'We Have Sinned Against You'

A leading evangelical speaks at the Mormon Tabernacle and says evangelicals have spread lies about LDS beliefs.

UomoDelGhiaccio

05/01/2011 11:08:30 AM

I find this interesting the debate of if Mormons are truly christians. Of course the real question is what is the defination of a christian? Evangelicals typically point to the "Trinity" as proof positive, however historically there has been much debate and controversy regarding the "Trinity" doctrine. I personally believe it has more to do with a individual person rather than a religion or religious institution. Looking back at history, the Nicene and other councils were much more political in nature than theological. Religious Institutions have all had their sorted pasts with items that the faithful hide or minimize. There are many examples of the "So Called Faithful" of all faiths being instead downright evil in the name of God. Are there differences between Mormons and lets say Baptists? Yes, there are and that is exactly why there are Mormons and Baptists. What percentage do they agree on and what percentage do they disagree on? I venture a guess that they agree on more than they disagree on. Yes, there is some differences in dogma, but it is dogma none the less. There is example after example of bias and crimes against Mormons in our history, with much of it done at the hands of American "Christian" people. The bias still exists today and even with this website, I find that there is a bias regarding Mormons as being non-christian in the registration process. When picking you religion, there is a item for Mormon listed and one for Christian listed, but individual christian faiths such as Lutheran and Baptist are not listed. This implies that Mormons are not christians. If this site is truly unbiased then why single out Mormons without listing out other christian faiths? I speculate that your site is in fact biased. Why not list out the various coptic christian faiths or eastern orthodox churches who also have differences with the American Evangelical Movement? The greatest sin is the blind ignorance of much of the American Evangelical Movement and the continuation of the lies and distortions. The truth is that people will believe different things and that is OK. Stop being so vain in thinking that Everybody should be a carbon copy of you!

rbmath

07/28/2007 02:25:04 PM

I would like to know if the LDS are going to repent of the heretical teachings. What about the great sins against God in their teachings ?? it is they who should repent

LDSLinda

09/10/2006 10:17:13 PM

>>So when is Mormonism going to apologize for the 150 years of lies it has told about traditional orthodox Christianity? You know, the apostate abominations. The Protestant Ministers portrayed as "the hirelings of Satan" in Mormon temple ceremonies.>The only thing this article tells me is that the speaker from Fuller Theological has a degree of Christian virtue that the Mormon organization should hope to aspire to.<< Or you should aspire to.

Spots7

08/03/2006 05:48:57 PM

So when is Mormonism going to apologize for the 150 years of lies it has told about traditional orthodox Christianity? You know, the apostate abominations. The Protestant Ministers portrayed as "the hirelings of Satan" in Mormon temple ceremonies. The Catholic church characterized as the "whore of Babylon". It is truely astounding to me how any Mormon could complain about "lies" that have been told about Mormonism when Mormonism's lies about Christianity are what it's founded on and continues to use as a recruiting tool. The only thing this article tells me is that the speaker from Fuller Theological has a degree of Christian virtue that the Mormon organization should hope to aspire to.

LDSLinda

01/16/2006 10:00:19 AM

MyPenguin, because they want to use whatever they can to try to destroy the church. Anything, be it fair or foul.

MyPenguin

01/11/2006 04:06:26 PM

Why do people usually talk about things the L.D.S. church may or not have done that happened decades ago?

LDSLinda

12/25/2005 05:18:02 AM

"Mormons like so many other people are wonderful and peaceful people, but that does not equate LDS doctrine with the Faith delivered once" Jesus said that a bad tree will only yield bad fruit. If our church is wrong, then how can it yield wonderful, peaceful people? How can it yield a people that love Christ every bit as much as you do? That want to follow Him with every fiber of their being? "Let us endeavor to "study" and . . . "hold on firmly to the Truth." Amen. And you know, the more I study, the more convinced I am that I am right where God wants me. The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, and Pearl of Great Price, they all are the word of God, as far as I'm concerned, and the more I study all of them, the more I am convinced that they are the word of God and that I am doing God's will, and following Him exactly as He wants me to. If I am not following Him to your standards, I'm sorry, but I would rather follow God than man.

LDSLinda

12/25/2005 05:16:40 AM

"Jesus was clear about false teaching leading many into error. With all respect Truth is the unshakeable Rock, on which the Church was built." And like Pilate asked Christ, What is truth? When it comes to matters of faith, everyone has what they consider to be truth. If there is only one truth, then why isn't everyone following one truth? It's very presumptuous of anyone to tell them "I have the only God-given truth, and you better get my truth, or suffer the consequences!". I do not believe that a loving God metes out justice without mercy. And a merciful God will not judge out anyone who was sincerely seeking His will in their lives, just because they joined the "wrong" denomination or religion.

LDSLinda

12/25/2005 05:15:05 AM

"In friendship it must always bear witness that the LDS doctrines do not agree with Biblical truths." This should read "...do not agree with Biblical truths as I interpret the Bible". One of the big reasons I joined the LDS church was that it was the most Biblical church. And I know of many other converts who are the same. "Joseph Smith made it clear that "ALL" of the non-Mormon beliefs were wrong." This is wrong. When Joseph Smith talked with Jesus Christ in the grove, Christ told him that he was to join none of those sects, because they were all wrong. However, that does not mean that, today, Christian churches are all wrong. "The Book of Mormon may not be all that anti-Christian, but the other two added scripture books (D&C, P-G-P)make it clear that New Testament Christianity and Mormonism part ways." Again, they part ways only as you interpret New Testament Christianity, and the D&C, and the Pearl of Great Price.

Uriah_fan

11/29/2005 10:13:20 AM

In friendship it must always bear witness that the LDS doctrines do not agree with Biblical truths. Joseph Smith made it clear that "ALL" of the non-Mormon beliefs were wrong. The Book of Mormon may not be all that anti-Christian, but the other two added scripture books (D&C, P-G-P)make it clear that New Testament Christianity and Mormonism part ways. Jesus was clear about false teaching leading many into error. With all respect Truth is the unshakeable Rock, on which the Church was built. Mormons like so many other people are wonderful and peaceful people, but that does not equate LDS doctrine with the Faith delivered once. Let us endeavor to "study" and . . . "hold on firmly to the Truth."

tawsha

10/18/2005 02:02:59 PM

I believe that we must all realize that we all come from the same God no matter what we worship Him as (Budda etc.). We are all His children and the religious fighting and back bitting has got to stop or we are all doomed to eternal hell. Our Father in Heaven wants us to be a family in the Celestial Kingdom and if we continue to fight over silly differences then none of us will ever achieve the goal of perfection and live with our Father in the Celestial Kingdom. We can always AGREE TO DISAGREE and leave it at that.

BillThinks4Himself

08/01/2005 10:45:14 PM

If you are "proud" to be LDS, then you need to read your Ezra Taft Benson, and read it a little more carefully. As Apostle and Prophet, Benson very clearly argued that there is no such thing as "righteous pride." All pride, he said, was sinful. Mormons should not be proud of anything. They should, instead, take joy in a heritage handed down to them with care. Gratitude, not pride, should be the emotion of a true Mormon.

sandiego59

07/23/2005 08:09:45 AM

I am proud & very happy to belong to such a marvelous Church Of jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.I attended other churches before returning to this L.D.S.Church.There was something that wasn't touching me deep enough to bring me into his holy ways & loving arms.I am so happy I repented,Baptised,& came back Home,where I know He wants me to be.let us be loving,kind,caring,& full of the radiance of him in our facial expressions,and within the deepest part of our hearts & minds.It is callled "Unification".Union means "One".let's not critisie one another or any churches.I have a way of life.I do not belonng to any religion.Look up that word.I pray for all of you to have a wonderful weekend.

Heretic_for_Christ

07/23/2005 07:42:24 AM

My, how fiercely people will defend their man-made religions, man-made doctrines, man-made scriptures, and man-made churches! Almost as if they seriously think that God cares about which man-made label they wear.

LindaLDS

07/19/2005 08:55:17 AM

Dan B. says "Why the vituperative style?" I don't see it that way. Remember, it's hard to get feelings across on these boards. I don't do vituperative. I just state facts, and ask questions. I don't really care what people think of our church, but when people tell lies about my church, I feel I must step up and take a stand. "Before you criticize someone you should walk a mile in their shoes." I walked the first 21 years of my life as a Protestant, raised by devout Methodist parents.

LindaLDS

07/19/2005 08:54:51 AM

"Attacking someone’s personality or character rather than a specific behavior, usually with blame" Since I don't know the character of anyone on these boards other than what comes across here, then I can't attack anything other than what comes across on these boards. When they attack my church with lies and half-truths, I must make challenges to those lies. "Consider letting scripture make your point:" I do that many times. The problem with doing that, however, is that when doing it from the Bible, I will invariably get "That's not what that verse/passage is saying", and if I quote from the Book of Mormon or the D&C or the Pearl of Great PRice, I will get "We don't believe those books to be scripture".

BillThinks4Himself

07/08/2005 03:29:15 AM

I thought it was neat to read how men of good faith have come forward to offer apologies and an outstretched hand. I thought it was a very honorable thing to do. In my 20 years in the LDS Church, I've had to wade through plenty of lies, distortions, insults and the like. I'd be lying if I said it didn't sting. Then again, I've also sat through Gospel Doctrine classes and heard LDS people do the same thing, and all for the rush of feeling so superior. It's good when people of good will come together and move forward. I respect the gesture.

Dan_B

06/11/2005 06:08:36 PM

Lindalds, Why the vituperative style? Speaking of "disastrous ways of interacting", in the wonderful address "Marriage Tips and Traps", Victor Harris says: “Before you criticize someone you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize someone, you’re a mile away and you have their shoes.” John Gottman says criticism is this: “Attacking someone’s personality or character rather than a specific behavior, usually with blame.” ce.byu.edu/cw/cwfamily/ archives/2002/Victor.W.Harris.pdf Remember our Heavenly Father's love for each of His children... Joseph Smith, when being attacked by his enemies, "would see if there was any truth to the matter". Consider letting scripture make your point: "Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed..." Doc.&Cov. 11:21 Alma 31:5 "And now, as the preaching of the word...had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else...

LindaLDS

05/25/2005 11:48:13 AM

winken says "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. You won't find the Word of God in the Book of Mormon, or in its "prophet," Joseph Smith. Jesus said it quite well in John 14:6. Enough said." You obviously have not read the Book of Mormon if you think you will not find the word of God in it, because everything you said IS in the Book of Mormon, including the words of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon is ANOTHER testament of Jesus Christ, it works hand in hand with the Bible.

LindaLDS

05/25/2005 11:40:43 AM

Ashln says "With that said, I've studied a lot of history, and overall, I don't think much of an apology is owed. The Christian differences with the Mormon teachings are very real, and very incompatible. Many Mormons know this." No, we don't, actually. You are perpetuating the very lies that the article is apologizing for. The history you have been studying is probably NOT our history, but the perverted history of our enemies, the one you WANT to be true. There were no crimes committed by the founders of our faith. There were false arrests, but nothing they could be indicted for, or convicted of.

LindaLDS

05/25/2005 11:38:44 AM

Yes, they DO owe us an apology, for seriously misrepresenting our beliefs and doctrine. Have you ever read the anti-Mormon books out there? There are many. "The Godmakers", "The Kingdom of the Cults", to name a couple. These publications knowlingly and seriously misrepresent our doctrines and beliefs, and they DO owe us an apology for doing this. Just as you would expect an apology for anyone seriously and knowingly misrepresenting your beliefs and doctrines.

LindaLDS

05/25/2005 09:47:52 AM

Mekk says "The strict practice of the "one true church" teaching will be the LDS downfall." We are not the only church that says this. I have heard this from many people about their church when I was growing up, and I did not grow up LDS. We do not say this to make ourselves feel better than everyone else. We DO respect the views and values of EVERY faith and religion, except for anyone who worships Satan. My mother is not LDS, but when I joined the LDS church, it shook her up, and I think it made her a more dedicated Christian woman.

LindaLDS

05/25/2005 09:47:33 AM

NO Christian church should be reduced to anything. ALL churches should be raised up. No one church should think itself better than any other church. I think that when people call us, or other churches like the Jehovah's Witnesses or Christian Scientists a "CULT", they are insecure with their own faith and are trying to reduce our faith, in order to try to make themselves feel more secure in their own faith. But, they should seek security in CHRIST, not in name calling and bringing others down. WE do not bring others down.

god_is_my_refuge

03/10/2005 01:31:26 PM

"A true test of faith in God is whether or not you act like you do." Have faith in God, that is.

god_is_my_refuge

03/10/2005 01:17:54 PM

A true test of faith in God is whether or not you act like you do. Faith in God means heeding the instructions given you on how to treat your neighbor.

Winken

02/12/2005 09:43:26 PM

"Living a better life" does not save that one who is lost. Folks are saved by grace through faith, the gift of God, lest any should boast. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. You won't find the Word of God in the Book of Mormon, or in its "prophet," Joseph Smith. Jesus said it quite well in John 14:6. Enough said.

freekmother

02/12/2005 03:10:58 PM

It seems to me that there is enough misrepresentation, enough anger and enough downright lying on both sides to last us for another 200 years or so. If we are really trying to live Christ's gospel on the earth, it wouldn't matter so much what the other guy believed, as it would what we were doing to help him live a better life in general. When we hear preachers preach Jesus in one breath, and preach the love of money in the other, or the love of war and hatred of people unlike ourselves,I have to wonder, is this what Jesus died for?

ELIHU3

02/02/2005 01:04:51 PM

Grace and peace. To be sure there are significant differences in "Mormon" and "Christian" doctrine that act to separate men from one another. How wonderful is it then that we have a Champion,a Savior,who unites men despite their differences.When we face a new people perhaps the pertinent question is not what is their doctrine, but do they trust in,cling to,and rely on Jesus Christ and are they willing to suffer for doing the good He asks of them. The truth is we have lied about and misrepresented Mormon belifs to one another and to others.It is not only the Mormons but more essentially Jehovah whom we owe an apology for such things. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be on God's people. My love to you in Christ Jesus.

Sister_T

01/20/2005 02:12:08 AM

Thank you Outlaw Torn! ^_^ Good insight! You're right, we should ask God for wisdom in our prayers. As a member of the LDS church, I am happy to say that I have done exactly that and know that what I am doing and what we believe is true and nobody can sway me, not even if Satan himself said he would give me all that I dream of.

AshInAthens

01/18/2005 10:43:33 PM

Again, I'm not saying anything against the very good people who follow the Mormon religion. However, to argue that anybody owes a body as a whole an apology because they do a lot of good works in the world... I'm sorry, that's not the substance of the dispute. There are a lot of good people who follow Catholicism, but that doesn't change the fact that there are serious differences between it and Christianity. That's why there was a Protestant Reformation, and I'll be darned if anyone even considers apologizing to the Catholic Church for breaking off. Likewise, Protestants rejected Mormons as part of the Christian brethren for good reason, and aside from a few decidedly non-Christian acts of predjudice and hatred, I don't think anyone owes the LatterDay Saints an apology.

AshInAthens

01/18/2005 10:34:04 PM

Let me start by saying that I have known a lot of Mormons who are very nice, sweet, even Godly people. What I say about the religion in general (and I would hope that applies to a lot of people here) has nothing to do with my opinion of the people who follow it. With that said, I've studied a lot of history, and overall, I don't think much of an apology is owed. The Christian differences with the Mormon teachings are very real, and very incompatible. Many Mormons know this. They had to rewrite parts of the Bible to make it work. The crimes committed by some of the founders of the Mormon faith are also very real. (cont...)

Outlaw_Torn

01/16/2005 06:16:50 PM

Well... I think everyone of us should follow ol'Joseph Smith's example, whether or not the church he founded was true, he had one dang good idea after reading this Bible scripture in James: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord." Myself included, I think we all need to do a little more praying, reading, fasting, obeying commandments, and above all, doing all those things with an Open Mind. That may help us a bit more than everyone pointing fingers at each other and bickering about differences. Just remember the open mind part, if nothing else =)

mekk

01/03/2005 11:04:42 AM

I haven't read all the posts on this subject and I am sure some of you have brought forward the points that I am about to make: Wouldn't it be time for a 'We Have Sinned Against You' to come from high ranking LDS leaders? In my opinion, admitting mistakes and starting a dialogue about them is a very good thing to do. Even the pope uttered a "mea culpa" apology. The strict practice of the "one true church" teaching will be the LDS downfall. I think that the highest degree of human development is a pluralistic society that respects different views and promotes truly human values such as equality, respect, tolerance, compassion, openness... The church should be "reduced to the max". The Christian message of salvation to those who believe and a subsequent encouragement of all humans to seek a personal relationship with God.

Sister_T

12/22/2004 01:57:27 PM

You're right.

denisemac

12/22/2004 11:33:05 AM

sister T: that is ok. It takes time to learn how to speak here without doing so. But we can learn from each other and not insult each others beleifs.

Sister_T

12/22/2004 10:11:20 AM

I'm sorry I got defensive.

denisemac

12/21/2004 09:55:45 PM

Sister T: I hope you were not posting to me. I realize this that is what my post meant. I know most people in churches are being led wrong and they totally believe in their church. But some time I hope most will wake up to what is going on. I have studied with the mormons as my family is from Utah and they are mormon based. I have tons of horror stories but then again there are horror stories from all walks of life.

Sister_T

12/21/2004 09:23:23 PM

We're all human, and all humans make mistakes, regardless of race, religion, sex, etc. Nobody's exempt. That's just the way we are! Some people in our church can be the way you've described, but not all of us are. Please don't forget the rest of us that treat everyone with respect.

denisemac

12/21/2004 04:15:40 PM

According to prophecy the Mormon church will unite with other christian churches to become a world power. It all seems lovely on the outside but yes wolfs in sheeps clothing usually do. We will see this new religion that Bush is fighting so hard for to make gays and unmarried mothers be persecuted according to his all and powerful Godly mind. I grew up in Mormon town Salt Lake City and anyone outside the church was treated with contempt. Any black person who came into town from their west side area was arrested immediately and treated horribly for coming into the white mans area. They are not better nor no worse then any christians. They are all human. None of us is above sin but we must watch those who claim that they will punish those who do not conform to their teachings.

brigid

12/21/2004 01:37:43 PM

Not only accounts by contemporary books and newspapers, but accounts passed down through families in the vicinity of Nauvoo, and by Native Americans from Utah tell of ravages by Mormons, whose goal at the time was to establish a theocracy and drive out non-Mormon settlers, after first helping themselves to their property. The only contemporary writer I've come across who mentioned polygamy was Mark Twain and he treated it like a joke. Fort Douglas Utah was established to keep the Mormons from contimuing their depradations. Tradition has it that there was a cannon pointed at Brigham Young's house. You can see the house from the post by the way.

RioLion

12/17/2004 09:38:20 AM

I am not sure if evangelicals have really distorted what Mormons believe, because many are former Mormons who have testified of their negative experiences. It has been the goal of Mormonism over the years to be recognized as another Christian organization. They have been rejected by World Council of Churches and the National Council of churches on various ocassions as their beliefs are just too divergent from traditional Christianity. It is true that historical accounts have been distorted as we read now that much of the persecution of Mormons in the 1800's was due to their courtships of wives belonging to non-Mormon husbands as well as their violations of laws.

Lookbeyond

12/15/2004 03:08:34 AM

brigid, perhaps you have some learning to do....it too, may result in an apology....but be that as it may, it always amazes me how people talk about many things they really show no evidence for.......I am grateful God is just in His judgement, and by the same judgement we sometimes judge others, we too shall be judged! Better hope we are correct in our judgements before we spout off the negetative! Mormons are really quite harmless! Actually, they promote good will among nations all over the world with their vast humanitarian efforts.....has anyone noticed that and made comment about the vastness and their abilities in this regard? Of course not, that would shed a "Positive Light" upon something they despise.....and hate! There were those who crucified the Christ, who claimed to be the Son of God........but they did not succeed in silencing His message or destroying His mission...

Sister_T

12/12/2004 10:17:58 PM

Once again, interesting things...

brigid

12/11/2004 01:34:50 PM

Anyone ever read any part of the Book of Mormon? You can find it in the rooms at any hotel in the Marriot chain. While I believe they have a right to believe how they believe, they are actually the first of the science fiction religions.(right in there with Scientology). Although they don't like to admit it, their early history has more to do with the lawlessness of many of their earlier followers than with religious persecution. The lynching of Joseph Smith had more to do with barn burning, night riders, cattle rustling, and the murder of a Quaker minister than with anything else. The Mormons mended some fences, but they would be better served to admit the truth about their early history and apoligize.

Sister_T

12/09/2004 03:08:16 PM

People believe in the most interesting things, like UFO's, Sasquatch, etc., but somehow can't fathom that God and Christ talked to a teenage boy.

Lookbeyond

12/09/2004 09:41:55 AM

Wonder why people can't just accept an apology and be grateful some would like to "mend" fences instead of building more? I wonder why also, since the very first moment the Prophet Joseph Smith declared the visitation of the Father and the Son, the preachers of the day riled up the people to hate and fight against this young boy who made a simple claim clarifying the true nature of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ! A truth that will not go away regardless of those who fight against it and speak evil against the Church falsely....

mcc99

12/03/2004 05:03:15 PM

I just want to make this simple point. When Mr. Mouw said, "Indeed, let me state it bluntly to the LDS folks here this evening: we have sinned against you.", I simply want to point out that it was something of a misstatement, as far as I understand Xian beliefs. _Sinning_ is done against God, not people. _Offenses_ against people are made, not sins. But otherwise I think it's nice of him that he is seeking to mend fences with others and own his part in something he sees as bad.

ozero

12/03/2004 03:05:27 PM

The article brings up one of the most telling problems of Christianity today. Lies. To an outsider, it would be difficult to tell which version of Christianity is better or more true than another. Catholics and Mormons and Lutherans and Orthodox and Evangelicals etc produce good people and do good work, but if you walk into your church and find a document, leaflet or tract that critizes another religion, check it out. Don't check it out with your religion, check it out with the accused religion. If there are lies, don't walk, run from that religion. You know who they are really in league with and it isn't Jesus Christ.

Kipluck

12/03/2004 02:22:07 PM

(the other half... dang character limit. hee hee!) I believe that Jesus Christ was born through his mother Mary and that he is literally son of Heavenly Father, a fact we celebrate this month! (3 weeks! :O) He lived and taught us the way, and I try as best I can to make my steps mirror his own. I am not perfect but all he asks is that we try and that his grace makes up the difference. I belive that he was crucified, and that he offered himself up for all of us. Then, 3 days later, he was ressurected, so that all of us would live again. He lives now! Especially now, I hope that we can all be a little kinder to each other and see each other as children of God. Merry Christmas... HE is the REASON for the season.

Kipluck

12/03/2004 02:21:18 PM

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints this article made me smile. It seemed to say "hey, we disagree on things, but we can still be friends!" However, my smile faded when I saw how these words affected many of you. Why does this seem to rile people up? He didn't get up and say our church was true. He didn't tell people to stop trying to convert us... he just said to do so with more "gentleness and reverence."

clambake1

12/03/2004 03:07:36 AM

Sister_T: If people only knew what you were talking about.

clambake1

12/03/2004 03:05:36 AM

It is obvious that JesseLDS has never read the 'Journal of Discourses'! I have, all of the twenty plus volumes. Therein one will find not only the teaching from the early LDS leaders that all other churches and religions are apostate, but also many other vile and divisive things, like Brigham Young's detestation of Jews, Blacks, and Indians. Modern Mormon's have that not rare proclivity found among believers that enables them to bury their heads in the comforting sands of their own official propaganda.

Sister_T

12/02/2004 10:14:26 PM

If people only knew what they were saying...

robinsgarret

12/02/2004 08:23:55 PM

"But in recent times things have begun to change. Evangelicals and Mormons have worked together on important matters of public morality. " Translated: "We found out we both hate gay people." Gee... its amazing the bond a common hatred can forge. Let's just forget all that divisional love stuff.

thomasmissouri

12/02/2004 03:47:27 PM

The are not apostate Mormons,but they are apostate christians !

thomasmissouri

12/02/2004 03:45:36 PM

So the LDS church has NEVER considered the other churches to be false or apostate ? So while the other churhes are not LDS apostates, the are considered apostate christians because they have in relation to "true christainity" : apostate":One who has forsaken the faith, principles, or party, to which he before adhered; esp., one who has forsaken his religion for another; a pervert; a renegade. It would seem obvious to me that since churches do not follow the doctrine/dogma of the LDS which is "true christianity" they at some point must have perverted the original and true christianity which they do follow.

Heretic_for_Christ

12/02/2004 12:44:56 PM

watsy, I've been accused of many things, but NEVER of being succinct. But your analogy to marriage counseling is true. I'll go further and say that a couple that has entered counseling is at least willing to consider reconciliation. There first has to be the willingness; then comes the working out of details.

watsy

12/02/2004 12:39:48 PM

HFC, You are very succinct. I wish I had your clarity of mind. I know this is off topic b-net, but I just want to make one more point. Then I promise, I'm outta here. The point that I was trying to make yesterday was to the liberals who are ready to battle the right. If they would work to clean up the behaviors on the left that are contributing to these extreme stereotypes, they might find more people willing to help them. It's like if you have a bad marriage and start counseling. You're probably not going to have much success if your goal is to only fix the other guy.

summerdaze5

12/02/2004 12:20:33 PM

I found this article very interesting. I think it is SO important for all Christians to begin to find common ground and mutual respect so that we can stand together against the opposing forces in the world today. I think we saw some of that in the recent election, where we did find common ground. We cannot stand alone in our differing beliefs and be effective against the tide of wickedness. We have many fundamental beliefs and values in common and as we put aside our pride in being the "only ones who are right" we can find great strength in one another. Hurray for Richard Mouw for having the guts to say what he did publicly. It makes me want to reevaluate my own prejudices against those who believe differently and be cautious in also bearing "false witness."

Heretic_for_Christ

12/02/2004 09:29:25 AM

watsy, Quite right. Both conservatives and liberals let their extreme factions dominate the perception of what their respective philosophies are. So when each side looks at the other, all they see are extreme stereotypes.

JesseLDS

12/01/2004 05:47:08 PM

From dictionary.com: "apostate":One who has forsaken the faith, principles, or party, to which he before adhered; esp., one who has forsaken his religion for another; a pervert; a renegade. So if you have never left the LDS church and taught against it after having belonged to it, no, we don't consider you apostate. I was born into the church and I've never been taught other churches are apostate. On the contrary, I've been taught that all Christian churches are good that seek to follow the Savior. All have parts of the truth, only that the church the Savior established during his ministry is now restored. Truth is constant, whether we believe or disbelieve, and the truth is we do not wish to be at odds with any religion. If others wish to be then that's their problem, not ours.

Heretic_for_Christ

12/01/2004 03:56:44 PM

watsy, I don't think I'd characterize the left as being totally elastic. Most of the liberals and progressives I know have quite strong values. As for issues of personal liberty, yes, liberals are far more open-minded than fundamentalists, but there are definitely limits: I never met anyone who lives up to the stereotype of a liberal as a criminal-coddling, sexually promiscuous, drug-abusing, geek whose greatest pleasure is paying taxes.

Dovidl

12/01/2004 03:56:02 PM

"I would like to know if the LDS church still holds to the doctrine/dogma that ALL OTHER CHURCHES EXCEPT THEIRS ARE APOSTATE!" Funny, I was just thinking that I had heard mainstream Christian churches felt that way about Mormons... Are we being deceived here?

thomasmissouri

12/01/2004 01:25:53 PM

I would like to know if the LDS church still holds to the doctrine/dogma that ALL OTHER CHURCHES EXCEPT THEIRS ARE APOSTATE !

purpleku69

11/30/2004 09:17:49 PM

If churches want to influence politics, they should pay taxes just like everyone else, and then influence all they want to.

blueliberationfront

11/30/2004 09:04:47 PM

watsy - the "moderates" in most Christian Churches have already been purged from their churches, under threat of excommunication. Meanwhile, the fascists that threw them out are on the march. They are in every branch of government, from the heights of federal power to the school boards in the suburbs. The die has been cast. The only options in dealing with the Religious Reich are capitulation or open rebellion. Personally, I would rather die on my feet defending my rights than live on my knees genuflecting before the idols of the Christian Reich.

akbusch

11/30/2004 09:27:11 AM

The fact is that there are churches that have lost their tax-exempt status, and deservedly so, for endorsing and stumping for certain political candidates. For a long time now, there have been churches that have had political candidates as guests in their pulpits. That, IMHO, is just plain wrong.

akbusch

11/30/2004 09:24:27 AM

watsy: If you mean do I think it would be unethical or "too close to the line" to stand up and say that churches/clergy who do endorse a party or candidate, on either side of the aisle, are violating the separation of church and state, then my answer would be no. I basically said that to my congregation, though not in so many words, when I told them I don't think it's right to suggest whom they should vote for.

watsy

11/30/2004 08:57:46 AM

blueliberationfront, I explored different Christian churches when I was in college. The churches that you mentioned are definitely out there, but I don't think(hope)that they're even the majority. HFC is right- it appears that they are the majority because the moderates are quiet. I really like the idea of "political neutrality". It's a term that moderate churches can use without appearing to join the fray. Using extremist language to fight extremists is not going to be effective because both have credibility issues.

SquirleyWurley

11/30/2004 03:58:49 AM

Well this talk of Fascists, made me think about a song: http://originalderivatives.tripod.com The worst Bush quotes over industrial dance music with funky/prog-rock keyboards, sirens, bombs. I do think that some on the theocratic right are trying to gain what they can by working with others with similar interests, but if they got power, then you'd start to see the infighting. On the other hand, lying about others, just because you are opponents, isn't a good thing, so being repentant for it is only appropriate. Some of the religious right is 'friends' with Israel, too, but they expect that it is God's will that most of the Jews will be killed by an Antichrist, and that Jews who don't convert to Christianity will get extra wrath, and won't get to heaven.... some friends. Can't rely on them or trust them. But yeah it's about time people apologized for such lies.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/29/2004 08:14:44 PM

JesseLDS, The neutrality stance is fine--the question is what churches that believe in neutrality should do about those who violate that principle. Remaining neutral about those who violate neutrality gives assent to that violation.

blueliberationfront

11/29/2004 08:13:16 PM

watsy - I used to go to church. I know precisely what preachers are saying: they say women who have abortions are murderers. They say gay people are sodomites who should be killed. They say that going to war and killing civilians is A-OK. Those are the words of FASCISTS. And when fascists speak, it is a signal that they are readying the lynch mobs. But this is okay. I believe firmly that Americans are beginning to come to their senses about the rise of the Christian Reich, and are seeing the TRUTH of their agenda. And it is at least my hope that this sense of alarm will soon translate into preparedness - so that when the jack booted thugs of the Christian Reich rise up, they will not find easy victims they'd hope to stomp, but people ready to FIGHT.

JesseLDS

11/29/2004 06:51:57 PM

I like the stance the church has taken on political neutrality. I humbly submit it would be a good example for other churches to follow.

watsy

11/29/2004 06:32:21 PM

Akbusch, Would it be unethical to make some noise about the separation of church and state, or is that too close to the line?

Heretic_for_Christ

11/29/2004 05:35:28 PM

akbusch, I agree completely! When I asked, "Where was the voice...?" I was not suggesting that rational Christians endorse Kerry or any other candidate. I meant that it is vital for them to speak out against those preachers who DO turn their pulpits into political platforms. The last thing I would want is for churches to start lining up behind this or that political party. To the contrary, I just want them to start dealing seriously with the politically extreme factions within themselves.

akbusch

11/29/2004 05:19:40 PM

(cont.) It would be unethical in that, even in our post-Christian culture, the voice of the pastor still has a great deal of power in such matters. To endorse a candidate or a party would be an abuse of that power. Ah, but there we have a problem! As h4c and others point out, there are plenty of church leaders who seems to have no qualms about using that power to sway their people politically. (The "religious right" does that, of course, but let's be honest--liberals do it too. They may not have been making quite as much noise lately or getting as much press, but they do it!) I don't know what to do about it. I really don't. Even so, speaking for myself, I can't in good conscience violate that boundary.

akbusch

11/29/2004 05:12:34 PM

This thread is a bit off-topic in light of the article, but it's important. You ask an important question, h4c, commented on by watsy: "Where was the voice of rational Christianity...." I don't know if I'm all that rational, but I certainly consider myself both traditional and moderate in my practice and preaching of Christianity. As a pastor, I steadfastly refused to endorse a political candidate. I urged the people to vote their conscience, and that's it. Any more, for me, would be to violate separation of church and state, of my tradition's belief in religious liberty and freedom of conscience, and it would, IMO, be unethical.

watsy

11/29/2004 03:55:23 PM

H4C, I just wanted to add one more thing, not as an excuse, but an explanation. You asked, "Where was the voice of rational Christianity throughout the election?" Well, it's not organized to make a lot of noise. The noise in most moderate churches never leaves the church. Now that I think about it,it's not even that noisy in the church. We are quiet people who think that religion is between each individual and their God. But I can see that we need to find our voice.

watsy

11/29/2004 03:24:09 PM

H4C, I don't disagree with you. I think that it's important that our religious leaders, and followers, start speaking loudly about the importance of separation of church and state. The saying that you never realize how important something is until it's lost really holds true. I think it's hard for religious people with a non-political agenda to attract more attention than those with one, especially at election time. I agree that the non-Christians may be forgiven for thinking that by our silence we gave assent. Our silence cost us a loss, as well.

Heretic_for_Christ

11/29/2004 01:49:08 PM

watsy, I believe what you are saying. However, just as I feel that rational Muslims must rescue Islam from the fanatics who have seemingly taken it over, rational Christians must do more than say that Christianity is not fairly represented by its fanatics. Where was the voice of rational Christianity throughout the election, protesting loudly against the politicalization of religion and the religification of politics by the most repressive wing of fundamentalism? In the absence of active and unrelenting protest, non-Christians may be forgiven for thinking that by your silence you gave assent to the crazies. Every religion, not just Islam, must confront its own crazies; otherwise, the crazies will end up in charge of and speaking for the religion.

Lookbeyond

11/29/2004 01:04:06 PM

To Richard Mouw, I say, Thank You!! Your graciousness and courage to right a wrong is commendable, and perhaps now, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, will be accorded the title of being Christians! It was indeed an "Evening of Friendship" and don't we wish we could meet together often......in like manner? Let the name calling come to an end, let the learning and understanding begin through better communication! :^)

Lookbeyond

11/29/2004 12:59:09 PM

When we find ourselves outside the mainstream of normal and acceptable behavior, such as being gay or homosexual, there will always be the cry of exclusionary practices by mainstream religion! Why? Many exclude the sinner, forgetting that through repentance forgiveness is granted! It is appropriate to dislike the "sin" but never should we shun the "sinner".....for we all are sinners to some degree! We are to forgive "all" people....God will forgive whom He will! We are not required to love the sin.....only the sinner! :^)

watsy

11/29/2004 12:26:19 PM

Akbush, I was pressed to find anything but a sincere effort to mend fences as well. It is sad. I wish that those who are feeling this anger towards Christians would walk into a church, at least I can speak for mine, and hear what is being said from the pulpit. I think that they would be surprised. They might not agree with the theology, but they would agree with the moral teachings. God Bless

akbusch

11/29/2004 12:14:29 PM

That is very well-said, watsy, and I do see your point. The hurt and anger to which you refer is indeed real and valid. That said, I still don't think that validates making the kind of judgments and assumptions that some do in reaction to this article. Again I say that it's cynical and sad to take something that appears to be a sincere effort to mend fences and open dialogue and interpret it to be about a political agenda.

watsy

11/29/2004 11:34:10 AM

I think that it tells you how people are looking at the world right now. Many people are feeling anger and bewilderment to the core. Many people view the current American president as the most corrupt in recent history, and he's re-elected on "moral values." It doesn't matter if it's evangelical Christians, fundamentalist Christians, clueless Christians, or whatever- to them, it's Christians. Homosexuals, especially those in committed relationships, are angry and feel betrayed beyond their core. They've been told that they are sinners and undeserving of civil rights. The Christians or "moral voters" have spoken. The people in both groups would normally be happy to ignore the evangelicals and fundamentalists, but these folks are interfering with their lives by mixing religion with politics. "Wow" is right. They really are that hurt and angry.

akbusch

11/29/2004 10:39:01 AM

Nor was taught to hate myself, watsy. I was indeed taught to hold myself accountable for my bad choices, even to feel guilty for them (thank God). But hate myself? No. I read back to a few earlier posts, and I have to say that those who refer to Fuller Seminary and Mouw and "fundies" simply don't know what they're talking about. There is a quantum difference between the evangelicalism represented by Fuller and Mouw and true fundamentalism; a difference in content, tone and style. And those who dismiss Mouw's comments as being politically motivated, all I can say is, "Wow!" Such cynicism and judgmentalism saddens and worries me. Actually, it tells me more about how such folks look at the world, more than about what Mouw said. Reminds me of the old saying: "If the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon all you see is nails."

watsy

11/29/2004 10:16:36 AM

I've been a Christian my whole life. I've never been encouraged to hate myself. As a child, I was told that all people, including myself, are lovable and are loved by God. I was taught right from wrong, that no person (including myself) is perfect, and to ask God for forgiveness when I do wrong. I don't think that my experience was all that unusual. I think that, once again, because a certain group of Christians come across as being judgmental towards others, their focus always on sin and grace, my way or hell, they leave the impression that they must hate themselves to be so hateful towards others.

blueliberationfront

11/29/2004 01:58:18 AM

godisaheretic - given that Christians are encouraged to hate themselves, are you sure that's such a good idea?

godisaheretic

11/28/2004 10:42:58 PM

love your mormon neighbor as yourself

cloud-eagle

11/28/2004 07:34:29 PM

What we put our attention on increases doesn't it. So let's put our attnetion on God, Christ, Peace, Light, Love and the other aspects of the Lord. Fear begets fear. Love begets Love.

cloud-eagle

11/28/2004 07:32:10 PM

Lift ourselves (and whoever will choose to see) that we are Soul always and God is ever-present in which we live and move and have our very being. And be practical here on Earth. Imagine no need for Government could occur if the majority of people on Earth fire the warmongers. Peace can prevail. Within each of us and throughout this world. Sure we live in a world of harmony through conflict. Just know Christ is as close to you as a prayer right now. Organized religion and greedy preachers are not needed to know God.

cloud-eagle

11/28/2004 07:28:51 PM

Politics seems to be about survival and the outer form -- ego. Spirituality about Spirit. And that which you really are which is Soul. Therefore while on Earth are we not suppose to lift ourselves up a bit from our temporary darkness of ignorance in this mortal shell?

cloud-eagle

11/28/2004 07:25:11 PM

When I was a kid Mormon's spoke at some Jewish Synagogs nad some Rabbi's spoke at some Mormon churches. I always thought that exchange of knowledge was good (and inclusive). I also think that the Mormon Temple in Utah has a cool "Star of David" on their grounds but don't think it is related. On a side note the land of Utah is so beautiful it makes me feel like God is alive in the very ground of Utah and other places. The Painted Desert etc. In case anyone cares I trust Mormons even more than I trust people of the New Age. But this trust problem is my problem. Someday I hope to LOVE unconditionally and trust all. Everyone. I do trust only God in this manner. But to Love One Another As MySelf (or Ones' Self AKA SOUL -- Love all as Soul) This is the challenge and opportunity.

cloud-eagle

11/28/2004 07:16:49 PM

If Mormons and "Christian" Churches or Evangelitical are becoming more inclusive (loving) and non-separative (non-hating "my way is the only way") then perhaps Christ is reaching some of the flock. You must understand my experience with Christians has been one of "we shall force you to think and believe like us." Mormons are indeed Christian. Does not God's house have many mansions? They also include all the other religions. Yet God is one. And his Sons and Daughters do not divide. They include. God is Love and Light. (The Old Testament is old wine; the new Testament is new wine. And newer different wine exists!) Christ as God is ever new not stagnant past. That which Christ lived is superior to what men preach. As His children (made in His image and likeness) we can live it too. Judge not. And transcend all propaganda. Find out for yourself what is True. God Alone.

Sister_T

11/27/2004 10:05:40 PM

Synagogues of Satan? I must have missed that lesson in Sunday school...

thepaintman80

11/27/2004 09:41:41 PM

Hmmmm, Scripture tells us not even to bid Godspeed to the heretic. These people are are having picnics with them. Actually the reformed and LDS churches have something in common, they booth believe the church went apostate and had to be re-instituted. When I was LDS I was told that I belonged to the true church and that the rest of the churches were synagouges of Satan. Boy has the church changed, ditto with the reformed.

Sister_T

11/27/2004 01:50:03 PM

Interesting thoughts, rabbit.

blueliberationfront

11/27/2004 05:28:24 AM

Of course the Evangelicals are going to apologize to the Mormons. Because Evangelicals need the votes of Mormons nationwide (not just in Utah) to help advance their gay-bashing, woman-hating agenda. In other words, they are putting aside differences so they can form one big happy lynch mob. Don't be fooled. The Christian Reich's factions are burying the hatchet with each other so they can bury the hatchet in the foreheads of those they collectively hate more. Be prepared. Arm yourself - both intellectually and physically - so that the day when this modern day Klan comes galloping in, they won't find the easy targets they hope for, but people who fight for the right to live freely.

JenellY

11/26/2004 09:52:22 PM

Unfair,false teachings, hatefull attitudes towards people of other faiths and religions, even other denominations, as well as the same thing done without care to those they see as unchurched AKA unsaved is way up at the top of the list of reasons I felt compelled, to leave the evangelical community entirely. The We/us/me is/are always right, good, Godly, VS they/them/you are always wrong, bad, unglodly, satanic, to be demonized for our self serving goals is a pervasive part of evangelcal Christianity, and until that is recognized and acknowledged, it can't be addressed. Bearing false witness against our neighbors, whether they be Mormon's, Catholics, Muslims, or of no religion at all, is wrong. I've undertaken to do EXTENSIVE studies of other faiths and religions, both through college courses and my own research and study,and virtually EVERYTHING I'd been taught about others in my Baptist upbringing was nothing but malicious lies.

rabbit-usa

11/26/2004 08:06:24 PM

May as well get it out of the way in advance of the inevitable question... I have no problem with a non-personified image of the Creator. In fact, as I acknowledge that Creator and Creation are One, there is no need for an 'image' at all beyond my occasional need for one, as a mere human, in moments of weakness. Mostly, I can address the Creator without the use of such reductions. However, if one supposes that humans were created in the (gross, as opposed to, or perhaps in addition to the molecular) image of the Creator, then it is obvious that the Creator’s image is feminine. 1. The majority of humanity is female. 2. No human can live without the 'X' chromosome, the female chromosome. 3. Gestation and lactation are responsibilities given to females. Clearly, the template of humanity is female. Thus, the true image of the Creator is Mother. Jesus was a great teacher who found Grace and, as such, served Her.

rabbit-usa

11/26/2004 07:41:20 PM

THE Goddess. :) I'm not a strict monotheist, but I recognize that all Goddesses and Gods are aspects of HER.

costrel

11/26/2004 06:16:57 PM

Jesus served a Goddess? That's one I've never heard before...

rabbit-usa

11/26/2004 05:42:08 PM

We non-Christians have good reason to mistrust fundie motives. No doubt there are Grace-full exceptions to the norm in all of the corrupted, patriarchal religions (sorry, can't whitewash it). Jesus is one example of a person who overcame that conditioning to serve Almighty Goddess. It's a shame so much of his teaching was, within decades after his execution, hijacked and defiled by the very misogynist establishment who had condemned him.

cknuck

11/25/2004 06:21:11 PM

Mr Mouw should apologize for his transgressions but he should also speak for himself. His tossing everyone in the same boat is just as short sighted as cusidh's negative post. I a devout Christian am a member of a twelve-step group and my grand-sponsor is Mormon, and I love him.

Sister_T

11/25/2004 11:22:30 AM

At least Mr. Mouw was trying to bring peace and friendship between the two groups. After all, isn't that what everybody wants? Peace and friendship?

Cusidh

11/24/2004 09:19:24 PM

And, if it's not obvious, this move is political, not theological. These Fundies were sh**ing on Mormons, not because of any political agenda, but a theological one. Now, while serving a corporate agenda, the theological niceties can go Frigg as long as someone can say Jesus and command submission. I don't personally buy word one out of what those Mormon teens with 'elder' on their nametags say, in inner cities where people are vulnerable, as I've met over and over and over again, but.... These Protestant Fundies are now admitting disortions, after all this time. All I ask you to consider is: Why now? And... What else have they distorted, all along, now that they're throwing you a bone? How will you deal with this? It's up to you.

Cusidh

11/24/2004 08:53:14 PM

Now, I'm not really criticising Mormon theology, mind you, just observing that an uncanny plurality of women I've counselled with severe dissociative identity problems (we're talking fragmentation and MPD) just happen to have come from Mormon upbringing. I dunno what other brands of Christians have been pushing, not being a Christian, ...but. Fill in the blanks.

Cusidh

11/24/2004 08:47:20 PM

I figure, if you're following the words of a dude who went up on charges for a previous and completely *different* religious scam, ...you deserve whatever you get if you get sanctimonious about it.

Sister_T

11/24/2004 08:22:02 PM

Let me assure you that the Book of Mormon is not more important than the Bible, nor does it replace it in our theology. The way I see it, as long as you believe in Jesus Christ and practice what He taught (love your neighbor, serve God, etc.), you can consider yourself a Christian. Since Latter-Day Saints, Evangelicals, Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, and etc. teach that Christ is our Savior and that we should follow His ways, we can all call ourselves Christians.

Bravo88

11/24/2004 05:23:41 PM

Regardless though, Christians must speak the truth in love and therefore be mindful to not cause others to stumble upon the teachings of Jesus Christ and of the Bible. Even those whom mock the beliefs of Christians are "entitled" to our gentle care and love, even if they speak lies and sow hatred towards us. If Christ was hated and reviled by the world, what else should we as His followers expect?

Bravo88

11/24/2004 05:20:31 PM

I myself have had questions about the traditions and beliefs of other faiths and done what I could to research them (except joining those traditions). Maybe the information I've read is inaccurate therefore I am very careful when or if I make statements re: such things. What do the Mormons believe? That ultimately is the question. If they believe in certain things then they may well be counted among Christians. The problem is that there are "extra teachings" and the book written by their founder. What that book contains may or may not contradict the bible; the key thing is what place that book holds compared to the Bible, in the hearts of Mormons.

Bravo88

11/24/2004 05:15:17 PM

I am glad to see that efforts are being made to correct wrong doings of the past but I hesitate to endorse what this "evangelical" says. First of all, he should be careful to speak on behalf of others; not all evangelicals have made the mistake that he admits to and therefore his apology should be only for himself and his actions and for those whom he has permission to speak for.

akbusch

11/24/2004 05:08:17 PM

I have to come clean and confess that I am challenged--and humbled--by Dr. Mouw's comments. I have had a judgmental attitude toward the LDS church, long after I had been telling myself that judgmentalism is a sin and only God can judge. I too am sorry for that. I did also hear him say, loud and clear, that there are indeed differences between LDS teaching and evangelical theology, and that those difference are "of eternal significance". I also heard a gentle but clear confrontation of the LDS church in his speech. It took humility and courage for him to make such a speech.

Sister_T

11/24/2004 01:08:30 PM

If it makes you feel any better, Devil's Advocate, I have never spread rumors about the practices of Satanism.

JesseLDS

11/24/2004 11:29:39 AM

The link didn't work properly. When the window opens, type in "The Peaceable Followers of Christ" in the "Quick Search" window in the top. Click on the link by Boyd K. Packer to read the article.

windbender

11/24/2004 11:19:54 AM

And here, folks, is why the Jews are so suspicious of the evangelical support for Israel. We always know that, not very far beneath the encouraging words, the feelings get pretty dark. After all, we too can easily be described as, "antithesis of Biblical Christinaity".

JesseLDS

11/24/2004 11:16:13 AM

This article should be of interest to you. It was given by Boyd K. Packer, acting President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles of the church. It's called "The Peaceable Followers of Christ." I hope the HTML works. If not I'll re-post.

JesseLDS

11/24/2004 11:07:06 AM

Some of you (I won't mention names, it should be obvious) may want to read again and carefully consider the last paragraph of the article on this page and the first two on the next page. One who claims to be Christian, but attacks the beliefs of others and intentionally misrepresents them or refuses to try and understand them, is decidedly un-Christian. Just something to think about.

withwonderingawe

11/24/2004 10:04:34 AM

Strefansh wrote Mormon doctrine is a complete antithesis of Biblical Christinaity Now there is one of the major points which has caused tension. I'll rewrite that line and remove the negative. 'Mormon doctrine is nothing like traditional Christianity and their understanding of the Bible is different than my own' Yes we are very different and have major disagreements, we all agree. But it is the usurping of the word Christian and the concept that someone owns a patent on the Bible which has caused a great deal of the tension and miss understanding. Iris wrote "..in the end, such an attitude towards others turns me against my own religion more so than it does against the one being attacked" Iris's comment is interesting because it shows that the anti machine can have the opposite reaction, it can backfire and like in the case of my own mother make one more curious.

n4myart

11/24/2004 09:32:25 AM

Let God be true and every person a liar, that you may be justified in your sayings, and may overcome when you are judged. Romans 3:4. Read also 1 Jn 5:9-13. Now read the book of Mormon. Don't read "about" it, actually read "it". read their literature. Christians are so worried about others finding some offense with the teachings of Jesus that we are preaching a meatless, meaningless, muscle-less and much-less authentic Gospel. The Word of God is not just anybody's well articulated, well-intentioned, thoughtfull, or precise hermeneutic, it is God's opinion about God's self and God's testamony about God's only son. The truth is that we have a tendancy to climb into bed with any devil so often and too frequently that our understanding of the intent of the gospel and its challenges have become so perverted and polluted that it's moral authority is powerless to challenge or transform. "Association brings about assimilation", it also brings about validation, who is assimilating and validating whom?

IRIS4le

11/24/2004 09:17:04 AM

I went to a Baptist highschool, and while they were good people, I remember watching some cartoon version of the Mormon religion that was far from flattering. In the end, such an attitude towards others turns me against my own religion more so than it does against the one being attacked. I believe in an attitude of acceptance as long as people are believers and trying to do good in this world.

tomgschermuly

11/24/2004 06:06:16 AM

Stefanash, I would like to respecfully call your attention to the fact that Mr. Mouw did *not* advocate theological agreement with the LDS--or, for that matter, with anyone else. What he *did* say was that dishonest tactics for conversion ought to be abandoned, as they dishonor God. Surely, you can agree that this much is correct, yes?

devilsadvocate666

11/24/2004 12:36:43 AM

Now if they would only stop spreading lies about us Satanists, claiming we: drink blood, sacrifice babies/animals/people/anything within arm's reach, are Christianphobes, and all of us worship this "Satan", commit crimes like desecration/murder/etc on a regular basis, and a whole list of nonsense, then I'll be impressed.

stevejd

11/23/2004 11:47:56 PM

Hi. I'm a member of the Unification Church and I certainly hold that Mormons and all other Christians are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I'm very pleased to read this article. Thanks and God bless.

strefanash

11/23/2004 11:11:35 PM

this is outrageous. Mormon doctrine is a complete antithesis of Biblical christianity, and they are theological illiterates who think otherwise. If people who call themselves evangelicals now think they once bore false witness against the mormons they are only showing their own bankruptcy and apostasy. On MOrmonism I reccomend richard Abanes' book "One Nation Under Gods"

Sister_T

11/23/2004 10:37:08 PM

A Missourian? We've got problems with you guys again? Oh great...!

thomasmissouri

11/23/2004 10:14:49 PM

Gee do you think it is time for the Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother of the Unification Church to join the "Christian Community of Believers" ?

thomasmissouri

11/23/2004 10:12:24 PM

Am I mistaken in my belief that according to the doctrine/dogma and creed of the LDS church that all other churches are APOSTATE ? I am pretty sure that several saints have expressed that belief.

Moksha8088

11/22/2004 08:44:19 PM

So he is saying that Jesus din't want us at each others throats after all?

JesseLDS

11/22/2004 05:15:06 PM

Calvinci, I'd like to see that as well. Who knows, it might even spread to Ireland... We can always hope.

calvinci

11/22/2004 01:29:45 PM

This is refreshing news. I would also like to see rapproachment between evangelicals and the Catholic Church. There have been some very nasty things said and done by both sides.

Sister_T

11/20/2004 10:28:41 PM

If only we could all remember that we all have a common goal: to bring our brothers and sisters closer to our Father in Heaven. We may do it in different ways, but we all bear the same message: that Jesus Christ is our Savior, He loves us all very much, and wants us to return to live with Him and our Father in Heaven. May God bless Mr. Mouw as he continues on his journey in life.

JesseLDS

11/20/2004 01:20:13 PM

It is nice to see the two schools of thought trying to understand each other more. Kinda refreshing.

kishkumen7

11/19/2004 03:55:10 PM

Thank God, finally evagelical protestant Christendom comes clean about its misguided attempts to destroy the LDS Church.

Advertisement

Advertisement

Advertisement

DiggDeliciousNewsvineRedditStumbleTechnoratiFacebook