Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus

An answer to Christian missionaries

jwbflyer

11/19/2011 12:51:04 AM

Matt 10:34-37 I agree with Mr. Wolpe that this reads unlike a moral model. However, in the philosophy, it makes perfect morality. Truth is a sword. My mother spoke to me of a relative that was applying for disability who really could work. I spoke out against it, in turth, and it divided me from my relatives. That is Matt 10:34-37 and that is high morality-when it costs and hurts. -------------- Luke 14:26 Again, I agree with Mr. Wolpe that this sounds nasty and disgusting. However knowledge of the difference of God and this world begins to turn you away from the ways of your friends/family that are divided from God and turn to the goodness which is from God. For the love and goodness is not from them but from God himself. If you enjoy the love from your mother to you, that is from God; thank him. To say, as Jesus does say, hate them is more of a hate for this world, and he goes further and identifies the last things you would cling to as still part of this world, to include your very own life (as divided from God, fallen). I would say it is not a matter of teaching you to hate, rather prioritizing who you really love. It is a polarizing journey seperating your desires, love, and worship from this world and toward God. But I know people will continue to read that and they will either hear his Memra or see fault. But I certainly understand any skepticism of the immediate understanding of the verse. ---------- Matt 21:17-19 The fig tree. This is a symbolic reaction showing the lesson of the TRUE VINE. John 15, start at verse 1. Again, if you choose to see it as an angry man fussing at a bush, then so be it. Respectfully, that is the way I see the scriptures you posted.

jwbflyer

11/19/2011 12:11:26 AM

I thank Mr. Wolpe for his article. It isn't healthy or smart to adopt or beleive in things without questioning. Over the last few years I myself have asked: Is Jesus God? -I'm being told that I must confess this by Christians so I need to give it serious consideration. Is Jesus the Messiah? -How can I join in on Sunday Jew-bashing and proclaim a **JEWISH** messiah if I don't know what Judaism teaches about the Messiah? My journey has been very long and amazing it involved the most humbel and serious prayers I have ever cried out along with amazing returns. My result is that I beleive God called me out of idolatry, plain and simple. He called me into a life of... well as Mr. Wolpe puts it, God didn't deliver Moses from bondage, into bondage, but to serve Almighty God. How do I do that? Regardless of if your Jewish or Christian, it says the same in both ends of the Bible: If you love me, then keep my commandments. My journey has put me in a position to destroy every theologian's polytheistic and idolatrous theological doctrine of the Trinity, or I like to call, the tri-unity. I've been in numerous debates and have either ended with trinitarians denying and refusing questions or flat out telling me that I was right. The sad thing is it usually ends with a weird smile and twinkle of an eye with them stating, "See! that is the mystery of the trinity". It was never a multi-faced Brahman. It is a story of Holy Matrimony. Be careful of Eastern doctrines, some carry swaztikas. I am trying to help Christians get back on the path of exactly what Jesus meant by fulfilling instead of abolishing Torah, which has happened by the way. If you can't tell me when and what the Sabbath is about, then it is abolished. If you have some New Covenant fulfillment applicaton, even that is better than flat-out abolishing it. Jesus' divinity..... I do not beleive in the blonde-hair, blue-eye Aryan god-man beleif. I beleive that to be a fulfillment of New Testement prophecy symbolized by the statue set up by Antiochus in the temple. And I surely do not say that God died as does Kirk Cameron and Need Him Ministries These two subjects (divinity, Messiah) are very important and very long to discuss. If you want to discuss these issues more in a friendly, humble discussion, please email me and let's talk. I will not offer you "TRUTH" but my beleif. God is not a man, nor can a man ever be God. Jesus Messiah.....I honestly understand Wolpe's position and respect that. How can I say there is no more suffering? Who wants to say a man is a "Doctor" if he has only finished half of med school? ***BUT*** I have heard the Memra in him and have chosen to follow him. I beleive he is the Messiah, Son of the Living God, though not finished. That is not by threats of hell, but by supreme love. Please email me directly if you would like to discuss this in-depth with me. Just click on my screen name.

riverslivnwtr

08/24/2011 01:33:37 PM

The actual reason why Jews do not believe in Jesus is because they're not supposed to.. only a few can believe.. The reason why is because the gentiles offer no real substance.. however there is proof of the resurrection..it is in the baptism in the holy Spirit Himself... :)

MAXTECH

08/16/2011 04:54:09 PM

How would you feel if you accidentally spit into Christ's face. Watch the Video that is downloadable @ http://www.outersecrets.com/real/the_full_intro.htm Watch it. Study it, and be sure to have a spare pair of clean underwear nearby. A DVD version of this Video, and more, are available @ http://www.outersecrets.com/real/download.htm

emraldctys

08/09/2011 12:38:14 PM

ALLFORTRUTH said: " However , how do we explain Jesus' resurrection? were all those Jews lying when they said they saw him after he was declared dead?(bear in mind he did predict his death and resurrection). secondly apart from claiming to be the son of God, in what way had he sinned?" This information is found in the Gospels and referenced in some of the epistles of the NT. So, the presumption by believer's is: What we read in the NT is incontrovertable truth and fact. But that is only because you don't know how the NT came about. t If you ask your pastor, he/she will prbably dismiss 'textual criticism' of the Bible as the Devil trying to discredit it. but you should read some good books on how and why the bible was constructed. You will find interesting things to ponder. Few if any of the writers you believe wrote it , actually wrote it. Most are anonymous writers drawing from earlier written and oral sources and each structuring the stories in a way that fit their beliefs and to encourage others in their local sphere to believe that way. A careful examination ill show marked differences in the interpretation of who and what Jesus was. These differences and conflicts are usually 'glossed' over by believers and forced together to make a picture of Jesus that the Early Christians would never understand or relate to. As far as the witnesses to the resurrection: were they sworn witnesses? Was all of there testimonies carefully documented and to what they saw ? If i see something , it is easy for me to say that there were lots of people around and 'they saw it too"? But did they?? DId I interview each and every one? Did I get a sworn statement. Common sense understands that no 2 people see the same thing and interpret what they saw the same way. I don't think that verse that says there were 500 plus witnesses to the ascension, or even the witnesses to the resurrection can be really trusted in any court of law. Additionally, if you study history you will see that there were a couple of other 'Sons of God' preaching and doing miracles a little before and around the time of Jesus and witnessess all say they saw the miracles, which included walking on water etc. There is secular writers confirmation about these others. Apollonius was the name of one of them and his followers accused Jesus of being a magician and fraud and Jesus' followers accused Appolonius of being a magician and fraud! I suggest reading ;The New Testament , A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings by Bart D. Ehrman. Just know this, your pastor , if graduated from an accredited Bible school/Seminary would be very familiar with this information. But you will note that they will never give their congregation this info because it causes a LOT of questions and may disturb your 'faith'. But, what is the point of faith, if that faith is based partial information? Not really faith, after-all, but indoctrination and gullibility.

frankmac

05/16/2011 02:56:01 AM

One of the statements is that Jesus told the disciples that their were some standing here who would not taste death till they saw (keyword) the Kingdom of God. Six days later, Peter, James and John (some standing here) saw the Kingdom when Jesus was transfigured in front of them. Peter later writes about this when he states that the vision they had on the holy mountain made the words of the prophets more sure (II Peter 1:16-20) He went on to talk about false teachers who would arise like there were false prophets among the people. Jesus fulfills all the requirements to be who he said he was. He said "If you do not believe that I AM WHO I AM you will die in your sins" Moses on Mt Sinai asked God His name. God responded I AM WHO I AM. Moses was transfigured with Jesus on the mountain. Jesus also is not a trinity. He is the Son whose name is Wonderful, counselor, Mighty God Eternal Father, and Prince of Peace. He came first for the Jew and then for the Gentile. Jews who believe Moses, should believe Jesus!

yosefrachamim

04/05/2011 11:52:40 AM

While I agree with much of what Mr. Wolpe has said in this article, I do recall that he was the "Rabbi" who in his Pesach sermon several years ago in Los Angeles, proclaimed that the events we celebrate during Pesach most likely never happened, i.e., that Moses never existed and the Revelation at Sinai was a fable. There, is credibility is non-existent for me. I would expect a "Why Jews don't believe in Moses" article from him to be more likely.

MAXTECH

01/26/2010 05:08:12 PM

TRUTH is the answer ! Head for the truth, rather than have a religious competition. Spend a week studying this web page and see who is here in the here and now, and who " BELIEVERS " still reject in a mere instant. http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm You are only dependent upon your religious beliefs if you are presently located at a distance from the truth, thus if you stick to your beliefs, you stick to being located at a distance from the truth. Thus if the truth is presented to you in the here and now, not only will you will not see it for what it is, you will reject it with every last drop of energy within you if necessary.

allfortruth

01/25/2010 11:51:30 PM

I am completely challenged when reading this and other article about the non-acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah. I am christian and i must admit that you present really convincing arguments. However , how do we explain Jesus' resurrection? were all those Jews lying when they said they saw him after he was declared dead?(bear in mind he did predict his death and resurrection). secondly apart from claiming to be the son of God, in what way had he sinned? I still believe he was the only perfect human being to walk this earth! We read of many great men in the bible from Abraham to Paul who have imperfect ways. We can all concede that they did things that had repercussions. Jesus is the only one i find that (once again apart from being 'blasphemous')did not sin against God.People may have objected to t what he said or the way he did some things, but he never said or did anything that offended God. To me, he did not display the fallible character that is typical of an ordinary human. The perfection and resurrection of Jesus Christ are what I believe make Him the Messiah lastly, Could the second coming of this Messiah Jesus bring about the redemption the Jews have been waiting for? Anxious for your responses.

allfortruth

01/25/2010 11:51:29 PM

I am completely challenged when reading this and other article about the non-acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah. I am christian and i must admit that you present really convincing arguments. However , how do we explain Jesus' resurrection? were all those Jews lying when they said they saw him after he was declared dead?(bear in mind he did predict his death and resurrection). secondly apart from claiming to be the son of God, in what way had he sinned? I still believe he was the only perfect human being to walk this earth! We read of many great men in the bible from Abraham to Paul who have imperfect ways. We can all concede that they did things that had repercussions. Jesus is the only one i find that (once again apart from being 'blasphemous')did not sin against God.People may have objected to t what he said or the way he did some things, but he never said or did anything that offended God. To me, he did not display the fallible character that is typical of an ordinary human. The perfection and resurrection of Jesus Christ are what I believe make Him the Messiah lastly, Could the second coming of this Messiah Jesus bring about the redemption the Jews have been waiting for? Anxious for your responses.

sagol7

10/13/2009 02:05:30 AM

Phew, yes, its the Christian Jesus that Jews do not need to or should have to accept. The ugly twisted Christian view is just that. Well, it's a relief that Jews would reject this Christian Jesus that they have all wrong anyway. It's no wonder, the Jesus they want everyone to know about has been made to look bad and wrongly. And I agree w/the Jews for Jesus thing as well. It is ridiculous. Jews are G-d's people no matter what, and Christians do not understand that Jews are a blessing and light to this world. The world exists because of them. We are not here to change them, but to join them! Jews do not need a savior when they do not need to be saved, they are already G-d's people by HIS choice, not the Jews choice. It's YESHUA, the real Jewish Messiah, that we must ALL know and recognize! Now, who is the REAL MESSIAH THAT WAS HERE AND WILL RETURN? The Christians don't know, that's for sure, and all other either. But there are Jews and non Jews who are getting to know the real Jewish Messiah, the living Torah, the Word that became flesh!

DanielWayneLewis

06/19/2008 02:32:13 PM

God doesn't have a son, daughter, or anything of the sort... This is what differentiates Judaism and Islam from Christianity and other polytheistic religions... Christianity, in it's belief of a "triune" God, is worshiping the same triune God of Hindus , who believe in a single God with three aspects...

bambolina

04/12/2007 12:22:17 AM

To me there is only one God and His message is clear to me. Do your best, help one another, do the right thing to the best of your abilities. Regardless of what "religion" you "belong to". We need to get off our high horses and learn to understand, accept and repect others. Just as we wish to be understood, accepted and respected. We should not be fearful of diversity and/or criticism. There is always room for improvement... it is the largest room in the house... May God bless us all!

Di1980

02/17/2007 10:33:28 PM

"mrmissy 10/1/2006 11:33:12 AM It's easy to call a martyr "peevish" when you live in your little Ivory Tower and have no fear of missing your next meal or being inconvenienced in any way." millions of Jewish martyrs were tortured to death by Christians over the last 2000 years. It's a historical fact.

rroze

10/02/2006 03:33:08 PM

Billthinks4himself: While we're casting rocks at each other's comic books, let's look at the "morality" of Abraham and Moses. Rabbi Wolpe HEE HEE I love this! You always make me laugh!

mrmissy

10/01/2006 11:33:11 AM

It's easy to call a martyr "peevish" when you live in your little Ivory Tower and have no fear of missing your next meal or being inconvenienced in any way. Rabbi Wolpe is only revealing his own very limited and unspiritual view of the word and the world. The peevishness which he attributes to the Great Man, is really his own. The Torah is full of contradictions and inconsistancies regarding God and his actions. In fact, God is a pretty bloody and mean spirited fellow at times in the Torah. Constrast that with Jesus. Who lived an "unhidden" life and actually "blessed" not "cursed" and massacred civilians. I think the Fig Tree got off rather easily. Perhaps there is a greater "spiritual" meaning regarding that poor, poor Fig Tree, Rabbi? How did you miss it? Perhaps your hinderance is that Ivory Tower that you live in?

mrmissy

10/01/2006 11:07:04 AM

"....and he relented" The bigger picture for some may be the dog reference. Sticks and Stones? The bigger picture for the Canaanite woman and her daughter, is that Jesus honored her request and cast out the devil from her. I think they had a rather great and advantageous day!

Eliava

08/28/2006 12:19:19 AM

Matthew 15: 21-28 When a Canaanite woman followed him, hoping he'd cast out the devil from her daughter he ignored her, claiming to have come for "the lost sheep of the house of Israel." When she asked him directly for his help, he replied "it is not meet to take the children's bread and to cast (it) to dogs." She replied that dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the master's table, and he relented. I'm Jewish and I knew he called a Canaanite woman a "dog" in the Christian bible.

brian1982

08/27/2006 11:28:54 PM

hello. This is a response to Buddhagnostic. I'm wondering were it is in the New Testament your quoting Jesus as insulting a woman by referring to her as a dog. Please don't state things as truth if you cannot back them up. I wish for you to show me this scripture, if you believe Jesus said this in the Bible. Sincerely, Brian

Buddhagnostic

08/16/2006 04:20:43 PM

How about Mark 4:11 where jesus claims to tell his lessons in parable LEST people understand them, repent and be saved. Nice! Then there is a passage in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) where Jesus insults a woman by referring to her as a dog - a sub-human. His treatment of the woman was apparently based on racist feelings. A God? - not in my book.

chanalee

06/30/2006 03:50:33 PM

Another wow. This is one of the best articles I have read on the subject. Thank You Rabbi Wolpe! I love being Jewish - I have found great happiness. spiritual, growth and a deep personal relationship with Our G-d within Judaism. I am thankfull for Christians, and honest people of othre faiths. The world needs all the good people it can get, and anyone can become a righteous person. So we disagree, so do many Jews disagree, It is not what we believe that counts , but how we live - how we love one another, respect one another, value one another. If your beliefs make you want to be cruel to me because I am Jewish, just remember what Rabbi Jesus said. If you think the Jew's need to be "saved", please read Hebrews Chap. 11. It might help. One thing all religious people need to be aware of is self-righteousness and the old "demon" pride. Shalom and thank you for your support of Israel dear Christian friends.

Radditzsu

06/27/2006 10:29:39 PM

Wow this is a hot button topic allright, this has gone from bad to worse! Haven't any of you people ever heard of interfaith diolouge? You people attack Wolpe's veiw points viscously while shoveing your own view points visiously down your readers throats. It allright to disagree and be offended, but don't lose your cool! I ask this, If Jesus was just a man does that make his contributions to the world any less significant? nd if he is the son of God, why does that invalidate other faiths?

wantingtobe

04/19/2006 08:25:32 PM

As we can see from the posts below this is a flamable subject. This question is always asked but no one wants to hear the answer. Rabbi Wolpe answers my questions completly. It is us to each one of us to decide what is best for us as individuals. As a life long christian, I am drawn to his answer as the truth.

PeaceDragon13

04/05/2006 01:51:28 PM

I often wondered if Jesus intended to make a new religion that broke away from the Jewish faith. Why couldn't Christianity "stay" Jewish and remain the sect that believe Jesus as the Messiah?

espiritus85

03/23/2006 02:24:49 AM

Obviously, that should be "prophecy".

espiritus85

03/23/2006 02:23:15 AM

It would be nice if for once people referred to something outside of texts. Don't show me a "phrophecy" on one page, then tell me to turn to another to see that is came true. Please. It's all very academic as far as I'm concerned.

delype

03/20/2006 09:45:19 PM

The author points out events in the life of Jesus and things he said which any human could do and therefore His divinity is not proven. What he leaves out though is the miracles performed by Jesus that no mere man could do. I don't want to get real long in my comment for fear of losing the readers, but each statement the author made that claimed contadictions to Jewish traditions which Jesus supposedly spoke and did can be legitimately explained with the Bible. The following 2 posts will attempt to address 2 points the author made. In reality in comes down to faith. Do we really belive John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” We as Christians should be walking the walk and not just talking the talk. 1Cr 13:13 and now there doth remain faith, hope, love -- these three; and the greatest of these [is] love. May the God of glory shine His light in your life.

delype

03/20/2006 09:08:12 PM

Jesus breaking the law, was a forshadowing of what his sacrifice would provide for us and that is freedom from the law. I believe when He said He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it He meant that to say that He would pay the penalty for our transgressions against the law. If you are speeding you have broken the law. If you are caught you receive a penalty. If you go to court and pay the fine, the law has then been fulfilled. Fullfillment does not mean to uphold, but means that laws have been broken, penalties have been paid, so the law is fullfilled, (satisfied) . Jesus' death on the cross, the ultimate blood sacrifice was the attonement for all the sins of the world, and according to Jewish law there must be a blood sacrifice for sin, then His sacrifice fullfilled the law. So until the law was fulfilled "not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Torah until all is accomplished." Accordingly, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross fulfilled the law.

delype

03/20/2006 08:59:57 PM

According to my bible, Jesus and his desciples were Hebrew. The Christian belief is rooted in Jewish beginnings. As in everything else that starts off good, Satan finds a way to corrupt. Jesus' instructions just before He ascended to the Father was to "Go ye unto all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned." (Luke 16:15 & 16.) Unfortunately some "Christians" took it upon themselves to believe they were responsible for providing the condemnation when unbelief and was encountered. Our only responsibility what we call the Great Commission is to preach the gospel. Simply, preach the gospel. We are not to twist arms, threaten or condemn verbally or otherwise if one chooses not to believe. Unfortunately Satan wormed his way in and created an apostate Christianity. It can't be denied that many atrocities were done in the name of Christianity, but that doesn't make the offenders Christians.

jahatbash

03/11/2006 05:43:23 AM

What if the Jews were the true Christians and the teachings of Akiba ben Joseph the true Gospels? In the end who would you trust more to deliver the truth, the Jews or the Romans?

johnny_socko

03/09/2006 03:19:21 PM

"I would not presume to tell Christians who is a Christian and emphatically reject the idea that the Christian community can tell me who qualifies as a Jew." The problem with this statment is that even a Christian would tell someone whether or not they are considered a Christian. If some one claims to be a Chrisitian, that is between them and God. The same thing as being a Jew. If someone claims to be a Jew, that is between them and God. It is entirely possible to be a Christian and a Jew. I know many.

cknuck

03/08/2006 10:13:45 PM

Very interesting article, the writer I’ve notice continually focuses on Christians and the Christian faith always comparing it critically with Judaism. The wording is tricky, nice but deadly; and to say Jesus was only saying what the prophets said before does not disprove that He was divine, of course He said what the prophets said, what else would you expect Him to say. And the low blow of trying to attribute the horrors of the holocaust literally sickens me. It’s a really low reoccurring tactic used to discredit Christians. The sleazy quote that: the Nazis who killed Jews may not have been Christians, but they were all sons and daughters of Christians is a all out bigoted attack. The jealousy of the attack on “Jews for Jesus” is also a low road.

wifeinlove

03/08/2006 01:02:00 PM

The article could have been interesting. I found myself disagreeing with many of his interpretations of Christian scripture (like Matthew 10 and Luke 14:26) I acknowledge my need for someone to explain the Jewish faith because my understanding is definitely lacking, but likewise, Rabbi Wolpe needs someone to explain Christian scripture to him, because, respectfully, he clearly doesnt understand it. It frustrates me that some nonChristians, like the Rabbi, can understand the complexities of their own faiths (and believe that their own writings require study and examination to understand), but then look at Christian scripture at its simplest and/or most literal. If one were to read Jewish writings with the same attitude, how well do you think he'd understand Judaism, as it really is?

jewsforjesus

03/06/2006 11:36:00 PM

Rabbi David Wolpe The primary reason that Jews do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah is that after his arrival and death the world was not redeemed. Doesn’t the need for redemption infer the need for salvation? If so, how is salvation achieved? By grace or works? God’s grace seems far more merciful to me than my works. I find mercy to be an expression of love and my works and effort in imperfection. A loving God who is just will provide the means of redemption, and faith (what the mind accepts to be true) seems to me to be a non-meritorious and fair means of salvation. Anyone can believe, we’re all equal in faith in Christ.

Diffie

03/05/2006 09:52:58 PM

As a Christian, I am just as insulted by Rabbi Wolpe's article as he is by "Jews for Jesus." Rabbi Wolpe makes the following statement in "Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus." "I would not presume to tell Christians who is a Christian and emphatically reject the idea that the Christian community can tell me who qualifies as a Jew." In fact, the Rabbi does tell us whom he believes to be Christian when quoting Mr. Berkowitz - "the Nazis who killed Jews may not have been Christians, but they were all the sons and daughters of Christians." Really? What specific research that brought Mr. Berkowitz to this conclusion. Did he survey former Nazi soldiers? It would surprise me greatly if most Nazis came from homes where there was much if any religous conviction of any kind. Even if all Nazis were "church members," being the member of a particular religous denomination does not make a person a Christian anymore than it makes him/her a frog.

RachelAJ

02/06/2006 11:30:50 PM

The Rabbi writes "When Jesus died, true believers had to theologically compensate for the disaster." True believers in what? If they had not seen him resurrected, what was there to believe in? Why would they perpetuate a lie? What was to gain? Money? An easy life? These simple Jewish fishermen (except for Paul later who was a Pharisee)in a few weeks after Jesus' death they went from a scared, hiding bunch of people, to a fearless, eloquent, tireless team, that taught and converted coutries, were beaten, imprisoned, and died gruesome deaths-and all this, according to the Rabbi, while they were proclaiming a lie, that they knew was a lie. I somehow cannot see 11 men, 10 of whom knew and lived with Jesus, enduring a tormented life and horrid death, just to spread what they knew was a lie. It just is not humanly possible. The only explanation is that they saw Jesus alive;it sustained them for a lifetime of great effort and hardship. And, the Rabbi writes that Jesus was born in Rome?????

carisin

12/23/2005 06:00:31 PM

When I was in elementary public school, my best girlfriend was in Catholic school. We used to do our homework togeher. I remember one day when she wss doing her speling homework, she showed me a fill-in-the-blank item that said, "Missing mass is a mortal sin, and you will go to hell." We both had a great lauch over it. What a sentence for the third grade! In short, she's no longer Catholic. Wha

Daniel88

11/19/2005 05:31:14 PM

Rabbi Wolpe writes, "I would not presume to tell Christians who is a Christian." However, in the very same article he also says the following: "As the theologian Elieser Berkowitz put it, the Nazis who killed Jews may not have been Christians, but they were all the sons and daughters of Christians." Therefore, while the Rabbi claims he would not presume to tell us who is a Christian, he contradicts himself by saying that every single one of the murderous Nazis was raised by parents who were Christians! Ironically, the Rabbi also, in this same deceptive and polemical article, falsely criticizes Jesus' teachings as being "contradictory." It seems the spiritual principle Jesus taught "Judge not so that ye may not be judged [Matt 7:1, KJV]" will still be fulfilled when a person makes a *false* judgement about someone else (i.e. about Jesus Himself).

chucknova

11/03/2005 08:59:38 AM

> The thing is that we never claim that Avraham Avinu and Moshe Rabbeinu are perfect. The Bible is chock full of real men with real flaws who despite these flaws - or perhaps, because of them - are fit carriers and teachers of a tradition of righteousness, charity, and justice.

lv2plsgod

09/29/2005 02:08:55 PM

Thank you Rabbi Wolpe for the part you played in my decision "NOT" to purchase your material or listen to your Gibberish about "THE AWESOME WONDER"..."THE GREAT I AM." The point that you are missing is this: When God created Adam and Eve they defied God and went against his orders. Now I understand why the confusion...man & woman made a mess of things in the beginning and nothing has changed in the present. We think that we are obligated to know every move of God - we are not. If we did - we may fall short (as always) and let the enemy in! That is why the gift of Prophecey is given to a select few.

eltonsecret

09/11/2005 04:44:13 PM

God says in the holy scriptures: Has a nation changed it's god ? I am the one true god there is no other besides me. Gods anger toward this people Israel was because they turned away from him to serve other gods. Isn't the message from the lord himself enough for all you to believe that he is right and man is wrong. God says: curse is the man that believes in man. You decide, who will you fear, god or what man tells you ?

jorge84

08/02/2005 04:43:33 PM

if jesusisnt the mesiah, then who is?hes late isnt he?

BillThinks4Himself

07/07/2005 05:42:21 PM

While we're casting rocks at each other's comic books, let's look at the "morality" of Abraham and Moses. Rabbi Wolpe goes on about the morally iffy words of Jesus, as dictated decades or centuries after his death, but what about Abraham and Moses? Abraham lied about being married to Sarah, and was willing to let other men touch her rather than face the risk of owning up to her. He also slept with the maid, Hagar, and had a child from her - and provided no support to them when Sarah had them booted from the household. Later on, he came within an inch of murdering his son because a voice in his head told him to do it. Then, there's Moses, the guy who wrote, "Thou shalt not kill" after fleeing Egypt for killing an Egyptian. Moral examples these two are not.

eastcoastlady

06/01/2005 08:36:10 AM

Chidrake, Yes, buuuuuuut...... It's our refusal to accept Jesus as divine / the son of G-d / the Messiah that leads so many Christians to so deride us.

chidrake

05/30/2005 02:45:27 AM

i believe our disagreemnet on whether jesus is the son of god is secondary to our refusal to completely seek and understand the deep rooted reasons causing a division between ou two religions.

Adatyeshua

05/16/2005 02:24:44 PM

I was disappointed with Rabbi Wolpe. Scholars like Boyarin, including his newer contribution "Border Lines", along with Douglas Harinck, "Paul Among the PostLiberals and Magnus Zetterholm, "The Formation of Christianity in Antioch: A Social-Scientific View of the Separation of Judaism and Christianity" These see a totally different reality concerning the immediate centuries following the life of Jesus. Rabbi Wolpe in referring to Levine's book betrays a discussion in which Jews and Christians can get along while trying to control truth in Jewish modern terms concerning the anti-missionary approach. Look for the soon to be published book (November -Brazos Publishing) by Mark Kinzer; "Post-Missionary Messinaic Judaism" for an effort to have Jewish/Christian dialogue on a more honest and respectfullevel in light of current scholarly concerns.

saadaya

05/05/2005 11:08:44 AM

I have to agree that it's an error to think of Paul as a prophet. He never met Jesus in life and did not share his values. His stance on women 'covering themselves' and not speaking in church is more comparable to Taliban Islam than to the teachings of the historical Jesus, who always included women and treated them fairly.

cathar1950

05/03/2005 09:35:37 PM

I think I might concure with windbender I think punpkin should be shreded and made into pies. There are so many diffrent messiah concepts. any priest king and even Cyrus were messiahs. G-d saves(maybe maybe not?)supose to be worshiped what ever that is is all confused in just attributes and definitions. And it all could be nuts. i try to remember to water my plants.

windbender

05/01/2005 09:13:19 PM

Messianics...AGAIN! Man, and I thought evangelicals could shove a pumpkin through a keyhole.

barriessew

02/15/2005 11:57:47 AM

#8 Post: As far as Paul is concerned, the majority of all his teachings and doctrines are false. So Christians should just read what Jesus said alone and disregard Paul's teachings. Just like in ancient times there were false prophets among the people,it is the same with Paul. As far as Christians go and the Law, the Law is not "Love God with all your heart...and love your neighbor as yourself", but RATHER, the Law IS SUMMED UP by these two commandments, for there are over 613 commandments that must be obeyed. In the love of our Father and His anointed one Yehoshua, Barrie

barriessew

02/15/2005 11:56:48 AM

#7 Post:and again in John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Just like Psalm 8 says. Just like the high priest was a mediator between God and man, no man could come to God unless the high priest made atonement for him on Yom Kippur. And so,Yehoshua is the priest FOREVER in the order of Melchizedek through his own blood by the sacrifice of the Father, our God, in order to fulfill Isaiah 53:10 "It pleased the Lord to bruise him, he hath put him to grief, and now made his soul an offering for guilt." So,therefore, believe that this one is the prophet, the Messiah to fulfill the scenario of the Abraham and Isaac story. And the scenario to come is the Pharaoh/Joseph story when Yehoshua will come and be ruler of all and do away with the wicked and to have the great Sabbath of rest.con't

barriessew

02/15/2005 11:11:54 AM

#5Post: Proverbs 8 says,'I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was....Then I was by Him, [as] one brought up [with Him]: and I was daily [His] delight, rejoicing always before Him;" For Yehoshua is the very one who made the heavens and the earth by the Father's command, as written. He was also anointed king over all by the ONLY GOD of Israel, THE ONLY GOD IN EXISTENCE, so all who do not honor the king do not honor our Father, the Almighty God. This is why Yehoshua is Messiah, as we spoke about in Daniel 7 above.con't

barriessew

02/15/2005 10:35:10 AM

#3 Post: Yehoshua told all to obey the law of Moses, as he said in Matthew 23:2-3 "Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and DO." Christians are not taught to obey the law, for they believe in the falsehood of the apostle Paul who was a deceived false teacher. They believe that all you have to do is believe and accept Jesus and then you are saved by grace and "led by the spirit"...what a FALSEHOOD!! They will never enter His gates. Now, back to the main question of this article, "is God perfect? is Jesus perfect? is the holy spirit perfect?" You are correct in what you said, "if God is perfect, then the other 2 are superfluous"-for the spirit regarding a third person does not even exist, and since Jesus is NOT God, he is not perfect in himself, but he is made perfect by obeying perfectly, for he obeys the Almighty perfectly, for Jesus himself said, "Call no one good but God." con't

barriessew

02/15/2005 10:24:11 AM

#2 post: And to feed off from here, Daniel by prophetic vision looking into the future past the resurrection of YHWH's Messiah, when he was resurrected, and ascended into heaven, he fulfilled Psalm 110:1,"YHWH said to my Adonai, sit at My Right Hand"..for this is where Daniel says "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before Him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.This was to fulfill the very prayer of Yehoshua in John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was." con't

barriessew

02/15/2005 10:20:51 AM

First of all, the trinity is a false pagan doctrine and it is very true that Yehoshua was Moshiach and obeyed ALL of the law of Moses, without fail. You are also right when you said it is expected that there be no more wicked, etc when Messiah comes, or came. But, you're missing the whole picture here,...you have to understand that the Abraham and Isaac scenario had to come first before the Pharaoh and Joseph scenario in the Torah(where the father is supposed to kill the son and believes in the resurrection in order to be the father of many nations, for Isaac was still a lad,where this scenario had to come first before the pharaoh and Joseph scenario-where the one who sits on the throne gives all authority, dominion and power to a single person,so that no one could do anything without his okay)...these stories represent Father and Son. con't

EarthyGrl82

02/06/2005 02:12:47 PM

I can see some truth in this article, but to shorten my comment I would like to say that I found a lot of skewness in the information presented. I am by no means a Christian, but I can see where the Rabbi has slighted his presentation a bit. The best we can hope for from ANY religion is that it teaches us to grow together as a population and not to let it divide us. Let us remember the Golden Rule that is found in every faith: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

LivingEZ123

02/03/2005 10:25:55 PM

Many modern “Christians” would probably feel quite comfortable with many of the modern forms of “Judaism”. Anyone who approaches scripture with a modern rational view could not believe in the “mechanical salvation” or the literal truth of mystical formulations. Humans are not God. There is, however, no arguing with the irrational. Much of what is passed off is learned ignorance and unexplored historical errors. You don’t have to be “Jewish” to recognize the central influence of Judaism and Jewish culture any more than one has to be Greek to recognize the important contributions of Greek civilization. For many people preserving childhood indoctrinated symbols blocks the acceptance of truth. This is less so of "liberals" than the bigoted bantings of the right wing.

SONOFMAN2000

11/30/2004 12:23:37 PM

Christianity is perceived as a religion with divine license to sin, no way! Christian morality is even stricter, because we are called to Love one another as a added commandment and to turn the other cheeck which does have it's origin in Judaism but not as commandment as it is in Christianity. What Judaism have as valid and strong foundation which all promise and hope rest on is the Torah, still binding and practical as with the Judeo-believing and later non Jewish believer (Christian) NT Gospel and writing of the Apostle whose knowledge foundation is the Torah.

enddie4u

11/02/2004 09:50:29 PM

(Jeremiah 31:31-33)is the answer to your questions VigiDivine.You see this is not what many Christians will tell you is "the new covenant". Well, at least not in the way that we Christians understand is the new covenant. You see when the words new covenant are mentioned by a Christian it simply means that we observe the law from a spiritual standpoint rather than the literal way. Jesus Himself referred to Himself as the fulfillment of the Law, rather,that He came to fulfill the Law, so we, because we are imitators of Christ, we fulfill the Law in that way.Also what Jeremiah 31:31-33 means is that God would give unto the Hebrews a new way of observing the Law. A way in which they would want to obey God. Like God spoke through His prophet Ezekiel (Ezekiel 11:19,20), that He would give them one heart and a new spirit and an obedient heart of flesh. Wow! The Word, the Torah, is that powerful, that it can completely renew the hart of a man. That's hot!

ejeremy2003

10/25/2004 07:15:49 AM

How about all the prophecies about Jesus made in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New? Consider Psalm 22, a Messianic Psalm, and one of the many prophecies about Jesus in the Bible. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Psalm 22 What Jesus cried when on the cross. "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture." Psalm 22 What the Roman soldiers did with Jesus's clothes before he was crucified. "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet." A prophecy by David describing the how Jesus would die "They look and stare upon me." The whole psalm talks about Jesus and his death. Read Isaiah 53, it describes the life and significance of his death perfectly.

BlueNote

09/03/2004 11:30:14 AM

God literally carried the Jews out of Egypt, through the Red Sea, and across the wilderness in the palm of his hand, and yet the Jews disobeyed and turned their back on God at every turn. Even Moses disobeyed God, and as a result was not allowed to enter the promised land. I don't think the Rabbi would discount the Jewish religion because of the failings of Jews, but that is exactly what he has done to Christianity. This is a silly argument. If people always made the right choses, there would be no need for a savior. The reality is that more often than not we make selfish decisions knowing fully that there is a better option. Being a Christian or a practicing Jew will not change our nature. Only by God's grace our we redeemed.

Goshdangit

08/29/2004 06:41:28 PM

People are lazy, and choose to make finding truth easy. You have to earn, and prove yourself to God, that you deserve to be given the truth. Jesus did deserve it. Jesus was sent to help mankind save themselves, not to save them through his death. He died to prove to those who did not believe him that he was truly who he said he was, God's messenger.

Goshdangit

08/29/2004 06:41:08 PM

If Jesus is the Messiah, the world would have ended 2000 years ago. That is what the Jewish people expected. They expected God to come and save everyone. That is one of the reasons why Jesus is thought to be God, that he came and saved people. By following him, and searching inward you can become saved. It's up to you to save yourself, not Jesus. He and God are there to help you, but you have to do the work. Jesus is the son of God, because he is an angel. He is also a mediator between man and God. Why people say that it is wrong to say Jews for Jesus, is beyond me. Jesus was and is Jewish. Not only ethnically, but spiritually Jewish. Not all of those who say they are Jewish are Jews. There are Jews who are Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, and other religions. The true Jews, are the 144,000 talked about in Revelation.

VigiDivine

08/02/2004 08:32:17 AM

I would like to see a debate on Romans 1-4, since Paul claims that the whole enterprise of following the law is doomed to failure. Hebrews 10:4 says even the temple system is clearly inadequate to justify us before a holy God. Echoing Jesus' statement in Matthew 5, the apostle Paul says in Romans 3:31 "Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law". You can't pit Jesus against Paul, they are on the same team. So what could "fulfilling the law" mean, hmmm? Mostly what I've heard about Jesus' moral teaching, including from Jews, is that Jesus was impossibly idealistic. But that stance is not consistent with "fulfilling the law", is it?

enddie4u

05/01/2004 09:07:45 PM

You are right, simple faith in Him is not enough. James himself said that "Faith without works is dead"If I live my life the way Christ preached I should then that must mean that I have enough faith that I know He will reward me for it.Also Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin.But since you keep saying you see, your sin remains." (John 9:41)Stop your judging, I never said that faith alone will save because it is good that we believe in one God, but the demons believe that too and they tremble with fear.(James 5:11-12, 2:18-24,1:26,not including last quote)This is not blind praise it is ministering to those who need Him, if you are concerned about these posts take advantage and preach because you know the Word my friend.

jedispy

04/29/2004 10:38:11 PM

I am a minister in His church. One thing that truly concerns me when I read these posts is the blind praise for the Lord that come from posts like enddie4u. The Lord made it very clear that simple belief in Him is not the way to salvation...without living our lives as he did. Many ask me on Sunday, "would Jesus recognize His church today." My answer is often no. Jesus ministered to the undesirable and the unwanted without judgement...in his day they were tax collectors and whores. Today, they could be gays/lesbians and heroine addicts. Please, remember the words of James: James 3:9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. 11Can both fresh water and salt[1] water flow from the same spring? 12My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

enddie4u

04/13/2004 04:50:00 PM

I end with this Jesus Himself shall set up His physical reign anyone who reads this is without excuse before God.Pray to Jesus and let Him save you.Do you find out if He's really alive, come to Him in prayer and stop trying to disprove or prove Him; all I've done is explain Him to you it is up to you to receive eternal life through Him.

enddie4u

04/13/2004 04:44:19 PM

I know many peple speak against Jesus by saying these lies but Jesus was born in Bethelehem Ephrathah and raised in Nazareth, a city in Galilee.

enddie4u

04/13/2004 04:41:47 PM

Jesus Himself never said "The Jews killed me," so for any "Christian" to presume that only Jews killed Jesus is simply ignorant and I would like to apologize sincerely on behalf of those hypocrites because Jesus teaches, "Love your neighbor as much as yourself"Jews did kill Jesus but with the help of Roman authorities and besides He came to die for anyone of any generation that might believe in Him.

enddie4u

04/13/2004 04:32:35 PM

Again in #4 Jesus said these things in a spiritual sense,would it make sense if a person said that a thousand years from now I would still be walking on Earth in bodily form,- no.He meant before they lose hope in Him, He also said at the end of time,which some Christians mistook for their time period,the Bible itself testifies to technological advances before the end "Who are these that fly as a cloud, as doves to their windows?"(Isaiah 60:8)For us not to believe in the promise of God is to commit spiritual suicide, in Ezekiel it describes it in the Valley of Dry Bones (Ezekiel 37:7-11 also 14)

enddie4u

04/13/2004 04:18:26 PM

Oh the teaching I meant was the one in Matthew 10:34-37 and the fig tree was a simply Jesus giving the people a reason to believe in Him this is why (John 14:11)

enddie4u

04/13/2004 04:14:06 PM

As for number 3, this is not a teaching but a claim to deity.It is the exact parallel and an elaboration of "...you should love the LORD your GOD,with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, and all your strength."(Deutoronomy 6:5)This is also why the majority of the people of His time did not believe in Him, they simply could not understand such a complex teaching because of their lack of study.(Habbakuk 4:6)They brought condemnation on themselves.This answers your question in #1

enddie4u

04/13/2004 04:14:00 PM

As for number 3, this is not a teaching but a claim to deity.It is the exact parallel and an elaboration of "...you should love the LORD your GOD,with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, and all your strength."(Deutoronomy 6:5)This is also why the majority of the people of His time did not believe in Him, they simply could not understand such a complex teaching because of their lack of study.(Habbakuk 4:6)They brought condemnation on themselves.This answers your question in #1

enddie4u

04/13/2004 04:13:39 PM

As for number 3, this is not a teaching but a claim to deity.It is the exact parallel and an elaboration of "...you should love the LORD your GOD,with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, and all your strength."(Deutoronomy 6:5)This is also why the majority of the people of His time did not believe in Him, they simply could not understand such a complex teaching because of their lack of study.(Habbakuk 4:6)They brought condemnation on themselves.This answers your question in #1

enddie4u

04/13/2004 04:13:29 PM

As for number 3, this is not a teaching but a claim to deity.It is the exact parallel and an elaboration of "...you should love the LORD your GOD,with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, and all your strength."(Deutoronomy 6:5)This is also why the majority of the people of His time did not believe in Him, they simply could not understand such a complex teaching because of their lack of study.(Habbakuk 4:6)They brought condemnation on themselves.This answers your question in #1

enddie4u

04/13/2004 04:01:23 PM

As for argument 2 the law was made to convict men of their own guilt before God in Matthew 7:6-8 it explains why the Law had to go unpracticed and also in Isaiah 29:13, this caused conformity in the heart of people and people started to sin carelessly, therefore provoking God to withdraw His presence from men, which is clearly not His intention.

enddie4u

04/13/2004 03:50:01 PM

The world goes throughout the same pain and suffering because the prophecies Jesus explained in Matthew 24 must be fulfilled also along with the prophecies of Ezekiel 35-39. To name only a few.

enddie4u

04/13/2004 03:45:57 PM

Also the Father is the One who made these things happen hence Jesus'claim,"Believe that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me..."(John 14:11)And so God Himself is three in one but there are still some things we do not know about the Trinity.Sorry for huge explanations and hope for the ability to discuss more things with anyone who wants to.

enddie4u

04/13/2004 03:40:22 PM

Since He locked Himself out of Earth His Spirit dwelled with men.But in the Bible it never says that God spoke without first covering His presence so that men would not die by seeing such a thing.God always used what is described in the Torah as a messenger, most of the time a human. Now since God made men out of dust and gave them power to rule then He had to use a person, a human, to become a medium for His message,His redemption,and His grace(sound waves are distorted if not first going through a solid medium)So in this Isaiah 59:16 is explained,and since blood makes redemption for the soul(Leviticus 17:11)the person to redeem and therefore remove sin (Isaiah 53:11)must have to become a living sacrifice.So the second part of the Trinity is not superfluos.Since all people sinned and only God was perfect, God had to reteach what He had been teaching all along and fulfill the prophecies written before in the form of a man.Hence the person of Jesus the Christ from Nazareth (Isaiah 1:11)

enddie4u

04/13/2004 03:22:30 PM

Now since He had said "Let them" He had locked Himself out of Earth so that now He had limit Himself to a theophany of some sort to reveal His all too powerful glory to man.Another way to view it is that by His Spirit He was able to manifest Himself to Moses (Exodus 32:32,KJ bible shows hyphen meaning untranslatable sentence-language of God-mentioned in the Mishnah I believe in most ancient Hebrew texts translated into the bible)

enddie4u

04/13/2004 03:14:26 PM

Rabbi,in Genesis,1:26,it says that God said,"Let us make human beings in our likeness(why would God refer to Himself as plural?).And let them rule... When God said let them rule over the fish in the sea,etc,etc,He gave them power to rule.Only kings can rule over such a broad territory.So basically He made men kings over the Earth;but kings gave their power over to evil,and since it says you must be blameless before the Lord your God(Deutoronomy 18:13)that means that God will not accept the sacrifices the Israelites gave.He therefore withdrew His prescence from Israel and then they were in need of remission of sin.

enddie4u

04/12/2004 01:40:46 PM

So Jesus is and was and always will be the Messiah

enddie4u

04/12/2004 01:38:01 PM

Psalm 34:20 No bones broken Isaiah 53:9 Buried with the rich Psalm 16:10-11;49:15 Resurrected from the dead Psalm 68:18 Ascended to right hand of God Malachi 3:2-3 His coming glory Zechariah 13:1 His blood would cleanse sin Zechariah 13:6 Scars in hands and side Zechariah 13:7 Deserted by disciples

enddie4u

04/12/2004 01:28:59 PM

Isaiah 53:7 Silent to accusations Isaiah 50:6 Spat upon and smitten Isaiah 50:8 Would be tried even though innocent Isaiah 50:11 Some woul not believe in Him Isaiah 59:20 Savior would preach Word of God Psalm 35:19 Hated without a cause Isaiah 53:5 The sacrificial Lamb Isaiah 53:12 Crucified with criminals Psalm 22 (Exact description of crucifixion and part A of verse 1 was quoted by Christ Jesus on cross) Zechariah 12:10 Pierced through hands, feet, and side Psalm 69:21 Given vinegar Psalm 22:18 Soldiers gambled for coat

enddie4u

04/12/2004 01:17:13 PM

Genesis 1:26 His pre-existence Genesis 3:15 Born of the seed of a woman Genesis 12:3 Of the seed of Abraham Genesis 49:10 Isaiah 9:6-7 Heir to the throne of David Micah 5:2 Born in Bethelehem (House of bread, "I am the bread of life") Daniel 9:25 At the appointed time Isaiah 7:14 Born of a virgin Jeremiah 36:30 (This explains why he was to be born from a virgin and it gives more spiritual credibility to His declaration of diety and being the Son of the Father) Psalm 2:7 Declared to be Son of God Deutoronomy 18:15 Would be a prophet Isaiah 52:13 thru 53 (Explains reason and also the suffering of the long awaited Messiah also shows He was rejected by His own)

enddie4u

04/10/2004 03:07:32 PM

I would, as a christian myself, would like to point out that God is just and He cannot tolerate wrong.You are also not understanding the fact that over 26 prophecies in the Torah were fulfilled in the person of Jesus. If you wish I can explain them for you. If so, write back to me I would love to discuss Christ with an educated individual as yourself.

davidchai

12/29/2003 09:49:30 AM

Actually he does not properly fulfill any of them. Or more specifically, he is not the only one who fulfills the few that he does fulfill. As for your quote from the New Testament, remeber, we place no validity in that book. You are, of course, welcome to do so but we do not and that will not likely change.

SkyOwl00

12/28/2003 06:03:53 PM

The God of Israel said unto the Apostles, "This is my beloved son, hear him" and many died for that testimony

SkyOwl00

12/28/2003 05:52:10 PM

To davidchai, Jesus fullfills all of the prophecies of the scriptures, and i agree , the moshiach is not to be worshipped,

davidchai

12/24/2003 08:22:39 PM

If you look at what Christianity calls the Old Testament in its original Hebrew, instead of the Greek to Latin to whatever, you will see that none of the so-called prophesies were fulfilled correctly. And none of the very few requiremetns to be moshiach were fulfilled. Also, NOWHERE does it allow for worshipping moshiach. IF Christianity wants to have their own interpretation of what is written that is its right. But don't tell Juydaism that we have ours wrong.

amandaatwork

12/24/2003 09:41:24 AM

My pastor spoke on this very topic last Sunday. In the birth of Christ, there were over 300 Old Testament prophecies fulfilled, from the blood line of Jesus down to details of his birth and life. There was a man (and forgive me, I don't recall his name) who used only 8 of those prophecies in modern-day scientific evaluation, said that the odds that Jesus was the Messiah, according to these prophecies, is something like 10^17. All else aside, that's pretty convincing. By the way, Jesus wasn't born in Rome. He was born in Bethlehem, aka the city of David, which you will also find in Old Testament prophecies.

maxpontifex

12/23/2003 08:20:52 PM

8. Most Christians don't support the liquidation of Judaism and in fact the opposite is true. Pope John Paul II has visited synagogues, been honored by Jewish historians, religious leaders, and civil leaders. The Holy See and other Christian entities have established relations with Israel. Also, the Pope was the one that initiated the world religious summits of Assisi in which religious leaders from around the world gathered and communally discussed and prayed. Side note: I do not support "Jews for Jesus" or the proselytizing of any person of any faith. The Rabbi is right that; if one leaves the community of Faith then one leaves the community of ethnicity. The same applies to Catholicism. You cant have "Protestants are Catholics," and you cant have "Jews for Jesus." (con)

maxpontifex

12/23/2003 08:20:18 PM

6. If Judaism sought a clear distinction between God and man than where did the concept and theology of the Messiah come in. The reason the Jews of the time didn't accept Jesus as Christ was because of how they saw the Messiah. The Jews of the period were in a state of oppression and believed that the Messiah would come in a form resembling a Roman God or Emperor wielding a powerful sword on a white horse commanding an army that would remove the Roman Occupation. 7. Jesus did indeed focus more on internal spirituality and it was because of his enlightened state and his desire for the enlightenment of others. Jesus grew up dirt poor in Nazareth not Rome. Jesus knew little of Roman law but focused what he knew on reforming it and reforming Jewish law which he knew greatly. Jesus did discuss Jewish law outright by confronting the Priests on corruption and by stopping a mob about to stone a woman for adultery, which was the Law. (con)

maxpontifex

12/23/2003 08:19:05 PM

4. I would remind the Rabbi of the account in which over 50 people in and around Jerusalem witnessed Jesus' Ascension. 5. I certainly cannot deny the Rabbi's claim of Jewish disbelief in Christianity due to history. I can only ask that they accept our apologies and seek for reconciliation with us as laid out by both Jewish leaders and Christian leaders such as Pope John Paul II. (con)

maxpontifex

12/23/2003 07:36:51 PM

Those early years are the years of the Orthodox and Catholic faiths and neither Churches have EVER believed that. The Orthodox Abode of the Dead and the Catholic Purgatory are proof of this. That belief came with Calvinism and predestination. Also, why is it that the Dalai Lama and Buddhists who follow him have called Jesus a Bodhisattva ("an enlightened being who is dedicated to saving others" in Buddhism) but Judaism calls him peevish. I think that speaks volumes.

maxpontifex

12/23/2003 07:35:55 PM

3. To call Jesus or his teachings immoral is by far the most offensive thing I have heard from a Rabbi in quite a long time, in fact ever. It is quite shocking and it speaks volumes for this Rabbi's intolerance and fundamentalism. Another key note is the Rabbi's misinterpretation and lack of understanding of Church doctrine. I take special offense because when the Rabbi says that it was normative doctrine in the early centuries of the Church that a man can live abominably, and yet get to heaven while noble humans who don't share the same Christian faith as the abominable man die in eternal hell. (con)

maxpontifex

12/23/2003 07:34:12 PM

1. I thought we weren't going to quote Bible passages back and forth dear Rabbi. 2. In regard to the Law and Jesus being an adherent to it. There can be no doubt that Jesus was a staunch believer in the Law and followed it. But remember this, Christians do follow the Law today as they did early on in the form of adherence to the Decalouge or Ten Commandments. Not only that but Christ's comment, "I have not come to abolish the Law, but to Fulfill it," goes towards his morality and enlightened state. Remember that under Jewish Law women could be stoned to death for even an allegation of adultery or that homosexuals were to be put to death immediately upon suspicion. Not to mention the other numerous laws. Jesus spoke out against these injustices and sought to reform the Law.

davidchai

12/15/2003 01:21:49 PM

Let me clarify my last post. What I meant by my last statement: "And because the hebrew/Christian (messianics) are NOT practicing the religon of Judaism their opinions do not count." I meant that their opinion of what is proper or correct Judiac worship , practice or belief, does not count. They may have an opinion but they do NOT speak for Judaism and thier interepretation of TaNaKH hold no authority from a Judaic perspective.

davidchai

12/13/2003 02:43:29 PM

Willong, 2 things. Having read your profile. You are not a Jew in any stretch of the word. You were not formally converted through the Reform, Conservtive or Orthodox movements. That is the ONLY way that someone not born of Jewish parents can be Jewish (as in a member of teh people of Israel not the Jewish Religion.) And the church you belong to worships Christianity. You say: So, any broad statement about 'What Jews Believe' is impossible. The best that can be said is that it is what the particular Jew talking believes." One this you are wrong. ALL of Religious Judaism (and the vast majority of secular Judaism) say that you cannot worship or deify Jesus and be practicing any form of the Jewish Religion. And becasue the hebrew/Christian (messianics) are NOT practicing the religon of Judaism their opinions do not count.

calderthesolitary

10/26/2003 12:44:35 PM

continued... ...but at the same time, I also find great merit in the teachings of the great ones who would gather in Beit HaMikadesh and spend all their hours just talking Torah. I mean, if only ONE person (as in person of flesh and blood) was "chosen" to be the great One, then why do we have all sorts of "contributors" to Talmud...and still continue to study all of their writings? At least for me (as I can only speak for myself) I find that if we take the qualities that we learn of what Messiah is supposed to be and live those qualities -- I mean REALLY LIVE those qualities -- regardless of our religious paths, wouldn't it be all the better? Wouldn't WE as humanity be making the world around us just and good? If Moshiach comes to a world that is just and good, I, for one, would feel all the better knowing that he/she/it is walking among us and no one recognizes it -- we wouldn't need to.

calderthesolitary

10/26/2003 12:31:06 PM

Willlong Thank you very much for your comments. I, too, not just believe, but, verily OBSERVE the words that you just said. EXTREMELY IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER HERE: I would never "compare" between Judaism and Paganism as being alike (mostly in respect for HaShem) however The views that you speak of, are exactly the ways of the Pagan "community" where we are all "considered" Pagan but each one (we'll often, in the community call them 'solitaries') has a completely different "path" or "belief" (or whatever politically correct synonym that we can put in that place.) I have great respect for Jesus' teachings. Regardless of whether he was or was not Messiah, he was a rabbi and his morals were worthy of ALL ears to hear.

Willlong

10/24/2003 01:45:19 PM

Simple. There is no 'Systematic Theology' in Judaism. Orthodox, Conservative, Traditional, Reform and even Reconstructionist Jews all see each other as Jews, yet have some VERY different beliefs. Orthodox believe in Heaven and Hell, Reform don't. Reconstructionists tend to see G-d as a concept, as symbol, whereas Conservatives recognize Him as a real entity. So, any broad statement about 'What Jews Believe' is impossible. The best that can be said is that it is what the particular Jew talking believes. Baruch HaShem

manypaths

10/23/2003 11:45:12 AM

Now that you have "beat me over the head" with my misunderstanding of the Jewish viewpoint, could you please explian further. Some Jews feel that we are on the path to a completely unjust world and that will bring on the Messiah, while others fell that we are on the path to a completely just world that will bring on the Messiah? Sorry that I assumed those were the viewpoints of 2 different religions, as they appear to be opposite theologies. I have the utmost respect for the Jewish community. Isreal on the other hand, had better clean up its act. I thought that the word was against religious states. Why is Isreal an exception?

manypaths

10/23/2003 11:39:17 AM

One thing that I have always admired from the jewish community was their sense of humor. I guess that I have misunderstood them all this time...... I am just trying to understand. I do not follow a strict method of praising God. I feel that Jesus was a great teacher and a son of God. I too am a son of God, but by no means does that make me a Messiah. We are all sons and daughters of God, and Jesus was simply the first to point this out in such an eloquent and humble way. I apologize for not knowing the "means of the masses" in relating to God, which I view as a very personal relationship that is nobody elses business. I am still confused on the Jewish viewpoint.

calderthesolitary

10/23/2003 02:36:38 AM

manypaths: I thought that I clearly wrote that the viewpoint was the Jewish viewpoint. Although I respect the teachings of Christianity and try to learn it fact from fact (seeing as I'm not Christian and I can strive greatly for peace when I understand better the topic of which I speak). Most of the time, especially in a little "short forum" such as this one, I'll speak from the point of view of Judaism -- as I said before, I relish the ways of the Torah, I keep myself exhiled from the community in the greatest respect for the G-d of Israel, because as He's a great G-d and the ways of the House of Israel are just and balanced, I am Pagan and do not belong in the community and would not tarnish the community for allowing me in just because I might be liked as a person.

Rigel5740

10/22/2003 09:22:05 PM

manypaths wrote: Is one to assume that current Christian thought on the "coming" is when the world is just, and the current Jewish thought on the "coming" is when the world in completely unjust? If so.....go Christians!!! Calder clearly stated that both were Jewish positions. Either you read the post very carelessly, or you deliberately misrepresented it. As for your suggestion that the Jews suffered under the Nazis because they hadn't accepted Christianity, how do you explain the suffering that numerous Christian martyrs suffered under the Romans? Were they not true Christians? What about Christian missionaries that are kidnapped, terrorized, and/or brutally murdered in Muslim countries? Would these missionaries have been protected if they were better Christians? Why would someone become a Christian missionary if he hadn't accepted Christianity for himself?

manypaths

10/22/2003 03:24:24 PM

Calder... Very nice post. Is one to assume that current Christian thought on the "coming" is when the world is just, and the current Jewish thought on the "coming" is when the world in completely unjust? If so.....go Christians!!! I would hate to be around for the later.

calderthesolitary

10/22/2003 02:31:11 PM

finale... However, if even just the story itself, Jesus died in vain! The world and humanity has NOT been redeemed and peace does not exist in this world. I learned something in my Jewish studies about the coming of Messiah: He will come ONLY on one of two occurrences: one, that the world,entirely, regardless of religious path, is completely just and that he will come to finally walk among the just and good and rule as king; and the other, that the world, entirely, is completely unjust and the very need for Messiah finally DOES exist and that he will come to make the world just so that he CAN walk amongst his people -- regardless of religious observance, although, it being, of course a Jewish belief.

calderthesolitary

10/22/2003 02:29:22 PM

continued... Now, New Testament or no New Testament, anyone should be able to agree that Jesus did, in fact, cause a stir...and as more and more evidence of his humanity (vice his messianic "evidence") is surfacing every day, we're all finding out that he was just as much a person as we are today. ...and whether or not he really WAS crucified, at least by the words of the New Testament in the Bible, he prepared himself to do such a thing. He gave up the greatest gift in the name of humanity (at least by the standards of the New Testament). In a world of turmoil such as it was then and such as it is today, I would find that ANYONE who purely gives his life for the sake of humanity is probably the most noble of noble.

calderthesolitary

10/22/2003 02:15:53 PM

continued... As a student of "Jewish Kabbalah" I found a great love of Judaism, and relish the ways of Torah, but, on my honour and for the honour of the Jewish people, keep myself separate and solitary and "exhiled" from the community -- because of my Pagan ways and knowing that my Pagan ways are reviled by the House of Israel...but relishing the ways of Torah -- the "literal" Torah and not anything else. However, I have nothing but the greatest respect for Jesus and his teachings. Do I believe he was Messiah? Perhaps a facet of what Messiah is supposed to be...I mean, one of the greatest tasks of the life of any Jew is supposed to strive to be more G-dly. Jesus, as a Jew, was no different.

calderthesolitary

10/22/2003 02:07:56 PM

This viewpoint comes from someone who is not Christian and is not Jew. I am [what is called] a "Natural Witch" meaning that I was born into a Pagan family with a Pagan lineage. Know this: I find that most modern-day "neo-Pagans" who convert just to tell the world how bad these religious paths are -- are deplorable and an abomination to the small, but very much alive world of the "true" Pagan. Where am I going with this? Quite simply, "true" Pagans also find Jesus to have been a great man in this world -- God on Earth, perhaps; perhaps not; but all the same, a man of GREAT morality...morals that even natural Pagans (non-converts, born into the world of Paganism) find to be worthwhile to observe.

lamerala

10/22/2003 03:50:14 AM

I find it unfortunate that sarcasm so frequently accompanies a weak argument defended by circular logic. The "chosen ones" (such as Jesus himself) were not chosen for an easy life with easy answers or easy redemption by accepting a man into our hearts, regardless of our past transgressions. How "Jesus-like" is it to blame the Jews for pain and suffering exisiting after Jesus' death? I find it particularly appauling to blame the Jews for their own attempted, systematic extermination! I suppose the lutheran nazis had to ask themselves, "what would Jesus do?" before they slaughtered millions. Like I said, circular and IDIOTIC logic. So, Jesus, who was a Jew, would say "that's what those Jews get for not accepting me as God"??? That sounds more like the proclamation of satan. Anti-semites who use Jesus to justify their ignorance and hatred only add to division and distrust. Manypaths, but apparently on one very misguided path.

manypaths

10/21/2003 03:50:54 PM

No the world was NOT redeemed after Jesus death. There is much pain and suffering in this world. Could that be the result of the "choosen ones" NOT GETING IT? The Messiah came and went, and the Jews failed to acknowledge this. And pain and suffering remains. Most of it, centering around Jews and Isreal. Would the atrocites of Hitler have happened if the Jewish had recognized our Messiah? Would the Middle East be in such a turmoil had the Jews accepted the Jesus as their Messiah? Yes there is much pain and suffering since Jesus left.......but don't blame him.

manypaths

10/21/2003 03:41:03 PM

Are the Jewish people still waiting for their Messiah to ride into Jerusalem on Donkey? What are the chances of that happening........................................................................again?

qtp3

10/16/2003 04:41:01 PM

Facinating piece on the Jewish perspective of Jesus. However, i wished the rabbai would have explained more on why Jesus is not the messiah.

Oisin718

10/01/2003 12:41:24 PM

What about this scenario (for Christians who believe Jesus is the only way to God): What does Jesus represent? He represents the love and mercy and salvation of G_d: that's what he preached, that's what his name means: Yehshua--"the L_rd saves." If G_d is love, mercy, and justice, then we come to Him through love, mercy, and justice, the things Jesus preached. It would seem logical to me that if you believe in love, mercy, and justice and surrened your life over to those, you would be committing your life through them to G_d, and thus would come to G_d. Thus, you would not need to believe in Jesus specifically, but instead to live according to the message he preached, which is really the same as Torah and the prophets. Feel free to condemn me for heresy, but that is what I believe.

mystdujour

09/24/2003 05:45:46 AM

..an interesting and politically correct article. I have always assumed Jews believed Jesus was a lunatic. First Point: Jesus's redemption was a "one size fits all" attonement for sin, not from physical suffering. A world without suffering is a world with no freewill which would be pointless. Second Point: the teachings of Jesus are morally superior to the teachings of Moses or Mohammed. t FORGIVENESS. Jesus said "turn the other cheek". He did NOT lead armies as Mohammed did. Nor did he continue with the "eye for an eye..." belief. Now, using some common sense, (and this is addressed to Christians) when the bible says no one comes to the Father, except thru Jesus and that every head will bow down to Him; isn't it possible that after death a non-Christian would have the opportunity to bow down before Jesus? Remember the greatest commandment He gave us is to love God and to love one another. God loves us all - no matter what we believe about Him or His Son.

buddark

09/14/2003 01:35:39 PM

Dear Rabbi Wolpe and others, God cannot be judged by the behavior of those past or present. God is one and doesn't change. The problem of a triune God is not Father, Son, Holy Spirit = 3 but 1 X 1 X 1 = 1. Three ways God has revealed Himself to us. There are many more titles for God. This was revealed in the Hebrew scriptures, not invented by Christians. Religion is like the story of three blind men who were each given a different part of an elephant to touch. Each had a different perception of the elephant, but not the whole picture.

buddark

09/14/2003 01:34:47 PM

Part 1 continued It is important for all to seek to know God, but understand that none have a complete picture of who God is. This would take an eternity. Some food for thought, read Isaiah 63:7-16. Reading this you will notice it is hard to separate God, Father v16 and v17, Savior v8, Is 63:8 ... So he BECAME their savior... not a messenger or an angel, but he himself who saved them..., and Holy Spirit v 10-11 (his spirit). Before Christ was born in this world, Isaiah 53 foretold the mission of the Son of God. Verse 12 says He, Jesus/Messiah will take away the sins of many...win for us pardon. (v 9-10 ...he had done no wrong...gives his life as an offering for sin (sin offerings had to be perfect) ...will of the Lord... accomplished through him.

buddark

09/14/2003 01:32:23 PM

Part 2 Jesus was the only one people have controversy with, not Mohammed or Buddha or others. If you doubt Jesus as Messiah, who was Isaiah speaking of since there is no more crucifixion? Do you believe the words of this prophet? IS 50:6, IS 50:8. Isaiah 52:5-6 ...name reviled, v6..I have foretold it... Because of religion, not following the teachings of God, a sword came to many, this was not caused by Jesus, but was a prophecy. A prophecy which came true. Isaiah 61:11 ends with ...the Lord will make justice and praise spring up... This is to come. Isaiah 57:1 explains suffering, what seems to us as evil, the Lord takes away the just from the presence of evil, read for context. Is 55:14-15 ... destruction cannot come near you. v15 Should there be any attack, it shall not be of my making. The Lord God does not CAUSE evil, He allowed free will to believe His words or reject them.

buddark

09/14/2003 01:28:42 PM

Part 3 Don't rely on your own understanding. Since the Hebrew teachings do reveal the prescence of the Holy Spirit, long before the book of Acts, seek God's Spirit and ask that God himself teach you. Then move on to the New Testament; (Luke 20:1-8. People even in Jesus lifetime doubted prophets and questioned the authority of Jesus.) Long before you get there, God will reveal himself to you personally. The only thing you need to do is ASK. Moses, Abraham, the prophets all knew God personally, we can too. Isaiah 62:4 ... But you shall be called "My Delight," Revelation 22:10-20 quotes Jesus on prophetic words 'in this book' As far as Hitler goes, 'by their fruits, you shall know them.'

yiuchan

09/10/2003 01:45:56 PM

Your logic is flawed. If you break down a computer to figure out how it works, such as into a hard drive, a monitor, a printer, a power supply, etc., the individual part are just parts, not a computer. Accordingly, if you break down G_d into three "parts", the Father is 1/3 God, Jesus is another 1/3 of God, and the Holy Spirit is another 1/3 of God, each part is just a spare part and not God at all. A better anology would be an All-In-Machine made by Hewitt Packard. It is a printer, a scanner, a photocopier and a fax machine - all lumped together for convenience and efficiency.

CBRabby

09/08/2003 03:29:06 PM

I think the guy does a good job in explaining why Jews don't believe in Jesus the same way Christians do. But I have an answer to the question he posed to the Baptist minister. It is human nature to break things down so we can understand them. To see the intricitate details of how something works. The Trintiy is a concept to break down the supposed revelations of God to man. The Bible says that God is One. It also says that we are made in His image. I am one. Yet I can be broken down into parts to understand how I work. The same with God. Does He not have something along the lines of a brain, a heart, and a nervous system? Could not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, after an examination of their roles, be these "parts" of God? Just a possible explanation.

Norm_uk

08/28/2003 03:23:54 AM

If there are any people who want to take a serious, scriptual look at why Jews as a whole have never accepted Jesus and why in the past year over 200 christians, including ministers have converted to Judaism I suggest starting with: www.jewsforjudaism.com

olpfaw

08/20/2003 03:44:03 AM

im done on the translations bit. i'm sorry to have used the male persona so often and for any other misspellings. i'm not that good at english but i try to get my point across, as disorganized as it is when it comes out! Can anyone guess at my age and religion?

olpfaw

08/20/2003 03:43:29 AM

i mean to say that it might be better to listen to the meaning behind the words while reading the the words. listen to what god was really trying to say, while keeping in mind what man thought he was trying to say. i believe that the verse (Luke 14:26) really means something like "if the things/people mentioned here are your first priorities, and not the one who i represent (or speak for), then you will find it difficult and even impossible to follow my teachings (which reflect the wishes of god)." the word hate is such a strong and incorrectly used word. i say this because the english language is in a "constant state of flux" where it changes daily in submission to the wills of its practitioners - and the word "hate" is one of many victims. i hope to find out what this passage should really state and its true meaning. i also hope that all people, christian and non-christian, find out soon.

olpfaw

08/20/2003 03:42:52 AM

o understatement of the year: translations suck. in any case, no translation is absolutely perfect; and no man can perfectly and completely understand or represent God, himself or anyone around him. this is my belief, anyways. there is a tremendous margin for error in translations of any kind. a sacred text common both the christian and jewish religions - the bible (the torah, to be more specific) - is mentioned in the article. it is a divinely inspirated book, written by human beings. however, when god revealed something to a biblical author, the author wrote it in words that other human beings could understand. these words probably do not convey the true and absolute ideas, feelings, thoughts, and wishes of god. i believe that the bible is god's word - his message, teachings, and personal discourse to mankind. however, through unfortunate and unavoidable human error, it isn't perfect. muslims know about this error, and accordingly, they discourage any translation of the qu'ran.

olpfaw

08/20/2003 03:40:55 AM

o i wish to comment on the quotations from the bible that were used in this article. i would especially like to address the validity of the wording of all the scripture portions. i do not wish to insult the author, but to illustrate a point. in one quotation (Luke 14:26) jesus christ stated: "if anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother...he cannot be My disciple." i believe that the translation was lost.

bmilner

08/13/2003 02:44:27 PM

I must also say that the idea that Jesus was a great moral teacher but not God is not really logical. If, for instance, Ghandi had done all he did in his life but then also said that he was the only Son of God, we would consider him crazy and call into question everything else he did or said. C.S. Lewis makes this argument best in Mere Christianity which I suggest anyone here who is objective should read at least once. It's called the Lord, Liar, Lunitic argument. Jesus was either crazy because of his claims, was an outright evil liar, or was who he said he was. You must choose how you slot Him.

bmilner

08/13/2003 02:39:44 PM

Ok, I dont understand WHY this man states: "One of the most common--and least enlightening--exercises in religious history is the batting back and forth of biblical verses." THEN goes on to use examples from scripture in his arguments? Sounds to me like he just wants to say that it's off the table except for whne it's helpful to his point.

girl_of_grace780

06/02/2003 03:05:34 PM

In Rabbi Wolpe's article, he took excerpts from verses, leaving them incomplete, altering their meanings. For example, when Jesus withered the fig tree, he used it as a metaphor in explaining something to his disciples. And that brings another question to mind, could any mere man simple look at a fig tree and tell it to wither and have it do so? Rabbi Wolpe claim's that Jesus was believed to simply be a great morale teacher, but if that was so, why would they crucify him? Rabbi Wolpe also states that it doesn't seem right that "someone could live a noble life and not be saved, when another could live a depraved and cruel life and through a true conversion of his heart at the end of life still be saved". But that's GRACE. Through God's Grace , one can receive forgivness for all sins. We are creations of free will and God does not force us to love him or to believe. God doesn't hand us redemption on a silver plate, we have to ask for it. It's a gift. All you have to do is accept it.

damiyen1

04/30/2003 04:56:55 PM

I like C.S Lewis' quotation: ...I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him, "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. From C.S. Lewis' , "Mere Christianity" Macmillan Publishing Co, New York, NY. Copyright 1952

sweetgirl7411715

04/14/2003 02:29:12 PM

I think we could avoid alot of hurt and pain among each other if we would focus on our similarities instead of our differences. Jews and Christians both worship and revere God and hopefully lead our lives with that principal. Our different religious beliefs (which is only the route to which we come to know God) and painful history should not sever our divine connection in that God created us all each with a specific purpose in mind to better humanity. I think if God had human emotions our ridiculous bickering would sadden him. I can love and respect the Jewish faith and believe in Jesus the same that Jews can love and respect me as a Christian even though they don’t believe in Jesus. I think that’s what God intended when he created us.

petrushka

04/07/2003 01:25:27 PM

Jesus claimed to be the Son of Man. (For an explanation of the above term see Ezekiel.)He emphatically denied that he was the Son of God. In fact at the Transfiguration there were present along with Jesus, Moses and Elijah. When Christ was suffering on the Cross, The Romans said "See this man. He calls for Elijah." Jesus never rejected the Law of Moses. He stated that he was a Messiah (which in Hebrew means God's anointed). Just like David or Moses. Christianity and Judaism have common roots and stating that one obscures the other is stating a heresy. While writing the above let me state that by belief I am a Hindu. (and so be it. Amen....)

fullerbrian

04/06/2003 03:57:46 AM

It is important to remember that the actions of the people of God do not reflect the validity of a faith. If this is the case, then his argument when applied to Judaism would fall apart in the Torah. Christianity has never been about discrediting Judaism, but rather being a fulfillment of what God promised to Abraham in Genesis 12. That is why Jesus was a Jew and that is why he states his mission is to the Jews first (Mark 7). To point out the numerous horrors and flaws of the history of Christianity, is to state the obvious. Ever since Christ's death people have taken the message of love from Jesus and twisted it. This has lead to horrible, catastrophic, and even unimaginable pain and suffering. Of course it has all been done in the Name of Christ, which is a tragedy. However, let us not forget, for the sake of argument, that the people of God (from the time of Abraham to today) have all had their fair share of immoral time periods.

itrytobeaChristian

03/29/2003 11:43:53 PM

I find Rabbi Wolpe's description of Jesus's statement that no one can go to Father, but through him as contrary to simple compassion and justice intriguing. Rabbi Wolpe's description is true, but only if one sees Jesus's is statement as meaning know one can go to the Father but through belief in Jesus. I tend to interpretate more as saying that, because of the oneness of the Father and Jesus, Jesus participates in each saint's "going to the Father," whatever that saints religious persuasion was in life.

shikse34

03/16/2003 05:08:13 PM

Why do all of these people read an article and then post rabidly anti-Semitic comments? The article is about the Jewish view of Jesus, not the Christian view, obviously, because it is written by a rabbi! You have to understand where people are coming from when you read these columns. You all complain about the Pharisees being intolerant of Jesus, but really, Moon could be a messiah and the Christian bureaucracy would not recognize it (not saying that he is, but just as a thought). Plus, if one looks at halakhah, the Pharisees did not comport themselves as true Jews should; they were largely corrupt and did not go by many mitzvot. These comments are what promote things like Al-Qaeda, which think that all other religions are wrong! Open up your hearts as your Jesus, "Son of G-d" taught you to do!

shore30

02/26/2003 05:25:47 PM

Nowhere does it say Christianity was a religion of Jesus. This was done by Constantine and the Nicene conf of 325AD and the bishops (fathers). READ Rom 2:28-29 and Rom 11 and we will all become one by "ADOPTION". People refuse to accept John 1:1 and 14:9. No priest, rabbi or preacher is going to explain what G-d has said. Theology is what is trying to explain away. By the way I have heard Dr Brad Young teach. EXCELLENT. He worked with Prof Fluesser at the Heb Univ in Jerusalem. Now at ORU.

shore30

02/26/2003 05:19:01 PM

He will say Jesus never fulfilled any prophecies. Of course not in the physical. He did spiritually as demonstrated when he defeated satan in the wilderness and on the temple. The leadership during Jesus' lifetime were corrupt as history reveals and as the leadership tried to get rid of Him. The people was going bywhat they had been taught, just as most Christians do today.

shore30

02/26/2003 05:15:25 PM

Human nature is to explain away anything you do not want to believe. The Rabbi does so because his side was looking for a human born of natural birth to overthrow the Romans and establish a kindgom as the previous kings had tried to do. They all failed because they were descendants of Adam who ate the from of good and evil. Yetser Tov and Yetser Hara. All humans are born with the two inclinations Good and evil. The Rabbi says a Jew can become so righteous he will be in the world to come. His problem is he is looking philosophically because he cannot see the spiritual kingdom of God as yet (Is 29:10). Cont'd

woodahbase

02/11/2003 02:10:31 AM

R. Wolpe probably hasn't studied the gosples in depth, but no one today accepts John as a serious piece of history. Even devout -- but educated -- Christians euphemistically call it the "spiritual" gospel, which was composed around 200 years after the time of Jesus. In the remaining three "synoptic" gospels, Jesus does not claim to be divine. Mark, the oldest gospel, is devoid of most of the supernatural, "messianic" traits later attributed to Jesus. And Matthew 15:21 - 28 reveals Jesus' rather unsettling view of Gentiles. In the end, whether Jesus was the Son of God or not, he did not do what Jewish Scripture predicted the Messiah would do. Therefore, while Jesus might indeed be divine, he was certainly not the Savior the Jews were waiting for.

akrho123

01/22/2003 05:38:38 PM

Christians need to research where the New Testament originated. The only true books that G-D gave to men was the Torah. The early Church added the 27 books of the New Testament to the so called Bible. They added to the word of G-D by adding these books of lies.

moondookie

12/10/2002 04:07:10 PM

If i remember correctly, it was the jews in power at the time of rome that had jesus killed? or shall i say sold him out. is this because they were threatened by his words? it is funny how most jews have customarily defied god, therefore becoming a persecutted faith in the world only second to chritians.

jroy

09/02/2002 01:24:27 PM

It is also very clear in Daniel chapter 9 that the Messiah would be "cut off" before the destruction of the 2nd Temple. (Messiah Yeshua was crucified about AD 33 and the 2nd Temple was destroyed by Titus and Rome in AD 70)

jroy

09/02/2002 01:18:12 PM

If we are going to use Parsha Proverb's 30:4 "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?" Being Sarcastic here "You mean it says G-D has a son?"

jroy

09/02/2002 01:15:15 PM

Jesus did not leave this open. He made it plain and clear to the Pharisees and is why they wanted to stone him because he said he was G-D.

jroy

09/02/2002 01:14:12 PM

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." Look what Jesus said above "Before Abraham was, I am." Any learned Rabbi of Jesus' day would have heard this and instantly (if they knew the scripture) they would have started to recite within their mind the scripture Jesus wanted them to understand which harkens back to Genesis 3:14 Genesis 3:13-14 "And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, {I AM THAT} I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

jroy

09/02/2002 01:12:54 PM

And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your G-d: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

jroy

09/02/2002 01:12:12 PM

1) Jesus argues with the Jews of his time and clearly tells them he is the Messiah and G-D. John 8:43-59 "Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

jroy

09/02/2002 12:53:19 PM

The Rabbi plays loose with the scriptures. Doesn't it say in Romans that blindness in part has happened unto the Jew until the time of the gentile be fullfilled? Why G-D chose to do this we do not know but it is a fact he has done this. The scripture is very clear on who Jesus is and his claims about himself are either true or untrue, but non of this nonsense about being a great man. He did not leave that open for argument. The response from Richard Mouw would make some think we all have to be Greek and Hebrew scholars to know the truth and he doesn't clearly define one opposing argument to David's 8 reasons for rejection of Yeshua as the Messiah.

SONOFMAN2000

08/17/2002 09:54:34 PM

PS: Rabbi if you really want to know why the Jews don't accept Jesus, read in the Torah what Hashem told Moses when he was leading Israel in the 40 years in the wilderness desert, G-d called the Jews "stiff necked people", I guess Jesus confirmed it when He was rejected by the Jewish nation.

SONOFMAN2000

08/17/2002 09:40:15 PM

To conclude, Rabbi Wolpe thinks Islam is closey realated to Judaism? He better wake up and smell the coffee burning, islam wants nothing better than to drive all the Jews from Israel into the Red Sea! We Christians support the Jewish people and Israel state, we Christians are not the enemy, it is Islam and Moslems, furthermore, it is not the Christians who is preventing the Jews from rebuilding their Holy Temple in Jearusalem and walling up the Golden gate, it is Ishmael, Ham and their decendants.

SONOFMAN2000

08/17/2002 09:20:31 PM

continue from previos post, what about those who live a "good life" and never convert to Jesus and those who livea bad life and convert in the last moment of their life? First of all, if good works earn salvation, then, Adam who ONLY committed one sin, would had been restored to paradise and perfection, but we all knowhe died. Second, there would not had been a need for sacrafice in the Temple for atonement, and mind you Rabbi, that sacrafice is the law of Moses and the fact that you have no temple and sacrafice means, that judaism in itself changed the law of Moses. To maKE MY POINT PLAINLY, when one choose to separate themselves from G-d and His commandments, there can't never be any good, if ythe rabbi thinks one can do good and expect G-d to reward him, remember, G-d is NOT indebted to anyone, because all fall short in the Glory of G-d.

SONOFMAN2000

08/17/2002 09:10:52 PM

And what about the question of the wither tree? Jesus' parables was stating that if you don't bear good fruit, you're useless, in ancient time in farming and pretty much today, if a tree is not bearing fruit it is cut off and burned in the fire. The same with us humans, if we don't bear good fruits in this life, we have no part in the world to come. Most rabbi would agreed. And what about going to hell? Isn't sodom and gomorrah an example of G-d's divine judgement? And what about the universal flood? These teaching teaching were first in the Tanakl and the Torah, if rabbi Wolpe have an issue with Divine judgement, take it to G-d.

SONOFMAN2000

08/17/2002 09:04:18 PM

To continue from previous post, what does a whole Jewish nation rejection of Jesus have to do with truth? Isn't the whole world, save for Christians and the USA, calling Jewish nation and Israel evil? Since when does majority rule in determining what is truth? Isn't G-d the one who can say what is truth? What about the fact that only Jews can determine who is Jew? Isn't those of Messianic Judaism Jews? Rabbi Wolpe doesn't see that we christians gave up the way of our ancestors who were pagan, I mean, I don't kow anything about paganism, but ask about the history of Israel and theology and I'll write a book. I guess what Rabbi Wolpe is saying is that we Gentile have no part in G-d's family or in Israel history because we are not Jews. Our spirituality is not worth even considering because we are cut off from G-d. continue on next post

SONOFMAN2000

08/17/2002 08:54:06 PM

Rabbi Wolpe ask some question concerning verses he taken out of context, he quotes Jesus words concernng abbout His first coming that He came not to bbrinbg peace bbut a sword and whoever doesn't hate his family cannot be His disciple, he doesn't understand Jesus was referring to the fact that the many Jews who would accept Him would be disown by their family, the classical example is today, if a Jew accepts Jesus as their Messiah, their parents and family will disown Him, A Jew would not be rejected by family if he becomes an Atheist or even practise voo doo! What about the fact that the whole nation Jews who supposely knew Him best rejected Jesus? The answer to that is, the same whole nation of Israel who reject G-d during the reign of King Ahab and Queen Jezabel to worship baal save for Elijah and 7,000 faithful who didn't bend the knee to baal. The same whole nation who after witnessing G-d's miracle in Egypt made a golden calf.

Pinocchio

07/26/2002 03:44:07 PM

I think Rabbi Wolpe did an excellent job in his article. I'm not sure why it angers people so much to accept that the bible has errors. We are a people of errors and we are constantly growing in the light and wisdom of God. To rely on something written 2000 ago soley is like putting a muzzle on the mouth of God.

jdvlong

07/22/2002 02:35:43 PM

We must believe with the faith of a child. Jesus died for our sins. God knows that we are imperfect, unable to live without sinning. Salvation is through our belief that Jesus is our Savior. That doesn't mean we can go out and sin and because we believe it doesn't count. We will be tempted and He knows sometimes we will give in. If we have pain maybe it's to show us how much we need Him. It's easy to believe without adversity. God also wants us to turn to Him in times of need. That is when we must have the most faith. We are not to love the things of this world, but look forward to the days when Jesus returns and all earthly things fall away. Each of us is given our own set of challenges. We will survive if our faith is strong. In the meantime, we should be witnesses for Jesus, showing others the way to salvation through faith. Faith is not questioned. People get hung up too much on labels - Jew, Christian, Muslim. It's not about rituals and laws. It's about faith. Simple faith.

nosson

06/21/2002 02:49:55 AM

PART TWO Now about Jesus. You seem to gloss over the fact that the Talmud and maimonodies too actually have a very very negative view about Jesus that he was a rebellious heretic. Now do not take this as a contradiction to what you properly state as to Jesus's profoundness as a teacher. Sometimes something can be just slightly off and yet it's effects can be devastating. This is the case with Jesus that he rebelliously paved the way for an off an untrue version of Judaism, which while in one light may seem just slightly different, it's overall effects are enormous distortions. Now while for the pagan world it well may be considered an improvement, it is still properly vilified in contrast to Judaic values. Thus Jesus is both a profound teacher and a rebellious heretic, and it takes a talmudic scholar like myself to explain that.

nosson

06/21/2002 02:49:10 AM

Because of size I must part my comments in two. The article by Rabbi wolpe is very very good. I would like here to make a few points. That priest really should have answered you that the three of the trinity are not perfect, then it would be similar to the ten sephirot of God according to Kabbalah which represent God in accordance to our limitations but do not represent God himself.

southpawhoney

06/17/2002 02:52:20 PM

This article is fair. I am a devout Christian who understands that Jewish people are God's chosen people. Whether they believe in the Messiah is not for me to judge. I believe in Jehova as much as I believe in Jesus. We also need to remember Jesus said that we should not worship him, but worship the Father. I love Jesus because he is the Son of God, sent by God The Almighty to save us. I am a living testimony of the power of Jesus and the grace of God.

LisaFulco

05/29/2002 10:13:45 AM

Why is it always a Rabbi who makes this comparison. I would like to see a Priest explain the difference. This essay is clearly bias.

astro5

05/29/2002 08:49:34 AM

If you were to spend your life believing and depending on something to be true, only to find out later you were completely wrong-that to me is Christianity. But maybe god will understand.

astro5

05/29/2002 08:42:47 AM

<-good article. Todays modern Christian is free of ceremony and actions and time in devotion. I see that Christianity bares no true conviction in ritual. If people were made to follow both Judaism, and Christianity to a tee there would be a large drop out rate. I admired my jewish friends for their devotion and ritual, as with my Amish friends. Christians are the jellyfish of all religions...it is unfortunate. I myself am an observer, I am not religious-it is not for me at all. I love science too much, there is too much to learn about evolution, and space for religion to hold me back.

xholdencaulfieldx

05/27/2002 11:59:07 PM

*stop quoting from the gospel....

xholdencaulfieldx

05/27/2002 11:58:09 PM

christians really need to start speaking for themselves and quoting the gospel of john as if people will suddenly slap their forheads and say "ohhh jesus loves me, i better start worshipping him. not attacking christianity, just expressing my frustration with people who take things at face value and expect everyone else to.

rifftheref

05/26/2002 03:36:01 PM

Jesus is Lord! John 3:16-18says it all.For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. "For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Amen

Eliava

05/26/2002 12:12:33 PM

And the reason the Jews wandered 40 yrs in the desert and that generation died off before coming to the promised land was because they had been born into slavery with all the psychological, emotional, etc. baggage that comes with that. A new, free generation raised in the faith and laws handed down to Moses was necessary to possess the land. G-d does not break his promises regardless of how we humans may behave.

Eliava

05/26/2002 12:12:21 PM

Jesus was not the first Jew to proclaim himself the messiah nor was he the last. He was not the only one "peforming miracles" mentioned in the Bible. Would there be such a discussion going on if a group were called Jews for Allah or Jews for Buddha, etc.... I think not. Muslims would recognize them as Muslims, Buddhists would recognize them as Buddhists and Jews would recognize them as no longer being Jewish. Jews for Jesus, or Messianic Jews are CHRISTIANS. The Jewish religious community does not recognize them as Jews. Can you please get pass trying to redeem the world by converting the Jews? We're not trying to redeem it by converting you.

srowitt

05/24/2002 02:33:49 PM

The first believers were exclusively Jewish. The Newer Testament was written by Jewish men (even Luke was probably a prosylyte to the Judaism of that day) about whom they perceived to be the Jewish Messiah. Today some Jewish people still believe He is the Messiah, the Holy One of Israel as well as the Light to the Gentiles. That is exactly what He was prophesied to be. There has always been a remnant of Jewish believers in Messiah Jesus down through the centuries. More than ever, Jewish hearts are turning to Him for their atonement and completion of their Jewish identity.

IliveforGodAndChrist

05/22/2002 01:35:58 AM

Here goes the first answer to the first question to the person who wrote this essay. First, Jesus did miracles in the name of the Father so the scribes and the pharisees would believe in him that he was the Messiah but since they were so religious they didn't want to believe him for being ignorant. And the Bible in the book os John it says also that many jews wanted to believe in him but they were coward because they were afraid of being expulsed out of the synagous. The second answer is that we suffer because of our own sin but John 3;16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY begotten son (Jesus) fo WHOSOEVER BELIEVE in him should not perish, but have eternal life. In the book of Genesis it says that God destroyed the first world because men were so evil and men has always been evil that's why there is suffering, pain, and tragedy, and also because of Satan. That's why he sent Jesus his only begoteen son so you can reach salvation and have eternal life.

ambierle

05/22/2002 12:11:43 AM

We are all sinners to God. Man is and never will be perfect. We can try all we want to to good. But all the good deeds will not make up for our sin. He doens't rank sin. Unless we believe in his son we will not be forgivin. Man will have to be punished for the sins we have committed. God is perfect. He wants us to be too. He know that we can't. Jews should understand this concept. The scrifice of a lamb in the old testament was a cleansing ritual of their sins. Jesus is the lamb of God. He died for all of the worlds sins. In his blood we have life. You just have to believe that it is true!

phylisbeing

04/21/2002 11:56:20 PM

I don't think Jesus ever would have advocated the dismissal of the Judeo part of Christian. Why can't belief in the messiah be a part of Judiasm? Maybe god changed his mind? Maybe Isreal wasn't spreading the word fast enough, so God decided to send Jesus to make it easier for everyone? but I think that was has allowed Christianity to become so evil was its dismissal of its judaic roots.

majical1

04/18/2002 12:51:52 PM

There is a lot to say from any religious or faith perspective regarding Jesus or any great topic of discussion. First, I just wish to say that God worked through Jesus for His purposes at that time as He works at any time. God is not a God of confusion but everything works in coordination with His master plan(s). Now lets understand the World from our present day perspective and move forward yes observing all faiths and doctrines but from the perspective of what God is doing today and not limiting ourselves or confusing ourselves by all the thoughts and beliefs of times gone by, yet respect what God has done in the past for what it is but OPEN yourself to what God is doing NOW. Remember God works masterpieces not a lot of confusion. more later...

hjoseph7

03/15/2002 11:42:45 AM

Why did many people choose Barabas the criminal instead of Jesus. Some say because Barabas was a rebel who fought against the Romans. This might be true but there is a pervasive tendency in man not just the Jews, to feel more comfortable with someone who is at, or below their level. Some cultures are practically based on this philosophy. So you can see how important such an attitudes is to some. Many claimed that Jesus was moraly superior to the religious community of his day, a claim which was backed up by all his miracles. This did not sit well with these men, so they proceeded to humiliate him. How many times have we seen this attitude surface in our day to day activities.

hjoseph7

03/13/2002 01:18:25 PM

Now to continue. If somebody today, asked me to "go kick the bosses son I'll give you 50 bucks !". I would flatly decline the offer, for fear of losing my job. Even if I didnt like the Bosses son, common sense would tell me to avoid a confrontation with the Boss and his associates. So even though I empathize with the Jews for not accepting Jesus's views, and I must admit that widespread suffering continues unabated, my upbringing and experience which includes the fear of God, prevents me from fully accepting their views.

hjoseph7

03/13/2002 12:59:39 PM

I simpathize with the Jews for not accepting Jesus, since there is no world redemption and suffering continues unabated. Rabbi Wolpe also mentions something that has baffled many, including myself which is, why do people who accept Jesus suffer just as much if not more than those that dont. The answer to that would be too long and complicated but I must mention that "The Adversary" is constantly hard at work to shake the faith of those who accept Jesus's views. Now, if I was living in Jerusalem 2000 years ago and I saw a man who went around doing good, healing and curing, walking on water, feeding multitudes, predicting the future, controling the weather, I would accept him right there and then as the Son of God no questions asked. As a matter of fact, Jesus was very popular only a few people at the top who feared his popularity had him executed.

RavMonsourZaidan

02/08/2002 10:24:06 PM

Rabbi Wolpe: Shalom. Rabbi Monsour

RavMonsourZaidan

02/08/2002 10:18:27 PM

Part V: ======== We look through a dark glass now, but will see more clearly when the Lord of Hosts returns with His Heavenly Host to quickly gather up His children. Redemption has always been available to the Jew and the Gentile through out Biblical History. All a Man had to do is draw nigh unto God and He would draw nigh unto you. That is a Biblical fact. People have always sufferred. The whys and why nots are Biblically based. Then there is always the question about why do bad things happen to good people. We live in a sin sick world, always have. But no matter what happens, doesn't diminish my faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, because I know that He is working out His purpose in this world and He will settle all accounts on that day. My prayer is that you will be able to stand when He returns.

RavMonsourZaidan

02/08/2002 10:07:58 PM

Part IV: ======== Through the years, as the number of Gentiles belivers increased, they began to predominate in this Messianic faith. With the passing of the Jewish Apostles, and the early Messianic Jews, the Jewish roots of the faith were eventually lost. This " De-Judaizing " process continued in one of the greatest paradoxes in history, it became alien for a Jewish person to believe in Yeshua as his Messiah! Was Yeshua the Messiah? Out of God's own mouth, prophecy and historical evidence just seems to continue to lead to him. Isaiah 53:1-6 is the first indication that an everlasting atonement for mans sins would be made, and it would be made by a man, the Annointed One of Salvation. Isaiah 9:6-7; Micah; Daniel 9:24-26; Isaiah 49:6-7; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Deuteronomy 18:15-19 ( Moses Spoke About Him ) Zechariah 9:9 Daniel 7:13-14.

RavMonsourZaidan

02/08/2002 09:53:51 PM

Part III: ========= From the book of Acts and other historical evidence, many believe that in the first century there were literally hundreds of thousands of Messianic Jews. In addition, there were Messianic synogogues scattered throut the Roman Empire and beyond. These fisrt century Messianic Jews remained highly loyal to their land and their people. Whether it was Jewish to believe in Yeshua was never an issue. Of course it was Jewish! What else could it be? The big question back then was whether Yeshua had been sent for the Gentiles also. When God miraculously showed the Messianic Jews that he was the Messiah for both Jew and Gentile alike, then Gentiles from every nation began to pour into this Jewish faith.

RavMonsourZaidan

02/08/2002 09:46:11 PM

Part II: ======== The false doctrine that Jews as a nation rejected their Messiah is a falsehood. The early church was Jewish. The question is is it Jewish to believe in Yeshua? To some, the concept of a Jew believing in Yeshua seems to be a contradiction. The reason is, many people have a dichotomy set up in their minds. On one hand, you have Jews and Judaism and on the other hand, Christians and Christianity. You are either one or the other, so the thinking goes. But this simple dichotomy is in reality not so simple. If we go back 2000 years we find that Yeshua was a Jew living in a Jewish land among Jewish people. All the Apostles were Jewish as well as the writers of the New Covenant and for many years this faith in Yeshua was strictly a Jewish one.

RavMonsourZaidan

02/08/2002 09:23:31 PM

We all know why Jews reject Jesus and/or Yeshua, The biggest reason is that they have been taught not to believe in Him. Philosophically speaking, there is no philosophy, just an opinion. What really lies behind the dichotomy of Jewish thought is that Jews have sufferred inhumanely without pity or compassion throughout history. Unfortunately, it was done under the Christian banner of the apostate church which is the seat of Satan. Then again God addressed the issues of why the Israelites were delivered over into captivity. Some of the problems we sufferred were a direct result of our own actions. So do all Christian churches act the same way? There is the apostate church and there is some apostasy in every church just as there is in Judaism. Moses talked about the " Annointed One of Salvation.

bunsinspace

02/08/2002 05:56:00 AM

R. Wolpe, Yashar Koach!

Dapudgiebear

12/31/2001 10:08:41 PM

Hello again. No. I do not wish to belong to any organized religious belief. I believe in God and He provides the places where I worship, they vary and there is no collection plate. Nor must I have any body parts removed. God did not gaurrantee Isreal to the jews. In Exodus he made them walk 40 yrs in the desert till they all had died but one, Moses and even he wasn't allowed into that land that WAS promised. God took back His promise due to their broken one. Please take your noses out of your books and look around you. See the world. Make it a better place for children and everyone! Don't kill or attack people nor make any religion out to be exclusive to Our God only! Thanks bye from Da bear

proudjew

12/14/2001 04:38:46 PM

You dont have to be born into Judaism to be a Jew. If your going to convert, I would recommend a year of studying the customs and such(taking classes and reading books).A man must be circumsized(if already, blood must be drawn from the circumsized area) and for men and women, they both must take a mikveh(a ritual cleasing bath)this is just to be considered a Jew. For any other qualifications, you need to talk to a rabbi about his desires or what you should do, according to his beliefs. Some of the more orthodox will want you to keep a certain commandment, the more reform are more like keeping/attending Sabbath services. Judaism is no way a born into religon.

Dapudgiebear

12/07/2001 06:02:24 PM

One more thing, that I wasn't able to add here before, 1025 characters and all. What does it take to be a JEW? Do you have to be born to it? Isn't what is required in the TORAH? Which was written from MISHNA (Memory?) Are JEWS in a special and EXCLUSIVE CLUB that only those born to it can belong? Yeah? In your opinion. Well reread the Torah then. It says it there. I call it the first five books of the bible, the Pentatauch. It is the same words. Reread Jewish history, hasn't God always required that CHILDREN be protected? Did he care whether they were JEWS? When they were sacrificed to their parents gods, did HE care? Do something for children and to change the world. Get back that connection to God and quit trying to be part of an exclusive group. He made us all, all of us, everywhere!

Dapudgiebear

12/04/2001 11:52:47 PM

I'm supposed to count this, not more than 1024 characters...OK!***Can God do what He wants? Can God have Sons & Daughters, if He wants to? We all know the answer to that one. Who cares who was what? Why worry about people who accept Jesus and call themselves Jews. Aren't there female Rabbi's that the Orthodox Jew won't accept? Too many fiercely angry Jews against Christians, similar to the Christians angry with Jews. Worry about children being exploited and used in this world. Worry about the hungry. Do something to make the world a better place. Don't second guess God! PEACE!

howiedds

08/20/2001 10:57:59 PM

Ultima: It was hard to figure out what you were saying about 1/2 way down your post,but what you think that Jews believe about hell and blasphemy is uninformed. This is an uncomfortable format to let you know about Jewish beliefs so look for me on Learn about Judaism or Judaism Challenge and Critique where we can discuss it.

LissaJ

08/17/2001 11:04:44 AM

My personal belief is that He has a real, flesh and blood body that is glorified. He had children, and Jesus was the first-born. He is a separate personage, also with a real, flesh and blood body. He was the final sacrifice (lamb) for sins. I can't seem to find the scripture right now, but it says somewhere that He will come in like a lamb the first time and be the sacrifice, and He will come again, like a lion, in might and power...

LissaJ

08/17/2001 10:41:49 AM

I have a question for the Jews. Do you believe that G-d has a real physical body or that he is a spirit, as is so often believed by most Christian churches today?

UltimaSeraph

08/12/2001 11:15:58 PM

I believe that Jesus is the messiah and savior of all man kind. I do not, however believe that if you do not accept Jesus, that you will go to hell. Put it this way. I am a christian. I will do whatever I can, as my obligation to being a christian, not to disobey or blasphemy my religion. Now think of it as being Jewish. Thinking of the messiah as Jesus would be a blasphemy to thier religious beliefs, so as I am, they too are obligated not to blasphemy thier religion, so they are at a fault.To go to hell for a belief in ones religion as they were taught would be a severe injustice to the innocent people. Pointless bickering over this, however, is the cause of wars and millions of deaths.

howiedds

08/12/2001 10:29:51 PM

truthseeking: You have a point. As Jews we are more comfortable with Jews who are atheist than messianics. Maybe because at least they're neutral and you guys joined the other "club." Perhaps because it's the history that Jews and Christians have shared of oy,oy,oy that messianics are seen as traitors. There's no question that messianics are Christians and Christians have been the "other" for so long. It doesn't make much rational sense, but it is the reality that once you say Jesus is the messiah, we pull your membership card. It doesn't matter much. Your children or your children's children will enter the mainstream of Christianity anyway, with hardly a backward glance to the oddity in their family tree that was born Jewish.

truthseekingliberal

08/11/2001 04:27:20 AM

I don't think its fair that just because someone chooses to accept Jesus, that their whole way of life is stripped from them just because it doesn't fit with your or others like you description of a good Jew. After all, Judaism isn't only a religion its a culture and a people, unlike many other religions. It would be like saying, now that you're a Christian your no longer an American, or now that your a Hindu, you're no longer French. Jews that choose to accept something other that the norm, aren't throwing away years and generations of history and culture, but rather are opening themselves to change and enlightenment. Peace to all.

tweeta

07/05/2001 10:09:12 PM

I was raised a Catholic. I converted to Judaism. I left the Man and went searching for a G_D. Blessed be the Great One, He/She!

howiedds

06/28/2001 11:21:27 PM

Matrix,could you elaborate?

matrix_38018

06/28/2001 10:38:23 AM

Moral and Etical Pluralism is what seperated the early church with judiaism.

howiedds

06/20/2001 09:11:06 PM

that should have been "title."

howiedds

06/20/2001 09:10:34 PM

Julrich: Whoa, Jim. What a tile!.Do I need another graduate degree as a prerequisite.

julrich

06/18/2001 11:22:29 PM

Howiedds I laughed out loud at your last post. good suggestion about a discussion board. I'm going to start one now called "varieties of inscrutable experience." peace jim

howiedds

06/17/2001 12:35:24 AM

Julrich cont: In reference to your statement of trivialization by Jews, I know my fellow Jews get nervous when I talk to them like this. They think I've been doing what I do on Sun mornings too long and that I'm "turning." Too ease their minds, I join them on occasion in planning the overthrow of Western Christian civilization.

howiedds

06/17/2001 12:30:47 AM

Julrich cont: I have no problem seeing Jesus in the long prophetic tradition in which the prophets (which in Hebrew means "speak for," not the Greek "fore speak") chastise for empty ritual for ritual's sake. I once heard an Orthodox Rabbi say at a national conference of Christians and Jews that he had no problem seeing Jesus as the Christian messiah. I immediately knew that I was coming to the same conclusion, and that Jesus was an instrument of spreading the message of redemption and salvation to a world that would never be Jewish.

howiedds

06/17/2001 12:22:38 AM

Julrich cont: I hate this format. Let's start a discussion board. I agree that although Jews are taught to think of God as inexplicable in human terms, we can only keep that up so long and then must revert to anthropomorphisms. In a way, that also helps me understand the first Christians trying to explain their experience in Jesus.I agree that we need to look for the commonality; there's so much of it. I also agree that many of my Jewish friends trivialize the Jesus phenomenon. Maybe it's a defensive stance or one based on ignorance of what he said and how Jewish he was. For some of them it's a real surprise. You may have even noticed some of my sarcastic and aggressive postings in response to some evangelical Christians, which, by the way, I'm now embarassed that you might have read.

howiedds

06/17/2001 12:06:56 AM

julrich: Thanks for directing me to Ruven. An interesting take on the Sh'ma. I agree that the hasidim reacted a lot like the witnesses to Jesus. Their Rebbe was a charismatic, loving, inspiring leader whom they could not believe was gone even though he was 93. Surely he would come back, be resurrected, is with us now. It's that kind of example that allows me to understand and "respect" the "faith experience of those hellenistic Jews."

julrich

06/13/2001 06:18:01 AM

Howiedds, As usual I am deeply appreciative of your insights. Your respect for the faith experience of those hellenistic jews who wrote the gospels is a valuable contribution to the mutual understanding of our religions. I would call your attention to a genteleman named Ruven's post on this thread back one panel about the two opposing concepts of God in the Shema.

julrich

06/13/2001 06:16:50 AM

Howiedds, (cont'd) One is abstract and the other more human. He said that some orthodox groups revere their leaders in a way similar to the Christian adulation of jesus. I think a lot of jews would have trouble seeing g-d in any human because it isn't consistent with the abstract notion of g-d's ineffable nature. Yet our two religions also seem to share this other tendency to look for the presence of G-d in the best examples of our humanity. Would it be possible for jews and christians generally to learn to respect this common element of faith together? I have no problem with jews continuing to reject jesus as messiah or god forever. What wearies me is the need some seem to have to trivialize the jesus experience. Thanks jim

howiedds

06/06/2001 09:47:08 PM

cont: Now, if you had said, "I believe and have faith in the experience of those first witnesses. I believe that they were motivated to start this movement because they saw God in him, and I believe in that experience," then we have no quarrel. But don't offer your testament as proof that he fulfilled prohesy in mine, when mine was available to be copied when they wrote yours.

howiedds

06/06/2001 09:42:04 PM

cont: Proof would be the world having changed for his coming. You know, lions and lambs, no disease or famine, a perfect world. Instead we get millions dead at the hands of people screaming that he was the messiah. Oh, I forgot. The perfect world will happen when he comes again. No thanks. One time was enough for the rest of us.

howiedds

06/06/2001 09:38:32 PM

Do you see the circular reasoning? They know he's the messiah;they write a quasi biography that includes statements about the messiah from Jewish Testament so you would understand what they meant; then you point to those similarities as proof that he fulfilled the prophecies.

howiedds

06/06/2001 09:35:32 PM

cont: It was important to them, the witnesses, that you the non-witness, make the connection between Jesus and the Messiah because that is what they believed they had experienced in him. Riding in on two donkeys(oh, that one is a beaut),his words on the cross, his Bethlehem birth, his being dead for three days(even though it was 36 hours) all were taken from Jewish sacred history so you would understand whom they thought he was.

howiedds

06/06/2001 09:31:20 PM

cont: The schools that wrote the gospels had the Jewish testament in front of them with the ink long dry. In trying to communicate to you what they experienced in Jesus, they used Jewish Testament to describe what jesus said and the events of his life.

howiedds

06/06/2001 09:29:11 PM

cont: Instead you picked ones that have to be interpreted to make the connections. But you're missing the point.

howiedds

06/06/2001 09:27:30 PM

JonJivan: I didn't read all of them,but you could have picked better ones. There are some where the exact words of Jewish Testament are in Jesus' mouth and the events of his life are word for word from Jewwish sacred history.

JonJivan

06/01/2001 01:05:34 AM

Here's just a few of the prophecies you may like to see. Messiah was to be Crucified. -Prophecy: Psalm 22:14, 16, 17. -Fulfillment: Matthew 27:31, Mark 15:20, 25. Messiah was to die as a sacrifice for sin. -Prophecy: Isaiah 53:5, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12. -Fulfillment: John 1:29; 11:49-52, Acts 10:43; 13:38, 39. Messiah was to be rejected by his own people. -Prophecy: Isaiah 53:1, 3. Psalm 118:22. -Fulfillment: Matthew 26:3, 4. John 12:37-43. Acts 4:1-12 Messiah was to be raised from the dead. -Prophecy: Psalm 16:10 -Fulfillment: Acts 2:22-32. Matthew 28:1-10. I've got much more than that, but I'm ready for bed, heh.

DinaFelice

04/30/2001 06:16:54 PM

Thanks howiedds, I try. Punchey, I really WOULD like to see the prophecies. Any time you're ready.

howiedds

04/29/2001 10:55:11 PM

Punchy: Where are you? It's been three days since DinaFelice asked to see the prophecies. I'm kind of anxious to see them myself. 3 days is usually enough for a resurrection. DinaFelice: I feel bad that you're carrying this all alone, but you're doing so well.

DinaFelice

04/26/2001 04:59:36 PM

Punchey: If you really believe that there is PLENTY of reason to believe that Jesus WAS the fulfillment of the prophecies despite the countless refutations that have taken place in the past 2000 years, I ask you to prove it. Please, one at a time (the 1024 character limit) list the prophicies and allow me to respond to each one. (I will make a point of checking this post at least once a day). (Just to make it clearer, I mean that I would prefer it if you list the first claim, let me respond, list the second, let me respond, list the third, let me respond.....I feel that this will be the most effective and least confusing method given the 1024 character limit.)

Punchey

04/25/2001 11:39:23 AM

The interpretation and identification of messianic prophecies is a very complex and very debatable matter. However, it is difficult to disregard the fact that, with uncanny accuracy, many such prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus' life, death, and resurection. Unfourtunately, I am not allowed nearly enough space here to go into them (1024 character limit). But I submit to you that there is PLENTY of reason to believe that Jesus WAS the fulfillment of the prophecies. And apparently many of Jesus' contemporaries felt the same way and were so confident as to have been willing to give their lives for that fact as many of them did. So, no, Jesus and His message was not at all opposed to the Torah. And neither is Christianity. And, although this is a point subject to varying views, the fact is that from a Christian perspective, you don't "stop" being a Jew and "start" being a Christian. Instead, you remain a Jew and come into a full recognition of God's Plan.

DinaFelice

04/24/2001 06:53:44 PM

Punchey: According to the Torah, after the Messiah comes we will all, immediately, be in the "World to Come" which, although it is here on this Earth, is completely different in that wars will cease and peace will reign. In addition, it will be as impossible for anyone to deny the messiah as it is to deny that the sky is blue. The messiah will not be the son of G-d, he will not die and be resurrected, he will live a long life and have many children, he will rebuild the Temple, he will restore Israel to its former glory. Therefore, according to the Torah, Jesus was not the messiah and, to accept him as such, is very much rejecting the Torah for a different belief system. Rejecting the Torah for a different belief system does not mean that Jews cease being Jews in that they still have all the responsiblities that Jews have, however, it DOES mean that they have rejected Judaism and have become Christians.

Punchey

04/24/2001 06:37:29 PM

I take DEEP offense (not to mention strong intellectual skepticism) at the implication of saying the Nazi's parents were Christians. So? There's a reason they weren't Christians themselves. That reason is that true Christians would not tolerate such a thing! Such an argument is ridiculous! The problem with the argument that perfection needs no redundancy and the supposed debunking effect that has on the concept of the Trinity is that the Three are One. So, in a very real sense, there is no redundancy. And the assertion that Jews suddenly cease to be Jews because they acknowledge that the Messiah has come is equally ridiculous. If in fact the Messiah HAS come, then those who do not acknowledge Him themselves cease to be true Jews. Not the other way around. So, while you might disagree that the Messiah has come, do not insult your fellow Jews’ dignity by denying them their identity.

DinaFelice

04/10/2001 11:40:42 AM

gracenwilk: Please read ALL my previous posts. I am not simply trying to use prooftexts to prove a point, I am trying to explain the Jewish viewpoint. That being said, there is NO context that I am aware of where Jesus could say either "G-d, why hast thou forsaken me?" or "The father is greater than I" and still be G-d. By all means, if you have any type of explanation for these seemingly incongruous statements, share them. I confess that I can't imagine what would explain them, but I am willing to admit that my imagination is faulty.

howiedds

04/08/2001 08:13:19 PM

julrich cont: re; son of man. Or, it could have been a title that the audience heard as a divine messenger or savior. One thing is certain. As with any idiomatic expression, none of us can know exactly how it was received by that 1st century audience any more than they would understand a translation of our "catch-22" or "raining cats and dogs."

howiedds

04/08/2001 08:08:09 PM

julrich: Re: Son of Man. The son of man in Daniel sat at the right hand of God at judgement day and would come on the clouds of heaven at the end of time. As a 1st century idiom,it might have simply been an Aramaic expression for a human being. It is also thought that it could have been a way of saying "myself" or "I" the way we presently say "one says." For example, the way we sometimes prefer a less direct approach in our speech when we say, "one could say that..." or "one could believe that..." or "it is said that..." rather than just saying "I say that..." or "I believe that..." Both the above usages, a human being and "One says... " were popular Aramaic constructions.

snailella

04/06/2001 12:14:52 AM

You pointed out in Luke, Chapter 14 how difficult it would be for people to give up family, marriage and personal ties: take up thier cross and follow him. Lives devoted soley to God are very humble indeed. Just ask the monks or the nuns or the priests or some rabbis. I also agree that Jesus was a man, a human being who felt, cried, hungered, suffered and smiled the same as any; except that he was a Jew who was born of a virgin to redeem the sinners of the world. If you were to substitute the word "faith" for Jesus in gospel scriptures the message of God's gift to humankind may be made more clear. The Ten Commandments of Moses must remain in our present day teaching and all we learn from the Old Texts help us become more spiritual today; but I am thankful that the Ultimate Sacrifice has made animal sacrifice obsolete. I too await the coming of the Messiah, the second coming that is. You may say my religion is Christian because of this message. I call myself only a child of God.

gracenwilk

04/05/2001 02:33:18 PM

Though I respect Rabbi Wolpe's rationale insofar as 80% of it is concerned, and do agree with him about the arrogance of certain Christians, I am disturbed by his willingness to use the same logic he condemns in others. I wouldn't dream of interpreting Torah without referring to Jewish sources and respecting the interpretation they give. He apparently doesn't feel the same obligation when interpreting New Testament sources. My confidence in his integrity and academic competence is undermined when I see him pull Scripture out of context (as does DinaFelice in the previous post) in order to score points on a superficial reading of certain texts. In my book, that tactic is no more acceptable from a Rabbi than from one of my fundamentalist Christian bretren.

DinaFelice

04/02/2001 01:11:41 AM

Augustine_the_Canadian, If Jesus was G-d why did he say things like, "G-d, why has thou forsaken me" and "The father is greater than I"? We also feel that there is no need for G-d to be 'incarnate' because He is, in fact, here all the time and in all things. Among Jews there is both an engagement contract and a marriage contract. The idea that G-d would 'be born' to a woman who was engaged is abhorrent...it would be the breaking a contract that is required by the Torah. It would be a sin. But G-d cannot sin. So how can this be?

julrich

03/28/2001 06:44:01 PM

Augustine, Your posts provide a sampler of the titles ascribed to Jesus: the Lord, the Savior, the True Light, the Son of the Living God, one with God, "swell guy," a great Prophet, God Incarnate, uncreated Word. To this I think should be added the most common title in the synoptic Gospels, the son of man. (maybe someone with Hebrew scholarship out there could clear up what this reference means in its various contexts in the Hebrew writings). I would also add "Rabbi," and "teacher." (continued)

julrich

03/28/2001 06:43:34 PM

(continued from above) I wonder if you think all these different titles, with all their various theological overtones, were in the mind of Jesus while he walked among us? Since you have left out most of the ones I like best, I hope you won't mind if I also have the freedom to choose, as a Christian, from among the titles of scripture, the most meaningful words for my own reflection and prayer. I for one do not need to know what God could know about Jesus in order to accept him into my spiritual life. What we see through the "dark glass" of our humanity is enough for my faith. Shalom and blessings, jim

Augustine_the_Canadian

03/27/2001 09:16:44 PM

Case in Point: Rabbi Wolpe makes reference to the Lord's teaching that if one doesn't "hate" their parents and follow Jesus, they are unworthy of Him. The Rabbi says he finds this troubling. Yet I pose a question; if the Lord Jesus is in fact the Savior, the True Light, the Son of the Living God, in fact one with God...if to be in His Light is that precious, would it not be idolatrous to put human respect, even the bonds of family, ahead of Him? The Lord is obviously speaking in hyperbole, speaking of putting Him and His Message ahead of even family ties. I would like to ask the Rabbi, if he felt it would be ok for a Jew to throw aside his obligation to obey the Torah, and be an observant Jew, if his parents were thoroughly secular, and made it clear they did not want their son trafficking in such things? Would it be ok for the son to, from a Jewish view, disobey God, in order that he would not come in conflict with his parents?

Augustine_the_Canadian

03/27/2001 09:11:08 PM

Reply to the Article: As for Rabbi Wolpe's article, it misses the mark in several ways. Perhaps this is just my slanted perception, but I get the impression that the Rabbi is looking for any reason to find cause for scandal. While I revere the Old Testament, to be perfectly honest, I have found more causes to be scandalized by it's moral content than anything I've ever read in the New Testament. Thus, I wonder if he is comfortable with the Jewish tradition? I think the real question, apart from these particulars, becomes whether He, the Lord Jesus, was in fact the Son of God. Was He what He claimed to be, what His disciples claimed He was? If so, then all of this wrangling becomes pointless.

Augustine_the_Canadian

03/27/2001 09:05:36 PM

DINAFELICE: I would agree that the worship of someone apart from God would be incorrect. However that is precisely the point of Christians; we do not simply worship Jesus because we think He was a "swell guy", or even a great Prophet; we believe He is in fact God Incarnate, He is the "uncreated Word". This being the case, to NOT worship Him becomes the slight against the dignity of God.

alinechammmas

03/24/2001 07:25:23 PM

I know that the jews are waiting for the messiah,the savior. But what i still haven't figured out yet is , when he comes , if he comes , what exactly is he going to save them from ??? What i mean is, , at this stage of history , jews dont really look like they need any help. By the way , it has been a long long time ( more then 2000 years ) since the last prophet , why this silence between God and his chosen people ???

Loretta18014

03/23/2001 02:46:35 PM

I am enjoying your posts tremendously. (I see that I too have a tiny space to write in with no way to expand it.) In regards to Mary worship--this belongs to the Catholic Church and not the Evangelical Christian community. In regards to the cannibalizing--this also belongs to the Catholic Church and not the general Christian populous. Scripture tells us that those who love the Jews will be blessed by God, and those who hate the Jews will be cursed by God. I can't imagine anyone hating the Jews just because of their religion. Re: The Trinity, this starts back at the beginning of the Bible. "In the beginning God created." (Actually "Gods" as ELOHIM is plural but "created" is singular. Verse 2 declares: "The Spirit of God moved...) (RUACH ELOHIM). Verse 26: "And God said, Let Us make man in OUR image. after OUR likeness." To whom is God speaking who has the SAME IMAGE and LIKENESS as HE and who has the POWER TO CREATE WITH HIM? Thank you and Shalom. Loretta

julrich

03/14/2001 08:15:50 PM

Ruven, Thankyou. I can relate to both concepts of God. I wonder if you think the "rabbi" title for Jesus remembered in the Gospels offers a link between Judaism and the modern Christian attempt to reconcile theology and the search for the historical Jesus? Bruce Chilton, an Episcopal Chaplain at Bard, has published a book called "Rabbi Jesus." On this website, Episcopal Bishop Spong says: "We need to embrace both intellectually and emotionally the Jewishness of Jesus." Though interested in the scholarly project, I personally relate more strongly to the mystical heritage that concieves of the other more abstract concept of the divine. I don't think modern spiritual seekers have to be concerned about some doctrine of the trinity when listening for the truth of God in the rabbinic traditions, whether associated with Jesus or not. This doesn't make me a Jew, but I don't think it makes me an apostate Christian either. Shalom and blessings Jim

Ruven@heresy

03/14/2001 06:49:10 PM

There are really two different types of montheism contained in The Shema. On one level, a peson can think that there is only one God just a there is only one President. On the other level, The Shema refers to the nameless, attribute-less, all-ness, nothing-ness and evrything-ness that comprises the universe and compromises everything that came before the universe and will come after the end of the universe. Jews who think of God as a single being separate from themselves really engage in anthropomorphic thinking. The Ulta-orthodox Jews [Haredim] are closer to Christianity in their subconscious belief system than they are to the abstract God of The Shema. The Hasism and Haredim revere their rebbes in a fashion which is similar to how many Christians view Jesus.

DinaFelice

03/08/2001 06:56:59 PM

julrich, Thank you for your kind complemnts. I'm really enjoying explaining the Jewish perspective on things. Jewish tradition teaches that veneration of any person or thing is idolatry. Even kings and prophets are merely human and subject to human faults. At the same time, every human has a special connection to G-d because we were created in His image. Having said all that, I'm sure that most of the Jews you will meet would considor you to be a monotheist. That belief, however, is more a practical belief than a religious one; it sprung up as a way to lesson the animosity between the religions.

julrich

03/08/2001 05:39:45 PM

DinaFelice, You are good to help me with so many answers. I have Jewish members of my extended family but they might not like me asking all these questions. Let me know if I'm pestering you. You are so clear and well versed, and you don't give a lot of unnecessary stuff. I can't resist just one more question! If I personally believe that Jesus has some special mysterious relationship to G-d which I don't understand or name, and I consider the trinity and the Biblical titles of Jesus to be mere metaphors or cultural artifacts, then, from a Jewish perspective, can I be considered a monotheist, or do you think Judaism requires the veneration of Jesus to be idolatry in any case? Shalom and blessings Jim

DinaFelice

03/07/2001 11:52:45 PM

julrich 2- Please don't take offense but, from the Jewish perspective, Mariology is idolotry...but so is all of Christianity. In the Christian religion, you have the problem of G-d being represented by Jesus, a man; therefore, I understand the desire for a 'female version.' In Judaism, that particular problem doesn't really exist. You see, in Hebrew, there is no neutral gender; that is, all words are either masculine or feminine. When we talk about G-d, Our Father, Our King (a famous prayer) we are, naturally, discussing Him in a male way. However, when you speak about G-d as the creator it is in a female aspect (creator is a feminine word). Hebrew has no word for 'it,' therefore, when we speak of G-d, we use the default word: 'He.' In Enlish, we really should use 'It' but we (I at least) have a hard time with that.

DinaFelice

03/07/2001 11:44:12 PM

julrich-wow. You certainly pack in the questions, don't you? :-) The return of Elijah is hoped for only in the sense that it will lead quickly to the messiah and the messianic age (complete with the end of war, end of suffering, rebuilding of the Temple, ect.) I don't believe that the rejection of other beliefs by traditionalists makes the beliefs wrong. After all, humans, even religious ones, are fallible. Judaism does not require that that Gentiles believe the same thing that Jews believe. It doesn't even require (in most cases) that JEWS believe the 'right' things. We are more concerned with actions because no one can know another's thoughts. I, too, would like to think that openness is a good thing and does not require giving up traditions...but I don't know. (I am not a 'traditional' Jew; I was mostly raised Reform, am now more Conservative and I sometimes think that I 'should' be Orthodox.)

julrich

03/06/2001 10:44:47 PM

DinaFelice Thanks again. So the Messiah will be a man. Elijah was a man. Is the return of Elijah hoped for? Is that hope wholly unrelated to the messianic hope? Do you think rejection of modernist or unorthodox beliefs by religious traditionalists invalidates those beliefs, or are you a pluralist open to different truths contained in the wide variety of beliefs? I like to think openness to a variety of truths does not require giving up your tradition, but I could be wrong in a couple more generations. Am I risking too much? (continued below)

julrich

03/06/2001 10:44:14 PM

(continued from above) Mariology is Catholic theology about Mary. My point is that women who might need to feminize their experience of G-d to overcome a mental block against the male metaphor might also stand in the pagan tradition of idolizing the mother of God. Is monotheism so important that such a woman should eschew Mary (or some other Goddess) and be stuck with the default male metaphor? I think Sophia is the Greek name for the feminine figure of divine wisdom in the Jewish wisdom literature. I love the promise of the worldly messiah of peace. I hope for him/her. I sincerely believe that elevating the awareness of the human race to that hope in the Faith that the one true Creator wants this for humankind will move the almighty to make it happen. Shalom and blessings, Jim

DinaFelice

03/06/2001 02:19:03 PM

julrich (part 2) There have been many branches of Judaism that have practiced a wide variety of things. They are usually rejected by the traditional Jews and eventually either get assimilated into some other culture or re-assimilate into the traditional Jewish system. (We can see this happening today in America. Most reform and consevative Jews slowly assimilate until they are indisiguishable from Gentiles or decide to become orthadox.) I have absolutely no idea what Mariology is or who Sophia is so I can't answer those questions.

DinaFelice

03/06/2001 02:18:45 PM

julrich (part 1) (I'm not sure if this quite answers your question but here goes.) The messiah is to be a man, nothing supernatural about him. He will be a great leader who will change the world in a physical way, that is, he will rebuild the Temple in Israel and cause all Jews to return to that land which G-d promised us. There will be no 'suffering' on his (the messiah) part because the entire world will accept him as the messiah (which literally means 'annointed.') There will no longer be any kind of war. This is to happen here on Earth, not in heaven or anywhere else.

julrich

03/06/2001 09:58:13 AM

DinaFelice Thanks. Good distinction between metaphor and idol. Difficult to maintain, yet without metaphors, we have the greater difficulty of keeping faith in the unknown. Lots of women think of Mary today because they can't overcome Patriarchal obstacles to their faith. Would you say they could not maintain that difficult distinction if they were steeped in a tradition of "Mariology?" Why expect that of people? Is there a similar problem with Sophia? I for one don't believe that from the days of Abraham the traditions and practices of Judaism continuously maintained that distinction between metaphor and idol. Do all the various branches of Judaism today maintain it? As an historian I'm curious of the scholarship that demonstrates when the distinction was most likely to have been made for the first time. (Continued)

julrich

03/06/2001 09:57:20 AM

DinaFelice (from above) Anthopomorphism is ascribing human traits to something not-human, whether myth, fantasy, literature, or religion. About Isaiah, I said: "the greek translators of Isaiah had injected the word for 'virgin' where it couldn't even be implied in the original Hebrew, so the Gospel writers had lost touch with their source." You replied: "Isaiah's prophacy that is generally cited as being 'proof' of the virgin birth never mentioned a virgin (the word meant 'young woman') and had nothing to with the messiah in any way, shape or form." I'm till interested in my question about Elijah and the messiah. Shalom and blessings Jim

DinaFelice

03/06/2001 02:43:10 AM

julrich, One more quick thing: Isaiah's prophacy that is generally cited as being 'proof' of the virgin birth never mentioned a virgin (the word meant 'young woman') and had nothing to with the messiah in any way, shape or form.

DinaFelice

03/06/2001 12:43:41 AM

julrich, I don't quite understand what you mean by "anthropomorphic" in the context in which you use it. Jewish sources frequently say things like "with a mighty hand and an outstreched arm the Almighty brought us out of Egypt" and enourages them-as a metaphor. We, as humans, are incapable of understanding G-d in all His complexities: if it helps us to comprehend the miracle of the Exodus (or any other of G-d's actions), we should use those metaphors while always remembering that they ARE metaphors for a greater thing. (THAT is the reason why we are prohibited from creating idols, not so much because we would worship a different deity but because it would be imposing limits on what we would, from then on, be capable as seeing G-d as.)

julrich

03/05/2001 08:50:08 AM

Thanks DinaFelice, The Virgin birth is no less anthropomorphic than the footsteps of God in Eden. From what I hear, the greek translators of Isaiah had injected the word for "virgin" where it couldn't even be implied in the original Hebrew, so the Gospel writers had lost touch with their source. Many of us humans need anthropomorphisms. Does Judaism disallow them now? I agree that the Trinity is a stumbling block to many, myself included, but I'm sure it cannot be as offensive to me as it is to you. "Sonship" is a late title assigned to Christ, not what he thought of himself. I like a religion that lets you choose among different hopes and dreams. Does the dual expectation of Elijah and the Messiah in Judaism compare to the different titles of Christ in Christianity? What I really believe is that Jesus was a man full of God's spirit who chose to be known through is deeds and relationships so that we might sense God as a presence in our own lives.

DinaFelice

03/04/2001 03:30:39 AM

julrich, Of course I can't know what Ruven was thinking, I will attempt to answer your question. The entire idea that G-d had a son is antithetical to the idea that G-d is everywhere and in everything. How could He who is the Father of us all (and the Mother as well-G-d is neither male nor female, we just use "He" as a default) have one 'special' son? If you take the view that Jesus is G-d as part of the Triune, How can G-d divide? He is all, how can He be less than that? I'd discuss the virgin birth as well, but I'm running out of room and you might think it is just a part of the mythology.

julrich

03/03/2001 10:35:12 PM

Ruven, Since the object of your faith is the core idea of Judaism, I presume the mythology of Judaism is not. If that is so, why do you imply that "accepting Jesus" is believing in Christian mythology? I won't project a "straw man" of Judaism if you won't project one of Christianity. I need to know what you think of MY faith. That's why I'm here. For me to get that, you have to respond to me, to what I have said, not to some part of the Chrlistian mythology you don't like. Shalom and blessings, Jim

Ruven@heresy

03/03/2001 06:38:30 PM

While there may have been a man named Jesus who taught some religious principles, he is not the Jesus of Christianity. The core idea for Jews is The Shema which says that The Lord God is one. "God" is beyond description and comprehension. The idea that one can gain salvation by cannibaling the body and blood of a dead god is very repulsive to the Jewish mind that sees God as the One of Everything. The question is not Why DON'T Jews accept Jesus, but Why would anyone belief Christian mythology.

DinaFelice

03/01/2001 11:59:39 PM

For a very complete explanation of why Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, please go to http://www.jewsforjudaism.org Especially in "Knowledge Base" under 'Resources'. It has small articles on everything from virgin birth to the ressurection from Isaiah to the second coming. (Far more information than I could include in this limited post.)

cjames

02/27/2001 04:50:42 PM

Rabbi Wollpe. Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

julrich

02/21/2001 02:00:14 AM

(continued from below) Rabbi Wolpe has no way of knowing how millions of Jews may have responded to Jesus. He's being the spokesman for the religion of Judaism about Jesus. That gives him about as much credence as official spokesmen for the religions of Christianity. You read the ancient literature for yourself. You reflect in your conscience on the meaning you get for your soul there. From your spiritual discipline and your awareness, you will find out who Jesus is for you. Then you will place him where he belongs in your personal faith. You'll do the same for all the great spiritual teachers and leaders in the collective human heritage. You may still practice your religion of Zen, or Mennonism, or Wicca or whatever, but your faith will not be defined by that tradition alone; not in this millennium.

julrich

02/21/2001 01:57:05 AM

The good Rabbi would have you believe that the Jesus who existed and exists is the Jesus of the Christian Religion. But I don't think he would want your experience of ,say, Baal Shem Tove to be limited by what my opinion might be about the religion of Judaism. Was Martin Luther King just a Baptist? Was Gandhi just a Hindu? Mother Theresa just a Catholic? Jesus was a Jew. The first century Christians were a sect of Judaism, and the early Gospels were Jewish lectionaries for use in Jewish synagogues. Does this mean Jesus was just another Rabbi, as Rabbi Volpe seems to think? I say, let Jesus be Jesus for you. He's not real if he's only what some tradition or theology defines him to be.

Prufrocks

02/08/2001 12:37:33 PM

Thibhoob says, "And Jesus says many times, that no one can come to the Father but through Jesus Christ... I don't think just any man would make such a statement..." This is true, including Jesus himself. It is the theology of John being put into Jesus' mouth. Early proto-Christians searched their Jewish scriptures looking for anything to explain and give meaning to Jesus' death. And to create fictive events and words in the gospels "fullfilling prophecy." If any of Isa 52:13-53:12 applies to Jesus, then ALL of them must. which is clearly not the case. The Qumran community also applied Hebrew scriptures messianically to their "Teacher of Righteousness," including some of the exact same verses Christians used for Jesus. It was a very Jewish practice.(See Michael Wise's book "The First Messiah). The belief that Jesus "died for our sins" is a post-Easter theological creation.

Thibhoob

02/08/2001 01:09:17 AM

I simply believe this: That Jesus Christ is who He says He is. If any of you have your bibles, take a look at Isaiah Chapter 53 (The Suffering and Glory of the Servant). This describes Jesus Christ. In verse 5 it says we are healed by his wounds. Also, look at Isaiah 9:6-7. That clearly describes Jesus as well. Another one is Psalm 8:4-8. Now, just as Jesus Christ was prophesied about in the OT, the prediction came true in the NT. The bible clearly states that everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God(Romans 3:23) and are justified freely through his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus(v.24). And Jesus says many times, that no one can come to the Father but through Jesus Christ. That's a pretty bold statement. I don't think just any man would make such a statement. Jesus spoke with authority.

Prufrocks

02/02/2001 04:12:17 PM

Born and raised devout Christian, I can only believe that Jesus himself would turn over in his grave if he ever found out what Christians did to his Jewish person, faith,G od, and program. An honest informed reading of the Jewish Bible forces the conclusion that neither the G_d of that Bible, nor humankind created in His image, has any need or use for a bloody, atoning, human sacrifical messiah. With good reason tat virtually no observant Torah- and Hebraica-knowledgable Jews convert to Christianity. While formerly observant, commited, informed and devout Christians do, in fact, convert to Judaism. Besides perverting Judaism and Jesus, there is no doubt that centuries of murderous Christian antisemitism have their roots in the Christian gospels. Christianity will survive in some form or another to the degree it can successfully adapt, as have the Jews, to a messiah whose [second] coming is forever deferred and delayed, always in the future.

Captainjared

01/19/2001 01:55:18 AM

Rabbi Wolpe's "Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus" is a brave effort, but it misses the mark. Jews do not accept Jesus Christ for the very simple reason that the New Testament's promotion of him to divine status is seen from the Jewish perspective as idolatrous, a violation of the first of the Ten Commandments. Lest any Christian reader remain curious on this point, I will spell it out: beliefs that in Christianity are bandied about as the order of the day (the idea that Jesus was G-d in human form, that Jesus was "very God and very man", the incarnation, etc) are seen from the Jewish perspective as nothing short of sheer blasphemy, a violation of the absolute and untrammelled unity of the One G-d. Jesus' alleged disregard for the Torah is merely a sidebar to this. I hope no one takes offense to this posting, but even the most pious of Christians must realize that, as Jews see it, there is an absolute distinction between the human and the divine - and that includes Jesus.

see2jhn9

12/08/2000 03:50:40 PM

Dear breadandbutterfly - Jesus was fully human, yet was also God (see 1Tim 3:16). Some things we can not understand (Deut 29:29). Please read 2Peter chapter 3 concerning the return of Christ. He is still coming - he may be waiting just for you! Sincerely, see2jhn9

see2jhn9

12/08/2000 03:35:44 PM

Part 2 comment: If we would all realize our miserable spiritual condition before a holy and righteous God, we would run to Jesus, clothed in humility, for his perfect, atoning sacrifice! "Blessed are the poor in Spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven". Dear Rabbi, please consider Psalm 2:12 "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry,and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are they that put their trust in him. As Jesus asked 2 thousand years ago - he asks today "Who do you say that I am?" Kindest Regards, see2jhn9

see2jhn9

12/08/2000 03:34:44 PM

Part 1 comment: The Rabbi's problem is the same problem the Jews had in Jesus' day - they were and are looking for a physical kingdom. I am sure the Rabbi is much, much more learned than me, but it seems to me the book of Hebrews explains away all his arguments. Also, his use of Matt 24:34 (a very misunderstood chapter by the way)is wrongly applied. This statement WAS fulfilled in Acts 2 with the birth of the church - his kingdom (Col 1:12-13), a spiritual kingdom - not physical! I also do not understand how a so called Jew today finds any hope outside of Christ, since they do not even observe all of the Mosaic Laws today. Where is their sacrafice? Where do they find righteousness? Kindest regards (part 2 to come)

breadandbutterfly

12/03/2000 06:15:36 AM

I think it's really interesting that (many) Christians view Judaism as God's way of preparing the world for Christianity, (many) Muslims view Judaism and Christianity as God's way of introducing Islam to the world, and (many, including Rabbi Wolpe) Jews view Christianity and Islam as God's way of further spreading monotheism in the world. It's a pity this relationship can't be one that leads to more positive interactions between the faith groups.

breadandbutterfly

12/03/2000 06:09:45 AM

This is a really succinct discussion of basic issues. Rabbi Wolpe outlines not only the problem Jews have with Jesus but also the problems inherent within Christianity. Jesus has to have been thoroughly human and thoroughly Jewish to be the redemptive messiah. So how then can Jesus be thoroughly God? And how can Jesus's followers' religion exceed Judaism? The early followers I think must have believed in his resurrection but they certainly believed in Christ's imminent return. 2,000 years later, what are we supposed to think about all this?

Ann123

11/14/2000 02:08:52 PM

kcorn- Rabbi Wolpe quotes Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel as saying,"How can we take seriously a friendship that is conditioned ultimately on the hope and expectation that the Jew will disappear?How would a Christian feel if we Jews were engaged in an effort to bring about the liquidation of Christianity?" In the NT,Paul speaks of how the conversion of the majority of Jews to Christianity will be a sign of the endtimes.There is something apocalyptic about the disappearance of the Jew,and maybe it isn't so bright and cheery as Paul would like to paint it.

kcorn

10/26/2000 05:33:00 PM

I think it's clear that the editors of Beliefnet don't appreciate the importance of this column enough to monitor it or pay attention when the people who might use it. This seems strange to me because the column addresses some of the most fundamental issues in Judaism and this particular piece addresses one of the most significant issues in inter-religious dialogue--and I thought furthering that was one of the missioins of Beliefnet. Is anyone minding the store?

river8101

10/13/2000 06:33:13 AM

It is unfortunate that the editors of this forum do not fix this column. It has not been working for months. I have written them, and they say they are working on it, but it appears they are not. These are good forums, but they lack the ability to edit a post after you read it as it will appear. That is unfortunate. Most any good forum can edit. I am writing on half a page.

Jackie_June3

10/04/2000 11:25:03 AM

In regards to reading the posts if you put your pointer on the left scroll bar and roll it until it appears horizontal you can stretch the entire post out across your screen

Jackie_June3

10/04/2000 11:21:31 AM

God chose the Jews to lead the world into an understanding of atonement. God loves all of his creation and wants them to know how much. Jesus born as a Jew became the salvation and Living Way to God. He is the One who has fullfilled the word of the prophets, the ultimate Jewish Leader,the Son of God. I am thankful that as a Gentile I can have faith and I love the Jewish people because my Jesus is Jewish. I was recently in Jerusalem and as I stood in the place where Jesus stood and looked at the sealed eastern gates I found myself weeping. I thought of how He wept over the city knowing that He came unto His own but His own received Him not. I also was moved with the knowledge that He will return through those very sealed gates after He raises the dead who are buried in front of them. We know that the High Priest cannot be contaminated by the dead, but the author of life will not be intimidated by death.

river8101

09/17/2000 07:33:11 AM

Thanks, LittleWings54. Worked for me! I have reported this gliche to the webmaster, because it has happened before, and they are working on it.

jerrylee

09/15/2000 06:48:25 PM

littlewing54 I tried your suggestion but got just a blank window. I'd love to read all the posts here and on other topics but am unwilling to go back and forth to read them. Seems like we should be able to move the column separator left and right to view the post column. Hope this problem can be solved.

LittleWing54

09/14/2000 02:52:41 PM

River, if I may suggest: Right-click your mouse in the post section, and at the top of the "pop-up" menu that you're given, you'll see a choice to open the section in a new window. If you select it, it will leave the article open, but give you a second, full-screen window where you can read the whole post easily.

river8101

09/12/2000 05:16:14 AM

I cannot read here anymore because the posts don't stay within the right margin. This happens frequently. To offset this write your posts on just 1/3 of the posting block.

lxvoyager

09/01/2000 08:25:11 PM

Trying to stay with the article and going to the two issues in paragraph 1. - I, for some reason never viewed the life and death of Jesus as the end of suffering-at least not here or not yet. The life abundant mentioned in John 10:10 is, in my opinion, an inward change only. The adrenaline and smiles seen on some TV and talk shows worries me. I can see why people would view them skeptically. The rejecting of Jesus by His own I would expect. Anyone, even today, would reject the philosophy of such a person without unusual proof. Some scientist said “Remarkable Claims require remarkable proof” -or something like that. If I can’t get back to this discussion I thank Rabbi Wolpe for his sincerity and contribution.

lxvoyager

08/30/2000 08:14:36 PM

river8101: I'm certainly not pastor material. The address "pastor in training" sounds a bit too controversial and too negative. It's all I can do to figure out how to respond in this forum alone-I just reloaded my browser 3x. I think beliefnet offers an opportunity for everyone to express what they believe and why. In a way I wish there was only one Faith and we were all looking to our history for answers.

river8101

08/30/2000 12:53:41 PM

Looks like you can't get there from here. You can try putting this up in Location: http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=406&discussionID=6789 Or go to Judaism, then find Discussions, and then Contemporary Issues.

river8101

08/30/2000 12:50:20 PM

If that URL didn't work, try this one. Pastor in Training

river8101

08/30/2000 12:23:41 PM

lxvoyager: You might want to read "Pastor in Training" at another site here. A pastor comes into the Jewish forum pretending to want to know more about Jews, but coming up against resistance begins his conversion tactics. Pastor in Training

lxvoyager

08/29/2000 08:32:49 PM

Wow! I’m new to discussion boards and I’m not used to the rhetoric. I guess I’m a “Fundie” by definition although I’ve never voiced myself over another persons’ words that I’m aware of. I don’t discount the beliefs of Old T. or New T. believers. I prefer to learn from both. Rabbi David Wolpe made more points than I can address in one article. I differ in that I believe the texts of our past must be respected and considered to approach a conclusion. On the topic of perfection I don’t think we can understand it (or attain it) on our own. The Old T. mentions a man called Job [Job 1:1] who was blameless and upright fearing God and shunning evil. In the New T. Jesus warns against this word which almost seems synonymous with the word ‘good’. In Matt. 19:17 Jesus said “Why do you call me good”? No one is good except the Father. Lastly even if I had access to all the texts throughout history in a perfect English translation-I would still pray for God to ‘un-blind’ me for the messages truly there.

river8101

08/29/2000 12:31:46 PM

tennisforall I agree with you.

tennisforall

08/24/2000 09:41:40 PM

I would like to suggest that Thomas Jefferson, one of our founding fathers, had a sound view of reality. He believed in a Creator God. He thought this was self evident by observing creation and thinking about creation. He and Thomas Paine were Deists. They believed that a Higher Intelligence was self-evident by observing nature and life in action. They had no real respect for revealed religion, however. Christianity and other religions develop dogma's and mythologies that contradict man's reason and common sense. The idea that Jesus was God or the idea that salvation is for a special group that thinks in a certain way was viewed as deception and fable. The Creator God is creator of everyone. The Creator views us all as equals because he created us for a reason and purpose. Deists also thought that reason should rule over dogma and so-called revealed religion. Personally, I think their view makes a lot of sense. tennis...

tennisforall

08/24/2000 09:41:02 PM

I would like to suggest that Thomas Jefferson, one of our founding fathers, had a sound view of reality. He believed in a Creator God. He thought this was self evident by observing creation and thinking about creation. He and Thomas Paine were Deists. They believed that a Higher Intelligence was self-evident by observing nature and life in action. They had no real respect for revealed religion, however. Christianity and other religions develop dogma's and mythologies that contradict man's reason and common sense. The idea that Jesus was God or the idea that salvation is for a special group that thinks in a certain way was viewed as deception and fable. The Creator God is creator of everyone. The Creator views us all as equals because he created us for a reason and purpose. Deists also thought that reason should rule over dogma and so-called revealed religion. Personally, I think their view makes a lot of sense. tennis...

river8101

08/02/2000 06:28:37 PM

Why Christians Evangelize: The "tradition of the curse" which Christianity has traditionally placed upon those Jews who refused to follow Jesus has become integral to the mythology of our culture handed down from generation to generation. What makes anti-Semitism unique, and most uniquely linked to Christianity as such, is the dramatic element of mystical satanism that is the only way specifically, Christian thought has for centuries explained the historic existence of the Jewish people since the Crucifixion. For if the drama of Christianity is to retain it's magnetism, if personal salvation via the redemptive crucifixion, with or without the Intervention of a Church is to remain a potent symbol for the Christian masses, the Jews constitute and alien, repugnant, and profoundly indigestible element in Christian thinking.

river8101

07/28/2000 08:20:08 AM

Jesus was the Messiah in the Jewish context but not the Christian one? What does that mean? Makes no sense. Christianity sprung out of Judaism and paganism. How does your story make Jesus the Jewish messiah? The Jewish messiah was supposed to bring an end to war and suffering. So far, doesn't appear that's happened.

Horus

07/27/2000 05:59:08 PM

I have reached the following conclusions: (1) Jesus was born in about 6 B.C.E. in a stable because had he been born in the inn the blood would have contaminated the place, according to Jewish laws at the time; (3) he had his bar Mitzvah at the Temple when he was 12; (4) Jesus and John had very different views of the Messiah's role; (5) Jesus did not die on the cross -- he was drugged and taken to the tomb until he could be given an antidote and his wounds treated, but he subsequently died days later from a combination of the lung wound and infection; (6) because of the conflicting stories told by the"witnesses" I've come to the conclusion that he did not rise from the dead; (7) that Jesus was the Messiah, but in the Jewish context not the Christian one.

river8101

07/26/2000 11:41:08 AM

The 'red letters' are not unique. They are found in the writings and teachings of other Jewish rabbis who came before him, and who undoubtably he had studied. If you'd but search you'd find them.

jml02

07/26/2000 09:19:45 AM

There is light... in the red letters. There is life.... in the red letters. There is hope and fullfillness, peace and forgiveness, In the Red Letters.

river8101

07/26/2000 06:57:17 AM

When a fundamentalist Christian can't convince you to look at things from his point of view, he soon attacks you with the usual words such as "you have a hard heart or your stiff necked." It simply doesn't occur to him that you have your own set of beliefs, (or non beliefs) which are different from his and that they make as much sense to you as his makes to him. He cannot believe that you have explored his ideas and actually rejected them because they did not strike you as true or meaningful or perhaps even of any importance. Or that you have explored his ideas and simply interpreted them differently. He cannot understand that by INSISTING that you are not seeing things as they 'really are' (in his opinion) he becomes irritating, annoying and worst of all condescending and therefore you react in a defensive way. That is not hard-hearted, that is fustration! There is a difference.

river8101

07/25/2000 10:17:03 PM

Argument from sacred texts My (fill in sacred book) was written and/or inspired by god. I know this because there is: A) confirming historical data in the book. B) because it contains 'prophecies' that have come true. C) because it contains moral truths, D) because "it says it's true," E)because, barring evidence to the contrary, we should accept texts as true, not presume, a priori, that they are false, and F) because it "makes sense," and if you only study it closely, it will make sense to you too. There are many such books. Many of them are mutually contradictory.

river8101

07/25/2000 10:10:20 PM

No matter how many times a prophesy "fails" to come true, the words themselves are sufficiently vague to permit different interpretations. If I say it will rain in Cleveland tomorrow, and it doesn't rain in Cleveland tomorrow, then I have prophesied falsely. But if I prophesy "Storms shall come upon the Land Which Cleaves" -- the words are so vague that there will never be a time when such a prophesy can be unambiguously demonstrated to have failed. As such, they have no fixed consequences and cannot be used to confirm the text.

jml02

07/25/2000 02:17:16 PM

Thank you.

river8101

07/25/2000 08:53:19 AM

You'd be surprised how loudly true sincerity comes through on a message board, and how quickly a mean-spirited person or a true fool is identified. Mean-spirited persons and true fools do not matter.

river8101

07/25/2000 08:45:43 AM

I think it's very interesting that some of the evangelizers on this forum seem to convey that they were not raised as Christians, yet they refuse to admit how they were raised. Were they raised as Jews, or were they raised as Christians who just weren't fundies? Hummm.

river8101

07/25/2000 08:42:04 AM

Such drivel. Grow up, wake up and don't patronize me. I have peace also, except when I read drivel like yours. Don't worry about my heart, just worry about your mind. It's closed, dear.

jml02

07/24/2000 02:40:15 PM

river8101, Go back and read your posts, and read mine also. Try to remember the anger you had in your heart when you wrote those words. It is evident it was there, from reading what you had to say. Why is it obvious, yet the tone I write/speak with is so different? Why can I have a peace about my beliefs, yet you feel so challenged and angry? I spent 25 years not acknowleding God. I haven't been raised to believe what I belive. I have Jesus in my life now. I have something you don't, something you've hardened your heart to. You've got to understand that before you can start changing your life, changing your bad habits, changing your temperment, filling the emptiness you have. Leave yourself behind for a time and explore the issue. I promise you, or whoever else is reading this, you won't be sorry.

river8101

07/22/2000 06:16:37 AM

There's nothing more nauseating than a Jew who converts to Christianity and by doing so betrays his own people, his ancestors and the millions of martyrs, murdered by Christians for the past 20 centuries. The leaders and followers of a religion that teach that hatred and persecution are justified in the Bible are practicing genocide not religion. If religion doesn't teach you that doing good in this world is the only way to know G-d, there's no belief system that's gonna' get you into the next. (providing, of course, that there is one.) And nobody, NOBODY can PROVE that there is one.

river8101

07/21/2000 10:56:52 PM

You tell me to open my heart, and I say to you open your mind! For thousands of years, man believed the earth revolved around the sun, and the earth was flat. Doesn't make it so. Well, just because a lot of un- educated, and disinterested people believe that Jesus was a God because they were taught that way doesn't make it so. It is you who need to study other paths. Of course, to prevent you from questioning you've been taught that even if you open your mind a little, it's demonic. Too bad, you can't see the absurdity of that.

river8101

07/21/2000 10:56:06 PM

Never met one fundie in a class on theology. You are not linguists nor scholars in other religions. You're all bent on one way of thinking, and if anyone challenges you, you call them non-believers, mistaken dishonorable. You are too pathetic and amusing. You cannot admit you could be wrong about anything you believe, because that would destroy your faith, and your faith is more important to you than truth. It's called co-dependency. I do not feel the need to convert others to my way of thinking as you do. Only those who live in constant doubt do such things.

river8101

07/21/2000 10:54:26 PM

jm102 You are very arrogant. Let me assure you that it is you who have been taken in, not me. You who have been fed a bunch of myths, not me. How dare you tell me that I am making the mistake, that I have no honor? Where, I ask you, was the Christian world during the Holocaust, during the ghettos, the perseuctions slavery and pograms? Where was their honor? Christianity has no honor. Such a religion deseves no praise and no belief. Nothing's been 'fed' to me. I am the one who has studied. I came from a secular Jewish family. I also have a graduate degree in Comparative Religion. I'm sure I'm as scholarly as you think you are. I have also studied with theologians of all faiths to get that degree. Your posts are very simple to understand. You're a fundie. And fundies force things to mean what they want them to. They are blind to any other way of thinking.

jml02

07/21/2000 02:22:45 PM

river8101, Read with an open heart. Don't rest on what you have been told your whole life. Jesus is the ONLY way. Don't repeat mistakes of the past, just to be stubborn. There is no honor in that. We will all know who is right someday. You better hope it is you.

river8101

07/21/2000 10:47:41 AM

newkt - newly

river8101

07/21/2000 10:46:57 AM

Christians codified the New Test. about 300 years after Jesus lived. The Old Test. and the New were interpreted by newkt converted pagans, and have undercurrents of many pagan themes. Every theologian knows this perfectly well. Only fundamentalists cannot bring themselves to understand or admit the true development and redaction of the Christian Bible.

river8101

07/21/2000 10:41:21 AM

It never ceases to amaze me how Christians think they understand the meaning of Jewish Scipture better than the Jewish scholars. You, who believe that, are under a misconception. Jewish scholars study every single word of the Tenach and the Torah. Their scholars question and further question each word and each verse. Do not be deluded into thinking they do not.

river8101

07/21/2000 10:08:15 AM

Jesus was NOT the son of God. There is not a shred of proof that he was. Only pagan gods had sons and daughters. The God of Israel (which is the one you write of, said) "I am the Lord thy God, the Lord is One! (not three) Ye shall have no other Gods before me." If Christians want to redact the Jewish Bible to give themselves some antiquity they may, but all you're doing is distorting the Jewish Bible. Forget, the Old Testament. It's not yours anyway. It was not meant for you. Just use the New Test., and be what you are; followers of the teachings of St. Paul.

river8101

07/21/2000 09:59:21 AM

I am repeting this because there's no place to edit. In pagan times it was acceptable for someone to take the punishment for another person, if the guilty person was of a high rank. Apparently, G-d for some un- fathonable reason thought this a good idea, and created a human being, who was actually himself, and then sacrificed himself so that nobody would have to be responsible for their own miserable behavoir. This is the stupidist reasoning I've ever heard. G-d gave his people the Ten most important laws. I don't recall anyplace in the Torah, where G-d said if you broke His laws, He would take the rap for you.

river8101

07/21/2000 09:54:21 AM

WRITE IN HALF THE BLOCK! Then your message will not go over the margins. In pagan times it was acceptable for someone to take the punishment for another person, if that person was of a high rank. Apparently, G-d for some reason un- fathonable reason thought this a good idea, and created a human being, who was in acutality himself, and then sacrificed himself so that nobody would half to be responsible for their own behavoir. This is the the stupidist reasoning I've ever heard.

jml02

07/20/2000 09:39:58 AM

God is unable to murder Himself. Until you understand the great sacrifice God made, you will not appreciate the act. It was not murder, it was a gift. All you have to do is accept it and you will see your life change.

river8101

07/20/2000 05:44:51 AM

The margins do not work here, but if you only write one half page in the block, it will come out OK.

river8101

07/20/2000 05:43:52 AM

a very good example.

river8101

07/20/2000 05:43:34 AM

Especially since God tells us "Thou shall not murder." Then He takes part in one Himself. I don't think that's setting a very example.

river8101

07/20/2000 05:41:57 AM

The universe is a rational place. To say that God permitted the grim commission of murder so we could be forgiven our sins isn't rational.

jml02

07/19/2000 02:25:46 PM

Perry, That is an educated question and I respect it. My answer is this: We are all children of God. He is our Creator. Jesus was THE Son of God, the second part of the Holy Trinity. He was resurrected from the dead on the third day, and appeared to many people, before ascending to Heaven. We do not all do this. Jesus was also very clear about his purpose here, about what He came to do. Although we are all children of God, we do not all die for mankind's sins.

alexcapr

07/17/2000 03:24:56 PM

i USE TO BELIVE in Jesus in the Catholic church but then something happened in my life,questions arised and then now I belive in the 13 principles of Mamonides and what is Christ that dies for us on the cross.how can an human being die for us if there are still millions of peoples dying of Hunger,war and dso on and on >?i belive though that El still has a plan trough the Koran and the Gospels to get people to know His word. So I belive that all the pious peole will have a place in the world to come .

Darrill

07/15/2000 02:54:40 PM

"How do I know these things? I went through the process and God smashed my IDOL of him on Yom Kippur of 1992 after following it and loving it for 26 years. You don't think this is difficult to endure? You have no idea. God has to destroy and REARRANGE your whole INNER PSYCHIC structure which feels like death." Thummin; ever hear of 'St. John of the Cross'? It sounds like you went through a personal experience known as the 'dark night of the Soul'. It is comparable to the experience told of in Exodus at Mt. Sinai. You might want to check the library to see if they have it. The book is translated and edited by E. Allison Peers. You're gonna find that most people feel more 'secure' in their own 'little Egypts', with a 'god' they understand. But the Bible, or any other religious writings is not God.

perry

07/15/2000 09:13:55 AM

As an "Old Fashioned Seeker," I found this article enlightening. JML-I don't think Jesus was crazy. But I do wonder how much has possibly gotten lost in Bible translations. Can someone verify this: Was the King James version translated from Greek? I read that in the Greek version, it was written that Jesus said, "I am Son of God." In the translation it became, "I am THE Son of God." What if Jesus really meant "A Son of God?"

jml02

07/14/2000 10:30:05 AM

I don't have much to add that has not already been said, and fear those who are reading these postings already have their mind made up and no amount of knowledge they obtain will ever change that. But allow me to add this: the statement that Jesus was a good man, a good teacher, but not God, should not be made. Jesus told us he was God the Son. The only decision to be made is this one: Was He crazy, or was He the Savior? I know He was the Savior. I would encourage anyone reading this to study the subject with an open heart and mind and decide for yourself. Don't make your decision simply because it was how you were raised to believe. Use the mind that God gave you to make your decision.

river8101

07/13/2000 04:56:14 PM

Thummin, I am truly sorry for you. You are very mixed up.

Thummin

07/13/2000 01:07:31 PM

said you "like" orthodox; Yes Torah will be 100% fulfilled; I am talkind an experience of the soul and you HEAR debate of religion and ideas. WE are not on the same page so lets just stop here because the lack of respect for my experience gives us no common ground to speak from. God bless, shalom.

Thummin

07/13/2000 01:04:34 PM

I said you "LIKE" orthodox; Yes every iota of the Torah will be fulfilled. I am not trying to convert anyone, but you don't hear that; I have had an expereince which you deny and make fun of, so why talk to a lunatic like me. PS I will read your website. Yet You have no idea what happens to a person when they REMEMBER-zakar their true self so how can you possibly talk about it. I am not writing to debate. I am WITNESSING an experience of the soul and you hear me debating doctrine and religion. We are not even on the same page.

Thummin

07/13/2000 01:00:29 PM

I never said you were orthodox, I said you "LIKE" orthodox; I agree every iota of the Torah will be fulfilled. we obviously are not listening or hearing each other so we should not speak any further. I am not trying to convert anyone, but you don't hear that; and I have had an expereince which you deny and make fun of, so why talk to a lunatic like me. Be happy river. I know I am. shalom PS I will read your website, but I dont think I will find anything new there. You have no idea what happens to a peron when they REMEMBER-zakar their true self so how can you possibly talk to me about it. I am not writing to debate. I am WITNESSING of an experience of the human soul and you think Im debating doctrine and religion. We are not even on the same page.

river8101

07/13/2000 11:41:19 AM

"For I truly say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Torah until all is accomplished. Whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men to do so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5). That is just what the N.Test. did. And you think it is God is talking to you? I think it's some- one else. BTW, I notice you pick out the usual evangelistic verses from the Bible, take then out of context and try and convert people. with them.

river8101

07/13/2000 06:14:33 AM

Thummin, read this objectively. http://www.primenet. com/~heuvelc/bible/ library/myth.htm

river8101

07/13/2000 06:10:00 AM

http://www.primenet.com/~heuvelc/bible/library/myth.htm

river8101

07/13/2000 05:28:38 AM

Thummin: You are blinder than I thought, and obviously from every answer you have given me you have not read one of my posts, or understood them if you did. Nor, have you replied to any of my questions about the crimes of Christianity. I am NOT an orthodox Jew. I have said as much in many ways in many different posts. I've also said I'm not very observant . First you call me an atheist, than you say I'm not spiritual, and now you call me an Orthodox Jew! Isn't that a bit odd? YOU smashed your IDOL? Come on. "God has to destroy and REARRANGE your whole INNER PSYCHIC structure which feels like death." Well, Thummin, if it's difficult to endure, you've made a bigggggg mistake. Better look again.

Darrill

07/12/2000 08:03:26 PM

(page #8),"6/22/00 1:46:08 AM The bible teaches us to study to show ourselves approved to GOD,... " Lavonia, for many, that leads to spiritual egotism and the attitude of 'I'm better than that other person/people'.

Thummin

07/12/2000 06:38:44 PM

How do I know these things? I went through the process and God smashed my IDOL of him on Yom Kippur of 1992 after following it and loving it for 26 years. You don't think this is difficult to endure? You have no idea. God has to destroy and REARRANGE your whole INNER PSYCHIC structure which feels like death. Every religion has a belief about this inner destruction of vanity including Judaism, and it is mentioned at least ONCE IN EVERY CHAPTER of the Torah-Tanakh. He warns in Exodus 33:5 that he would have "ASCENDED" in the MIDST-qareb-innermost part of Israel to destroy them-kalah, but they were a stiffnecked people. They had to become ready to RECEIVE this inner destruction of the EGO because man has to have something greater to hang onto while this destruction-shamen-desolation occurs. Whether you are Christian or Jew, you have a SMASHING TIME to look forward to if you really want to find REST-SABBATH-TIMELESSNESS out of matter,abar-olam. Into eternity.

Thummin

07/12/2000 06:07:19 PM

Gods purpose for Christianty;steps a child understands. 1.Noone wanted God or his law. 2.God loved his creation: 3.God wanted to transform creation:4.God made an image of himself, put it in the world to show benevolence of the creator "in" his creation. 5.Man responded to image,said I can know God now; touch with"IMAGE-INATION"; 6.God "GATHERED" his creation thru image. 7.the moment man least expects it, God smashes the IDOL-image man has of his maker and REDEEMS man from the image man has of God and himself. 8.All the image goes through, man is prepared to go through because they love the image more than the creator. 9.When the creator smashes the image through crucifixtion(BRINGS TO NOTHING MANS VANITY ABOUT GOD& MAN)God shows himself true,good & righteous.10.Man says WOW, now I know you; NOW I LOVE YOU;how can I do anything but keep your wonderful law. In Gods plan HE alone SMASHES IDOLS,not man; unless MAN is BEYOND vanity himself, he can't smash anothers idols.

Thummin

07/12/2000 05:43:47 PM

river, you like all Orthodox Jews I have encountered in forums and chat rooms the past three years (my time in dealing with them) are deaf to anything but their agenda. I never mention Christianity yet that is all you hear. But if you want to know why I believe Chrisitanity is part of Gods ultimate plan for mankind, though not the final phase, is because it has proven itself in the past 2000 years depending on the side you are on. Christianity has lasted but that is not due to the goodness of Christians, but to the wisdom of God. Christianity is an intermediary step and you can scream and fight and call it names and go on a rampage and kill every Christian in the world and it would not wipe out the past 2000 years. I don't understand how anyone can believe in DIVINE providence and a creator in total control and not see that this religion had something to do with his ultimate plan and I am going to show what it is now.

river8101

07/12/2000 11:20:54 AM

There are many reasons why I consider Christianity to be an ill-chosen creed, such as the morals actually taught in the Bible, many of which are abhorrent to a compassionate and just man, or other details of its theology which run counter to observable facts. Even though other aspects of the creed are agreeable, the falsehood of its most important claims, (the resurrection) and the imperfection of its teachings, are sufficient grounds to abandon it--just as these are sufficient reasons for Christians to abandon every other religous faith in the world, no matter how well-meaning or wise- their teachings. This does not mean I throw out the baby with the bathwater--for if there is anything good in Christianity which can be defended as good without appeal to the supernatural, that's fine. I just don't see the need to call such things "Christian" as opposed to merely "human," for Christians do not hold the monopoly on wisdom.

river8101

07/12/2000 11:16:00 AM

The events of history do not bear you out, nor do they even allow for the application of your argument. If you do not have command of the facts, your argument, your perspective, is by definition defective. It has no legs, other than your emotion.

Thummin

07/12/2000 09:44:02 AM

river, here is how I see it; An anthropoligist wants to do a thesis on the ZULU and he sets up camp in their culture for 6 months. He watches them from the "outside" and notes all things in true scientific objective fashion. Next, we see the PBS special: JOE SHMO on "ZULUS TODAY". We notice that he sees things about them, they themselves never think about, and he gives an interesting thorough account of habits and rituals they perform and why they do them. We watch in fascination how they do these strange things which we don't understand, but it beats reruns of NYPD BLUE. We turn the TV off, so sure we know everything about the ZULUS. In truth, we know nothing important, only FACTS. Only a Zulu, knows what its like to be a Zulu. The same with scholars who study "about" the Bible. They know nothing,because God is SUBJECT not OBJECT and requires a SUBJECTIVE "relationship" to KNOW him. You can't find him under a microscope. Sorry!

river8101

07/12/2000 09:33:07 AM

Sorry for spelling errors here. 'no one understands', not 'know' one understands. As to science, there is no doubt in my mind that to a fundy, the discoveries made in evolution and other disciplines do conflict with the tales of the Bible. I choose science. There is no proof that anything you read in the Bible is correct. In fact, much of it is not correct. Too you--you read it, you believe it, it must be true, that's it. I choose to question.

river8101

07/12/2000 09:29:06 AM

Thummin: No one speaks the Biblical language more elequently or with more facts than theological scholars. They read the Biblical literature in the context in which was written, unlike you who force it to come out in a certain way, and ignore the times and conditions under which it was written. We do not write or speak 'about' the Bible. You are completely wrong. Probably know one understands or reads the Bible more conservatively than Theologians.

Thummin

07/11/2000 12:45:50 PM

Part two; PS the only reason you see me as a fundie is because I speak the Biblical language rather than the language ABOUT the BIBLE. If I speak in normal lingo, you wouldn't be able to tell I have a religion or knowledge of the Bible at all. That is why I said I am speaking to Biblical scholars who know the Bible deeply and not to people who speak "about" the Bible. They are two different languages.

Thummin

07/11/2000 12:40:51 PM

river, God bless, sincerely!I am not going to continue this because your knowledge due to your "many educational endevours" gives us no level playing field. All you try to do is destroy my faith and witness, and I have no respect for that. Scholars have their place in religion, as all scientists do, but one can not speak religion and science in the same context. Even a scientist must begin with a "theory" to prove or disprove. A religious man begins with faith and through his journey that faith purifies REASON and makes it compatible with truth. Fact and truth are not necessarily synomymous. I am a counselor with a science degree, but I have always found if my reason leads, I get stuck, because reason is "conditioned" by a lifetime assimilating thoughts. When faith leads, my reason gets unstuck and sees newness and I am able to go further in knowledge than I started with. I am not a fundie. Sorry you see it that way. I belong to no church or religious denomination. I walk alone.

Sailor

07/10/2000 06:32:23 PM

I think it all depends on what you have on your altar, God or the Bible.

river8101

07/10/2000 11:41:26 AM

Thummin: I have a graduate degree in Comparative Religion. I'm sure I'm as scholarly as you think you are. I have also studied with theologians of all faiths to get that degree. Your posts are very simple to understand. You're a fundy. And fundys force things to mean what they think they should. They are not linguists nor scholars in other religions. You're all bent on one way of thinking, and if anyone challenges you, you call them average believers, or non-spiritual, or non scholarly, etc. You cannot admit you're wrong about anything you believe, because that would destroy your faith, and your faith is more important to you than truth. It's call co-dependency

Thummin

07/10/2000 09:51:00 AM

First of all I apologize to all the people who read my posts and just don't understand them. I was just told this the umpteenth time on another post, yet again. I have to say I am not writing to the average believer of any religion, but the scholar and those who know both religions very deeply. So if you don't get my posts, Im sorry, but they were not meant for you. If you are out there and you do get them and you just ignore their content, I just have to say, I would hate to be in a profession which led people to God and yet had to keep the lid on TRUH revealed, because it would put me out of a job or out of the favor of the eilte scholars I call my friends. I guess Im glad I am a nobody so I can be a somebody to God the creator. But then he is probably not an issue for most scholars as much as "THEIR IDEAS" about him.

river8101

07/10/2000 08:22:04 AM

Nomad: You are trying to debate rationally with a person who is irrational. If it doesn't work out logically, a fundy will figure out a way to force a belief to come out they way they want them to. This is a difficult forum. You cannot follow through on thoughts because there's not enough space. Then to make matters worse, you must go above instead of below to continue. This doesn't work well at all. There are some very good religious forums out there, with good formats and good posters with different points of view.

Thummin

07/09/2000 11:54:33 AM

Again read my post on ALMAH and how it means "hidden and huddled together". It is scripture about EVERY MANS VISITATION, ie APPOINTED CHOQ-unknown meaning of a feast day. Jews celebrate their ritual feast days in PREPERATION for each and EVERY MAN having this personal experience with GOD at an appointed hour, known only to God. Daniel was told in the last chapter; SLEEP and REST DANIEL for you will STAND IN YOUR LOT in the LATTER DAYS. Here we see there is a "LOT" cast for this appointment which every Jew agreed to keep. Daniel was also told, the WICKED would NOT UNDERSTAND, while the righteous would and they would be as STARS shining bright; Abraham seed who would be so numerous in numbe they would be uncountable. We are also told those who turn others to righteousness would get the same reward so they are the same people. It is time to stop LOOKING out there and look within. OUR REDEMPTION is personal and individual no matter what group we belong to.

Nomad

07/09/2000 06:50:16 AM

(Isaiah 7:14-15 concluded) Beyond all this, one must question, if one accepts the orthodox Christian position, if Jesus was perfect and God himself in human form, he would never have to choose between good and bad, as he is, assumedly, perfect. A creature of perfection who is all good can certainly not be in the position to choose the good and the bad.

Nomad

07/09/2000 06:47:18 AM

(Isiah 7:14-15 continued) Also, as pointed out already, the passage states BEFORE the child knows to choose the good and reject the evil, the land of the two kings shall be abandoned. Of course, these two kings were long gone before Jesus was born but the passage is quite clear that the two kings rule before and during the childhood of this soon to be born boy and fall during said childhood as well. This has NOTHING to do with Jesus, near as I can tell.

Nomad

07/09/2000 06:45:19 AM

(continued) (digression--I do dislike the limitation they put on characters. Had to copy the message and delete it until it fit the criteria. Makes it difficult to finish thoughts. ;)) Travis- First off, the virgin part. You can chomp this as the bit as much as you want but the fact remains that Hebrew has a definite word that means virgin, bethulah. However, Isaiah uses almah, which simply meant a young woman. It seems to me that if Yahweh wanted his prophecy to be understood as meaning a virgin who had never had sex had been born, it would've behooved him to use a word that couldn't be construed as anything but meaning what he wanted. Beyond that, Matthew 1:23 doesn't answer my questions. All that merely states is that angels called the coming child Immanuel. You have yet to show why Jesus was named Jesus by Mary and not Immanuel. Where did Mary say anything about naming him Immanuel?

Nomad

07/09/2000 06:42:53 AM

Travis- I disagree on your analysis of the verses I presented to you. Before one interprets Isaiah's prophecies, one must accept the context. Reread the beginning of Isaiah 7. It quite clearly details the situation between Ahaz, king of Judah, and two other rulers that wished to attack Jerusalem. This situation caused concern among Ahaz and his citizens. However, Yahweh sends Isaiah to give him comfort. Isaiah points out a young woman who is pregnant within Ahaz's presence. He tells Ahaz to have the woman name the child Immanuel and before this child is old enough to know right from wrong, the lands of the two kings shall be abandoned.

river8101

07/08/2000 07:31:55 PM

That's right, Thummiin, you don't have to get it second hand anymore because you're totally delusional. You probably think your God or Jesus. I really could care less. It's too bad there are not more people on this forum who can talk about these subjects intellectually. Frankly, I don't care whether you think I'm spiritual or not. Opinions from weirdos are not important to me. Go on with your delusions. I prefer to talk religion with someone who can discuss a subject with intellect and common sense. You bore me.

Thummin

07/08/2000 05:23:17 PM

I say able to absorb the truth of scripture of their culture because when I say, "GOD GAVE IT TO ME" everyone is in uproar even more. However it was "GIVEN" and now I understand what all those GUYS said, because IT BELONGS to me as well. I don't have to get it second hand anymore. I will see if you were able to hear me this time. IF not, and if you still think IM PREACHING a message, then lets drop all this. You are not spiritually able to hear the sayings of the higher world. Don't blame yourself; You will have a lot more people to talk to then I will too; so it is better in many ways for you.

Thummin

07/08/2000 05:19:42 PM

I believe everything you said to me except "you heard all the stuff I am preaching to you". I know thats not true for NO ONE has taught me these things or this way of looking at the BIBLE; not Jews or Christians,because is based on revelation from a vision I had on Yom KIppur of 92. I say that and people blow me off like I said, my name and date. Neither Christians nor Jews, nor Messianics, nor J4J, or any faith based on all of the above have heard these things so unless you got inside my head before I knew you, you have never heard these things. As for why I was given this revelation, ask Daniel and Buddha and a number of others who have been given revelation of God. They all were lunatics in their day. None of them came up with anything new, but only were able to ABSORB the truth already revealed in scriptures of their culture.

river8101

07/08/2000 12:28:08 PM

It is probably because of my upbringing that I began to explore and study various religions. Instead of just excepting, I studied with learned Jewish scholars and Christian theologians. (no fundys) had enough of them as a kid. I have reached my own conclusions. There's nothing that urks me more than a pathetic, deluded Jew who holds hands with Christianity. If there are truly sins, (outside of wickedness) that's the biggest sin of all. Christians have been murdering Jews for 2,000 years, and there is still plenty of anti-semitism out there. A Jew who becomes a Christian is an abomination to God and his people.

river8101

07/08/2000 12:20:55 PM

Can you answer a simple question. Are you a convert? If so from what religion? Please don't preach to me anymore. I don't care for fantasy unless I'm reading Tolkein. And by the way, I'm not that young, dear. I have a graduate degree in Social Anthropology and majoring in American Comparative Religions. I have taught in college, and owned a book store for alternative religions for twelve years. I grew up in a Christian neighborhood where nearly every teacher in my school and several of my neighbors darn near converted me. So I've already heard all this stuff you're preachng to me. 'to be cont'd '

Thummin

07/08/2000 10:58:54 AM

Emmanuel means "GOD IS WITH US" and the real virgins (every one who are "CHOSEN" for this HOUR of appointed meeting or VISITATION with the God of ISRAEL, will have to become a virgin again spiritually and stop being a HARLOT) and then God will be WITH THEM. Now, the word almah-virgin in this case, refers to hidden, huddled together, its a UNITING with GOD. river you are not very old dear and I am not trying to stumble you but your "speech" is what I have heard the last five years since God has brought me to look at Judaism. I was both blessed immensely with all the truth they KEPT throughout the ages, and so dissapointed with how little the Jews understood their own scriptures and parshas. NO I do not agree with the evil of Christians behavior; I dont agree with EVIL period. May God fix this soon or we will continue to be the troubled dual minded creatures we all are meant to overcome.

river8101

07/08/2000 06:29:25 AM

Travis. I know what Immanuel means. Every single Jewish name has a meaning. Yeshua was not named Emmanuel. Your rationlizing.

river8101

07/08/2000 06:27:18 AM

Thummin: That should have read..."the horrors brought 'by' believers. And please don't tell me they weren't 'real' Christians, because all real Christians need to be saved is to 'believe' in the divinity of Christ. (At least from a fundamentalist point of view.) Not all Christians believe that fable anymore.

river8101

07/08/2000 06:24:04 AM

Travis: To be a Jew, all you need is to be born of a Jewish mother. That's it. You don't have to believe in the literal Bible or accept all the teachings of the Talmud. Thummin: YOU were chosen on Yom Kippur? Wow. Taught about arrogance! How do you explain the horrors that Christianity has brought to the world. The horrors brought about believers? You never address that. Are you a convert, or were you born that way?

Thummin

07/07/2000 07:40:03 PM

Ever since I had my "visitation" or choq-feast, ie appointed hour, on Yom Kippur of 92, I have been hearing that statement of being a heretic, lunatic, neurotic, needing something outside of myself. Yet the irony is I am at peace with God and have found a way to understand how the WHOLE BIBLE fits together like a glove, while others struggle and fight for domination over scriptures. God will reveal them to whom he wills, always has and always will be his choice. The people who call me arrogant are the very ones who are arrogant enough to think God shouldnt have chosen me when their own ideas or vain imaginations of God are so much better.

Travis

07/07/2000 07:04:13 PM

Nomad- I take back what I said about Psalms 72:4,12-14. I also have an answer for 72:7. It was not very clear in the NIV version, but I found it easier understood in the KJV. These prophecies are messianic judgemental prophecies described in revelation, when the Lamb of God (Jesus the messiah), will judge those righteous and unrighteous. This is where your interpretation of the prophecies come in. I believe that these prophecies will be fulfilled not at the first coming of the messiah, but at his second coming. That is his judgement. If you believe that the messiah was to come down here and kick butt so to speak the first time then of course you won't believe Jesus is the Messiah.

Travis

07/07/2000 06:52:54 PM

River, your claims of being Jewish are very similar to my saying something like "I'm Christian but don't worship Jesus and I don't believe half the stuff that God says."

Travis

07/07/2000 06:52:44 PM

Your answer to Isaiah 7:14-15 is found in Matthew 1:23. Keep in mind that the translation of Immanuel is "God is with us." Notice how Isaiah uses the word/name Immanuel later in Isaiah 8:8. Is 8:8- and sweep on into Judah, swirling over it, passing through it and reaching up to the neck. Its outspread wings will cover breadth of your land, O Immanuel! In other words, he is saying "O, God is with us!" As for the Virgin Birth, There are many Jewish scholars that back up the translation of the word "Almah" as virgin. There are also many Jewish sages that back up the possibility. Just because Pagans believe in some of these things doesn't mean that it is unholy, and or that we follow these pagan beliefs. Isaiah 72:4,12-14 Jesus fulfilled these throughout his Ministry. Isaiah 72:7 I need to do research and get back to you.

river8101

07/07/2000 04:05:20 PM

Thummin, that is the most irrational statement I've ever heard. You don't care what's proved? But you believe in YOUR strange interpretaion of the Bible without a shred of proof. You need help, Thummin. You live in a fantasy world.

Thummin

07/07/2000 11:18:04 AM

The virgin in Isaiah 7 is every person who is about to become ONE united Yechida, ECHAD with the LIGHT OF MESSIAH. Neither the virgin nor the Messiah have anything to do with ANYONE OUT THERE,but all is within you my friend. I don't care what you prove about history or about Jesus, you cant ignore the GOD OF ISRAEL forever. What he said would come back fulfilled and the silly IDEA from both Jews and gentiles that it has something to do with THINGS outside of us is FAST FADING. Soon people will be reaching these higher levels of the knowledge of God and he will be COMPLETEING his work-maaseh in people left and right, while the scholars sit here in darkness, with the angry behemot-animal souls, argueing about God, rather than being ONE WITH GOD. No one, I mean no one will get out of the encounter with their maker. You can laugh at 1/3 of the world till the cows come home and still you will be judged.

Nomad

07/07/2000 09:44:49 AM

Travis-- If one reads the scripture in context, the prophecy is given to give reassurance to Ahaz (or is it Ahab) that his concerns will be taken care of before this child born of a maiden is full grown (BEFORE he knows good from evil). Jesus was full grown and we still don't have peace, let alone reassurance for Ahaz/Ahab. this prophecy has nothing to do with something way in the future when it was made but acts that would take place during the recipient's lifetime.

river8101

07/07/2000 09:42:20 AM

How could Mary be a virgin and deliver a child? That only happens in pagan mythology.

river8101

07/07/2000 09:40:47 AM

Ignore part of last paragraph. It was stuck onto something else.

Nomad

07/07/2000 09:40:39 AM

Of course, the preceding post is made under the hypothesis that Mary was a virgin, among other assumptions about the tales of Jesus.

river8101

07/07/2000 09:38:50 AM

Jesus said: "For I truly say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Torah until all is accomplished. Whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men to do so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven" Yet this same preacher supposedly eradicates what he says above when he preaches the infamous: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." So how to you reeeeeach to make that jell? Yet your New Test. has him completely condemning the Mosaic law of honoring one parents. How can he say the above and

Nomad

07/07/2000 09:30:46 AM

Travis-- I apologize if this has been covered already but you asked for prophecies not fulfilled. Well, not that all prophecies claimed by Christians are considered Messianic prophecies, but here goes: Isaiah 7:15, second half of Isaiah 7:14 (Mary didn't name him Immanuel) Psalms 72:4, 72:7, 72:12-14 And that's just a skimming of the surface, but you only asked for one.

river8101

07/07/2000 09:28:52 AM

Thumin: God does not expect us to be perfect, but He does not want us to be wicked. Your idea of sin and wickedness is bizarre. There's no such thing as perfection. Doesn't exist. If God were perfect, there wouldn't be tornados, floods and suffering children. Get real.

river8101

07/07/2000 09:26:06 AM

The OT in the Ten Commandments tells us to "Honor our parents." Jesus 'supposedly' said "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Is child abuse OK too?) I wonder who really wrote those idiotic words? We know the Bible was redacted by the Church in the first council, some 300 years after Jesus lived. So you Christians take what you want from the Bible when there's a conflict, you just make lame excuses, and attempt to reinterpret it. Can you think of a better way for the Church to convert the pagans? If that didn't work, there was always the threat of persecution and death by torture. Some religion. LOL.

river8101

07/07/2000 09:22:22 AM

Judaism has nothing in common with Christianity except Christians borrowed and misunderstood the (OT) Bible. Of course, Christians arrogantly think they can interpret the meanings of the Jewish Prophets much better than the Jews who wrote and developed it. That's a laugh in itself.

river8101

07/07/2000 08:05:57 AM

PS I forgot to mention law, literature, psychiatry, and mathmatics The Bill of Rights owes much of it's foundation to Jewish law. Where else can you find it to be against the law to force a man to testify against himself, or be forced to confess under torture? Among Christians? LOL! ah hahahah!!! Big joke! If Christians spent more time worrying about this world instead of the next, they may have done some good for their people. Instead most of them suffered throuhout the centuries, while the aristo- crats and the churches got wealthy and power- ful. You call that kind of religion worth while? Tell me after you get to uh,... heaven.

river8101

07/07/2000 07:55:26 AM

(Posts are very short here.) You don't have to be believe in all that stuff to be Jewish. You just need a Jewish mom, and that's it. If you leave the fold and become a Christian, you are no longer part of the the Jewish people. As a people, we have contributed much to the world, considering we are a very small number. In the disciplines of psychology, philosophy, science, medicine music, education, charity, and yes religion. Both Islam and Christ- ianity have been spawned from Judaism. We've done much for civi- lization and have a spectac- ular tradition. We don't want to lose any Jews to Christianity where they will worry themselves to death about hell and salvation, when they might be saving lives studying medicine or science.

river8101

07/07/2000 07:46:12 AM

I do not believe in a literal heaven or hell. I do not believe that God wrote the Bible. I do not believe that Jesus was devine, or that God had children. That is laughable. I do not believe God is some father in the sky watching for every sin. I do think you reap what you sow in many cases. I think the history of Christianity is anything but perf- ection, quite the opposite and they have committed more sins than anyone in the name of religion. So, your religion must be flawed somewhere.

river8101

07/07/2000 07:43:04 AM

In answer to you're calling me a hypocrite because I take the Jewish point of view, think as you will. I am not a fundamentlist Jew. I am Jewish. but I don't believe the Bible is to be taken literally. Most Jews and many Christians would agree with me. I think evangelizers are neurotic, blind and often ignorant of facts.

river8101

07/07/2000 07:39:13 AM

PS. I know the Isaiah verse. I've heard it more times than I care to count. The correct translation for the word you call 'virgin' is really maiden, or 'young woman.' Isaiah was prophesizing the coming of a Messiah who would save Israel. NOT from hell! or from sins! but but from Israel's enemies. That is the verse you are always evangelizing to Jews, taking it out of context and the times when it was written. We explain to these poor converts what you have done, how you have distorted the story and they soon wake up. It is Christians who changed the meaning. on earth.

river8101

07/07/2000 07:31:55 AM

Theologians know the Bible was redacted by the Church in the first council, 300 years after Jesus lived. This was the new 'political' Church trying to convert the pagans. When that didn't work, there was always the threat of persecution and death. Why couldn't Jews own land in Europe for nearly 2,000 years? Because they refused to become Christians. Convert or die and starve was the motto of your 'perfect' Church. Most Jews did neither, and still survived. So much for perfect Christians.

river8101

07/07/2000 07:26:36 AM

A god impregnating a virgin who bears a son, The son is sacrificed, dies is resurrected and becomes part of the father-god -- All very common pagan myths among Persians Egyptians, Romans & Greeks. NOT Jews! They were easily adobted by the pagan cultures to which they were fed -- adding some Jewish Biblical distortions to the give the stories authenticity and antiquity Jesus would have either been horrified or possibly amused if he'd heard such stories spread about him. But, since most of the stories were spread among the pagans, he probably wouldn't have cared.

Travis

07/06/2000 11:35:20 PM

Sorry that should have been spelled "Isaiah"

Travis

07/06/2000 11:34:32 PM

River- I am not sure where you are getting this "pagan fable" stuff about christians. If you are talking about things like the virgin birth, I have news for you. That was Prophecied by Isiah and Old Testament prophet. If you were referring to something else, let me know.

Travis

07/06/2000 11:28:49 PM

River- I am curious of why you are taking the Jewish standpoint on this topic when your posts at the beginning of this page, and previous were taking an Atheist standpoint? I couldn't help but noticing, but this seems a little hippocritical.

Travis

07/06/2000 11:20:34 PM

River- You state very boldly that the concept of Jesus is shot full of wholes, yet the only thing you have done to show this is attack Christians and say "I don't believe that fake crap."

Travis

07/06/2000 11:16:13 PM

River- You have got to be joking. For my own knowledge, can you please give me the verse in the Bible where God says "I (himself) am not perfect." I agree with you that the bible states the no one is perfect (not in so many words, but it states that). However, not in the sense that "well, your not going to be perfect, so its ok." My point of defining Wickedness and sin was not to show an obsession for it. I am sorry if that is what came across. My point is to show that no human is perfect and that is the number one reason for Jesus the messiah coming to earth and dying on the cross.

river8101

07/06/2000 07:18:29 PM

We may never get back all the converts, but we are going to make sure that it won't be so easy in the future. Every Sunday school is now being equipped with first class secular schools. There, compartive religions will be taught from a Jewish per- spective. This, we believe, will stop Jewish kids who haven't been taught how to interpret their own religion, much less someone else's to under- stand better the noble and intellectual and righteous traditions of their ancestors, and resist the pagan fables of evangelizers o

river8101

07/06/2000 05:18:16 PM

Thumin, sometimes it's harder to deal with realty than illusion. We are dealing with Jews who have been 'con- verted'. Not one knew anything about Judasim, which is why they becane Christians. It did not help them find peace. It did not make them happier. We have taught these Jewish converts how they were misled. So far, we have brought more than 400 converts back to Judaism. These centers will are spread- all over the country. Jews are opening Day Schools to teach other religions from a Jewish point of view, so they will be able to know how to reply to Christians when they begin evangelizing.

river8101

07/06/2000 05:00:59 PM

Thumin, your arrogance is beyond comprehension. Only you and your ilk understand God. Of course it has nothing to do with your up- bringing, or the myths you cling to. The Messiah, if there is to be one, which I doubt (this was simply the hope of a people who had undergone much defeat and sad- bess. You don't understand anything about Jewish sages, which is why you don't understand anything about Yeshua. Only your particular inter- pretation of the Bible is right. The rest of us are stupid? hahahah!

Thummin

07/06/2000 01:04:16 PM

There is only ONE HOLE in all your understanding of God river, and that is you dont understand God, only what you are told about God in Judaism. I know how hard it is to overcome, (well actually you cant) a belief handing down as TRUTH according to your religion. The BIBLE has all truth in it but even Jewish sages say till Messiah comes the full understanding of truth will be limited to what God has revealed to the present. ONLY MOSHIACH will be able to PULL together all truth and make things clear in the BIBLE. The thing you lack most about your understanding of God, is why is he so silent and so out of control in the world??? Divine providence is a Jewish belief. You are supposed to see more of Gods hand in the world than the Christian who sees JESUS and SATAN at odds. Jews know that God is in control of Satan and has made good and evil according to the BIBLE and tells us to CHOOSE life and good over evil and death.

river8101

07/06/2000 08:06:23 AM

manonamission: You make me laugh when you say that rabbi's refuse to read certain passages in the OT. They spend their whole lives (since 3 years old) studying the OT, the Prophets, the Torah, and all the other parts of the Bible. Do you know what the Talmud is? That is the inter- pretation of every line of Torah by the most learned of all rabbis. The Talmud began before Yeshua was born. I'm sure he studied it as well. It never ceases to amaze me, how ignorant most Christians are about Judaism, especially when they think they can interpret the language and culture of Jewish history and religion better than the Jewish people can.

river8101

07/06/2000 06:29:17 AM

Szlomo: Evengelizers are obsessed with JC because they know the story is shot full of holes. You can't prove a negative, but they keep trying. Too bad for the world.

river8101

07/06/2000 06:25:19 AM

Speak for yourself Travis. My heart is not hardened to God. But my sense of God is not yours. You define wickedness, you define God, and you define sin. I'm not sure you under- stand what any of these things mean. As God once said, "Nobody's perfect!" Even God has said that about himself. You just haven't read the Bible carefully enough. I feel sorry that you are so obsessed with wickedness and sin. Be a good person, that's all that's required. "Don't do to someone else what you wouldn't want done to yourself.

szlomo

07/06/2000 12:47:56 AM

enuff of j-c. i'm sick of him! not in a jwsh place! talk about the eiruv!!!

Travis

07/05/2000 03:27:49 PM

River- Your heart is obviously hardened to God. You have said that not all people are wicked. I disagree with you. First let me clarify my definition of wicked. The wicked I was referring to was sinful. You are correct in saying that most people aren't wicked in the sense that they don't go out and murder people, and rape women. What you do not understand that in EVERY man being sinful, none are perfect. I want you to show me one human that does not sin (whether they have reason or not). Your statement that my test is invalid is only proving my point. You see, it does not matter whether you think my test is invalid or not. That is the entire point of doing the test. We already know you don't think it will work. Besides, if your right, you won't be getting a response.

river8101

07/05/2000 09:43:28 AM

To those of you who believe this country was founded on Christian principles: It wasn't. If it was, we would never have had a Bill of Rights. "Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

river8101

07/05/2000 09:39:13 AM

cont'd:Other than that, the virgin birth, (a mother goddess) a god impregnating a virgin who bears a son, the son sacrficed, dying and being resurrected and becoming part of the father-god, were all very common pagan stories and easily adobted by the pagan culture to which it was fed. Jesus would have either been horrified or possibly amused if he'd heard such stories spread about him. But, since most of the stories were spread among the pagans, he probably wouldn't have cared.

river8101

07/05/2000 09:38:00 AM

Judiasm has nothing in common with Christianity except they share the same (OT) Bible. Of course, Christians arrogantly think they comprehend the meanings of Prophets much better than the Jews who wrote it and developed it and that is a laugh in itself. The OT tells us to honor our parents, Jesus 'supposedly' said "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." them.' I wonder who really wrote those words? We know the Bible was redacted by the Church in the first council, some 300 years after Jesus lived. Could it have been the new Church trying to convert the pagans? When that didn't work, there was always the threat of persecution and death.

river8101

07/04/2000 11:26:51 PM

If Jews proslytized as Christians do, they'd have tons of converts too. Why? Because most Christians don't even know there's another side to interpreting the OT, and Christians have simply redacted it to make it fit into their own religion. No matter how you slice, it, there is no new and better world. That's what the prohecies (true or false) in the OT about the messiah was all about. Hasn't happened, maybe never will. So when your better world never came, Christians had to change that promise. They did so by subtly turning that better world into a better life after death. Quaint, but unprovable by me.

river8101

07/04/2000 11:20:49 PM

Jesus didn't fulfill any Jewish prophesies. None. Those poor lost messianic Jews are totally illiterate about the Tenach. They usually know nothing about the Old or New Testament. You can pick out this verse or that and twist it anyway you want to make it sound the way you want it to. These lost souls are usually so ignorant of their own religion, they don't have a clue on how to defend it. You missionaires go out and look for vulnerable Jews (with problems) and no solid background in their own religion and pursuade them to believe in fantasy, distorted prophecy fairy tales and fiction. The Moonies do the same thing.

manonamission

07/04/2000 10:30:16 PM

The biggest problem was that christ is the only one to fulfill all the old testement prophesies. Why are there messianic Jews? Because they read the verses in the old testement that the rabbis refuse to read. like ones found in Psalms,Isaiah,zechariah,daniel

river8101

07/04/2000 09:14:08 PM

Here's what a famous Christian religious leader said in The Protestant Reformation Martin Luther: "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows, seven times higher than ordinary thieves," and "We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them." "Ungodly wretches" he called the Jews in his book Table Talk. What is wrong with these believers? They believed in God, the Bible and Jesus. I say "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." This Bible taught this famous, or infamous teacher abolutely nothing. I wonder if the Lutherns still read this stuff?

river8101

07/04/2000 09:06:17 PM

Cont'd-- You believe as you want. That's fine, as long as you don't force others to accept your beliefs. If you feel more secure believing that the Bible is a mirror of God's heart and not man's heart, do so. You say that "God is waiting for us to CHOOSE another course, HIS course." (Is God also a man?) There are millions of people who choose good rather than evil, sacrifice rather than cruelty, and they don't neccessarily believe in the God you believe in or perhaps the don't believe in God at all. Doesn't make them evil. "The reward of a good life is a good life itself." If you believe that you'll be saved 'if you believe in Christ' no matter what you do, then you have no real reason to behave yourself, do you? That 'being saved' stuff, is sure a good excuse for doing wrong and getting away with it.

river8101

07/04/2000 09:04:47 PM

Your point is not valid. All people are not wicked, whether they are believers in God or not. Some people have reasons for their wickedness and some people are mentally ill and do wicked things. Has nothing to do with a Supreme Being. Christians who are true believers have done terribly wicked things, and others who are Christians and believers have done good things. This is true of all religious people and non-religious people, including atheists and agnostics. God has nothing to do with it. You are what you are, with or without God.

Thummin

07/04/2000 07:08:47 PM

The Bible is a mirror to man's heart which David says is wicked above all things. It is man who has done these attrocities to man; God is waiting for us to CHOOSE another course; his course. The Bible is a book of symbols and metaphor and not history and this will be revealed in the years to come. When I read the BIBLE today, even the OT with its tirades against man and the evil in the world, and how God will destroy evil, I see it as the blessing of a father who would rid his child of a horrible disease that lies within the childs own bossom. God is going to execute the evil but not the evil people OUT THERE, but the EVIL tendancies within our own soul. God loves all the same and all will receive this inner cleansing; Shouldnt we say thank you even now that he wont leave us sick and orphaned and dead in sin-missing the mark of life? I say we thank him ahead of time and our process will run smoother.

river8101

07/04/2000 05:32:02 PM

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

river8101

07/04/2000 05:12:22 PM

Your test, therefore, is invalid and actually unnecessary. Why should I have to pray (for a sign, as it were) to believe in the existance of God, when I believe the whole world around me, the billions of planets, stars and galaxies is God. The Bible is simply this or that culture's view of God by those who wrote it--as they understood the universe and their human condition at the time. This does not invalidate one's need or belief in a higher power, but explains it.

river8101

07/04/2000 05:11:52 PM

Everyone defines God slightly differently. So (may I add) does the Bible. I may define God as an intelligence or some kind of natural force, but never a human being. (That's a human error, and human arrogance). Man created the God you speak of in 'his' image. I doubt it was the other way around. Anyway, has nothing to do with afterlife. We are highly developed organisms which have evolved over billions of years. When organisms die, they no longer exist, though other organisms may take their place. We live on in our children. We are (in a way) our children. I disagree, with your definition of scientific proof. I believe anything can eventually be scientifically proved, we just haven't done it all. But, we're getting there.

Travis

07/04/2000 04:22:04 PM

river8101- For your sake, I hope your right. To be honest, I will pray that you may come to realize that not all things are tangible, and that God is as real as the screen you are looking at. You are not going to have scientific proof of everything in this world. If you are right and I am wrong, then if you were to pray a short prayer to God that he show you some sign that he exists, you would get no answer. Why don't you try my test?

Thummin

07/04/2000 11:44:49 AM

According to Physics there is no proof you exist. What is proof of "beliefs, thoughts, desires, imaginings, feelings" things that make us human? They exist because we exist, yet NO ONE CAN SEE these with their physical eyes. I have said it 100 times our "beliefs",feelings, desires, etc, dont amount to a hill of beans, and neither will PROOF someone lived 2000 years ago, TRANSFORM the human heart. The only thing which will change us is if God visits us again and this is the REAL PURPOSE of religion. To prepare us for the finishing touches of a creator who is NOT DONE with his creation; proof? they are still so CONFUSED about life. The only relevant question is,WHERE ARE WE GOING WITH THIS THING??? If we are not going anywhere with it, God be merciful and let us forget it. I pray, God finish what you started, because we need resolution about you. I know he is real..my vision was not because I was desperate, but because The BIBLE says that is HOW GOD APPEARS to us in this end time, HIS CHOICE entirely.

river8101

07/04/2000 10:15:42 AM

There is absolutely no proof that Jesus was the son of God, or God. None, nada, except a few visions by some desperate people. After-life is most probably a fantasy for those who cannot bear the thought they may simply no longer exist. Personally, I haven't a clue if there is one or not. The reason Christianity grew so fast, is because the Roman Empire was collapsing, that most of the common people had nothing, felt hopeless. The idea spread by the early Christians that the world (as they knew it) would soon end, there would be an afterlife (especially for the poor and believers) was a 'godsend' and it spread like wildfire. Constantine, saw it as a way to unify Constantinople with the falling Roman Empire and used it. It worked. But that doesn't mean there's any truth to it. Myth is one of the best known ways to capture people's beliefs.

Darrill

07/04/2000 09:41:01 AM

cont... Then there is 'religious prejudice' As shown by your statement of: "I see Jews as lost souls just like every other non-believer.". Well, there are fanatics in most, if not all the worlds religions who consider anyone of another faith system in that same mannor. The "O.T." has alot of racial, religious prejudice within it. Which is where Matt. 23 comes in.

Darrill

07/04/2000 09:40:26 AM

Travis said on 7/3/00 6:08:45 PM: >"Darrill- ...Everything you are telling me I am is going against my faith as a Christian."< Travis if you wouldn't mind, re-read my post to you, you will see part of it in quotes, (" "). That part within the quotes, (" ") is what you said on: 6/30/00 6:52:48 PM . No where in my post did I mention Germany. (Btw, I always heard Hitler was Roman Catholic. But that is beside the point.) Now about the 'racist thing'. Just because a person has some ancestors who were racist doesn't mean that person is also racist. Racism is something that is taught. Something many parents 'pass on to their children'. It has been/is done in the home, and even in 'church'. Continued next post

river8101

07/04/2000 09:05:41 AM

Your message board "What do you believe?" is far to narrow (not in scope, neccessarily but in dimension. I must carefully go back and forth for each line to read it, which after a few tries, I decided not to do. Suggest you either widen it, or let us widen it with our mouse. Thank you.

Travis

07/03/2000 06:08:44 PM

Darrill- What you are saying is down right stupid. I am not downplaying what happened in Germany, but you cannot sit there and tell me that I am anti-semitic because some nutjob in the 30s and 40s killed millions of Jews and proclaimed to be Prodestant. Just like there is no way that African Americans can tell me that I am racist because some of my ancestors were. Everything you are telling me I am is going against my faith as a Christian. As for your question about Matthew 23, I consider that something that is relevent to us. I am not sure how the topic applies to this chapter. Matthew 23 is talking about the Religious leaders that are proclaiming the truth, and are really hippocrites and leading people astray.

Darrill

07/03/2000 10:18:22 AM

"Regardless of your conspiracy theories about christian anti-semitism, I see Jews as lost souls just like every other non-believer. I am of the firm belief that God has us on a need to know basis. If in God's plan he has something in mind for jews his chosen people, then so be it. Based on the New Testament, you are not saved. That does not mean the same thing as 'you should hate Jews.'" Ah, but Travis, the "N.T." has been used as a means of anti-semitism for a long time. It started with Rome and continued with the Protestants. "We" seem to think it had to do with the Jews of 2,000 years ago, and of today. While disregarding the spirituality of His message as being directed at >"our" own souls<. How many people really consider the spirituality of Matthew 23 as something relevant to US? To "shine the light" of Matt. 23 into the darkness within ourselves. Our own spiritual unrighteousness.

Travis

07/02/2000 07:35:56 PM

Thummin- I must admit that you are correct. And yes I did miss a big point in your post. You are right when you say that knowledge about him will do no good. Only the experience in and with him will set us free. The only way anyone can obtain this is to talk to God. I quess maybe I got a little overzealous in spreading the Gospel. This is totally off the subject, but I just got baptized today! However, don't get the idea that I haven't had my faith in crist for a long time.

Thummin

07/02/2000 12:21:50 PM

Travis, God bless you. One thing is for sure, the spirit of truth will lead to ALL truth or we will never know it. You missed a big big part of my POST. I have no problem with what happened 2000 years ago, Im saying its almost become MOOT in this day and age. WHY? Because it is TIME for man to INTERNALIZE what CHRIST is and what he taught and what he DID. If we do not let it TRANSFORM us it wont matter in the end what he did. All things were given so man could RECONNECT to GOD again, not so we could TALK and debate ABOUT God for eternity. God knows who he is but we need to know him. God said his people PERISH for lack of knowledge (of him) not of carnal knowledge, knowledge of good and evil. We need to LET CHRIST return in us and UPROOT that tree, and let the tree of life dominate. It will not suffice to argue about Jesus anymore. It is a waste of time. The time of antiChrist will soon be over and people will wake up out of their sleep and see that God does not want us to analyze him but UTILIZE.

Travis

07/01/2000 10:28:07 PM

Part II- It is clear by Daniel's prophecy down to the hour when the messiah's Ministry would be announced. This guarantees that the messiah came somewhere around 27AD. So, who do you think it was? How can you still be waiting for the messiah if prophecy tells you that he has already come. Thummin, you are correct about one thing. The bible predicts that getting the majority of Jews to accept Jesus of Nazareth as the messiah is futile. You cannot say I didn't try.

Travis

07/01/2000 10:23:30 PM

Dovidl- You had me stumped for a second. At least until I did research. The prophecy you refer to in Isaiah have not been fulfilled yet. This is where your interpretation leads you to believe that the Messiah should have flipped the world to a 180. These prochecies are for what is told in Daniel as the 70th seven. I am sure that you are familiar with the prophecy. Thummin, my answer to this also applies to you. You are expecting the messiah to turn everything around at his first coming. Daniel is very clear about the prophecy. The other thing is this. Thummin, you admit that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies. Do you know the odds of all 300+ prophecies being fulfilled by one man. It is something like 84 with 123 zeros after it.

Thummin

07/01/2000 12:30:14 PM

TRAVIS It isnt that Jesus didnt fulfill the prophecies, but his fulfillment didnt change the rest of mankind who believe in him. AS I have laborously been trying to explain at neaseum, Christians must let Jesus' fulfillment of prophecies become Their own. They too must become ONE with GOD AS HE WAS.Is it good enough that he did it all if it doesnt bring God's fulfillment on earth? I show plainly in scripture how Jesus FULFILLS THESE THINGS IN US at an appointed time, in Torah,the Choq or VISITATION. All religions are prepared for this visitation; It is the FIERY FLYING SERPENT of Kabbalah; Jesus, the "SERPENT lifted UP" and the HINDUS, KUNDALINI; Buddha "under" the BO TREE. An INNER EXPERIENCE we must have to understand the SCRIPTURES AS THEY DID. Are all chosen to have this experience? maybe, but all must be CALLED to grasp it and try to understand it in this day and age if they want to follow Gods unfolding plan

Travis

07/01/2000 01:00:02 AM

Dovidl- The place that I got the information on the religious beliefs of his parents was a public school textbook, and we all know how wrong those things can be. Don't give me this conspiracy theory crap about the public school systems because they are so liberal that they won't allow prayer in school. Regardless, you cannot convince me that I am anti-semetic. I am a student of both the old and new testament. The Jews are Gods chosen people. About your prophecy, please give me the same opportunity that I have given you. I will get back to you.

noseington

06/30/2000 09:06:19 PM

Rabbi - Do Jews reject Jesus or the myth created by Paul and his cronies.? Did Jesus ever claim to be the Messiah explicitly? Did he claim to be the natural son of God? The term "son of God" was quite common in those days. In his beatitudes Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God". So are all the peacemakers blasphemers and false Messiahs? The failures are not in the message of Jesus but in ourselves for not following his example. If you apply Occams razor and strip away all the nonsense of the church(s) over the centuries, you will find that Jesus had the roadmap to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

Dovidl

06/30/2000 08:29:03 PM

Travis, I thought there was something odd about your posts but when I saw that old story about Hitler being Jewish I knew I was right. That is an old anti-Semitic ploy to try to convince people that "the Jews did it to themselves." Here's a prophecy you can explain "the lion will lie down with the lamb" or maybe "they will beat their swords into plow-shares" or "the earth will be as full of the knowledge of G-d as the sea is with water." And how come no-one has responded to my issues other than to say I'm wrong or I missed the messiah? I had hoped for a higher level of discourse. Have a good Shabbat.

Travis

06/30/2000 06:52:48 PM

I still have seen no one show me a messianic prophecy that was not met by Jesus of Nazareth. Regardless of your conspiracy theories about christian anti-semitism, I see Jews as lost souls just like every other non-believer. I am of the firm belief that God has us on a need to know basis. If in God's plan he has something in mind for jews his chosen people, then so be it. Based on the New Testament, you are not saved. That does not mean the same thing as 'you should hate Jews.'

im4M

06/30/2000 03:02:02 PM

Programmer, glitch alert. It's unlikely anybody bothers to read anything that requires scrolling a half inch to the right for each line. Thank you for shopping at Kmart.

Thummin

06/30/2000 12:18:28 PM

If the Rambam saw Christianity (and Muslims) as a preperation for Kingdom of God to come to earth as it is in heaven, then what has kept many Jews from seeing it??? The spirit of Moshiach has not come to them as it has to the Rambam and the sages. Only the spirit of Moshiach can lighten the inner man to the truth. Here God alone has control over who sees and doesnt see and who is given this wonderful gift of the LIGHT of Moshiach. Jesus said only the Father could reveal Moshiach. you cant force people to believe in him or to accept him. He is a gift of the father to his sons. Moshiach is actually the making of a son (Yechida). So the last comment, "you tak Jesus, I'll take God" is great. YES TAKE GOD. For only if you take God, who is the GOD of Israel and the Jew, will you see and understand anything at all he wants to reveal about both religions. There is ONLY DIVISION without God. UNITY is Gods trademark, for he is ONE and his name is ONE.

Thummin

06/30/2000 12:12:57 PM

Yes the idea, the vain idea, the horribly deceived idea that God would get rid of one group in favor over another has permeated Christianity, but its roots are in Judaism...ie "chosen", favorite, we are Gods and we alone, concept. No one understands chosen and if they did they wouldnt want to be chosen. But I have to say, NO GROUP will survive but Gods Kingdom. YHVH willl be KING in that day over the whole earth. HURRY God hurry. WE need you so much. Please oh God come back to us all. I scream, let every man do that for which he is called or chosen to do. Dont waste another minute. WE need our KING revealed.

Thummin

06/30/2000 12:09:32 PM

I see the cross today as the "SIGN" the Jews are waiting for since the CROSS is the symbol of matter. It is the 50th gate of Pentecost to get to the UPPER WORLDS. You cant get to the DIVINE till you die to the beast. The door was a very painful entrance for me. I Only wish I had understood some of these things beforehand. Yet no one talked about them cause no one understands them.

Thummin

06/30/2000 12:06:41 PM

The biggest comment which is the most touchy to me is "only saved through Jesus". I have to qualify here that this was nonsense to me as a Christian. I couldnt ever believe that although I clung to Jesus with all my heart and mind. I still believed God had to be able to save outside of Jesus, especially because Paul said all Israel will be saved. How could that be if they were going to hell without Jesus. NO I never bought that,but then I had my Jewish experience and whoaaa. (p.s. I didnt believe in the cross as a significant point to belabor either).I had no REAL opinion about the cross but ot IGNORE it. Well when I saw Jesus on the cross during Yom Kippur of 92 in a vision and it saved me from that terrible dark anihilation I was experiencing from Tisha B'Av to Yom Kippur, I understood what Jesus meant about the serpent lifted up and how all eyes will see him and MOURN for him as a mother (Israel) mourns for her ONLY BEGOTTEN SON (YECHIDA). I will explain that more later.

Thummin

06/30/2000 12:01:31 PM

The comment about Jesus not being interested in pubic justice is a little bit off since the last 2000 years have been about his teachings and that includes political interpretations. I see far too much interference in the public rather than too little. Jesus was interested in his FATHERS KINGDOM, the malkut of God. He came to bring us the WAY to that Kingdom and how the law will be fulfilled in that Kingdom by becoming one with him as he is ONE with his father. NO more presumptuous than any Rabbi has been in teaching Talmud or Halacha. Jesus came first to the LOST tribes of Israel because they were LOST from Judaism. He has been bringing Israel back to God for a long time. Israel had to become as numerous as the sands of the sea and stars in the heavens. God kept Judah at home with this unbelievable BURDEN of keeping the law till Shiloah comes to the individual so the LAW could WITNESS to them. Without Jews, there would be no second witness or law of God to help us. God Bless the Jew.

Thummin

06/30/2000 11:55:59 AM

The next comment I am addressing is how Judaism has kept clean boundaries between the human and divine. Yes you have and that is your calling. To keep the law-chaqaq between your feet-foundation, till Shiloah comes. But, you have overdone it too as the Christian has presumed way too much about the DIVINE in their "vain imaginations". In your desire not to be presumptous about God, you have ignored spiritual leanings which might have helped you find God sooner by doing teshuvah sooner. When you wait for mankind to give you the OK< you are not behaving as Abraham and the prophets. The reason Judaism is losing many to other "cults" as you call it, is because they want SPIRITUAL food, and not just the human regulations without spiritual understanding. I read your Torah Parshas and weep over the deep profound spirituality hidden in them. I talk to Jews and they don't see these things. They only see what they are TOLD to see.

Thummin

06/30/2000 11:47:26 AM

My heart breaks over the innocent lives lost over the thousands of years but after my experience, I not only know God is completely righteous in all his ways and doings,but that everyone will get their just rewards. Here is where I see the Jew as confused as the Christian. The christian has trouble seeing how limited his views of the BIBLE really are and the Jew has trouble seeing how little control they believe their God has over this world. You can't believe God is all powerful and yet blame the whole world for everything when God is the creator. God is calling his ISRAEL to TESHUVAH NOW. He has been doing so for awhile but this is really the time and this is really the hour. REPENT so you can pick up the pieces of all those who will need your absolute light in the millineum to come. Dont waste another minute. Jesus only did what he heard and saw his father do, he said. God is in control over Jesus.

Thummin

06/30/2000 11:42:04 AM

The Rabbis who you say criticised Jesus who deftly expounded the prophets, sort of made me laugh a bit. I am ashamed. Sorry.OF course Jesus expounded the prophets and the law and MOSES and the TORAH. He embodied them in his life to SHOW THEIR UNITY. God is one and his name is ONE. Jesus more than any other showed this unity of where God is taking us all. TO BE ONE with is law. I have room for the "second coming" comment here too. He is coming. He came to me in 92 on Yom Kippur. God said "after two days" I will lift them up (Jesus said IF I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me) and God said the third day they will STAND in my sight. I was lifted up with the serpent lifted up.IT is the crucifixtion the Christians are always talking about. IT is the owth, sign, signal,banner, NEC God lifts up against the ENEMY. THE yetzer hora or evil inclination.

Carlisle

06/30/2000 11:41:22 AM

Part II In that spirit we rely less on the opinions of others, and more on the direct experience with God. This is the foundation on which faith rests and is strong. As a Buddhist monk once said, there is nothing wrong with theory except that it is endless. I cannot prove to you I am right. I can only suggest that you prove to yourself if I am right or wrong. Enter this with an open mind and I am confident that God will do the rest. Thank you.

Carlisle

06/30/2000 11:40:47 AM

Polish Celt - I am compelled to restate that what ever the backgrounds of the Nazi's is or was, is no statement about the truth of Christianity. No serious study of scripture could lead one to conclude that we must hate Jews. In fact as others have pointed out, Jews are God's chosen people. As such I have a great respect for their place in God's plan. As I am sure most serious Christians would. A further study of scripture, both old and new testaments would also reveal that while we may witness to others about our faith, we are fully cognizant of the fact that not all will accept it. The fact that our message is rejected by most is in fact consistent with what the Bible teaches. This includes rejection by our Jewish brothers. When you know that we see it as the Fathers job to save, and ours only to witness, perhaps you will see the true spirit through which we enter this debate. For those who do not believe to appeal to the same God we are all trying to reach. continued...

Thummin

06/30/2000 11:37:53 AM

When Jesus withered the fig tree, it is symbolic of him destroying the TREE of knowledge of good and evil and saying, after he does this NO FRUIT will ever grow on it again. Adam made aprons of those leaves but they were temporary. John the BABTIST said the MESSIAH would PLUCK up the TREE from its root and Isaiah 14 shows us from this tree of the adder would come forth a fiery flying serpent. Jesus said when YOU SEE the serpent lifted up (as Moses held it up in the wilderness) you will know I am who I said I am. I saw that serpent on Yom Kippur of 92. I know exactly who Jesus is but no one will really know him till that moment. THAT IS THE way of the KNOWING.

Thummin

06/30/2000 11:34:49 AM

When Jesus said to hate your life, he meant the "beastly soul" or the mark of the beast which Jews call the behemot soul. If you love this animal soul more than attachment to your creator-dveikut, you wont find it. God wants us to love him with all our heart soul mind and strength and this means more than your own life. TRUE CHAYA or LIFE is not this body alone but spiritual understanding of the LIGHT of God, his Torah.

Thummin

06/30/2000 11:32:01 AM

Joel 2:8 explains how Israel will fall on the sword but it wont hurt them, at least physically. Ezekiel 5:12, 11:8, 21:3, 35:3 all talk about the God of Israel and his great glittering sword coming after his people. Amos 4:10 shows us how God has come after Israel with the sword and still they have not returned to him. If the BIBLE is antisemetic, it is so more from the OT point of view than the NT, yet Jews understand their religion so they dont think about the antisemetic remarks God makes all the time. Well I understand now God is more interested in our soul than our traditions, but only so he can bring true righteousness to the earth and then we can enjoy the traditions in truth. Jesus told his disciples they only needed these two swords (I know to be the OT and NT) in the garden of Gathsemane which means wine-press and olive oil press. Both wine=mystery in Judaism and oil-light is necessary to understand these swords.

Thummin

06/30/2000 11:24:58 AM

My desire to bring unity to Christians and Jews comes from a command from God before he took me through my Jewish experience. While walking in the park praying in 1991, I heard a distinct order; "bring all things back to me". Well I know when God speaks he rarely explains himself and I had no idea what that meant, but I said sure!!! That was the beginning of my end. Now more than 8 years later, I know he meant bring the Bible back to him and get it out of the hands of the Sheperds who have neither SEEN nor STOOD in the great day of YHVH, which I have. Ezekiel 27. The great day of YHVH brings BOTH darkness and light and it also brings the sword. The sword Jesus talked about bringing to the earth is the DOUBLE-edged sword, the OT and NT. It cuts both ways and it is what divides good from evil and darkness from light. It cuts down and uproots the tree of knowledge, so the TREE of LIFE can grow right out of this root. I will explain further with BIBLE verses.

Thummin

06/30/2000 11:06:40 AM

Hi Mr. Wolpe I've seen you on "Mysteries of the Bible",which didnt reveal any mysteries by the way,but only points out how little man comprehends the Bible. I have been dealing with orthodox Jews, and all the various denominations that spring from Judaism and Christianity combined, for 3 years. 8 years ago I had a "Jewish experience" unknown as such for five more years. I wont discuss this here but I do on my websites; http://Network54/Hide/Forum6503 and 6505. I find it irresponsible to denounce someones beliefs or argue them without clarifying my points, so I will take everyone of your arguements against Jesus and give you actual rebutals. My only goal is to bring peace-shalom between the two religions, not to convert a Jew. I am a rare non Jew, who has had a Jewish experience, and yet cant convert to this beautiful religion, because no one on this planet understands GOD the right way.

PolishCelt

06/30/2000 09:55:23 AM

Travis, Condemnation of the Jews in one form or another is also a characteristic of many liturgical forms throughout Christian history. You can look that up.

PolishCelt

06/30/2000 09:51:59 AM

Uh, Travis (part II) The Jewish expectation of a Messiah, expressed in the Davidic Covenant, and in the writings of First Isaiah, refer to an earthly kingdom of salvation and justice. You must understand the Jewish mindset (which I may well not fully understand myself) That means HERE ON EARTH a kingdom of justice and peace to which there will be no end. Because that kingdom has not come, and the so-called Body of Christ has acted in anything but a just manner, Jews are very leary of calling Jesus the Messiah. Salvation of the soul in Heaven is a Greek concept, not a Hebrew one.

PolishCelt

06/30/2000 09:45:24 AM

Uh, Travis- Millions of Christian parents were teaching their children to hate and fear Jews up to and including the early parts of the Twentieth Century. Read the writings of Martin Luther regarding Jews. The seeds of the Holcaust are there. Hitler declared himself an "absolute Christian." His parents were Christians. There is some speculation that one of his grandparents was Jewish, but that has never been proven.

Willlong

06/30/2000 09:29:45 AM

Y'shua (Jesus in Greek) Stated that 'No one comes to the Father, but through me'. But previously to this, in John, He also states 'No one comes to me, but that the Father has sent him'. I find it interesting that some gentiles forget one of these quotes.

Travis

06/30/2000 01:25:56 AM

BlueMoon- The reason I don’t accept the LDS Religion is they believe that God spoke to Joseph Smith because he saw that the world had changed since Jesus and some new laws needed to be implemented. That means that God made a mistake, GOD DOESN'T MAKE MISTAKES. What doesn't flow with the New Testament. I see the Rabbi is making some pretty weak arguments. He says none of the prophecy surrounding the messiah has been fulfilled. Show me ONE. He says Jesus wasn't moral. Read the text surrounding the references and you will find the reason he did things. He blames Christians for the Nazi Holocaust stating that their parents were Christian. If I remember correctly, Adolph Hitler’s parents and grandparents were Jewish. I say that his conspiracy theory is pretty flaky. Imagine that millions of parents are all telling their children long before Hitler that the Jews need to be killed.

im4M

06/29/2000 08:12:11 PM

As a Catholic, I was properly taught that Jews are not automatically hellbound. You are our fathers, we honor you by not insulting you. God favors you and God is not fickel. It is not for us to apologize for others, or dare to dictate to God. The scenario I heard in 1962 by fr Carroll was this: A man dies. He never believed. He deserves hell. Don't we all? Do we understand God's Justice and Mercy? Impossible, it's God's attribute. Suppose the man, on dying, does see his beloved Messiah, and it's Jesus. Suppose the man embraces Jesus ,as Jesus forgives him. Catholics do say there is eternal hell, but it's not to us to decree it's denizens. We believe Jesus when he said about binding and loosing. Look at the dreck we put up with from those who demand formal excommunication, even after they have excommunicated themselves.

angelsvn

06/29/2000 10:46:09 AM

And to Wolpe: Your perspective of Jesus is skewed. Reading your post about Christians, it seems you think we are ignorant of everything other then our stilted dogma. I'd like to begin a dialogue to refute your arguments. Is there a way I can e-mail you? Your post about Muslims venerating Jesus is silly. What matter is that when they say Christian's version is wrong. That Jesus wasn't crucified, rather someone that looked like him did. That the source material is not reliable? What a silly, innaccurate and illogical thing to say. Do you expect to people who read your articles just don't know any better, so you can leave out things and say inaccurate things and make faulty leaps? Stop trying to deceive people just because you dislike the Christian faith, Your bias is almost sickening.

angelsvn

06/29/2000 10:36:39 AM

To Kamran: I have spent much time on the Koran and Torah -- and Hindus and Buddists religious works. And guess what? I'm still a Christian. Your point is no point at all -- in fact, that you are Muslim is probably because your family and communty was. If not, then the rare execption may be applied to all spectrums. Your post was silly and illogical. Perhaps you can read how Islam can be traced to its pagan moon-god roots. That the running around the monolith in Mecca is a pagan ritual supported in the Koran. (You may say Christians have pagan rituals, but these aren't supported in the Bible.) The source of Islam is one of the most easily seen in all of history -- and history says it is a convoluted mish-mash of ideas. And to Wolpe and his praisers -- because you meet one person who doesn't understand the trinity, and because your understandng of it is flawed, and because you dislike the idea the Messiah has come and simply missed it, doesn't mean you have all the facts.

Kamran

06/29/2000 01:51:06 AM

Most born-again Christians posting here didn't go out and research Buddhism or Islam or Judaism before making a decision about what to believe. They were looking for meaning in life and (SURPRISE) they coincidentally found that The Truth happens to be whatever is in their dominant culture or family upbringing. I am a Muslim, I've read the Hebrew Bible, the Christian Testament, the Koran, the Hindu Vedas and other religious books, and you know what guys, I'm STILL a Muslim. The idea that the Christian scriptures are actually truer than my own has never once crossed my mind. I challenge any of the Christian posters here to actually go and study the Talmud of Judaism or the Koran of Islam and then make a decision. You may still want to be Christian at the end of the day, but it least you didn't do the follow-the-flock, "my own people MUST be right", nonsense which most human beings subsist in. Peace.

Kamran

06/29/2000 01:48:51 AM

Kudos to Rabbi Wolpe for presenting an argument that Christians never hear in this Christian-dominated society-- why Jesus is not the Son of God and the Greek Testament is a not a true scripture. The saddest part of all these arguments that have been posted is that for most of the Christian posters, you would be arguing the Jewish point of view had you been born in Rabbi Wolpe's family. Your religion was determined by arbitrary chance of birth, just like most everybody else. Religion for most human beings is defined by their family heritage and cultural identification.

Dovidl

06/28/2000 11:37:35 PM

Travis, I am not denying the messiah the Torah promises. I do not believe, however, that he has come yet. And where does he come from if not from G-d? I do not wish to impugn your Bible, just to explain why most Jews do not accept it. Yes, I have read the Gospels and saw nothing to change my mind. And Blue Moon, I don't think Rabbi Wolpe believes Jesus is the messiah either.

BlueMoon

06/28/2000 06:15:19 PM

David Wolpe isn't blindly denying Jesus, or treating the New Testament as if it were some Joe Schmoe. He's using logic. He's allowing the New Testament to rationally convince HIM that Jesus is the Messiah. Not first believe his Christian peers, then hunt for peieces of evidence to support his faith. He's using the same avenue mainstream Christians use, when they explain why they do not accept Mormonism. It's illogical, doesn't flow with history, and overall, doesn't fit. Thus, they don't accept the new Book (of Mormon). Well, Jews have the same thoughts. They don't accept the new Book (New Testament). Get it? :) Todd

Travis

06/28/2000 04:34:36 PM

Dovidl- In your comments you are denying the messiah that your own Torah predicts. Even if Jesus of Nazareth wasn't the messiah (he was), you are saying that you need no messiah. I urge you not to think of the New Testament as someones fictional account of some Joe Schmoe as the messiah. Have you ever read any of the Gospels?

Carlisle

06/28/2000 10:27:16 AM

Part IV Its like immorality. As long as we are immoral by ourselves and no one is getting hurt, is it really immoral? Because we position ourselves as the centre of our own universe, many would say no. The fact is though it is not our universe. Which is why all of us here seek answers beyond those we can articulate using human understanding of fairness, just laws etc. The simple fact that the innocent die could kill the concept of a loving creator all together but it does not. Because we know instnctively it would seem that we don't have all of the cards in front of us. For all we iknow the innocent are thanking God for taking them from this awful place sooner rather than later. Feel free to mail me at any time, your comments are enlightned and thought provoking - Thank you (carlisle@beliefnet.com)

Carlisle

06/28/2000 10:13:27 AM

Oversoul Part III Forgive me if I sound like I assume that people who do not accept Christ live a life full of guilt. As a one time student of Buddhism I was very free of guilt and know that not all people do. You did say however that once a year Jews reflect on past sins and ask for forgiveness. Is the nature of this repentance then ceremonial only? Or do they feel true repentance. To seek forgiveness and yet disagree that it should be necessary in the first place seems a little dishonest. (I know this is not what you are saying directly, take this as a point of debate only). To seek forgiveness must be, if it is true, to be in agreement that one has missed the mark, so to speak. The glory of God is much like my example of my children. He doesn't expect us to make the grade all the time. He is obviously though teaching us something about His nature and the nature of existence beyond this life. The lessons we learn are for here and here after.

Carlisle

06/28/2000 09:57:13 AM

Your point about Castro changing His laws has implications too. The unchangeable nature of God is what is so wonderous and reassuring about Him. If to accommodate us He were to change the rules, then which rules would He change. Whose opinion would He suit. One could argue that we could not therefore put our trust in anything God says, as He may change His mind at a later date. Oversoul - Part II In human terms it seems inconceivable that one would write an eternal plan that says my way or the highway. In this area I cannot speak for God. But obviously I believe that this is the case. However my thankfulness is due to the fact that I see that His way is the absolute best way for us.

Carlisle

06/28/2000 09:56:00 AM

Oversoul- Part I What an excellent debate we have here! I disagree with those that say there is no fruit to this discussion. As a committed Christian I totally enjoy challenges to my faith. For if any faith is to stand it must be able to stand up to close scrutiny and challenge. I cannot disagree that it is like a single party election. After all He made the universe and the rules. In human terms this seems unfair. Especially if we use Castro as an example of the potential of such an idea. The point then has to surround the nature of God. Does He or does He not have our best interests in mind. Is it best for us to be walking His way. Obviously I believe it is.

Oversoul

06/28/2000 08:20:46 AM

(cont.) How does this prove my point? If we need Jesus to bridge the gap between us and God (in order to avoid eternal damnation) then again, we need Jesus in order to be saved from God himself, or more to your comments, God's justness. God's own constriction (being bound by his justness) is what you are saying makes him need to provide us with a messiah. This is circular logic. Once again, I reference my example with Castro.

Oversoul

06/28/2000 08:20:25 AM

Travis- Thanks for responding. Your comments about my statement "What is God saving us from?" only continue to prove my point. To summarize your statements, God made laws for humanity to follow, God is just, he is bound by his own justice (or maybe justness?) and therefore he must keep us separate from himself when we break his laws. Next you say that Jesus' life and death constitute the ultimate sacrifice, the means by which to bridge the gap between humanity and God, caused by humanity breaking God's laws, and God separating himself from us because he is just and bound therefore to do so. Then you reiterate your point that God is blocked from us because he is just. This means that God's own justness is something that limits him.

Dovidl

06/28/2000 01:08:39 AM

I would like to respond to those who feel the New Testament answers all questions. First, the main reason I don't believe it is in the statement "His blood is on us and upon our children". What kind of parent would say that? Second, in reference to the dozens of prophecies that were fulfilled - anyone can write a book whose characters fulfill any kind of prophecy. Why don't Jews need Jesus? Because "G-d so loved the Jews that He didn't send anyone, He came Himself" (Mt Sinai). You may say we can't approach Him because we have violated the Torah but don't you think He knew that? Our salvation is just as Divine as yours but we need no intermediary.

Travis

06/27/2000 11:03:52 PM

Oversoul- You posed the question in an earlier post; "What is God saving us from?" The old testiment states multiple times that God is a Just god. When he makes laws and people break them, he is bound by his justice which keeps us as people away from him. That is where the messiah comes in. God put Jesus of Nazareth on earth to make the ultimate sacrifice. In a perfect being dying for the sins of the imperfect, it becomes the bridgeway to God. Think of it this way. God is reaching out to you with all of his force. The only thing in his way is his being a just god. He cannot change the rules and reach to you because that would declare that God made a mistake, THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. Jesus dying on that cross allowed him to separate the sins from the person and forgive them. Without the sins attached to the person, God can be close to you.

dwweiner

06/27/2000 10:48:15 PM

Part III One last point on your primary reason paragraph. Just because a person says he/she is a Christian proves nothing about that person. I venture to say that we could find 10 (any number will do) people who say that they are Christians who have very different ideas of what they mean. It is possible that all those who have perpetrated attrocities on fellow humans in the name of Christianity may be just the ones that Jesus was speaking about when He said that at the judgement, when many would say to Him, Lord; He would say to them that He never knew them. I respectfully request your response to these comments.

dwweiner

06/27/2000 10:46:27 PM

Part II We humans are quite limited beings. We do give a great deal of respect to the 'wisest' of our kind. And, yet, how does that person compare to the God of the bible who is able to create all of this with a word? Just because a majority of us thinks one way or the other does not prove the truth or falsity of that position. A majority of His contemporaries rejecting Jesus really doesn't prove anything. But for the grace of God, I probably would have been right there with the majority.

dwweiner

06/27/2000 10:45:23 PM

Rabbi Wolpe, Part I I enjoyed reading your article, 'Why Jews don't Accept Jesus.' You made several key points. I would like to respond to the first to see if we can increase mutual understanding. You give the primary reason (my paraphrase) as the world is still a mess after His death. True. As a human being I too would like for the world to be a better place. But, as Isaiah said, God's ways are not our ways, etc. Just because something does not fit our logic does not mean that it doesn't fit God's. I am not aware of anything in the bible that says the world is still a mess or that we still have suffering because it rejected Jesus. (My reading is that sin is the cause.) Can you provide any biblical reference to this idea?

Oversoul

06/27/2000 07:39:12 PM

brooxter- First of all, I did not make any statements about not believing in Christ because I didn't witness him resurrected. I addressed specific Christian theological points that I disagree with, none of which you have addressed. And your jump from Martha to Roman history to Hitler does not make sense. Rather than address any of my points, you have just made statements of faith and doctrine. What do I think will happen when I die? I don't know what will happen. But I don't think I will spend eternity being punished or rewarded by a petty cosmic tyrant who gives me two choices-convert or suffer for ever. Let's discuss the reasons that Jews specifically, and by my extension non-Jews, do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. Please address specifically the reasons Rabbi Wolpe and myself gave for not accepting the Christian view of Jesus.

brooxter

06/27/2000 07:04:29 PM

My point being, we can all discuss, argue, disagree, whatever. What do you think will happen when you die? If you answer honestly, you must address eternity in your answer. You must also admit that you live by choices. I believe God gave us the ability to make choices, good or bad (we were created in his image). We live by our choices. That is not blackmail or coercion or anything. You live by the choices you make. And if Martha lived 2000 years ago and "witnessed" Jesus alive after crucifiction (the crucufiction IS recorded in Roman history), why do you doubt an actual eyewitness? If that is the case you would have to doubt that Adolph Hitler lived, you never witnessed him. This choice, and all choices are given to us by God to make. Make the right one.

brooxter

06/27/2000 06:47:03 PM

I believe Jesus is God's own son, born of a virgin, died on the cross, was raised by God on the 3rd day, lived with us for 40 days after resurection, ascended to heaven, will return in the same way, and saved my soul.

Oversoul

06/27/2000 06:27:28 PM

Part IIIFinally, I disagree with your response to my comment about eternal punishment for not picking the right religion. You assume that people who don't accept Christ live a "life full of guilt, conviction, trying to make the grade, continual sacrifice etc." Speaking for myself, I can tell you that is not my experience. Typically, Christianity's big sell has been "Accept Christ or burn in Hell." Now, certainly not all Christians feel that way, but I have seen posts today from several people who do, and my own personal experience echoes that feeling. What this concept does is reduce Christianity to a religion in which one converts to avoid being punished. Again, that's blackmail. And these reasons, which PolishCelt sums up with the comment about Jews and Christians speaking different languages, are why many people are not Christian. Please understand I am not attacking you-but rather trying to engage in a debate, in the hopes that we might learn from each other. Thanks.

Oversoul

06/27/2000 06:26:55 PM

Part II To your point on God sending his son as the ultimate sacrifice: the point I am trying to make is, what is God saving us from? Think about it-the only answer is from God! If the most powerful being in the universe wants to save us from damnation (which he instituted) then allowing his son to be crucified to "save us" from his own torture seems a little backward. If Fidel Castro (who is the absolute ruler of Cuba) did a similar thing to prevent thieves from going to the gas chamber, instead of simply changing a law he'd instituted, we'd label him a murderer.

Oversoul

06/27/2000 06:26:18 PM

Part I carlisle- Thank you for responding! Finally, a respectable debate. I am not sure what the laws you are referencing are, could you elaborate? And I disagree with your remarks about free will. It's comparable to voting in a Communist election. If all the candidates are of the same party and espouse the same things, then there really is no meaningful choice. The same holds for your explanation of free will. If my choice is to follow Christ or suffer eternal punishment, that's not a choice-that's blackmail.

PolishCelt

06/27/2000 05:56:15 PM

Judging from the discussion presented here, I can only conclude sadly that Jacob Neusner is correct: there is no Christian Jewish dialogue because Christians and Jews are speaking different languages. If you understand religion as a kind of cultural language, then it is extremely clear that Christians are NOT speaking Hebrew. This is very sad, because it suggests that Christians are abusing the Old Testament.

Carlisle

06/27/2000 04:42:14 PM

Finally the argument that God will punish us forever if we don't pick the right religion doesn't stand up. Especially if you are to hold Judaism up as a kinder gentler approach. First, we punish ourselves by rejecting God, He does not desire this for us. Second, from the Judaeo perspective, you can reflect and ask for forgiveness all you want, you still do not know for sure your outcome. Yet at least. Is a life full of guilt, conviction, trying to make the grade, continual sacrifice etc less cruel than a committment to Christ where all sins are forgiven, not based on our performance, but based on the grace and love of God.

Carlisle

06/27/2000 04:41:21 PM

Oversoul- Thank you for your response. First, God set up a universe that has laws. He is reliable and therefore we can rely on those laws. He also gave us free will. The choice whether or not to uphold His laws. My children know the rules, I know they will break them from time to time - did I set them up to fail? No they have free will and I expect them to use it, and understand the consequences of their actions. To see the point of the rules in the first place. Second, that God would send His own son is the most wonderous revelation of His love. If I use your tact I could say that while He may have known we would fail, He was prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice to save us if we did.

Oversoul

06/27/2000 04:21:22 PM

Add to that the idea that God created humanity, knowing that we would fail to be perfect, and then offering us only one way out of eternal punishment. And if Christ has existed for all eternity, then even before God created humans he would have known that we would need salvation. That means that God set us up to fail, and then will punish us forever if we don't pick the "right" religion. That's rather a cruel system. In modern Judaism if nothing else, once a year you spend time reflecting on your past sins, and asking for forgiveness from God and those you have sinned against. I think given the two choices it's pretty easy to see why Jews don't accept Jesus and the Christian concept of salvation.

Oversoul

06/27/2000 04:21:00 PM

carlisle- With all due respect to your beliefs, I think a point that needs to be made clearly is that the very nature of the Christian idea of salvation doesn't make sense to many Jews (or to many others). Basic Christianity teaches that Christ was born a human being, lived, and was crucified to get rid of humanity's sin. This was necessary because humanity (or more specifically, the ancient Hebrews) failed to follow all of the commandments laid out in what we now call the Old Testament. So humanity needs salvation from God's condemnation and God was so caring that he allowed his "only begotten son" to be crucified in order to give us salvation from the very system of condemnation that God himself instituted. You see, it doesn't make sense, and doesn't seem very generous.

Carlisle

06/27/2000 03:48:31 PM

Some points I must raise on the Rabbi’s input. First, any Christian anti-semitism, past or present has no basis in scripture. Therefore it makes no point about Jesus or the new testament. You also fail to mention the many Christians who, staying true to scripture attempted to help the Jews during this horrific time. Second the idea that one can only be saved through Jesus is in fact a sign of compassion greater than we as humans could ever have devised. For by your own laws, broken countless times, you would be judged before God, were it not for the Grace of God. Is it then by your own argument contrary to simple compassion and justice that only the jews would get a "out-of-jail-free" card? Finally, the appeal of Christians to the Jew is not to eradicate Judaism. You are God’s chosen people. Our only desire is for you to experience God and His Grace right now.

Carlisle

06/27/2000 03:47:30 PM

Christianity promises a personal relationship with God, through His son Jesus Christ. I found this to be the most intriguing aspect of the faith. Two years after my acceptance of Christ it is the transforming power He has made over my life that convinces me that all of the facts, which we can never really know either through historians or journalists, will one day prove the validity of the Christian view of the bible, both old and new testaments. It is the personal relationship with God, the ever growing awareness of Him that has occurred within me that shows me this path is the way to Him.

Roland

06/27/2000 12:07:44 PM

The bitter animosity and bigotry engendered by the relationship between Christian, Jew and Muslim is just one more example to me of the inherent dangers in letting mere human beings dictate to others on the nature of God. The Creator's will is expressed to us quite clearly in the awesome complexity of the cosmos. Why would the Creator put us here as part of the overall machine of the universe, and then leave us such contradictory messages to various 'prophets' over the millenia? The answer is very simple: The Creator reveals within the nature of the cosmos itself. Roland

Oversoul

06/27/2000 09:37:01 AM

Melaki- The Genesis reference does indeed say "us", or at least that is how it is translated, but "us" does not automatically equal 3 (or 3 in 1). The Jews believed for a very long time before Christ that God was one, one person, one being, just plain old one. There was no math involved in Jewish theology. There is not one place in the Old Testament where any Jew addresses God as a Trinity. And, in spite of the cryptic references to the contrary, there are no concrete places in the New Testament where Christ sits down and says "Oh, by the way I am God, and God is made up of three persons in One." The doctrine of the Trinity wasn't established until well after Christ's death.

cuckootheclock

06/27/2000 06:59:53 AM

xeb, What you have just described is: Modalism, an ancient heresy.

xeb

06/27/2000 04:53:05 AM

I quick comment on the Doctrine of Trinity- I have always used the example of a head and a body. Your head is not you, nor is your body, together they make up 1 being. God is a multi-person being, I belief, and one cannot be taken into account without the other.

Travis

06/26/2000 11:07:04 PM

Do you people understand the concept of faith? Although it is not written, I am of the belief that God has everyone on a need to know basis. There is a lot of stuff that is not written in plain english within the bible. Take Revelation for example. The father, son, and the Holy Ghost is the trinity and is ONE God. This most literate society has many doctrines and trials missing. THEY EXISTED 2000 YEARS AGO. If the US Government can lose documents in a decade, imagine what is lost from a dead empire that has 2000 years to do it in. The Roman Catholic church exists where it is because of who started it. I'm surpised it is still mistaken as Christian for all of the idol worshipping that goes on.

Jinxster

06/26/2000 08:41:33 PM

I've been of the opinion for quite some time that Jesus is not only not God, but was never even human either. There is virtually *no* evidence for his existence outside the New Testament that isn't either forged, vague or open to interpretation. Are we to expect that the most literate society in pre-industrial times kept no records of their trials? Yet no one has ever found a copy of The Empire vs. Jesus of Nazareth. All of his teachings appear to be derived from the Mysteries, and there isn't one of his sayings that hasn't been said before, and dare I say better, by one of the Greek philosophers. Even the idea of the resurrection originated in Sumer and Egypt. I will tell you now why Judaism and Christianity became separate - every Christian value is antithetical to Judaism, but in tune with Greco-Roman thought. And that, my friends, is why the Catholic Church is not based in Jerusalem.

melaki

06/26/2000 08:45:45 AM

Kamran, the bible first made mention of the concept of the trinity in Genesis. (NIV Genesis 3:11: And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of US, knowing good and evil.") So god has in the begining already made clear that the trinity did indeed exist. The concept is not new in the new testament. So therefore god did not morph into 3 entities in the New testament. he's always been in the form of 3 at least every since genesis .

cuckootheclock

06/26/2000 07:33:52 AM

These so-called "Messianic Jews" (Hebrew Christians and "Gentile" Christian converts who embrace the Jewish lifestyle while retaining their evangelical Protestant theology while rejecting their "Christian" identification) have also put out literature decrying the trend among their children of inter-marriage with "Christians." Although "Christians" share all of their beliefs about Jesus as the Messiah, they are not Jewish! More wackiness!

cuckootheclock

06/26/2000 07:11:20 AM

There are Hebrew Christians who call themselves "Messianic Jews." Not only are they Jews who have converted to an evangelical Protestant brand of theology (ranging like the evangelicals themselves from Pentecostal to Baptist and all flavors in between), but they are making "Jews" from among their Gentile hangers-on! I came across this strange fact from someone on Beliefnet who represents themself as a former Christian who is now a "practicing Messianic Jew." Further research on the Web showed that these Messianic Jews indeed have a process and rites to make it possible for a a Christian goy to become a Jew, albeit a Messianic Jew! So now you've got a bunch of Gentile Christians who have rejected the identification and "label" of Christian and demand to be recognized as Jews by both the Christian and Jewish communities! Is this a wacky country or what?

Kamran

06/25/2000 01:12:44 AM

Rabbi Wolpe's article serves to show that the vision of God in the Hebrew Bible and the Christian testament are basically contradictory. The transcendent One God of Genesis seems to have inexplicably transformed into three persons with a human component in the Greek Gospels. As a Muslim, I believe that the historical Jesus was a Hebrew prophet who never claimed to be God any more than Moses would have, and would have been horrified at his deification by later followers. Personally, I think this Islamic middle position honors the historical Jesus better than the flat rejection of Judaism or false deification of Christianity. But to each their own in matters of faith. Peace.

miriam

06/25/2000 12:17:13 AM

It's impossible to debate theology between faith traditions, not so simple even within them! All too often such discourse just becomes dangerously adversary, or at best frustrating in its futility -- with distinctions rapidly blurring between historical eras, modes of analysis, personal belief and/or feelings and collective doctrines of faith. Hindus aren't asked why they aren't Muslims, and we wouldn't have to ask why Jews aren't Christians if there wasn't a judgemental insistence on that question from the triumphalist aspect of Christianity. Study of the divergence of Christianity from Judaism in the early centuries of the Common Era is a large topic for scholarly study, as is development of both these faiths since then -- but in this context perhaps the most important issue is whether here and now there is any prospect of mutual respect and understanding. Perhaps better if Rabbi Wolpe had devoted his space to widening understanding of what Jews believe and practice, rather than what they don't.

BAshmore

06/23/2000 04:59:07 PM

Rabbi Wolpe's very first argument that the world was not redeemed after the arrrival and death of Jesus reminds me very much of why Jews rejected Jesus during his own lifetime. Jews of the time were waiting for a military leader of sorts in the Messiah that would deliver them from Roman oppression. Wolpe's view is no different, he is still looking for a material, earthly redemption. As far as pain and suffering in the world...we brought that on ourselves in the beginning. Satan is the one who introduced us to pain and suffering. That is Satan's plan for the world, not God's. I for one am eternally grateful for what Jesus did for all of us. We only have to believe.

PolishCelt

06/23/2000 07:44:44 AM

I cannot gainsay much of what Rabbi Wolpe has said. He is correct. Christian history does not testify to a superior rightousness. I have great respect for Rabbi Wolpe. I am reading one his books The Healer of Shattered Hearts: A Jewish View of God, and I am finding it quite rich. And I agree, the world is not much better for the lfe of the Messiah. Having said this, I am Christian, and I will likely stay Christian. I seek to follow Jesus on his way as his disciple. I do a lousy job of it, but I continue. The Apostles found their experiences with Jesus validated by the event of the Resurection, so too do I find Jesus validated by the witness of their transformed lives. I did not hear, I did not see, but others did, and they told others who told others who told me, and I have found what they did, so I tell you. But the only validation of the truth of Christ is in transformed lives, commitment to love and justice, IN THIS WORLD, and no other.

Travis

06/22/2000 10:52:10 PM

I am afraid that Rabbi Schmuley Boteach is incorrect about the beliefs of Christianity. The second coming that he is speaking about is not because of messianic prophecies not being met. It is to bring about the Judgement of God. Just for arguements sake, let us agree that everything spoken in the Christian New Testament is true. Can you give me a messianic prophecy made in any Judaic Doctrine that was not met by Jesus of Nazareth?

cuckootheclock

06/22/2000 08:52:46 PM

Rabbi Schmuley Boteach said this on the Larry King show: "Even Christianity says there has to be a second coming, because none of the messianic prophesies have been fulfilled. And you know what? We'll sit and wait and see who does it." Sound fair enough. Lord, have mercy.

lorelei

06/22/2000 07:29:52 PM

I have long been an admirer of Rabbi Wolpe and I always will be. I myself have problems with the idea that only "born-again" Christians are going to Heaven. It does not make sense and it is cruel and short-sided.Unlike Rabbi Wolpe, however, I don't believe that Jesus is the supporter of those ideas either. When Jesus spoke of the "Kingdom of God", I believe he was speaking of the state of the soul in the here and now, and the way to live your lives now. The desolation and separation from God do not come from a lack of belief in Jesus, but a lack of love , compassion and forgiveness. I really found this article very intriguing and thought provoking.

rayb

06/22/2000 04:59:12 PM

I think this article does a fine job in demonstrating why Jews don't accept Jesus, especially if this is what Rabbis are teaching is Jesus message and purpose... ;-)

Travis

06/22/2000 03:51:36 PM

Rabbi- Your third point says that Jesus was incorrect to say that all one needs do is believe in him to be saved. You say it doesn't make sense that a good man should go to hell because he doesn't believe in Jesus. I'm not sure what your definition of a good man is, but let me quote this verse and give you an idea of what I'm speaking about. Dt6:25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness. Since 1406BC when that book was written every man has broken at least one of those laws. This means you are not righteous. In order to get into heaven you must be declared righteous. So that means heaven is empty? No, that means that righteousness is given by God's Grace alone through Jesus Christ. About the man that does bad things all the time, but is saved because he believes. I say that if that man believes that God sent his son to die on the cross for our sins, he'll hunger to follow the teachings of Jesus.

Aqiba

06/22/2000 11:53:48 AM

Rabbi Wolpe says "A Jew who accepts Jesus has cut himself off from the faith community of Jews, and that has been so for 2,000 years." He should consider the growing evidence that it has been not quite so long as 2,000 years. Jewish scholars such as Daniel Boyarin (Dying for God: Martyrdom and the Making of Christianity and Judaism, Stanford University Press, 1999) are showing us that during the first three centuries C.E. the boundaries between "Judaism" and "Christianity" were more porous, more fuzzy, than we have long understood. As Boyarin says in one instance, "Christianity held much more attraction for Rabbis of the talmudic period than our canonical texts are prepared to 'admit.' and . . . there was much more contact, and even convergence, between Rabbis and the Christians long after these contacts frequently are held to have ceased" (p. 19). Rabbi Wolpe--and others on both sides of this issue--may be laboring under faulty paradigm of what went on during those early centuries.

Oversoul

06/22/2000 09:02:05 AM

I am disappointed to see no one has been able to logically dispute the points that Rabbi Wolpe brings up. There is an opportunity for a very interesting debate here. Rather, I see the same tired dogmatic catchphrases tossed out. watton: your statements about democracy, art, music, science and medicine are disturbingly misguided. Our democratic traditions come primarily from pre-Christian (in other words Pagan)Roman and Greek ideas, as did the foundations of Western medicine. Western art and music too were influenced by pre-Christian European civilizations. Much of our foundation for science and mathematics can be found in the works of Muslims in addition to the works of ancient Romans and Greeks. Even our major "Christian" holidays are replacements for older European Pagan festivals. I think you give too much credit to "Christian" civilization for revolutionizing the world.

Lavonia

06/22/2000 01:46:08 AM

The bible teaches us to study to show ourselves approved to GOD,and to be aware of false teacher.Jesus was more than just a man,but he was God incarnate.Jesus was already crucified and you can't crucify him, because he rose from the dead with all power in his hand.No matter how negative the comments for they are just comments, heaven is real just as well as hell is real everybody wants to go to heaven but many don't want to believe in Jesus.Believe on him and you will be saved.

Travis

06/22/2000 01:35:00 AM

Rabbi, I would like to respond to just part of your article for now. When Jesus speaks in Matthew 10:34-37, he is speaking about this very debate. He is saying this as a prophecy, telling you that your father and brother will fight with you and disagree with you because of his teachings. Earlier in your article you give the number one reason that Jews do not view Jesus as the Messiah is that he did not redeem the world. He was sent to redeem the world in the sense of Souls. I think that you will agree with me that to get into heaven you must be pure. I tell you that no man is pure. By Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, it made it possible to enter heaven provided we believe.

watton

06/21/2000 10:40:03 PM

If we took away all the accomplishments of Christians throughout history would the world be a better place? Think about it. The world today would be profoundly different - political democracy, art and music, science and medicine as currently practiced came to us from a culture and civilization fostered in Christian roots. I contend that the Rabbi focuses too much on the negative. Evidence of redeemption and the fruits of God's Kingdom are to be seen everywhere. On the topic of the barren fig tree that Jesus condemns and withers away my study bible makes the observation that Israel is the withered fig tree. To quote "... a fig tree is often a symbol of Israel. Her fruitfulness has ceased, so the Kingdom will be taken from her and given to another people, who will bear spiritual fruit." Rather than a peevish literal condemnation of a fig tree Jesus was teaching with imagery on a topic not far off that of this column. --john

CharisseLazarou

06/21/2000 06:21:08 PM

I must also say however, that I agree with Rabbi Wolpe's assessment of some of the vulgarities of Christians. The history of Christianity is not a pretty or particularly holy one

tarrantf

06/21/2000 05:49:52 PM

I think the Rabbi's arguments are extremely persuasive. So why am I still a Christian? It is my heritage, and I love the Church, but I want to see it transformed from the inside. I believe the "Christ event" has been distorted by the Church and institutionalized as dogma, and the evils of its past and present are beneath contempt. I don't think Christianity will survive unless it rejects its exclusive claim to revelation. I hope to see a progressively more universalist Church in the future, and will do everything in my power to encourage and support it. I reject those things that divide humankind, and I embrace those things that unite us. It's time for the Church to emerge from its infancy.

CharisseLazarou

06/21/2000 04:18:39 PM

I have long been interested in the schism between Jew and Christian. Basically I think we could quibble about whether Jesus is or is not the Messiah from now until the end of the age, and then we'll really know won't we? Despite whatever we "THINK", both Jews and Christians are waiting for the same thing....the Messiah, whether he's come again or knocking on the door the first time. So rather than looking at our differences shouldn't we be concentrating on God, our mutual God and his timeless word? Cause basically he's the only one that's got a clue.

Ralph

06/21/2000 03:39:27 PM

Mr. Wolpe makes some interesting points but instead of making several arguements that couldn't be made in the time or space given here I will ask Mr. Wolpe to read "Betrayed" by Stan Telchin. This book is written by a Jewish man who takes on the task of actually researching the Messianic prophecies in the O.T. instead of accepting by blind faith the faith of his parents.In turn I will read with an open mind the book Mr. Wolpe has recomended-- "You take Jesus, I'll take God" by Samuel Levine.

Deodar

06/21/2000 02:25:23 PM

Like Melchizedek whom existed, he to whom even Abraham, the father of the Hebrew nation, paid tribute, that is, acknowledged as greater than himself-Melchizedek, never born and never dying. Only God is from everlasting to everlasting. It was the awareness of his identity as spiritual being, as God , as the I AM that was revealed as Melchizedek. The spiritual identity of our being is Melchizedek, man who was never born can never die. This "I AM That I AM" was made manifest and realized through the man Jesus who became Christ the King of Peace. Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of day, nor end of Life, but made like unto the Son of God; Most High!

watton

06/21/2000 02:18:47 PM

I contend that Rabbi Wolpe's real reason for rejecting Jesus as Messiah is the same as mine for accepting him - namely because my fathers and mothers have. I wonder if Rabbi Wolpe, unlike most Jews I know, still believes that there ever will be a Messiah and if so what will he be that Jesus never was? Whatever Jesus was, I agree that he was an enigmatic personality. Rabbi Wolpe implies that he was a Torah thumper and yet other highly regarded research concludes that he was 'A Marginal Jew.' Go figure. --john

Oversoul

06/21/2000 11:01:18 AM

I can't add much, but I will say that Rabbi Wolpe hit the nail on the head. While I am not Jewish, the points that he makes for Jews rejecting Jesus as the Messiah and as God are precisely why I stopped being a Christian.

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