The Rabbi and the Centerfold, Part 2

Return to Part 1

SB: Okay, theory number two. The second theory again in nudity and pornography is this: You know, in the American South for 400 years there were black slaves. And after a while, when people are conditioned generation after generation to enslaving others, when a white man looked at a black man, he didn't even see a person. What he saw was a walking bale of cotton. He didn't see a human being with their own ambitions, their own dreams, their own pain, their own laughter. What he saw was someone who can get my work done.

		A Playmate's Perceptions Nervous about talking to her rabbi On being the object of men's fantasies Why she said yes to being a Playmate Does nudity undermine female dignity? "The men who write to me" Her views on other Playmates Comparing herself to Monica ^ Top of article ^

So slavery is a dehumanizing process that robs and strips people of their humanity and their dignity. The argument goes that pornography is similar insofar as it teaches men not to see a woman but to see the walking satisfaction of their sex drive. This isn't a woman who has her own person, who is an end. This isn't someone with her own dreams, her own mind, her own heart, this is rather someone who is there to excite me. . It's dehumanizing and it strips them of their human dignity, making them means instead of ends...

In other words, the men who look at this [magazine]--they couldn't care less about your bat mitzvah or your trip to Israel. What they care about is, she excites me. That's it. You're there for them, you're not a person any more.

LV: I mean, obviously because they don't get to speak to me, they obviously don't care about those things. Obviously, in their mind, they know they'll never have an opportunity to know what I'm about, so they take what they can, which is the most pleasing part of it, which is my body, and write the rest off.

I mean, women have always been less than men and, you know, in the same aspect of what the slave thing is. And I'm actually learning about this in my sociology class right now. It is just like that for women, but it's been going on for so long, it's accepted.

Does nudity undermine female dignity?

SB: So you would say that pornography is disrespectful to women?

LV: It could be. I don't feel disrespected at all.

SB: But do you feel that you've contributed to this idea that women are a means to male satisfaction?

LV: I mean, that's why this magazine was made, to satisfy men's--

SB: That's why the magazine was made, but is that why women were made?

LV: No.

SB: So that was not God's intention, or evolution's intention, or whatever?

LV: Oh, I don't think that was God's intention. But again, I question why God does a lot of things.

SB: So do you feel, therefore, that by taking off your clothes for Playboy, you're subverting or undermining female dignity? That by making yourself into the means for male libidinous satisfaction only, you're contributing to the degradation of women?

LV: Not women in the whole, maybe just myself. People ask me do you think it's right to read Playboy religiously, I'm like no, what I did was personal. No, because I posed for this for me. So if I'm degrading anyone, I'm just degrading myself. What other women do--

SB: But the biggest sins in life are where we hurt ourselves even more than other people.

LV: But I don't feel like I'm hurting myself.

SB: But you just said that you undermined--

LV: I mean, if I--I'm undermining myself, but I don't feel like it's hurting me. I don't feel disappointed in myself. I mean, obviously, this is the most challenging interview that I've had because it's making me think a lot about things that hadn't really been brought up to me before.

SB: Well, if I didn't respect your mind, I wouldn't ask you challenging questions. I would ask you like what flavor ice cream do you like and stuff like that. But I saw from your comments in your interviews that you were a highly intelligent young woman, so I'm asking you questions that I think befit a woman of your intelligence.

On women who give their husbands Playboy

LV: Right. It's just the fact that I am the centerfold, that men are going to look at it just for the simple fact of, you know, the satisfaction of looking at a woman's body. And that may be degrading and that's why women have the problem with Playboy.

		A Playmate's Perceptions Nervous about talking to her rabbi On being the object of men's fantasies Why she said yes to being a Playmate Does nudity undermine female dignity? "The men who write to me" Her views on other Playmates Comparing herself to Monica ^ Top of article ^

But the more responses, especially nowadays, that I get, I can tell you that half of the people at my signings were women. More than half of my e-mails that I get are women saying, "I really would have liked to come to your signing, but I was just scared. But I wanted to let you know that you look amazing and I think it's good what you're doing."

SB: Why do you think a woman would write that?

LV: I have no clue.

SB: Were any of them married women?

LV: A lot of them. In fact, a lot of women who come into the bar that I work at, [say] I want this magazine for my husband. And I'm like, "Really? Wow, why do you want your husband looking at me?" "Oh well, you're so beautiful and, you know, I'm giving it to him as a gift that I know he'll be thrilled." I'm like, "Whoa, that's kind of weird." I was [thinking] if I was a guy, I'd wish that my wife would give me a magazine like this.

SB: You said that the fact that they buy their husbands or fiancés Playboy is a sign of the strength of their relationship. What if I were to tell you that perhaps it's a sign of the weakness. What if I were to say to you: It seems to me that these women are very insecure about their looks and their bodies. They feel they're not enough to excite their husbands or their boyfriends. So they say, you know what? Better that I control this whole thing. I'll give him Playboy. I'll tell him here's the Sports Illustrated swimsuit calendar. This way, at least he knows that he can talk to me about his need for other women and he can rely on me. I don't have to worry where is he tonight? Why is he late coming home from work?

What if I were to say to you it's the ultimate sign of insecurity, that this is the last thing these women want. But they feel they have to choose the lesser of two evils. They have basically accepted that they are not enough to excite their husbands, so they've given up and they are at least just trying to control what is a bad situation?

LV: At least they're trying to do something. That's really tough because that's what I think about, these women are trying to control their husbands. Exactly what you just said goes through my mind when these women are giving their husbands Playboy. And I just, I kind of cringe at the fact that you're with someone who you've married and you've professed your love and--I feel awful for people who have insecurity problems because the fact that they have to do that and they don't just know that their husband or fiancé loves them for just what they have, and they need to have other stuff, is an awful feeling.

SB: Right, so it's pretty sad that they would say that. It's pretty sad that they feel so broken that they have to give their husbands Playboy.

LV: Yeah. I mean, but if they can control it and that makes them feel better--

SB: What if they control it by saying to their husbands, you know, look, I know you need other women and all that, so--and I know that even the pictures aren't enough for you, and I don't want you to have an affair without my knowledge. I don't want you to lie to me. So I'm going to get you a woman on the side...

LV: I don't know [about] having sex, but I know that in my previous relationships, I've always been like, "Be open with me. If you want to see another woman, then tell me. Just tell me. And you know, if you're going to be with another woman and I can't be with you, then that's for me to decide." But I mean, in my relationships, my boyfriends and I have always been honest. You want to be with another person, fine. [But] if you want to have a threesome, don't ask me.

		A Playmate's Perceptions Nervous about talking to her rabbi On being the object of men's fantasies Why she said yes to being a Playmate Does nudity undermine female dignity? "The men who write to me" Her views on other Playmates Comparing herself to Monica ^ Top of article ^

SB: But wouldn't you say to them if they said, "I want to be with another person," wouldn't you say to them, "Go to hell?"

LV: I'd be like, "What's your problem? What's wrong with me?"

SB: Right. So you wouldn't put up with it?

LV: No.

What does pornography say to men about women?

SB: Okay. There's one more major theory against nudity and pornography and it goes like this: Pornography robs women of their civil rights and gives a force and degrading portrayal of a whole class of people.

I mean, we're both Jewish; that's what happened to the Jews in Germany. What Joseph Goebbels did was that he portrayed the Jews every day as money grubbing, as dirty, as racially impure, tainted blood, as parasites, as liars and cheats and thieves who want to control the world, etc., etc. Until after like 15 years of being subjected to this, the average German believed it. So when you kill a Jew, they didn't even have any pangs of conscience. It's no big deal. You're actually doing the world a favor by ridding it of such a rodent or such a pest.

So the theory goes like this: That what pornography does is portray women as mindless, stupid, as being there only for men. Bereft of dignity, prepared to take their clothes off for money, prepared to take their clothes off for celebrity. If it's pornographic movies, then it shows women as not needing any kind of romance, not needing intimacy. If it's a magazine, it portrays women as, you know, sure, you have your career aspirations and goals but the moment we put a pot of gold in front of you, you'll just take off your clothes.

So that after a while, it begins to portray women in the same way that racist writers have portrayed blacks or Jews. It gives the impression little by little that women are not intelligent, they have no ethics, they have no integrity. And other writers would go so far as to say in the same way that in Germany this led to the murder of Jews, some would say. this is what leads to things like rape or like beating your wife. You know, a woman says no, it means no. But for the guy, he's watched enough pornography and seen enough movies, read enough magazines that he thinks to himself, no, she means yes because I know that's what women want. What would you say to that?

LV: I wouldn't agree with that at all because I think more and more--especially, you know, education bringing--especially to universities, no is no. You know, women want more of a connection. They want a relationship. They want something solid. They want something they can have a conversation with.

And I just think that what most women want--they will not have sex unless it's going to be a commitment thing. So ultimately, I don't understand how a man would think, "Oh yeah, this is what she wants."

SB: Well, I couldn't agree with you more.

LV: They can have sex and be like, "Well, you expect me to call tomorrow?"

SB: I couldn't agree with you more. All studies show that women are more interested in intimacy than in casual sex, that they enjoy sex with love far more than sex without love. But what I'm saying is that nudity and pornography undermines that knowledge or belief in a man's head. If he opens a magazine, sure, yeah, they say they want intimacy but put enough money in front of them, that goes out the window, too.

LV: I don't think so.

SB: But isn't that what pornography is portraying?

LV: Yes, it's portraying that, but I don't think all women think like that.

SB: No, not women. But don't you see how if pornography and nudity becomes pervasive enough, men can start to believe little by little--this is like a form of propaganda--that this is what women want. Do you not see the danger in that?

		A Playmate's Perceptions Nervous about talking to her rabbi On being the object of men's fantasies Why she said yes to being a Playmate Does nudity undermine female dignity? "The men who write to me" Her views on other Playmates Comparing herself to Monica ^ Top of article ^

LV: Do you think intelligent men could believe that?

SB: Not all men are that intelligent.

LV: Obviously there is the demented few that have no concept of what women want. But I mean, I wouldn't think that just because a girl does a porno or because I'm laying inside Playboy magazine, that all I want is sex and that if you give me enough money that I'll have sex with you.

SB: But you said yourself that you had to now counter everyone's stereotype of a Playboy Playmate, correct?

LV: I do.

SB: So in other words, people do have that view of you and you have to change it now.

LV: No one says, oh, since you've been in Playboy, I bet you'd sleep with me.

SB: You don't think that some men think that?

LV: No.

SB: In other words, all the men that write to you saying, "I want to get to know you and everything"--you believe what they're saying? You don't think any of them just want like, you know, sex and nothing more?

LV: They may want that but I'm really not that sort of woman.

SB: Yeah, but the fact that you appeared in Playboy makes them think you're that kind of person, correct?

LV: It could make them think that but I don't understand where would they get that thought. I mean, I don't write in my data sheet I love to sleep with men. Just because I take my clothes off doesn't mean--you know, I look at it like, I have a nice body. I have a healthy body. And I knew that I'd be different from a lot of the other girls. That was the main reason why I did it. Knowing that I was Jewish, because my body is completely natural. I don't starve myself, I don't do coke, I don't--you know, do things to get into that league.

On school rumors

So there are stereotypes that I--people, you know, start rumors around campus about me like you would not believe. I'm constantly in defense on those things.

SB: Like what?

LV: My girlfriend says to me: "Lindsey, are you sick?" I'm like "No, why?" She says, "Because I heard you had herpes." I was like, "What?" She said, "I heard you were a lesbian, too." This is my girlfriend, it's one of my friends. She said, "I heard them talk about it at one of the fraternity parties the other night." I was like, "Are you kidding me?"

When I was high school, everyone was saying I got my chest done because I was really late to develop and people swore that I got my chest done. And I was like we don't live in Hollywood. I'm 17. My parents would never pay for that. I pay for school myself. Why the heck would they get me plastic surgery at that age? People say all kinds of things. People just make up things because--just because.

"The men who write to me"

They think because I'm a Playmate...they think that we're promiscuous. I mean, these men who write me, I laugh at them. These men are old enough to be my father and they are writing to me. Guys old enough to be my dad asking to date me, which is disgusting. Why would you waste your time writing me a letter? You think I'd be interested in dating someone my dad's age? You think my parents would accept that? I don't care if you're a doctor. I don't care if you're Jewish. I couldn't date someone 40 years older than me.

		A Playmate's Perceptions Nervous about talking to her rabbi On being the object of men's fantasies Why she said yes to being a Playmate Does nudity undermine female dignity? "The men who write to me" Her views on other Playmates Comparing herself to Monica ^ Top of article ^

So there are the intelligent men, who, we're hoping, don't think of women just as objects and that we just want to have sex, think of them as actual intelligent beings, that you know, in this day and age, we're actually moving higher than men, holding higher positions, making more money and being very independent.

"When I met other Playmates at the mansion"

SB: Well, if they're moving up in the world, why do they have to take off their clothes still in order to become celebrities? You said this is a steppingstone.

LV: Because that's exactly what they plan on trying to get it for and they don't care who is going to get it and they don't care what it takes, that's what they want.

SB: The average Playmate.

LV: Well, I'm not speaking for anyone else but I'm saying from what I've talked to the other girls, you know, some of their attitudes are, "Oh, well, I want stardom more than anything. I'll do anything to get it." And that makes me laugh. Like I just--honest to God, the reason why I chose Playboy is if it made a steppingstone for me, great. If not, that's fine, too, but guess what? I don't need the stress of wondering how to pay for school. All of this money basically went to pay for my schooling because I'm paying for my school myself and it is so stressful to know that, guess what? I may not be able to go to school because I don't have enough money.

SB: Okay, but clearly you sound to me like a moral and ethical human being. There are certainly things you wouldn't do to earn money for school, right?

LV: Right.

SB: Would you engage in prostitution for money?

LV: No.

SB: Okay, so here are things you wouldn't do for money?

LV: I know that it seems like okay, well, I took off my clothes so I could have money from Playboy but, I mean, it's to better myself, you know, not to go on to be the porn queen of, you know, Vivid TV or something, or Playboy TV or anything for that matter.

What the other girls that I've talked to use their money for is just like, I don't know, you can't even hold a conversation about anything. Being at the mansion was just like, Whoa, wake up call. I don't want to be involved. I don't want to fall, I don't want to hit the fast track and lose it like they do.

They are my motivation to stay in school, to make sure that I get my degree--I mean, it's upsetting when I've had to turn down jobs because I have classes but I'd really rather be at my class then, spending two hours with, you know, guys that can be a very big drag.

Her views on other Playmates

SB: So some of the other Playmates--

LV: They're not stupid, I'm not saying they're stupid--

SB: Yeah, but they fit the stereotype of women who are prepared to do almost anything to get ahead, is that right?

LV: Yes. Because that wasn't my goal when I did Playboy, it wasn't to try to get ahead. It was like if it was a steppingstone, great, and if it wasn't, guess what? I have a back-up plan. I never intended on doing Playboy. I lost a bet. My girlfriend said, "I know you can be in Playboy." I said "No way." You know my exact words? I don't fit that stereotype. I do not--I'm not like those girls. You know, I still don't fit the stereotype of them but, I mean, I am a Playmate.

SB: Okay.

LV: And I love all the girls that--I mean, I'm not belittling them or saying that I'm better than them because I would never say that. Because there's some stuff that I probably do wrong, too. But I mean, for the most part I--

		A Playmate's Perceptions Nervous about talking to her rabbi On being the object of men's fantasies Why she said yes to being a Playmate Does nudity undermine female dignity? "The men who write to me" Her views on other Playmates Comparing herself to Monica ^ Top of article ^

SB: But there are lines that they cross that you would not cross, is that correct?

LV: Yeah.

Comparing herself to Monica

SB: This is more of a flippant question, but is posing for Playboy a job for a nice Jewish girl?

LV: That's a one million dollar question. Because I posed for Playboy, am I not a nice Jewish girl anymore?

SB: Well, you know how people say that's not a job for a nice Jewish girl? What would you say to them?

LV: Look at what Chandra Levy is doing. And what was Monica Lewinsky doing?

SB: But they're not exactly the most respected people in America.

LV: No, and I think what they did was really negative compared to what I'm doing. I don't think I'm hurting anyone. I don't know. Trying to pay for an education so she doesn't have to depend on, you know, going over those lines to be successful. Because, you know, Hollywood isn't ultimately where I want to end up. If I end up there, great. If I don't, that's all right, I'll be happy.

SB: So you see posing for Playboy as a small compromise now which will save you from having maybe make big compromises later?

LV: Yeah.

SB: Okay. Let me just tell you that you really do come across as a highly intelligent young woman. I'm going to tell you outright that I don't think you made the wisest decision and yet I think you can go on to do great things. The problem is that, you know, the form you chose to portray yourself in may not reflect that intelligence and integrity and may, indeed, undermine it. But anyway, I've enjoyed this interview very much and I hope you'll do great things with your life, G-d willing, that reflect what is best is you and that is not reflected in Playboy.

LV: I mean, you definitely made me think and now you've made me think I'm a bad person--

SB: No, I'm not saying you're a bad person at all, G-d forbid.

LV: You know, like you ask me, you know, when I go home and tell my rabbi, what is he going to say to me? And like I go visit--

SB: Listen, the job of a rabbi, I believe, is to try to bring out the best in people, that's all. And from the things that you have said in this interview, it seems to me that your best has not come out yet. That in doing the pictures, that's not the best part of you. So it's not going to be judgmental. I just think that you're selling yourself short. I mean, for example, I have to take issue with one thing you said earlier. You said that throughout history women were lower than men. That's not true. In Judaism they were always seen as higher. Women were seen as being naturally superior to men. You know, in our religion, the Sabbath is the bride of the week. The six days, you know, Sunday through Friday are the man of the week, and the Sabbath is much higher and much holier.

LV: Yeah, well I'm not saying that we come out below, but it just seems like--like I'm learning about Islam and Hinduism and these women aren't always treated as equal...It's in Christianity, it's in Judaism, it's in [Islam], Hinduism, it's in every single one of them.

SB: Whoa, whoa, just a second. I can't defend all the religions here. I'm not a priest. But I can defend Judaism. I would have to take issue with that portrayal of Judaism. But just let me say one thing. Do you remember that you just said that in the spiritual traditions, you know, like in Tantra, Yab needs Yom, to bring out its energy, Yin needs Yang to bring out its energy? Well, Judaism likewise sees women as having the power to redeem men.

So in other words, one of the things a woman is capable of, amazingly, is that men want women so much that they are prepared to become gentleman in order to get them. But if they just deliver themselves to men with the guy making no effort, if they just take off their clothes to excite the guy, then what incentive is there for a man to work on himself and become worthy of a woman?

LV: Right.

SB: So, the question is, is posing in Playboy going to bring out the best in men or the best in you? That's the only question, its not a judgmental question. But it's a legitimate question, and I think that the answer to that is no.

LV: I just think of it as an accomplishment.

SB: If you cater to men's shallowness, is that the way in bringing out the best in them? Now...it's a question, not an allegation that you have done something wrong, you're not a criminal G-d forbid. You did not do what Monica Lewinsky did which was beyond nudity, she hurt another woman terribly.

LV: Right. It's like morals...but I didn't do anything like that.