occurred because of religion. All good things are subverted and used to justify the worst that man can do. That man has a spiritual aspect beyond the trappings of his physical manifestations is held true by the vast majority of people. I gather that you eschew all beliefs. Please consider that evil comes from individuals with evil intent.

theide

04/13/2003 11:58:46 AM

Perhaps one day humanity will grow up, stop this slaughter in the name of belief.

theide

04/13/2003 11:38:17 AM

All religions are evil, including those that call themselves something else(communism, capitalism, etc). There is no such thing as a good religion, because no matter how cloaked in sweetness and light, there is always a requirement for the true believers to at least shun the unbelievers. Most religions take this further, demanding outright discrimination in terms other than just social. Add to this the overriding belief that most religions foster (we are right, they are wrong, we go to heaven, they go to hell) and you have not only the perfect tool for power, but the main reason, or at least excuse, for most of the brutality and oppression that comprises human history. I choose to hold on to a thread of hope, that humanity will not destroy itself in the process of purging the evil we call religion from the world.

vplush

04/12/2003 11:17:43 PM

LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOUR SELF....LOVE AND UNDERSTANDING is a sign of WISDOM

Paratus

04/12/2003 01:50:14 PM

Do I belive that those who don't believe Christ died for them and accept Him as their savior will burn in a fiery hell for eternity? I must say that I don't really know for sure. I know that there are still many people in the world who have never even heard the name of Jesus, let alone His gospel. Will God lump these innocents with Saddam Hussein and send them to eternal torment? I don't believe that He will.

Paratus

04/12/2003 01:45:51 PM

Nowhere in my Bible does Jesus demonstrate a hatred for anyone. Furthermore, he instructed us to "turn the other cheek" when we are struck by those who despise us. Do I believe that we should have done nothing following 9/11? I believe that it was God's will that we as a nation would have turned to him for justice. But, as a nation, as individuals, we lack the necessary faith and we take up arms to extract justice, seeking vengeance...just as did the ancient Jews in Canaan. They rejected God's way of doing things and so he gave them a terrible responsibility, the destruction of those opposed to the Jews. If the Jews had trusted God, he would have given them what he promised, but they did things their way. Much as we do today.

Paratus

04/12/2003 01:45:25 PM

I believe we're all forgetting that ultimately, God is in control. He will judge righteously, not Mr. Graham or Osama bin Laden or anyone else here on earth. People calling themselves Jews, Christians and Muslims have all used ("perverted") their respective teachings, gospels, etc. to justify killing each other. As a Christian, I believe that my responsibility is to Christ, to live a life that honors him. To do that, I must try to imitate him. No matter how poorly I do that, I must keep trying.

Bojevus

04/12/2003 04:42:28 AM

OK folks, I know this isn't a receptive place for this, but open your minds for a few seconds and read. I'm not going to tell you there's no god, that's an affirmative statement I have no proof for. The thing I will say, is that there's little or no convincing evidence that the bible is anything more valuable than aesopp's fables. I'ts a nice story about how to live. nothing more. There's exceptionally little real evidence that there exists some supernatural power that controls and created the world. You're no different from the people who believe in UFO's. I mean, I've seen the documentaries about those, they have UFO's on video, I haven't sen a video of god. Of course the UFO stuff is BS, why wont you accept the same thing for god. Tear down you churches, send your bibles to african countries for kindling. Instead of collection plates, give your money to help your fellow man, not your minister; it's what your mythical savior would have wanted had he existed in the first place.

ShepherdPeter

03/29/2003 08:19:32 PM

Not every person who CLAIMS to be a Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. Jesus taught us to love our enemies, to do good to others. He taught us to turn the other cheek. He also claimed to be Lord of all. He claimed to be God, and, as such deserves my worship. He was the ONLY one that suffered and died for me. He was the ONLY religious leader to rise from the dead. Other leaders said that they would SHOW the way. Only Jesus said "I AM the way."

baylor99

07/11/2002 04:27:35 PM

For the lack of a better phrase this guy is a racist dumb ass. If we are to use his analogy, a white Christian did blow up the Oklahoma federal building, a white Christian did eat people alive (Jeffrey Dahmer), several white Christians did terrorize people through the KKK. Are we also to assume that all white males and more particularly all white Christians are evil too?

maltheist

07/11/2002 11:56:49 AM

A poll taken not long after 9/11 showed that the vast majority of Christian Americans agree with Franklin Graham, believing that Muslims do not share their value system. What this poll actually demonstrates is that indeed they do. The value system shared is one of mistrust, divisiveness, and antagonism as each group hears God tell them THEY are the chosen ones who have got it right while everyone else has it wrong. Only if we stop listening when God says these things will we truly achieve unity, freedom, and peace. Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: m a l t h e i s t @ h o t m a i l . c o m

tanganda

12/28/2001 03:30:48 AM

I agree with Franklin Graham's views on Islam. Mutatis mutandi, they are equally applicable to evangelical christianity.

chiron1977

12/22/2001 03:16:32 PM

It's very interesting to be witness to the religious flame wars that have been taken place on a web site devoted to educating about the various religions in order to promote religious tolerance. How can we ever expect peace in the world when we can't even find peace amongst ourselves?

phyl5

12/19/2001 03:31:58 PM

It wasn't Muslims that lynched blacks - it was Baptists and Methodists

cdknill

12/11/2001 10:38:44 PM

Tara8691: 'All patriarchal, male-dominated religions are inherently ugly, violent and evil.' History has shown us that even in matriarchical (sp) societies women are capable of the same levels of atrocities as men. Wasn't it Marie Antoinette who said "let them eat cake"?

cdknill

12/11/2001 10:34:10 PM

oharoon: "However isn't some of Christian thought that whoever does not accept Jesus as God will burn in hell for all of eternity regardless how kind the person maybe?" Here is proof - Last night 12/10 on The Point on CNN Jerry Fallwell acknoledged that he felt all non-christians who died on 9/11 were going to go to hell. He said this after being pressured by Alan Dershowitz (sp). I love my Christian cousins. I only point this out to show that there are extremists in every religion and so we should all be careful before we call any one group intolerant.

senseiiiiii

12/10/2001 03:38:43 PM

Tara8691 said: 'All patriarchal, male-dominated religions are inherently ugly, violent and evil.' ======================== And are inherently female as well. We all share a common nature. There really is no point in pointing. Because we are just pointing at ourselves.

oharoon

12/06/2001 01:30:19 PM

With regards to having non-muslim freinds. [Quran 60:8]"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable."

oharoon

12/06/2001 01:28:56 PM

trevdogreid54 lies when he says:""Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends" (5.44). (5:44) says "It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. "

oharoon

12/06/2001 01:24:18 PM

We Muslims accept you... you do not accept us.

oharoon

12/06/2001 01:23:05 PM

trevdogreid54, However isn't some of Christian thought that whoever does not accept Jesus as God will burn in hell for all of eternity regardless how kind the person maybe? However unlike your intolerance... The Qu'ran says "2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

oharoon

12/06/2001 01:16:31 PM

trevdogreid54 lies when he supposedly quotes the Koran: "and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah... may Allah destroy them"(9.30) What 9:30 says:"and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allahs curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" 9:31. "They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."

tara8691

12/06/2001 10:24:44 AM

All patriarchal, male-dominated religions are inherently ugly, violent and evil. Witness the witch-burnings and the atrocities commited during the Crusades. Witness the atrocities committed against Canaanite cities in the Old Testament by followers of Jehovah. Witness atrocities committed in the name of Allah. All these religions are bad. I will never allow my children to participate in any of these religions, and will disown them if they even hint at converting. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world, not your evil male gods.

trevdogreid54

12/06/2001 01:59:23 AM

Prickliest Pear, First of all, where in my post did I state anything to the contrary about the Old Testament. Second, your point might be a lot more relevant if it were Orthodox Jews constantly blowing stuff up, referring to America as Satan, etc. The fact is Franklin Graham may not have made a p.c. statement, but was he wrong when he said Methodists weren't the ones running planes into our buildings? Of course there are Muslims out there who love peace. But, politically incorrect as it may be to say so, there are a whole lot of Muslims out there who cheered on 9/11. It happened in Iraq, Palestine, and Pakistan, and it was caught on tape. It's time to stop with this talk of tolerance, if the radical Muslims won't even tolerate us enough to let us live.

PrickliestPear

12/06/2001 12:08:51 AM

trevdogreid 54, The Qur'an is indeed a violent book. Not like the Old Testament. That book's all about love and justice. Sure, there's the commandment to execute disobedient children (Deut 21.18-21). I was lucky, my parents are kinda liberal and decided not to enforce that one. The OT does require the punishment of death for certain offenses, but they're always clearly justified, unlike the Qur'an. Like executing adulterers, for example (Deut 22.22). I mean, we gotta "purge the evil from our midst," right? And if some wretched person should curse their father or mother, clearly the only moral thing to do is put them out of their misery (Ex 21.17). I remember when my neighbour worked on the Sabbath. I got a bunch of people together, and we stoned him, as Ex 35.2 clearly requires. I mean, what were we supposed to do, let him live? Imagine! If only Muslims would drop the Qur'an and embrace the Old Testament, the true Book of Love and Justice!

trevdogreid54

12/05/2001 07:09:09 PM

The Koran, being the peaceful book it is, says, "and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah... may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" (9.30) "Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends" (5.44). How could we ever get the impression that Muhammad had anything but love for non-Muslims? Puzzling.

oharoon

12/03/2001 07:13:21 PM

Muslims believe in justice even if it is against ourselves or our parents. Its our duty to protect Muslims and non-Muslims alike against oppression, and tyranny... even if we have to fight fellow Muslims to achieve those goals.

oharoon

12/03/2001 07:10:57 PM

Bowen, As you know there are people who act in the name of various religions and commit acts that are completely condemned by that religion. The Nazis actually believed that God was on their side and that they were good christians. The Klu Klux Klan also believe they are good christians. Likewise there are people who claim they are Muslims and commit crimes. Qu'ran 4.135 "O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do."

oharoon

12/03/2001 07:05:31 PM

2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression. Furthermore chapter 2 goes on to say. 2:256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. Forced conversion is completely against Islam. A person's choice of relgion is their right.

oharoon

12/03/2001 07:02:35 PM

Bowen, You are refering to verse 2:192 I think? 2:190 You may fight in the cause of Allah against those who attack you, but do not aggress. Allah does not love the aggressors. 2:191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. 192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

oharoon

12/03/2001 06:56:36 PM

Thats true heaven isn't automatic. One must strive to be good and just, and a person must ask God for forgivness when they sin. With God's mercy they can go to heaven. However who goes to heaven is for God to decide. Qu'ran 22:17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

Bowen

12/03/2001 06:50:36 PM

Oharoon, I understand that they were peaceful and that is great. I suppose my question then is: I am a little confused about the Qur'an seems to be telling the Muslims to kill Christians and Jews and well those who are not or do not want to become Muslim unless they convert. I can't remember the scripture verse but I think it's in chapter 2.

Bowen

12/03/2001 06:46:30 PM

Oharoon, Ok so the Qur'an does say that if Muslims Christians and Jews believe then they will go to Heaven. It seems like you have to work your way to Heaven. Is that right?

oharoon

12/03/2001 05:16:24 PM

Bowen, Just look at history and you'll find Muslims were very accepting of non-muslims. Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years, Jews and Chrisitians held prominant postions in court and were ministers. All were allowed to practice their relgioin freely, until the Spanish Inquisition that killed, and tortured Muslims, Jews and even other Christians. Where did the Jews go afer the Inquisition? Not to Europe to face more bigotry they went to Muslim areas ruled by the Ottomans where they knew they would be able to practice their religion freely.

oharoon

12/03/2001 05:11:42 PM

Bowen, I didn't you read my posts??? The Qu'ran says "2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." Where does killing Christians and Jews come into this??

Bowen

12/03/2001 04:38:42 PM

If that is true then then what has been said is correct. I'm speaking of the point that they were trying to make about Christians and Jews being killed.

Bowen

12/03/2001 04:37:22 PM

Oharoon, I understand what you are saying when the whole scripture is not represented properly. I am a little confused as to what is being said here. It's a like the 1611 KJV of the Bible. It looks like that those who reject your god are to be killed by by the Muslims, and then after that if they become Muslim then they are to be spared. Is that the meaning here?

oharoon

12/03/2001 02:40:50 PM

An example illustrateing that people's impression of Islam is wrong is the expedition against the city of Tabuk. In the final year of the Prophet's life there were strong rumours of a large Byzantine force massing in the city of Tabuk to attack the Muslims in Medina. The Prophet raised an army of 30,000 soldiers and decided to fight their army in Tabuk and surprise them. When he got there he didn't face an army... the rumours were wrong. So what did he do? Attack the undefended city? Wrong? He followed the teaching of the Quran that said you can only fight an enemy that is first fighting you. He turned his army around without takeing the city. It would have been easy to take the city, but because he was not a war-mongerer he left the city in peace.

oharoon

12/03/2001 02:39:27 PM

What the Qu'ran says about living in peace with non-muslims: [Quran 60:8]"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable." [Quran 4:90]"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them." [8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

oharoon

12/03/2001 02:29:13 PM

In order to understand the Qu'ran you have to read it all in context, and take into account what was happening historically when a verse was revealed. Go to www.islamicity.com and read about Islam by yourself. Don't believe Franklin Graham's lies.

oharoon

12/03/2001 02:25:24 PM

What people need to understand the Qu'ran didn't appear in one day. It was delvered by the angel Gabrial to Prophet Mohammed over a 23 year period. During that time many armies were raised to fight and kill muslims. So the Qu'ran does talk a lot about fighting. However some verses were only meant for a particular time. For example "9:101. Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk: they are obstinate in hypocrisy: thou knowest them not: We know them: twice shall We punish them: and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous penalty."

oharoon

12/03/2001 02:17:53 PM

The Qu'ran says about non-muslims: 60:8. Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. 60:9. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

oharoon

12/03/2001 02:15:19 PM

This is what the Qu'ran says about non-muslims: 2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

oharoon

12/03/2001 02:07:09 PM

"4:89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- 4:90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."

oharoon

12/03/2001 02:06:39 PM

GodlyAdvise practices deception when he quotes to Qu'ran he purposely leaves out phrases. He bears false witness to Muslims. For example he says: "Take not to yourselves friends of them [Christians and Jewish], until they emigrate in the way of God; then if they turn away seize them and kill them [Christians and Jewish] wherever you find them and take no friend nor helper from among them [Christians and Jewish]" (Quranic Sura Women 4:89)." That isn't an accurate representation of Islam. This is what the Qu'ran really says. (continued)

oharoon

12/03/2001 01:54:28 PM

If you want to read up about what Islam is, you need to to go to a Muslim source. Go to www.islamicity.com

salvo

12/03/2001 09:28:19 AM

ASTRO, Many abuses were/are commited in the name of religion. As for the "whinning wicca", please point to me a passage in the New Testament where it calls for violence or hostility of any nature towards non-believers? LAMB, We are in the "end-days" insomuch as we are closer to them today than we were yesterday and will be even closer tomorrow. And even closer the day after that... ADVICE, Please try to limmit your advice as it seems to be more clutter than anything.

lamb0301

12/02/2001 10:53:43 PM

Go to site http://www.lamblion.com..select "Our responses to the American Attack" and then select "What is Islam". They will direct you to the chapter and verse in the Koran.....definitely against Christian and Jew. Yes we are in the end times "many will come in My name".

Bowen

12/02/2001 04:52:23 AM

If what Franklin Graham said about what the Quran preaches is true then I too stand behind what he has said. That does not mean that he or I hate Muslims, it is simply stating what the Quran preaches. Now assuming this is true is there anyone who might know where this can be found in the Quran? Thanx

astro5

12/01/2001 10:30:08 PM

He who does not sin cast the first stone. Christianity is just as much at fault for killing non believers; witches, pagans? What about the Crusades? Genecide of the Indians? Manifest Destiny? Slavery? Come on now...both religions stem from the same book of violence and fear. God kills and destroys as well. Isaiah 10;10 Jeremiah 9;13 Leviticus 24;11 Someday, I am going to document how many battles were in the name of GOD. Christianity is the Bible? Yes it is, for if it wasn't Jesus would not be expected, and like I said before Jesus said to not omit the Old Testament. I really think that any religion from the middle east ought to be re-evauated for modern times if we are to have peace in the world. If the Bible is the foundation blocks, let the demolition begin!

cjean1

12/01/2001 04:46:18 PM

I personally know some Muslims and I think they are wonderful. Just because a certain "sect" of Islam is calling a jihad on the US, does not mean all the Muslims want that. Islam means Peace and I believe they want that as much as we do. Don't judge by just some...that is how many of us are judged, by a few "bad apples". Take in the whole. cjean1

GodlyAdvise

12/01/2001 04:27:29 PM

Insight of what Franklin B. Graham said about Islam! Islamic Allah, Muhammad, Quran & Islam command to kill & to destroy, & according to the Word of God in the Gospel, it is Satan, who kills & destroys! If Muslims accept the killing commands of Islamic Allah, Muhammad and Quran, then they believe in the killing ideology, which is the current and the coming danger of the human history even in 21st. Century. Muslims can not offer any polite form of interpretation of the Arabic word [Al-Qatal] which means to kill and all non-Muslims are subjected to such killing commands of Islamic Allah, Muhammad and Quran. How United Nations Organization or UNO, and the Civilized US and Civilized Europe can save the peace loving international community from such killing ideology of Islam? Thanks, FriendlyPost@Hotmail.com

GodlyAdvise

12/01/2001 04:26:51 PM

Insight of what Franklin B. Graham said about Islam! Islamic Allah, Muhammad, Quran & Islam command to kill & to destroy, & according to the Word of God in the Gospel, it is Satan, who kills & destroys! How USA President Mr. Bush, calls Islam as a religion of Peace, while Allah and Muhammad and Quran of Islam all command killing of non-Muslims, including Jewish and Muslims? Are Bush?s comments just to please Muslims, Arabs, Oil producing lands or compromising with his own True and Godly Belief? If Muslims deny the killing commands of Allah and Muhammad and Quran, then the Muslims deny the Quran itself.

GodlyAdvise

12/01/2001 04:25:24 PM

It were the Turkish worriers who disengaged Jewish nation and now Jewish nation has it complete right to claim backs all the land of Israel. Non-Muslim Palestinians in Israel were confined to Gaza and they may live there. But Muslims had no historical background to claim the land of Israel. As in the world war two, all the hateful and killing literature of Hitler and his Nazi forces was put to ban, so now is the time for the UNO and for the Civilized Western Nations, to put to ban all the hateful commands, killing commands, perverted position of Women in Quran, prejudice handlings with non-Muslim, degrading the minorities in Islamic lands, killing of any one who rejects Islam and converts to the Way the Truth and the Life, man-made Islamic claim that the authenticity of the Holy Bible has been changed and all related Fathwas in Quran and Islamic teaching. Taslima Nasreen from Bangladesh also demanded the same in Calcutta ? India to rewrite Quran once again, without the Perverted State of Women.

GodlyAdvise

12/01/2001 04:24:41 PM

Insight of what Franklin B. Graham said about Islam! Islamic Allah, Muhammad, Quran & Islam command to kill & to destroy, & according to the Word of God in the Gospel, it is Satan, who kills & destroys! If Muslims had lived peacefully in their Arabian Areas, there would have no need for any attempt to counter attack. Muslims started wars first. It were not the Christians who started wars first. Muslims in Kashmir, Bosnia, Philippines, Kosovo, Palestine, exercise the rebellion against the pre-existing governments and the in order to keep the law and the order, the respective governments have to act. Muslims should remain peaceful in the nations and among the community where they have born or live and should be a faithful citizen rather than a rebellious. Jerusalem and the whole Israel had been and have been the historic nation and land of Jewish and Muslims cannot claim Israel as their land.

GodlyAdvise

12/01/2001 04:22:53 PM

Muhammad stole the Biblical truths and perverted these Divine Truths for his own sensual and sexual and political ambitions and so Islamic Allah, Muhammad, Quran and today?s Muslims have killed and destroyed millions and millions of lives and souls. If Muslims think that today?s Islamic violence is the back clash of the Crusaders Action, then Muslims should know, that if Muslims of that time, had confined to their own territories and had not greed to engulf the land of other nations, then there would had not been fights, but in Islamic greed and lust, the Islamic worriers wished to engulf other nations and their land and so the Muslims created war situation first and the for the West it became necessity to stop this burning fire, which would have engulfed Europe and the whole West, if not stop, if not confronted.

GodlyAdvise

12/01/2001 04:20:32 PM

Insight of what Franklin B. Graham said about Islam! Islamic Allah, Muhammad, Quran & Islam command to kill & to destroy, & according to the Word of God in the Gospel, it is Satan, who kills & destroys! So in this jealousy and satanic hate towards all non-Muslims especially towards Jews and Christians, Muslims want to destroy the Jewish and Christian Values and terrorise the international community with the oil money and with their evil and hateful heart, that all non-Muslims may become Muslims. Remember that Satan, steals, kills and destroys, while the One True God loves, restores, saves and offer the Real Peace. Satan stole the precious soul of Humanity from God when the 2nd. sin happened by Eve and then later by Adam and then the humanity suffered killing and death and even the souls of sinful generation face the eternal destruction.

GodlyAdvise

12/01/2001 04:19:07 PM

Insight of what Franklin B. Graham said about Islam! Islamic Allah, Muhammad, Quran & Islam command to kill & to destroy, & according to the Word of God in the Gospel, it is Satan, who kills & destroys! Muhammad commanded his people to shed the blood of his enemies. He was the example of the believers and the political leader of the Arabian peninsula. Osama Muhammad Bin Laden and his Muslim Al-Qaidha followers did exactly the same, what Muhammad used to do in his time. With sword, Muhammad killed anyone who did not want to believe him and to save the life if someone believed in Muhammad, he or she had to become Muslim. So all Muslims today adopt the same strategy to spread the Islam. Muslims are jealous of what the Christian West has achieved in Science and Technology and the Muslims could not get this.

GodlyAdvise

12/01/2001 04:18:06 PM

Insight of what Franklin B. Graham said about Islam! Islamic Allah, Muhammad, Quran & Islam command to kill & to destroy, & according to the Word of God in the Gospel, it is Satan, who kills & destroys! Quranic Sura Al-Ma'idah 5:32 teaches that:.. whosoever kills a human being other than (in punishment) for manslaughter or causing corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all humanity, and whoso saved the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all humanity. Muhammad killed many in wars and so do his followers, so according to this Quranic verses, Muhammad, and all his followers who have killed any life on this earth, have killed the whole humanity. Muhammad did not bring peace to the world, but many wars. He sent his followers into raids and holy wars more than thirty times. He himself participated in such attacks and expeditions twenty-nine times.

GodlyAdvise

12/01/2001 04:16:10 PM

Insight of what Franklin B. Graham said about Islam! Islamic Allah, Muhammad, Quran & Islam command to kill & to destroy, & according to the Word of God in the Gospel, it is Satan, who kills & destroys! "Take not to yourselves friends of them [Christians and Jewish], until they emigrate in the way of God; then if they turn away seize them and kill them [Christians and Jewish] wherever you find them and take no friend nor helper from among them [Christians and Jewish]" (Quranic Sura Women 4:89). "Fight them [Christians and Jewish and non-Muslims], till there is no persecution, and the religion is Allah's entirely" (Quranic Sura Spoils 8:39). "Quran of Islam teaches that: When the sacred months [Fasting month of Ramadhan] are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush" (Quranic Sura Repentance 9:5).

GodlyAdvise

12/01/2001 04:14:10 PM

Insight of what Franklin B. Graham said about Islam! Islamic Allah, Muhammad, Quran & Islam command to kill & to destroy, & according to the Word of God in the Gospel, it is Satan, who kills & destroys! How any faithful Muslim may stop killing, when Islamic Allah, Muhammad and Quran, command to all Muslims to kill all non-Muslims, and this is the evil force behind N.Y. US attack: (Quranic Sura The Cow 2:191), (Quranic Sura Women 4:89), (Quranic Sura Spoils 8:39), (Quranic Sura Repentance 9:5). In the Quran, Muhammad commands more than sixteen times that his enemies, all unbelievers [Christians and Jewish], and those who have slipped away from Islam should be killed: "Kill them wherever you come upon them. Expel them from where they expelled you; sedition is more grievous than slaying. Fight them not by the Holy Mosque until they should fight you there; then, if they fight you, kill them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers" (Quranic Sura The Cow 2:191).

salvo

12/01/2001 01:20:47 PM

ABALEADA, Please. You may try and convince yourself over and over, but the men who destroyed the WTC and massacred thousands of innocents WERE Muslims. Whether you can accept it or face it is another story. Do you not think that these men believed there was one God and that Mohammad was his messenger? Do you not think that these men read the Quran? Do you not think that these men were acting under it's orders to "kill the unbelievers wherever they find them"? You stated yourself (and I know this for a fact) that the Saudi royal family doesn't behave the way "austere" Muslims would expect them to. And I have had several Muslim friends that went out drinking, picked up women in bars, and even ate pork (hot-dogs). But they were still Muslim according to them.

astro5

12/01/2001 08:56:13 AM

He,he, I just spoke to several Muslims about this subject, and they said that there is no way they would convert. The Muslims would rather fight than switch. So they are just as staunch on their beliefs as the Christians. In fact one of the reasons they gave for not wanting to be converted to Cristianity is because they view Christians as borderline lawless, and void of values. So one of them said "what would the Christians think if we thought they needed to be converted to Muslim?" So I guess respect each other and leave each other alone...or we will be putting the world into danger. Now is a go time to practice tolerance!

bigredone

11/30/2001 03:56:30 PM

Graham's statements are ignorant, callous,and , alas, all too representative of many christians in the US. However, we should not forget the good aid work he did for Bosnian Muslims--without any intent to convert--during the civil war there.

nskal

11/30/2001 11:08:00 AM

This is the stupidest comment I ever heard from Graham. The fact is, the Bible is full of direct orders from God to his "chosen" people to kill the women, children, and even animals of the non-Jews with "the edge of the sword." Read Joshua and the OT books before it. I am not a Muslim and will never be, but the Koran contains as much (or less) passages calling to war as the Bible, and that's only regarding the historical era in which it was written. It also contains passages that talk about peace and respect for other faiths, saying that those who refuse to convert in a Muslim country should be protected and respected. You don't find that in the Bible. Practically speaking, Graham is just implementing bin Laden's plan for the world, which divides the world into two entities, the religious (of the respective religion) and the "infidels". This is a message of hate and will not help at all to fix this mess that the religious extremists from the other side of the world have put us into.

darnay2

11/30/2001 12:20:17 AM

Ok, so it wasn't christians who flew planes into the WTC. Beliefnet won't give me room enough to post all of the terrorist attacks that have been launched on the people of this world by Christians. The Bible preaches just as much about the value of murdering one's enemies as the Koran. No, more. The koran is nowhere near as long as the Bible as a whole. I ask Pastor Graham: Grow up and learn to read.

nashvilleyogini

11/29/2001 06:51:08 PM

I haven't had time to read all the posts, but this is what is giving me the most difficulty right now: it's OK for professed Christians to misrepresent Islam and quote the Koran out of context, but the same people brook not even the slightest error or falsehood when it comes to their own faith. There's an important distinction, too, because in the U.S. the lies being told about Islam are putting people in danger.

astro5

11/28/2001 09:47:57 PM

If people stuck to the way of the words of their religions, we wouldn't be in this mess! Even if we came up with a world religion (take a number) we will still have hipocrits and violators. If you talk the talk, walk the walk, and I don't see too many people doing this. Also keep your religion to yourselves. Christianity is just as right as the Muslims; same God, same rules, just that there are plenty of the same faults in the people.

zazaz

11/28/2001 06:05:32 PM

I have been watching the debate rage on: What is the "real" Islam? For one thing, only Muslims should engage in this debate. For another thing, I am not interested in becoming a scholar of the Koran. What interests me is not what the holy books say but how is a living faith being lived by the actual members of that faith. It is an uncontrovertable fact that Islamic societies in the Middle East are mostly undemocratic theocracies and that Islamic societies have a long history of warfare against non-Islamic societies. This is just reality. Deal with it. True. Christianity has plenty of blood on it's hands although that's mostly in the past. Monotheistic religions have this tendency to proclaim their god the only one and to be ready to defend that belief with the sword. Polytheistic societies have a much greater history of tolerance. Not that they are perfect. But they are less self-righteous on the whole.

joemama

11/28/2001 01:24:24 PM

I'm so happy Franklin Graham spoke his mind. Ditto for Falwell and Robertson. Now maybe people will start realizing what idiots these guys are and quit sending them money. Ditto for the press, which seems to look at these guys as representatives of American Christianity. The fact that they get so much press time is ridiculous. Its a shame - I never really followed Billy Graham much, but he was one evangelist who at least seemed to have some common sense and love in his heart. Its a shame his son is not made from the same fabric.

astro5

11/28/2001 10:16:45 AM

I am furious at the comments made by Franklin. I am not religious at all, and now refuse to be even sympathetic to any religious cause. If religious differences fuel a war between Muslims and Christians-LEAVE ME THE HELL OUT! I will move to figgen Iceland!

abaleada

11/27/2001 10:36:29 PM

He and his croonies are severely undereducated regarding Islam. Those who make attacks against the US and happen to have a Muslim family upbringing or an Arab heritage do so screaming political statements: "Free Palestine!" "Down with America!" "Kill Israel!" Religion? It was on the backseat a long time before these fools went suicidal. Religion, namely Islam, doesn't even support what they did. When terrorists kill, whom do they kill? Governmental leaders? Lawmakers? Policymakers? No. They take out innocents and civilians with them. They destroy buildings. They wipe out trees, other plants, and animals. Where does Islam stand in such matters? Comepletely against them. Killing onnocents is against the teachings of the Qur'aan (5:32 or close by). Knocking down buildings, killing animals, and destroying vegitation is outlawed in the ahadith. Striking out without warning is against the policies of armed jihad. Did these guys act out because of Islam? Hardly. They acted in spite of Islam. -aba

abaleada

11/27/2001 10:35:59 PM

When put into the context of the fact that the passports were, for the most part, stolen, however, it begins to clear up. You want your new identity to stick, right? So you go out of your way to prove it. You leave behind items in your supposed language. You sport objects of your suppsoed religion. I should point out here that no Muslim, self-respecting or not, would *ever* drag a Qur'aan into a bar. Religious Muslims know the implications of such an action, none of which are good. Bad Muslims don't bother with Qur'aans. Ever. No practising Muslim purchases lapdances, dates girls, screws girls, drinks beer, etc. So we're not even sure that these guys are Muslim. Next is the question of whether anyone even rammed planes into buildings as some kind of religious statement. Sure, Osama said, "kill all Americans" and then tried to make it look religious. But the man doesn't even hold the certification required to make religious declarations like that.

abaleada

11/27/2001 10:34:43 PM

> There is no verification whatsoever that the folks who took out the WTC and attempted at the Pentagon are Muslims. In fact the evidence lies to the contrary. These guys were smart enough to be able to fly commercial aircraft. This lies in stark contrast with anyone stupid enough to leave Arabic instruction manuals lying in the car - "hey, man, what about that book?" "leave it, dude, no-one will notice." Come onnnn. Or the guy who walked into a bar with a Qur'aan, waved it in sight, and left it behind. And so many otehr examples. Or the guy who wrote his gf in Germany: "I did this for the good of the world, chikapoo. Love ya, hunny."

abaleada

11/27/2001 10:21:54 PM

But he calls himself a Muslim, so I cannot question his status. What I *can* question is his sincerity. The same thing goes for the scholars whom he pays to deliver politically-biased fatawa. If it comes from Saudiyya, I mistrust it more than if it came from any other low, ugly, dirt-poor country on this planet. No apologies. -aba uleyma wrote: >

abaleada

11/27/2001 10:21:35 PM

It is well-known that King Fahd, who oversees the production of wayyyy too many Qur'ans, trades in his set of four wives every few years to keep young blood in his palace, that he gambles up a storm every time he comes to the US, that he and his crew take up an entire hotel while they're here...basically, he does everything that a Muslim should not.

abaleada

11/27/2001 10:20:59 PM

If it comes from Saudiyya, it must be true. This thinking brings spurts of laughter and insulted snorts from me every time I hear it. It's like a Christian trying to tell me that everything that comes from Bethlehem or Nazareth must be true because that's where Jesus is from, or a Jew trying to say the same thing about Jerusalem and the prophets. Things change. Especially when politics dips his ugly hand into them. Likewise, just because Muhammad {saws} was born in Saudiyya does not sanctify the place. We Muslims still consider the Masjid Haraam to be the holiest place on earth, but the country in which it resides is terribly corrupt, and so are that country's scholars.

uleyma

11/27/2001 10:04:47 PM

Tahireah, in your reply to salvo on 11/27 at 9:53AM, you correctly say that there are two ways to read every passage of the Holy Qur'an. However, the Muslim is not to tell the unbeliever what the Holy Qur'an says, and the Holy Qur'an is not to be "translated" but only "interpreted" (as you, Tahireh, correctly say "interpreted") , because the interpretation is only that of the "interpreter". The Muslim who wishes to know what the Holy Qur'an really says, must study the Classic Arabic of the Seventh Century because no local dialect nor even MSA will convey the precise meaning. Allah deliberately chose Arabic because of the precise meanings that He wished to convey. Once knowing Arabic, the Muslim must listen to an imam recite the Holy Qur'an in order to get the correct nuances.

kwf1

11/27/2001 08:07:34 PM

Christians are followers of Jesus Christ. We believe Jesus is the Light of the World; therefore we should witness to Muslims; they too can believe in Him as Lord and Savior.

uleyma

11/27/2001 08:06:53 PM

Salvo correctly reported on 11/21 that there are two ahadith that report the words of God's Messenger [pbuh] when he was asked if female circumcision should be obligatory. He answered that it is not obligatory but spiritually beneficial. Some Muslims tell me that they only do a "reduction", taking only a "tiny piece", not the whole thing. Sudan is one nation where female circumcision is practiced. There is a list on the Web of nations that do female circumcisions. Even some remote islands of Indonesia.

uleyma

11/27/2001 07:58:29 PM

latinomuslim posted on 11/21 at3:36PM "Many American Muslims also died in those planes and in the WTC." Sheikh Ahmed in Medinah tells us that there was not one single "true Muslim" killed at the WTC. He says that the workers did not fast or give alms or pray five times a day. He says that the women did not take care of their husbands and wore revealing clothing. Sheikh Ahmed got this information from an apparition of God's Messenger {pbuh] to him on the Friday after 9/11.

vaaxu1

11/27/2001 07:51:40 PM

If I murder someone it doesn't cause people's opinion of my country to deteriorate. The fact that the terrorists were Middle Eastern is irrelevant. It has no bearing on Islam, they are simply criminals like they would be anywhere else. YOu can't judge a country by what the inhabitants do.

vaaxu1

11/27/2001 07:47:34 PM

We all worship one God, whatever we choose to call Him. We may perceive Him in a different way or believe differently about what He wants from us, but it doesn't change who He is. As Christians and Muslims we are, if not brothers in faith, brothers in worship. Whether I believe someone is wrong doesn't mean that I treat them as though they are wrong. And I find it hard to believe that an 'evil' religion could survive so long and have so much impact.

vaaxu1

11/27/2001 07:42:47 PM

I'm quite disappointed with Graham. As an important preacher, it's his duty to try and represent the views of Christians, and by having such a shallow view of Islam he is not doing his faith justice. The fact that sep. 11th can affect people's views of Islam is ridiculous. Judging a religion by its adherents is foolish, and so I hope that people do not in turn judge Christianity by the views of one man.

Tahireh

11/27/2001 10:09:44 AM

The fact is that there is to be no compulsion in religion in Islam. I am well aware, sir, that injustices have been carried out in this -- as with all -- religion's name, yet even you say that the jizia tax was "in some ages exhorbitant." So who gave you the right to hold up our worst as an example of our best, and do you hold all groups to this standard, I wonder? It is also true that non-Muslims were allowed to be governed by their own religious laws rather than by Islamic law, and worship according to their own religions -- is this not true? Does this have a precedent? We awful Muslims have a saying: don't let your hatred of a people keep you from justice. Likewise, don't let your bitter experiences at the hand of a segment of the Muslim population prevent you from seeking what Islam and the Prophet really had to say about the matter.

Tahireh

11/27/2001 10:08:47 AM

MarmarDavy, I sincerely advise you to read the Quran and Islamic history I'm a student of religious studies; I've done plenty of reading, thanks for your assumption, though. I am sorry that you, as a Middle-Eastern Christian, have had negative experiences at the hands of Muslim rulers. But to say that I cannot point to Muslim injustices as examples of mispractice of faith is disingenuous, because the last time I checked the Bible did not forbid slavery; I'm the descendant of a famous Caribbean slave-master and generations of fall-out from the practice, largely quite legal according to the Bible. There are members of my family who harbor great resentment towards white Christians for this mentality and treatment in the past, and I liken you to them.

Tahireh

11/27/2001 09:53:17 AM

salvo, Re: the Qur'anic rules on slavery, does the Qur'an or does it not command the release of slaves? You're the one making the accusations, so the burden of proof is on you. Muhammed did not die owning a single slave, and anyone who wishes to live to his example (as Muslims should) would do well to reflect on that. Quite frankly it's the critics who are doing the copping out, here: it's you who maintain that there is only one way to read the texts. At least moderate Muslims admit that there are more than one ways of interpreting things -- both good and bad. Every text must be interpreted. It's the function of reading, of processing information and language. Single-minded denials of that is dishonest at best.

Wayne24

11/27/2001 09:22:44 AM

History correctly has recorded that followers of all major religions have distorted the teachings of the founders. We should each strive to live up to the high ideals of our own belief system without inflicting harm to our fellowman. Jesus Christ said that He is the way, the truth, and the Life, that no one comes to the Father by no other way than through Him (Jesus). Franklin Graham has chosen Jesus; so have I. However, I disagree with his all-inclusive statement regarding Islam. Mankind is free to place their eternal destiny in whomever and whatever they so choose, and they are free to proclaim it to others. Just don't do it by flying jetliners through buildings in my country.

Dharma_Catholic

11/27/2001 07:54:36 AM

Franklin Graham is a fool. Those men who flew those planes into the WTC were just looking to kill and to "martyr" themselves to their version of Islam-- they made no distinction between Christian, Muslim, or Jew, or any other faith. Their goal was to bring down the buildings and plunge this country into chaos. These men were no different from the anti-abortion fanatics that blow up clinics and kill doctors, or from the animal rights zealots who blow up labs-- it's not about a specific ideology, but rather about forcing their views on everyone. And they pervert the original intent of whatever they claim to be fighting for. All of the Muslims I know are peace loving, good patriotic Americans. They are decent, good people. For Graham to say these things is irresponsible and wrong.

aisha123

11/27/2001 02:12:55 AM

To Salvo, Marchetti and Marmardavy don't take all this so personally!

FnorIndy7

11/26/2001 06:54:38 PM

You're absolutely right that there are a lot of Muslims and Islamic nations that are behaving barbarically. But there are many more that are not. You say the Koran preaches violence. So does the Bible. Ah, but the passages in the Koran are to be taken without regards to context and interpreted literally, while Bible verses can be interpreted to fit a persons needs, right? It was awful when Muslims invaded other lands and persecuted the people? Wait a minute! Look at "good" Christian Europe at the same time: witch burnings, Inquisitions, etc. The Crusaders sacked Byzantium, the last remaining bastion of civilization in Christendom. When the Crusaders marched into Jerusalem, they killed EVERYONE: Jews, Muslims, and yes, CHRISTIANS. People of all three faiths were living relatively peacefully in the city before that. Which religion was more tolerant?

Rashman

11/26/2001 05:31:41 PM

Although many hasten to condemn Islam for a variety of "wrong" or "medieval" practices, I have been trying to say that it is not Islam, but how people read what they want to read into Islam. A few pages back I tried to say the same sort of thing. Misogyny and violence are not characteristics of religions, but rather the practitioners of those religions. What the Qur'an addresses, or what the hadiths clarrify are models for humans to emulate (the first are the dictates of God if you are a Muslim, the second are his Prophets' actions). However, above all, it is the role of the community to interpret and impliment these models into everyday life. Humans, with their imperfect reasoning and ofter short-sighted grasp of what is truly good, will often fall short.

dablacksox

11/26/2001 03:19:35 PM

The ultimate problem in both religions is that human nature hasn't changed. Instead of practicing the SPIRIT of the law, either the law of Moses or the law of Mohhamed, both religions instead fall into the same trap that the Jews at the time of Christ did-fundamentalism. Ignore the spirit of the law of both religions, which is love and submission, and instead focus on isolated verses from either the Koran or bible and try to build a religious doctrine on them. I am sure that this is as acceptable to God today as it was when the Pharasis did it during the time of Christ. For both religions-open your heart and LISTEN to the voice of God. Don't stop your ears and poison your heart by plucking isolated bible or Koran verses to support the blackness of your spirit. The whole of the law is to love. Whether it's the law of Moses or of Mohammed. That's the bottom line pure and simple. Anything else is the elevation of the ego over the will of God by focusing on dogma.

marchetti

11/26/2001 03:13:17 PM

Trying to take a bash at a man of God? Good, give it your best shot you God-mocking fools, cause I bet not one of you critics would take the podium for Franklin Graham in front of 100 000 people and tell them the truth...you wouldn't last 2 minutes! None of you morons. So zip it!

mohammed.mussulman

11/26/2001 02:50:33 PM

Bismi Allah. Salvo, And how many Muslims are those Christians there also killing? And let's look at the Serbian massacre of Muslims (like the 5000 gunned down in a warehouse), the Russian war against Chechnia (wouldn't you want to separate from Russia?), not to mention the tired old topic of crusades. I am saddened that so many choose to judge Islam and yet completely ignore the violent histories of their own religions. I invite those who disagree to consider this: Hell certainly isn't going to be a fun place. Wouldn't time be better spent on improving your own spirituality and relationship with God rather than cast aspersions on someone else's religion? Why is it that people always think tearing something down is going to somehow raise themselves in the process? In the end God will settle our disputes; God is the only one qualified to judge what religion He prefers over the other. Peace be upon you.

Appy20

11/26/2001 02:45:08 PM

Kcbkcb2, Jesus was a wise soul whose great ministry ended at his death at the age of 33. From the moment he died, his followers began to distort his message to love God and people. The only reason Christianity was not violent immediately after his death is because it was kept in check by persecution. As soon as Christians acquired a smdigen of power, they began their reign of terror. The history of Christianity is a perfect example of why the lines between church and state should never be blurred. With unlimited power, Christianity can be no less evil than the zealots surrounding Bin Laden. History has demonstrated this perfectly well. We don't need to relive that horror and Franklin's message is a percursor in thought to the type of ignorance that motivates senseless violence. Appy

salvo

11/26/2001 02:32:11 PM

MOHAMMAD, To reiterate Louise's VERY accurate post, Jesus did come to bring the sword. Thousands of His followers died as martyrs in the centuries following His death. Several Christian martyrs were even turned in by their own family members (St Cecilia, St Lucy) when discovered to be Christians. He was stating the truth. And in so doing, He was telling His would-be-followers, "If you want to follow Me, it's not going to be easy for you." He is right to this day. Look at how many Christians are dying as martyrs in Egypt and Sudan at the hands of Muslims.

louise810

11/26/2001 02:07:02 PM

mohammed.mussulman: the quote you are referring to isn't teaching violence. Jesus is talking about when someone becomes a Christian they will experience hatred from others, sometimes family members. I know a few people whose parents believed,when their children became Christians, they had joined a cult. You need to realise that anything- words, images, antything- can be taken out of context. If there are references in the Koran to violence (I say if because I haven't read it) I'm sure others could take that out of context. Please ber this in mind in the future

lorelei

11/26/2001 01:12:58 PM

It is about time some people noticed what is being preached by Franklin Graham. Don't think he just talks about Islam (and ignorantly, at that), his biggest, closest supporters are those that also think all Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, etc., are going to Hell. And don't even get me started on Samaritan's Purse. If they were truly a heartfelt, pure relief agency, they wouldn't require the boxes to remain unsealed when you fill them up with items so that Christian evangelical tracts can be placed in them. They are distributed, yes, to kids in hospitals, but primarily it is a way to get people to crusades and be proslytized to. What kind of charity is that?

aisha123

11/26/2001 01:07:17 PM

I am a muslim women and my parents have never beat me when i was a child. It is not Islam that treats women with disrespect. Just because some people that do just happen to muslim does not mean all muslims are like that. It is a pretty big generalization to say that the whole of Islam is evil. I'm sure there have been a lot of Christian men who have mistreated their wives and forced them into prostitution. Is that the way Christianity treats women?

mohammed.mussulman

11/26/2001 01:05:38 PM

Bismi Allah. For the Christians on the thread that maintain Islam teaches violence, from what book (Koran or Bible) can be found the following quote: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother." Answer: Bible (Matthew 10:34-37) I say, peace be upon you.

salvo

11/26/2001 11:53:24 AM

TAHIREH, Instead of trying to weasel out of an argument by calling everything lies, try real logic. I said one of the major points of Islam is what was revealed to Mohammad in the Quran was true then and true now. Do you disagree with this? Then take it up with your Imam, not me. As for slavery, Mohammad owned slaves. If he encouraged an end to slavery, why did he not just say so somewhere in the Quran? He doesn't. Never did. Whether YOU personally want to is besides the point. But then again, Islam teaches the Quran is the word for word dictation of God, so I guess you have to ask yourself, who are you to add anything to the Quran? Marmar, I too have lived in a Muslim country (in Africa). For a Christian, it's no piece of cake.

MarmarDavy

11/26/2001 11:40:57 AM

Tahireh, after reading your posting, I sincerely advise you to read the Quran and Islamic history-it seems you have no idea about what it says or- like some muslims when trapped with evidence, calim that Quranic verses either misinterpreted or misunderstood or mispracticed.!! Again jaziah was paid by every non muslim - even by clergy, it was not restricted to 2.5% it was according to the ruler discretion & in some ages exhorbitant. As for the claim that it was for military upkeep, let me tell you this, non muslims never invited the muslims in, they did not ask for protection and they never asked to be exclueded from military and forced(!!) to pay the Jiziah. Actually the jiziah was very important for the Muslim rulers to finance their lavish life and expensive military campaigns-sicne their original home (Arabia)and its deserts had nothing to give them. I am a middle east Christian and I know exectly what we are talking about!

MarmarDavy

11/26/2001 11:18:11 AM

Tahireh, The Jiziah tax was complusory, Non muslims when invaded by muslims three choices: 1- Convert to Islam 2- Pay the jiziah(submissively and feeling themselves subdued) 3- Be killed It is no use denying these facts that turned the life of non muslims into hell for centuries. The jiziah was a mean for pressuring the poor non muslims into conversion since they will be killed if they don't pay. There is no use denying these facts.

Tahireh

11/26/2001 08:59:47 AM

a correction to my last post: Due to my wording one might come away thinking that the jizia tax is compulsory. This was unintentional: since the tax has been waived at points in history by Muslim rulers, it would seem that it is more of an optional measure than many would indicate.

nona_marie

11/26/2001 08:57:53 AM

First, let me say that I persoanlly am Christian. But in response to SALVO'S comments about the Koran never updating its views on slavery and wife beating, I would point out that the Bible also charges slaves to obey their masters and women to be completely submissive to husbands and male family members. ALthough neither practice is commonly accepted in the typical American househld, those statements are at no point "updated" in the Bible either. Terrorism is NOT the product of Islam itself, but the product of afew deranged fanatics who happen to be Muslims. Do not forget that although the terrorist attacks were not performed by Christians, the Spanish Inquisition WAS. In closing, the only way to reach people with Christianity is to at least be willing to hear what they have to say as well. The only way they'll listen to you is if you listen to them.

Tahireh

11/26/2001 08:54:45 AM

non-believers are fair game to be killed and taxed They most certainly are not. Muslims are given permission to fight only against those who attack them (here's a shocker: even other Muslims, not only "non-believers"). There are rules of engagement for war, and if civilians and worshippers are to remain unharmed -- which they are -- how can it be (truthfully) said that anyone is "fair game"? The jizia tax (or poll-tax) to be paid by non-Muslims is for military upkeep, and is less than the 2.5% annually that Muslims (and only Muslims) must pay for zakat. Only the able-bodied males have to pay it, and if non-Muslims want to allow themselves to be drafted, then they don't have to pay it. It's that simple. You know, just because people keep saying these untruths about Islam over and over again doesn't make it true (despite what a guy named Adolf had to say about it).

Tahireh

11/26/2001 08:43:33 AM

It never says when to stop practicing slavery. Considering the fact that the release of slaves is commanded in expatiation of sins, that Muslims are constantly exhorted to free, ransom, and marry slaves, and that freeing slaves is considered to be a sign of righteousness, then yes, I would say that the Qur'an categorically prescribes an end to slavery. Yes, it would be more than possible (and, dare I say, righteous)to forbid slavery on these Qur'anic grounds. As for the Hadith, you know as well as I do people use various passages (which always seemingly contradict each other) for their own means. You give me that one for women, I'll give you two which call for female circumcision. But of course you'll say my passages are ureliable, and I'll say the same for yours. At least you acknowledge this much.

Tahireh

11/26/2001 08:42:28 AM

salvo, You are missing the major point of Islam. And what would that be? Do you know? What does the Qur'an say the major point of Islam is? Are you qualified to say that it is otherwise? The Quran doesn't say, "Beat your wives until the year 2,000 when women's rights groups will denounce Islam". It actually doesn't say to beat your wives at all, depending on how you look at it (why, yes, there are other ways to translate -- which indicates an historical bias). Someone who wants to beat his wife isn't likely to not do so if he thinks the Qur'an is against it.

salvo

11/26/2001 06:41:39 AM

NADEEM,HAROON,RASHMAN, You are missing the major point of Islam. Rash gives a good double-talk (as do many modernised Muslims of today) by saying the Quran merely states how things were when it was revealed. But once again Islam states What was true then is true now. The Quran doesn't say, "Beat your wives until the year 2,000 when women's rights groups will denounce Islam". It never says when to stop practicing slavery. Therefore, to be a true follower of Islam, you must submit to these facts, even today. And those practices are inherritantly evil. As for the Hadith, you know as well as I do people use various passages (which always seemingly contradict each other) for their own means. You give me that one for women, I'll give you two which call for female circumcision. But of course you'll say my passages are ureliable, and I'll say the same for yours.

mr129

11/26/2001 01:15:19 AM

I am inclined to agree with Zero Silver to a point. Too many of us believe what others tell them. This is not only the case with the teachings of Islam. But, I will limit my response to the subject @ hand. We need to be careful in judging people based on stereotypes. The actions of a few zealots following false teachers shouldn't color our understanding of people who are seeking God. While I take exception to some teachings of Islam, I must speak out against false accussations presented by others posting here. Islam was a very progressive religion, giving inheritance rights to women. Misapplication of some teachings by more recent men has hidden that fact. Second, the Koran teaches we are all the children of the book and should not be harmed. Allah is the same God worshipped by Christian and Jew. As Christians we will never be able to develope relationships with people and witness about Jesus' love and his sacrifice for us, if we persist in believing the hate filled speech of judgemental teachers.

Nadeem2020

11/26/2001 01:05:46 AM

Rashman (...continued), The problem that I've been coping with is that Islam seems to not have set a procedure for further improvement in society. Yes the stand on slavery was brave and a big improvement in the 7th century, but how could we improve on it more today? How can a government in an Islamic country outright ban slavery (this of course would only be symbolic since there is no slavery in any Islamic country I know of), and not run into problems with the fundamentalists that believe in the letter rather than the spirit of the Quran?

Nadeem2020

11/26/2001 01:04:19 AM

Rashman, Good job clarifying some of the points about slavery and women's rights. Salvo and KCB seem to have bigot's minds and nothing you say will ever make them think. The fact that Islam is the only religion to have even taken a direct stand on slavery says something. True, it didn't outright eliminate it, but it made it practically impossible to own slaves, and gave lots of incentives for freeing them. That's about a 1000 years ahead of everyone else in an effort to start eliminating slavery from the world! continued in next post...

HGirl74

11/26/2001 12:35:55 AM

I think the problem is white, Protestant preachers and their believers. While I certainly don't sympathize with Islam, I don't see how Protestants can be so hypocritical as to call Catholics "violent." To say Catholics are not real Christians and Protestants are is ignorant at best. Protestants are too judgmental and that's why a lot of people hate them, because they are ignorant and are quick to criticize Catholics (among others). Take a look at your KKK, who proudly proclaim they are white, Protestant Christians.

zero_silver

11/25/2001 10:58:14 PM

I'm tired of people who don't have a clue as to what ISLAM is all about going around and making irrational discisions about Muslims. Everyone is talking about how Muslims put guns in the hands of childrens for Jihad. Need I remind anyone of the Children's Crusade? Apparently a couple of priests sent several hundred children to die in the desert. As the BIBLE says, (and yes I've read the bible thoroughly) "judge not lest ye be judged." You people really do need to do your homework a little better next time.

barann62

11/25/2001 09:41:02 PM

I believe in what Mr. Graham has said. Muslim religion may believe in God , but it is not the God of the Christian religion. Their God treats women like animals,used only for mans needs. They think by killing they are going to go to heaven and that it is okay. Jesus was a prophet. People can believe whatever they want, they can worship roaches if they want,but don't come to my country and kill innocent people because you don't like my God. It is not a holy war ,it is the war of a madman who wants to be God.One thing that really makes me mad is when one of our Christian churches has a muslim come to our church and preach is gospel as I seen on TV this morning.

Z_Pastor

11/25/2001 08:37:24 PM

OOPS: Time* for a father-son chat...

Z_Pastor

11/25/2001 08:36:57 PM

To for a father-son chat...

Matthew1120

11/25/2001 08:02:01 PM

President Bush is a good man, a good Christian. But fact is fact, he is a politician. In his heart of hearts, as in the hearts of all true believers of Christ, is the knowledge that Islam leads it's people by it's very nature down a path to ruin. I urge all believers in this "religion" to read the Bible, follow the teachings of Christ in the New Testament, confess your sins, and pray the Lord's Prayer daily to God for his counsel, his forgiveness, and his Saving Grace. God bless all those who seek the Truth. Seek, and ye shall find.

haroonw

11/25/2001 05:33:35 PM

it seems Rashman shot down some of the ignorant people who posted.

Barnabus

11/25/2001 05:28:13 PM

Franklin Graham, apparently, has not asked God for His/Her opinion and - to be honest, I am more than certain, God has much earlier tired of the talk of many of those who bear the name of His Son. American finds itself engaged in a most "un-holy" endeavor, seeking to avenge those who committed the 9/11 atrocities. We can all sympathize with the President and his aides and even commend those in our military who will dare to place their lives on the line, but the sad truth is, there are thousands - if not millions, on both sides of the con-flict who will pay the supreme price - the loss of their liberties if not, their lives. Christians need to be in constant prayer, first, for wisdom to be visited upon our President and our allies, as well as mercy for all combatants. It troubles me that Graham appears to be so shallow in his thoughts - as though the Holy Spirit had abandoned him. We need to pray for him.

Rashman

11/25/2001 04:03:19 PM

The Qur'anic citation is : (IV:34)

Rashman

11/25/2001 04:02:12 PM

As for Women. The Qur'an calls them the equal to men in all regards, but sets for each a sphere of influence to (again) reflect the realities of the society into which Islam came. That men may discipline their wives, but such punishment may not be physically painful (Hadith adduced by Bukhari, Tirmidhi, and Muslim). The Qur'an says: As to those women on whose part you fear defiance and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse their beds, (and last) beat them lightly (if they persist in theri defiance); but if they cooperate and pay you heed, do not look for excusses to harm them. Note it well that there is God above you. Women could also own property independent of men, conduct business ventures and had the right to dispossess their property in any way they saw fit. While there were (and continue to be) abuses these are not necessarily indemic of the religion, but the capricious whims and unscrupulous aims of some its practitioners.

Rashman

11/25/2001 04:01:11 PM

Slavery is regarded as an un-natural state for an individual, but Islam recognized such a status as a practical aspect of the society into which the Qur'an was revealed, and thereby moderated the treatment of slaves. Often, the Qur'an prescribed the manumittion (freeing) of slaves as a way to cancil a wrong act. Slaves were owned by Pagans, Christians, and Jews in the Middle Ages, and here in America until the end of the Civil War. While Christianity does not address the issue in the Bible, nor do the Jews in the OT, slavery was a part of the society and the legal and ethical treatment of them was legal, not religious or morals as in Islamic times. The Shari'a provided a status for those who were traped in that most unfortunate of states, and it regulated their conduct and helped to elevate their status in later times. Where in Western European history do you see the ilk of the Mamluks or the Mughals, where political authority and rulership was derived by ones former status as a slave?

Rashman

11/25/2001 03:47:37 PM

Salvo: I cannot believe that you really think that Islam is inherently evil. Perhaps you object to it on religious grounds, and that is your perview, but to call a faith "inherently" evil (which I take to be evil at the core and one which stives to persue evil aims) is a grossly uninformed and/or uneducated stance. That aside, I do understand your arguments regarding slavery and the treatment of women and at first blush they are serious charges to level. However, when we examine what the Qur'an says about each of these issues, something a little different and unexpected emmerges.

MarmarDavy

11/25/2001 02:25:17 PM

I am really amazed with those who compare current Islamic violance with the "christian crusades". Guyes, crusades happened 1000 years ago, it was perfectly in context with middle ages mentality and has it reason (expanding Islamic threat and invasions in Europe). Islamic violance are happening TODAY. The 150,000 Algerians, killed with axes and knives by Islamic militants, happened througout the past 10 years, the 2-million sudanese and more are killed in nowadays, the Al-Kosheh masacre 2 years ago, and last and not least the Newyork victims (5000). However,I don't agree with Dr. Graham's statement, Chrisitnas should be politically wise as not to offend moderate moslems and label billions of people as bad.

salvo

11/25/2001 02:05:26 PM

RASHMAN, Islam is inheritantly evil. It says men are allowed to beat (or scourge) thier wives, non-believers are fair game to be killed and taxed and condones (and perscribes) slavery. That is evil, no matter how you look at it. Once again, it is the tenet of Islam that what was revealed at the time of Mohammad is applicable and the same for today. I would wish that anyone who tries to beat his wife as per the prescriptions of the Quran recieve a punishment far worse than what the perpetrator can mette out.

Rashman

11/25/2001 01:25:40 PM

Kcbkcb2: Reductionism is reducing an argument to an essential factor or (for purposes of comparison) a common demoninator. Your basis was a formation argument. It is an inherently flawed method for evaluating complex or discrete phenomina. For instance, when we look at events today, we need to look at a wide range of issues, not just events that happened a millenia and a half or more ago. Your argument lies in the notion that Islam is inherently violent, because the Prophet "advocated" violence. This notion of yours that Islam was spead by warriors sweeping out of Arabia with the Qur'an in one hand and a sword in the other is facile to say the least. With all due respect, I would be interested to know what core historical events, or textual analyses are in opperation for the formulation of your argument before I respond further.

kcbkcb2

11/25/2001 11:51:04 AM

Rashman, Actually muhammad being a prophet of the sword - not to mention the entire history of islam as a religion of the sword - does explain the current trends in history becaue it is the actions of muhammad and the "friends of the apostle" that muslims draw on to shape their behavior. In Christianity the actions of Jesus and the early Christians are what weh draw on to shape our behavior. There are models in religion that people draw on to shape their actions. Christians draw on Jesus and muslims draw on (violent) muhammad. So it is very relevant. By the way your misusing the term "reductionism."

Rashman

11/25/2001 11:42:11 AM

Salvo: The historical forces that shaped both Islam and Christianity are different to be sure. The thrust of my argument isn't that Christianity's early history was warlike, but rather that Christianity of 1700-2000 years ago is far removed from the Christianity of today. Likewise, the forces that shaped the early Islamic polity are no longer factors in its development today. As for attrocities, both are equally culpable, for both were the aegis under which many of mans' darkest deeds were enacted. Does that render them both evil or violent? I would argue that neither Islam nor Christianity are evil. Rather, the sin falls upon the practitioners of those deeds and not the respective faiths, for in each resides a message of peace.

salvo

11/25/2001 09:20:21 AM

RASHMAN, The early history of Christianity is that all Christians were persecuted by the Jews and Romans. Christians never picked up a sword either in battle or even in self-defense. It wasn't until over 3 centuries after Christianity was founded by Our Lord that it became the state religion of the Roman Empire, and thus of those warriors who defended it. But it survived for over 3 hundred years prior being non-violent. Would Islam had survived if Mohammad and other Muslims had not massacred thousands of people?

Rashman

11/25/2001 01:03:57 AM

kcbkcb2: Is it your contention that the early history of Christianity is an accurate marker for your religion? Likewise, are you also contending that the early hsitory of Islam explains trends current in the religion today? I suspect that your argument is nothing more than gross reductionism, a view that is saddly shared by many in the West today. Religion is the perview of God (or whatever thing you choose for that role), its practice is something much more mundane, for it is done by creatures of far less ability. Christianity has an equally appaling record to Islam (the treatment of Jews into the middle of last century is an excellent example). All religions are the tools of imperfect actors and may be construed to convey meanings that go against the grain of the faith. If you feel that Islam is equivilant to evil, then nothing I will ever say will change your mind. But know this, you are attaching your meaning to one-sixth of humanity. Are they evil (even if you feel them misguided)?

kcbkcb2

11/24/2001 08:51:53 PM

Appy, THe problem with your statement is that Christianity does not have violent roots. Jesus did not preach violence. Christianity for the first 300 yrs was a persecuted minority religious group. muhammad on the other hand was a very violent man. his actions and teachings give justifications to muslims to act violently. There may be violent Christians, but they are acting quite in contrast to the Gospels and the actions of Jesus and the first Christians where as violent muslims are acting in conformity with the teachings and actions of muhammad and the "friends of the apostle."

Appy20

11/24/2001 07:07:24 PM

Franklin Graham's message is a perfect example of why I have always believed that God doesn't want me to be a Christian. I just can't embrace the ignorance and bigotry that is espoused by the most vocal members of contemporary Christianity. Franklin's words are full of hate-- not love. The history of Christianity is not without its share of violent insanity. Christianity's legacy of hate includes the crusades, the Salem witch trials and many lynchings in the south. These atrocities were done with the blessing and "moral" support of some churches during those times. If Franklin is going to blame all Muslims for their misguided zealots then he ought to accept responsibility for the Christian ones as well.

Cearrai

11/24/2001 04:24:22 PM

Reading statements such as Graham's often makes me want to be a born-again heathen. There are good and bad practitioners of every faith, but that doesn't mean the belief system itself is intrinsically "good" or "evil." I have met many Muslims in the Seattle area, both long-time citizens/residents and recent immigrants or visitors, and have yet to hear any of them express hatred of America, Christians or anyone else. I find that if you treat people with different cultures/beliefs with kindness and respect, they will usually respond in kind-- Cearrai

dbible

11/24/2001 02:08:27 PM

Franklin Graham's ignorant absoluteness is exposed by such spew. He is certainly a man to avoid and a man to pity.

vancejones

11/24/2001 02:06:29 PM

I agree with Frankiln Graham. The mulims are violent and wicked for their actions. I do not care 10% or 100% are peaceful. I surely do not buy peaceful people with a peaceful religion. The Jihad children have weapons ib their hands even before they learn how to walk. Those muslims infuse hate towards Americans, Jews, and Christians. Do we need these hateful Muslims to wipe all the US to really get upset to demand war and justice? They do not understand kind words with warm feelings. I would love more people to really describe their feelings instead of forcing them to change their minds as Falwell, Robertson, and Grham were forced to retract. I think those favoring muslims should go to Afghan and kill us already.

kcbkcb2

11/24/2001 01:43:48 PM

The simple fact of the matter is that in the islamic world persecution and oppression of religious minorities is pandemic and then they want to come over hear and have the same rights - actually special rights - as everyone else and prostylise. For muslims to act the way they do and then claim islam is the "religion of peace" is the biggest crock. Franklin Graham is right. It is about time public leaders started speaking out against that facist backwards religion.

SKIBBAH

11/24/2001 10:19:37 AM

It seems that the Founding Fathers of The United States were brilliant. There absolutely should be a separation of religion and government. I am sick of people flaunting their religion around like some sort of over zealously proud peacocks. You people are clowns and you deserve all the critcisim you get. I would prefer a world that puts less emphasis on G-d and more emphasis on morality. To all religious zealots and I don't care of what faith you belong, heed these words. As civilization advances and technology defines the human experience the religious fanatics will go the way of the dinosaurs.

Ayyub

11/24/2001 08:49:39 AM

I think this passing judgement thing is totally not using the mind at all. Instead of addressing the intentions of the issue and the purpose, we label and judge and demonize, which is a decrepid act for a mind given the ability to process more reasonably. Suicide bombing is bad, saying something is evil explains nothing. Looking at the actions of one side explains nothing. Tell us about the muslim man who adores his wife and gives her love and care, who prays, who has good character, who plays with children and feeds the poor, who respects people's other religions and is tolerant, who fears God. Let's make them the subject and play Graham's words. Graham's words would either be some strange irony or plain unintelligent. But he chose one side. I'd like to hear his explanation when discussing the crusades only, that's be interesting to see what he would lead people to believe. I'd be interested in his fairness and if he follows the same logic.

mouneeb

11/24/2001 07:51:14 AM

Some people are just disgusting... If I were to say that Christianity is wicked because of what the CRUSADES did in the past .. it is nonsense! Making such judgements on any religion is just disgusting! Mouneeb

qezus

11/24/2001 07:22:26 AM

What do people expect? This is a typical comment from another redneck American who has probably not even seen a map of the world, let alone understood anything about the values of those outside his blinkered backyard. Has he even read the Qur'an? Can he even read? Do his knuckles scrape the earth when he walks? Well, I'm sure it has his audiences whooping their approval ... but perhaps those interested in truth rather than politics and polemic should actually read the Qur'an, visit some Islamic websites to get a better understanding, and be humble. In Islam Allah refuses me to mock another's religion since I may inadvertently mock God. It's such a shame that those who think they have the key to God's approval and presence are actually the worse kind of hypocrites and shameless, arrogant bigots...

truth777

11/24/2001 04:05:39 AM

It's a two tiered issue. Is Islam "evil", well I would not go as far as to call it evil, any more so than atheism is evil. big difference between "evil" and wrong. As for Islam being violent, in all honesty in todays world, yes the application of Islam in a culture breeds and propogates violence. It's a political debate,not a moral one. Do we want to be friends with Islamic nations or not. Smart money would be to isolate and contain them in their own part of the world, most likley they will kill each other off, however Bush "needs" oil and wants global trade, so be prepared for more urban warfare.

mrv717

11/23/2001 04:57:06 PM

Watson, We are not judging but spreading the Gospel (which means GOOD NEWS). Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and BELIEVE in your HEART that God raised HIM from the dead, you WILL be saved. For it is with your HEART that you BELIEVE and are JUSTIFIED, and it is with your MOUTH that you CONFESS and are SAVED. I can't see anyones HEART. Only God can. He knows if they have accepted Jesus Truly or not. It is not for us to Judge because we have no power to do so. All we can do is spread the GOOD NEWS to the world.

Watson

11/23/2001 03:45:23 PM

If Franklin Graham wants to save his credibility, I suggest he engage in dialogue with this Muslim advocacy group with an open, unbiased mind. However, if he doesn't, that's his choice, but he should remember what his statements say about him. "For out of the overflow of his heart, his mouth speaks."-Luke 6:45 mrv717, You quote Acts 4:12 and John 14:6 to imply that Christianity is the only true religion. In response, I'll quote Luke 6:37; "Do not judge and you will not be judged."

mrv717

11/23/2001 01:57:54 PM

I'll make it nice and simple. ACTS 4:12 says,"Salvation is found in NO ONE ELSE, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given to men by which we MUST be saved." That Explains it all. Jesus is the ONLY WAY. Anyone who teaches that there is another way is WRONG. John 14:6 ,"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me." That simple. You have one choice. Either to Follow Him or not. It is a Personal Decision. Just know the consiquence of your decision.

Gwyddion9

11/23/2001 01:25:10 PM

evangelicals only see their belief as being the "right one" The arrogance of their faith is tremendous. This they do in the "name of Jesus" I should say "in the name of Paul" All the evangelicals that i've meet are full of feelings of judgement and contempt for others not of their belief system. Paul was a Pharisee and remained one though out his life. Judgement was his middle name. evangelical follow jesus only in name, Paul is heart of their faith. Admittedly, i'm ranting on evangelicals. honestly, i have personl issues with Islam too but they aren't here in the USA trying to run everyones life and thoughts. evangelicals are a small sect (cult)of Christianity, yet they have taken it upon themselves to "save" everyone. I wish that they would come to the understanding that not everyone believes what they do and could care less, as long as they mind their own business. also remember: "Men never do evil so completely as when they do it from a religious conviction" Gwyddion9 )O(

TheServant

11/23/2001 11:09:05 AM

cont... If that isn't evil, what is? Women are treated as less than second-class citizens, period. Children as young as 5 are working dawn till dusk in sweatshops for one cent (U.S. equivalent) a day making fabric, period. If this is not evil, what is? To use people as walking bombs or pilots on suicide missions in the name of God is evil. To slaughter, enslave or subjugate in the name of God is evil. To refer to "everyone else" as infidels is evil. All of these evils are perpetrated and carried out by the Church/State of Islam/Arabian people/countries, period. Mr. Graham is guilty of speaking the truth at the wrong time. ts

TheServant

11/23/2001 11:08:14 AM

Franklin Graham is correct in many of his viewpoints concerning Islam. It should not take the average reader long to understand that in the Arab world, there is no "separation of Church and State". They are one in the same, period. Proselytizing is against the law, period. Books, Bibles or other literature on non-Islam teachings are against the law, period. For these "crimes" you go to prison or worse.

kcbkcb2

11/23/2001 09:35:15 AM

juanon Muslims countries have been horrible to religious minorities especially Christians. The Orthodox Church was in Constantinople before the Ottomons invaded. The fact that it survived is a testament to the strength of that Church not the benevolence of islam or muslims. Besides there are very fer Christians left in Turkey seeing as how most of them were killed or forced to convert. Turkey also, still will not admit to the Armenian genocide. Where are the muslims of Greece, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc? There are still there. Why don’t you look in an almanac at the populations of those countries. As far as Turkey is concerned the Christians that were in Byznatium were either killed, forced to convert or had to pay a 50% tax on everything as well as give a their first born male child to the muslim army

kcbkcb2

11/23/2001 09:34:56 AM

This is also true in the Balkans. This is why there are so many muslims in Albania. The crusades and the inquisition were the result of CENTURIES of invasion and forced conversion of the Near East, North Africa, Spain, Sicily, Southern Italy, the sacking of St. Peter’s in Rome and the exclusion of Christians from Jerusalem. The Christians of Spain were forced to convert or had to had to pay a severe tax, could not defend their religion in public (just like in muslim countries today), could not physically defend themselves if a muslim attacked them, but could only ask the muslim to stop; had to move off the street if a muslim walked down the road; could not wear shoes; was not allowed to ride a horse – only a donkey. These some of the reasons for the crusades and the inquisition. As far a Egypt is concerned just goto www.copts.com and see what the Egyptian Christians face.

islamegy

11/23/2001 08:55:24 AM

Here is 2 sites for trusted info about islam http://english.islamway.com/ http://www.alazhr.org/ b4 anybody talk about our religion make sure u have the right information first and anyone who have sites about the other religion will be welcome

shaner

11/23/2001 08:51:34 AM

Graham, in his thoughtless remarks on Islam, does not fit into mainstream Christian thinking and practise, he should take notes from his father, and look to unite Christians and never, ever, slam another person's belief systems. He has to come forward now and speak with Islamic leaders about his most distateful remarks to bring about a solidarity between fundamental Christians and their Islamic brothers and sisters. I pray he does.

islamegy

11/23/2001 08:50:01 AM

Hello everybody... I"m not going to attack any religion or defend... but i hope everyon before talk about other religion must read enough about it b4 they start to talk. and read from the right resources coz this is a holy area in our soul... Our prophet mohammed said "7b le akhek ma t7bo le nfsk" which meen in english we most like to others the same we like to ourself... so everyone take care and god bless u alls in our holy month Ramdan

juanon

11/23/2001 12:47:59 AM

About the Orthodox Church and Islam's treatment of them...the very fact that the Orthodox Church is headquartered in Istanbul, and has always been allowed to exist in Istanbul is evidence of the tolerance of (at least, Turkish) Muslims. Where are the Muslims in Greece, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc--lands that Ottoman Turks ruled for centuries? Where are the Muslims in Spain, where Muslims ruled for centuries? Yes, we know...today we call it "genocide", that's why there are no remnants of Muslims in those lands. And to those who said that the Inquisition and the Crusades were the fault of Islam--how ill-informed a thing to say! The Muslim Ottoman Empire, for example was the only country on earth to accept a sizable number of Jews fleeing the Christian Inquisition in Spain. All religions have their dark moments because people are not perfect (even if their faith may be). But Christianity's is, as a fact, the darkest.

jlb32168

11/22/2001 11:54:01 PM

Speaking as an Orthodox Christian, and as one who holds a degree in World History, I marvel at how quickly the Christian church has been taken in with this repackaged form of Islam. My own mother who is protestant was heard to remark that, "Islam is a religion of peace." The Ecumenical Patriarchate was occupied by 79 men in the 800 years before the Muslim conquest of Constantinople. There have been 110 Patriarchs since 1453 when they overran the city and the great Hagia Sophia church was turned into a mosque. Of those 110, a handfull died natural deaths in office. The rest were deposed, hanged, strangled, or thrown into the sea. Islam is a religion of peace. Islam is a religion of peace?!?

kcbkcb2

11/22/2001 05:30:38 PM

joischer, The inquisition and the crusades were the result of CENTURIES of islamic invasion and the forced conversion of the Near East, North Africa, Spain, Sicily and Southern Italy. Not to mention the sacking of Saint Peter's in Rome and the exclusion of Christians from making pilgrimage to Jerusalem. That is what caused the crusades and the inqusition. Ironic how Christianity's darkest days were the result of islam. And as far as the klu klux klan is concerned they are pure racists who hate Jews and Papists. A burning cross does not signify any devout belief in Christianity. How do I know? Well for one thing they're burning a cross. Kind if strange seeing as how Jesus was a Jew and the oldest Christian Church is the Catholic Church yet they hate those two groups.

johnfri

11/22/2001 02:03:44 PM

Very true Rashman, it can be said of all tribes or all men. Yes even us Christians. Have a good Thanksgiving all!

Rashman

11/22/2001 01:29:15 PM

In my opinion, many fall into this dilusional idea that there is one monolithic Islam, sprung forth fully formed as Athena from the head of Zeus. The reality is really rather simple. Islam is called to task for a littany of crimes committed in Islamic countries, when the real problem lies with regimes and their interpretations of Islam. When the Quran and the Hadith (traditions of the Prophet) do not specifically state a solution to a problem, the choice falls on the community to set normative standards. Even the notion of disciplining a wife or polygamy (both of which the Quran addresses) need to be practically examined and integrated by a community, with different results across the Islamic world. Thus, when we talk about the treatment of people (women, minorities, etc...) we need to address first the realities of the society, for they are the ones that interpret the scripture, not vice-versa.

Rashman

11/22/2001 12:47:33 PM

The first verse appears temporally around 3 AH (After Hijra, when the forces arrayed against the early community had nearly destroyed them in the Battle of Uhud (AD 625). The community, faced with near extiction, needed support from God, which came in the form of this injunction telling them that their bodily struggles would be rewarded. (This also forms the body of the classical argument for Jihad as the Holy War) The second verse comes from around 9 AH, just prior to Muhammad's triumphat enterence into Mecca (AD 630). In that verse, the emphasis on selling ones life for the next is greatly moderated by the injuctions to strive towards God. (Indeed this leads to the notion of the "Greater Jihad - to strive for God by fighting evil within onesself, vs. the "Lesser Jihad" - to give ones life in defense of the religion).

Rashman

11/22/2001 12:37:02 PM

To all a happy Thanksgiving. As for your querry Johnfri, I'll give you a really good example of the Quran moderating its own message regarding a topical issue like jihad. (al-Nisa’ IV:74, Pickthall trans.) Let those fight in the way of God who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of God, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward. (al-Tawba IX:20, Pickthall trans.) Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in God’s way are of much greater worth in God’s sight. These are they who are triumphant

joischer

11/22/2001 09:04:52 AM

BS"D kcbkcb2- You posted that you feel that one has only to look at the history of the followers of Islam to see that it is a wicked religion. I dare you (yes, I am being so juvenile as to "dare" you, sir) to look at your beloved religion's history, too. Look at what has been done by the followers of Christianity. Christianity, especially the "orginal church," as you called it, was one of the most abusive forces of history. From crusades to inquisitions to stifling academic prowess (killing many great scientists, for example), the followers of Christianity have committed more crimes against humanity than any other religion. The Ku Klux Klan is a follower of Christianity; how do you explain them. Maybe you should back off insulting other religions and realise how disgusting your own is. joischer@msn.com

kcbkcb2

11/22/2001 08:47:23 AM

The reality is that Franklin Grahm is right. Islam plays out in horrible ways around the world and always has since muhammad himself went atound claiming to be a prohet to justify making war on others. From places like Saudi arabia, Lybia, Afganastan etc where the practice of all other religions other than islam is illegal to places like sudan where 2 million non-muslims have been killed by muslims in the name of "allah and the apostle." In Egypt it is illegal to convet out of islam and Christian Minorities are constantly discriminated against and persercuted.

kcbkcb2

11/22/2001 08:46:42 AM

For example in the amous "Al-Korash" incident where 21 Christians were killed because a Christian shop keeper would not sell on credit items to a muslim with bad credit and muslims rioted. Christians from little children to old people where killed by decapitation and burning among other ways. THe Egyptian court claims the Christians "committed suicide." Goto www.copts.com THis plays out every day like this though out the islamic world and has since the begining of islam.

Tahireh

11/22/2001 06:40:01 AM

The Qur'an also says, after all, "And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women." (2:226) And "For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward." (33:35) Finally, yes, we Muslims will continue to post scripture to support our claims that Islam is a peaceful religion, because it's easy for any kook to misuse the faith. Those who hate are a dime a dozen; there are few who will stand up for the true (peaceful, compassionate) meanings in the Qur'an -- but that doesn't invalidate the message. It only means that we humans are weak, and the straight path is narrow.

Tahireh

11/22/2001 06:39:25 AM

However, this is not the ONLY interpretation/translation of the verse. I present an alternate view here: "As for women you feel are averse, talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and go to bed with them (when they are willing)." This difference occurs because the word formerly translated to mean "beat" can be translated in OTHER ways -- which goes to show that some of what we think is questionable is more likely to be the result of translator bias (however unconscious) than problems with the original text.

Tahireh

11/22/2001 06:38:11 AM

To go on in the verse: "Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient," "Obedient" here means obedient to GOD, not to her husband. "and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)." IF one is to take this verse to allow a light beating of the wife (and I say IF because I will touch on this shortly), it is only the last and most extreme in a line of measures used to reconcile difficulties between the husband and wife, and in this case "disobedience" also means disobedience to GOD. The so-called "beating" is considered to be merely symbolic, as it isn't allowed to bruise or hurt the wife.

Tahireh

11/22/2001 06:35:56 AM

First of all, for the sake of proper context, the FULL verse of 4:34 (and this is only one translation) is as follows (with my comments): "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means." This would suggest that if circumstances exist such that the man does not support the woman from his means (whether that be because he is unable, or because the woman is self-sufficient, etc.) then he no longer is her protector or maintainer and forfeights the "advantage" over her. It's merely a matter of circumstance based on the situation of women and men at the time. You have to keep in mind that at that time a woman had no guarantee of being supported by her husband and could be left bereft at any time. Verses such as these were meant to SECURE their livelihood, not to be used 1400 years later to promote female subservience. It was never intended in that way.

topan

11/22/2001 04:52:19 AM

don't quote on the holy books to back up your arguments. just look at how muslims do to non-muslim in pakistan/indonesia (they burned a lot of churches while yelling allahu akbar)

johnfri

11/21/2001 09:13:00 PM

Here are a few Christian ones for you: Commentary then schripture; Sarah is presented as an example of the submissive wife (1 Peter 3:5-6). She assented to his decisions even when he was wrong (Gen 12:11-13). Yet Abraham also listened to her (Gen 16:2). In Genesis 21:12 God tells Abraham to "listen to whatever Sarah tells you" (about Ishmael). Sarah's orders about Ishmael were used by Paul as binding Scripture in his teaching about law and grace (Gal 4:30). Even though Sarah is obedient, her thoughts and her feelings may not be disregarded and trampled upon. There is a place for mutual submission one to another (Ephesians 5:21 And further, you will submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Another 1 Peter 3:7 In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat her with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God's gift of new life. If you don't treat her as you should, your prayers will not be heard.

Nadeem2020

11/21/2001 07:18:18 PM

Oharoon, thanks for explaining and putting many of the verses in context. Here is another question from a Muslim to another: How do you reconcile 4:34 "Men are protectors¡K. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty ¡K beat them (lightly)¡K."? Isn't this giving men unilateral power over women? Who is to judge their behaviors? The verse says, "¡Kyou fear disloyalty¡K" - not even a proof required here, just a fear? What if the men betray their women? Why is their no such power given to women? How do you define "lightly"? Isn't the "lightly" our addition anyway (i.e. not in the original Arabic)? I don't mean to attack Islam in particular in this case since I'm sure there are similar conflicts in other religions (I am not a scholar of religion, not yet at least ƒº). Do you know of any comparable unilateral powers given to men in other religions?

oharoon

11/21/2001 06:45:32 PM

johnfri: I didn't ask about the trinity. Reading Rashman's posts he doesn't say anything about killing Christians. The Quran doesn't condone murder of Christians or anyone else. However if a christian or whomever comes to my house and tries to kill me, I'm justified in fighting back and have the right to kill him. However in the middle of battle if an enemy ceases their attack, the battle is over because Muslims can not fight if no one is warring against them. This is from the Quran Chapter 109 of the Koran states: 2 "I worship not that which ye worship." 3 "Nor will ye worship that which I worship." 4 "And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship" 5. "Nor will ye worship that which I worship." 6. "To you be your Way and to me mine." This is how we deal with an unbeliever. We agree to disagree and leave them in peace.

GraniteFalcon

11/21/2001 06:43:27 PM

I would like to point out that all the things Graham is saying about Islam could very easily be said about Christianity.

johnfri

11/21/2001 06:14:17 PM

Rashman the quotes help but I still wonder about how does one apply parts of the scripture accordingly. How are you as a middle ground beliver to know when killing Christians applies and when to be courteous.

johnfri

11/21/2001 06:07:31 PM

oharoon I believe you asked about the triune nature of God. Granted to explain the nature of God is next to impossible. But many Islamic people misunderstand Triune or the Trinity and think Christians are polytheists. Think of your Dad: He is Triune in nature. To you he is a Father, to your grandfather he is a Son and to others he is Himself. Thus if you apply this to God he is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

wardhana3

11/21/2001 05:42:31 PM

terror is terror.murder is murder. innocent is innocent. 5000 person in WTC are innocent and mohamad atta cs are evil. period . no dialogue, no negotiation with evil. diabolic barbaric. disgusting they don't deserve to be called human being only SATAN and evil.

oharoon

11/21/2001 05:15:51 PM

Rashman: [Quran 60:8]"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable." Quran {2:62} Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Almost the same verse repeated again in {5:69} "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." Seems like God is trying to make a point, by repeating the message twice. You have to take the context of the Quran in mind. Read it as a whole.

johnfri

11/21/2001 05:08:35 PM

Rashman thanks for joining in. Rashman/Oharoon So what are we to do as Christians and Jews when all we hear is the extreme. And the war quotes, it seems we are on a collision course. (back in an hour)

oharoon

11/21/2001 05:06:46 PM

Johnfri: Each terrorist is different and each has their reason why they are doing what they are doing. It must be said that terrorism has no religion, becasue no religion teaches terrorism. There are terrorists who claim to have faith in various religions, but just saying they are of that faith doesn't make them a good example of a true adherant to the relgion. Now in respect to a person who claims to be a "Muslim" and a terrorist: they refer to verses of self-defence to justify fighting whatever enemy they percieve. Then they ignore verses of the Quran that say attacking non-combatants is wrong. They seem to think that ends justify the means, however such teachings goes against the Quran. Muslims are supposed to do the right thing even if it may result in negative consequences to themselves.

Rashman

11/21/2001 05:05:45 PM

Some final quotes: al-Tawba—9:30 (Medinan period): The Jews say Ezra is the son of God, and the Christians say the Messiah is the son of God. Such are their assertions, by which they imitate the infidels of old. God confound them! How perverse are they! al-Hajj—22:17 (Medinan period): As for the true believers, the Jews, the Sabaeans, the Christians, the Magians, and the pagans, God will judge them on the Day of Resurrection. He bears witness to all things. al-Jum‘ah—62:5 (Medinan period): Those to whom the burden of the Torah was entrusted and yet refused to bear it are like a donkey laden with books. Wretched are those who deny God’s revelations. God does not guide the wrongdoers. al-‘Ankabut—29:46 (Meccan period): Be courteous when you argue with the People of the Book, except with those among them who do evil. Say: ‘We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is One, To Him we surrender ourselves.’

Rashman

11/21/2001 05:05:15 PM

Yet more quotes from the Quran for Christians and Jews: al-Ma’idah—5:82: You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are those who say: ‘We are Christians.’ That is because there are priest and monks among them and because they are free from pride. al-A‘raf—7:172 (Meccan period): Your Lord brought forth descendants from the loins of Adam’s children, and made them testify of themselves. ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They replied: ‘We bear witness that You are.’ This He did lest on the Day of Resurrection you should say: ‘We had no knowledge of this…’

Rashman

11/21/2001 05:01:30 PM

Some More from the Quran: al-Ma’idah—5:51 (Medinan period): Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever among you who seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers. al-Ma’idah—5:68-69: (68) Say: ‘People of the Book, you will attain nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed to you from your Lord. That which is revealed to you (Muhammad) from your Lord will certainly increase the wickedness and unbelief of many of them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers. (69) Believers, Jews, Sabaeans, and Christians—whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right shall have nothing to fear or regret.

Rashman

11/21/2001 05:00:15 PM

Some more from the Quran: Al ‘Imran—3:110 ff.: (110) You are the noblest nation that has ever been raised up for mankind. You enjoin justice and forbid evil. You believe in God. Had the People of the Book accepted the Faith, it would surely have been better for them. Some are true believers; but most of them are evildoers...(113) Yet they are not all alike. There are among the People of the Book some upright men who all night long recite the revelations of God and worship Him; (114) who believe in God and the Last Day; who enjoin justice and forbid evil and vie with each other in good works. These are righteous men: (115) whatever good they do, its reward shall not be denied them. God knows the righteous...(118) Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin.…

Rashman

11/21/2001 04:56:28 PM

What the Quran says about Christians and Jews (and when revelation occured): al-Baqarah—2:62 (Medinan period): Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabaeans—whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right—shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or to regret. al-Baqarah—2:136: Say: ‘We believe in God and that which is revealed to us; in what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Issac, Jacob, and the tribes; to Moses and Jesus and the other prophets by their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them, and to God we have surrendered ourselves.’ Al ‘Imran—3:3 (Medinan period). He has revealed to you the Book with the Truth, confirming the scriptures that preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of men. Al ‘Imran—3:67: Abraham was neither Jew nor Christian. He was an upright man (hanif), one who surrendered himself to God (muslim). He was no idolater.

asifraza1

11/21/2001 04:54:29 PM

Its people like these idiots why we have these problems. They escape tyranny from England, and come to this country and natives felt sorry for them, so they taught them how to eat and live here, and what do they do...kill, rape and ravage the land. Just need to look at your hitory first ol frankie, and look at the history of Islam. If it weren't for the Muslims, you would still be living on trees. Take a good look in your past and please don't make these stupid comments, makes you come across as a monkey with old habits.

oharoon

11/21/2001 04:54:12 PM

Johnfri: In orthodox Islam (about 85% of all Muslims) we have no clergy. There is supposed to be a direct link between a human and God. We are supposed to come to our own understanding of Islam through self-study we don't believe in middle men. Sadly people tend to get lazy in study. They follow a cult of personality, someone who has their own goals and twist Islam to justify their own ends. So lots of these masses really are ignorant of Islam. For example Afghanistan has THE LOWEST literacy rate in the WORLD.. it makes them easy prey.

Rashman

11/21/2001 04:52:17 PM

Why is this important? Part of the miracle of the Quran is the dialogue that it has with itself over time on a variety of subjects (jihad, woman, people of the book). Thus, while one may quote this verse or that verse, without the appropriate HC in place, your verse may have been abrogated and/or moderated later on in the revelation.

Rashman

11/21/2001 04:51:32 PM

I am very saddened by the gross misinterpretation of the Quran that some have presented here. For those who really care to understand the Quran, they have to approach it like no other book (believers refer to it as Muhammad's miracle). The Quran is neither thematically nor chronologically laid out, thus this can add to propblems for the purposses of its interpretation. That aside, there are generally three different interpretations of what the Quran says (two of which have seen light in this discussion): 1 - the fundamentalist view. The Quran is literally true in all its utterances. 2 - the appologist view. The Quran says some things (such as on women, or jihad), but the context was different when it was revealed. 3 - the modernist view (which hasn't been seen here on this message board). This view basically looks at the events surrounding revelation and breaks them down into a chronology that is then overlaid with a historical one.

johnfri

11/21/2001 04:50:11 PM

Most of the Arabs I am friends with are the most generous kind people out there. So I would not dispute their honor. So how do the extremists justify terror as honor?

oharoon

11/21/2001 04:46:42 PM

An example illustrateing that your impression of Islam is wrong is the expedition against the city of Tabuk. In the final year of the Prophet's life there were strong rumours of a large Byzantine force massing in the city of Tabuk to attack the Muslims in Medina. The Prophet raised an army of 30,000 soldiers and decided to fight their army in Tabuk and surprise them. When he got there he didn't face an army... the rumours were wrong. So what did he do? Attack the undefended city? Wrong? He followed the teaching of the Quran that said you can only fight an enemy that is first fighting you. He turned his army around without takeing the city. It would have been easy to take the city, but because he was not a war-mongerer he left the city in peace.

oharoon

11/21/2001 04:45:06 PM

JohnFri: Thank you for your question. Some people claim: "How is it that the early books teach peace when Muhommed was poor and weak but when strong he speaks of war and killing." That is an inaccurate statment. You need to understand that there were armies bent on slaughtering Muslims living in peace in Medina. The Muslims in Mecca were driven out of their homes only because they believed in one God. The Muslims needed to raise arms in self-defence. With respect to your question Muslims need to follow the whole Quran. There is no contradiction in defending yourself in war and being good and respectful people. Just as a side note in the Quran there are rules of war that would really impress you, because they are so honorable unlike wars fought in modern times that tend to be without rules.

johnfri

11/21/2001 04:40:17 PM

But why does much of the the Islamic leadership allow the Bin ladens, hamas... to preach the acceptance of killing. The Islamic leadership in Pakastan, Egypt, Afganistan ... supported him. I only herd Jordan and Turky speak against what he was preaching.

oharoon

11/21/2001 04:35:45 PM

JohnFri: Thank you for your question. Some people claim: "How is it that the early books teach peace when Muhommed was poor and weak but when strong he speaks of war and killing." That is an inaccurate statment. You need to understand that there were armies that were bent on slaughtering Muslims while they resided peacefully in Medina. So Muslims needed to take up arms to defend themselves.

johnfri

11/21/2001 04:28:08 PM

Most of my knowledge comes from reviews on the books of the Quran and opinions from various Arab friends. When presented with the many quotes and when people like bin laden recite them they seem to be very credible representation of your faith. I mean no disrespect, but when a Christian Bigot says something that is contrary to our faith Pastors refute them. I have not herd this but from a few Imans.

oharoon

11/21/2001 04:19:55 PM

Johnfri: Have you read the Quran yourself or are you makeing these "points" based on what other people have said about Islam? My appology if you are indeed in innocent ignorance of Islam, and don't intend to intentionally misrepresent facts.

oharoon

11/21/2001 04:15:36 PM

Johnfri: Here is another example of YOUR blatent DECEIT. You say: “If anyone transgresses . . . against you, transgress likewise against him” (Sura 2:194). Tell me what the next phrase is in that very same verse? (2:194) If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. Soo its similar to biblical law... "an eye for an eye," and furthermore it is better to be restrained and forgive. Islam does allow for self defence, is that so bad? So JohnFri it has been shown you have no crediabilty, no honor, and no integrity. All you do is misquote the Quran and pull things out of context to spread more hate and bigotry. SHAME ON YOU!

pitts

11/21/2001 04:14:43 PM

You have to forgive Franklin Graham. The man lacks sufficient brain power to think rationally. If he's going to say Islam is a violent religion based upon his reading of the Koran then he needs to familiarize himself more with the Bible. The Bible is just as violent if not more so. Does he forget that the Israelites were commanded by God to kill all of the people living in the Holy Land when they originally entered it thousands of years ago? If he's going to say that Islam is a violent religion based upon the fact that a decent number of current practitioners are violent then I can point out that Christianity has suffered from the same problem at many times in its history. Would Graham agree that Christianity was a violent religion during the Crusades? Of course not. He'd look at Christianity separately from its practitioners. It's a wonder why he doesn't do it with Islam. Then again, we know why he doesn't do it with Islam. It's because according to him Islam is a "false" religion.

johnfri

11/21/2001 04:09:25 PM

Thank You Oharoon this is what I am looking for, an honest critique of the quotes. I do not have evil in my heart but questions based on what I have read. How is it that the early books teach peace when Muhommed was poor and weak but when strong he speaks of war and killing. How can this rest side by side? Which side can you take? I do not understand.

latinomuslim

11/21/2001 04:02:26 PM

Bravo oharoon! I could point out every flaw in the N and O teastament but since as Muslims we respect those scriptures, I wont. You have yet to answer my question johnfri. Since we are on the topic of who is right and who is wrong. Why would a perfect being (God)need two more components to exist!? By definition an addition would make it imperfect. Why would God need "his son's" death to forgive the world? Surley God is all powerful and merciful. See, you fail to see that its not the religion that's flawed, its the individuals who radicalize it that are flawed. We are arguing on the "right way" to praise God...ridiculous. Concentrate on your faith, don't be afraid of mine. Its the western and Mid Eastern Gov'ts that are the root of this problem Not Christianity, Judaisim, or Islam.

oharoon

11/21/2001 04:02:14 PM

Johnfri: You interpret the Quran with evil in your heart towards you fellow man. Islam is a relgion of acceptance, you claim that Islam is intolerant then how can you explain this verse: 2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. We believe that even Jews and Christians can have a place in heaven. What does Christianity teach about the faith of non-Christians?

oharoon

11/21/2001 03:56:00 PM

Johnfri: It is a wicked thing to do to delibrately mislead people. You quote partial verses, pulling out phrases and saying things completely out of context. You say the Quran says: “Strike terror (into the hearts of ) the enemies of Allah and your enemies” (Sura 8:60). Thats only a partial quote... how about quoteing the next verse?? 8:61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

johnfri

11/21/2001 03:50:06 PM

Once again disprove your scripture. Hey its your religion you have to live with its flaws, either your holy book is true or it is false.

latinomuslim

11/21/2001 03:44:53 PM

BTW: Im not attempting to preach, the Quote Below onm Allah and the Trinity was generated by johnfri. Just aggreing on what he posted.

latinomuslim

11/21/2001 03:36:27 PM

Believe in Allah and say not ‘Trinity.’ Cease! It is better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from his transcendent majesty that he should have a son EXACTLY! Ask yourself why would a perfect being (God)need two more components to exist!? By definition an addition would make it imperfect. Why would God need "his son's" death to forgive the world? Surley God is all powerful and merciful. Most Christians no longer believe in the literal Trinity anyway, its merely symbolic to the vast majority. Look, we can argue this intil the cows come home. Bottom line dont give me this crap about Muslims murdering "us". Many American Muslims also died in those planes and in the WTC. And I dont care if you believe it or not Allah and God: same thing.

auttie

11/21/2001 03:21:50 PM

don't overlook that not all Christians are in agreement nor have they ever been in regards to the "Trinity," or for that matter, who or what Jesus was... the son of God, God Himself, or transubstantiated matter (or essence) of God. And HOW in the world are we ever going to know for sure!?!?! These are all questions of Faith, and thank God there are still people who can believe that have not seen. Truly there must be something wonderful in that, no matter what you believe. Love to you all!

johnfri

11/21/2001 03:14:06 PM

Once again, if the scripture quotes are not true show me. Your theology is faulty, read your Koran, because Bin Laden would agree with it (not most decent followers of Islam I know). And you claim to be part of Abrahams family which is right BUT the Bible said Hundreds of years before Muhammad that Ishmael would create a false religion. So The god of Islam, Allah, is most definitely not the God of the Bible. Allah is presented in the Koran as an autocratic ruler who is aloof and arbitrary (Sura 5:40). Allah is unknow­able whereas the God of the Bible is knowable (2 Timothy 1:12). Allah is impersonal, unlike the personal God the Scriptures reveal (1 Peter 5:6-7). Allah is unitarian (Sura 4:48) whereas the God of the Bible is trinitarian (2 Corinthians 13:14). Here is what the Koran says about the God of the Bible (Sura 4:171): “Believe in Allah and say not ‘Trinity.’ Cease! It is better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from his transcendent majesty that he should have a son.”

latinomuslim

11/21/2001 02:51:35 PM

Islam gave women the right to inheritence, property, and divorce in the year 500. Western Govt's gave women these rights less than 80 years ago. You folks see what the media allows you to see. CNN shows clips of Gun totting, camel riding, turban wearing oppresors of women. Enemies of the west. And Evangelists eat it up! If you want to go after Arab culture that's one thing, but going after Islam will get you nowhere. It is an Abrahamic faith. Your "Father" of the trinity is Allah whether you accpt it or not. And with every evangelist who converts one Muslim, 100 more are validated in their belief in One God, im Islam......so please...preach away!

latinomuslim

11/21/2001 02:40:08 PM

None of you Raging Evengelists care to know the True Islam. You see the Taliban Gov't. drag Islam through the mud. You site Quotes from the Holy Koran completely out of context, and pound your chest Im right your wrong. For your information Muslim means submitter to ONE god. By definition Jews and Christians are Muslims. The Koran doesnt say to kill Christians and Jews. It was direction for people of faith in the mid 1st century to defend themselves against the Pagan Armies of the world. Evangilists who murder abortion doctors and blow up abortion clinics so too are Terrorist. Hitler was the Apex Christian terrorist but you wont read that in your history books will you?

johnfri

11/21/2001 01:30:42 PM

The truth we need to know the true Islam not be PC and wonder why we are getting Murdered. Wake up AJ!

AJRoberti

11/21/2001 01:20:15 PM

True or not, Franklin Graham's comments are despicable. They are calculated to divide. They do the country a disservice as well, at a time when we need to strengthen our alliances with nations of Islamic population. Someone put a muzzle on this jerk.

lmiller30

11/21/2001 12:53:08 PM

spiritsurfer is right... though I would call those who slammed in the WTC something other than "idiots". There is a dark side (whatever your beliefs may name it) to humanity just as there is a good side... and it extends through all races/creeds/nationalities.

yasminehg

11/21/2001 12:27:01 PM

Those of you who do not have any experience living in a Moslem populated country, first, must shut up because you do not know the hell-ground. Those who has lived there and defend this pathetic religion must either out of your mind or on denial.

Spiraljoy

11/21/2001 12:05:32 PM

LOL.. this is so funny.. why is it that these xtian fundies always stick their foot in their mouth..lol

johnfri

11/21/2001 11:21:09 AM

The key is that not all Moslems are bad or wanting to kill us. But the Scripture of the Koran tells them that they MUST do it. So those who are fundamental ie Bin Laden follow it to the letter. Here is more: “Strike terror (into the hearts of ) the enemies of Allah and your enemies” (Sura 8:60). “I will instill terror into the hearts of unbelievers. Smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not you who slay them, it is Allah” (Sura 8:12, 17). Sura 4:34 says, “Men are the managers of the affairs of women . . . Those women who are rebellious — admonish them, banish them to their couches, and beat them.”

johnfri

11/21/2001 11:15:22 AM

This is the scripture if Islam is peaceful explain: Sura 2:65-66 and Sura 5:60 contain references to Jews as “apes and swine to be despised and rejected.” “If anyone transgresses . . . against you, transgress likewise against him” (Sura 2:194). Fighting is prescribed for you, and [some of] you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not (Sura 2:16). Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war (Sura 9:5). Fight in the way of Allah . . . and slay them [the unbelievers] wherever you find them and drive them out . . . and fight them until . . . religion is for Allah (Sura 2:190-193).

salvo

11/21/2001 08:37:04 AM

I guess the posts here reflect the usual PC mentality which sacrifices truth for the perceived common good. Most Muslim countries were colonised...by another Muslim country, Turkey. The Ottomans (Muslims) held Arab countries for alot longer than any European power. As for Musulman, of course you "heard" they circumcise women in the Filipines. Islam always re-circulates the same garbage to deflect it's own shortcomings. Female circumcision IS perscribed in 2 separate Hadith and is seen as PERMISIBLE (but not required) in Islam. Those are the facts.

steven_krauss

11/21/2001 02:07:18 AM

Thank you spiritsurfer...Amin to that. When will we, as human beings, realize that religion is only guidance. We can do what we want with it. If we choose to adhere to it or not, it doesn't change the religion. The religion is the religion. People may do and say whatever they want in the name of this or that, but that doesn't change the religion. People have to stop saying that Islam is violent because Muslims did this or that, when if you read the Qur'an you'll see that God forbids their actions unequivocally. And the same goes for Christianity. We have to rise above this overly simplistic analysis and seek to understand the true aspects of religions before we can make judgments about them. Remember, everything we say and write will bear witness against us one day...

SpiritSurfer

11/20/2001 11:44:22 PM

Idiots who march around in white hoods and blither on about "white power" consider themselves Christians. Idiots who slammed jets into the World Trade Center considered themselves Muslims. There are all kinds of idiots, like Mr. Graham, who have the arrogance to suggest that their own religious theories are superior than others' and then set about demonstrating exactly the opposite. All are evil at worst, pathetic at best.

Mindsight

11/20/2001 09:31:33 PM

I watched the memorial service from ground zero several weeks ago and was delighted with the conciliatory and inclusive message delivered by the Muslim cleric. I also found wisdom in the carefully chosen words of the Jewish Rabbi, but was so repulsed by the tactless evangelizing of Franklin Graham that I had to switch the channel. If forced to choose between "Franklin In The Dark" and Islam - I'll go with Allah!

Trinity2

11/20/2001 08:58:59 PM

Im agnostic, and proud of it. Anyway, every religion has it's good points and bad points. I know that some Christians have done evil things in the past, just as some Muslims have done some evil things recently. However, to say that Islam or Christianity is an evil religion is a streatch. It is "evil" to generalize a group of people because of something that a few members of the group did. --Religion itself is not bad, just some of the people who follow it.

rossaroni31

11/20/2001 08:54:31 PM

No, I don't think that Franklin Graham is correct in his belief about Islam--and I think his comments were unfair and destructive. However, if he points out anything of value, it is that actions committed in the name of faith become a reflection on that faith itself---regardless of what any scripture says. Those individuals who commit atrocities in the name of Islam bear not just the burden of their actions, but also the burden of how their actions sully the name of Islam across the world. As with many religions, the publicity surrounding violent acts allows the most extreme and misguided among the faithful to become the defacto spokesmen for it--

Curious-One

11/20/2001 08:14:48 PM

Poll says 75% think Graham is wrong. Will he now revise his position - heck no - this guy is not a politician - he is a man of 'faith'. Time for him to entrench.

bunsinspace

11/20/2001 07:03:34 PM

Don't agree with F. Graham on this.

nosamiam

11/20/2001 06:15:28 PM

If Christians had been set upon by armies, Christ may very well have asked his followers to fight as well. In order to read the Qur'an with understanding we MUST also know the historical context in which it was revealed. We MUST. Without this context, individual verses can be completely misconstrued. By not educating the masses as to their own history, the perverters of Islam have allowed this to happen in their own land! And we play right into the hands of the terrorists by also being ignorant of history.

nosamiam

11/20/2001 06:15:08 PM

I would like to say that I am saddened that people make such bold claims without the knowledge that comes from independent investigation. It must be understood that Islam is not a religion of violence. We must understand that the revelation of the Qur'an was received in a completely different manner to that of the OT and NT. It was direct instruction from God (through Gabriel) for how to deal with the SPECIFIC situation that Muhammad was dealing with. Muhammad was facing with the most intense persecution from the most barbaric of people: the Arab pagans. God told Muhammad to defend himself, plain and simple. When He could ensure the safety of his people (who were very small in number) he was to desist from fighting.

sagenav

11/20/2001 05:46:07 PM

inspiredtolove: Your handle is very ironic. But since the "Christian God" does not condone "holy wars", what would you say about all those crusades by Christian soldiers and knights?

inspiredtolove

11/20/2001 05:11:30 PM

Thank God that Franklin Graham is bold enough to speak the truth and speak it clearly and is not trying to win popularity contests by sugar-coating the truth. I agree with him totally. What he said may not be "politically correct" but it is the truth. Islam is a demonized religion, Allah is not the same God as the Judeo/Christian diety (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). Our God is an Awesome God, He reigns from Heaven above, with wisdom, power and LOVE. He does not condone "holy wars" and never has.

Cearrai

11/20/2001 04:58:00 PM

Franklin, dear, have you been having a bad day in traffic? I have many Muslim friends here in Seattle and elsewhere, with whom I get along just fine on a daily basis, and who would not dream of committing terrorist acts on anyone in a bazillion years. How many Muslims do you actually know? If any, how many of them actually approve of the likes of Bin Laden? One dear Muslim friend of mine recently commented, "The terrorists not only hijacked planes, they also hijacked my religion."

BORNAGAIN777

11/20/2001 04:54:34 PM

In John 14:6 Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me." Those are words we need to heed. Jesus Christ is the only true God and only by faith alone in Christ alone can any of us ever be assured a place in heaven. Islam is not the way. It is just another false religion created by Satan to lead people away from Jesus Christ. Therefore, I agree 100% with what Fraklin Graham said. Islam is a religion of violence. It can never bring peace. Only faith in Jesus Christ can bring peace.

sagenav

11/20/2001 04:02:27 PM

godboy30: They were just women not witches. Don't tell me you never heard of the great European witch hunts and the Salem witch trials in the new world? I'm not sure the exact number, but in some cases whole villages were wiped out in Europe by overzelous witch hunters who were getting paid by the Church for each witch killed. Mostly it was women, but also children and even some men fell victim. You'll find a lot of research on this. History Channel even had a special on this dark period of Christian history.

godboy30

11/20/2001 03:19:42 PM

Where do people get this idea that 6 million witches were killed by Christians?

greenvox

11/20/2001 02:41:33 PM

Hurts, doesnt it, when somebody put blame on your entire religion just because of a small faction. I know what you are thinkin' "That's not Christianity, that's not Christianity."

sagenav

11/20/2001 02:40:13 PM

greenvox: You forgot slavery.

greenvox

11/20/2001 02:37:31 PM

Who has organizations like Ku Klux Klan and White Supremacy League under the name of Christianity, still operative. Not us, not us.

greenvox

11/20/2001 02:34:56 PM

Whose country has de jure segregated and discriminated significat parts of its population. Not us, not us. Who never had a woman head of state. Not us, not us. Who killed de jure over 6 million mostly women in the witch trials. Not us, not us.

greenvox

11/20/2001 02:30:20 PM

We have Christians here who have never visited a Muslim country and are making claims that Christians are killed in them. To any one of you, come to...let's say Pakistan and see for your self. We Muslim are no dumb yokels like you. We are taught "rawadary" tolerance and humanity since aur early childhood. We celebrate Christmas with our Christian brothers and sisters, Diwali with are Hindus and Norouz with our Parsi borthers and sister. How many of you celebrate Eid with us, or better yet know what it is.

greenvox

11/20/2001 02:21:32 PM

...and I still dont think your religion is evil.

greenvox

11/20/2001 02:20:39 PM

To Billy Graham and his followers: The horror of your religion's atrocities against humanity in Bosnia, Kosovo, Palestine, and Lebanon are not that old. Your colleagues in faith killed millions of Muslim men, women and children, just because they were infidels to you. You raped women and girls just because they were Muslim. Do you think the Muslim Ummah(community) can forget it. You wanna blame yourself for something. Catch this.

sagenav

11/20/2001 02:11:44 PM

stevejd: No president should speak religiously for the U.S. We have no established religion in this country. Bush should speak diplomatically for the country, not for his personal religious beliefs. BTW: being a Christian does not mean that you HAVE to be a closed minded bigot. Which happens to be a phenomenon developed by later Christians, for the Jesus I know about certainly was not.

huckfinn

11/20/2001 02:07:37 PM

stevejd: According to the beliefs of most Christians Muslims are on their way to burn in Hell forever. Not because of any bad things they might have done but because they have not accepted Jesus. No. The Bible clearly teaches that all have brought just condemnation upon themselves by their sin. Hell is earned; salvation is a gift. See Rom. 3:23 & 6:23.

uleyma

11/20/2001 02:02:33 PM

phogan just posted: >>> At a time when you would think clergy would be acting as did Fr Mychal Judge... <<< There is a true saint for our times. Franciscan friar, chaplain of the Fire Dept., was giving the last rites to a fallen fireman killed by a falling body from the WTC. Fr Judge was himself killed by falling debris. His helmet has just been delivered to His Holiness Pope John Paul II in the Vatican.

uleyma

11/20/2001 01:52:21 PM

Allah has helped you guys out, and now when you confront Unbelievers, well, God will send thousands of angels to really do a job on them, even pulling out their fingernails. Just read your copy of the Holy Qur'an. Look at The Spoils of War (Al-Anfál), Surah 8, verses 9 & 10, 12 & 13: 9. Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: "I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks." 10. Allah made it but a message of hope, and an assurance to your hearts: there is no help except from Allah: and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. 12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels with the message: "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." 13. This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: if any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

phogan

11/20/2001 01:51:35 PM

Well, young gRaham like young Bush is a drunk who never got any help for his problem. trust me , when drunks dont get the proper help, they act out. Graham has never,again like Bush, been known for being very bright,{or actually, bright at all}, and his comments bear his basic ignorance. At a time when you would think clergy would be acting as did Fr Mychal Judge,we get Fallwell and Robertson and now boy Graham. Sigh.heavy,heavy sigh. I guess in times like these, you become who you really are...

stevejd

11/20/2001 01:44:36 PM

I'd like to bring up another question. Are President Bush and other Christians really hypocrites when they say good things about Islam? According to the beliefs of most Christians Muslims are on their way to burn in Hell forever. Not because of any bad things they might have done but because they have not accepted Jesus. What if Muslims (and Jews and others too) feel this attitude from Bush and other Western leaders? Are they going to want to be friends with us? And if we compromise the expression of our religious beliefs to gain political ends what does this say about us? Can other nations trust us?

uleyma

11/20/2001 01:39:17 PM

Make friends with Unbelievers? Not on your life! Pick up your copy of the Holy Qur'an and read: The Women (An-Nisáa), Surah Four, verses 87-89: 87. Allah. There is no god but He; surely He will gather you together against the Day of Judgment, about which there is no doubt. And whose word can be truer than Allah's? 88. Why should you be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah has charged them for their evil deeds. Would you guide those whom Allah has thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah has thrown out of the Way, never shall you find the Way. 89. They but wish that you should reject the Faith, as they do, and thus you would be on the same footing as they. So take not friends from their ranks until they flee from what is forbidden in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them; and, in any case, take no friends or helpers from their ranks.

uleyma

11/20/2001 01:35:32 PM

Osama bin Ladin in his e-mail to the Pakistani new media on Sunday, Sept 16th, said in pertinent part relative to us in this discussion: Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: 'But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem'; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said, 'I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.'

uleyma

11/20/2001 01:33:05 PM

Attention is called to The Spoils of War (Al-Anfál), Surah 8, verses 36 to 39: 36. The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder man from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have only regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together in The Fire; 37. In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into The Fire. They will be the ones to have lost. 38. Say to the Infidels: if now they desist from their unbelief, their now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return to their unbelief and persist in it, the punishment of the ancients who have gone before them, looms ahead of them. 39. And fight on against the unbelievers until there is no more persecution, and everybody’s religion becomes Allah's in its entirety; but if they cease, verily Allah does see all that they do.

re-invented

11/20/2001 01:31:02 PM

I couldn't even finish reading the rest of this article...seeing such propoganda hurts so much :( Neslon Mandela spoke on my campus last week, and he made an excellent point: Blame the people who did this, not the religion. The people may have been doing the act in the name of a religion, but it makes them hypocrites. After the OK bombings, did we go around judging/doubting white men? NO! In fact, in the Koran, it clearly states that we should not bother "the Christians or the Jews" for we will all be judged accordingly. It stresses doing good in this world. If I find the scripture I will post which one I am talking about. At any rate, the main point is to realize that the people who do these crimes are radicals who have a distorted vision of Islam that is not shared by ALL muslims. A true Muslim would never bow down to such behavior.

sagenav

11/20/2001 01:19:33 PM

Dissent deserves a place. However comments that undermine peace deserve harsh criticism.

wernestf

11/20/2001 12:44:33 PM

PS: It is difficult to read posts on this narrow width unless one keeps the post narrow. Troublesome to have to manipulate the side bar.

wernestf

11/20/2001 12:41:31 PM

So...Graham has dared to say what many think but want to remain on the safe side when PC is desired. We should still give dissent its deserved place.

sagenav

11/20/2001 12:36:29 PM

Talk to many evangelicals and you will find that they are either ignorant of Christian history or deny it. Graham is just another example of this. His kind is really an embarrassment to Christianity.

obfuscate

11/20/2001 12:18:39 PM

paulaedwina, Continuing with the same non-sensical logic of Graham, we can say: "It wasn't Muslims who slaughtered Native Americans using among other weapons Biological Warfare (Smallpox). It was American Protestants" Nobody has a monopoly on evil OR goodness.

paulaedwina

11/20/2001 12:14:15 PM

"It wasn't Methodists flying into those buildings, it wasn't Lutherans," he said. "It was an attack on this country by people of the Islamic faith." By that same logic can we then condemn christianity for right-to-lifers who kill abortion doctors and blow up women's clinics? How about regular christian folks who hold up banks, do murder or beat their wives? Over simplified poppycock. Color me surprised.

msb

11/20/2001 12:08:50 PM

Mr. Franklin clearly showed himself to be another bigot in the tradition of Paterson and Falwell and this, of course, does not bode well for the cause of peace under the present circumstances. Clearly, Mr Franklin has as much a grasp on the truth when it comes to the religion of Islam and its holy book as would've the enemies of Jesus among the hypocrites who accused him of performing his signs and miracles by the power of Satan. Or maybe Mr. Franklin needs to take a closer look at the religion of Islam in the light of his own scriptures, then he might, again he might, discover that prophet Muhammad is none other than the "Spirit of Truth" promised by Jesus and Islam is the awaited earthly kingdom of God. I pray that the Almighty God open the eyes of Mr. Franklin and his likes to the truth but then they may have to humble themselves first and do away with much of their hate and the prejudices that are keeping them hopelessly blind.

godboy30

11/20/2001 12:07:12 PM

If the Koran teaches that infidels should be killed then that is different from Christians who killed Muslims, because the Bible does not teach killing Muslims. Christians have done many bad things, no doubt, but bad things done in the name of Christ are clearly against his teachings.

huckfinn

11/20/2001 12:06:21 PM

The New Testament depicts Jesus preaching that those who follow him should abandon their families. Jesus often used hyperbole to make a point. He clearly taught that devotion to him should come before any other loyalty, including family. I don't see that as a problem. The New Testament explicitly condemns the use of violence to advance or even defend the Christian faith. I would like to hear from Muslims about the Koran's teaching on treatment of ex-Muslims.

Daveykins_FoxFire

11/20/2001 12:04:16 PM

While the extreme fringes of Islam--as in Christianity or any other religion--are definitely violent, and the handfull of leaders in this fringe can be both wicked and violent, I'll continue to say that it should not be said for the entireity of any religion, especially the two religions I mentioned. And for Frankie's comments, please understand and may the Muslims take that in with this light; Unlike Islam, Christanity does have the 'tell the world about Christ, and his message of eternal peace' clause in their beliefs. Unfortunately Christ has the same problems with those he's forced to call his own as Mohammad does.

NANNIE

11/20/2001 11:54:38 AM

I really don't appreciate having my posts de- leted! Why was it re- moved?

RachelAB

11/20/2001 11:48:02 AM

Another interesting historical tidbit: “Thus the Purdah system [Full face veiling] is neither of Islamic nor Arabian origin. It is of Zoroastrian Persian, and Christian Byzantine origin. It has nothing to do with the religion of Islam, and, for practical reasons, it has never been adopted by the great majority of Muslim women....The Purdah system is not a part of the Islamic law.” And “The head-veil, on the other hand, is universal.” You can read more about this at http://www.islamfortoday.com/niqaab.htm.

lucilius

11/20/2001 11:46:51 AM

Scappoose john is very close to the truth. The Bible teaches hatred and vengeance; it also teaches love and forgiveness. The Quran preaches slaughter and zealotry; it also preaches peace and compassion. Fundamentalists from both traditions pick out the nastiest parts they can find to justify their blind hate. But I don't agree that we can just pick and choose the passages we like -- not if we also claim that either book is divinely inspired or inerrant. While parts of both contain some of the finest sentiments of humankind, other passages show all too clearly the imprint of the often confused, forgetful, vengeful men who wrote them.

scappoose_john

11/20/2001 11:25:24 AM

Oops, I meant to write "prescribes" rather than "proscribes."

scappoose_john

11/20/2001 11:23:55 AM

The Old Testament proscribes death for "offenses" as varied as disobeying one's parents to homosexuality, The New Testament depicts Jesus preaching that those who follow him should abandon their families. The Koran gives examples of when "infidels" may be killed. These are large and ancient books that virtually nobody perfectly understands. As some material contradicts other material, we are forced to pick and choose what parts to follow and what to ignore. Some people pick different parts than others. Every religion has had monstrosities committed in it's name. That does not make the religion evil, only those who commit or advocate such acts.

RachelAB

11/20/2001 11:20:01 AM

Martin Luther, the "true" Christian, said: "I should have no compassion on these witches; I should burn them all." The European witch hunt killed as many as 6 million people, mostly women. I do not know if Protestants were involved in the inquisition but they were involved in the witch hunt that grew out of the Inquisition and was part of it. The last "witch" burned in Europe died in 1792 in Poland, possibly even later (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_burn.htm). It saddens me to read that many people demonize other religions out of pure ignorance and don't remember the history of their own religion.

huckfinn

11/20/2001 11:17:29 AM

I'm no expert on the Koran, but I can't imagine that it condones the type of heinous mass murder perpetrated on 9/11. However, to my knowledge, it does teach that "apostates" (those who decide that Islam is not true) should be killed.

Watson

11/20/2001 11:03:00 AM

Franklin Graham just screwed himself! He's probably now in the same boat as Jerry Falwell. His father, Billy Graham would not have been so ignorant and judgemental. I'm so glad Franklin is following the advise of Jesus when he said "Do not judge and you will not be judged. Do not condemn and you will not be condemned." (Luke 6:37) Graham said "I don't believe this is a wonderful, peaceful religion" and "When you read the Koran and you read the verses from the Koran, it instructs the killing of the infidel, for those that are non-Muslim" I guess Franklin didn't come accross the quote "Be at peace with those who are at peace" or the quote saying that it doesn't matter whether one is Christian, Jew, or Muslim, what matters is that they worship God.

zenguin

11/20/2001 10:48:25 AM

You can no more blame all Islam for terrorist extremists than you can blame all Christianity for the KKK or countrywide gay-bashing. Anyone can focus on specific passages from a holy text to try to rationalize their unholy actions, but that is an indictment of the individual, not the religion or its god. Franklin Graham demonstrated a profound failure of judgement and wisdom when he made remarks out of ignorance. He is sadly veering away from his father's benevolent footsteps.

mohammed.mussulman

11/20/2001 08:15:41 AM

Bismi Allah. Hello Skiboo, Female circumcision is NOT Islamic. The "Ask the Imam" section on Beliefnet addressed this issue, and I invite you to read it. Basically, it is a cultural practice, and I have heard of instances in the Phillipines where this is committed on Catholic women. So... Stoning women for being raped is also un-Islamic. Women have rights in Islam, are not blamed for original sin, and have the right to divorce their husbands if they have just cause. It is the man who committed the rape that should be stoned, not the woman. Women have a right to education in Islam, and there have been many notable Islamic scholars and Qur'an reciters that have been women. Women have the right to choose their own husbands. Etc. I invite you to learn more about Islam, and not just what they tell you on television. We have a duty to educate ourselves. Don't just accept what the media feeds you and believe it's gospel. Peace be upon you.

shaner

11/20/2001 07:52:59 AM

Dialogue such as Franklin Graham's only promotes divisiveness between people and faiths, I for one, am greatly disturbed by it, I seriously doubt his father would ever make such a statement. It's not very Christian and it smacks of ignorance.

monotheist

11/20/2001 07:49:35 AM

Part deux...(yes, I'm wordy)... Franklin needs to pull out a copy of the Qur'an--and actually read it. (Rather than relying on heresay.) This is something he must do, if he truly wants to pick up his father's mantle as an evangelist. He sadly, many Muslims have stopped being the leader in women's rights. He'll discover that Muslims believe that Jesus was one of the great prophets--born of a virgin, and coming back in the end times according to the Qur'an. He'd discover a lot that would help him in his cause..as well as help him to relate to people of different faith's...rather than inflaming many. Do his statements anger me as a Muslim?? No, they just make me sad--like the ignorant comments many Muslims make about Christianity and Judaism. Oh well. Peace.

monotheist

11/20/2001 07:48:14 AM

I was really disappointed to hear that Franklin Graham made such remarks. It is my hope, that he will take this opportunity to educate himself further about Islam. Graham is not the only one guilty of ignorance. I know Muslims and Jews as well, who are all ignorant about other faiths. Twill not win many Muslims for Jesus if he attacks their faith. If he does actually read the Qur'an, he will discover that on a page by page basis--Islam gives Muslim women more rights than the Bible does. Yet his ignorance harms them all.

cuileann

11/20/2001 07:29:11 AM

The problem with Muslim countries is not that they are Muslim, but that most of them were colonized and exploited by Eurorean countires for so long. If you look at South America a few years ago, Africa now and parts of the Middle East, you'll see countries that were destablized by outsiders and then left to fend for themselves. Given time the region will probably stablize more and give way to more democratic systems. Look at Iran, ten years ago it was ruled by fundamentalists and now it is in the process of slowly mellowing out while still retaining its Islam roots.

Diane.M

11/20/2001 07:22:29 AM

Fallwell, Robertson, Graham. Maybe the enemy isn't the Taliban, but white, Protestant preachers. Yeah right, they pilot planes into buildings and kill thousands of innocent people. All in the name of God. As much as I disagree with Fallwell, and Robertson we have something in this country called free speech. If you or I don't like it that's life. As for Graham's comments maybe he is pointing out what happens to Christians in so called peacefull Muslim countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan. Those countries have some "humane and peacefull " ways of dealing with people who are not Muslim.

Skiboo

11/20/2001 07:21:06 AM

Tired, because it seems that fighting for basic human rights seems to get us nowhere, and sad because everyone needs to be treated with a basic human respect and dignity (irrespective of your religion). What has happened in Christianity's history, terrible though it may be, does not give Muslims the right to treat their women they way they do, or to try and convert all to Islam, or to fly two planes into the WTC & one into the Pentagon. Would I convert to Islam? I'd rather be a Christian and be blamed for PAST atrocities, than to be a Muslim and be part of a religion that perpetrates CURRENT atrocities.

Skiboo

11/20/2001 07:17:33 AM

...And, obviously Christianity came through Jesus Christ (i.e. through Judaism). However, having said that, I cannot agree with female circumcision, not allowing women to attend schools, throwing acid on their faces if they turn down a marriage proposal, stoning a woman if she is raped, etc., neither can I condone any of these in any other religion (if other religions had to practice such atrocities). I know plenty of peace-loving muslims, but hearing of these things in foreign countries makes me tired, and sad...

Skiboo

11/20/2001 07:13:34 AM

greenvox, yeah, Christians have done terrible things throughout history, but does that give liberty to Islam to do what they are today doing? Unfortunately, as much as what I would love to agree with Graham, Islam does have its root with Judaism and Christianity, and therefore is the same G-d (maybe just a different expression of faith). Abraham, Isaac and Jacob became the fathers of Judaism and Islam was started through Ishmael, Abraham's son with a concubine. Frightening...

Narsil

11/20/2001 06:40:15 AM

greenvox saith: 'Your fore-fathers such as William Jefferson and Samual Pepys are examples of your discrimination for women.' Not 'zactly sure who William Jefferson is, or just what was so bad about ol' Pepys, but... am I misreading this, or is a Muslim talking about how sexist Christianity is? I'd quote a proverb about pots and kettles, but no doubt I'd be accused of massacring millions of kitchen implements.

salvo

11/20/2001 06:26:10 AM

I agree wholeheartedly with Graham's message. Islam is a religion borne of evil. One merely needs to read the Hadith's on the life of Mohammad or read the Quran's exortations to slay unbelievers wherever they find them. This is of course not to say that Muslims themselves are evil. Many choose to forget or overlook the deflamatory passages, the wicked life of Mohammad or the evil being inflicted on the world due to the call of Islam.

greenvox

11/20/2001 04:53:22 AM

...But do i consider your religion evil, freaking NO!!! YOU KNOW WHY, because i know it, unlike you, who make false claims of reading the Koran.

greenvox

11/20/2001 04:51:40 AM

(...i meant slayings of muslim... in point 1.)

greenvox

11/20/2001 04:50:09 AM

To Mr. Graham and his followers, before looking at Islam look at your own religion's atrocities. 1. You commited the worst genocides in the history of mankind including saying millions of Muslim women, men and children in the Inquisition in Spain. 2. Massacre of literally millions of Muslim men, women and children in Bosnia and Kosovo. The collectinve graves are evindence. 3. You massacred millions in Ireland under Cronwell. 4. You massacred thousands under Bloody Mary. 5. You massacred hundreds of thousands in the first crusade suring the capture of Jeruselam. 6. Your sister state Israel is a recognized Aparthied State. 7. You massacred millions in colonized India between 1857 and 1947. 8. You sowed the seeds of hatred in Kashmir, and Palestine in 1947 and 1948. 9. You shaughtered over 10 million African slaves throughout American History. 10. Your fore-fathers such as William Jefferson and Samual Pepys are examples of your discrimination for women.

DonaQuixote

11/20/2001 03:15:44 AM

And here's my favorite passage, for all those Christians out there raising Cain over the "danger" of Islam to Christians: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,--any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,--on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. -Qur'an, Al-Ma'idah, Surah 5:69

DonaQuixote

11/20/2001 03:14:25 AM

Also, the root of "Muslim" in Arabic is also the root of "Salaam," meaning peace! And as for the 1 billion Muslims out there putting these words into actions, I'd say the millions who have nothing to do with terrorism far outweigh the few thousand who do. And as far as oppressive governements are concerned, the millions who are oppressed by them cannot be painted with the same brush as the few hundred who do the oppressing. That is no way to judge a religion. Also, there are in fact some quasi-modern, non-Theocratic governments, such as Turkey. Egypt was also that way until recent decades. It is not fair to judge a religion or a people based on the rule of governements that may be oppresive or coercive, and whose motivations for being so may have more to do with power and money than Allah.

DonaQuixote

11/20/2001 03:08:45 AM

continued . . . The Qur'an on living peacefully with people of other faiths: [Quran 60:8]"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable." [Quran 4:90]"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them." [8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient. Re forceful conversion: [Quran 2:256] "There shall be no compulsion in religion...". Re people who commit evil in the name of religion: [Quran 7:28] They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"

DonaQuixote

11/20/2001 03:08:11 AM

O.k., let's start with the Qur'an, shall we. The Qur'an on violence: [Quran 5:32] "......, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people..." [Quran 6:151] "...... You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand." [2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

Violin27

11/20/2001 01:49:26 AM

I believe there are a great many "Christians" and "Muslims" who would be better suited to a religion called Arrogance, as they seem so intent upon recognizing their belief as the only valid one. Neither Christianity nor Islam is the religion it once was. Religion evolves, just as man has evolved, and (hopefully) will continue to evolve. When things don't evolve, they become extinct. I believe most people, regardless of their religious belief, simply want to live in freedom and peace with one another. Unfortunately, die-hard moderates get precious little air time.

juliosevero

11/20/2001 01:33:28 AM

I have to agree with Mr. Graham. I have read the Koran and I can say that Islam is a religion of hate, lies, oppression and murders. It has killed Christians and other innocent people in the Muslim countries throughout the world. This is a very real fact.

cleocat

11/20/2001 12:46:17 AM

Wow! I kinda thought the people on Beliefnet would be a more open-minded, compassionate, truth-seeking bunch. Instead we've got self-righteous people making sweeping denunciations of Muslims, and someone who thinks Catholics aren't Christian. Yikes. With apologies to those of you who offered a more perceptive view.

NANNIE

11/20/2001 12:21:54 AM

happyfactory3001, Amen! to that. I quote from this article: But now frank- lin is in trouble with political friends for com- ments made re- cently." I doubt very seriously that Franklin gives a "big fat hairball." To quote that great philosopher Garfield the cat. What he has said is the truth. And anyone that doesn't believe it should read the Quran.

rfisher

11/20/2001 12:19:56 AM

I understand that not everyone who claims to be a Muslim subscribes to the Islam as described by Graham, but we cannot deny the fact that the vast majority of "practicing" Muslims do not embrace the peaceful religion as described by President Bush. In fact it seems that there are very few who practice the Islam that Bush speaks about. It is one thing to have a nice theory and then to project it onto another group, theory is great but I ask you to look at practice. You can expound upon the text and tell me it means whatever you wish but right now I am far more concerned with how one billion plus people put it into action. Next to the 9-11 incident mere academic discourse is insufficient.

rfisher

11/20/2001 12:19:43 AM

Maybe a projection backwards of contemporary thought illuminates an Islam of peace. In practice it has never seemed to work like the popular image suggests. Look at any nation under Islamic rule and you will not find even the most basic of human rights. Islam today is still looking at the world through a medieval mindset at best. Do these facts justify the past wrongs of other religions? NO!! By the same token neither do the past wrongs of other religions excuse the current worldview of Islam.

Aleyna

11/20/2001 12:15:09 AM

happyfactory3001.. you watch too many movies, you have no idea what Islam is about.. "protestant, real Christians"? Catholics don't believe in Christ? or is it just my imagination... Throughout history people have used religion as a basis for killing others and conquering territories (how about slavery (of black and Native Americans), I think that was justified as "puting the heathens in their place"?) That does not mean that religion is evil, it is the people that use religion as a tool for their propaganda! I can take any religious book and find a call to war, if I really want to! We need to be open minded and not be subject to propaganda of any kind!

happyfactory3001

11/19/2001 11:54:20 PM

I think all you people need to read the history of Christianity. Christianity is NOT a violent relegion. The horrible acts of the Crusades and Inquisition were not those of Christians. These were medieval Roman Catholics, who were none other than power-hungry pagans who could say a few Hail Marys and carry a little cross and think they were holy. They went against nearly every teaching of the Bible. Who were the ones who felt the most pain in the Inquisition? The Protestants, the real Christians. Who started the holy wars between Islam and Catholicism? The Muslims did. Islam is a religion of evil. Don't let anyone tell you differently. Most American Muslims aren't real Muslims--just ast most American Christians aren't real Christians--and they don't know what Islam is all about. Bin Laden is a good Muslim. The Taliban keeps the Islamic laws very well. If Islam is good, why don't we invite the Taliban to come rule our country? There is no peace in Islam. There is no peace but in Christ.

dancing_orchid

11/19/2001 11:32:52 PM

Franklin Graham was at the memorial the Sunday after the Columbine Highschool killings, and he was very much a disappointment. He is trying to be a big preacher by making statements that are more akin to those of Jerry Falwell than those of his more diplomatic father.

jazzybhikku

11/19/2001 10:34:26 PM

::::picks nose:::::

Aleyna

11/19/2001 10:24:17 PM

big suprise!!! white protestant america -- so happy to trash Islam!!! oh... don't get me started on violence in the name of Christianity!!!

liber3686

11/19/2001 10:16:58 PM

Okay, okay, quit arguing about whether Christianity is violent or Islam is. I'll clear it up. BOTH are VERY violent religions. If you don't believe me, just read their holy books.

solafides

11/19/2001 09:41:18 PM

Everybody knows the atrocities committed in the name of "Christianity." Anyone who has read the Bible also knows that these atrocities are completely at odds with what the Bible teaches. Now, can anybody say the same thing about the Koran? Are these terrorist attacks at odds with what the Koran teaches? Please do not respond unless you have citations from the Koran. Nobody cares about what you "think" or "feel". Just the facts, please. If you cannot do this, then to disagree with something you have no knowledge about is beneath contempt (that goes for George W., too). After your replies I will be happy to show you from the Koran precisely why Graham is right.

Gwyddion9

11/19/2001 09:26:41 PM

Yeah right. Sorry, i see evangelical christians as being violent and wicked. like history has shown us before, christians will try to convert and if not, demonize what ever it is and try to destroy it. so much for a religion of Love.

purpleku69

11/19/2001 09:22:52 PM

Fallwell, Robertson, Graham. Maybe the enemy isn't the Taliban, but white, Protestant preachers.

Curious-One

11/19/2001 08:40:26 PM

Of all the bunch Islam probably does lend itself more to xenophobia, based on faith. However - average Americans take ignorance to new levels. In the land of the internet 90% don't have a clue what is happening in the real world.

arbuckle

11/19/2001 07:55:47 PM

[In Gomer Pyle-style voice] "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!"

petofi

11/19/2001 07:54:03 PM

I think Franklin Graham needs to study the history of Christianity. Apparently, he has never heard of the Inquisition. Or maybe just a good reading of the Old Testament, where Yahweh is pictured as a jealous tribal god, advocating genocide against the non-Hebrews.

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