karmahitsdogma

11/03/2004 08:58:38 PM

Ladies and Gentleman, please remember your history. Palestinian "refugees" were forced to become refugees by their Arab leaders during their illegal war against the new, U.N. sanctioned state of Israel in 1948. (See "From Time Immemorial", Joan Peters available at amazon.com for the documents). It is not "occupied territory" (at least not by Israel), but it is territory the U.N. demanded a cease fire from before Israel had a chance to complete it's defense. What other country has been stopped in it's tracks when defending itself? What if an international organization had stopped the new United States during its war of independence at only say, Massachusetts and Vermont? Everything else was "occupied territory". We'd still be fighting our war of independence with some bureaucratic organization today. By the way, the city of Mecca was founded by Jews, they lived there for hundreds of years before it was appropriated by Muslims. (Read, "Jews were slaughtered, forced out, their property seized".)

YahyaBergum

03/10/2004 12:59:06 PM

I am certainly against "Divestment." For one thing (in my opinion) it amounts to an act of betrayal -- tantamount to an act of war, if it involves any sort of government participation. For another thing, there is a great many, promising, peace-promoting ventures that simply happen to be headquartered in Israel. Forcing a friend into bankruptcy (in my opinion) does not seem like an especially rational way to discourage him from cheating in business dealings. Now then, I do happen to be FOR "responsible investing" -- particularly if it involves any sort of participation by the U.S. Treasury Department. (Shalom!)

SONOFMAN2000

11/18/2003 05:54:40 PM

Cont.... However now, we the people of my nation are standing behind our President in the war against terrorism, you don't have to agree with us nor do we want your 2 cent about the matter, we are alone and that's ok, in the history of my nation we always stand alone during hard times, and that's why it is the land of the free and the home of the brave. May G-d bless America, England and Israel.

SONOFMAN2000

11/18/2003 05:44:54 PM

To mykal100, whatever your views are of my nation and President as being corrupted, just understand that we, the people of United States of America don't always agree with the our government or it's action whether military or political, United States is more than military bullies and corrupted politicians. It is a nation of people who change gov. policy for the better, only one time in our history when we couldn't elect our president and representative to the nations afar, that was in 2000 election. cont...

SONOFMAN2000

11/18/2003 05:31:19 PM

To mykal100, excuse the extra statement, my computer was slow. To disbelieve in demons as a myth is a matter of choice, however to say that demons is superstition as though you know this for a fact, is a ego-centric response, because you don't know for certain if they don't exist. Because you are secular, to you it would be foolish to acknowledge existence of a spiritual being, correct? However, just because you are a secular it doesn't mean that what you find as a myth is a myth. I believe in truth, because apart from any other philosophy or thoughts it has the power of cause and effects, furthermore the western thought is limited and incomplete and worst it is an egocentric attempted to explain the unexplainable by denying it's existence. Politically correctness is hypocritical because it pervent true feelings from being express, it doesn't address the need to challenge what is false and incorrectness, it is a philosophy that bounds a person's resolve to oppose corruptions and perversion in society.

mykal100

11/14/2003 02:01:56 PM

and to say that demons are real is also a matter of opinion. Do you have a point? But... to the majority, all talk of demons is either something in movies, or a belief on the level of a rabbits foot. Folks are not interested in sending there children out to fight what the paranoid few call demons. You use the word "secular" like its the name of a religion or something. Being secular means not allowing my personal beliefs to affect the quality of life or rights of another. Our Catholic PM is a perfect example with the gay marriage issue. The Vatican was harrassing all Canadian Catholic MP's to oppose this, yet our PM and many MP's still supported gay marriages regardless of the Vatican's threats.

mykal100

11/14/2003 01:55:35 PM

I never denied that Palestinians were cheering, but maybe if your were raised as a Palestinian in Israeli-occupied/US-funded misery, maybe you'd cheer too. re: Afghanistan. All I can say is that now your gov't can build that pipeline your country wanted. And Osama Bin Laden, perhaps your gov't shouldn't have trained, supplied, and funded him, no? Certainly Canada would not turn away from those in need, but I firmly believe that the US govt feels it has the "right" to take and consume whatever it wants. I honestly believe your government would ensure swimming pools were filled before sharing with others. My point is that the US will take what it wants from others, if the "others" don't co-operate your government will spin "them" into "demons". It's an old tactic, and one utilized many times by the US government.

mykal100

11/14/2003 01:51:49 PM

First off, I view Americans as my brethren, and many of you are as disgusted and victimized by your government as the rest of the world. And since your Prez was "selected" and not "elected", your people are not to blame. As far as I know, seeing as Canada doesn't supply the terrorism of the Israeli government, that many of these Islamic states have no beef with us. If anything, we are probably more at risk for being your friends (thankfully, our PM, the best one we've had to date, distanced our country from the US's aggression towards the middle east). If you watch the news, you've undoubtably heard that your government had warning that wasn't acted upon. Just because US border cops let terrorists into the US, don't blame Canada (where do you think all your flights were diverted to, BTW?). cont

SONOFMAN2000

11/14/2003 01:33:22 PM

To mykal, to say demons are superstitions is a matter of opinion, which you are entitle to, than facts which you don't know. It is presumptious (to say the least) that someone living in this age to call something which been around for countless generation that they don't fully understand as something of a myth. If you are secular, than good for you, but being secular doesn't equal being certain about everything especially when concerning spiritual matter. Don't be so ego-centric.

SONOFMAN2000

11/14/2003 01:17:23 PM

To Lindo, your statement on 11-11-03, I forgot what time, makes sense that we should be concern about the innocent people all over the world, but who are their champion for Justice? Should it be Terrorists? Should the champion their cause be further through terrorism? Furthermore, the nation of USA and Christian organizations are in all parts of the world trying to relieve the poor and the oppressed from their own ditator government who failed time again to address the needs of their people. I'm one those americans who not only cared for my own but also for people from other nations. I cansay I've done something for others who are suffering. If I couldn't be there myself to help, I supported other who can. I'm not just angry, I also care too.

SONOFMAN2000

11/14/2003 12:56:35 PM

To mykal, I can't believe that you and Canada would deny any human or animal a drink of water just because there are not from Canada. Water and food are not exclusively your's or your nation to withold from human beings, I guess by the way you defend terrorists it shouldn't surprise me that you would be petty enough to witheld water from anyone asking you for a drink. And you know what? You would be a terrorist from denying a drink to anyone thirsty just because that are not from your nation.

SONOFMAN2000

11/14/2003 12:46:10 PM

To Mykal, you mention something concerning the atomic bomb dropped on Japan during WW2, of course american cheering can be looked as cheering for the dead however, if USA didn't dropped the bomb, where would our nation and the world be today? If we didn't fight Germany and didn't built the atomic bomb before the Nazi did, would you be alive to be an arm-chair monday morning quaterback in discussing war and peace? And by the way... We come a long way from cheering of other people's miseries.

SONOFMAN2000

11/14/2003 12:22:23 PM

To mykal and Lindo, I would like to know what's your solution to fighting terrorists other than war.

SONOFMAN2000

11/14/2003 12:16:50 PM

To lindo, you're right about the statement about it's either with us or against us because there is no middle ground. You're at a cross road in your life where you need to make a choice and choose your stand. If you choose to stand up to evil in our time then you can make a proactive difference, if you choose to do nothing then one day you may have to account your decision to a higher power, because even though you not obligated to be the savior of the world, you also not to detest from trying to make it so. You do have a responsiblity to our world and what you choose to do will make it better or worst. I'm not saying to pick up weapons and kill, but some war are moral and others are not. My choice is to defend myself and the freedom we have from enemies within and without, I'm not going to sit still while innocent people are getting killed for nothing because of a stupid religion of intolerance. You don't have to agree with me, just respect it and move out of our way.

SONOFMAN2000

11/14/2003 12:01:01 PM

To mykal, what Afghanistan? Did you know that they wouldn't hand Osama Bin Laden to justice? What about Syria, Iran, Yemem and Jordan? Aren't they anti-American and Israel? Are you serious about the few muslim crap theory? And also thank you for your sympathy concerning my experience of 09-11-01, that's been the only decent thing you said to me. I'm not going to get into a slander fest with you, because you're just a Canadian and what happen in the US doesn't concern you a bit, I don't expect you to understand the sentiment we have concerning Terrorism and Islam. I hope that you will never experience the terror and anguish we experience and that your nation continue to live in peace free from terrorism, because as a arm chair quaterback of discussing peace and how we should be in the face of war, I wouldn't want you to have to seriously deal with the threat on your life and your fellow others.

SONOFMAN2000

11/14/2003 11:48:00 AM

To mykal, do you truly feel threaten by USA than any islamic country? I don't understand how you do when it was Canada that allow islamic hijackers to enter the USA from your nation to fly the planes into the WTC and the pentagon, if anything USA should be afraid of your nation allow terrorist to walk free among you ALL. As for the footage of palestinians celebrating in the street after the collapse of the WTC, that was not a past footage when a palestinain celebrating the collapse was quated saying that "we should go back there and do it again". As for the few muslims who are terrorist, let's really look into this... The one the son of the Iraqi Dictator was qoated saying that if US strike that 09-11-01 will be like a pinic when they strike. In Indonesia where the highest population of muslims live started persecuting christians....

mykal100

11/12/2003 10:58:47 AM

and the fact is, that as a Canadian, I feel more threatened by the US than by any Islamic country. Sure, all is peaceful now, but when Uncle Sam wants something from us that we don't want to give (like water), I am wondering how long it will take to label Canadians "terrorists".

mykal100

11/12/2003 10:56:27 AM

cont... Sorry to hear about your experiences, and I hope you can work out your anger issues. Palestinians cheering in the street is certainly distasteful (and some state that the footage you are referring to was actually recording in the past, having nothing to do with 911). It is distasteful, but from their POV, the USA contributes financially to their suffering. Did Americans celebrate when Japan surrendered, or did they have a moment of silence for the dead of Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Demons on live in the inside. Most folks are not interested in starting/engaging in wars for the superstitions of a few.

mykal100

11/12/2003 10:51:10 AM

To SonOfMan (a little presumptious BTW),,, Well, good, I'm glad you believe in self-defense. However, what are you defending yourself from, from what I hear, the US has found nothing that they claimed was there. Pre-emptive self-defense? I suppose you would also support "pre-emptively" punishing criminals, as well? It is true, we should not allow nations to destroy their own people and potentially the world. But.. this is the American government we're talking about, and most of the world is powerless to stop them.

lindo

11/11/2003 06:17:38 PM

"however when the way we live as American is changed as of result of that tragedy and the many lost of lives, I personally don't care what is going on over there, if anything they all (palestinians and islamic terrorists)" What about when innocent people abroad who had their "way of life" changed? Don't they matter? Or is it only the white skinned folk who count? Nice job also equating 1.4 billion people with terrorism. You really need to open your bigoted eyes. I'm done talking to you.

lindo

11/11/2003 06:17:33 PM

well it goes to show who you're standing with and it's not with the innocent people who died nor with those who are left behind to deal the issue that confronts us today - either with us or against us eh?, more mindless jingoism. Could it be that I'm with innocents and human beings who are opressed and wronged WHEREVER they may be?!! Be it NYC or Khandahar or El Salvador? Learn some history and look at the world a little bit, maybe you'll understand how close we human beings all are despite our religous, ethnic differences. Your "us" versus "them" thinking is what keeps you from seeing this.

lindo

11/11/2003 06:10:48 PM

I think its disgusting that you parade 9-11 as a moral justification for waging a war on an entire nation that WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT, i.e. Iraq. It would require some sense and a little bit of education to understand this, not a long winded self-justification of a wrong for a wrong- which is what you try to do. If you want to halt the terrorists then : 1) don't blame all muslims for the act of a few 2) find the ones responsible for the crime and punish them 3) understand that from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and from Mexico to the tip of Argentina, the USA has instilled dictators and opressors who were amenable to their policies at the expense of the will of the local people. What I'm saying is you are either a racist or clueless, not understanding that while I wholly agree 9-11 was a crime and wrong, no ifs ands or buts- there is a need for everyone to look at the world we live in and take responsibility for what we do wrong as a nation, people etc. as well as what we do right.

SONOFMAN2000

11/11/2003 04:18:10 PM

To conclude, you really said it all when you stated you don't care what I experience first hand, well it goes to show who you're standing with and it's not with the innocent people who died nor with those who are left behind to deal the issue that confronts us today. If you sincerely feel that USA is responsible for terrorist trageting civilians then maybe you should leave America and go settle in those Islamic countries that you sympathyzes with. Perhaps if 09-11-01 never happen I would take note of your statement and even voice my concern about it in union with you, however when the way we live as American is changed as of result of that tragedy and the many lost of lives, I personally don't care what is going on over there, if anything they all (palestinians and islamic terrorists) probably deserve it because they voice their so-called oppression with hate and death.

SONOFMAN2000

11/11/2003 04:05:19 PM

To lindo, I think you've miss the point. It's not about "you hit me first and I hit you last", it's about self-defense. We dealing with people who uses violence and fear to oppose and inflict on innocent people that have nothing to do with the issue in the middle east. Your point is, do nothing! Let Tyrant go to any nation and kill innocent people. Let Terrorists kill their own people and abuse their women and children, correct? What do you propose? What is your answer? By not responding to Nazism in Germany because people like yourself felt to better mind our own businesses, 6 million Jews were slaughtered that's not including 100 millions more, do you remember? Doing nothing is the same as the evil itself. If we don't respond to the danger at hand, we can kiss our world good bye. By the way I've never said that war create peace, I simply said that until peace is shared by everyone, war is necessay for survival.

lindo

11/11/2003 11:53:19 AM

So let me get this straight: party A attacks you, so you attack party B because the share some trait in common (Islam), and then you blame Islam for forcing YOU to start a pre-emptive war against party B (and maybe C, D ...)? When nations learn blah blah.. listen : when nations learn to treat all peoples with the same respect with which they would like to be treated maybe we can have some peace. I dont't care that you saw 9-11 first hand, you don't see the truth of the villany that your country has perpetrated, using 9-11 as an excuse. At least 10 times as many civilians have been killed since 9-11 by the US and Britian, than were killed in the WTC. Yes the WTC attack was a crime and we all cry for the innocents who have died, but I'm not so racist and arrogant so as not to see that mothers in Afghanistan or Iraq or Israel or Palestine feel the same pain when their children are blown to bits in front of their eyes. Wake up!

SONOFMAN2000

11/11/2003 09:51:45 AM

To conclude, we must acknowledge that the Islamic countries are not doing enough to eliminate terrorism from their mist, if anything, they are more concern about defending their faith and justifying what terrorist are doing than cleaning their own houses. This is the reason why the U.S. are involve these conflicts, when nations learn to be at peace with one another, only then can we enjoy peace again. Until that day, war is necessary in order to survive in our world, because doing nothing is as worst as committing terrorist acts in itself. Demons don't care how peaceful and tolerant you are, it only does what is natural for them to do, that is destroy.

SONOFMAN2000

11/11/2003 09:37:55 AM

In response to Mykal100 on 11-03-03, I don't believe in starting a war, but I do believe in self-defense. We can't just sit back and allow nations to destroy their own people and potentially the world. The true is, we have one world where we all live in, if we were in a ship and someone from their own cabin decides to sink the ship from their cabin, we can't do nothing because it would mean our own disaster. We live in a world where we can't mind own business because it would mean disaster for the world. Of course I hate war of any kind. I live in NYC, I remember 09-11-01 everyday, my kids went to school on that beautiful september day with the sky so clear, I remember seeing live when the second plane the other Tower. You can bet I'm still fuming about 3,000 death on that tragic day and the celebration by the Palestian people in the streets. We in the 21st. shouldn't be in war, we are suppose to progress and learn from our past history. continue on next post...

lindo

11/06/2003 01:52:04 PM

worth reading http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/11/06/middle_east/print.html

lindo

11/05/2003 05:51:47 PM

This is a skill that Dershowitz and all the Zionist apologists have learned and honed to perfection. sorry just want to clarify here..what I mean is that Dershowitz and the right wing amen corner are expert at blaming the victim and putting a rightous spin on their 'sides' actions, no matter what these actions might be. I am not saying that they have learned how to kill people all over the world.. I apologize for not reading my post before I hit the 'submit' button.

lindo

11/05/2003 05:45:01 PM

Israel has killed more civilians than the Palestinian's have, 3 times as many in fact. The second or third most powerful and advanced military in the world (IDF), and it can't kill less civilians than those it condemns for intentially targeting civilians (PA)? While we're at it, the US has intentionally targeted civilians, upto and including the war in Afghanistan, never mind Hiroshima and Nagasaki. According to the UN, the US and has killed over 10,000 civilians in Afghanistan and 5,000 in Iraq. So please spare us the moral high ground argument. Europeans, and their descendandt nations have killed more people around the world than any other people in the history of the world. They just always put a rightous spin on it. This is a skill that Dershowitz and all the Zionist apologists have learned and honed to perfection.

mykal100

11/04/2003 01:26:40 PM

How come the US continued firing missles into Iraq after the first Gulf war was over? If that's not terrorism, I'm not sure what is. Israel is racist because Gentiles are not free to make it their home.

Oisin718

11/04/2003 12:59:55 PM

Rigel: Terrorism does not work. 30 years of terrorism failed to create a unified Ireland. Terrorism is always and everywhere illegitimate and evil, and any cause that relies on terrorism to advance its goals has no legitimacy.

Oisin718

11/04/2003 12:58:13 PM

I see you make your claim that Israel is racist here, too. Please explain how this is so.

mykal100

11/04/2003 08:44:30 AM

What lesson is Israel trying to teach us? That is OK to be racist (so long as your not the one being descriminated against). It's baffling, as one would expect that many Jews, being victims of racism themselves, would be more sensitive when it comes to applying racism to others.

Rigel5740

11/03/2003 04:14:42 PM

CORRECTION: the U.S. deliberately killed civilians at least as late as 1945, but in any case, my central point was that the U.S. and Israel do not deliberately kill civilians now whereas the countries listed by the U.S. as supportive of terrorists do support groups that deliberately kill civilians. Sorry for the inaccuracy.

Rigel5740

11/03/2003 04:10:48 PM

Terrorism is used because terrorism works. The Arab world tried repeatedly to destroy Israel by means of conventional war, but they were unable to defeat Israel's superior military arsenal. Where the Arab governments have failed, terrorist organizations like the PLO, Hezbollah, and more recently Hamas have largely succeeded. (Btw, when I use the term "terrorism" I am referring specifically to the deliberate targeting and killing of noncombatants. The U.S. and Israel have killed civilians, but never deliberately (at least not since the U.S.'s war against the Native Americans.) It is also true that the Bush administration's use of the term terrorist often extends to include acts that would be considered legitimate if those acts were committed by groups justified in waging war against the U.S. Nonetheless, the United States is correct to place countries like Syria, Iran, and Saddam's Iraq on the list of terrorist-supporting countries.)

Rigel5740

11/03/2003 04:03:18 PM

(cont. from above) The number of innocent people these organizations have killed, while proportionately catastrophic compared with the U.S. losses on September 11, 2001 are trivial compared to other genocidal campaigns in history. However, the key to terrorism's success is not the people it kills, but the blame-the-victim mentality it generates against its target. Israel's responses to these attacks have generated worldwide sympathy for the Arab cause. When Israel attempts to arrest those responsible for the terrorist attacks, it is condemned by the world. When it tries various half-measures such as curfews and destroying the empty homes of terrorists, it is condemned by the world.

Rigel5740

11/03/2003 04:02:09 PM

(cont. from above) The success of terrorism in furthering the Arab cause can be seen in the fact that the UN has passed more resolutions against Israel than it has against Iraq, Iran, North Korea and China combined. If these resolutions against Israel even mention Muslim terrorism, it is only as an afterthought or to avoid a U.S. veto. Just recently, an EU poll showed that Europeans see Israel as the greatest threat to world peace (59%) versus 53% or less for other threats including Iran, North Korea, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the United States. That such an absurd claim can be held by over half of Europeans testifies to the enormous success of terrorism.

Rigel5740

11/03/2003 04:00:01 PM

(cont. from above) Another key to terrorism's success is its cowardice. Whether through suicide or by hiding in densely-populated civilian areas, terrorists try to guarantee that they will never die without taking innocent lives with them. If the world is ever to see an end to terrorism, the first step is to stop magnifying every misstep made by those acting in self-defense while ignoring the terrorism that requires those defensive measures in the first place.

mykal100

11/03/2003 03:08:15 PM

I agree that Iraq should not have nuclear weapons (which, apparantly they don't). However, I don't see why the world should trust the US (or Israeli) to have these "Weapons of Mass Destruction"? Sure, some Islamic countries do, and have done, terrible things. But the whole world knows that the US doesn't have the best record in these area either.

mykal100

11/03/2003 02:53:16 PM

Well SonOfMan.. I, for one, disagree with this bogus war on terrorism. Mainly because who is a terrorist is defined by the enemies of those terrorists. I am sure that many Iraqi's consider American soldiers to be terrorist's. All a matter of perspective I guess. I am sure I follow your logic that "violence doesn't work". Of course violence works, as is demonstrated by your proposal to nuke Islamic countries. Talking out of both sides of your mouth are you,,, you'd make a fine republican president. But do you want to know what the *real* definition of "terrorist" is? A "terrorist" is a name for whoever the US wants to pick a fight with.

SONOFMAN2000

11/01/2003 10:06:11 PM

From my understanding of the israelis and palestinains conflict and the 09-11-01 tragedy in the US, I feel the problem of terrorism and wars begins and ends with islamic terrorist. I feel that many Americans have forgotten the many people that died on that day on 09-11-01. Furthermore, Americans have forgotten the celebration of Palestinians people in the streets after the World Trade center collapsed. The true is, Israel is being singled out, by stupid, coward spineless so-called American majority and those around the world who disagree with the war on terrorism. When will we wake up and realize that you can't negotiate with demons? What it is going to take to get some back-bone and tell these terrorists that violence just don't work. Violence begets violence, terrorism won't work, it will only backfire. Perhap sending the Atomic bomb to those islamic countries that sponser terrorism will settle matters permanentally.

DuckInANoose

10/29/2002 12:05:37 PM

sipporah: "Most Israelis actually don't want occupation-it's an awful thing to have to administer to another people like that. But they also see no other way out. If Israel relaxes rules, Israeli civilians are murdered. If Israel enforces rules, Israeli civilians are murdered." Then why do they keep building more and more settlements in Palestinian territory?? This invalidates the argument about not wanting occupation. Furthermore, by migrating to settlements they FURTHER INCREASE their risk of attack.... If as you say all their actions are driven by security needs then their actions make no sense.

Dovidl

10/25/2002 08:39:11 AM

I didn't say you said it; the Arabs say it. "Ah, in other words the Israelis "had" to use violence to get their way. Sorry, I don't buy it." Ah, but the Arabs "have" to use violence to get their way... What my statement means is that for nonviolence to work, you must be dealing with people of law and conscience or else they will take advantage of it to eliminate you.

dplatt

10/24/2002 06:48:45 PM

"How about trying to treat people like human beings with full rights?" "Funny how this only applies to Arabs. " I never said that it does. Of course all citizens should have full rights. "I've always said that if there were an Arab Martin Luther King, there would be a Palestine; if there were an Israeli King, there would be no Israelis left alive." Ah, in other words the Israelis "had" to use violence to get their way. Sorry, I don't buy it. "All the Arab propaganda doesn't change that. By the way, are you all as concerned that the Kurds be restored to the Kurdistan that they once actually did have? " Of course the plight of the Kurds is regrettable, too. But the U.S. is ready to go to war with the Kurds' oprressors, while Israel is considered one of the U.S.'s closest allies. I resent attempts to place anti-semetic labels on anyone who dares criticize Israel. I realize that it is a complex issue, but the simple fact is that the Israeli government is making things worse, not better.

Dovidl

10/24/2002 04:21:41 PM

"How about trying to treat people like human beings with full rights?" Funny how this only applies to Arabs. I've always said that if there were an Arab Martin Luther King, there would be a Palestine; if there were an Israeli King, there would be no Israelis left alive. All the Arab propaganda doesn't change that. By the way, are you all as concerned that the Kurds be restored to the Kurdistan that they once actually did have?

kanzeon

10/23/2002 08:03:06 PM

Someone asked "How many of you have actually spoken with Isrealis?" I have- to quite a few. And guess what? I've spoken with Palestinians too. Frankly, the question is a bit insulting; it's kind of like asking "How many segregationists have you spoken with?" And frankly, while the Israelis I've spoken with seem convinced they need to carry out horrible policies to survive, it does not make them moral or any less horrible. It merely means they are deluded people.

dplatt

10/22/2002 12:22:29 PM

"Most people don't want occupation - it's an awful thing to have to administer to another people like that." How about trying to treat people like human beings with full rights? There were people in South Africa who thought that apartheid was awful but neccessary. All colonialists act as if they are merely defending themselves, or keeping the natives from getting restless. It's what Kipling called the White Man's Burden. What is frustrating for many non-Jews is that Jews, especially in the U.S., were at the forefront of the movements against discrimination in other cases (the civil rights movement in the South, the anti-apartheid movement). But they seem myopic when presented with their own injustices. How is denying people rights, destroying their homes, and placing them under curfews "self-defense?"

sipporah

10/22/2002 11:59:01 AM

You know, how many of you have actually been to Israel? How many of you have actually spoken with Isrealis? I'm betting few have done either. I've been there and have friends there. Most Israelis actually don't want occupation-it's an awful thing to have to administer to another people like that. But they also see no other way out. If Israel relaxes rules, Israeli civilians are murdered. If Israel enforces rules, Israeli civilians are murdered. They're stuck, and the only thing they can do is to continue to defend themselves and they're children, because if they become too lax, then their children will probably die in a terrorist attack.

sipporah

10/22/2002 11:47:39 AM

Or this one: The Arab-Israeli Conflict: A Brief Guide for the Perplexed http://www.ajc.org/InTheMedia/Publications.asp?did=357

sipporah

10/22/2002 11:46:34 AM

Try this one: MYTHS AND FACTS ON THE ISRAELI-ARAB CONFLICT WEB SITE: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

sipporah

10/22/2002 11:44:06 AM

I though Christians also followed the golden rule(What is hateful to you, do not do unto others). So I have a suggestion for a good number of people on this post. Try educating yourselves abut history before passing judgement on others. If I were to pass judgement on Christians based on what those who hate you always bring up, I would assume you were a bunch of ignorant murderers who enjoy attacking villages of other people and killing babies with pitchforks (that was the last story of a pogrom that I've read). Now, I don't believe that about Christians because I'm educated in history....

dplatt

10/22/2002 11:05:38 AM

Nambanker- You have to realize that not everyone believes in the Bible as a historical record. Christianity, Judaism and Islam can all have religious claims to Jerusalem, but this has nothing to do with the modern concept of statehood. The other problem with this argument is that the state of Israel favours even secular Jews over native Palestinians. Imagine, just for a second, if you were living in the country where you were born, and the government said that you had to give up your house to a foreigner simply because of who their maternal grandmother was. That's what the Palestinians face.

Skipper1

10/20/2002 02:47:59 PM

In the meantime, I think if we are Christians, we need to follow Christ and not support anything that results in death to the innocent, whether they be Arabs,Jews or any other race. We are to love our neighbors as ourselves, not judge, condemn or kill them. What would Jesus do?

Skipper1

10/20/2002 02:44:01 PM

We cannot use history as a reason to carry on treating people as if they don't matter. It doesn't matter to me what color a person is, what religion they are or where they come from. Each one of us has something we can either choose to offer the world, or we can use some perceived hate to stop us. I don't hate Jews, or Blacks or any other race, but I do hate what I see us doing to each other. As a person that calls myself a Christian, I cannot support killing for any reason. I believe that God will return Israel to the Jews when He wants the Jews to be returned. It is not something we have any power to control the timing of.

Skipper1

10/20/2002 02:38:42 PM

I think the real message I have is that each racial group can find a way in which we have mistreated, etc. Each nation has a reason for why they are the way they are. Until we look at who we all are and find ways to change, the world will always remain the way it is. The fact is, we are all humans and need to see each other that way and until we do, we are all lost.

jmduffy

10/20/2002 02:12:40 PM

What a pathetic man Dershowitz is. I suppose he thinks that a country with "Jews only" beaches connected to and "Jews only" roads from "Jews only" settlements and "Jews only" schools is acceptable. Such an idea would be preposterous in the United States. Sorry, if the racist Jews of Israel wish to rob the Arabs of their land and dignity please don't ask for my financial help. Hitler would be proud of the world's newest racists. Dershowitz advocated blowing up Arab villages at random for each Arab terrorist act. The idea of collective punishment was tried by Hitler in the 1940's, and didn't work . Interesting though that Dershowitz (a law professor) has adopted some of the most odious Hitlerian philosophy.

nambanker

10/20/2002 12:28:16 PM

Anyone who is willing to read The Holy Bible should check the book of Joshua - The land granted by God himself to The Children of Israel is noted here in great detail. The small area that is The State of Israel today is is just that - a very small proportion of what The Almighty originally granted to the Jewish people (his chosen people) - let's agree its Israel and not some artifically created terrorist enclave as claimed by the Palestinians - by the way anyone researching history may be interested to know the primary theory as to the origin of the Palestinians is that they came from the Greek islands but that is another debate. I am a Bible believing Christian and amnot interested in politics - just the Word of God.

crystalj56

10/19/2002 07:02:11 PM

I agree that the current move to divest from Israel is fueled by anti-semitism. I think that the few Jews who are associated with this effort are misguided apologists for the Jewish faith. Israel does not disenfanchise any individual due to race or religion. Can any of the Muslim countries of the world say the same? If this call is fueled by Israel's reaction to the infanitada, the person's making this call should walk a mile in the skin of an Israeli. Consider how the Beltway sniper has impacted the Washington area and the multiply that by 1,000.

jaynoble

10/19/2002 12:59:19 PM

Stated policy of the US government is that the US favors two states, both peaceful, viable and sovereign.We are committed to a secure Isrial and a sovereign, viable Palestine State.I want this outcome too. In fact a viable, sovereign Palestine has to be possible, if my government with my support continues to support Israel or its continued existance. Those settlements have to go. There can be no thought of "Transferance."

steveinoh

10/19/2002 08:52:16 AM

It's very simple...Read your history books and anyone can see who is wrong here. I was going to include a link to www.palfacts.org . However it appears the web site may have been disabled by people that do not want the facts to get out. Hmmm

salam_its_me_again

10/19/2002 03:29:21 AM

Ok, there's http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html and then there's http://www.cactus48.com/OriginMSW%20.pdf Wassalaams

PrickliestPear

10/19/2002 03:02:04 AM

bezalel, You wrote, "G-d plainly states in the Torah the portion of land given to Israel. if everyone would stick with that, life could be good." Now, when Jonathan Swift modestly proposed that the Irish should eat their children to deal with overpopulation and poverty, people recognised it as satire. You have a similarly ridiculous proposal, but it's harder to tell if you're being serious or not. Do you actually think this is a persuasive argument?

Dovidl

10/18/2002 03:13:33 PM

Sadly, there are people out there so committed to their position that reason, logic and facts will not sway them in the least. Usually their disagreement will be couched in the most vitriolic, hateful language. Fortunately, I think most people will just ignore them as soon as they realize this.

bezalel

10/18/2002 12:03:06 PM

the ongoing struggle for a certain piece or pieces of land is odd. G-d plainly states in the Torah the portion of land given to Israel. if everyone would stick with that, life could be good.

barblee

10/18/2002 11:17:41 AM

The Isralie's are God's chosen people. This nation will survive in spite of all that has come against it. It has been written. No amount of antagonism or opinion will make any difference. Their destiny has already been determined. It is God's will.

LOBOLOCO

10/18/2002 04:41:43 AM

There only existed a palestinian state for 22 in all of existence. Jeruselem was NEVER a capital of any palestinian state. What claim do they really have. NONE. In Israel anyone is free to go to any holy site, when the Jordanians ruled only muslims are allowed.

LOBOLOCO

10/18/2002 04:37:38 AM

Israel takes in millions fo refugees from around the world. I don't see any sympathetic arab neighbors taking in any palestinans.

LOBOLOCO

10/18/2002 04:34:37 AM

Lets not forget Israel was attacked first. Israel fought against their agressors and won. When you start a war and you lose you don't get to pick your borders...did germany get to pick their borders?

Crystalclearone

10/17/2002 04:57:33 PM

How are my Zionist friends today? Still blind to the healing justice of peace through Tikkun. THE SEIGE IS AGAINST PALESTINE, AND PALESTINE IS FIGHTING FOR ITS LIFE! Look at history objectively. Western Imperialists carved up the Middle East into manageable states, that we pit one against another, and continue to exploit for their oil and assets both directly and by proxy puppet regimes. It is Palestine who is the David, completely surrounded by a large number of US controlled puppet States and protectorates controlling huge tracts of oil rich land and military might. Reminds me of Custers arrogant last stand. Good luck George.

Crystalclearone

10/17/2002 04:54:10 PM

The Arabs are generally peaceful nomads, trying since Israel's modern rebirth to live with it, to live with the sea of Jews thrust upon them by overseas, mostly "Christian", anti-Semitism. Native Muslim Arabs are the first and last victims of US-Israeli bloodshed. They are angry because Israel keeps picking a fight with their hosts, who are not anti-Semitic. That is why the Jews hate the Arabs, not because they exist, but because they - the Arabs - are so tolerant and unconditionally loving of their cousins of Abraham's seed! Zionist Israel is like an abusive alcoholic husband who cannot understand why the dog, his wife and children keep coming back for more beatings, verbal and physical abuse. Then something snaps and you have the abused wife (or Palestinian) syndrome. Israel is like OJ claiming his wife verbally abused him before and after he beat and stabbed her to death.

jgw2

10/17/2002 01:21:02 PM

It may be of interest to note that The Palestinean nation is an AMERICAN thing. After Israel became a nation WE fed them and WE educated them and we housed them. The result was one of the most educated, and contencious, populations in that part of the world. We also gifted them with our gift to the world; 'human rights'. Next to Israel this group is also the most democratic. Perhaps this is also why this people is not trusted, not only by Israel, but most other countries in that area of the world. Perhaps, just perhaps, its not a religious thing at all but rather a failure of American Policy.

gwydionoak

10/17/2002 12:58:11 PM

The irony of the whole situation in Israel, to me, is that if the majority of Americans supported them because they were the most democratic nation in the Middle East (they are) or because they geniunely want peace with their neighbors (the great majority of them do from all accounts)I could stand solidly behind it. These are good reasons. But the cruel fact is that most Americans backing Israel do so for religious or ethinc reasons...the Jewish lobby in Congress who (understandably perhaps) cry "Israel right or wrong", fundamentalist Christians like the Falwell, Robertson crew who feel that Israel's continuation and its inevitable war in the Middle East is critical to their warped apocalyptic world view, and radical right-wing politicians.

gwydionoak

10/17/2002 12:57:47 PM

The result is that Israel's historical good points are overlooked, and radical (dare I say terrorists) like Ariel Sharon, the "butcher of Shatilla" are encouraged to "out Herod Herod" in their treatment of the Palestinians. Israel does indeed have the right to exist and to defend itself, but they also have the obligation to come to some sort of peaceful settlement with the Palestinians that were displaced and disenfrancised when the nation was created. Given the right-wing radicals (they are NOT conservatives)currently in charge in Washington, there is no chance of that happening for years.

Baruch18

10/17/2002 12:31:56 PM

One post reads: "nor do they wish to continue the bloody seige". You are absolutely right! The Israelis do want the bloody seige to end, but you - like most Islamic sympathizing disinformationalists - have the seige backwards. THE SEIGE IS AGAINST ISRAEL AND ISRAEL IS FIGHING FOR ITS LIFE! Look at history objectively. Look at a map. It is Israel who is the David, completely surrounded by a large number of Arab States controlling huge tracts of land. The Arabs are the Goliath, trying since Israel's modern rebirth to completely destroy it, to drive the Jews "into the sea". The Arabs are the intiators of the bloodsheds. They're angry because the Israelis keep finishing the fight. That's why the Arabs hate the Jews, not so much that they are exist, but because they - the Arabs - cannot destroy them!

saltlakesteve

10/17/2002 11:30:40 AM

Israel is the only consensual government in the Middle East. To cut our ties with Israel is to disavow our roots as a free people.

PrickliestPear

10/17/2002 03:33:26 AM

B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights organisation, has an eye-opening new report called "Lethal Curfew" that shows how the curfews (which are a violation of int'l law, BTW) are not clearly announced to the people (meaning they might violate it without even knowing it has been imposed), and those who do violate it are often shot. In the past four months 15 have been shot dead, 12 of whom were under the age of 16. I wonder how Dershowitz would defend that. I suppose he'd repeat his argument that "Israel has a better human rights record than many other countries in the world." So does Iraq, what's his point? Visit www.btselem.org

arielg

10/16/2002 07:26:44 PM

According to Dershowitz "Any moral person who is aware of the true facts would not sign a petition singling out Israel for divestiture. Those who signed it are either immoral bigots or ignoramuses. There is no third alternative." This is the tipical "with us or against us" attitude of the simpleton's intolerant mind who thinks that life and the world is a football match. Distorted facts and selective history can be used any way one chooses, and will not shed any more light on this issue for someone who has observed long enough. It is a moral question, not a lawyers case.

themarirev

10/16/2002 03:02:32 PM

The greatest problem I can see, is looking at those who occupy a part of this world MUST be supportors of tyranny and terrorism promoted by their state. I KNOW all Jews do not feel as Dershowitz, nor do they wish to continue the bloody seige. More over, the world knows there is more then enough room to go around. One cannot consider a fight with bombers, choppers and tanks against rocks, moral. Yes they do have suicide bombers, yet these are not the "cowards" as the anti-humanists rhetoric aspouses. One must very VERY brave to give their life for the freedom of many to simply exsist without harrassment and on their own terms. Do the military not put their lives on the line? Yet Dershowitz THINKS he is a moral person and spews rhetoric that only goes to prove he is losing his logic along with his hair(s). His obviously biased piece shows his "truth" is shaded and not necessairly "honest". Then again, he is a lawyer. Rev

Crystalclearone

10/16/2002 01:56:26 AM

How does a good lawyer lie to you with so called 'facts', taken both in and out of context? Oh, good example Alan. The Morality of Divestiture springs from the success of the international community forcing a just return of South Africa and India to indigenous control. There can be no enduring peace for Israel, nor the return to Zion, unless it is founded in truth, heartfelt peace, justice and restitution. Negotiate IN GOOD FAITH with your Arab-Muslim-Palestinian hosts. You have selectively recalled positions offered, accepted, violated and refused. No peace enforced by US military might, nor coerced in US controlled UN Tribunal nor International Courts will endure this test of Tikkun. Withdraw to pre-1967 borders: End the occupation, demolitions, torture and death squads. Reading Supreme court judgements that state their should be an end to the use of torture, is not the same as actually ending it.

BDboy

10/16/2002 01:47:14 AM

I agree with Mr. Dershowitz in some points. However this is wrong that UN and the rest of the world is against Israel. Just like muslims,zionists need to take a look of their practice. Both parties are doing horrible things in the name of religion. I think Shakespear said something like,"If nobody loves you,be sure it is your own fault". Time for reality check for Israeli soul. Atleast these people are protesting peacefully. We should encourage peaceful and civilized exchange of ideas. Peace.

jgw2

10/16/2002 12:34:25 AM

What if both Israel and the Palestineans are wrong? As far as this conflict is concerned; The body count of this conflict goes to Israel at about 20:1. Israel has been confiscating land without paying for it. Then there are the civilian Israeli death squads who, when captured, are slapped on the wrist and let go. It has been suggested that Israel would not exist without the unconditional support of the United States and that much of that support is derived from the American reborn Christian community and not American Jews. It is equally interesting that its pretty obvious that Israel pretty much calls the shots of American foreign policy and that our president is a self-proclaimed reborn Christian. What really bothers me about the whole thing is that the reborn Christian community is really looking for the end of the world and seems to be willing to do almost anything to bring that about. I wonder, does anybody else have any concerns in this area?

obfuscate

10/15/2002 05:59:53 PM

ComicSun Dershowitz and other Zionists. It is pathetic of you to claim that the occupation is very humane and benevolent. Refer to this website by Israeli Footsoldiers of the Brutal, Illegal Occupation: http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp These are not rants of anti-semitic Arabs. They are accounts in Hebrew and English of IDF soldiers who claim refuse to "continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people". Pictures included. Should we not believe them??

sipporah

10/15/2002 12:34:28 PM

In my experiences with the academic world(4yrs,now in grad schl)people protest for the sake of doing so regardless of what they know about the "cause."When they go on anti-Israel tirades,they rarely know facts.Once they stop spewing hate long enough for you to converse with them,they know nothing except what an anti-Semitic group has told them.>Many have never heard of Camp David.>Many have never heard of the fact that,while ~750,000Arabsleft what became Israel ~1948,~875,000 Jew were FORCIBLY REMOVED from their homes in other Arab countries(coinciding with those Arab countries attacking Israel). As to the web site that people have posted.Did it occur to you,before you simply accepted something you saw posted on the Internet,that Israel is the only country in the region listed as having something happen before 1953?What about terror attacks on Jews in that area in the 1920's,long before Israel existed?Those aren't in there.Do you always accept what others tell you without attempting to verify it?

gagalbert

10/15/2002 11:07:32 AM

Interesting, most of the posts are typical diatribes against Jews and Israel, but the vote is by far is support of American values that Irael shares with us. The jew haters always believe that if they shout loud enough it makes what they are saying true

PrickliestPear

10/15/2002 01:34:47 AM

Dershowitz' assertion that the divestiture campaign is "fueled by ignorance and bigotry" is yet another tired example of people equating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. So what, is Israel above reproach? Does this apply to other countries as well? If I criticise the actions of the US government, does that make me anti-American? If I criticise my own government, am I a self-hating Canadian? This kind of transparently manipulative language makes it difficult to take seriously those who try to defend the brutal, oppressive, and illegal actions of the state of Israel.

PrickliestPear

10/15/2002 01:17:37 AM

The offer of 97% at Camp David sounds like a lot, and to the casual observer (which Dershowitz is assuming the readers of this piece are) cannot be blamed for thinking that it was generous (even though it's not even Israel's land to give). Everyone who has actually seen maps showing what the Palestinians would receive, however, knows why the offer was completely unacceptable. The West Bank would be divided into three parts, separated from each other and from East Jerusalem, by Israeli settlements. Israel would have remained in control of all the water in the region. There is no way Palestine could create a viable state with that kind of setup.

andy_f_90

10/14/2002 10:58:32 PM

Some call divestment "Bigotry and ignorance" just because we don't agree with Israeli state sponsored terrorism and oppression? I would kindly as the previous gentleman did, refer you to: http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable.htm

andy_f_90

10/14/2002 10:55:16 PM

We have another Israeli apologist in Tago. Not only do you not condemn the awful death of a 3 yr. old by Israeli incursions into Palestinian territories, you blame the PALESTINIANS FOR CAUSING IT! Blaming the victims whose land is stolen and occupied and when they resist, you call it terrorism. And when they start doing something non-violent in the footsteps of great men, THEY CRY FOUL calling it a "leftist conspiracy". Israeli lovers would never admit any bloody hands on their part. As the following outrageous comments made by a Zionist rabbi reveals, "I would never forgive the Palestinians for making me kill them". Just substitue the Palestinian in the quote to a Jew; and the statement should immediately strike a familiar tone to an infamous tragedy in world history!

Tago45

10/14/2002 10:27:16 PM

College leftists see the three year old killed by the IDF. They do not see the tunnel built by Palestinians to smuggle illegal weapons from Egypt(a legitimate miltary target that Israel blew up, causing the child's death by falling debris). You have to be extremely stupid to believe that this war is against the occupation. Unless you count the occupation as "from the river to the sea" as Palestine is portrayed on Palestinian maps. The divestment campaign is WRONG, supported by the ignorant leftist masses.

andy_f_90

10/14/2002 09:59:30 PM

And there isn't a more fierce radical apologist for Israeli brutal policies than Alan Dershowitz. I mean this guy said a few months ago, that Israel should "retalitate" for every bombing against Israelis by wiping out an ENTIRE PALESTINIAN VILLAGE where the bomber came from, to "teach" them a lesson. What a childish, Pavlovian dog-type reflexive mentality! I pity him and all those who would buy his cheap, disgusting, shrewd, and sinister argument. Which is all nicely wrapped up to make ISRAEL LOOK LIKE THE VICTIM in the Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation!!

andy_f_90

10/14/2002 09:51:57 PM

I 100% disagree with the previous post. There isn't a better NON-VIOLENT WEAPON than divesting from Israel to make it halt it's subjugatory practises of the Palestinian nation! American pressure didn't work, 62+ U.N resolutions didn't put a brake on it's expansionist policy, nothing stops Israel from leaving the occupied Palestinain territories, so it's about time Pro-Palestinian supporters thought of something clever to spur change. Because when the Israeli economy starts to feel the pinch, believe me they'll get the idea REAL FAST, just as apartheid South Africa did!

Pabli67

10/14/2002 09:44:36 PM

Divestment from Israel would be of no value to anyone, least of all the Palestinians. Why are these so called "educators" being so reactionary. What is needed here (especially from the U.S.) are problem solvers. People who want peace between the Israelis and Palestinians (and most do) have to realize that both parties must give up something to gain something. Peace is not free, there is a cost. Europe finally found peace after WWII when the countries of Western Europe decided to tie themselves together economically. Israel and Palestine could look to that model for a possible solution. Divestment is not the answer but finding people who are willing to listen to BOTH sides and form a compromise is a possible one.

Realist00

10/14/2002 08:04:57 PM

The campaign currently being waged against Israel on college and university campuses throughout the world is fueled by ignorance and bigotry. Led by efforts at Harvard, MIT, and other schools to end university investment in Israel and to boycott Israeli speakers and academics, this campaign seeks to delegitimate and isolate Israel as a pariah state. The campaign also conveys to impressionable college students the notion that Israel is among the worst human rights violators in the world. Bigotry and ignorance because we don't agree with state sponsored terrorism and oppression? http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable.htm

Babbitt

10/14/2002 06:54:33 PM

The Bali bomb is truely Australia's 9/11 (by % of population) but no coverage on BNET yet - oh dear - Where is Mr D? Counting his pennies?

cosmicsun

10/14/2002 06:07:33 PM

comparing Israel to South Africa is a wonderful public relations ploy for the Palestinian regeme. What is not said is that Israel built 5 collegess, schools hospitals put in public works like sewers and electricty and created employment for hundreds of thousands of Muslim Palestinians. What I am curious about is the human rights record of the Muslim Palestinians. They torture and murder their own, mistreat women, teach their children hate, have the most corrupt politicians and call for the genocide of Christians and Jews. Their media is filled with anti Semitism, they train young children to murder and hate and they have no democratic court or political system. If the Arabs have no weapons they are alive, if the Jews have no weapons, how long would it take for them to all be killed.

Babbitt

10/14/2002 06:01:49 PM

Seems this diatribe got a big thumbs down. Such a shame the author will never reply, but that is typical of BNET. I only hope Alan D is learning something.

cosmicsun

10/14/2002 05:58:04 PM

When people make claims comparing Israel that reminds me of Martin Luther Kings statement-when people speak of being against Zionism-what they mean is they are against Jews. I have heard Dennis Ross say first hand that the offer was a good one that there was nothing negative about it and that Arafats deputies felt that he sould have taken it.

Payne

10/14/2002 05:36:38 PM

Israel is a well-armed ghetto, surrounded by states that want its people to die. The Palestinians have been used by Arab leaders as weapons-metaphorically and literally-against Israel. If the Arab leaders cared about human rights, they would treat their own fellow Arab people better. Look at how well the Israelis treat their own. The Palestinians and other Arab people should be pissed; they've been screwed by Arab leaders who supposedly care about them. The Israeli government is morally superior to every Arab government in its region. And this does make it good. But its easier for Arab leaders and many in the U.S. to blame Israel because it keeps the oil flowing.

e_ahrold

10/14/2002 02:19:49 PM

His main point is that Israel should not be faulted because their policies were better than those of other nations. Well, that logic does not sit will with me. Just because a country is not "as bad" as its neighbors does not make it good. And I also do not appreciate the idea that anyone who does not unreservedly support Israel is a anti-semite.

sasa

10/14/2002 02:17:07 PM

Just a bit of history. The Zionists built on land they PURCHASED from the wealthy Sheiks! "Read the facts in "From Time Immemorial" to clearly understand that prior to to creation of the state of Israel Jews purchased land and built an agraian society dedicated to regrow in the desert. They hired "Arabs"(there was no state of Palestine!)to work in the fields.. They were paid and well treated. Better than in the lands they migrated from! For the past fifty year is seems that The Arabs never miss an opportunity to create a better life for themselves ---UN Resolution in 1948 which offered a Partition into two states OR Camp David Accords OR Taba. ?When will they put down their arms and believe in a peaceful solution??Israel has a right to exist in peace and security with its neighbors. Sasa

kanzeon

10/14/2002 12:27:43 PM

Another bit of nonsense from Dershowitz: "Moreover, in the year 2000, at Camp David and Taba, Israel offered to give up 97% of the disputed land on the West Bank and to accept a Palestinian state. " This is an oft repeated half-truth. In fact, this "offer" was about the same as South Africa's "homelands" policy prior to the end of apartheid. In no way was Israel attempting either to dismantle settlments, nor to actually recognize a CONTIGUOUS area IN THE WEST BANK OR GAZA! There's no way this would be considered a "state" by any Palestinian. Moreover, there was NO compensation for terriroties seized in 1948.

kanzeon

10/14/2002 12:25:19 PM

"So why is the Jewish state being singled out?" It's not. It's "human rights record" is shameful in the treatment of Palestinians- and somewhat worse, I'd say, than apartheid. It's time that Palestinians were treated with dignity.

mbwalz

10/14/2002 10:55:45 AM

This reminds me of when I was in college and we protested our univertiy's investment in South Africa, then ruled by aparthied. Everyone said we had no right to demand our university divest. But as payers of tuition, we had that right. We did not agree with apartheid and our university's role in it. So, we did the very American thing and excersized our rights. Good for this generation of students. Standing up for what they think!

Windsinger

10/14/2002 09:31:23 AM

Yes! Colleges and Universities are bad! Hell, reading is bad! Stupid people are way easier to control!

bbdh

10/14/2002 08:16:34 AM

BS"D The day any hypocritical United States higher educational institution evinces any semblance of morality, we can be certain the end of the world is near.

egcroan

10/14/2002 04:10:50 AM

OK this is sort of a reach don't you think ?? ""Some supporters of the divestment effort have said that they should be free to criticize Israel, and that this criticism is not the same as anti-Semitism. But no one--including Harvard University’s President Lawrence Summers--has equated anti-Semitism with criticism of Israel." This article is just plain disappointing in that it attempts to sway many christian american's like myself who fear being label Anti-Semitism.....What Hogwash !!

richie136

10/14/2002 02:43:37 AM

How can a reasonable person talk sense to people who believe that they are a wrathful, jealous and murderous god's chosen ones? This will not add up ..right?

onic-enero

10/14/2002 01:00:49 AM

Divestment from Israel, IMO, is a very ridiculous idea and not because I "side" with the Israeli government's actions. First of all, many Israeli academics, like academics in general, condemn their government's actions wholeheartedly. America has done pretty bad things as a country in the past, this doesn't mean the American scholars are and were responsible and deserving of a boycott by foreign universities. If a European country was in a situation similar to Israels would people want to divest from them? Strangely I don't think so. We don't boycot scholars from unfriendly nations, why should Israel be singled out?

TMTOWTDI

10/14/2002 12:04:42 AM

But anyway, I don't think the Universities should divest from Israeli interest, because i'm one to admit that i may be wrong. And if i am, i want god not to look at me as a condoner of the divestment of Israel.

TMTOWTDI

10/14/2002 12:03:34 AM

Personal Opinion: I'm a young man, and i'm honestly not even sure of what my faith is. I live in a Fundamental Christian home at the moment. I've been a Buddhist scholar for years, so i see things from probably a different outlook than most. Now, if you asked the patriarch in the home i currently reside in at the present time, the answer to the above scenario is simply this: "Jews are God's chosen people and they have every right to defend this proposition." And to be honest, i have no solid opinion on the matter. But what I do know is this: That opposing force of Israel have lost 17,000+ men, women and children by the hand of the Israelis and their U.S. F-16s. The Jews lost i believe are around 240+. You do the math, and tell me why god's chosen people need the aid of F-16s to fulfill god's will. -----------------to be continued..

TMTOWTDI

10/14/2002 12:02:47 AM

Scenario: The U.S. implements it's standard procedure in investing the best interests of Israel and supplies them with F-16 Fighter Jets. Israel replies with their standard procedure of letting the U.S. hear what they want, giving the UN the appropriate signatures, contracting that they will indefinitely not use these Jets for Offensive attacks against the Arabs or any other force. ------------------------ Actual Result: Over the history of U.S. involvement in Israeli defense, every boundary has been broken by the hand of the Israelis. They use the F-16s to slay Arabs and any opposing force, with no regards to the standing contracts. -----------------to be continued..

Nail56

10/13/2002 09:57:03 PM

Dershowitz' screed is to be expected of an attorney. In the real world, run the numbers: exiled, killed, imprisoned, tortured, or denied water for five days out of seven. Israel forsook righteousness fifty years ago and all the legalizing in the world won't absolve it of repression, terror, apartheid, and planned land grab.

DawnLouise

10/13/2002 09:24:40 PM

The U.S. had no desire for peace with the Native Americans. They had no historical claim, nor any evidence to relatives in the area. That is a statement of historical fact. How Isreal feels towards the Palestinians, and the settlements, is best discribed by those who are felling those thoughts. Not open to interpretation of other's. Since we are living it now, we do not have the benifit of hindsight to see into what Isreal really wants. Isreal has pulled settlements before. There really are no simple facts. Here is a fact. Isreali press evedryday, demands answers for agression, and demands for a Palestinian state. Israel is a democracy. At the time of the American Indian wars, there wasn't a large population, much less over half demanding a Native American state. Coming from one perspective, of an existant historical record. We need more correlation, before the facts can be thought to point in any similar direction. Dawn

Babbitt

10/13/2002 08:42:57 PM

The US of A 'gives' 5 billion dollars each year to Israel. Why?

arielg

10/13/2002 08:18:39 PM

The simple fact is that Israel has no desire for "peace" at all. Israel feels entitled to the land and they are going to do anything in their power to keep it. (with the US blessings, arms, and the politicians, which they have in their pockets). That is why they keep building settlements and encouraging people to populate them while they talk "peace"(Altough, lately, they haren't even doing that anymore)

bardmountain

10/13/2002 04:29:02 PM

I don't know what Dershowitz is smoking, but I'd sure like to get my hands on some :). Accusing the "campaign" against the occupation of Palestine as being fuled by "ignorance and bigotry" is ludicrous. It is almost is ludicrous as the argument that Arafat is seeking peace and the Palestinians are innocent victums of the Israeli occupation. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. This cavalier black-and-white, good guys vs. bad guys naiveity almost never accurately describes conflict, but it is particularly silly in this case. And the inflamatory rhetoric by those favoring Palestine and zealots like Mr. Dershowitz is not contributing to resolving this conflict.

DawnLouise

10/13/2002 03:46:56 PM

First off, if Mexicanss crosssed the American borders to inspire terror, there would most defenitly be American house to house searches. A big difference would be the Mexican Government would co-operate. Palestinian Authority used to work with Isreal to stop homicide bombers and now they do not. The problem with petitions and Divesting, is it holds one sife over the other in responcibilities. Part of the real problem in the area, is that the hardliners on both sides, are freed from having to listen as long as they find support to blaim. What is needed is effort to stop the violence now, when the smoke clears, and Isreali's are not living under terror, which makes it hard to make thoughtful decisions. And Palestinians, are living in a state that provides life liberty and the ppursuit of happiness. Then, we can weigh snd place blaim.

andy_f_90

10/13/2002 01:15:46 PM

I fully support divesting from Israel as a means to end their illegal occupation from Palestine. It's an outrage that an Israeli-loving Zionist Dershowitz would cry foul and "anti-Semitism" when the WHOLE WORLD recognizes the fallacies and double-standard that Israel state-sponsored terrorism against it's "Palestinian subjects". The Palestinians are basically like caged animals in their own land, unable to travel from one city to the next without being profiled, harrassed, and humiliated. Now remember this is done to them IN PALESTINIAN CITIES!! It's like Candadians coming over here and occupying America barring Americans from moving from city to city claiming if they didn't take such measures, terrorism would affect CANADA!!!! How absurd! And this and many other crimes Dershowitz is trying to deflect with his "lawyer-infested" double-talk tongue. So watch out!!!!

tonygalli

10/13/2002 01:15:45 PM

First I thought it was religious intolerance. Then I thought it was just about land. Now I realize, it about none of those - it's about greed, power, near-sightedness and narrow-mindness. So, in a sense, it is about religion because a correct understanding of religion is the anti-dote to that thinking and a misguided understading of religion serves the equally passionate plee to continue the problem. G-d, Jesus, the prophets of Israel, Moses, Muhammed - all hang their heads in shame.

tonygalli

10/13/2002 01:15:37 PM

Instead of finding one side to blame squarely, in fact undermining the whole philosophy of "blame," I have tried to look at it more objectively. I realized that all sides - the West (particularly the UN, America, England, and western Zionists), the ethnocentric, anthropomorphic diety beliefs (misguided notions of G-d) of terrorists and fundamentalists in Judaism and Islam (Islamic Jihad, the Stern gang, etc.), the surrounding Arab and non-Arab lands, capitalism, the cold war, etc. have all caused the problem and are all to blame. There are countless causal factors in this problem. But one cause of the problem is usually overlooked - trying to find one source of blame, leading to scapegoating, leaving the million other causes untouched and guaranteeing the problem will continue, if not get worse by the constant cycle of retaliation. IOW, more people on all sides need to change their thinking!

tonygalli

10/13/2002 01:13:43 PM

I used to think the blame for the Middle East conflict was equal for Jews and Arabs, or Israelis and Palestinians technically. Then, I thought it was mostly the fault of Palestinian terrorists and the surrounding Arab lands. Then I investigated deeper and decided it was the fault of America/Britain and Israeli Zionists. Then, I thought it was mostly the fault of the government of Israel. Then I thought it was the PLO's fault. Then I decided to think differently.

angel49

10/13/2002 09:07:28 AM

Is it possible that Isreal and Palestine are kept onstable for the sake of oil so other super nations can stay in the region to protect what they want or need? I think we need to find a better way rather than to keep the fighting going on over there and the people jews or arabs need to STOP and think why are we making our own lives so bad only they can stop/ I am talking about the educated as well as uneducated WAKE UP AND STOP FIGHTING MAKE THE REGION SAFE FOR ALL CONCERNED AND THE JEWS NEED TO SHARE WITH THE ARABS AND ARABS NEED TO SHARE WITH THE JEWS HELP EACH OTHER OR THIS WILL NEVER END. BELIEVE IN GOD BUT NOT THE BOOKS,AT THIS POINT I DON'T THINK ANY OF THEM ON EITHER SIDE BELIEVE IN GOD!

eikke

10/12/2002 11:01:58 PM

dplatt- most of the land that the jews in the '20s and '30s settled on in what later became israel was uninhabited. the palestinians made up the majority of the population, but stayed to a few towns or cities. the ottoman sultanate owned most of the holy land outright, and the sultans saw fit never to develop or settle it. prior to their ejection of the arabs in '49, the jews had settled in unoccupied areas or cities where there was room for everyone.

Babbitt

10/12/2002 09:21:35 PM

Are you an Israeli Mr Dershowitz? No. Why are you writing a shallow lawyer piece in their 'defence'? Are you a Jew perhaps? No mention of G-d in your piece. What does He say about justice?

Babbitt

10/12/2002 08:30:50 PM

It's one of the biggest cons, to believe that the supreme being of billions of galaxies each containing billions of stars would single out a wee bit of land for his 'chosen people' to invade and reinvade and cause so much trouble for the rest of humanity over thousands of years. If this is your G-d, perhaps you need to screw your head on.

dplatt

10/12/2002 07:28:11 PM

I believe that divestiment is a fair and valid way to put pressure on Israel to treat the Palestinians fairly. True, other arab countries have not offered much hospitality to the Palestinians, but that is besides the point. The point is that the modern state of Israel was founded on land that was already occupied. Plain and simple. One of Dershowitz's arguments is that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is criticized whereas the Chinese treatment of Tibetans, for example, is ignored. This is a straw man, as many people who support a Palestinian state also support a Free Tibet (myself included). Nelson Mandela has made the comparison between South Africa and Israel. And while some of the ANC's actions could be called terrorism, that doesn't justify the position of the white government in South Africa. And the PLO's actions do not justify the position of the Israeli government.

eikke

10/12/2002 06:09:53 PM

you know what the great thing about all this is? up north of israel, there are 20 million kurds living on the borders of four muslim nations. no one allows them their own government. states have used mustard gas on hundreds of thousands of them, if not millions. they too are fighting a guerrilla/terrorist war for their own homeland. but you know what? they're muslims. and the people making life hell for them are muslims. so the muslim world couldn't care less. the only reason anyone cares about the palestinians is because it's non-muslims they're fighting.

jkopanko

10/12/2002 05:28:18 PM

If we simply DEALT WITH EVERYONE FAIRLY AND JUSTLY so many of these problems would be avoided. And internal committment to human rights is cetrainly great. However this does NOT lessen the seriousness of military agression and tyranny. Such is not acceptible REGARDLESS of whether the country is "the Devil" or "Grandma". At the same time non-agression toward one's neighbors is great. However, it does NOT lessen the seriouness of patterns of human rights abuse, repression and discrimination. HOLD ALL these failings to SERIOUS ACCOUNTABILITY. TREAT ALL WITH NONBIASED FAIRNESS. "We will always have a 'special relationship' with Israel (regardless of their behavior or that of their neighbors)" is NOT nonbiased fairness. "We're friends with the Saudis (because they sell us oil and, in pragmatism, allow us to launch military operations from their territory--while they maintain one of the most attrocious and oppressive dictatorships on earth)" is NOT nonbiased fairness.

scifibooks

10/12/2002 05:17:58 PM

I am not against the Palestinians either as a people, but I am against the PLO and the terrorist activites that are carried out. Why these people are even thinking of divesting in Israel, a country in good standing, is beyond me and definitely anti Semitic.

scifibooks

10/12/2002 05:10:14 PM

I do not see any of the arab nations such as Jordan willing to give up some of their territory for a Palestinian state. Do you? Israel is our ally, our greatest ally in the region. What gets me is that people forget that the Arabs started this war, attacked Israel and LOST! They now won't stop being sore losers and blaming israel for all their problems. Maybe if the stop blaming Isreal the Arab nations and the Palestinians can actually get on with their own futures!

tmaster1

10/12/2002 04:56:23 PM

Dershowitz seems not to realize that the real sentiment BEHIND the divestiture movement is not really Israel's record of torturing, but, rather, the issue of nationhood. Palestinians want to rule themselves in an independet nation. And Israel has conciously put up all kinds of roadblocks. Israel stands as the only modern colonial state, and we are now in the 21st century. That is the root of the disgust held by the world's people. Israel has power. It can afford an independent Palestinian state on its borders.

shibbo

10/12/2002 03:33:05 PM

I don't think enough is being said about the true nature of the people who are attacking Israel, the Progressives and Greens. I had several encounters with these people since 9-11. Aside from their naiive adherence to politics of "good intentions" over politics of reason, it took me a while to figure out what creeped me out the most about them. And then one day I came across a neo-Nazi newsletter, and I realized what it was. The ONLY difference between the Progressives and the Neo-Nazis is that the Progressives haven't started blaming their conspiracy theories on Jews --Yet. Attacking Israel is just one step that the Progressives are taking toward leading the world into a the biggest Holocaust ever.

mateo107

10/12/2002 02:17:58 PM

Islam has no justifiable reason to covet the territory so much: the Qur'an never mentions Jerusalem, and in fact changes the quibla to Mecca. while i also admit there are social issues involved, for the most part the Arabs just need to get over it, stop pointing fingers, and move on. this reminds me of the Arab possession of the Holy Land during the Crusades, which was mostly because the region was valuable to the Christians. isn't anybody concerned about the actual issues here? regardless of what you think about who should be in possession of the land, these unjustified attacks on Israel are childish and immature. the analogy about "Jews cheat" from the article is still perfectly applicable today. hard to believe this came from a Harvard president, but i guess prejudice infects all levels of intellect. perhaps the Arabs just need to grow up (and perhaps we should make sure they stick to the Geneva convention rules while we're at it).

markm

10/12/2002 12:39:40 PM

I think much of the voting in support of divestment from Israel, on campuses as well as online shows more about how people feel about the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians and don't care much about how bad or how good a group has been. Myself I wonder how the British and American's thought to take a land of two peoples, give it to one and expect the other to go away happy. That just doesn't make any sense...

DawnLouise

10/12/2002 12:02:26 PM

Good point, While adult voices are pointing and blaming. Do we remember just a couple of years ago, the children on both sides, were trying to learn to work together. Isreali children, were forced to learn of Palestinian friends who died, throwing rocks. Yet the friend they remember, and laughed with, is the boy they knew. The misunderstandings in the Petition, just goes after Adults, and chooses sides. But what of the children, who understood, they were learning a new way, despite the prejudices, and fears of the adults. Suddenly forced apart, forced to choose the adults over their friends. In the hopes of them, the peace process must begin again. And to use false truths, to justify ignoring their small attempts, just sounds like adding more adult fuel to an adult begun fire. It is easy to see why God told the adults that their children would build the temple, because the adults hands were covered in blood. We have not changed very much threw the passing of times have we. Dawn

Goyboy

10/12/2002 11:31:52 AM

What do I believe? I believe that the Middle East has a complex problem. The petition in question is based on a misunderstanding on just how complex the problem is. I wouldn't support the petition, and yet I wouldn't claim that the Israeli government is 100% free of wrongdoing. I share the opinion of Israel-born actress Natalie Portman who attends Harvard. During an interview she said that we should be crying for all the children victimized by the violence - the Palestinian children as well as the Israeli children.

james1961

10/12/2002 08:53:27 AM

I find it interesting that Mr Dershowizt, is a liberal and it is in most cases his fellow liberals who are leading the charges againists Israel. But I also think it is intersting that such people would be supporting people such as Arafat and ignore the terrorists acts he supports.

valueadder

10/11/2002 11:54:04 PM

Correction: The problems rose simply because we continued to disobey God's way of peace for all, Jews and Arabs.

valueadder

10/11/2002 11:52:26 PM

The Bible already prophesies that Israel will be a stumbling block. However God also provides a solution. The key to peace in the Middle East is the submission of people to God. Allah said in the Koran, "Tell Christians. We believe in the revelations given to you (Bible) and us. Our Allah and your Elohim is one, and we submit to Him (Yahweh = Jesus) (Koran 29:46). "If Jews, Christians, and Muslims truly follow God, there would be no Middle-East Crisis. ...(Israel) is the only piece of land in the world that God has assigned eternal ownership to (the Jews). ... The Old Testament portion of the Bible contains this well-known contract that people agree to obey by being Muslims, Christians, and Jews" from Building Sustainable World Peace Under Jesus CEO). The problems rose simply because we continued to follow God's way of peace for all, Jews and Arabs. Love each other.

eikke

10/11/2002 10:12:48 PM

the middle east was going downhill centuries before the state of israel was established. all israel did was give all these other basketcase peoples/regions something to unite against, to take their minds off their own interminable squabbles. it also gave all these basketcase states around it something to occupy their populations' minds with, rather than their governments' own failures. in that respect, the states of the arab muslim world had better hope israel survives indefinitely.

brigid

10/11/2002 10:09:49 PM

The Palestinians have been treated as though they are expendable. They are being indescriminately murdered as an act of vengance for Israeli lives way out of porportion for the deaths that the Palestinians have caused. The Israelis have used the Palestinians as scapegoats for their problems, which they caused by invading Palestine as "refugees" and stealing the Palestinian land. Appearantly the only thing that the Zionists (note I am NOT saying all Jews) learned from the Holocaust is how to act like Nazis. Why are we kissing up to them?

DominoTriumverate

10/11/2002 08:44:10 PM

"The middle east would go downhill"? WHO are you kidding? Give me a break, they are as much to blame for as anyone else in the reigon. That entire part of the world is crazy, and they are going to be until they finally wipe each other out of existance, and by then the US is going to be a smoldering wasteland. Spare us the cranial-intestinal ambiguity.

DawnLouise

10/11/2002 07:58:20 PM

I only hope those that fault Isreal in all things read this piece with open hearts, and think for a second. All these decisions were made under the gun. What I mean is, under siege. To continue, pushing a platform of fairness, when the people attacking you are the ones you are fighting for fairness of, is hard to get threw. To look beyond, the harm, so many rejoice in causing you, is extremely difficult. To be judged, by those who, are not under this pressure, is closed sighted. From within, under the same pressures, would any other people make different decisions, or, better ones, or even these. To know this petition was signed, without bothering to find out the full facts, is scary. When any are able to be so misled against any other peoples, the historical results have not been so good, fot the misrepresented. I would have hoped those collegiate, those who are claiming to be training the leaders of tomorrow, would take the time to step back, and take a full view of such an important picture. Dawn

mateo107

10/11/2002 07:11:56 PM

this article is right on target. amazing how people will do anything to target Israel. doesn't anybody ever take into consideration how quickly the Middle East would go downhill if the world were to lose Isreal? of course, i'm sure we'll hear plenty of "non-descriminatory" criticism against them...