Girls Just Want to Have Fun
This American Muslim won't wear a head cover but will wear tight jeans. Modesty, she says, comes from within.
08/29/2010 05:37:36 PM
religious texts are to be translated as to how they make sense to you. If it is written down does not mean it comes directly from the mouth of God but through another human being. The Christian bible also talks about women talking in church, the Torah talks about the mixing of cloths. To think that we must take spiritual texts literally is interesting. Asma is not in the least bit going against God but against someone else's interpretation of God. Wear the hajib if you think that you have to control men because they are so weak that they can't control themselves. Why is it up to women to control men? they have to learn how to control themselves and stop blaming women.
07/22/2010 06:05:48 PM
QUOTE: ".....But it's an unspoken thing among Muslim women that when you're going to an Islamic event, you cover your head because everyone else there is going to be covered, " Maybe where she lives it's like that. I have been to local Islamic events where a few Sisters weren't covered. QUOTE: ".....But I don't think in daily life it's required." She's entitled to her opinion. QUOTE: "Why do you so firmly believe Muslim women don't have to wear hijab? I don't feel the Qur'an is asking us to. Hmm, which Qur'an have you been reading? As far as Qur'anic teaching goes:" 24 31, "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty…" What exactly was that supposed to mean?....." It means we ( the believing women ) are not to display our BEAUTY. What is the most beautiful parts of a woman? The parts that draw the attention the of men? The hair, face, and bosom. And how can we draw our veils over our bosoms if we aren't already wearing one? Obviously in this verse Allah is expecting us to already be wearing one. QUOTE: ".....I think you can be modest wearing regular clothes, Western clothes. I think this is pretty modest [looking down at her shirt and jeans]. But I think it's also stylish." The idea of hijab is not to make oneself look attractive. QUOTE: "..... In the end, the Qur'an says Allah is the final judge and I'm responsible for everything I do." What a cop-out. Something that is said by people of all religions when trying to shut up someone who is trying to guide them, but they want to continue on "as is." QUOTE: "Other Muslim women were saying they have nothing to give their daughters that's positive about Islam to read." The mother's need to visit an Islamic bookstore in person, or online. QUOTE: "And I thought, you know, as Muslims we never get to have fun anymore. It's all serious. It's all business." That's same thing drinkers say as their reason to not give up alcohol. QUOTE: "I'm interested in your thoughts on Sufism, because that aspect of Islam is often the gateway for so many converts to Islam." HUH? I'm a revert and have friends who are. I know very little about the Sufi sect and when I talk to women considering Islam, Sufism has never been mentioned. I don't where the reporter got her info! QUOTE: "......The first thing I noticed about him was he was dressed almost funny. He was wearing a wool vest, very plain, no special stitching. It looked like something out of Star Wars." QUOTE: ".....So here I am sitting next to this person who's dressed funny....." Mocking and making fun of people is INAPPROPRIATE! QUOTE: "What is the main reason you're a Muslim? You list a number of them in your book." THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION!
07/04/2009 04:16:01 PM
It's one thing to say that you choose not to wear hijab (that's your choice). To claim that hijab is not a requirement, is tottally unjustified. Many of us consider ourselves Americans and were raised in the US, but I think it's really sad that you're trying to belie God, just to defend your need to "fit-in."
04/27/2009 06:33:17 AM
as Salaamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi ar Barakatuhu. I just want to say that it is truly a wonderful time that we are living in. Islam, like all other religions, has gone the route of having many different views and degrees of separation from what Rasul' Allah (PBUH) had given for muslims to follow. Nothing wrong with being moderate or even progressive in your deen. However, when you get so far beyond the original basis of what modesty means within the context of Islam, then you have truly made an inovation. Or even worse, maybe deviate from Islam and incorporate Dunya into your life and call it Deen with a femenist title. America is the greatest country on the face of the planet. It's freedom of religion allows us to practice and believe in whatever we want. If you want to show your stuff off in skin tight blue jeans for all the world to see, then are free to do just that. But if you are a muslim who practices Islam, you don't have to say a word about modesty because it will show in the way you present yourself. Represent true Islam and stop fronting on Allah. May Allah show us all the error of our ways before Youm id Deen - because we all have fallen short of being perfect muslims. Ahgstaghfirr Allah.
06/20/2005 07:05:46 PM
This woman is entirely right. It is within her realm to define modesty according to her wisdom. If she thinks tight jeans are ok, so be it. At least she's covered. Better covered with tight jeans, than uncovered in fornication. Her actions speak louder than her clothes. MDF
11/14/2004 01:07:17 PM
This woman seems to be a very self-hating Muslim. What's the point of the Revelation, if it's only going to be twisted to fit the times?
08/29/2004 01:53:11 PM
But also, when I started to experience God(at 15), I started to care alot about other people, and the world, and their troubles. I become more accepting, and I realized that we are all created equal, and we all need food,shelter,and love, and that we will all die one day. So we have to take care of each other. One of the Pillarso f Islam is Charity. I'm sorry that parts of the world that practice Islam do have alot of troubles with how their people are treated. And I don't think they know Islam in their hearts, and maybe they just use it to take advantage of the true believers. This is a flaw for Power that some people in political positions use. That why alot of people, even here in America, are so skeptical of Politics!
08/29/2004 01:51:24 PM
To surrender exists because you realize that you're not alone. It's like you knock on the wall, and one day, you get a response, you get three knocks back! And then you do this again, and you get 11 knocks, and every day! Amongst your shock, and utter glee about this discovery, your faith is born, and gets bigger over time. It was the openness to the experience, then the testing it out, then the getting convinced. .
08/29/2004 01:33:40 PM
I believe the key to God is not so much in searching intellectually as I had, but in giving up all the questioning, and SURRENDERING. Really listening to your heart, while ignoring the bickering of the mind, that will get really intellectual on you! Real Belief in God is not a dreamy,mythically,fear-of-death,"I gotta believe just in case", "I'm morally better than thou" approach to life. It's more of a inner knowing, not a "belief". If you haven't experienced that about God, then I couldn't judge you, because everyone has their own journey. Once you can feel God with your Body, then your mind will lead you to where you need to go. This was just my experience, and I hope you respect it.
08/29/2004 01:33:28 PM
Also, About ALLAH, it may be hard for atheists to understand this, but I believe in God in my heart first, then I believe ALLAH intellectually. I was just as skeptical about GOD and what I saw as "institionalized religion" growing up. I was raised religiously, but once I was 12 yrs old, I could decide for myself. So I searched through various religions. When I had given up at 15 yrs old,(to be atheist), I had my first of many spiritual experiences. Then I really felt God physically, and emotionally, SOULFULLY, but I STILL did not know what religion was right. (The senses tell you something, but intellectually, "you don't understand".) My journey brought me to Islam. And once I discovered her, I still was skeptical about being religious,I had enjoyed partying,until I read her history, and then I "surrendered".
08/29/2004 01:16:10 PM
About my family "thinking I'm crazy to wear a hijab", we are Puerto Rican, and they are generally casual, into social drinking, dancing, and looking glamorous to show off. It's more like I'm an oddball in the family for not caring too much about being a "real p-rican", almost like "why would I want to give that up, that freedom?" But I tell everyone this, I'm my perception, I am actually liberating myself from my past destructive ways. This is what a "jihad"(inner struggle) is meant to be. I have been Muslim for 2 months, and I haven't smoked cigarettes in that time. Nor drink, or eat pork. I find myself becoming more loving, humble, and worrying less about money. Jihads will occur my whole life, like anyone else's, but I know the end result is worth it. =)
08/29/2004 01:08:00 PM
Hello! I'm back! To IDBC, to clarify better, I was referring how we DID talk about how the media's job of constant bombardment of ads in the persuasion of materialism was wrong. We talked about American's admiration with celebrities, and status, and how clothing was more for showing off, and fitting in. And this was not to offend Americans, but to point these flaws associated thereof. So we didn't talk about Islam, sorry! Also, I say this humbly, I don't worry about being good looking. It did matter tremendously when I was growing up, but as I gotten more spiritual, things like that are superficial and don't matter much to me.
08/06/2004 12:08:31 PM
gtp3, I've noticed that all the guys who invent a god, don't always follow the rules they want you to follow. A human condition I suppose. Islam will never take hold in the U.S., not only because there are so many doing terrible things, but, this country does not respond well to fear. Women have never feared a god, not like men. Eve was not afraid. God tossed adam out of the garden, not the snake, not eve. That says allot. Adam was afraid. He is still afraid. Loving a god out of fear of the afterlife is an oxymoron. You can't love something that you fear. Can't trust someone that you fear, either. Till then next exciting moment.
08/06/2004 09:46:39 AM
Puurrzz-"Muhammed was tested. He did not beat his woman lightly with a rod, stick or toothbrush. That would make me right. Your role model did not believe Allah knew best. Follow that lead." Whatever commentary u had in the end,Divorse is legel in the Quran but Muhammed never did that. it is not about Allah knowing best. it is about some things are permissable for practical purposes even though it is disliked by ALLAH. U would agree that divorse at times is necessary even though it is highly disliked thing.thank u for acknowledging the truth that Muhammed NEVER hit a woman. Allah knows best!!he's the rolemodel.From reading ur comments on other post, it is evident u enjoy insulting the faith of others as well as Muslims. So it is not totally hate against Muslims alone, its with all faiths. Talk to u again when the next group of articles come out. I wear head covering and I am not married. i wouldn't force her too wear it. like faith it is a choice.. i answered that already..Peace..
08/05/2004 05:01:17 PM
gtp3, 3 posts. I'll answer each. 1- torrah. Your role model believed in torah. Where do you think he found out about adam and eve? Aztec writings? Men in head towels. There are many sects of the Muslim world. Only a couple wear a towel on their head. What do you wear on your head? Does your women cover her head? Answer please. 2-Muhammed was tested. He did not beat his woman lightly with a rod, stick or toothbrush. That would make me right. Your role model did not believe Allah knew best. Follow that lead. 3-Do you really think only Muslim god guys are nuts? Look around! Does the pope make sense to you? How about the mormons? If the gay guys in your mosque can refrain from making love to the guy next to him, does that mean gay guys have more self control than straight guys? Religion is like beer, too much can make you stupid. I read that,so, it must be true.
08/05/2004 03:45:44 PM
Why are u bringing up the torah, i thought u don't believe in religion. If u believe in the torah, it is way harsh towards woman than any Quran. If u do believe the Torah than u contradicted urself many times over. Muslim men do wear headcover. I know people who call mocks muslims by saying the derogatory word "towel head" it is not because they are bald.. So from what we discussed i can accept any torah or gospel quotes from u because u hate religion. or is it just islam..
08/05/2004 03:35:38 PM
We do know that Muhammed was tested many times by women, even the one who wanted him dead and when Islam prevailed in Mecca, he had no vengence acted towards them in any way. one example is a woman named Hind, who payed a man to kill the Prophets uncle in a battle. She literally bit (hamza) heart. Muhammed was affected by it but did not act in revenge and she lived her life in peace. there's more, so it is more naieve to speak in ignorance don't u think??
08/05/2004 03:35:28 PM
One point i forgot to mention is that to have a second wife, u must have the permission of the first wife. if she vetoes it then it is not allowed. I am not asking u to believe anything, i am asking u to be tolerant of the religion of a billion people.in the 50-60's many hated black people because they were different in talk and culture. but look alittle learning opens doors. Passing gas nullifies the prayer because it is a distraction, so many muslims refraim from doing so. it is about distraction period!!! I wonder ur motivation, because when peolpe slam islam face to face i learn that it is more anti arabs and pakistani's culture than Islam..
08/05/2004 03:27:20 PM
gtp3, 1- The over population of women. XX (female) is stronger than XY (male) Allah knew best. 2- Illigitimte children. Hajar, the historical mother of Islam (Hagar in the Bible and Torah), a single mother who raised her and the prophet Abraham’s son Ishmael in the desert of modern day Mecca....now NY. 3- You can be a good guy without strange and outdated writings. 4- Women don't mind sharing a man, men won't tolerate sharing a woman...? Is that a good thing? 5- men of all gods have killed. More men kill, rape and rob, than women, with or without a god. 6- Not yet seen a Muslim man wearing a scarf over his head, just the women. Why?
08/05/2004 03:14:03 PM
Yo gtp3, If the guy wrote it, then he believed it and, made it an acceptable practice. HIS bad. But, if he didn't beat his women lightly when they "deserved it", then that would tell me, he didn't believe that Allah knew best. We don’t know if he was tested in that way, and if he was tested in that way, it's not written. But again, if he was tested in that way and did not beat her, then again I say, he didn't believe that Allah knew best. Is that clear? Now, you wan to convince me that praying alongside a woman is distracting? Get a bigger mosque. Don't even try to convince me that the guy in front of you or beside you passing gas, wouldn't be a distraction for you. Don't believe everything you read, or told. And, for god's sake, don't be so naive as think that everything about a god is in a god book, written by men, for men. There is always more to a god than what was written down.
08/05/2004 03:10:49 PM
How do u deal with the issue of overpopulation of women, like in NYC? do we allow playas to play.. and have illegetimate children,and ignore it or face it with a solution. If the Islamic solution is wrong, then what is yours? and not answering it doesn't count.
08/05/2004 03:09:17 PM
I am trying to practice Like Muhammed did, with kindness and compassion. however, ur right many muslim societies women are beaten, and many men has superceeded ALLAH and decide forthemselves what is best. Like a man who drinks too much and go home to beat his wife, this is a real issue in USA and other places, wouldn't u think that is bad too, or is it only when a muslim does something it is bad. Imagine if lacy peterson was a mUslim, oh God.we don't blame christianity for this, NO,we blame a murderer. Men in General are crazy, u find a man who will allow u to have another husband, see if he lets u??? However, a woman would allow it in many other places for support and such.
08/05/2004 02:58:28 PM
Puurrzz,Yes or No, did Muhammed ever beat a Woman?? How many Muslim Men u know have more than one wife??? Its a 'can' rule, not a mandate. reread my post.and take into consideration my previous comments on Muhammads Mission of ending social arabian norms. I have self control, although u say Muslims don't. Men have to cover themselves too!!! u said"Women can't pray along side a woman....how dumb is that?" They can pray together. but men not next to or infront of women. Now if i pray shoulder to shoulder or behind a woman there is a distraction because of the physical movements while praying and the focus is GOD while praying. that has nothing to do w/ self control.
08/05/2004 02:09:28 PM
gtp3, Why couldn't a woman have more than one husband? More than one husband = more money for the woman. If men can have more than one wife, a woman should be able to have more than one husband. That sounds like equality. Kobe, Peterson, Muslim men, many men, lack self control. Allah knew men, not women. He didn't pick one female to pass his knowledge on to. That makes me doubt his wisdom.
08/05/2004 01:54:56 PM
remember that before Islam the Men married up to 50 Wives. it was lowered to 4 and then promoted to One. Islam is the only religion on earth that has the words, ... then marry only one wife, for it will better for u to avoid transgressing.. then to later say that ... a man could never be equal with his wives... by that point it is clear that one is best. How would u get a society to change the social norms, with a sword. No!! look at society for real, how many single mothers are out there. What do u think of the Kobe case, or lacy peterson. How do we end these Ills in society. is it Muslims only that oppress woman. then how u explain the cases i pointed out above.Me personally I like my Wives like my God, Just One!!
08/05/2004 01:54:00 PM
gtp3, True, there is an english quran and an arabic quran. It's okay for a woman on her period to read the english quran, but, not the arabic. See what I mean? Allah does not know best. Why do the women have to cover their heads when the men don't? The words can be mis-used, in fact, they are. Women can't pray along side a woman....how dumb is that? I'm glad you wouldn't hit a woman. That's a god-less law. It's okay for Muslims to beat women in many societies...does Allah know best, or do the men decide they know best?
08/05/2004 01:49:01 PM
One final thing is that it would be nice to Acknowledge That Muhammed never beat a woman or was never harsh towards them. And point out WHY are many Muslim countries have diverted from the example of Muhammed. Who personally promoted womens involvement in society and opened the door to education of women and their participation in voting for the first time in ARAB HISTORY. And also Opened the door to promote Men in Arabia to be proud of having daughters. Which before islam they buried alive because they wanted sons. No Arab IN ARABIA advocated and encouraged men to have daughters and be proud.. read on his actions and u will find that many who u hate have deviated from Muhammed's example. who we believed is the example that God want us to be like...He never Hurt or bear any WOMAN..Please admit that.
08/05/2004 01:41:58 PM
But a Muslim is reading the Quran from the arabic or consulting someone who knows the arabic. the english Quran is not the same as in the original arabic. Can't be a quranic scholar if ur reciting the english translation primarily. Thank You for acknowledging i don't have slaves. If ur not a muslim how is my faith interfereing with ur rights as a female? u clicked on the Muslim section of belief net. U know as I do Muhammed never beat a woman and used the verses as a way to remove abuse from the society. We as Muslims are to apply the Quran the way Muhammed did. not a mufti or anybody else.He was the walking Quran, and never did he hit a woman, on the contrary. And I will never do it, i seen domestic vilence at home and it is horrible.
08/05/2004 01:40:18 PM
no but it is intrepret as a Miswak, a type of natural tootbrush from a twig the size of a #2 pencil.Now the english word is beat but the english translation is not the Quran. In the Hadith Muhammed was clear that if needed use a Miswak. And said don't beat ur women like animals. Which is what they were doing before Islam and many other horrible things.It is a translation by a man who maybe using his worldview to intrepret the Book.
08/05/2004 01:27:14 PM
gtp3, AND, waaaay back in the day, your role model said it was okay for men to have more than one wife. BUT, a woman can have only ONE husband (at a time) THAT IS NOT EQUALITY! ...and it won't fly in the U.S. Women here are smarter than your role model.
08/05/2004 01:21:07 PM
gtp3, Your role model tells you how to treat a woman. I take it you don't agree with ALL his teachings. You probably don't have slaves, either. Either pick and choose which teachings you will follow, or, you're more afraid of what the law will do to you if you do follow all of his teachings. Look dude, I am a female. I am against any religion or law based on religion that interferes with my rights as a female. Got a problem with that??? And, that verse does not say the word, "toothbrush"...it does say the word, "beat". Nor does your prophet allow the woman to "beat" her man, with or without a toothbrush!!! Next?
08/05/2004 12:58:46 PM
Now give me an example where the Prophet (PBUH) BEAT a woman like the verse u pointed out.. Give me his action, u already gave the words.. U can't because he NEVER did such a thing!!! It is impossible that u will change ur mind or at least show some tolerance. there are verses that talk about that too..or be able to distinct Curtural ignorance from Religious law. is it an arab thing ur phobic towards?? Or just Muslims??But No Muslim is ordered to force a woman to do anything. I wouldn't force a woman to hear hijab but u wouldn't believe that.. So yes it is a woman and a man's right to choose their path and pay attention to the specks in their own eye.. I guess u think that a document called the constitution is applicalble to 18th century too.. So u would like Muslims who live by the Quran to be sent in camps in the US like the japanese in WWII huh??
08/05/2004 12:47:05 PM
The prophet wife, Khadijah supported herself and was wealthy. Give me an example where he beat a woman.. u gave a verse that gives steps and plus the beat as u mentioned is to touch a woman with a small tootbrush because at the point there is no talking between the two after step one and step 2. it is not to hurt like scott peterson or the hacking guy.
08/05/2004 12:12:47 PM
gtp3, gtp3, Too easy. Of course you were raised by a woman, most men are. Big deal. So, you're active on women's issues. I take it that would mean you make sure their hair is covered and that they are obedient?? I certainly doubt that you would support a woman's right to choose. Okay, here are the words of your role model:
08/05/2004 12:12:00 PM
Your role model tells you to... 4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). Yes, it is stupid. Your prophet thinks that it takes more strength to beat someone up than to give birth. Now days women support themselves, so, what would your role model say about that? It proves to me that these "laws" were written for the times, 1400 years ago. You need to live in the present, not the past. Your role model also thought it acceptable to have slaves, got any of them?
08/05/2004 09:53:42 AM
Puurrzz- what r u talking about??? I am an AMerican too and enjoy engaging discussion (first ammendment). But be factual on applying the Quran.Please don't brand me as anti woman in anyway. I was raised by women and am active on womens issues in my community. But what offends me is bigotry in all respects. Now answer my question of Prophet Muhammed please??? That is my role model in following the Quran, not an intrepreter of the text...If u can't than u proove ur Islamophobic. so it's not to pass judgement if u can't defend ur harsh highly offensive statements..
08/04/2004 05:56:48 PM
gtp3, So, did some pretty American girl tell you stuff it and now you're pissed off at all women? Or, do you dislike women who have an opinion differnt than what you read in a god book? I thought you weren't to pass judgment. Better watch yourself, you might end up in hell with all those deprived women!
08/04/2004 03:08:13 PM
Give me one example of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) beating a woman. We are to follow his example so give me one??? I bet u cringe everytime u see a Muslim woman willingly wearing her head covering. Is that her problem or Yours??? That is a sign of Islamophobia.
07/30/2004 02:05:38 PM
qtp To be accurate all those people who existed BEFORE Isreal was created were NOT Jewish. The were Hebrews. After Isreal was created they were Isrealites. It was only after Isreal split and became two kingdoms Isreal and Judah(from which the name Jew comes from)could they be called Jews.
07/30/2004 12:37:04 PM
gtp3, Actually, it's not nearly as hysterical as believing in a god who would force women to cover up for protection against the weak men your god creates...then claim it's for modesty. I suppose you have no problem with husband beating wives (lightly) with a rod should he find her ungrateful. Having a period will make her ritually impure...an ignorant belief. Men are a degree higher? Yep, a man said so. Your god is very busy at the moment, so you may want to refrain from asking for anything. Right now HE is talking to Bin Laden, at the same time HE is talking to Sharon, and, believe it or not, HE is also taking to Bush. Do you find that to be hysterical, too? Abe, Noah, Mosses=Jewish origins. Christians, Muslims, Jews...why does HE not tell one that HE is siding with the other? Hysterical. I hope Thar comes to her senses.
07/29/2004 02:37:48 PM
Its is absolutely hysterical to me that Non-Muslims are telling muslims how to interpret their faith.I am reading some of the posts by Idbc and Puurzz. idbc, u are picking on Sister thar and the amount of post u put up show it (five long in a row, please. And Puurzz, "The covering of a woman's hair has it's roots, (pardon the pun) in the Jewish god." is the "Jewish God" a different God?? Actually, was Abraham Jewish??? NO!! he wasn't, that is a fact. Was Noah jewish??? although a portion of noah seed (Shem) begotten Jews doesn't mean noah was jewish. If so, then was Ham and Japheh Jewish? And Sister Terz, may God keep ur faith strong. As a Latino revert to Islam, i understand how ur change can be at home.
07/28/2004 10:32:37 AM
Thar One last thing. I wouldn't worry to much about being so good looking. In no time at all the bloom will fall of the rose so to speak and men won't care if you are stark naked.
07/27/2004 04:04:12 PM
Thar You family thinks your crazy because you wear a hijab ? Consider yourself lucky. If you lived in one of the Glorious Islamic Republics and reverted to christianity or left Islam for any other reason you would at the very least be ostriized from your family. At worst you would be killed by your family under the pathetic ideal of honor killing. Unless of course some mullah beats them to it.
07/27/2004 03:59:20 PM
Thar The prejudice that employers,neighbors, even parents have toward it, thinking that it's oppressive. Gee, is that predjuice similar to the way "some" Muslims believe that if you don't cover your "endowments" that you are at the very least immodest, or a slut ? Is it similar to the predjuice that some Muslims feel that if you are wearing fashionable clothes it is because your worhship movies stars ? Is it similar to the predjuice that that some Muslims have that if your dress attractivly you cannot be as pious as those who wear the hijab ? My Hispanic family thinks I'm crazy to desire to wear a Hijab one day, and think I will get harrassed, but you know what, I get harrassed anyway for my looks. I always have, since I was
07/27/2004 03:51:16 PM
Tharasiya In my Media class in college, we talked about American's flawed impressions through Media all the time. \ Name them ? What are the "flawed" impressions "the media" has about Islam. Maybe we should follow the example of the Islamic media like Al Jerrezza ?
07/27/2004 03:43:10 PM
8787 The Sunnah teaches that women should be covered and teaches that "khimar" is a head covering."--sorry That is ONE interpretation of the Sunnah. There are other Muslim scholars who disagree and have the power to enforce their interpretations on others. I do agree that the Quran does not "directly" say to cover your head. It is very vague as to what should be covered. Joe given the way the wester world are heading.. And the eastern world is heading ? how far should muslims reinterpret their Holy Books to conform with western ways of life? Do you mean the western way of greater tolerance and respect for the religious beliefs or even non-belief of others ? Do you mean the western way of seperating church and state, so that the thugs of the soul(clergy)and the thugs of the body(politicians)don't band together to oppress people ? I would say pretty far.
07/27/2004 03:38:53 PM
The covering of a woman's hair has it's roots, (pardon the pun) in the Jewish god. As described in Noah, "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose." By covering their hair, women could protect themselves from being taken by one of the sons of god. Apparently the daughters of god, not that I've heard of any, are not all that impressed with the sons of men, as to date, none have be taken.
07/27/2004 02:10:46 PM
Personally I have no problem with a woman who "wants" to adhere to hijab. If she feels that this is a way to express her piousness or modesty, then it should not be criticized. Where I do have a problem is when some clerical thug or thugs beat(lightly of course)a woman or women for not "wanting" to wear the hijab. I can understand women who wear a hijab because they are good looking or sexy. Wearing a hijab will cut down on being "hit on" by non-Muslim AND MUSLIM MEN. But let's be honest. Not all Muslim women are good looking and sexy and even those that are beautiful an sexy lose their looks when the get older. Wouldn't it be easier for men to simply control themselves ? Or are they incapable of it ? Why is the burden on the woman ?
07/27/2004 01:54:49 PM
mryn8787 Violent words ARE in the Quran and therefore in Islam. Of course this violence "ideally" should be used only for "defense" but he "practice" does not always hold to the ideals. the Quran does not directly say cover your head, but rather indirectly. I believe the Quran enjoins women to cover their "endowments" for the sake of modesty. I believe that even among Muslim scholars it is not "clear" exactly what the details mean. I have heard a range of opinions from Muslims that this can be anything from wearing a barqa to wearing a simple headscarf. I have even heard it said that this sura applied to only the wives and children of the Prophet. Among Muslims there is a dispute as to wether this is an absolute requirement or voluntary.
07/26/2004 12:05:43 AM
But no matter what, your actions are the business of your own,and God is is the ultimate judge of your soul. So the author's opinions are hers, as mine are my own, and I can't call her a bad person because we're different. She seems supportive of the religion, which is great, but people should not play "follow the leader" on anyone's opinions about this subject, they should just read the Qu'ran themselves, and appreciate the diverse perceptions before adopting their own. That's the intellectual way to do it. Does the translation of the Qu'ran in English and The Arabic version differ on the story of the hijab? No matter what, it's a good idea.
07/25/2004 11:57:01 PM
But if you're afraid to cover, then you are afraid to be different from the American population in their style. It's the absense of style that keep mainstream muslims focused on the most important thing, God. I'm reading the Qu'ran and will factually find out for myself what God says about the Hijab. I, too want to know if it is a religious obligation or a culturally trend. I'm already dressing conservatively. I see a trend in the Qu'ran that the answers he provides to Man's problems can only be understood in the BIG PICTURE. It may not always please the individual, but man always gets annoyed when they can't fully understand something. If you see the overall benefit of hijab, then you may come up with some interesting perspectives.
07/25/2004 11:56:55 PM
Also, I think that if you're religious, you should show that it is important to others even if you live in a modern society like America because wearing Hijab will atttract like-minded people to you, and not wearing one will attract EVERYTHING else! And I also feel that if you emulate a celebritie's style, clothing-wise, you're supporting an almost god-like devotion to them. Wearing brand names like Gap, Nike, Abercrombie, Ect. is like a demonstration of your religion too, it's a label that one creates, and it's a material, not spiritual one. Wearing Hijab is a tough decision only because in America it's not understood. I believe that American-Muslims who don't cover are afraid of the American harrassment of muslims, and get this impression from television. In my Media class in college, we talked about American's flawed impressions through Media all the time.
07/25/2004 11:40:48 PM
I'm a Hispanic-American-Muslim, and I'm in my twenties, so I know the temptation for us young people to wear trendy, sexy clothes that show our boobs and everything else. But it is my opinion that alot of the American-Muslims that don't cover because of the discrimination from fellow Americans about it! The prejudice that employers,neighbors, even parents have toward it, thinking that it's oppressive. My Hispanic family thinks I'm crazy to desire to wear a Hijab one day, and think I will get harrassed, but you know what, I get harrassed anyway for my looks. I always have, since I was 12 years old, I had men of all ages sexually harrass me. So in actuality, I would wear hijab for two reasons, 1. As a Huge sign to men, to NOT oogle my body! 2. As a sign of my religion to others, and my devotion to God. So I would wear it out of choice.
07/22/2004 06:01:33 PM
Even if I was that jiggling teenager, I expect men to behave themselves...got a problem with that??? and a big Boo right back at ya.
07/22/2004 01:21:30 AM
Puurrzz Just a question. If you saw your teenage daughter walking in such a way as to... well... so as to cause her "endowment" to jiggle - let's say while at the shopping mall or at the supermarket - would you offer her any advice about that. Okay, sure - maybe you would think about it for a while. And also be careful about her self-esteem. But would you say anything to her? Just curious. Peace and best wishes. (Oh - and boo, to you, too!)
07/21/2004 06:40:45 PM
joemuslim and usama In the mid-east your women have to be covered from head to toe. Why? Because they may sexually arouse a man? Because your men have no self control, women have to be covered. Men do not need to be completely covered, I can only assume it is because they just don't find you all that attractive. I think women scare you guys. Boo!
07/20/2004 05:40:33 AM
how far should muslims reinterpret their Holy Books to conform with western ways of life? are we going to somehow find a way to spin verses and legitimate gay marriage, euthanasia, etc. someday, given the way the wester world are heading..
07/20/2004 04:00:51 AM
I made a boo-boo in my post starting w/ "violent words are not the way of Islam." I said that the Quran does not directly say, but I should have said, that "To any novice, the Quran does not directly say cover your head, but rather indirectly. But it is from the sunnah that we get the meaning of what the Quran says about women's dress. We must obey the Sunnah. The Sunnah teaches that women should be covered and teaches that "khimar" is a head covering."--sorry
07/19/2004 08:50:32 PM
Non-Quranic scholars have no right to interpret the Quran however they want. They are more likely to follow their own vain desires than what the Quran truly says. This is because the true Quran is in classical Arabic. How many of you are fluent in classical arabic and know all of the contextual meanings and idioms? What Arabic words mean today don't exactly mean what they did in 610. The ignorance of many Muslimas is evident in their citing of the word "hijab" as not meaning headcover in the Quran. Therefore they don't have to cover. They fail to realize that the verse about women covering their heads uses the word "khimar" to mean headcover. Obviously, they've never read the actual arabic of the Quran.
07/19/2004 08:47:28 PM
Violent words are not the way of Islam. If a non-Muslim were to read these posts, they would surely think that Muslim men are oppressive. This is not the case. Furthermore, the Quran does not directly say cover your head, but rather indirectly. Instead it is from the sunnah that we get the meaning of what the Quran says about women's dress. We must obey the Sunnah. The Sunnah teaches that women should be covered. That's that. The reason as the Quran gives for this is so that Muslim women will be recognized as Muslims & be treated as such (33:59) and so that they may guard their modesty (24:31). Let's face it, a non-Muslim is less likely to hit on a hijabi than a nonhijabi.
07/19/2004 08:47:26 PM
Violent words are not the way of Islam. If a non-Muslim were to read these posts, they would surely think that Muslim men are oppressive. This is not the case. Furthermore, the Quran does not directly say cover your head, but rather indirectly. Instead it is from the sunnah that we get the meaning of what the Quran says about women's dress. We must obey the Sunnah. The Sunnah teaches that women should be covered. That's that. The reason as the Quran gives for this is so that Muslim women will be recognized as Muslims & be treated as such (33:59) and so that they may guard their modesty (24:31). Let's face it, a non-Muslim is less likely to hit on a hijabi than a nonhijabi.
06/30/2004 04:06:18 AM
Insha Allah, sister Asma will grow up and realize when she has a husband, daughters and sons of her own the effects and power of sexuality on people. May Allah forgive her and guide her to the reality of her ways.
06/28/2004 01:08:47 PM
I believe that we need voices like Asma's, whether or not we agree with them, as what keeps movements thriving is room for debate and exploration. There are a number of ways to interpret the textual injuctions for modesty, and we must not hold anyone prisoner to our point of view.
06/28/2004 10:54:20 AM
You Muslims disgust me.
06/28/2004 06:40:02 AM
dear asma gull hasan, you are a disgrace to islam. THE QURAN DOES SAY THAT MUSLIM WOMEN HAVE TO WEAR THE HIJAB. you are on your way to hell if you carry on with this mentality. how can you call yourself a muslim? you need help in understanding true islamic beliefs and values. i hope this message will alert you of the haram life you are living, and i am sure many other true muslims agree.
06/21/2004 05:05:34 PM
I just recently joined the Beliefnet website. The very first time I checked it, I came across the article by Asma Gul Hasan. Not too long ago I found her latest book "Why I am a Muslim" at the bookstore. I thought that it was a good thing for a Muslim woman to speak out about Islam through a book. However, when I read the article on Beliefnet, I was apalled at her comments. I am specially surprised that she blatantly says that the Quran does not say that a Muslim woman has to wear a hijab. Is she blind? Hasn't she read the verse from Sura Nur (Chapter 24) in which a Muslim woman is commanded not to display her beauty and to cover her head in front of those men who are not her mahram (those whom she can't marry)? I was even more shocked when she mentioned very clearly that she flirts but stays within reasonable boundaries. What on earth does that mean?
06/18/2004 04:51:05 PM
Who the heck is this chick? What a shallow, unfulfulling author-- perhaps it's her age. Tight jeans,glamor shots, and flirting hardly forward Muslimahs these days. As a Muslimah not attending a mosque anymore, I guess I'm out of touch with "today's youth", but I'm kind of glad if they're all that dim-witted and lack spiritual depth and understanding. I would advise this author to look at the issue more holistically instead of treating/addressing symptoms.
06/17/2004 08:48:30 AM
I always used to think how a muslium girl can just go walking on the street without hijab, but after reading this aryicle i found the answer. Ignorance is the answer Asma I think u r in need of desperate help 2 know more about ur religon and the diffrence of what we ought 2 do and what we should do. Hijab is must!!!! Try thinking in another way, what happennes if a guy saw u in a tight jeans and u turned him on?? he will either go for raping you or trying to sleep with u, and dont tell me its allowed to sleep with guys. please next time dont talk about islam befor being well informed about it. Al Salam Alaykom Wa Rahmata Allah
06/15/2004 01:16:56 PM
"putting this title in the Islam home page is offensive, to Islam and it's prophet who've ordered modesty in dress..." Uh huh. Because as we all know, the most serious issue that Islam must contend with today among it's followers are women wearing tight jeans . . .
06/14/2004 12:11:25 AM
putting this title in the Islam home page is offensive, to Islam and it's prophet who've ordered modesty in dress, and mainstream muslims who abide by the word of God and his messenger..... The Reality of Hijaab, The Muslim Woman's Dress: http://www.troid.org/articles/sisters/hijaab/reality.htm more on islam: www.al-islam.com www.therighteouspath.com
06/04/2004 05:53:31 PM
OK... am I the only one offended by the title on the Islam homepage... "Tight jeans, no veil...but I'm still a good Muslim" It sounds to me like she (or BeliefNet)are flaunting the standards required in the Qur'an. I, for one, hate when hijab becomes the major issue for Muslim women... but Asma's attitude is equally annoying. I think she is kidding herself if she thinks that tight jeans are modest dressing. Hijab is more than about modesty, it's also about publicly identifying oneself as a Muslim. It's dawa in action. Perhaps if Asma put on a veil, she may attract the type of Muslim husband she's looking for (e.g. one who loves and fears Allah(swt)).
06/01/2004 11:05:03 AM
i was CONSTANTLY harassed my arab men. Blueberry99, I have seen you repeat this over and over in both this thread and others. In all due respect for your pain, I wonder what is your point. You encounter the vulgar any where with any race, like the proverbial construction sites, low rent districts, et al. It happens. A few bad Arabs harrassed you. My wife (who wears the headscarf) gets harrassed at the supermarket by Americans (presumably because she is a Muslim woman). It happens. She gets over it. As far as sex goes, we (Muslims) don't feel sex is "dirty" or to be ashamed of it. Of course it is human nature. Islam gives generous boundaries for sex, but within limits as with all things. Modest conduct is required of all Muslims (that is men and women), and sexual activity is reserved for the spouse. In short, be modest, don't harrass people, and be forgiving.
05/31/2004 11:43:01 PM
Bonnie, you appear to be new to this discussion. Most of what I'm presenting is inrelation to the nature of man not the ideal moral standard by which he should live his life. The revelation to mankind meets the moral standards of man to man's nature better than what any human can do. The individualism or individual awareness of the secular capitalist ideology has arguably not been able to manage man's nature to meet mankind's ideal moral standards. Regardless, the revelation of Allah to mankind has determined for all how to manage the relations between men and women.
05/31/2004 02:20:08 PM
Usama, rape, molestation, or any other act of violence against a woman (or a man or a child) has nothing to do with dress whether modest or flagrant. Rape is a crime of violence and is the result of what exist in the heart of the rapist, not the victim. You are right! Men must take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming women for their lack of self-control, in thought or deed.
05/31/2004 02:16:42 PM
I truly appreciate reading Ms Hasan's piece. I am a Christian, and there have been times in history when "head coverings" were an issue in our churches too. I grew up in the Catholic church pre-Vatican II when women were required to cover their heads in church. We too as young women were instructed to dress modestly. The purpose of modest dress is to not add to the temptation that already exists in us as human beings toward the opposite sex. Catholic nuns used to wear full "habits" that covered them all year round from head to foot. I'm not really sure why. It may have had something similar to do with shieding them from the sexual gazes of men due to their commitment to God. But the real truth is, no amount of clothing will protect a woman from a man who means "violence" against her. Men must take responsibility for their own thoughts. I don't know what Muhammed taught, but Jesus taught that it was wrong for a man to lust in his thoughts about a woman; that to lust was as bad as to commit the act itself.
05/31/2004 02:16:33 PM
CONT: Out of love and respect for one another men and women both should consider the lives they live. Muslim men might do well to live "righteous" lives in thought, word, and in deed. Women should be careful not to flaunt themselves and therefore put a stumbling block before their "brothers".
05/31/2004 01:51:25 PM
Hogwash. If you folks would read my post over the past weeks, I've said men must take responsibility for their own actions. But self control hasn't saved the millions of women who are raped, molested, fondled in America has it? Or is that the price of freedom- women get molested?
05/31/2004 01:44:14 PM
That's it in a nutshell. Many Middle-Eastern men don't want to take any responsibility for their bad behavior. It's a religiously-sanctioned cultural tradition that has spread with Islam. Why must women cover their heads? Bear all the responsibility? Why shouldn't men avert their eyes? Speak respectfully? Control their lusts?
05/30/2004 09:05:41 PM
again, i find it odd that there is so much emphasis in Islam about preventing other people from being attracted to you. its human nature!! we have these things called hormones. has anyone heard of them? why don't muslims just have their gonads removed? when i lived in paris (which has a huge muslim population) i was CONSTANTLY harassed my arab men. not french men. not american men. not british men. with all the emphasis on being modest, why is it that the arab men had no problem making lewd comments? the problem is not being modest or immodest. the problem is a backwards way of thinking, which devalues women, with zero responsiblity placed on the men.
05/30/2004 07:17:04 AM
To extent modesty is from within but I dont agree with the author when she says she doesnt think the hijab is necessary and the Quran doesn tell us to do so. We have to look at the Quran and the Sunnah hand in hand. We are instructed to be modest in the way we dress and cover our hair. Our religion is about appearance as well as intention and actions. You can tell a Muslim girl/lady from the way she dresses ie the hijab, its a form of our Muslim identity.
05/29/2004 07:59:15 PM
The protest of appearance by not wearing the head covered is not nearly the problem for women as is the problem of having to maintain their boundaries of freedom with respect to dating and evaluating potential mates, even without pre-marital sex. In many cases, the modesty that is required to be held inside, the encouragement of inhibitions is shared in America, especially as women age. It is actually only young women who are truly permitted to experience the level of freedom that people tend to associate with America. In "acceptable" society, here is America, as well as for Muslim women, the idea of the agent arranged date or meeting rather than the arranged wedding is the real need, particularly for women with children, and women near or over the age of 40 when society is much less forgiving of female improprieties. The Jewish traditions have been much more successful in that respect with their yentas.
05/29/2004 07:41:23 PM
Modesty is not relative- Allah sets the standards for morality and ethical meaning. His revelations to mankind or what have uplifted mankind from their downward spiral into moral corruption and intellectual darkness.
05/29/2004 06:56:47 PM
i agree with the author ...modesty does come from within and what is modest dress in your culture actually depends on what youve been taught some S american indians walk around nude with just a string around their waists ..without that string they feel and act as if they are naked and exposed
05/29/2004 08:03:41 AM
Allah has granted women protection from men by instructing them to cover their bodies and their hair. Obviously, Allah has also instructed men to lower their gazes and to be modest and not to touch women etc.
05/29/2004 07:58:38 AM
webgirl, you cannot change that your hair, your body will attract men. With the exception of severe mutilation or deformity, men will be attracted to those physical aspects of you regardless of who you are as a person. Even if you pierce and tattoo your body, shave your eyebrows, head and pluck your eye lashes, this will still apply. That is what is human nature.
05/29/2004 01:45:39 AM
-- i would like to know WHY is showing hair 'bad' thing? -- WHY do us women have to cover ourselves so that MEN are not tempted? Does this say that Men are not as strong as women? i dont pray to any particular 'God' - i pray to the Universe, to the 'god' within me. God is me (and YoU) we are all responsible for ourselves with help with the higher power (to me, Universal energy)
05/29/2004 01:43:49 AM
im born muslim,(not practising) and never have covered my head. 3yrs ago, i felt like a kind of 'calling' and decided to shave all my hair on my head.. for the first time when i saw me in the mirror then.. i saw the TRUE me, i actually LIKED me! as Asma said in an article about Covering ourselves : "..It's their way of protesting judgment based on their appearance--which I really respect. If I were to wear it, it would be for that reason." i feel strongly about my shaved head, as it breaks all that IMAGE perception we have of people.. a quote that explains it: "Shaving my head made me realize how vulnerable we are to our human image, to the façade we cling to." - Nafisa Ali
05/28/2004 08:18:05 AM
Thank you andreati. Again, every person is responsible for one's own actions, obviously. And men do need to take responsibility for themselves. But that point does not negate my previously stated points about human nature.
05/28/2004 02:51:39 AM
Usama, I think man should be held responsible for its own mind. It is time that man grow up and not become a boy who should be sheltered, kept, and guided all the time. Women are also aroused by men, even other than their husband when men shows muscular arm, muscular upper body (lower body does not impact much) but women restrained themselves. They restrain themselves very well that men thinks that its women's nature to be restrained.., well, it comes also with self determination. This virtue men should begin to learn from now on.
05/27/2004 07:31:02 PM
Each being is responsible for its own self and the best way of pleasing Allah and avoiding responsibility for causing problems or fitnah etc. is doing what Allah commands.
05/27/2004 07:28:25 PM
Right- hair is part of the beauty of women which should be covered. Men react to sexual stimuli from various women- so one seductive woman who is alluring but accompanied by her husband might lead a man to respond by approaching some other woman who is alone but attractive. Yes, that man is responsible, but the alluring woman stimulated a natural response to the man. Obviously, Islam requires inner control and conscience and fear of Allah- taqwaa. But I am simply noting the natural response by men.
05/27/2004 07:20:45 PM
Numah, I apologize- I am not tying my points together in part because I am trying to do several things while posting here. Again, I'm addressing male nature and how it leads to certain actions when excited by certain external factors: namely women and their 'beauty and ornaments'. Every man does not react to each encounter with every (physical or visual) stimuli, but they do register each. Some men respond by approaching the woman ecspecially if the woman is alone. No the answer is not to entomb every woman. But it IS to de-sexual the environment- not exploit both men and women by using one to excite the other for economic gains.
05/27/2004 05:26:46 PM
Con't from below. It appears to be the opinion of the Companions such as Ibn `Abbas and the majority of Imams that hair would be considered "part of the body" and not considered part of the face. Thus it seems to be covering the hair is the best way to avoid taking a dubious issue. Likewise, it appears to me that covering the face (as is done in some countries) is not required. Peace and guidence.
05/27/2004 05:21:48 PM
Bismillâh. “And say to the believing women to lower their gazes and guard their chastity, and let them not display of their charm - except what is apparent.” (An-Nur: 31) Commenting on the phrase, “what is apparent”, Ibn `Abbas, the famous Companion and the Qur’an exegete, said, “It means face and hands.” In other words, according to Ibn `Abbas, a woman must cover all her body except her face and hands while in the presence of men who are not related to her directly. The majority of Imams - including those of the Four Schools as well as others - share the above interpretation of Ibn `Abbas, and thus hold the opinion that a woman is not obliged to cover her face and hands. Peace and guidence.
05/27/2004 03:29:53 PM
I'm trying to understand that if I'm behaving in a modest fashion, how am I responsible if a man is not behaving? What's your point about men not approaching us when we are with male relatives? Since many of us live in a sitution where we cannot be escorted by male relatives, what are we to do, stay inside? I don't see where you are going with this. My initial point, as it still stands, is that there is no verse in the Qur'an that says we have to cover our hair and I will still stand by that.
05/27/2004 03:27:11 PM
Usama, What is your point? I'm not following you.
05/27/2004 02:03:20 PM
Islam is not all about exonerating men from responsibility for their actions. Clearly, most men who carry out lewd acts against women, or approach women immodestly almost always do so when the men to whom that woman is close (father, brother, husband) are not around. Islam is addressing the reality of man's sexual nature. In the halls of Congress, women are sexually harassed ( perhaps more discreetly today) and in private, men talk about women they work with even in Congress.
05/27/2004 01:59:13 PM
I meant to say Islam is NOT implemented correctly there (in the Muslim lands). I understand women might feel that 'hair' is not sexual or important, but to men it is. It may be a part of their nature- their wiring. Allah is wise to man's nature. Even a subtle glance or stare from a woman can arouse a man even if she did not intend anything by it. And office places are often full of heightened sexual tension even among nonMuslims.
05/27/2004 01:47:23 PM
33:59 adds throw your outer garments so you may be known and it is convenient. Most men understand that if a woman covers her 'ornaments and beauty', she is not really available for his advances. If men approach a Muslim woman covered as such, then such men are that much lower in their being. Are not little girls snatched from the streets in broad day light? Do not young women go missing in every city regularly? Green River murderer- ever heard of him?
05/27/2004 01:43:06 PM
Numah, I believe you when you say men approach you eventhough you are covered. But Allah is instructing 'covering the beauty and ornaments' to attain purity. What is a women's 'beauty and ornaments'? It is the same through human history. And if men in America approach covered Muslim women and ask for them to uncover, it lends to the misogynistic, or heightened sexual inclination of men in America. Even in Muslim lands- since Islam is implemented their correctly- the same would apply.
05/27/2004 01:33:22 PM
My argument is not about whether or not I should be able to wear a miniskirt or expose my clevage and still be considered a Muslim. My question is how can you call a woman that dresses with her body covered except her hair immodest. I men that weak that they get an erection from looking at a woman's hair? Is that my fault if they are that weak?
05/27/2004 01:31:01 PM
If I'm wearing a long, loose shalwar kameez but my hair isn't covered, how exactly is that a sign of looseness or immodesty? If I'm wearing a very modest business suit but no khimar, but still carrying myself the way a Muslimah should, how is that immodest?
05/27/2004 01:28:53 PM
I agree that a woman walking the streets half naked is not "freedom." But a woman not covering her hair is not immodest either.
05/27/2004 01:19:20 PM
I grew up in America. I understand how its moral culture may reenforce the moral standards of society when the law does not. But as the principle of Al Asr states: over time, man is at loss and those moral standards erode for all people (with the noted exception).
05/27/2004 12:59:11 PM
Numah, I'm not talking about anecdotal cases. I'm talking about how human nature responds to ideas and laws that are about 'freedom'. The original concept of 'freedom' was in the context of the opposite of oppression, namely British colonial oppression. But it has emerged, or transgressed into 'license'. In those nations' that do not have the litigous nature of America, or its Judeo-Christian, Protestant moral culture, 'freedom' is not supported by moral standards. Take Russia, or Thailand, or even Mexico.
05/26/2004 04:34:34 PM
I'm not saying the scarf is right or wrong. I wear it myself. I'm just saying that we were not commanded to cover our hair in the Qur'an. If the command was to cover the breast amd body and not the hair, would it not be obvious what was more important to cover?
05/26/2004 04:31:57 PM
Once again you put words in my mouth. I never said it was haram. From what the Qur'an says, they wore told to cover their bosom with it. Once again, they dressed with their breasts partially exposed with the scarves draped down their backs, therefore, they were told to use the scarves they were already wearing to cover them. I've said many times already that the headscarf is not an Islamic invention; that women were told to cover their exposed breats, not their hair.
05/26/2004 04:10:01 PM
Yes but if it was haram ALlah would have made them take it off. But in reality, the verse u pointed out was proof that its Fard, with the slight modification. If the Community of Muhammed (pbuh) is our role model than my question is valid. And the verse was brought to perfect the practice to avoid any problems. i am off the rest of this discussion, This issue is a decision of Conscience up to the individual....Peace
05/26/2004 04:01:00 PM
I did answer that question. They wore there scarves prior to Islam, but not as we wear it today. They wore it draped down their backs.
05/26/2004 03:47:34 PM
Here it is again.. In either Mecca or Medina in the life of Muhammed (PBUH) (or even with any other previous Prophet). Did the women of their society NOT wear hijab or head covering?? If those societies are to be our role models as Muslims then the answer to this question is the answer to the debate.
05/26/2004 03:33:59 PM
All Muslimahs that don't cover their hair don't wear tight clothes.
05/26/2004 03:32:58 PM
qtp Which question are you referring to?
05/26/2004 03:32:21 PM
One final thing is that if its ur thing as a Muslims woman or muslim man to wear tight clothes and engage in certain behavior, its ur business. But when u say "this is Islam", then i object. Don';t do what "terrorist"do, justify their desires by declaring its Islam. And updating what is Halal and what is Haram. Brother Muhammed Musselman gave a strong Hadith on aisha but it went w/o reply.
05/26/2004 03:26:38 PM
This whole discussion has become very bizarre to me. I asked Numah04 to answer a question for me. Yet no answer, except Haircover was before Islam like the communities that Originated the Semetic people ( communities of the Prophets)wasn't a form of Islam. When as Muslims, we believe that Muhammed(PBUH) was given the Quran to finalize the work of Previous Prophets (including those we do not know about). But apparently from reading the reply on headcovering the women wore it because it predated Islam. These argument on the Changing of Islamic principles was last seen in Europe during the Enlightenment (notice its called enlightenment). When Christianity in Europe became fractured into what we know today as a secular, areligious society.
05/26/2004 01:16:11 PM
I have a question for usama. When I am out in my khimar and abaya and a man approaches me and tells me that he thinks I'm beautiful, is this my fault? Those does happen to me often. Of course it's always non-Mulsim men that do this. Or I have been told that I'm "too pretty to cover" by non-Muslim men and women. I just go about my daily business covered. I don't flirt with or approach men on the street. And I try to keep my gaze lowered or avoid conversation with strange men that is not completely necessary, but yet men still flirt with me. Is this somehow my fault?
05/26/2004 01:01:22 PM
Even when I am covered from head to toe, men still flirt with me. So I guess the next thing someone like usama would tell me is that I need to cover my face or never leave my house. Should I live a life of seclusion out of the fear that a man may find me attractive? At what point are men responsible for their own behaviour?
05/26/2004 12:31:50 PM
usama, You have me a little confused. Please explain how freedom and license "morph" into oppression. You may be innacurate in your definitions of these items. I do not see a connection between freedom and oppression; quite the opposite. And you are right; we should stop ourselves before we move toward adultery, as we know sexual misconduct is damaging. I am confused as to why the total responsibility for this relies on women's exterior and not on (at least equally) men's interior state of mind. It would seem to me that the state of mind would lead to a more truly spiritual, religious state. And I think that is the point that supporters of women's right to have as much freedom of dress as men do would make. Peace.
05/26/2004 12:26:56 PM
By the way, who runs the porno industry, strip clubs, sex advertisements, slavery rings, even the fashion industry? Who knows how to market to the demand? Who knows what the demand is? Do not men understand themselves?
05/26/2004 12:24:17 PM
If the boiling pot begins to steam, should you turn it down, or complain about the noise?
05/26/2004 12:22:31 PM
In recollection, Hasan's paradox: tight jeans and avowing modesty- reminds me of the Britney Spears quandary: claiming purity but presumably unaware of titilating male errogenous zones. In fact, this seems like many women's character flaw: I want to be in public looking sexy with the tight shirt and jeans, silky hair and painted face but don't want men to act TOO MUCH on it. Desire me from afar. Come hither and STOP. But this initiates the heightened sexual inclinations in men which contributes to so much, including vengeful mysogyny (strip clubs, porno, prostitution, sex slavery and worse).
05/26/2004 12:13:58 PM
If a society doesn't care about the effects individuals have on other individuals, then the doors of corruption spreads. That is what secular democratic capitalism offers to human societies. "Freedom" 'morphes into 'license' which leans towards 'oppression'. This happens in economics, politics, social relations. If I walk down the street showing my male beauty and don't care if men's wives lust after me, then I contribute to it all.
05/26/2004 12:06:48 PM
The fact that Hasan thinks wearing tight jeans is modesty demonstrates that humans cannot be empowered to dictate the laws that govern mankind. Humans, that means WOMEN TOO, are limited in knowledge, biased, differential. Only the Lord of the Worlds can dictate to men and women how to dress.
05/26/2004 11:49:19 AM
Yes Qur'an teaches modest dress AND modest behavior. Just because a woman's hair isn't covered doesn't mean she's immodest. Besides, a man that gets erection over hair is the one with the problem, not me for not covering it.
05/26/2004 11:40:48 AM
Bismillah. is there anyone else who thinks its strange that religion puts so much emphasis on modesty?? Not really. Modest clothing is a shield from the immodest. Islam teaches don't approach adultry. That means not only don't commit adultry, but don't do anything that can lead to adultry (or fornication). Peace and guidence.
05/26/2004 11:29:12 AM
It's not God that is so intolerate. It is Muslim men that want to use a piece of cloth to control women. It's usually men getting all up in arms about women that don't wear it.
05/26/2004 02:41:02 AM
I'm not intolerant, and generally respect all religions, but find it strange, indeed, that anyone would actually believe God likes us better with clothing - of any kind - than the way He made us. To wit, Jesus said, in the Gospel of Thomas: "When will I return? When you take off your clothes without shame, and trample them under your feet like little children." This teaching clearly indicates that we must return to our true nature if we wish to regain the grace God originally bestowed on us.
05/26/2004 02:38:53 AM
is there anyone else who thinks its strange that religion puts so much emphasis on modesty?? didn't God create the human body? i mean what is the big deal? God created us the way we are. what's wrong with that? i'm not suggesting dressing like a prostitute, but some of the lengths people go through for the sake of modesty is absurd. its like you're saying the way you were made by God is wrong.
05/25/2004 08:46:17 AM
I never said it was inappropriate. You are putting words in my mouth, twisting what I said in order to prove your point. I never said women did not wear it. I never said the Prophet discouraged it. I said that it is not an Islamic invention. That was simply the dress at the time. Muslims speak as if women did not start wearing the veil until Islam and that is not true. If the women during the Prophets time were wearing feather boas, does that make it Islamic? No it does not. The bottom line is, we were not commanded in the Qur'an to cover our hair and no one can produce a verse that says that we were. I'm not against hijab because I wear it. I wear it when I feel it is necessary to wearit and when I don't feel it is, I don't. For example, I'm learning to play golf. I am NOT wearing hijab while playing golf or any other sport in 90 degree weather.
05/25/2004 03:51:56 AM
Here's a question? Do we know if the Christian wife (PBUH) of Muhammed (PBUH) wore the hijab and head scarf. And if so, did she do so for societal/cultural/geographical reasons or for the purely spiritual reason? Peace/Salaam/Shalom, s
05/24/2004 04:51:11 PM
A'ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) said: "May Allah have mercy on the Muhajir women. When Allah (swt) revealed (...that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...) (Quran 24:31), they tore their wrappers and covered their heads and faces with them." (Narrated by Bukhari)
05/24/2004 04:50:55 PM
that is why i included the societies of the previous Prophets. If the headcovering was deamed inappropriate the Prophet would have fixed it thru revelation like many other things in Quran. Now as to what ur saing, the Bosom thing was a continuation of what the people already had. Remember the Faith of Islam was established before Muhammed (PBUH). Muhammed (PBUH) finalized the works of the previous Prophets, even the ones ALLAH said was not named to us. so the answer is Yes, the women of the Prophets (PBUH) generation wore hijab. And ALLAH used the verse u mention to finalize the perameters...
05/24/2004 04:45:28 PM
I never said they didn't wear a hair covering. I said that they did, but this practice was NOT STARTED at the advent of Islam, non-Muslim were already wearing them, but they were draped behind the back and they dressed with their breasts partially exposed. That was the fashion at the time. They were commanded to cover their breasts with their veils. The woman's breasts are a part of her sexual beauty. They are her private parts. Since the women exposed them, they were told to cover them. Being commanded to use a hair covering to conceal the breast is not the same as a commandment to cover the hair. They were covering their hair before Islam and once those women accepted Islam, Allah told them to cover their breasts with their khimars.
05/24/2004 04:32:07 PM
Numah04- can u asnwer the questioni wish i can pose to sister Asma on the women in Mecca and Medina at the time of the Prophet (PBUH). "In either Mecca or Medina in the life of Muhammed (PBUH) (or even with any other Prophet and their societies). Did the women of their society NOT wear hijab or head covering??"
05/24/2004 04:18:03 PM
Surah 24, Ayat 31 states: "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms..."
05/24/2004 04:06:08 PM
Bismillah. The command was to draw their veils around their bosom. Where specifically did you read that?
05/24/2004 03:36:55 PM
The command was to draw their veils around their bosom. To draw means to pull something around you. If they weren't already wearing a veil, then there was nothing for them to draw around their breasts. The command wasn't "put a veil on your head to cover your hair, then draw it around your bosom." The commad was to take the veils they were already wearing and use it to cover their partially-exposed breasts. There is no place in the Qur'an that says we are to cover our hair. We were commanded to cover our bodies. How does not covering the hair make a woman immodest? The Qur'an does not say that a woman who shows her hair is being immodest.
05/24/2004 03:32:42 PM
When we were commanded to dress modestly, Muslim men were commanded to dress modestly as well. Women during that time were already wearing a veil. The practice of wearing a veil was not exclusive to Muslim women during those times, nor did veiling start at the revelation of that verse. Woen of all faiths wore veils then. They wore their veils drapped behind their backs and the bodice of their dresses partially exposed their bosom. Cont'd.
05/24/2004 02:44:54 PM
All very good points, qtp3. Peace and guidence.
05/24/2004 02:25:11 PM
Numah04 I hear u about domestic abuse. This issue have some men in denial. Because like i mentioned before, if we are supposed to look into the life of Muhammed (PBUH) as a role model then we would know he NEVER beat his women and forbid the women to be beaten like an animal.So if it was good enough for Muhammed(PBUH) then it sould be good enough for us men. And no Muslim would say their way is better than Muhammed (PBUH). So there's one Muslim Man who condemns domestic violence:)
05/24/2004 02:15:44 PM
I have a question for sister Asma?? In either Mecca or Medina in the life of Muhammed (PBUH) (or even with any other Prophet). Did the women of their society NOT wear hijab or head covering?? If those societies are to be our role models as Muslims then the answer to this question is the answer to the debate.
05/24/2004 02:08:08 PM
( no disrespect) I think the Asma, Asra Nomani( remember her on tantrika), and Irshad Manji (muslim feminist) are doing a minor false impression of Islam that the Terrorist are doing at a major level. Both giving the wrong impression of Islam. This one is easier because its at the opposite extreme. All three of thenm have more issues than islam. Its more of an assimulation problem. notice all three former contributers of beliefnet comes from Immigrant households, surburban at that, and seems to want to be more anglo-american than Islamic or even Asian. I am a Hispanic and notice this among my people. I converted to islam and the faith is what it is, Alhumdulilah. It would be nice to hear a Muslimah from America who has dealt with her identity to share on Modesty. And live Islam!!I pray that the sisters mention solves the identity problem they face.
05/24/2004 12:33:36 PM
Bismillâh. Hi Miraj, Qur'an 33:59 calls on women to draw their jalbâbs (cloaks) all over themselves. Scholars agree this includes the hair. There are differing opinions on if it includes the face. Muslims are also commanded to not adopt the dress habits of non-Muslims in numerous Hadiths. The idea is that the Muslim should be visibly distinquisable from non-Muslims. I agree that it isn't about Arab culture, however. The issue is modesty AND visible identity. As an American, I'm not going to wear Pakistani clothes or Saudi clothes. I wear loose fitting shirts and pants. I also wear a kufi cap when I go out in public, and I keep a beard. Anyone can see me and identify as a Muslim. And when a woman wears hijab, a univerally accepted manner of dress for Muslim women, she also has distinquished herself visibly, in accordance with the Sunnah. So there are two points that need to be considered. Peace and guidence.
05/24/2004 11:34:46 AM
The Quran contains no command for women to cover their hair. It certainly doesn't command us to conceal it either. The most popular hadith about covering all but the hands and the face is invalid with a broken chain. The Quran does say that we were given raiment to cover our shame, but the best covering is righteousness. A lot of Islam has been coated with a veneer of Arab culture, which is not binding. We are not obliged to dress as a desert Bedoin does or become an Arab because we are Muslim. Following that logic, if Islam was founded in Polynesia, I guess we'd all be wearing grass skirts. cont.
05/24/2004 11:34:34 AM
While I may not agree with all of what Hasan believes is allowed, I realize that she has to find her own way as a modern Muslim woman born into a culture that doesn't set down the proper Islamic standards either way. I can relate to that. All of those who wish to dictate the interpretation of modesty for others (including "scholars", who don't all agree anyway) need to remember that on Judgement Day, you will answer for yourself and what you believe, not the beliefs and actions of others. You are the only person you can control; remember that, then present yourself accordingly. Salaam
05/24/2004 11:16:20 AM
I meant to say Muslim men aren't speaking out. How often do you hear Muslim men speak out against domestic violence? Hardly ever. But they have a stroke and 10 kittens if a Muslimah doesn't cover her hair.
05/24/2004 11:11:20 AM
Bismillâh. Numah_04 5/24/04 11:06:35 AM I just find it so interesting that Muslim men are so quick to issue pseudo fatwas with regards to women's issues while Muslim men do whatever they want. Yes, this is hypocrasy. Muslim men need to adhere to religious principles as well, and I believe we are best served in making sure we are practicing these beliefs before preaching it to others. In otherwords, there is something to be said for leading by example. Peace and guidence.
05/24/2004 11:06:34 AM
I just find it so interesting that Muslim men are so quick to issue pseudo fatwas with regards to women's issues while Muslim men do whatever they want. Muslim men are speaking out against terrorist acts (committed by men in the name of Islam) are the abuse that many Muslim women endure in the name of Islam, but they are so quick to criticize a Muslimah for not wearing a piece of cloth on their head.
05/24/2004 09:46:31 AM
asma bhen - the zero is not an invention of the arabs, but a mathematical concept (together with the decimal system) adopted by the arabs from the hindus of india and thence transmitted to the west. some medieval arab mathematicians even went so far as referring to mathematics as the 'indian science'.
05/24/2004 09:23:50 AM
Rahhmaa Where does it say in Qur'an that a woman is commiting sin by not wearing hijab? Please show me the exact verse?
05/24/2004 09:08:26 AM
Bismillah. And women should definitely not be forced by law (as in Iran, for example) to wear headscarves. I have yet to visit any community that does not set some standard for modest dress. Companies set standards in their offices; usually women are not permitted to wear skirts above the knee and nobody is allowed to wear shirts with anything vulgar written on it. Likewise, you have to wear shirts and shoes when in public buildings, etc. So policy makers do have the right to establish dress code for purposes of the public good. What goes on in public is a public matter, and what goes on in ones home is a private matter. con't
05/24/2004 09:08:15 AM
con't The Islamic standard is just a little higher, that's all. Respectfully, you say no government has the right to require hijab in public. Your basis is the Western standard, which you uphold to be a universal standard. What I ask you to understand is that there are other standards, and these other standards have legitimacy too. The Western standard has no special mandate from the Divine, and it is this belief that only the Western standard is the correct one that has run the West afoul of other cultures who have other standards. con't
05/24/2004 09:07:49 AM
con't We Muslims do believe in human rights. Islam upholds human rights. But as Muslims we also firmly believe in God, and that God has rights over us too. When God has decreed a thing in our scripture, this is God's right as our Creator and Sustainer. This is what we believe. We also believe that God is the most just and that He decrees what is best for us, whether we see the benefit or not. To say that Muslims must embrace "modernity" and put away "archaic" dress codes says nothing. Modernity is just a convenient excuse to abandon religious practices. As I mentioned in previous posts, Muslims have a mandate to be an example. Modesty is part of Imân, the quality of the believer. Peace and guidence.
05/24/2004 07:17:05 AM
CORRECTION FROM BELOW: "A woman can not wear hijab and still be modest." SHOULD READ "A woman can still be modest and not wear hijab."
05/24/2004 07:15:31 AM
Bismillâh. Rahhmaa, I would hesitate to draw any real comparison between the terrorist and the woman who isn't wearing hijab. The woman hasn't killed anyone, nor done anything that would draw a death-sentance like the terrorist has. With all the flack about the hijab, we need to remember the underlying spirit is that of modesty. A woman can wear hijab and not be modest by intention or speech. A woman can not wear hijab and still be modest. Muslims have a "dress code" however, both men and women. For women, it is covering the hair. Clothing should also be generally feminine, such as a skirt or dress, or pants styled in a way that they couldn't be confused with men's pants. Likewise, men's dress should also be modest and characterist of men's dress. A person's culture can factor into the equation (As an American, I'm not going to wear Pakistani or Saudi clothing, obviously). Peace and guidence.
05/23/2004 11:39:54 PM
What exactly do you mean? Are you equating a Muslim woman's decision not to wear a hijab with terrorism? If so, that's hardly a reasonable comparison... Both she and the terrorist have something in common: they distort Islam and make claims about the religion that are false. If someone distorts the deen (religion) we are to point out their errors. We are just doing our duty
05/23/2004 04:10:58 PM
Bismillâh. Hi Lindenmeadow, Yeah, I suppose I do hold strongly to my opinions =) But then I am perhaps what you would call a "fundamentalist" muslim as I advocate sticking to the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet. What I advocate is the orthodox teachings of Islam. I don't take the "literalist" approach, however; I do consider interpretations within moral and historical contexts. In regards to the subject of modesty, I think everyone knows my position. I would like to add one point. The Qur'an clearly states that the Muslims are to be an example for all mankind. That means we should set a high standard of morality, one that everyone else should look up to, rather than adopting someone else's standard. con't
05/23/2004 04:10:44 PM
con't We Muslims must be convinced we have guidence from God, and should be thankful for that by upholding this guidence. If we don't, then we are evildoers. I would also like to agree that there is often an attitude of pride within the Muslim community. Pride has no place in Islam, and God has condemned the proud. The best of us are the ones who uphold righteousness. One scholar gave me a bit of advice; whenever I see someone I feel superior to(this is human nature), I should pray for him. Peace and guidence.
05/23/2004 03:46:12 PM
Anyone think she has done a book signing in Mecca in "tight jeans" and no headcover? If she really wants to "break stereotypes", lets see her first publicity trip to Iran. See if her lack of sterotypes is correct?? IF she was not arrested, that would break stereotypes. MY guess is that she will stay here in America with her opinion. Which is why America is GREAT!!!!
05/23/2004 10:32:28 AM
rahhmaa, What exactly do you mean? Are you equating a Muslim woman's decision not to wear a hijab with terrorism? If so, that's hardly a reasonable comparison... That would be crazy. A Muslim woman, like Asama Hasa, not wearing a headscarf is hardly doing violence to anyone. You can't draw a connection between her and a terrorist... Please, let's keep things in proper perspective.
05/23/2004 10:27:32 AM
ronrico, Indeed, no government has any business forcing anyone to live under the dictates of any religion. Alas, a lot of countries still have a long way to go in such matters... Maybe they'll come out of their barbarism one of these days. Hopefully... "Power corrupts." Indeed. It corrupts religions too. Keep religions out of power. It's better for everyone that way, including religious people.
05/23/2004 10:23:10 AM
many Muslim women honestly choose not to wear one. And their decision, whether to wear one or not, is strictly their business and should be respected. While it is their choice, muslims are to enjoin good and forbid the evil. For a muslim to say that this is not a part of Islam, is manmade, is cultural, is denying a part of Islam. While it is often played out with hijab here on message boards (because everyone, muslims and non seem to be obsessed with this piece of clothe), this goes for other issues as well, like terrorism. We don't sit back and say "it's their personal choice to interpret Islam in this manner." No, we speak out against it.
05/23/2004 10:20:30 AM
mohammed.mussulman, Hello again! I see you a lot in these discussion threads. You seem to be quite opinionated. But I guess I am too! ;-) If a Muslim woman wants to wear a hijab, or even a veil, out of a sincere desire to follow her interpretation of Islam, I'll gladly respect her decision and I'll definitely support her right to do so, even though I don't share her religious beliefs. I don't have any quarrel with them, as long as they don't take on a holier-than-thou attitude about it. I once read a Muslim woman's defense of her wearing a hijab. Frankly, whether she realized it or not, her remarks sounded like thinly disguised bragging, like she was proud of herself for being so "modest." And women should definitely not be forced by law (as in Iran, for example) to wear headscarves. So, I guess we'll respectfully disagree with each other to an extent. Best wishes!
05/23/2004 10:10:27 AM
smc93, I think you hit the nail on the head. In huge religions like Christianity and Islam, you're going to find tremendous differences among adherents as to interpreting and applying their scriptures. For instance, some think it's wrong for women to wear pants, or make up, or jewelry, or to cut their hair... or some think it's wrong to go to movies... the list can go on and on. To each their own. Let's just not be judgmental toward one another over such things. And the same to Muslims. Some Muslims will insist, for instance, that a Muslim woman is required by the Qur'an or hadith to wear a hijab. Others, however, disagree. And many Muslim women honestly choose not to wear one. And their decision, whether to wear one or not, is strictly their business and should be respected.
05/23/2004 09:42:56 AM
"There is no compulsion in religion." (The Qur'an 2:256) How much less suffering there would be in the world if Muslims read their Qur'an with this in mind.
05/23/2004 01:42:59 AM
Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim. Yes I applauded Debbie for enjoying the freedom that Ar-Rahman promised in the Bible. The key to true renewal in Islam is the promise of Ar-Rahman in Koran 19:87 & 20:109, the only intercession. This promise of the Most Gracious refers to God's promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David, that Allah will bless all nations on earth through the seed, the Messiah/the Most Gracious Son(Genesis 22:18, 17:19, 26:4, Isaiah 42:6-7). Only in that way can we know Allah as Abraham did.
05/23/2004 01:36:33 AM
In the name of Allah the Father, the Most Gracious Son, the Most Merciful Holy Spirit. I disagreed that Muhammad was a feminist. The Koran 4:3 allowed a man to have four wives, "... marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four..." Muslim countries still practices polygamy. Muhammad himself had between ten to twenty wives simultaneously.
05/22/2004 11:02:44 PM
Bismillah. Hi ronrico, I agree that Islam is not about 7th century Arab culture. And I also agree that there are perhaps more important issues facing Muslim women (or should I say Muslims in general) today than headscarves. There is always room in Islam for renewal. However, renewal must stem from the authentic Islamic sources (Qur'an and Hadith). As the Qur'an says (and I'm paraphrasing here), anyone who does not judge by how God has judged has gone astray. In otherwords, the revelation of the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet are Islam's guiding lights, not the glitter of "modernity" which has no basis in scripture. In short, Islam can be modern, but Muslims must not go astray of our texts. Peace and guidence.
05/22/2004 08:03:13 PM
It is hard to believe those who say Islam means "Peace", seeing how much war is made over a piece of cloth!!! In it basic principles (the five pillars), Islam seems the most sensible of all religions. In the details of how it is often enforced around the world, it makes Muhammed look like a tyrant. I hope Muslims will awake to the original spirit of Islam, and make a break with the past, as Muhammed broke with the past of his time. Only God is eternal. The 7th century is not.
05/22/2004 07:47:05 PM
I'm a university chaplain in Britain and we have many Muslim students. The sisters are evidently from many backgrounds; I say this because there is no uniformity in colour of cloth from the shoulder down or on the head. Neither is there uniformity in the style of trousers worn under the hijab, or the style of shoes (some very trendy and otherwise viewed as 'sexy'). I've known married women from the Indian sub-continent who do not wear the head scarf and unmarried women from N Africa who don't wear the head scarf. But I would say that ALL of them have been modest, by my definition, which obviously may not correspond with the Qu'ran! :-) It seems to me that the variance of the Muslim practice of modesty is a bit like the number of Christian denominations in the US of A! There is a lot of room for interpretation... it seems. Salaam/Shalom/Peace, smc93
05/22/2004 07:17:06 PM
Bismillâh. Hi lindenmeadow, You said, And that is what they should be judged by: their character qualities, not whether they follow some manmade, archaic and puritanical dress codes. Respectfully, I disagree. 1. We Muslims do not believe that modest dress (for both men and women, which includes women covering their hair), as a man-made dress code, nor do we consider the concepts of modest beliefs, speech, and dress to be archaic. Both the revealed text of the Qur'an and the Prophet have made clear signs that such acceptance, speech, conduct, and dress is essential for the Muslim. 2. Abandoning religious practices in order to embrace "modernity" is fuel for apostacy. Again, Islam is not just an "internal" thing. It does require appropriate conduct in speech and dress. Those who reject what is in the Qur'an or what the Prophet has lawfully legislated is an apostate according to Islamic teachings. con't
05/22/2004 07:16:56 PM
con't I will tell you this. When I see a Muslim woman wearing hijab, I am happy. I say to myself, "Here is a strong woman who when others are 'uncovering' she is covering herself." When I see a woman who isn't wearing hijab, I just see here like everyone else. Of course, appearances can be misleading. The covered woman could just be showing off, and the uncovered woman may be sincere in everything else. I keep that in mind. But I do honor and respect our veiled Muslim women.
05/22/2004 05:21:51 PM
Ok, I normally try my best to be polite to people in these discussions. After reading the posts of Oneness34 and now SwordofTruth, I'll speak up... First, are you two being serious or are you being facetious/sarcastic with your comments? If you're being serious, all I can say is you don't have a !#@%& clue what you're talking about. For instance, my mother is a very devout Christian woman. She does not cover her hair in public and she wears pants. However, she is anything but a "whorish woman". She and many other women like her are some of the most morally upright people you'll ever encounter. And for you people who are being so judgmental toward Asma Hasan... please, there's no need for such mud-slinging. I've known Muslim women who chose not to wear a headscarf, but they were still wonderful people. And that is what they should be judged by: their character qualities, not whether they follow some manmade, archaic and puritanical dress codes.
05/22/2004 01:01:55 AM
Women do seem to have it worse, when it comes to the cold stares and snide remarks. My wife, who wears the headscarf, seems to draw more negative attention than I do with my beard and kufi cap. I think it is because women are perceived as "vulnerable" and the persons doing the intimidating are cowards.
05/21/2004 11:23:04 PM
im mixed race christian ..i usually wear long skirts and a head scarf during the winter ..i get mistaken for muslim all the time .....i think most american muslim womwe dont wear the scarf (at least after sept 11 )because of fear of abuse ...ive gotten some seriously dirty looks and ive actually felt that i would have been attacked if i hadnt stared the person down (99% of the time theyre white males...oddly enought i never get that reaction from any females) ......personally ive got muslim relatives so i feel offended by the stupid prejudice
05/21/2004 07:21:19 AM
Rahhmaa, I suppose it's attempt to present the idea that Islam can be "hip" and "modern" and that it's all a matter of the heart (and that fundamentalist Muslims are extremists). But as I mentioned in my previous post, Muslims are required to affirm their faith in words and actions too, and these are spelled out by the Qur'an and the Sunnah. I agree that Bnet needs to get a bonafide Islamic scholar to write articles. Peace and guidence.
05/21/2004 01:33:49 AM
I'm guessing she missed the word khimar in surah 24 verse 31. Why oh why won't bnet get Tariq Ramadan, or Khalid Abul Fadl, or someone with Islamic knowledge and training to write an article. Arm chair alims just don't cut it.
05/20/2004 11:04:10 PM
Bismillah. The majority opinion of Salafi scholars is that imân (the quality of the believer) requires three things: affirmation in the heart, affirmation on the tongue, and also affirmation in deeds. It's not just an "internal thing". Wearing "tight jeans" hardly qualifies as modesty in deeds, and likewise, the majority opinion is that the covering of the head/hair is a required act. Modesty is clearly tied to imân. Hazrat Ibn Umar says that Allah's Messenger came upon a man of Ansaar who was advising his brother regarding modesty (not to over do it). Allah's Messenger said, "Leave him alone, for modesty is part of Imân."(Bukhari, Muslim) I believe Ms. Hasan is perhaps a bit confused.
05/20/2004 06:18:03 PM
Oneness34, would you please get your history straight? And your Bible? I doubt the Bible says "men must wear pants and women can't" because at the time it was written, NO ONE wore pants (at least not in that area)!! Men and women both wore robes. And where does it say that women must keep their hair covered? Wicca as a religion is practiced in this country by hundreds of thousands of people (estimates range as high as 1 million). Yes, it's a serious religion. As for presenting "liberal" Islam here, I think it's a reaction to the fear generated by "radical" Islam that's in the news. I think Beliefnet is trying to show those of us who know very little about the religion that those radicals aren't the mainstream. Please, if you have a conservative view on Islam, write an article. I would love to learn more.
05/20/2004 05:03:51 PM
Con't Briefly, Wicca is a fairly new interpretation of the oldest religion in the world (Goddess worship). It draws from the Druids and other Earth-based, Divine Feminine religions predominately located in Western Europe before it was Western Europe. It isn't the hocus pocus Hollywood and some would like to make it out to be. I do not practice Wicca as a religion however I do see some very wise ideology in this faith. Like I stated earlier there are similiarities in religions a good example would be- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Christian). First do no harm in all that you do for it will come back to you threefold, or sometime stated as tenfold (Wicca).
05/20/2004 05:03:09 PM
It isn't nice to attack another’s religious beliefs just because you don't see its validity. A problem today is people concentrate on differences in religions instead of similarities or trying to understand and know (not practice) another religion. Look at the Wicca pages, you might see some of its history and see its religious validity for those who choose to practice.
05/20/2004 04:40:45 PM
Why is it that this sister is so popular on beliefnet? She is not a scholar, and she doesn't have any type of intellectual training in religion or liberal arts. That would be fine if her opinions made any sense. She just sort of rambles on without any direction or substantiated facts. Kind of like Irshad Manji. Is every Western raised muslim woman going to get a book deal?
05/20/2004 03:21:46 PM
Hiding women under thick cloth and placing other unequal restrictions on them just turns them into bitter, pecking hens. Women can be real human beings without dressing like prostitutes, too. Islam should give them a chance. And all men should stop blaming their own lack of self-control on women.
05/20/2004 02:26:03 PM
Wicca is only 50 years old. But since when do the amount of people who believe something add to the validity of that belief? Shouldn't everyone have the freedom to believe what they please, regardless of the opinions of others? Elphie
05/20/2004 12:17:25 PM
Usama, I think mannyi is onto something. I'd love to see the other view presented. Why shouldn't your name be on the byline? I say, go for it! On the other hand, Shmuel, yes, Wicca and/or neo-Paganism is much bigger than you'd think, or than I really thought growing up in a conservative family. Look how many herb shops and book stores are in a given community. It seems that "everything old" really is new again. Blessings to all, kat. oh, ps, loved the article too. I could hang out with this woman. And have fun!
05/20/2004 11:25:52 AM
usama Maybe it's only the "liberal" Muslims who bother to talk to us outsiders? Have you yourself approached beliefnet with a proposed article? Perhaps you should. As the sheikh described here said, if you don't like the book you're reading, write your own book.
05/20/2004 10:37:22 AM
usama - Personally, I think BeliefNet wants to promote its own brand of "you're OK, I'm OK" kind of religion. You can see it in the rather esoteric choice they have made in their "religions" in the first place. I mean, like, is Wiccan really something alot of people are in to? Give me a break. About the article, and a question for Muslims: Is there not a "standard" or almost standard interpretation of the Quran? And if so, then does it not say that women must cover their hair? And if so, then is this young lady such a scholar that she has the moral legitimacy for being such an interpreter ("Iman" I believe is the term - Priest in Catholicism or Rabbi in Judaism) ?
05/20/2004 09:54:16 AM
I absolutly think it's wonderful to promote thiss book, things like this need to be said. Now mind you the author is a Sufi, like myself, not apart of the mainstreme, I would love to see a Sunni come out with a simular book. I think that would be great. Until then, may God bless her. Allah-Akbur...
05/20/2004 09:46:27 AM
This is a great article. It is important to understand that a person must be modest on the inside before they can wear a hijab, and the hijab is a choice for Muslim women. Many people see the hijab as a form of oppression, but they need to understand in the early Islamic days, women who wore the hijab were highly educated, and the primary reason why the hijab was worn was because if a woman were to teach a group of men then she would wear it so that the relationship would be of a teacher and student and not that of a personal relationship.
05/20/2004 09:26:47 AM
I enjoyed Ms. Hasan's earlier book and her two articles here were great as well. I was afraid it was going to be another never-ending hijab article but was pleasantly suprised. Her article on sufism was even better thought - check it out!
05/20/2004 09:03:23 AM
Prejudice and bigotry against conservative Islamic culture which isn't about terrorism or fanaticism. Or does Beliefnet have an alternative agenda?
05/20/2004 09:00:55 AM
Another woman espousing her BRAND of Islam? Why does BELIEFNET continue with this agenda against Islamic culture? BNET gives conservatives, right wing evangelicals, and those who have made numerous slurs such as Robertson, Bauer, and now Boteach, towards Islam but it gives not one Muslim conservative a voice. BNET's AGENDA is to 'lift the veil' on Islam? But is afraid to 'lift the veil' on its own prejudice.
05/19/2004 11:58:20 PM
"If you asked me what I loved most about religion, I would say the stories/myths. Why? They were.... ...fun. : ) " Oh, sure, they're "fun" unless you're told they're not MYTHS but FACT...then you believe that this character called the "devil" and his "demons" could get hold of you...and beware, 'cause they can disguise themselves as "angels"...not fun for a child, much less an adult who carries that baggage into adulthood.... Been there, done that... Peace <
05/19/2004 08:57:08 PM
And it should be noted that standards of modesty vary tremendously from one time and place to another. And really, any standard of "modesty" is ultimately arbitrary and artificial, the product of cultural conditioning. There is no absolute standard for what constitutes modest clothing, hairstyles, etc... And Hasan rightly points out a huge problem with puritanical dress codes: they can lead to self-righteous attitudes, unjust condemnation of others who have different views, and adherence to the letter of the rule while finding all kinds of other loopholes. I mean, a woman wearing a hijab to be "modest" while showing cleavage at the same time?? LOL! All I can say to Hasan is "more power to you! You go, girl!" ;-)
05/19/2004 08:49:01 PM
Well, Hasan's remarks are refreshing. Alas, if only Muslims like her were the dominant force in the Muslim world today.... I was interested by her remark that the vast majority of Muslim women in the US don't wear a headscarf. And I especially liked her comment "Modesty comes from within." Amen to that! A person should be judged by, as MLK said, "the content of their character" and not whether they follow some archaic puritanical rules. If a Muslim woman honestly wishes to wear a hijab, I'll gladly support her right to do so. I would only have a quarrel with them if they take on a self-righteous mentality about it and look down their nose on women who do not wear one, just like I dislike it when some Christians, for instance, act as if everyone has to adhere to precisely the same standards of dress and behavior that they do in order to be "holy."
05/19/2004 07:02:11 PM
I think this author touches on a point that is really important and about the children. What is FUN about your religion? Why should I be satisfied to be a part of something if I can't ENJOY IT? Most ppl expect their kids to automatically be a member of their faith. I, too, when I was younger really had a hard time going to temple or praying or doing anything, because I was bored by my religion. There was nothing fun about reciting hymn after hymn, I love how Christian churches in America do SO much to encourage the younger members by having after-school clubs, discussions, and fun activities. No temple I ever went to took that much interest in cultivating religion and happiness in its youth. If you asked me what I loved most about religion, I would say the stories/myths. Why? They were.... ...fun. : )
05/19/2004 06:36:14 PM
Most people in the world want to have a good income, have some fun, raise their families etc. It is the politicians, religious clerics and other institutional segments of a nation that bring about war, hate, killing, and genocide. This is due to their endless desire for POWER, MONEY, CONTROL. If you do not support RELIGION, or a particular POLITICAL PARTY, power is reduced.