The Rapture Factor

Why conservative Christians' love of Israel is intertwined with the Battle of Armageddon

smc93

08/31/2005 10:08:46 PM

not related to anything in particular that has gone before... ... but the Bnet really could ask an Israeli, Palestinian, Arab, Christian... their opinion. It would in no wise come anywhere near the evangelical opinion. The live on the land too... but in fewer numbers by the day! Yet you will not hear a few, if any, voices speaking on their behalf. It is safe to say that evangelical Christians are largely blissfully ignorant (and this is how the Israeli officials would like to keep them) of how things are on the Ground/Land IN Israel/Palestine. Such gullibility is advantageous (notice I did not say 'helpful') to a certain sort of Israeli citizen. Many Israelis want real Peace and they know that the attitude of evangelical Christians is not only based upon ignorance but also is harmful and hateful in its logocal conclusion... affecting Christians on the Land NOW. please G_d!

kingson100

08/20/2005 11:00:14 AM

Heretic, you have it partly right. It's spiritual and literal. When Yahshua said we should feed our enemies, did he mean entirely spiritual bread or does this include literal bread also? I will pray in the Spirit and also with my understanding. He is the Door. Literal or spiritual? The gates of the New Jerusalem are named for the twelve tribes of Israel. There is no Baptist door, or Lutheran door, or even a Christian door. Which gate are you going in by? Oh well if it's all just "spiritual" then there is no "literal" New Jerusalem and none of these scritures matter. The New Jerusalem is "real" literal and spiritual. There will be a comming golden age when King David sits on his "real" throne and rules from Jerusalem. Now is the time of restoration of all things.

kingson100

08/20/2005 10:47:58 AM

ArtistSpirit, thank you for your comment. Your opinion, and those like yours, are predicted in Scripture. And they shall say, "Where is the promise of His comming, for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were." Yahshua is comming back the same way that He left. And if the righteous are scarely saved, where shall the ungodly stand?

Heretic_for_Christ

08/19/2005 03:43:57 PM

Always, fundamentalists and evangelicals get it wrong, because they always think in literalist terms about their own doctrine while ignoring Jesus' spiritual teachings. The "rapture" and the "end-times" are a childish fantasy about an avenging God coming back to play out the role of "My dad can beat up your dad." That is not what Jesus' ministry was all about. It was about the kingdom of God within us - all of us, at all times, if only we would awaken to its presence and let its light shine forth from within ourselves.

ArtistSpirit

08/19/2005 02:45:45 PM

Jesus is not coming back....how many times in history has his return been predicted and it never happened...he came back for the people of his time...and what needed to happen already took place back then...

MEMA8847

08/19/2005 11:17:57 AM

Never doubt for one minute that the Israel of today isnt the Israel who shall inherit all that God has declared.Christ will come back,and set up His 1000 year reign from Jerusalem.The bible even speaks of where He will land.."the Mount of Olives" shall be split in two at His coming and every eye shall see Him and the Jews shall mourn for Him as one who mourns the loss of their first born.Now how do you suppose every eye shall see Him return? Easy,telstar or satelite tv...no problem for modern man..even so,come quickly Lord Jesus! The rapture of the Bride of Christ ie the true believers will be raptured 7 years before that great and dreadful day for the Christ rejecting world.

kingson100

08/18/2005 10:26:50 PM

When the two houses of Israel are reunited there will be one kingdom and One King. When Ephraim returns to join his brothers we will probably need that land in Gaza and more.

thinkabit

08/15/2005 03:48:21 PM

...part 2 As far as land. Who is it that has the only REAL hope of "inheriting the land"? According to King David and to Jesus, "the MEEK shall inherit the land" The land is come, not by unjust politics and bloody wars and terrorism - these people will certainly NOT inherit the land. The Meek will remain strong, trust His promises, submit to the loving laws of His kingdom (which goes BEYOND political boundaries) humbly await the day when the Just One returns and divides the land of the New earth to those who deserve it - the MEEK. This good news of hope is for ALL who share the faith of Abraham - Jew, Palestinian, European, Arab, Turk, etc.

thinkabit

08/15/2005 03:40:06 PM

I've studied the Bible for years, and frankly, find it quite confusing whether the Israel in prophecy really is this modern state of Israel, or a more figurative, "we are children of Abraham who share the faith of Abraham". Believing Gentiles in the descendant of Abraham through whom the WHOLE WORLD (not just Israel) would be blessed, are "grafted in" to Israel. Does that mean the "state of Israel?" Obviously that doesn't make sense. (continued next...

yankeedoodle

08/15/2005 02:18:48 PM

IsRAEL WILL EMERGE VICTORIous in the End!PROPHeCY FULFILLED! Keep your Eyes fixed on the Eastern Skies FOlks His return is Nigh even at your very Door step.

Heretic_for_Christ

07/08/2005 08:49:08 AM

Christian millenialist notions about Israel and the "end times" are hogwash. If Christians care about the truth, they will forget all that drivel, forget about whether Israel today is or is not the same as biblical Israel, and face the one salient fact: Israel is a westernized secular democracy in a region that is otherwise theocratic-autocratic. Millenialist Christian dogma dictates support for Israel as a state even as they look forward eagerly to the return of an avenging Jesus who will wipe out all Jews along with everyone else who isn't a self-styled "born again." Pseudointellectual left-wing PC dogma about Israel is full of hyperbole and lies, preaching that Israel is evil and genocidal even as they insist (perhaps truthfully) that they are not motivated by classic anti-Semitism. It's hard to decide which group deserves more contempt.

BillThinks4Himself

07/07/2005 04:01:47 PM

Early Christians, like the Jews of their time, saw their hopes in concrete, physical terms - which is why they looked to Jesus as the messiah. But the death of Jesus, like the destruction of the temple for Jews, required a paradigm shift. The physical was replaced by the metaphysical. The physical messiah was replaced by the holy church. The holy land was replaced by the holy faith. Concern for the nation was replaced by concern for the soul. All this reminds me of the basic differences between Apple and Windows. Judaism, like Apple, had vertical integration of hardware and software (a Jewish homeland and faith). Christianity, like Windows, was a system in need of a host. Its objective became market dominance. And it became extremely successful. If you had dominance of Europe and the Americas, would you care about Palestine?

Dovidl

07/05/2005 04:20:15 PM

What in the world does that mean?

natureboy_the0

07/05/2005 08:04:23 AM

Richard Land said (Americans) support Israel because they believe "God blesses those that bless the Jews and curses those who curse the Jews. Consequently, we believe America needs to bless the Jews and Israel, because if we bless the Jews and support Israel, God blesses us. And if we don't, God curses us." The people of the present nation of Israel are not the Jews that passage of scripture is about. Israel means "endurer" and Matthew 24:13 indicates "but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" and verse 22 say "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flrsh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened". It is those people which that scripture is speaking about.

natureboy_the0

07/05/2005 07:48:41 AM

Are people reading the Bible or guessing what is written in it. The battle the world is calling Armageddon is named in Revelation 16:14 as "the battle of the great day of god almighty". Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) is to protect those who keep their garments and don't let the same of their nakedness show. If we don't see that how can we proclaim how to prepare for the end of th world? See THE BIBLE UNSEALD and WARNING FOR THE TIMES @ http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

tyruler

07/03/2005 02:44:36 AM

The biggest mistake that Evangelical Christians make is they confuse the Biblical Israel with today's immoral, corrupt, and criminal state of Israel which believes it is above following the law.

tyruler

07/03/2005 02:38:59 AM

LivingEZ, The proportion of Jewish population in the world does NOT excuse the conduct of the state of Israel. Israel is a rogue state, that openly and shamelessly flouts U.N. Security Council resolutions. Isn't violating international law one of the primary reasons Bush gave to invade Iraq. But Israel can get away with crimes of occupation, oppression, and land grab of Palestinians. Why? Because it knows the US and its' cowardly politicians (interest groups controlled) will shield it from any criticism at the U.N. or in Congress. No wonder you don't hear of any House and Senate resoltion faintly critical of Israel in any way. Maybe Christians and Muslims will not be preoccupied with every move of Israel if it obeyed international law and did not DESTROY AND ANNEX land that it belonged to Palestine!!!!!!!!!

LivingEZ123

07/02/2005 09:27:23 AM

Politics makes strange bedfellows. Israel is just a political state. The extreme focus on Israel, however, is the result of religion. Jews make up one 10,0000th of 1% of the world’s population but Christians and Muslims are preoccupied with every move it makes. Theology should play no part. Israel fought against the British, gained UN support for statehood, fought a war of independence against invading Arab armies and won. The political reality that Israel controls the land, has a national government, an army and conducts relations as a state with other states makes it a legitimate national state under international law. No national state has to pass a theological test to justify itself. Still you have to make friends where you can find them.

J-Hova

10/11/2004 11:19:01 PM

Well it was predicted in the Bible "SONOFMAN2000". Being a Christian isn't an easy choice to make. After listening to a lot of these posts, I simply refer back to Matthew 5:11. It is scary that if you mention the word Christian or Jew, the anxiety and anger that builds in some people. Even though a Christian has never done anything to them, they have so much hate in their heart. So much built up frustration and for what? It reminds me of a cage full of snarling dogs. After this post like always, there will be whining and a zillion complaints. However, you just have to laugh it off and remembr what matters to you. It doesn't matter that a bunch of posters on beliefnet despise Christianity, because you have millions of followers behind you. Good luck SONOFMAN2000!

SONOFMAN2000

09/12/2004 11:36:51 PM

THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT is not a good day to realize Jesus really is The Messiah. I can't understand why most people today hate Jesus and also His people the Jews and His followers the Christians. Perhaps hating some Jews and Christians are understandable because we are only human, but people! What's your issue with Jesus? Don't you know that in judgement day all your anti-Christ posts will be read? Laugh, because tomorrow we will certainly weep. Even me I'm real worried, not because I'm not sure of my faith, because I'm sure I'm a sinner.

dpatel1511

01/20/2004 02:04:49 PM

Evangelical Christians has the wrong notion of Christ. These people here in the United States support parties that represent the Conservative values, which Jesus was mostly Liberal dealing with social issues. How can anyone love Jesus and support the death penalty? There is much hypocrisy among the Evangelicals.

dpatel1511

01/20/2004 02:04:33 PM

People like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are dangerous to the Christian faith. They believe that Christians are the only people going to heaven, when majority of the people in the world are going to hell. Please! They put out lies on television and other broadcast materials. These people prey on vulnerable and ignorant people. If Jesus was to run for politics, would Christian Coalition vote for him? I do not think so. These people needs to stay out of politics and start preaching the right way or get out of sermons. To read more about Pat Robertson’s past business dealings and corruption, please visit http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/7027/patrobertson.html. This man is a hypocrite calling for democracy and end of other political ways, but he is a friend to some of the worst dictators in Africa. This is because of his diamond business he owns in Africa that shed bloods of innocent people.

rmyron

01/12/2004 01:10:20 PM

Paul says in Gal 3.7 "Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham" (ESV) and in Gal 3.29 "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (ESV). Sounds like the promise to bless/curse those who bless/curse (the descendents of) Abraham has passed from those who are children of Abraham according to the Law (biological descent) to those who are children of Abraham according to faith. Thus to support the present nation state of Israel because of this promise is simply misguided.

rmyron

01/12/2004 01:10:06 PM

Paul says in Gal 3.7 "Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham" (ESV) and in Gal 3.29 "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (ESV). Sounds like the promise to bless/curse those who bless/curse (the descendents of) Abraham has passed from those who are children of Abraham according to the Law (biological descent) to those who are children of Abraham according to faith. Thus to support the present nation state of Israel because of this promise is simply misguided.

bbdh

12/30/2003 04:28:14 PM

Errata: In my last post "not Christians ..." should read "now Christians ....

bbdh

12/30/2003 04:25:43 PM

BS"D Finally, if Jesus is the main reason that non-Jews support Jews in Israel, then that leads me to believe that Jesus has merit. Instead of murdering Jews in Jesus name, not Christians are saving Jewish lives in Jesus name (physically, not rhetorically or spiritually). That's a whole 'nother Jesus! And that new Jesus can stay as long as he likes!!! I'd even grant him honorary citizenship rights in perpetuity. ;-)

bbdh

12/30/2003 04:19:09 PM

BS"D There are those who would say that the proscription against benefitting from something sacrificed to an idol is in effect. But we learn from our sages that Christianity, as practiced by Christians only, is not idolatry. Therefore, the fundamentalist argument falls.

bbdh

12/30/2003 04:15:58 PM

BS"D In Torah we are taught that it is permitted to take advantage of the benefits of a non-Jew who happens to be doing something for their own benefit which also happens to benefit us. We are not taught to question their motives or refuse to partake of any benefits because of the underlying philosophical outlook of the non-Jew. Such proscriptions are only in effect for life-and-death issues.

PakehaTohunga

12/29/2003 03:03:05 PM

"Evangelical" does not necessarily imply "Dispensationalist," which is the relatively recent interpretation of "prophecy"/apocalyptic promulgated by Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHaye, etc. (Check out *Revelation* by M. Robert Mulholland, Jr., for just one example of a different slant.) My roots are in evangelicaldom. I completely reject Dispensationalism. I support an Israel for the same reason I'd support a Kurdistan. A persecuted people deserve their own country. The creation of an Israel and a Palestine by the U.N. was the last stage of carving up the old Ottoman Empire. It was very fair to Arabs, less fair to Jews. Yet, Palestinian Jews were willing to accept it in 1948. Arabs were not. The rest is bloody history.

lizarosier

10/11/2003 08:42:10 PM

Support of Israel is a fundamentally GOOD thing,if it is for reasons of peace and not selfishness on the part of the United States. BUT, it believe none of that really matters in the grand scheme because God's Israel is not of that one nation as we and the Jews know it. It doesn't really matter who is Jew or Gentile because we are all the same in His eyes. Israel will be the "nation" of people who choose to follow God and accepct Him;that will make up Israel, not who is of the right blood. This world will know no peace until the coming of Jesus and after the tribulation (where people will HAVE to choose between God and themselves. Then God will create a new Israel, a new world, where there will be no war, no evil, no suffering.

loveisforever226

10/06/2003 08:14:18 AM

I read the article, and most of it does reflect evangelical's views of Israel. But I don't think saying that Christians are afraid Israel will be destroyed, and somehow change God's plans is accurate at all. What America does won't matter, it won't keep Jesus from returning, or stop the rapture, nor delay it. If we are cruel to Israel, America will receive God's wrath, but prophesy won't be affected.

Mortifyd

08/22/2003 05:32:58 PM

Orthodox Jews that are anti-zionist expected Israel to be founded as a religios Kingdom not a secular state. It has nothing to do with "theft" if anything they believe that G-d commanded us to drive out any other inhabitants.

cjacks

08/10/2003 09:36:49 AM

ChosenFire read the Bible more closely. In the parable of the renters of the house, Jesus indicates the “chosen people” status of the Jews would be revoked, also indicating the third exile of the Jews from Israel would occur when the renters were kicked out of the house. The orthodox Jews do not believe this Israel is valid since it took the land by force. This is stealing and a violation of the Ten Commandments. Read Zechariah 4.6 and 5.3. The book Revelation has the ascension of the saints at the end of the tribulations not at the beginning as end-timers believe. The new chosen people, if there still is one, may well be the Muslims. They are the theological offspring of the first-born. The support of Israel causing Armageddon and the tribulations that all must suffer through sounds more like a punishment than a blessing. Given so many mistakes in peoples support, perhaps Jesus returns as a Muslim to carry out a cleansing of people so inclined to mistakes.

ChosenFire

06/06/2003 01:01:22 PM

As for the issue the article addresses -- the end time return of Jesus Christ -- I don't believe that God's sovreignty depends on man's actions. I don't support Israel because of the role I think that nation will play in the end times -- God is bigger than any nation. That geographical area will play a part in the end times, regardless of who controls it, because God will be God and God will do what is in His plan to do. Men and nations cannot stand in the way.

ChosenFire

06/06/2003 12:58:59 PM

The real issue between Jews and Arabs in Palestine is this: they both come from Abraham, the Jews from Isaac and the Arabs from Ishmael. They both carry God's blessings to Abraham -- that they will become mighty nations, that those who bless them will be blessed and those who curse them will be cursed, that through both, all nations will be blessed. We have been blessed by the culture of the Jews and the oil of the Arabs. We cannot receive God's blessing as a nation by cursing either one, but only by blessing both -- which we do through food programs, liberating oppressed people, etc. As Christians we support Israel because we believe those who bless Israel will be blessed by God.

ChosenFire

06/06/2003 12:55:03 PM

Why shouldn't Christians support Israel? Our faith comes from and through the Jews; the land of Israel is where many of the events in our most sacred book, the Bible, took place; it's natural that, to many Christians, Israel would become an honored land and an honored nation. But the article misses one other main reason why we as Christians support Israel: the Bible states that we should pray for the peace of Jerusalem -- which belonged to Israel before it ever belonged to anyone else -- and that those who help Israel will be blessed.

ChosenFire

06/06/2003 12:52:03 PM

Why don't you try listening to a Christian perspective? The Israelis are no more or less guilty of bloodshed and violence than the entire human race. Yes, they are God's chosen people -- but the Bible also states that God chose to harden their hearts to Christ and come to the Gentiles. This took place in how the Gentiles accepted Christ as the Messiah and the Jews (by and large) haven't. The Bible also states that after the Gentiles (in our current age) have opportunity to come to Christ, that many Jews will, too -- thus God's plan will have come full circle.

bunker1

03/29/2003 08:00:47 PM

When you support Israel you support the blood bath of women, children and innocent men. Remember, this country is/was Palestine. The Jews occupied it and are eating Palestine to death. It is not their right to keep paving houses and humans until there is nothing left but Israeli occupied land. The Jews are coming at Palestinians from all sides and they have no where to go. The Israeli people are heartless cold beings. They are not the chosen people of God. God does not condone their murdering of innocent people for a piece of land. And just remember, the Jews wrote the Bible - they wrote that they are the chosen people.

believer22

03/28/2003 06:11:50 AM

Can't people tell the difference between mythology and fact? Holy hannah. The Jesus story is a myth. It's reality that's sacred, not obscure stories of a holyman kludged together from Babylonian, Greek and Jewish mythology. This has been known for decades... haven't y'all heard about the scientific method?

LighteningWoman

03/20/2003 10:30:59 PM

At this time the Creator God does not love any One Nation more than another. Yet the Jewish People have a special role to fulfill, as far as Prophesy is concerned, for some of them will recognize the Savior. Most others won't as they are looking for Him "in the Clouds" (the Internet is "in the Clouds') and there is only one way that God's Son can be on Earth, like anyone else; His Spirit has to flow through a Body, just like you and I, just like before. Most of Mankind's so-called Prophets, are just that, chosen by Man, not by God...telling them what they want to hear.

LighteningWoman

03/20/2003 10:27:20 PM

Rapture, as I have shared before is the Quickening or Awakening, as one becomes more aware on Spiritual levels, rather than the Physical levels they were used to dealing with. Everyone, will enter the Spirit World, but not all will make it through, being balanced in the two places. The "Crazy" people you see on the street each day are stuck in one level of the Spirit World. It is that place everyone will enter, to see Truth. The "Saints" enter first, so they can guide others through. Only those that become purified once again, Re-Aligned with the Creator's Will through Faith, will be able to "enter" Heaven.

tdogg18

03/07/2003 03:11:01 PM

I am for supporting Israel, there is one thing we need to remember. There are jews that believe that Zionism is unholy.

pdiana

03/05/2003 12:43:26 AM

We have only to look at the history of the Jews for our answer. What became of the nations that went against Israel? Egypt, Canaan, Philistines, Germany, England. All once great nations until they turned against Israel in one form or another. I for one would support them because they are a small nation surrounded by enemies on all sides. If we did not support them would they cease to exist as a nation? Probably not but would we? The Jewish people are not called the moneylenders of the world for nothing you know.

APilone01

02/16/2003 11:03:33 PM

We need to pull together and start praying for our families, our nation and for us to unite as one. God is coming a lot sooner than what everyone thinks. The scripture states that "No one will know the hour nor the day that Christ will come like a Thief in the night." But in the Torah it say it will be on the Holiest Day which the next Holy Day for the Jews is Passover. We need to be on our knees and dont let off of them. Pray for God's Will to be done here on earth as it is in Heaven.

littlemantis

02/05/2003 12:16:34 PM

Jerry seems to have missed the point similar to the fact that Jews did 2000 years ago. There is no chosen people, I believe Christ came to show that we are all equal. The thought of God as a protector is a very primitive version of God. As u gain understanding u, realize that God is creator, an intervenor, and at the highest level a pure love that we r drawn to . There is no Chosen people. Israel is as screwed up with revenge as anyone else. All we have to do is love... There are no justified resentments.

tolerate

01/01/2003 06:27:18 PM

Then to top it all off they just sit back and use Genesis. GENESIS. Of all the books in the Bible, they had to pick the oldest and most out-dated one. Genesis contains primarily lessons and unpleasant stories of death and destruction. How is that Christianity? Christianity is about love and supporting the end of the world is not love, that's evil, that's like Hitler, that's insane. I know Jews who are very uncomfortable about this buddy buddy thing that the Evangelicals have for them. Not becaise they don't like them, but because of their motive.

tolerate

01/01/2003 06:26:55 PM

Evangelicals TERRIFY me and give other Christians a bad name. Everytime we hear about them it's either them spouting off their truly evil purpose to support Israel or one of them went off and sniped out some abortionist. Now, mind you, I do think that abortion is gravely wrong, it does nothing for our political battle against if you kill one of them. Then, when they're off about Israel, they're trying to end the world. Bring about the END of the world. I don't believe anything of what they say about the book of Revelation (in fact I think it shouldn't be in the Bible) because they're reading it out of context. St. John wrote it code to encourage the Christians under Nero. This wasn't any kind of prophetic thing.

steve3927

11/25/2002 05:03:09 PM

Oh, RAPTURE factor. I thought it said RAPTOR. Sorry..my old eyes.

idbc

11/05/2002 04:55:36 PM

Gee, I guess I should have looked at the other posts before. I am postivly redundant.

idbc

11/05/2002 04:52:46 PM

My belief in the right-wing and christian fundementalist's support for Isreal is a bit more cynical and dark. I believe the motive is to egg Isreal on in hopes of making the final confrontation, Armageddon. They want to hasten the Second Coming. I do not believe that this buddy, buddy, elder brother crap is sincere. On a twenty-four hour clock of christ ian history, its been only five minutes since the Jews have been our pals and buds. The rest of the time they've been the "perifidious christ denying, christ killing Jews. A book by Martin Luther called "table talk" goes into greater detail regarding their character.

bluebell4472

11/01/2002 04:44:22 PM

Jerry Falwell has never been elected as spokesperson for Christians. He appointed himself & rather arrogantly I might add. No one Chrstian or denomination has a lock on what the Bible says.Christ sid they're certain things we are not ready to know yet. I have a personal relatinship with God thru Christ. God is Love. Jesus said if you say you love me & don't love your brother you are a liar! Many of our so called religious leaders have been seduced by money,fame,sex,power just like politicians.How many of us would really sell all that we have,give it where it was most needed & follow Him. Even a Christian has to be stripped of is pride&ego before he is of any real use to God.So quit turning people agaist Christianity by professing to to having a lock on who&what Christ was all about. Maybe it's becuse we havn't accepted who we really are. Just one beggar trying to show another beggar (spiritually)where the bread of Life is. Let it begin with me.Love to all, Love in Him that first loved us

John.H.O

10/29/2002 08:14:32 PM

i agree with your statements about hastening the second coming, and the books of revelation and daniel.. however i disagree on your statements about the rapture.. the rapture is not a doctrine endorsed by the bible. the prophets gospels, and revelation all show that we will be here on earth both during the transgression caused by the antichrist... we will suffer... those same books also never speak of being lifted out of this earth, at all... we are not going to heaven people... we are staying here on earth to reign with Christ over his kingdom, as revelation isaiah daniel hosea, joel, micah, ezekiel, psalms, and all the other books of the bible so clearly show!

sybrhodes

10/24/2002 08:40:21 PM

In response to questions on whether Evangelicals can hasten the SECOND COMING, the answer is "No." A careful reading of Revelations and Daniel reveals the seven years STARTS at the signing of the Peace Treaty with the Anti-Christ. The seven year count down does not start with re-building the Temple, which exists after 3 1/2 years, nor with the Rapture. THE RAPTURE, which is different from the Second Coming, is generally taught as occurring prior to the Peace Treaty. In Debbie Caldwell's article on Beliefnet, she took the post-trib position instead, which is not what most Evangelicals believe. Most Evangelicals do NOT wish to hasten the end of the world. Like everyone else, we have friends and family members, who are not ready to meet their maker. Preaching the rapture is meant to encourage our efforts to preach the gospel throughout the world, so others will have time for salvation before the Rapture.

jkopanko

10/11/2002 09:04:04 AM

Jamal, "I am astonished about the fact that the christian right chooses to ignore the fact that there are palestinian Christians" Don't be suprized by ANYTHING that comes from these people. These are not ethically-motivated people with anything related to Jesus (i.e. compassion, love, universal brotherhood, social justice, pacifism) at heart. These are truly nothing but far-right political activists, who use the mantle of "religion" to lend some credibility to their regressive, PURELY self-serving, hateful social agenda. These are, quite literally, the American equialents of al Qaeda spokespersons. ... and it shouldn't be forgotten that they form a key core-constutuency of the current government (Bush II), and serious attention IS paid to their reactionary lobbying by it.

arielg

10/08/2002 06:24:20 PM

This just shows the idiotic extremes to which a mind hijacked by belief can reach. This is why the Buddha never answered questions about God and matters related to it.The undeveloped mind is unable to grasp the meaning of such concepts, makes a mess out of these ideas and uses them to justify their actions, which are based on their twisted logic.

msb

10/08/2002 05:27:21 PM

Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Franklin Graham, and other modern- days scribes and Pharisees think they can force the divine outcome and hasten the return of Jesus by supporting an evil ossupation. They should have learned from the example of those who carried the Arch of the Covenant into battle to insure victory. Or are they oblivious to Jesus'own words to his people when he uttered this dire warning: " Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation producing the fruits thereof, and whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” Matthew: 21:43-44 So Let them try as they may breaking this stone, they shall only reap failure and eternal shame.

jamal2050

10/08/2002 04:57:45 PM

I am astonished about the fact that the christian right chooses to ignore the fact that there are palestinian Christians who oppose Israeli policy. They choose to stand against the last Christians in the Holy Land supporting an apartheid state. I wonder what Jesus would have said?

msb

10/08/2002 04:27:56 PM

"Apocalypse advocates have been repeating this line for the last 2,000 years and nothing has yet happened. Even Paul thought it was imminent." By falsely preaching that Jesus' return was imminent, Paul, who was no prophet, only confused the issue. Jesus did not preach his speedy return (although falsely attributed to him) but the imminence of the kingdom of God and its head, the " Spirit of Truth", ie. the awaited Messiah. Got it !!!

loko

10/08/2002 02:35:25 PM

"As concerning his second return, it looks imminent now that violence and sin have multiplied on the face of the earth." Apocalypse advocates have been repeating this line for the last 2,000 years and nothing has yet happened. Even Paul thought it was imminent. The world has always witnessed a mulitiplication of evil and sin. Back in the Fourties, folks thought that Hitler was the anti-Christ; still, the end of the world didn't come. The Messiah is a Jewish illusion of, after being continuously beaten by virtually every neighboring country in the OT, having their own human king who would "right things" for them and subjugate all the other kingdoms of the earth. It's what they've always been wishing for, expecting, and will never happen.

jkopanko

10/08/2002 02:19:21 PM

msb, i don't normally get involved with this, but could you please more precisely cite your source for these quotes? Thanks, jk

msb

10/08/2002 01:34:56 PM

Concerning the universal "Messiah" or better the messenger of God to all men, read on: "..Then said Jesus: 'And the messenger of God when he shall come, of what lineage will he be?' The disciples answered: 'Of David.' Whereupon Jesus said: 'Ye deceive yourselves; for David in spirit calleth him lord, saying thus: "God said to my lord, sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool. God shall send forth thy rod which shall have lordship in the midst of thine enemies." If the messenger of God whom ye call Messiah were son of David, how should David call him lord? Believe me, for verily I say to you, that the promise was made in Ishmael, not in Isaac.' Jesus of Nazareth As faithfully recorded by his "Beloved disciple"

msb

10/08/2002 01:28:52 PM

"Folks, get this thing straight: Jesus was not the expected Jewish Messiah." You are half right. Jesus was the "annointed one" to the children of Israel foretold in Daniel and their last chance to amend their ways but he was not the universal and gentile "Messiah" sent by God to all mankind. As concerning his second return, it looks imminent now that violence and sin have multiplied on the face of the earth: "But I shall return towards the end, and with me shall come Enoch and Elijah, and we will testify against the wicked, whose end shall be accursed." Jesus of Nazareth As faithfully recorded by his "Beloved Disciple". "

loko

10/08/2002 11:13:07 AM

Folks, get this thing straight: Jesus was not the expected Jewish Messiah. He didn't fulfill any Messianic prophecy during his time on earth. This Second Coming business is only to cover for his unfilfillment of the expectations. Nothing in the OT predicts or even suggests a second coming. With the Second Coming facade, anyone here can claim messiahship and say he would return after their deaths to fulfill the expectations. WAKE UP!!!

WillSea

10/08/2002 10:17:31 AM

Methinks the radical right are going to experience a RUPTURE of their belief system, well before there's any Rapture. By putting forth their ideas of hate, of judging this group over that, of denying the expression of God in all people, they are bringing about their own demise, will reap only what they sow. And this will be a perfect manifestation, a perfect cause-and effect of their own beliefs, a perfect return on their investment of ignorance, hate and judgment. And that's the Law of God in action. And so it is!

themarirev

10/08/2002 10:04:41 AM

"Jerry Falwell is still a far cry from U bin Laden." Why? Because he dresses differently? "You can choose to disregard Falwells words chosen under free speach." To wrap condemnation, hypocrisy and bigotry in the flag of freedom only tarnishes the foundation of our country. It does not make his rhetoric honest or valid. "But it is hard to disregard an aircraft hijacked by murderrs flying into your office." HMMM, I wonder how hard it was for those bombed in Pakistan to disreguard the death of their children by the "Hitler" of Isreal. Genocide done slowly is still genocide. Even when "protecting" themsleves from the poverty stricken that simply wish to exist on this earth. If we had paid attention to others on our planet before this, maybe, just maybe the WTC would not have happened. It's not difficult to disreguard anything. It cost us alot to drop our arrogance in believing we are too special to have to answer to the wrath of "Yang". Rev

jkopanko

10/08/2002 08:30:05 AM

Human, "You can choose to disregard Falwells words chosen under free speach." You can "choose" to do this if he's not directly slandering, defaming and engaging in deliberate, direct civil advocacy against YOU for the purpose of creating a second-class civil status for you. However when he is, you will find that it's not such a benign affair. It's actually says something about your own moral integrity that you'd be so quick to dismiss the persecution of others unless directly affected yourself.

human1

10/07/2002 08:16:31 PM

rev....while I can understand your passion there...Jerry Falwell is still a far cry from U bin Laden. You can choose to disregard Falwells words chosen under free speach. But it is hard to disregard an aircraft hijacked by murderors flying into your office.

themarirev

10/07/2002 12:21:22 PM

Geez, I thought there was alot of unhappiness in our counntry. However, Jerry Falwell and his circle of verbal terroists has yet again proven their great joy. Ignorance IS bliss you know. For it is truly ignorant to place biblical boundries on land that Gods childern need to exsist. Oh I forgot, ONLY Jews and Christains are really Gods Children. Jerrys rhetoric only provng his faith in himself and his lack of faith in God. For if he had the faith the size of a mustard seed, he would know he could keep his mouth shut and God will still do what God wants done. PLEASE people, start calling these people what they are, VERBAL TERRORISTS and are just as much a part of this war on terrorism as Usama Bin Laden. For just as with Usama, his WORDS are what compelled his followers into murder for "Gods sake". I see no difference with Jerry Falwell. Rev

jkopanko

10/07/2002 11:32:31 AM

Why did former rural Southern Christian organizations, which 40 years ago disdained Jews, integration and racial equality, become organizations which today stridently promote Israel, and campaign most agressively against civil equality for gay and lesbian people? The nature of these organizations is fundamentally... Fundamentalist and non-rational, insular, and highly politicized. These organizations do not assess their stance on issues with an eye toward ethical fairness, objectivity, and do not arrive at them through intellectual reasoning. Their stances are derrived from current popular interpretation of scriptual writings filtered, traditionally, through the lens of theatrical charasmatic ministers originating from and speaking to rural, non-diverse, insular communities... which happened to be traditionally xenophobic toward outsiders, in the wake of the confederate defeat during the civil war, and subsequent federal intervention (by "outsiders") in the civil rights era. (continued below)

jkopanko

10/07/2002 11:32:13 AM

(continued below) The culture aligned itself with and (and helped shape) a far-right wing of the Republican party, becoming HIGLY politicized during the late 70s and 80's. It did this in response to the Democratic party's emphatic embracing of the ideals of civil equality, which it saw as agressive toward it's traditional cultural stances. This Southern Evangelical movement and far-Right politics have over the past 20 years become inexorably intertwined so that it's impossible to state where one entity ends and the other begins. Follow the far-right political agenda--pro-gun, anti-choice, anti-gay (and other forms of civil rights), militarist, pro-censorship, etc.--and there you will also find the Falwell/Robertson types. JK

tmaster1

10/06/2002 10:45:39 PM

[CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST] In short, the place where the tribes of Israel went for refuge was Kashmir. It is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that the Kashmiri people are descended from those tribes. Jesus and Moses both are buried in Kashmir [see Kersten, Nazir Ahmad, Kaiser, Salahuddin, and others]. So, this entire myth about Israel, "the promised land" is the center of the evangelical movement's DESIRE for World War III. Because that's what Falwell and others will lead us to. Try to open your mind and then realize that you've been deceived. I implore you to read my profile and follow through. The issue if Jesus in India is a subset of the wider issue of Bani Israel (the Children of Israel) in Kashmir. Since people DON'T KNOW the history, idiots like Falwell can manipulate their congregations and followers. HINT: READ!!

tmaster1

10/06/2002 10:41:02 PM

[CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST BELOW] Also, the Bible claims that this Promised Land was heavy with rain, littered with hills and valleys. That's NOT Israel. There is a short wet winter in Israel, followed by a dry summer with perhaps NO drop of rain for five or six months. [CONTINUED NEXT POST]

LairdsChapel

10/06/2002 10:36:55 PM

Nobody died (on the cross) and left Jerry Falwell boss. Lairds' Chapel

tmaster1

10/06/2002 10:36:49 PM

[CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST BELOW] Also, the 5 markers mentioned in the Bible [Beth-peor, Moab, Nebo, Pisga & Hasbal] are NOT in Israel, but are ALL to be found in Kashmir, where the 10 so-called "lost" tribes of Israel migrated, and where they lived in peace for centuries. [SEE NEXT POST ABOVE]

tmaster1

10/06/2002 10:34:58 PM

A Couple of Important Posts: The "promised land" mentioned in the Bible was not what is now called "Israel." That's part of this entire mythical concept of "Israel" in its false role as an apocalyptic preceptor for the so-called "return" of Jesus. The eastern border of Palestine, at the time of Moses, touched the river Jordan. The direction to look eastward EXCLUDES Palestine entirely. Therefore it was NOT the Holy Land which Moses made to see. [SEE NEXT POST ABOVE]

msb

10/06/2002 12:33:23 PM

By trying to force future apocalyptic events through an unjust support to the evil oppression and dispossession of the Palestinian people in the Holy land, the Christian religious right in this country and elsewhere are setting the stage not for the return of Jesus but for the Anti-Christ and the great deception. Truth does not dwell where there is injustice and the Christian right is in for an unpleasant surprise when God's righteous judgment shall be revealed to the whole world. And who knows, it may be sooner than their own plans.

DawnLouise

10/06/2002 11:28:02 AM

Where is the faith, in trying to legalize prophecy. Either these are the end times or they are not. Supporting Israel, mistakes or no, will not change that fact. Israel always understood, God's power is beyond prophecy. Why do people need events and circumstances to prove God is true. Or, are they trying to prove they are right. If it is prophecy foretold, and if it is the time, then, the path will follow the course set, mans' actions one way or another will not hender it, nor force it to be now. Maybe evangelicals, can do more to bring about the return of Christ, by following instructions, instead of justifying the judgement that hurt so much with excuses. By caring for the tenderest blade of grass, and drop proving themselves right.

Zero-Equals-Infinity

10/06/2002 10:18:12 AM

When will people realize that these evangelicals are insane, and that many are often in ways subtle and gross doing what they can to bring about their vision of Armageddon. Remember James Watt, the former Secretary of the Interior under Ronald Reagan. He was unconcerned about environmental damage because he believed that he and his ilk would be raptured before it became a problem. Until people recognize this undercurrent in the evangelical-political relationship, the influence of these apocalyptic visions upon political positions and actions will continue. There is a danger here, that these beliefs will exert themselves upon the world in a dangerous and none to subtle fashion. God save me from your misguided followers.

namchuck

09/20/2002 05:53:13 PM

To believe, spiritbride, that there is an underlying unity in the scriptures of prophecy, not only in the gospels but throughout several books of the bible is simply to acknowledge that one lives in a world of total fantasy. The list of failed biblical prophecy is considerable and eclipsed only by the books thorough-going inconsistencies and contradictions. You charge me with illogic while, at the same time, believing that the Earth is just some kind of demolition site awaiting destruction and reconstruction. And all this, and more, on the basis of the ramblings of prescientific Bronze Age nomadic tribesmen and a handful of delusional disciples of a failed messiah. Oh, you are a fundamentalist alright.

spiritbride

09/20/2002 03:09:06 PM

Anyway.. your the king of b.s. namchuck, but I admire your tenacity.. you'll have to carry on your discussion with someone else.. bye.. BTW.. the one thing we both agree on is neither one of us support more war..

spiritbride

09/20/2002 02:59:24 PM

To the contray namchuck, there is an underlying unity in the scriptures of prophecy, not only in the gospels but throughout several books of the Bible, that clearly points to an event of unknown date in which there will be war and in which asteriods will impact the earth.. and leaving religion entirely aside, science and history say this will most likely happen.. And you have proven nothing concerning what Jesus really said or believed.. outside of a theory that is not sound logically.. But the most important thing you have missed namchuck, isn't cerebreal, it is what intuition and your heart say that leads to a "enlightenment" in which you understand the commuion of things, including insights into the future.. E.S.P. namchuck.. "what a concept!".. And I am not a fundamentalist..

namchuck

09/19/2002 06:29:24 PM

(con'td) I have little doubt that Jesus sincerely believed his own prediction. In fact, I believe Jesus reasoned out the implications of his beliefs and followed them to the uttermost in simple faithfulness. And - it was precisely because the end of the world was so near, because God was so near, that his ethics were among the purest ever preached. There was no need to compromise anymore. In those last few months, love and goodness could be absolute, with no clance over the shoulder at the consequences. What though you went hungry or cold, or were beaten or imprisoned? The reward was in sight, a hundredfold. It was precisely because Jesus believed in a mirage that he could be one of the greatest hero's and teachers in history, totally without reservation.

namchuck

09/19/2002 06:11:46 PM

(con'td) The very fact that the Gospels have to be written means that some fairly desperate measures have become necessary to preserve the faith - measures undreamed of in the first twenty or thirty years after Jesus' death. So, spiritbride, it is not just 'some passages', but copious amounts of scripture, plus the undeniable historical facts and context that lead one to conclude that Jesus' prediction failed. It was only much later that the great game of reinterpretation became necessary to comfort a disappointed Church and turn aside the jeers of outsiders. A game open to anyone with a theory that could remotely be made to fit those ambiguous brief records in the Gospels. The game has gone on ever since. But why let the truth spoil a good story?

namchuck

09/19/2002 05:55:51 PM

You appear to thrive on misunderstanding and misrepresentation, spiritbride. Not an unknown phenomena among fundamentalists. Obviously many passages of scripture can have other meanings (the intricacies and complexities of ancient and foreign languages and culture will always insure this). Why, otherwise, could you have as many different, and often contrary, interpretations of the bible as there are denominations in Christendom? One gets a more secure foothold on it, though, by taking into account its historical matrix. When one looks unbiasedly at the sayings of Jesus pertaining to his belief/prediction of his imminent return with the Kingdom, and the fact that the Church is waiting the second coming - and they expect it daily - and their embarrassment that it delays so long; all this the records agree at least upon.

spiritbride

09/19/2002 08:58:52 AM

First you agree that some passages may have other meanings, then you read your own 'out of context' presuppositions into the gospel story.. You say there are many other passages with the same inference, but totally ignore the much larger amount of scripture passages that contradict what you insist is true.. as well as the whole context of the dialogs in which you have found you insignificant bits of apparent contridictions to prophecy.. Then you say you are an honest atheist.. my, what a tangled web we weave..

namchuck

09/18/2002 09:25:09 PM

I am only identifying what you, with your vested interests, are unwilling to face. I repeat, I have studied the original languages of the bible and am also very familiar with how much it can be contorted by the blind filter of faith. I wonder who truly mocks Jesus when his words must be subservient to the assumptions of his followers assinine presuppositions. Perhaps God prefers an honest atheist to the hermetic piety of a fundamentalist.

namchuck

09/18/2002 09:15:09 PM

(con'td) Further, I have studied the original text, and you cannot escape the meaning of Jesus' words in Luke 9:26-27(and the many others with the same inference). Even putting aside what Jesus himself may have thought, his followers after his death were convinced that his return was to be expected at any moment. This is why nobody troubled to write his story. It was only when the kingdom failed, day after day, month after month, year after year, to break upon the world - when some of his disciples had died and new recruits had to be instructed in the expectations of the group - that people began to collect the stories told of Jesus and to write them down. Incidentally, spiritbride, the verse, the kingdom of God is within you, can have other possible meanings, like the kingdom of God is within your grasp and suddenly the Kingdom of God will be among you.

spiritbride

09/18/2002 09:10:52 PM

Why am I not suprised that you will find any excuse you can to deny the truth.. Did you study the origional text yourself namchuck, or are you maintaining a presuppotion of your own? What you call sleight of hand on my part is really your own 'very large amount' of denial.. Just like you would like to deny that you have mocked Christ.. Just like you would like to deny all the contradictions of your position.. Just like you would like to deny that you have a large amount of prejudice against believers in yourself.. Just like you would like to deny that you care very little about other peoples feelings when you attack their beliefs.. BTW..blasphemy, 'profane or contempttuous speech, writing, or action concerning God or anything held as divine..WEBSTERS DICTOINARY The amazing thing is that God still loves you, namchuck, which just goes to show how truely amazing God is.. :-D

namchuck

09/18/2002 05:10:23 PM

(con'td) And I do not see just where I 'mocked Jesus', spiritbride, or is it, perhaps, that any critique of your security system is considered blasphemy? In response to your question as to why I would care of being accused of blasphemy, it is so much that I care but, rather, that I have always been curious as to why, despite their master's admonition against it, believers are so quick to judge (or maybe you have a different translation of that advice?).

namchuck

09/18/2002 04:58:46 PM

Your attempts at scriptural sleight-of-hand, spiritbride, only indicates that you are in a state of denial. I've encountered these kind of semantic gymnastics before from believers who will go to just about any length, even claiming superior translating abilities, to sustain a favoured presupposition. The weight of dozens of scriptural references, were one doesn't have to wrest the meanings, clearly shows that Jesus, and the early Christians, were convinced of his imminent return. And I wouldn't deny that war is almost invariably fought for 'reasons of greed'. The Old Testament is full of horrendous slaughters with just this motivation, rationalized, as they were, by the belief that the horrors were ordered, committed, or approved by God.

spiritbride

09/18/2002 02:15:47 AM

continued.. The proof of this can be seen by studying the original text; if you do this you will discover that, ‘See’ can be translated as ‘Perceive’ ‘Kingdom’ can be translated as ‘Royalty’ ‘Come’ can be translated as ‘Grow’ Further, Jesus said, “the kingdom of heaven is within in you..” He also said, “Jerusalem would be trodden down by the gentiles until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled..” He also said that, “no one knows the time, neither the angels, or the son..” Therefore, though it seems chiefly to have regard to his coming, to show his regal power and authority; the reference is to the firm establishment, in the lifetime of some then present, of that new kingdom of Christ, which would remain forever..

spiritbride

09/18/2002 02:13:09 AM

You claim to know something about the Bible namchuck.. Tell me how you get “start a war” out of “love your enemies?” It is you namchuck who has religious fantasies.. There is not a single case where a war was not actually fought for reasons of greed; A lust for power or money or land. .. With the offense always claiming to be the defense.. And as far as your mistaken interpretation of Luke 9:27 Jesus was talking about his resurrection in the same dialogue; Luke 9:22 Rather then speaking of his second coming at the end of the age he was speaking of the appearance of his kingdom, in greater glory and power, upon his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension to heaven; when the Spirit was poured down in an extraordinary manner, and the Gospel was preached all over the world; which many then present lived to see

spiritbride

09/17/2002 04:46:43 PM

Guess you didn't read the dictionary or the newspaper.. And if you don't believe in God why to care if someone says your speaking blasphemy? First you mock Christ and then say you know what a christian should sound like.. Your full of contradictions and cannot see them .. But then, you meet all kinds.

namchuck

09/14/2002 05:43:35 PM

(con'td) By the way, I guess you couldn't follow up on your judgement of ascribing blasphemy to me. To charge somebody with such a heinous charge, and then direct them to a dictionary for elucidation, doesn't sound very Christian to me. But then, you meet all kinds.

namchuck

09/14/2002 05:25:40 PM

You are talking utter nonsense, spiritbride, and I don't think you have the nous to see it. It has almost invariably been belief and the pride of being God-believers (and its correlary:prophecy) that has brought immense blood and horror on this planet. And the zealots, terrorists, and governments have not just used religion simply as propaganda, they have been ensconced in mindless belief. The inventory of nullities one could list that religious belief has evoked is stupendous and an indictment on those who have sacrificed reason on the altar of stupidity.

spiritbride

09/14/2002 12:07:47 PM

The answers to your questions namchuck are in the dictionary and on the front page of newspapers world wide.. It will not be belief in prophecy that brings war..it will be unbelief and pride.. and of course zealots and terrorists and governments will use religion as propaganda.. like they always have..

namchuck

09/13/2002 04:48:04 PM

I think your ossified belief system has rended you delirious, spiritbride. I now have even less idea what you are talking about. How did we suddenly get on to hostile corporate takeover(s) by the right wing? And exactly what was the nature of my blasphemy? I think your take on this should be enlightening.

spiritbride

09/13/2002 01:46:26 AM

What part of the hostile corporate takeover by the right wing didn't you understand.. while your looking for spooks the governments of the world are rolling the dice.. No indeed yours is the much better idea of saving the world through blashpemy.. truly smart numchuck.. next I bet you'll have the origional idea of blaming the christians..

namchuck

09/12/2002 09:19:31 PM

No, spiritbride, I leave prophecy to the cerebrally challenged, who certainly haven't considered what belief in prophecy implies.

spiritbride

09/12/2002 12:10:07 AM

A prophecy, namchuck?

namchuck

09/11/2002 06:58:28 AM

I don't think it really matters anymore, LiteratureMajorRH, whether Israel is Zionist or otherwise. They are a little country surrounded by a sea of enemies hell-bent on their eradication. While Zionism played a vital role in the establishment of the State of Israel, I would suggest that most Israeli's now are more concerned with just getting on with their lives than aligning themselves with any fanciful ideologies. Unfortunately, the fundamentalist Arab world, and the small fundamentalist religious elements within Israel itself, are equally determined to play out their religious fantasies at the cost of the welfare of the whole region, if not the world.

namchuck

09/10/2002 08:00:06 PM

spiritbride: Is it a real one or a doll?

spiritbride

09/10/2002 12:52:50 PM

I am holding the baby..

LiteratureMajorRH

09/09/2002 10:20:44 PM

I think a lot of fundamentalists are missing one critical factor; there is a substantial difference between zionists and Jews. It is up to each individual to decide if modern Israelis are zionists, who are more concerned with their geneaology and Israeli nationalism, or Jews, who are concerned with following the laws and worshipping God. Politically I feel Israel today is a zionist, and not a jewish regime, your thoughts please. RH

namchuck

09/09/2002 05:33:00 PM

Sometimes, spiritbride, removing the bath water helps you realize that there is no baby in it.

spiritbride

09/09/2002 01:40:28 AM

I for one, do not intend to throw the baby out with the bath water.. :-D

namchuck

09/07/2002 05:50:48 PM

Considering that all the good arguments for God, the Design, the Ontological, and the First Cause arguments have all thoroughly collapsed, adding to this the innumerable inconsistencies and contradictions in the source document (the Apostle Paul said to disregard jewish fable, like the entire bible maybe? Titus 1:14) I fail to see why anyone would want to filter their senses through such a dubious frame of reference. As Sir James Fraser said: 'Magic, religion, and science are an advancing series.' Perhaps it's time to cease the pretence to some non-existent spiritual advantage.

namchuck

09/07/2002 05:40:33 PM

So was Jesus a loaf of bread dropped from the sky when he said I am the bread of life, or do the words have an alternative meaning? Well, which way is the wind blowing? Over years of discussion with bibliolators, the varying interpretations of given verses seems to depend entirely on the particular flavour of the Christianity being espoused. Given that the Gospels that supposedly record Jesus' words were not written until much later on (they were not expecting they would have to write anything, given Jesus' prediction of his soon return with his kingdom), how can you be so sure Jesus' said any of the things attributed to him. The Gospel authors admit they are writing religious propaganda (John 20:31) which is a clue that it should be taken with a grain of salt.

namchuck

09/07/2002 05:27:05 PM

namchuck you are really comic. Hey, spiritbride, I'm pleased that I can, at least, provide you with a few laughs. That would altogether balance the ledger. I don't know if I could be a better creator than your supposed God, but anyone with some engineering skill could certainly have done a better job. Take the human eye as an example. It is not 'designed' very well at all, certainly not as well as the eye of mollusks such as squids and octopuses. Perhaps God cares more for squids than for humans (or, perhaps, the human eye is the result of natural processes that are genuinely uncaring and blind?). What I was pointing out in regard to the bible, was that it's a purely human document (and a great one at that) with all the inconsistencies and contradictions that one would expect as a consequence. Even though I would consider a literal view of the bible to be perverse, at least those who hold to it are more consistent than those with a cafeteria approach.

spiritbride

09/06/2002 01:45:22 PM

What about these scriptures? How do you explain them? "Before Abraham was , I am" Jhn 8:58 "He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die..." Jhn 11:25-26 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but the God of the living." Mt 22:32

spiritbride

09/06/2002 01:30:57 PM

So was Jesus a loaf of bread dropped from the sky when he said I am the bread from heaven, or do the words have an alternative meaning? And what about the resurrection? would not that also be the fullfilling of "Luke's" writings in chapter 9 verse 27? it was what Jesus was talking about in verse 22..

spiritbride

09/06/2002 01:10:24 PM

Dearest namchuck, in reguard to your recent iquiry... :-D you have said before that the bible is full of contradictions and lies, and yet you hold to an argument that is based on a strictly literal translation 'and interpretation' of this same bible.. -1 + 1 does not =2 Why is it so hard for you to accept that the fault lies not with Jesus or prophecy but with the nature of writing, translating, and interpreting ancient documents?

spiritbride

09/06/2002 12:19:36 AM

ooops..and i said i wasn't speaking.. guess i made a false prediction... :-D

spiritbride

09/06/2002 12:18:02 AM

But I have to tell you this pre trib rapture bit is really annoying.. and dangerous..

spiritbride

09/06/2002 12:16:07 AM

namchuck you really are comic.. now you are saying you know what Jesus was thinking and that you know how to be a better creator than God..which of course is proof of everything you say.. because you are an expert witness.. because you say you are.. LOL

namchuck

09/06/2002 12:10:57 AM

I admire your honesty, CalvaryH1982, but I wonder how, as a biblical literalist, you would rationalize, say, the contradiction in creative order in the two accounts of creation in the Book of Genesis, or the inconsistencies in the double account of Noah's flood? And, I guess, that conversion of the Jews you mention will be exactly 144,000, not one hundred and forty-four thousand thousand and two or three?

CalvaryH1982

09/05/2002 06:07:27 PM

also the world will not end, just the world as we know it.

CalvaryH1982

09/05/2002 06:06:24 PM

Yes, we are in the end times. Yes, we must take the Bible literally. To say that Revelations is just symbolic is the same as saying God parting the Red Sea is symbolic. Either you believe it all or not. To pick out what you like and don't like, no, that will not do. God can see through that, and He knows your heart. God will rapture the church when the last person who will ever be saved is, and then we will all be "caught up" to Heaven. There will be believers during the tribulation simply because those who were always on the brink of salvation will realize what has happened and will be saved. Plus there will be the 144,000 jews who will converted, so there will be plenty of witnesses left. The world will experience what it is stated in the bible, from the Antichrist to the worldwide earthquake. And I personally see it happening sooner than later.

namchuck

09/04/2002 04:47:50 AM

spiritbride: 'But I tell you a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death till they see the kingdom of God.' (Luke 9:27) Whether you like it or not, and you obviously don't, this, conflated with many other verses, was Jesus' understanding. He saw himself coming in glory (Luke9:26) and in the time of many who were then hearing his voice. In regard to the suffering of the innocent: the invoking of God's inscrutability, or some master plan, does not alter the fact that, if God is both omniscient and omnipotent, he could have made things differently. That he choose not to certainly implies that their are no benevolent superbeings.

chair

08/29/2002 04:13:39 PM

All of this discussion shows up how dangerous it is to view the Bible literaly i.e. to view the mere ink-on-paper as authoritative. Saying "thus saith the Lord" asd a preface to a course of action or position held has been used to justify all kinds of evil such as the Inquisition or the persecution of Anabaptists in Calvin's Geneva. It makes more sense to look at the sense of Scripture and the spirit in which it is interpreted rather than as a blanket sanction of the kinds of evil perpetrated by war criminals like Ariel Sharon and supported by the likes of Tim La Hay, Franklin Graham and others of a fundamentalist persuasion. Perhaps my evangelical brethren would be taken more seriously if they spoke up about the evil treatment meted out by Sharon on an innocent Palestinian population.

spiritbride

08/26/2002 04:06:34 PM

Job said that he knew he would see the Lord's coming with his own eyes.. and the book of Job is perhaps a good book to consider in reguard to the coming tribulation.. Job did not believe in a punitive God, however, his friends did and this displeased God. Job wondered why the innocent suffer, and God's answer was simlpy that it is in his wisdom that things are the way they are, further God rewarded Job for his patience.. The book of Revelations also says that we must have the patients..

spiritbride

08/26/2002 03:49:33 PM

And to those it may concern.. besides namchuck.. The dead shall see his coming also, further, any real prophecy comes from communion with God who is in a timeless eternity and in whom all things are joined together.. this leaves the impression of an imediate nature.. moreover, the spirit of the antichrist is just that, a spirit.. this same spirit was there in the destruction of Jerusalem, has repeated itself throughout history, was in Hitler, and will present itself again in the last days..

spiritbride

08/26/2002 03:35:06 PM

And I believe in a rapture, only I believe that it is at the last trumpet.. then we shall be gather together..

spiritbride

08/26/2002 03:31:39 PM

Actually heavensdove I would desire to be left behind.. I believe that God always provides a chance for forgiveness and repentence.. and if no believer is left, who will provide the words of hope and comfort needed for those left behind?

namchuck

08/25/2002 11:51:13 PM

The only way you have come by your beliefs, heavensdove, is by the scripture that also contains Jesus' incontrovertible belief that he would return within the lifetime of many of those who were hearing his voice. It doesn't matter how much you ignore the many passages conveying this belief of Jesus', or put your own wishful convictions above them. They remain there as both icons of a failed prediction, and the forlorn hope of dissonant faith.

heavensdove

08/25/2002 11:02:58 PM

Well, I must say these posts have been most enlightening. Spiritbride I am with you. Jesus is the Messiah. Born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified, buried, and arose three days later and went to be at the right hand of the Father, and will return to RAPTURE His children. This debate has gone on for centuries. I know that I am content to know the truth and the time does not matter to me when. When He comes, I am ready. Be that today, tomorrow or right this second. *thinking to myself* I wonder what you all will say when you knotice all of us gone and you have been ..Left Behind?

namchuck

08/25/2002 02:19:49 AM

I think the real Jesus disappeared shortly after his death, replaced with the fully constructed Jesus of tradition.

spiritbride

08/20/2002 06:32:04 PM

Why do you think the words of Jesus have never been forgotten?.. history is full of people like Albert Schweitzer, he is not one of the first to make these types of claims as you say.. All of those people have been forgotten..Jesus has never been forgotten and never will be..

spiritbride

08/20/2002 03:15:24 PM

I am not calling you an antichrist, However, your posts are certianly contrary to the edification of others.. what about love?? are you speaking from love or anger and hate?

spiritbride

08/20/2002 03:11:48 PM

Your grasping a straws now..how do you know it wasn't the other way around.. that the early church didn't promote the immediate coming, contrary to the predictions of a latter day coming made by Jesus and others?? The point is that you don't know anymore then anyone else what is the truth about end time prophecy.. seems to me that you just want to promote your antichrist viewpoint..

namchuck

08/19/2002 11:54:53 PM

Most of the scriptures you quote, spiritbride, are later one's that represent the subtle change that came, even in Paul's view, when the realization dawned that Jesus' return was most likely not going to happen. In light of this, and rather than face the awful reality of the failure of Jesus' prediction, they projected it into the far future. As I've pointed out before, Albert Schweitzer was one of the first to point out this predictive failure of Jesus and, as Schweitzer's study revealed, there is certainly way more than just one or two verses involved in Jesus' misfiring.

spiritbride

08/19/2002 11:40:48 PM

"But suppose that the servant is wicked and says to himself,'My master is staying away a long time'.." Mt 24;48

spiritbride

08/19/2002 10:12:06 PM

BTW namchuck There are many other scriptures.. in the gospels that say things like.. "but the end will not come yet"..as well as Jesus saying that Jerusalem would be trodden down of the gentiles until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled..also Peter said that 1000 years is as a single day with the lord..but there will come scoffers saying "where is the promise of the coming?" also Pauls says that there must come a falling away first.. so you really are sounding like a fundie yourself if you choose to hold to a single verse and ignore the rest.. However, I do share your frustration at people who would rather be right than see people live together in peace..

spiritbride

08/19/2002 03:58:46 PM

The idea of a pre trib rapture is not only silly, it is a lie from hell.. Jerusalem was laid waste just 40 years after Jesus said those words.. if he is in fact the one who said them and they mean what you say.. I personally interpret the scriptures in accordance with a loving God.. I believe God is love, hence, love is God.. New York may well be Babylon, however, I personally believe that the city of Babylon will be rebuilt.. I am not a fundie.. but I am not an ostrich either..we can all hope that like the left behind series the present age will go on and on.. Then agian I would like to see a new world without bloodshed and greed..I will always believe that Jesus' predictions have not failed, but that mankind has..

namchuck

08/19/2002 04:49:29 AM

mart1963: What is your source for believing that 'New York city will be destroyed' before the supposed rapture will occur? Is it a biblical prophecy, or one of your own?

namchuck

08/19/2002 04:37:26 AM

Inerrantist, or not, spiritbride, the meaning of Jesus' words are quite straight forward in regard to his, and the early Christians, belief that he would return in the generation that was then hearing his voice. The whole silly notion of 'the rapture' is based upon a forlorn hope and a wilful ignoring of a failed prediction of Jesus'. But, you are more honest than most believers, though, in acknowledging that you feel free to interpret scripture as it suits. By the way, where was it prophesied that 'a desolate expanse in northern Afghanistan' would be 'used as a mass burial site for Taliban and Al Qaeda prisoners'? I've never come across that one in the bible.

mart1963

08/19/2002 01:34:35 AM

Here's how the end time looks from my understanding: Before the rapture occurs New York city will be destroyed- THIS IS A BIG CLUE TO WHEN THE TAKING OUT OF GOD'S PEOPLE WILL OCCUR. The reason for the rapture is because of the nuclear destruction that will occur due to the actions of the antichrist and sinful man in their 3 1/2 reign of terror. At the end of this reign God will set up the thousand yr rule of Christ as most of the godless are dead due to their own destruction. At the beginning of the thousand years those that were taken out are returned to earth as well as the most blessed of God's people are ressurected to rule in this kingdom. At the end of the thousand yrs all people are ressurected, God's people for the new heaven and new earth, the godless from hell to be thrown into the lake of fire with Satan's kingdom. More detailed information here: http://mart1963.tripod.com/

spiritbride

08/19/2002 12:58:40 AM

Human rights workers suspect Dasht-e-Leili, a desolate expanse in northern Afghanistan, has been used as a mass burial site for Taliban and Al Qaeda prisoners.. Tell these people about self fulfilling prophecy

spiritbride

08/19/2002 12:42:02 AM

BTW while we talk theology the B. administration has already started bombing Iraq

spiritbride

08/19/2002 12:37:42 AM

The prophecies are not so much self fulfilling as they are ignored warnings.. God did not start the wars of history, men did.. we are not powerless to wage peace, but not enough people have the heart for it.. as far as Jesus saying "But I tell you a truth, that there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God,"(Luke 9:27) does not necessarily refer to the second coming..and even if it did I am not a believer in an inerant translation of the gospels.. I personally would do anything I could to prevent violence and destruction..and I do believe God is love.. but I am not blind to the ways of men..they want war..

namchuck

08/18/2002 12:22:49 AM

(con'td) I do agree with you that the power now in our hands is capable of bringing about complete and utter destruction on this planet. And I believe that the inertia inspired of apocalypse-belief will almost guarantee that it happens. You don't have to be a prophet to grasp the menacing reality of self-fulfilling prophecy, especially brought about by those who obsequiosly surrender to the psychotic meanderings of religious fanatics of a long-ago superstitious age.

namchuck

08/18/2002 12:16:51 AM

spiritbride: Job also believed in the 'punitive theory', that is, that suffering is always the wrath of an angry God. Do you go a long with that? Every storm or natural disaster that kills, every disease that incapacitates or slays (malaria victims are 90% children), every train or plane wreck, etc, is a consequence of God's wrath? To wrend the plain words of Jesus, like, "But I tell you a truth, that there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God,"(Luke 9:27) as referring to any generation other than the one he was then speaking, is to make nonsense of it. The New Testament writings that follow the gospels show clearly that the earliest Christians, especially from the early epistles of the Apostle Paul, had the clear expectation of Jesus' imminent re-appearance.

spiritbride

08/17/2002 08:29:14 PM

3000 years ago in the book of Job 19;25-27 Job says that even though he will die, that he will yet stand at the latter days and see God with his own eyes.. Jesus was speaking of the generation of the last days.. when there shall be signs in the sun and moon.. The last days are to come soon because of an unrepentent mankinds one world order (Big Brother Babylon)which continually builds more weapons and has created a casino economy..they will not stop the war they have started.. every generation has a major war, this generation has more stockpiled weapons then there are junk cars in all the junk yards in the world.. many of these weapon have the capacity for mass destruction and are indeed abominations of desolation.. You do not need to be a prophet to read the signs of the times...

namchuck

08/17/2002 06:48:36 PM

Many times, during his short ministry, Jesus predicted his return, with his kingdom, within the lifetimes of many of those who were, then, hearing his voice (Matthew 26:59-64; Matthew 16:28; Mark 14:60-62; Luke 9:27; etc). So convinced was he of this, that Jesus told his disciples that they would hardly have carried his message to their compatriot's, little alone anybody else, before his return (Matthew 10:5-23). These, and many other scriptural verses confirm this solid conviction of Jesus'. It, obviously, didn't happen. What ignoring of the above and rendering of scriptural context could give support for the idea that it might happen soon, in a hundred years time, or ten thousand years in the future?

tmaster1

08/17/2002 12:01:44 PM

So the U.S. government has to assure the existence of Israel so that Jesus Christ can come back. The implication is that if the U.S. lets Israel fall, then Jesus can't come back. I have a headache.

spiritbride

08/16/2002 04:47:15 PM

amilius..you wrote.. the term 'resurrection' in the Aramaic and classic Greek would better be translated as 'reincarnation'. Might 'antichrist' be 'antechrist', you are very confused.....that is not true at all... what is true is that there will be many false christs and false prophets saying "peace and saftey" For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. You will look up, and all eyes will see him coming in the clouds with great glory and the holy angels, and every knee shall bow and every tounge shall confess.. It will not be Jesus are God who starts the coming wars.. it will be an unrepentent mankind.. However, Jesus will finish it..

amilius

08/14/2002 02:38:04 AM

The shift to awareness of previous incarnations would actually fulfill many of the End Time predictions. Remember that the term 'resurrection' in the Aramaic and classic Greek would better be translated as 'reincarnation'. Might 'antichrist' be 'antechrist', the soul who in various incarnations was Thoth, Melchizedek, Lao Tzu, Joseph, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, and Mohammed, among many others. For all of you nervously awaiting catastrophe, that aspect in the mind of God is available on film and videos, there you will find enough of a demonstration to satisfy a loving Creator. Why would you seek out demonstration of a Creator that does not exist except in your fears. Why would you create a reality from your fears? Appreciate the advice of Angels, "Fear not."

spiritbride

08/14/2002 12:21:31 AM

It was an asteroid impact that caused the flood of Noah.. science and the Bible meet... "how long can you tread water"?...

spiritbride

08/14/2002 12:00:53 AM

Look at the moon.. how many impact craters can you see..

violachic

08/13/2002 02:26:14 AM

I almost hope that those arguing here on this board aren't Christians. It makes me very sad to watch you talk to each other that way. But at any rate... I have to agree with diamondinruff. And again, I find it sad that there are Christians out there whose only motivation for aiding Israel- I feel compelled to state that this is a stance with which I do not agree- is so Jesus will come again and the "End Times" will begin. That seems selfish and vindictive to me, and frankly, wholly un-Christian. I'd like them to stop and truly think about WWJD. I don't take the symbolism in the book of Revelation literally, nor the way I know some would like me to, and I'm increasingly becoming convinced that when the world does end, it will have been one big self-fufilled prophesy.

morn_sun

07/12/2002 03:33:36 AM

"Anything it in to//Anything other to" I hate typing.

morn_sun

07/12/2002 03:32:28 AM

Agreed, diamondintheruff. Anything it in to me it sounds like people telling God He doesn't know how to do what He said. :-)

diamondinrufff

07/10/2002 11:04:25 AM

what comes to mind is why do people feel they have to manipulate prophesy? what God will do He will do without our help. To say that Jesus wont come back unless there is a Jewish Isreal and that's why Christians and the US support Isreal is moronic thinking. God is in control, we aren't. We need to let go and let God.

morn_sun

07/09/2002 07:18:19 PM

--- "...morn sun: I believe it would be far more accurate and honest if you just simply acknowledged that you don't know what you are talking about..." --- According to your viewpint. And I believe it would be far more accurate and honest if you simply acknowledged that science does not have all the answers or explanations according to my viewpoint. Be that as it may it seems we reached an impass within this off-topic point in the thread.

namchuck

07/08/2002 07:02:04 PM

morn sun: I believe it would be far more accurate and honest if you just simply acknowledged that you don't know what you are talking about and, consequently, are completely unable to respond to any of the questions you were challenged with. Your postings have only contributed to convincing me that believers are far more interested in their beliefs that they are interested in truth.

morn_sun

07/08/2002 06:54:01 PM

--- "...But your extended claim that this would disable science from ever establishing accurate data..." --- If you do not wish to read the posts as they are instead of misreading what they don't state...that's your option. Not responding further in such a case is my own.

namchuck

07/08/2002 06:50:39 PM

(con'td) The closing paragraph of your posting is nothing more than an appeal to ignorance. Of course, the driving force of science is that it has yet much to learn. But certain things are well and truly established, like the fact that a global flood never happened. Tell me, what aspects of the Earth's composition "doesn't actually coincide (with) what modern science hypothesizes."?

namchuck

07/08/2002 06:25:21 PM

morn sun: Nothing could have been more predictable than that, rather than respond to the questions I posed, you would take pot-shots at the supposed limitations of science's method of rational enquiry which, as I've said before, has been far more successful at achieving its goal of understanding than theistic dogma has been at achieving its goal of human happiness, etc. Your statement that certain earth processes can give the appearance of age is something that has been established by science and is well understood. But your extended claim that this would disable science from ever establishing accurate data is nonsense. Science can (and does) apply several independent and robust methods that can establish with a great deal of certainty the true age of any object or set of physical circumstances.

morn_sun

07/07/2002 04:58:09 PM

One can just as well ask why is there much about the Earth and it's composition that doesn't exactly coincide what modern scienes hypothosizes. Science is good. there's nothign wrong with sceince and using it to explore the world we live in. However, the methods used in sceintific research can not always be accurate or trusted based on the "curveball" the very nature of the Earth throws at it. Even apart from the Flood there are natural processes such as earthquakes, erosion, fire, and water and water which age matter to appear far older than it would seem. Thus, gathered data through the usual scientific means would not be possible. Also, the above mentioned has also bene proven to alter not only entire landscapes and it's "building blocks" but also the actual climates and weather patterns. Granted, science has been useful to know alot about the world in which we live. Still, there's alot that it doesn't know, nor can it explain on it's own merits.

namchuck

07/03/2002 11:43:38 PM

You are completely right, morn sun, truth "isn't made true by personal opinion" but, one can be even more strident in stating, that truth is most certainly not made true by faith or irrational belief. In fact, the most successful method of establishing what is true, at least about the physical earth, is by data and evidence. And this is where the 'Great Flood' finds itself high and dry. The data and evidence plainly shows that it never happened. Obviously, you believe in the 'Great Flood,' morn sun, but which one of the two significantly differing accounts of the flood given in the bible do you particularly favour? I wonder if you could tell me what the 25 to 30 million pairs of organisms ate when they alighted from off of the Ark? After disembarking, what did the carnivores eat?

morn_sun

07/03/2002 08:20:40 PM

---- ...morn sun! ...The 'Great Flood' story does not even hold water with the most elementary scrutiny... ---- You're free to feel that way if you wish. However, regardless of how you or I may feel...truth isn't made true by personal opinion.

namchuck

06/29/2002 11:49:55 PM

And why did God, who you believe is all-powerful and all-knowing, create finite beings that he would have known would not be counted among the "priviledged" and, therefore, he would have to condemn to an infinite punishment? Would it not have been kinder not to have created them at all? And, just in case you respond with the "God gave us free will" answer, remember that, in the end, if God knows all things before they even happen, then free will is irrelevent.

ugh21

06/29/2002 04:17:21 PM

I believe in God the Father,Creator of Heaven and earth.And in Jesus Christ His incarnate son who of his own free will took our place on the cross and died for our sins.I believe in God the Holy Spirit who comes to live in every one who is born again of God.I believe that God has chosen a certain number of human beings whom He has chosen before the foundation of the world,and calls them His own elect,a royal people,a perculiar people set aside for God's own purpose.I believe that anyone not having this privliged position,lives in a state of rebellion and will suffer the eternal torments of Hell,being seperated from God and having their full conscience and sinful nature revealed to them at the Great White Throne Judgement and casted into eternal darkness will forever be tormented by their own sins.The elect of God shall come from every trige,nation and tounge.

namchuck

06/26/2002 11:28:09 PM

human1: It may be an old accusation, but it can, as in this circumstance, still be very fitting. And your recent response to a question makes it very clear that there is nothing in scripture that is "plainly there." The bible ambiguously tells me that Judas either hung or threw himself 'headlong' to bring about his own demise but, according to your interpretation, he actually skewered himself on a sharp instrument of some kind because Moses' mother-in-law or somebody did herself in with a knitting needle. The mind boggles at what one might come up with in response to one or two (or several dozen) more difficult passages by way of obfuscating apologetics. I can now fully understand why you and TBB refuse to respond to my other questions considering the energy spent in such exegetical contortions. Adieu.

namchuck

06/26/2002 10:52:49 PM

tbutterbaugh: I wasn't trying to bait you at all, and I can't acknowledge the 'interpretation' I received because I didn't find it convincing in the least degree. Just a lot of semantic maneuvering in order to dodge an explicit contradiction. As I said, it's fascinating to witness the double-speak bibliolators will engage in to explain the infallible and 'unchanging' word of God. I, too, will acknowledge when I am wrong but, as yet, it hasn't been required of me in this dialogue. And, how can I accept something when it might very well be entirely different in meaning from what it actually is saying?

human1

06/26/2002 01:42:12 PM

namchuck...the old accusation of "if you don't see it my way....." is hardly fitting. I just needed to go thru this excercise with you in order to be able to see the vast amount of time I have wasted exchanging with someone who refuses to see what is plainly there. It is the same for me as if I spent time arguing with one who stood looking at the grass with me and insisted it was orange....It is the color of green, and for me to stand arguing against such persistant blatant and simple issues is just plain wasteful. So I bid you a final farewell my friend, happy arguing at B-net.

tbutterbaugh

06/26/2002 10:09:18 AM

namchuck: it is nice how you try to goat and bait me into giving you an explaination of the exegesis on the Genesis reference but will not work. As far as my public admission being unavoidable I was not avoiding it at all and am happy to admit (unlike you) when I am wrong as I did, and I see your response was to instead of acknowledge the correct interpretation and the uses of language in the days the Bible was written to twist it all around as well as mention several times my admittance to being wrong, how intellectual of you. I have an idea why don't you give me a good reason why I should answer your inquiry, even if its because you need to berate someone because we both know it doesn't matter what we say you have it ingrained not to accept it , at least be honest about it.

namchuck

06/26/2002 12:58:21 AM

tbutterbaugh: One thing that certainly has resulted as a consequence of our little dialogue is that, you have improved on your vocabulary considerably. I really think your reluctance to give a little exegesis on the Genesis references is that you were hoping human1 would relieve you of the burden, seeing that she would probably have to put you straight on your interpretation anyway. And I think your public admission was unavoidable, though human1's answer was no more convincing because of its sophistry. But I am glad that I've assisted you in my own small way.

namchuck

06/26/2002 12:48:47 AM

You really mean, human1, if I don't see it your way (which keeps changing all-so subtly from time to time)then I'm not seeing it right. This particular claim of Jesus, that the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds, is utterly consistent with the scientific understanding of the his day, and is the explanation for his mistake that requires the least ammount of semantic gymnastry. The fish fossils on the peaks of the Himalayan mountains is something that the science of geology understands very well. The Himalayan mountain range is the result of the convergence, collision, and suturing of India to Asia over millions of years, an event which thrust up the seafloor lying between them. If you want to pursue the inane hypotheses of the creationists that the Himalayas are a result of the supposed 'Great Flood,'I will identify some insurmountable problems for you.

tbutterbaugh

06/25/2002 07:46:16 PM

Namchuck: I am not going to even explain Genesis 1:20-27 vs 2:7-10 to you. You're not worth the time and effort especially given the asinine statements you made when I explained the difference between Matt. and Acts to you. Yes I recanted what I said initially because human1 made me realize maybe I didn't have the grasp I thought I did, and I didn't in which case I admitted it (unlike you would do) and corrected myself publically w/ the correct interpretation of the scriptures. But I do have to thank you because the more you make me go and research topics the more I actually find that your credibility is fast losing ground no matter how hard you try to fight it and attempt to recant what I say. Human1 the best thing we can do is to go on w/ our conversation and not even acknowledge what namchuck says given his lack of acceptance to anything we say no matter how plain it is as he did w/ my correction of the scripture.

human1

06/25/2002 10:31:47 AM

namchuck, The truth remains that Jesus was speaking to the range of familiarity in agriculture for that particular geographical region. He is talking to farmers who use the seeds He has chosen for the analogy. If you can't see that...or admit that..you are choosing foolishness! And by the way...the REAL concept being taught was a type of prophecy....which has already come to pass and continues! We shall see if the prophecy you last posted comes to pass....I'm doubtful to say the least. Regarding the lovely strata information(science's breeding ground for circular reasoning)....why is it scientists have found fish fossils at the peaks of the Himalayians if there was no flood. You can claim all you want about earth and rocks creeping upward over periods of millions of years...but that is scientific faith at its strongest...and most desperate!

namchuck

06/25/2002 04:02:41 AM

In reference to one of your earlier postings, human1, in which you stated that "...science...chases after that which God has done...", is curious considering that, in fact, what science is discovering is that God is epistemically unnecessary. The only place left for a supposed God to operate in are those rapidly diminishing areas where science doesn't yet have a comprehensive explanation for a particular phenomenon. Once these areas are mastered, creationists will have to look for more intractable problems to warrant the existence of there God.

namchuck

06/25/2002 03:38:36 AM

human1: My bible reads:"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof." (Matthew 13:31-32) The mustard seed is just not the smallest of all seeds.

namchuck

06/25/2002 03:23:49 AM

Enough tricks already, morn sun! The 'Great Flood' story does not even hold water with the most elementary scrutiny. The entire earth was not traumatized during the Flood simply because it didn't happen. In fact, stratagraphically speaking, one finds invariant order in the fossil remains, something which would be utterly impossible as a result of all creatures being churned together in a global flood. Noah's flood story is, in fact, just one variation on the Sea Creation Story, except that it's a myth of re-creation. There are many versions that predate the biblical story by at least a thousand years. Literary comparison with these older versions makes their influence on the Noachian story obvious. Along with the account of the biblical creation, Noah's flood is an example of the absurdity of attempting to turn a myth into a science.

human1

06/25/2002 02:49:03 AM

okay okay...I'm not sure how to spell bifocals..let's go back and make that specs just in case. And I don't want to hear a word about it either. H1

human1

06/25/2002 02:45:39 AM

nam: can't wait to hear now, can't you?! If it is from me you are waiting for more from....it may be a while, seeing as how you continue to refuse to conclude the "mustard seed " conversation. Did you misplace your Bible? Loose your bifocals? Are you still looking up the definitions for "your" and "you"?

morn_sun

06/25/2002 01:53:23 AM

Er....-six-...not seventh. God rested on the seventh day. :-)

morn_sun

06/25/2002 01:51:42 AM

(cont'd) To someone who doesn't believe the seven day Biblical Creation would probably sound just as fanciful as Jesus Christ's death and resurrection to earn our complete forgiveness of sins. However belief, or lack thereof, wouldn't make something any less true.

morn_sun

06/25/2002 01:49:42 AM

"namechuck", the Bible indicates God does work within the natural laws He designed for us at times. Yet He is not bound by them. As with the aging process, one would have to consider the example of the global flood that occured in Genesis. How well can age be deciphered from land that was as tramuatized as the entire Earth being underwater? The earthquakes, erosion, and general upheavel messed up everything from the weather patterns to the entire surface and beneath. Science itself indicates that such a process would age the "findings" much, much quickly than it would have otherwise. However, if one does not believe in the litereal reading of the Bible (save for where the passages themselves would indicate otherwise) all this would be rather moot.

namchuck

06/25/2002 01:13:04 AM

I thought it was illuminating, tbutterbaugh, that just after your little exegesis of scripture designed to enlighten me, and exclaiming delightedly "This is fun...," you had to recant on practically all of it as a result of human1's superior semantic sophistry. It's a strange and wonderful old world, isn't it?

namchuck

06/25/2002 12:57:39 AM

One thing about fundamentalism which has always puzzled me is that out one side of their mouths they will tell us that scripture is the infallible, unchangeable word of the living God. But out of the other side they consider themselves free to interpret and change the meaning of any passage that causes embarrassment or conflicts with their a priori dogmatic position. Tbutterbaugh: I really loved your little exercise in mathematics and semantics relative to the contradictory creation myths about Adam and Eve. Tell me, was Adam created after the animals, as in Genesis 1:20-27, or before the animals as Genesis 2:7-20? Every biblical scholar knows that these creation accounts, like many other double (or even triple) stories in the bible, were cobbled together from many sources, but I can't wait to see what you, or human1, will do with them.

namchuck

06/25/2002 12:31:04 AM

Okay, so when scripture says that Judas hung himself, it really doesn't have to mean that he hung himself. When it says he threw himself 'headlong' and his innards burst out, it doesn't necessarily mean that he really threw himself headlong and his innards burst out. When it goes on to say that Judas threw the money down in the temple but, later, purchased a field with it, it probably really means he went back to the temple and split the money fifty-fifty with the priests and then, perhaps, entered into somekind of bizarre property deal with them to purchase a field so that when he eventually got around to committing hari-kari (probably with the ear-whacker that Peter had purchased earlier), the priests had somewhere appropriate to get rid of the body. Okay, I'm starting to get the hang of this interpreting stuff. your right, tbutterbaugh, it is fun.

human1

06/24/2002 01:34:01 PM

tbutterbaugh...great research, you found the truth there...culturally, as in the times of the writing of Esther...hanging was the way a public displayal of a body was made rather than the method of death itself. Impalement was the cause of the death of Judas...as you have described. Hanging was the emotional description of what he did..and was the term common to the ear of those in that day, when making the public display of that knowledge. This is verifiable by the trends of writings from that day and forward and coupled with known history.

tbutterbaugh

06/24/2002 01:22:55 PM

Which I myself was one of those who misinterpreted Matthew and now have human 1 to thank for showing me the error of my ways. So thank you, and it makes a lot more sense now. Hopefully it will to namchuck too.

tbutterbaugh

06/24/2002 01:19:23 PM

Following the ascension of Jesus Christ Judas was overwhelmed with internal turmoil and he killed himself by going to his own property and throwing himself upon a sword or sharp stake. This was a common method of suicide.He did not "hang himself" as some have gathered from the misunderstood record in Matthew.

tbutterbaugh

06/24/2002 01:19:11 PM

Acts 1:16-18... Judas was numbered with the apostles and had obtained part of this ministry. He was expected to be present on the day of Pentecost. Judas purchased a property [chorion] not a field [agros]. The chief priests had purchased the field in Matthew using the thirty pieces of silver they had taken from the temple treasury to pay Judas.Judas himself purchased this property for himself with the "reward of iniquity." John 12:6b - "he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein." Judas was the treasurer for the apostles.He kept the bag of money and he also was a thief.He had been stealing from the apostles and used this money to buy his own property.This is the "reward of iniquity" the Word of God is talking about-not the thirty pieces of silver.

tbutterbaugh

06/24/2002 01:17:07 PM

The chief priests did not want to put the money paid for the betrayal of Jesus back into the temple treasury as it was "blood money." So they bought an "agros:" a field to bury strangers in. Because blood money was used to purchase the field it was called "the field [agros] of blood." This is different than the property [chorion] that Judas purchased himself referred to in Acts Chapter 1.

tbutterbaugh

06/24/2002 01:16:52 PM

Matthew 27:3-8... The Greek word translated "hanged himself" is the word apanchomai which is used in Greek literature to mean choking or squeezing one's self as with great emotion or grief. In English we have a similar expression when we say that someone is "all choked up." We do not mean that they have died. We mean that they are overcome with emotion. Judas cast down the pieces of silver in the temple and left doubling himself over with grief. Perhaps Judas had hoped that his betrayal of Jesus Christ for thirty pieces of silver would result in action to re-establish the kingdom under leadership of the Christ. When he saw that Jesus Christ was condemned to death he was overwhelmed with emotional hurt and he came and threw the thirty pieces of silver down in the temple and left doubled over with grief.

tbutterbaugh

06/24/2002 01:15:30 PM

Human 1 thank you for pointing that out. It made me go and study further the details of his death and I actually learned something because of it. as you will now see:

human1

06/24/2002 12:15:14 PM

(cont TBB)..But always keeping in mind that there is no Biblical concept taught, regarding the death of Judas, which relies upon ones individual discription of "how" Judas died...we have 2 (non professional) humans reporting their understanding of how Judas died, be it a complete and accurate portrayal or not, he none the less died...and the significance lies in the prophecies that were fulfilled, and in the events that lead to him dying....not in forensics. Arguing over their choice of discriptives is like arguing over people today differing in saying..."she hung herself" vs "she committed suicide" vs "she has passed on", etc.

human1

06/24/2002 12:13:39 PM

tbb, I respectfully cannot agree with what you offer regarding Judas death. I have chosen not to answer nc until some sign of genuine desire to understand is shown...rather than a desire to taunt with passages which are well known to raise eyebrows of skeptics, mostly due to their applying today's culture coupled w/ mockery to that of mankind nearly two thousand years ago. Yes, understandable answers are easily there...but if those asking are not sincere in desiring to understand, answering is futile. I WILL say...aside from my preferance in approaching any tauntings of controversy nc lobs up for sport...that my study of the death of Judas reveals not what you have described. Dig dipper my friend! Look at Esther for more regarding a relationship between "hanging" and "impalement" for starts.

human1

06/24/2002 11:10:55 AM

(cont)...as we agreed long ago there are many in science who carry with them a desire to "prove" there is no God, and assert the Bible is untrue. They have not succeeded though...apart from theory. Theories are simply theories. Knowing well mankind ...I will not live so naively in that regard. As stated earlier..."self correcting" is not bragging ground for science, just a necessity! The Bible is not self-correcting for their is no error found. You know American history seems to be seen as needing self correction by some...you would probably have me follow blindly the revisionists there too! They are fueled by the same motive.

human1

06/24/2002 11:10:33 AM

namchuck...you continue to avoid my point. Though the frustration has left as I know see it is humorously intentional...and of course I can understand why. Did you read the mustard seed passages in Matt and Mark? Did you see the words- you and your? Can't talk about it? I would love to move on to your other questions...though your behavior supports my theory that they were never sincere questions. Your assertions made regarding science (rather than answering what I clearly asked) are wonderful theories...don't forget, I think science is thrilling. It chases after that which God has done, and when TRUTHS are discovered revealing His creativity...it is thrilling. I will not play a fool to science and begin believing in man's theories and presuppositions,

tbutterbaugh

06/24/2002 11:06:10 AM

This is fun, point out some more contradictions, please.

tbutterbaugh

06/24/2002 11:03:00 AM

Now as you see in Matthew it was straightforward he hung himself w/ no other description. In Acts the description is more detailed as we see above where headlong is the term used for hanging himself. The part that follows where his intestines spilled out basically means he "shit" himself when he died. As what medically happens when someone passes on their bowels relax and release. I studied the passages from various versions of th Bible and the literal translation is that "burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed forth." Which is the best way they could describe in detail what had happened. Hope it helps to clarify your confusion. Definately wasn't a pretty site.

tbutterbaugh

06/24/2002 11:02:15 AM

Now regarding Matthew 27:5 and The Acts 1:18. I am assuming that what you are refering to the Bible "contradicting" itself is the to infer that the Bible is not consistent in regards to "How" Judas of Iscariot died. Matthew speaks of him hanging himself and the Acts describes it as "there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out", correct?

tbutterbaugh

06/24/2002 09:46:31 AM

Namchcuk: I have often found you to be an intelligent person and yet you SERIOUSLY cannot be basing your argument on contradictions of the Bible to this "And just how was Eve created, from the dust of the earth, or did she come from Adam's rib?" can you? It doesn't take a genius to figure out there is no contradiction here, but I will put it in simple math terms you can understand" If A = B = C Then A = C Therefore Dust = Adam = Adam's rib = Eve Then Dust = Eve Either your ignorant to this simple analysis, which I am going to give you credit your not, or your very good at slipping things in, which I will give you credit for. I would love to hear all three theories that you perport the Bible to contain so I can explain each one. Honestly I never knew of three such theories so maybe you can enlighten me.

namchuck

06/24/2002 12:08:14 AM

morn sun: I wonder where you did your checking? And you seem to have a couple of things mixed up here (light as a measurement of distance and time, and the age(s) of the earth).The speed of light, which is fixed, is one of the best attested truths of science, confirmed in experiment after experiment. And the multiple methods used to date the earth (rocks, fossils, etc) and its ages return readings spectacularly consistent with one another. 'There's also the point that because something was created...does not mean it had to be created to "look like new."' Are you suggesting that the supposed creator was being deliberately deceptive in creating a universe that only had the appearance of age? Why would he do such a thing? Perhaps to mislead thousands upon thousands of scientists? I know that the God of the bible can be variously loving, magisterial, denying, thunderously angry, amd mysterious, but are you adding tricky to the list?

namchuck

06/23/2002 11:23:05 PM

(con'td) It is well recognized that creationists would like to think that evolution is a "faith-based" enterprise, the only field, of course, in which it is capable of competing. But, if there is any faith at all in scientific endeavour, then it is a rational faith as opposed to the irrational faith of a creationist bibliolator. Though there are many aspects of science that are definitely un-faith like, the greatest difference between science and religious faith lies in its evidence-based and self-correcting aspects. Religious faith is neither evidence-based or self-correcting. Further, it is fundamentally false to say that the fossil record or that sciences' dating systems are "erroneous." Such a statement could only be made by one who has a greater dedication to belief rather than truth.

namchuck

06/23/2002 11:09:39 PM

(con'td) The speed of light, and the distance to the stars, are such established facts of science that it would be completely perverse not to accept them, and I would lay odds that every creationist would do so if these facts didn't conflict with their enthraldom to a literalist view of the bible. You say that "not every scientist would agree." I dare say that there will be some scientist out there with some a priori religious commitment to a young-earth who would disagree. But can you name one whose peer-reviewed counter-hypotheses has made it into any of the recognized scientific journals?

namchuck

06/23/2002 10:50:07 PM

No, human1, I detected more frustration than anger in your latest postings. I would suspect, too, though you would certainly deny it, that the frustration would be inspired by your own difficulties at rationalizing the answers to my questions than any supposed spiritual blindness on my part. I could have drawn the same conclusion relative to your questions about evolution, but I've tried my best to respond to your enquiries without having to resort to semantic tricks.

abarenboshogunvi

06/23/2002 10:41:44 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen, Your experiments with evolution must now give way for more about the Rapture. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,265345,00.html According to the article, many evangelical Protestant ministers are now assigning the "Left Behind" series to their congregations as devotional literature. There's also some discussion about a growing eagerness and yearning among these congregations for the Rapture to come and with it, an end to the sinful and evil physical world. Like I said before. Evangelical Protestantism, for whatever reasons, is sliding into psychosis.

human1

06/23/2002 11:43:24 AM

If I sound angry in my post...please forgive me. I don't mean to be rude, I do feel a level of frustration over the tediousness of for example having to go back and point to individual words in scripture, etc. And arguing semantics there rather than what Jesus was actually even teaching! He was teaching regarding the Kingdom of heaven...and how it will grow! His point was never botany nor biology. Please forgive me if I became offensive, I am sure you have felt this way toward us, who question easy concepts of science.

human1

06/23/2002 11:34:16 AM

(cont).. I cannot think of a bigger scientific assertion of faith. Scientists believe they are accurately dating the fossil record and strata from which they come.....because they NEED to believe they correct in order for it to fit their pre-determined assertions of faith. The fossil record has been shown to be eroneous as well as it's methods of dating it have. But you, however find these assertions of man..amidst much revelation of error all along...far easier to believe, than what is written in scripture (even easy scripture) right before your eyes.

human1

06/23/2002 11:33:28 AM

Yes, I chose the mustard seed question first, and for these very reasons. I knew it would be a fast and easy answer...because it is SO clear. If you however refuse to admit what is there on a topic so simple and clear...why would I want to go further with you into some that require more study and observation? The statements regarding science that you continue making....offer us huge evidence of more of you assertions of FAITH. By faith you say ask questions regarding your "fact" that "light left its source 30,000 yrs ago". That cannot be proven. Nor do all scientist agree. You however choose to believe what has been asserted by some and call it conclusive...and that is your option, but it is still your faith. As for the fossil record....don't get me started.

human1

06/23/2002 11:22:42 AM

(cont)..specific wording there. In Matt, "though it is the smallest of all YOUR seeds.." (pause and stare for a moment at the word YOUR) Also, then in Mark,"...which is the smallest seed YOU plant in the ground."...again note the word YOU. It could not be more clear that He is speaking in terms of things that are a physical part of His listeners life....and if you cannot simply see, and admit you see, that is the truth....why would I want to go on with other Biblical topics?

human1

06/23/2002 11:21:52 AM

nc, initially I would be happy to answer any of your questions re: the Bible. You just, however, posted further evidence of why it would be futile....Your response to the truth offered to you in--Jesus and the mustard seed--is a perfect example. You continue to see it erroneously, leaving the impression you indeed do NOT have eyes to see, nor ears to hear.(which I believe is your option) Why,,then, would I want to waste further time on answers you will discard with erroneous thinking due to your own chosen faith bias? Read the scriptures carefully...Jesus used

morn_sun

06/23/2002 02:46:50 AM

I'd like to know how such a number such as "30,000" was come up. Last I checked...not even science can agree on the actual ages. There's also the point that because something was created...does not mean it had to be created to "look like new". 'Sides, the most important issue is not how old the Earth or the Universe is or when it will end , it's how it came to be. Biblically, we are told God created a perfect universe, it fell under the curse of sin when Man rebelled, and God offered full pardon from that rebellion by grace, through faith, in Christ. Regarding the article and the Rapture...I think all the doctrine does is steer most everyone clear from the main message of the Gospel. There is no second chance for anyone. "Now is the day of salvation." Besides, anyone think it odd that even though God has His own time-table for His return there are those who think theirs would be better?

namchuck

06/22/2002 10:12:18 PM

(con'td) And, if you would be so kind, and assuming you believe the earth and universe to have been divinely created no more than 10,000 years ago, how is it that, say, when we look at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy, we see light that left its source 30,000 years ago?

namchuck

06/22/2002 10:00:52 PM

(con'td) Jesus' selection of the mustard seed for metaphorical use is understandable, but he still conveyed misleading information, especially if he knew better(commensurate with the scientific understanding of the day, he probably didn't). This is something rather hard to reconcile with the claim that he is a teacher of truth. And I'm not reading anything into it at all. Jesus said that the mustard seed was the smallest of all seeds capable of growing into the largest plant. Was it necessary, assuming that Jesus knew better, to keep the people in ignorance just to enable him to teach some kind of higher spiritual message? Perhaps, human1, you considered the mustard seed question the easiest of the questions I posed? I would certainly like to hear which of the creation myths in Genesis you favour, and how one can reconcile Matthew 27:5-8 with Acts 1:18.

namchuck

06/22/2002 09:44:42 PM

human1; The probability factor in science, especially in cases like the origin of sex, pertain only to estimates of time, not occurrence. For instance, if you look at the distribution of the main animal groups, exactitude in time is a peripheral issue. Take the vertebrates for an example. Fish first appear in the fossil record before amphibians, amphibians appear before reptiles, reptiles appear before mammals, with a clear sequence of progressively more mammal-reptiles, in the right order, in between; the first mammals appear before before the smaller sub-groups of mammals; humans only appearing about a million years ago. This sequence is exactly what the theory of evolution predicts. Not faith, human1, but evidence and data.

human1

06/22/2002 11:28:17 AM

(cont)..Jesus was teaching a crowd, using parable or analogy and drawing upon things within a range common to His listeners. If you read carefully He chose a seed familiar to them and which was one of the particular products they grew. Within, the range of familiarity to His crowd it was an appropriate choice...you, however, are reading into it a claim that He meant it was the smallest in the entire world,etc! I could go on with the others...but I think you get my point, and I've wasted time elsewhere providing answers which you discard without a thought due to your faith bias. Again, if you genuinely want to learn...I'll be happy to discuss anything Biblical... but if you wish to tear down rather truly consider what is there, we would both agree that would be an excercise in futility.

human1

06/22/2002 11:27:58 AM

Thanks namchuck...I thought the answer would rely upon assertions of "knowledge" of things that "probably" happened billions of years ago. And upon hearing assertions of scientific faith established in the very onset of an answer...I find I would not be interested in the further reading of the suggestions you give. I can see already that would simply be another excercise in comparing faiths. Regarding my comment of context on your Biblical questions...no, I was not thinking of anything you wrote...but rather an awareness from experience in posts with you, leads to the obvious answers you have in mind in order to make those verses suspect. IE, the mustard seed...you raised it into suspicion, because you are obviously going to state that there are seeds smaller than mustard seed, and that it does not produce the largest tree!

namchuck

06/22/2002 03:31:56 AM

(con'td) All humans, in fact, most species, contain the genes for being either male or female. The difference lies in what genes are turned on. We all have genes for making either of the sex organs or for making uteruses, regardless of our sex (why would God, in his omnipotence, design it this way when it can, and sometimes does, all go terribly wrong?). As far as the culturally conditioned roles of 'male' and 'female' are concerned, that is altogether a different story. Obviously, all of the above is vastly inadequate for the reasons previously given but, unless you are somekind of modern day Cremonini, you could do yourself a great favour by searching out such fantastic reads as Lynn Margulis and Dorian Sagan's, 'What Is Life'.

namchuck

06/22/2002 03:13:32 AM

That's strange, human1, but I didn't give those scriptural inferences any context. They really do speak for themselves. For instance, how is it scripture wrenching to, say, quote Matthew 27:5-8 and Acts 1:18 where no altering of context is necessary for the perception of an obvious contradiction? If you really must insist on some kind of response to your "gender" question, then I will oblige as best I can within the limitations of this forum. The origin of sex ('gender' is a grammatical technical term, applied to words, not creatures) arose about a billion years ago when some organisms began to reproduce sexually - early single-celled organisms reproduced asexually - probably as a mechanism of genetic exchange to replace defective genes. It proved to be an accelerator of evolution. Now, in addition to mutation, recombination also provided genetic and phenotypic variation speeding up, as I said, the evolutionary pace.

human1

06/22/2002 02:33:33 AM

namchuck, Thanks for the updated info on your perspective on humor...it is always interesting. I do not hang much on the years ago Johnny C and his guest, but found it a splendid example of shear arrogance and enjoyed hearing the later backing down from the arrogant false assertion by this non-self-correcting scientist. I only mention it twice, because you skipped over it the first time...I find it worth just as much as the falsely asserted "truth" it contained! As for the numerous and mostly out of context examples of questions you put forth...if you don't find space here to answer the gender question, why would you then consider raising 8 questions in one post? It sounds as though you are completely satisfied with what you view to be the answers to each. If you have a genuine desire to understand...please forgive my assumption and truly ask once more.(although first answering the question posed to you would be polite...and I realize a shock on B-net...politeness that is!)

namchuck

06/22/2002 01:30:09 AM

(con'td) Of course, I believe your view of the bible to be insupportable. Most objects in the universe are more than 10,000 years away from the earth and yet, if the Bible is correct, they cannot be so. Does modern biology agree with biblical biology that bats are birds, that some fowls have four feet, and camels do not have cloven hooves? Is a mustard seed the smallest of all seeds and grows to become the greatest of all plants? Despite the fact that it has no linguistic, historical or anatomical basis, did human language truly appear suddenly? And just how was Eve created, from the dust of the earth, or did she come from Adam's rib? Can it really be maintained that the Bible is not in need of correction?

namchuck

06/22/2002 01:02:29 AM

The only humour that I find tedious, human1, is consistent with a joke told once too often. You appear to hang a lot on the appearance of some paleontologist on the Johnny Carson show, and, incidentally, a 3 inch sq bone chip can indicate a great deal. Take forensic science for instance. A person can murder someone (with no witnesses), and scientists can reconstruct the scene with such accuracy as to pinpoint the guilty person - and with such accuracy as to cause the person, at least in your country, to receive the death penalty. Evolution is much the same, reconstructing the past through examination of the evidence, of which there is a rich abundance. Yes, science is not perfect (but getting better all the time), and has been far more successful at achieving its goal of understanding than theistic dogma has been at achieving its goal of human happiness or righteousness, or however else one may want to characterize it.

namchuck

06/22/2002 12:05:57 AM

Further, tbutterbaugh, when I go along to a magic show I know that I am being duped, but I go along with it for amusements sake. I certainly have no wish to conduct my intellectual life on the same basis, something that I would have to do if I was to accept a capricious universe tricked out with ad hoc magic such as you believe in. There are people for whom knowledge is far more compelling than mere belief. However, I understand that not all people are so constituted.

namchuck

06/21/2002 11:58:12 PM

tbutterbaugh: You do have the propensity to make some fairly incongruous statements. That "fear", rather than "reason", is the inspiration behind evolutionary theory is completely asinine considering that Darwin was a Christian (becoming agnostic well after developing his theory), as was Alfred Russel Wallace, and not a few of the leading lights in modern evolutionary biology. This grasping at idiotic straws in an attempt to make patently ridiculous and insupportable notions - a young-earth and a literally interpreted bible - appear more reasonable by comparison only brings your religion into disrepute. In fact, just about everything you say in your latest postings could be more successfully used against the Jekyll-and-Hyde history of Christianity, where fear and "lashing out" at new and innovative ideas, especially if they challenge established dogma, would more than likely lead one to certain torture and death.

human1

06/21/2002 09:46:18 PM

I do hear what you are saying...and of course science has had to be self correcting. It is based upon theories of man, of which multitudes have consistantly been wrong. The choice then is to correct...or become laughing stock. Is that so honorable? I hardly think so, but simply an obvious necessity. Praising that aspect of science would be like praising a human for inhaling oxygen. I cannot see it as a "cut" either....all aspects of humanity are called into humbleness due to human limits. As far as I'm concerned...many religions need to examine their true origins and ways, and take on some self-correcting. The truth, of the Bible, however has never needed correction. (and I'm not talking about false interpretations or incorrect viewpoints which man seems consistantly take from it.) God's word is the one consistant unchanging truth.

human1

06/21/2002 09:36:32 PM

Okay..you made me laugh...but a word of caution w/ that sense of humor there...you might be open game to the accusation of "acting like a child"! Regarding the rest of your post...I appreciate what you offer. I don't see anything conclusive, nor did I see the paleantologist on Johnny Carson with his plaster skull of the "missing link" admitting the absurdity of taking his 3 inch sq bone chip from the back of a skull and completing for himself a full skull with the nice protruding forehead. When the non-scientist host raised the notion of questioning the validity...our scientist looked rather insulted rather than self correcting.

namchuck

06/21/2002 09:22:30 PM

Actually, human1, I may have to recant on my claim that I don't have in my 'possession' a missing link. You oughta see my uncle. A simian throwback if ever I saw one! It's truly paradoxical for creationists to simultaneously draw on the authority of science at the same time as attacking its basic workings. Every hoax, and every one of science's honest blunders or mistakes has been uncovered by science. That's how science progresses. The self-correcting feature of the scientific method is one of its most beautiful features. What religion has ever stood up and said, "Hey, we got that wrong." Anyway, there is a marvelous consistency to the evidence that humans have evolved, not just from the fossil record ( getting stronger every year), but also from comparative anatomy, DNA sequence comparisons,etc. There really is no alternative explanation consistent with this interlocking set of facts from so many different sources.

tbutterbaugh

06/21/2002 11:21:00 AM

It seems to me that what caused the theory of evolution was not rational thought but man's fear that there is something out there he can't explain. History has shown that humans often lash out in terrible ways towards things they can't explain ever feverishly trying to look for the puppet strings or how the magic trick was performed, what's the secret says man, there is a reasonable explanation to EVERYTHING, I can't accept the fact that I can't explain it.

tbutterbaugh

06/21/2002 11:20:16 AM

Why is it so hard for you to except the minute fact that life was created and not evolved by random chance, is it because of what you believe to be the lack of a security blanket you call science? (which I believe is there but you won't accept it no matter what proof it shows) As far as an ego booster goes, who is looking for more of a boost, the person who accepts God and His miracle of creation and accepts things as they are w/ or w/o proof or the person who is not satisfied until they believe they know exactly how everything works and how it happens? It is the evolutionist or even typical inate personality of humans in general who asks how was I made, but will not accept the fact that a loving creator made us, too simple for the "complex" human.

tbutterbaugh

06/21/2002 11:11:44 AM

Namchuck: "Was it the bit about your preference for a comforting and ego-inflating idea as opposed to what might be, for you, the unacceptable truth that you may not be the center of the universe?" This is where you have it bass aackwards. If I am reading you correctly your insinuating that a person who believes in creationism is 1) doing it because they have an ego issue and 2) they put themselves at the center of the universe? First off it is someone who believes in evolution that puts themself at the center of the universe or even more so some one who also doesn't believe in God. I would dare you to find someone who believes in God and creationism and states they or man is at the center of the universe, they can't because then they would put themselves above God, which is unlikely if you think about it. Second I am very secure in my ego and myself w/o needing the idea of creationism to boost it.

human1

06/21/2002 11:06:55 AM

As for the gender question...I DO feel you have room here to at least start the general idea.

human1

06/21/2002 11:06:13 AM

up one bone from an ape and one bone from another species(hippo as I recall) discovered 10 miles apart on a river bed and "rebuilt" to suit a desire. I also would not be impressed to again hear of the great skull of the supposed "ape-man" which resulted from a find of a piece of skull from the back of a head approximately 3 inches square, which was then fashioned together in a "rendoring" of what paleantologists felt the ape man would have obviously "looked like". (This was offered to us even via a guest visit years back on Johnny Carson when the great "news" broke...even his expression changed when he asked "why the protruding brow bone?" and was told that was obviously what he would have looked like! Even my Carl Sagan loving Dad was rolling on the floor with laughter.

human1

06/21/2002 11:05:53 AM

namchuck...sorry if you feel I was sarcastic, you and I have a very hard time over our distinct ways of relating(especially via posts). I never feel I could have known you to be avoiding answering!...more likely distracted as we all seem to offer many ideas in our posts. But yes, you did(most likely in error)state long ago that you held one of the missing links yourself. I knew you to be more intelligent than that so I chose to tease you over your claim....you did not respond, so I teased once more as the issue was brought up here. All the while believing(and hoping)you did not originally mean to state ownership of a missing link. I would love to hear evidence of one...and by that I mean living evidence, because it should be here somewhere wandering around as man and ape and monkey still are. I also am not inerested in the fake and concocted discoveries of paleantology...such as their lovely offering of skeletal remains which in one example turned

human1

06/21/2002 10:46:11 AM

Nosson....what Bible are you pouring yourself over? Respectfully, the explanation to the connection between Christians and Jews is found plainly written in Romans and specifically in around Chapters 9-13. Of course this may not apply if you have been reading in a man-concocted and truth-twisting Bible that was rewritten in an effort to tickle the desires of some man who wondered off from God's word in rebellion. Christians do not believe they are the "new Jews"...some Jews became Christ followers(Christians),and others stayed with their Jewish faith and are Jews.

nosson

06/21/2002 12:11:10 AM

Part Two. Thirdly, christians in Hebrew are called NOTZRIM. In fact, the term Notzrim is found in the bible in connection with the eventual mesianic times. Although Jewish scholors have never connected this with the christians, I do believe that it is very likely refering to the christians. And what does the bible say about the NOTZRIM? It says that they will suport the Jews and Judaism. We already see the begining of this in our days, but soon we will realize the fullness of the prophecy that counter to christian belief the Jews will realize (or be condemed by) Jesus, the opposite will happen as prophesised that the christians will support Judaism and the Jews. I thus end with Gods love to all.

nosson

06/21/2002 12:10:21 AM

Since my post is too long I will split it in two. My simple question is as follows. Everybody knows the original christian teaching that lasted for many centuries is that the christians were the new jews and that the old jews were nixed. Now adays (and in no small part do to the Jews regaining Israel) most christians seem to believe that the same old jews are the jews, that they are the chosen people for all time. (Thus as the author wrote: if you bless the same old Jews you will be blessed etc.) Thus, Doesn't this change uproot the foundation of christianity? Secondly, If the Jews are still the chosen but they still (and always will) reject Jesus, what connection then do they have to what you believe will be Jesus's second comming?

namchuck

06/20/2002 10:32:09 PM

tbutterbaugh: I wasn't, at least not in the context of my last message to you, suggesting that you should be embarrassed about the position you hold but, rather, of being party to perpetuating what any reasonably educated person would know was false information. Is that part of your repertoire as well? Giving you the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't deliberate, your attempt to rationalize your overt blunder by claiming that it "doesn't matter and is irrelevent" would only indicate a woeful level of knowledge. And, what part of your statement on "the whole" do you think was worthy or demanded a response? Was it the bit about your preference for a comforting and ego-inflating idea as opposed to what might be, for you, the unacceptable truth that you may not be the center of the universe?

namchuck

06/20/2002 10:11:01 PM

Now, human1, that is not quite true. I have posed several questions in past messages to which you have failed to respond. Did I really say that I had in my personal possession a 'missing link'? We know how your attempts at sarcasm have turned around and bitten you before. What I probably alluded to in an earlier post was that, I could give you an example or two of several missing links that have been found. And, sorry, but I cannot recall you posing the 'gender question' before. I certainly am not trying to dodge it as it is no great mystery. But evolution is a complex set of ideas that are not amenable to simple explanation, especially on a message board such as this. If you want me to go into it in some detail, my e-mail address is available within my particulars.

tbutterbaugh

06/20/2002 01:38:15 PM

namchuck: I don't understand why I should be embarrassed by the position I hold and do not see them as blunders. I wonder how hard people held onto the notion the world was flat or that the earth was the center of the universe before the evidence became overwhelming, of course I am sure the same could be said by you about Creationism. So we didn't come from "apes" as you say but a common ancestor. Doesn't matter and is irrelevent, becuase you only focused on that specific portion of the comment, and not on the statement in whole that I would rather know I was created by a loving creator as is and not think I came from some primordial ooze by chanceb as evolutionists portend.

human1

06/20/2002 10:18:03 AM

Interesting namchuck, how when you ask questions about our faith, we at least attempt to answer them. I have posed the gender question to you before, and now...still no answer. When asking you long ago about the lack of any of the "missing links" in evolution....you eluded to the fact that you had one! I remember teasing you about that in hopes of your revealing more about it and perhaps making you the most famous man on earth....THE man, who himselfs, holds one of the very missing links on his property.

namchuck

06/19/2002 11:37:21 PM

The 'least' is a typo.

namchuck

06/19/2002 11:36:31 PM

human1: As your acquaintence with fundamental evolutionary knowledge is no better than tbutterbaughs', I can understand why the answers to the questions you pose still elude you. Might I suggest that both you and tbutterbaugh, in order to further avoid what should be embarrassing blunders, take some time out to familiarize yourselves with, at a minimum least, basic evolutionary knowledge.

namchuck

06/19/2002 11:23:32 PM

Evolution, like cosmology and geology, is partly an historical science. Some of its observations concern events that happened in the past, and some of its methods deal with how best to reconstruct such past events. This does not mean that hypotheses about historical events are untestable. The Big Bang, for example, if it really happened, one would expect to find background thermal radiation permeating the universe, which is exactly what astronomers found. This certainly doesn't prove the Big Bang, but its an impressive piece of corroborative evidence. One could give literally dozens of instances of this kind of thing.

namchuck

06/19/2002 11:17:01 PM

tbutterbaugh: I do wish you wouldn't insist on manifesting your complete unaquaintence of even basic evolutionary knowledge so publicly. No evolutionist, certainly not Darwin, has ever said that we humans descended from the apes! This is, more often than not, a deliberate misrepresentation by creationists which identifies their lack of honesty, not to mention a vacuum of credibility. What evolutionary science has demonstrably shown is that, we, the apes, and the chimps have descended from a common ancestor. And science, tbutterbaugh, is not limited to phenomena that are repeatable today in a laboratory. It is much more interesting and complex than that.

human1

06/19/2002 11:11:58 PM

You are right TBB. If there are still apes and also man...then there should be living examples of all that came in between. I would also love to know why the sexes, male and female, evolved....and why not in all species? Also, why just the two sexes? Why not three or more? I'm sure the obvious questions have been given some interesting answers. I would love to hear these out.

tbutterbaugh

06/19/2002 11:54:05 AM

No matter how detailed, in depth or how much scrutiny is put into thier methods or research. Besides that I just like the idea that I was created as a man and being so unconditionally loved by God vs something that developed by chance from primordial sludge. Or to look at an ape or monkey or chimp or whatever and think that I am related to it. I also never understood that if we evolved from apes then why are there still apes in existence?

tbutterbaugh

06/19/2002 11:47:03 AM

Then I guess I would have to say your talking about me when you say "When it comes down to it, the only believers who need to stand in fear of evolution are those who pertinaciously hold to a literal reading of the bible.", but I would have to also say that I do not fear evolution either, Sorry, but I can't change what I have come to know even if man hasn't provided the scientific evidence to necessarily back it up. That is why they call it Faith. For me there is a difference between studies on say gravity that can be tested in the here and now vs say life on Earth millions of years ago that scientists claim knowledge to. Just doesn't feel right to me that people can claim FACT to something never experienced. When someone tells me in detail what happened prior to man's existence on the Earth as described by scientists who buy into evolution, logically and rationally I cannot get past the fact that what they describe is nothing more than speculation or assumptions.

namchuck

06/19/2002 12:09:51 AM

(con'td) Scientific creationism should in fact be re-named theological objectionism, or non-scientific anti-evolutionism. When it comes down to it, the only believers who need to stand in fear of evolution are those who pertinaciously hold to a literal reading of the bible. There are many Christian organizations - the Catholics, the Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc - who do not perceive evolution as a problem ( though I wouldn't necessarily agree with them).

namchuck

06/18/2002 11:48:03 PM

I am actually, tbutterbaugh, quite familiar with 'creation-science' (a non sequitur if ever there was one). You shouldn't forget that I was once a believer and, by unquestioned assumption, a creationist as well. Once I had gotten myself something of an education learning, in the process, how to properly evaluate evidence, I began to realize what a pathetic hodge-podge of pious pseudo-science creation-science really was (and is). There hasn't actually been one hypotheses proffered by a creation scientist that has survived close scrutiny and evaluation. The latest attempt by scientists such as Michael Behe (an 'old-earth' creationist) with his 'irreducibly complexity', have been definitively proven wrong.

tbutterbaugh

06/18/2002 03:52:06 PM

I dont know that I would put it in respects of "hiding behind the veil of evolution", what if it was more that evolution was the 'How' to the 'What', 'Where' and 'When'? I will stand firm on the creation idea over evolution, but I do think that there are some studies in evoltion that explain 'How' just not necessarily the 'How' that is given by evolution. I still think there are as legitimate scientific evidence and research done by SCIENTISTS who believe in the idea of creation as there are by SCIENTISTS who believe in the idea of evolution. I wish you would actually give them a chance and see what they have to say.

namchuck

06/17/2002 12:40:08 AM

Thanks for your sincere advice, tbutterbaugh, I really appreciate it. Unfortunately, your counsel only rephrases the essential dilemma in other words. There may be, for all I know, some incomprehensible intelligence behind the universe. This intelligence may even be hiding behind the veil of evolution. If this be the case, perhaps the awed wonder with which I respond to the universe is the best form of worship a person like me can offer. Shalom

tbutterbaugh

06/16/2002 09:33:58 PM

Namchuck: as much as I would to deny and refute this comment of yours "But, of course, they all generously, just like you, recommend their own chauvinistic and culturally conditioned concept of the divine" I can't and can honestly understand were you are coming from. Believe it or not I was exactly where you are now. EXACTLY! One reason I turned from God in the first place was because of all the differing opionions around me like your friends. So after many years I decided that if I wanted to really know God and what believing in Him meant I decided to do what I should have done along time ago and what I suggest for you to do, GO TO THE SOURCE. There is no evidence I can present that in some way you will not refute, so if you want the answer that is the only way to get it.

human1

06/15/2002 11:16:01 PM

namchuck, you are right. I am truly sorry for my light heartedness here. Though I was trying for comic relief, if you will, your post showed me the truth that it could easily be seen differently. I appreciate you calling me into account. I want to be considerate of what you and others choose to believe, and am thankful you pointed out my error. I actually feel "spent" here as I reflect all that has gone on in recent days' posts. I need to sign out now...my best to you and all others.

namchuck

06/15/2002 09:07:37 PM

human1: There is a scripture that I would bet that you are familiar with but, apparently, have some trouble applying practically into your life: 'When I was a child, I spake as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man (or grew up), I put away childish things.'

human1

06/15/2002 08:12:54 PM

NY

namchuck

06/15/2002 07:36:09 PM

tbutterbaugh: It is not so much that I "want to believe" as, if there is any positive evidence for God, I would positively like to see it. Another difficulty is that, numbered among my friends, there is a fair representation of different beliefs and ideas about God. But, of course, they all generously, just like you, recommend their own chauvinistic and culturally conditioned concept of the divine. So, I'm faced with the interesting dilemma that, aside from them not being able to provide any positive goods or reasons why I should elect to believe in their particular notion of God, they are each atheistic in regard to each others God. It seems to me of greater worth to stick with rational enquiry, which has been far more successful at achieving its goal of understanding than theistic dogma has been at achieving its goal of human happiness or fulfilment or righteousness (or however else one may wish to characterize it).

tbutterbaugh

06/15/2002 02:45:04 PM

PS To namchuck, you want to find evidence to believe in God, correct? If you want ot believe then why not believe. It makes you no less an intellegent man to do so even if your mind tells you this, try and ask and see what your heart tells you. But if evidence is what you need then I will do what I can to help, just let me know.

tbutterbaugh

06/15/2002 02:42:47 PM

God please hurry so that I may not have to deal w/ what is about to come because of man and please help those who read this post (even the one who calls you his enemy, malathiest) and take all who read this message w/ you to be kept from what is to come. Godspeed, Be Well tbutterbaugh

tbutterbaugh

06/15/2002 02:42:36 PM

Once the end times begin you bet God will be no more on the sidelines than Satan and will help those who come to Him as well as make the effort to help those on the fence. And in the end, the fact is that YOU are a man, nothing more, nothing less. What you say here means NOTHING, but to yourself. Nor can your words change what man has already set in motion. There are alternatives in how theses times are dealt w/ and they are available to you, but you and I already know how you will handle them even though I pray otherwise. The sad fact is that even though people like me are prepared for these times and await them for the anticipation is just as bad as the actual events, the true cause of these events are because of people like you and they could have been avoided so thanks for nothing.

tbutterbaugh

06/15/2002 02:41:50 PM

It's too bad they had to delete my messages as well. Sure got you out of having to answer them there malathiest, but seeing as I have a good memory let me reiterate them for you. You see God predicted the end times because even though He knew He would give man more chances than man ever deserved the fact of reality is that man's gift of free will would cause man to go down the path he is currently on, self-destruction. The Bible, which you hate so much predicted that times would get worse, people like you would put themselves at the center of the Universe trying to make themselves above God and apostacy would grow.

maltheist

06/14/2002 06:08:09 PM

Livenwwjd wrote: Malthiest, I am so looking forward to worshipping God with you someday. You are invited to come go to worship God with us now, or we'll worship later. Rule of Conduct #4: Beliefnet has the right to remove... posts that contain aggressive, repeated, or unwanted attempts to convert someone's religious beliefs;

maltheist

06/14/2002 05:56:33 PM

I want to thank the Beliefnet staff members for deleting all the irrelevant messages initiated by Livenwwdj regarding who had "violated" which Beliefnet rules. I apologize to the readers for having to answer his superfluous accusations. Can we get back on topic now, please?

livenwwjd

06/14/2002 03:11:14 PM

Human1, love to contact you off this discussion board sometime. Write me at phydeaux67@yahoo.com NY *laff Malthiest, I am so looking forward to worshipping God with you someday. You are invited to come go to worship God with us now, or we'll worship later.

livenwwjd

06/14/2002 01:50:46 PM

NAMCHUCK, I was the one who recommended Josh McDowells Book and the Creation research stuff to you. Apparently you have at least been interested enought to investigate and see for yourself thus far. Based upon the evidence you've seen (there's a lot more evidence too) You're not impressed and you find no reason to believe. Well that is your right and decision and who am I or anyone else to condemn you for your honest attempt to discover for yourself. I certainly admire you for that. I am very passionate about Jesus because my life is so different today largely because of my decision to follow. I knew I was hopeless without him in my life. The new nature I have been given changed my desires and goals in life which changed my circumstances. I hope that somebody you know will come in contact with Jesus, and have their life changed before your eyes, so you can see the reality of who he is, demonstrated so you can come to believe yourself. I'm praying for you too.

livenwwjd

06/14/2002 01:34:24 PM

Hey H1, Coming this fall to a theater near you . . . Winnie the Pooh IS John Gotti in, Honey War!!! This film has not yet been rated. *laff

livenwwjd

06/14/2002 01:31:39 PM

Human1, NY! Kewl *laff I love that!

maltheist

06/14/2002 01:06:48 PM

Human1 wrote: malthiest, I appreciate the change in choice of words you are demonstrating. To be honest, I really haven't changed anything about my postings, but I will thank you nonetheless for your perception that I have changed words in a way that you appreciate. :) As far as your dissappointment that no one wants to consider your theology Whoa, there! I am not "disappointed" that you do not want to "consider my theology." In fact, in a world overrun by biased believers who do not even countenance the notion that their assumptions about God (and that's all they are) are faulty, I could hardly expect otherwise. You seem to imply that I am seeking conversions to my beliefs (i.e., people "considering my theology") and that the lack of this "disappoints" me. You clearly are mistaking me for someone on the OTHER side of the "Is God good and should we whorship him?" question.

maltheist

06/14/2002 01:06:40 PM

Human1 continued: that might be an indicator for you to examine how credible it sounds to others, and not only Christians. Of course it sounds incredible! Again, how could you expect otherwise from biased believers? Look at the things such people believe to be true about God. Never mind how incredulous the rational mind would be about tales of God's "miraculous" deeds in the first place. Focus on the contradictions in the tales themselves, how God is given credit for saving people from disasters but not blamed for the disasters themselves! Of course a "theology" that contradicts the beliefs you've been conditioned over centuries of indoctrination to believe is going to be INCREDIBLE to you! The truth is often not "credible," especially to people with a vested interest in maintaining that THEIR version of the "truth" is the correct one despite evidence to the contrary. Look at how Galileo was treated for having a more accurate version of truth than those around them (at least initially).

maltheist

06/14/2002 01:06:20 PM

Human1 continued: and B) A more accurate analogy of that part of this discussion is; if we were all here discussing John Gotti, and some harsh screaming person came in slamming everyone around while insisting that we all respect the evidence he has found which proves John Gotti is actually Winnie the Pooh. Who would this "harsh" screaming person be? :) I'm sure you do perceive me (for holding a position in opposition to your own view of God) as harsh, and you hear my tone as screaming, and you see my simple presentation of my contrary position as "slamming everyone around." This obfuscation is to be expected from those whose agenda is in suppressing truly open dialog from people of different viewpoints. Is this YOUR agenda, too? Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

human1

06/14/2002 10:27:46 AM

malthiest, I appreciate the change in choice of words you are demonstrating. As far as your dissappointment that no one wants to consider your theology, that might be an indicator for you to examine how credible it sounds to others, and not only Christians. For me...I did not have much to say to you, A) for all the slanderous insulting...followed by not one sincere attempt to apologize. and B) A more accurate analogy of that part of this discussion is; if we were all here discussing John Gotti, and some harsh screaming person came in slamming everyone around while insisting that we all respect the evidence he has found which proves John Gotti is actually Winnie the Pooh.

maltheist

06/14/2002 10:12:34 AM

It's sad that a supposedly ecumenical interdenominational discussion on the topic of evangelical Christians' beliefs and actions regarding "rapture," Armageddon, and the "end times," has deteriorated into a monotone theophilic drone by the same self-congratulatory group whose beliefs are supposed to be the SUBJECT of discussion! Kind of like an "open discussion" on the subject of John Gotti that only other wiseguys can participate in. :( It is truly sad that an alternate viewpoint, suggesting that the God who "predicted" these end times (and chooses to bring them about) might not be all he claims to be, was suppressed and drowned out by the boorish voices of those who are only capable of shouting "Praise God and Hallelujah, bring on the bomb, WE'RE going to heaven and you're not!"

gapcreekcrew

06/14/2002 09:56:42 AM

next is Isreal. Why do so mant penticostals support Isreal? Because we ARE Jewish!!! Christianity is part of the jewish religion. Christ was born,died,and arose again as a Jew. Paul confirmed this in his writtings. Paul stated that he was a jew,and that his belief in Christ was a branch of the jewish religion. Under Roman, only the Jewish religion was allowed other than the belief of cesar being God. This is one reason why the Jewish leaders could not have Paul put to death. as a Christian, I also am a jew.

gapcreekcrew

06/14/2002 09:47:40 AM

I would like to touch upon two subjects.first,eveloution. There is a god who created everyting around us.There is no way an accident or just dumb luck caused this world. Only an all knowing God could know exactly the right balances of all thing it would take for life to happen. Is there such a thing as evolution? YES, dinosars,human heighth,adaptation of animals to there enviroments, prove this. But it was in Gods great and wonderful plans for it to happed. Did we start with a BIG BANG? Yes,God spoke and BANG, It happened.

human1

06/14/2002 12:55:40 AM

My apologies...feelin' silly, and tired as well. H1 NY!

human1

06/14/2002 12:42:37 AM

Well then...let me post it this way...evolution has never conclusively answered the question of the origin of life! Anything to make you feel cozy my friend. Or does that?! I think I have figured out (scientifically) why you come here.....you actually deep inside are starting to believe this rapture-stuff, and you come here to make sure TBB, Lwwjd, and I are still here! Am I right? We don't even have to exchange posts...if I see you here....I'll just post "NY" for "Not Yet!"! Actually you have provoked a change in me as well...next fall instead of my usual women's Bible study to refresh and equip me as wife/mom/neighbor etc...I'm thinking maybe I'll take a helpful geology course and stare at some rocks!

namchuck

06/14/2002 12:37:29 AM

(con'td) we must therefore be very careful if we claim that our inability to understand or imagine a natural process proves creation (God's existence). Why? Because in the not too distant future we may understand that natural process all too completely and wind up as hopelessly confused as, say, George Washington being offered a ride in a sstealth bomber. Okay, I'll butt out. Shalom.

namchuck

06/14/2002 12:31:14 AM

(con'td) Because we cannot explain how life might have originated (it looks too improbable), there must be a creator, or so you might argue. One could have made the same argument 50 years ago and argued that because we cannot find (or even imagine) a chemical basis for heredity, this proves that there is a vital principle in living things that is traceable only to a creator and beyond our understanding in chemistry and physics. Today we know that there is no such vital principle, and we understand a great deal about the chemical nature of heredity. If 30 more years of scientific work show that chemical evolution from non-living matter is in fact possible, must we conclude that God does not exist? My answer, you may be surprised to hear is, I think not

namchuck

06/14/2002 12:22:36 AM

(con'td) While old-earth creationism poses far fewer difficulties for science, young-earth creationism hasn't a scintilla of scientific support and must surely qualify as one of the daftest theories to have ever been proposed. The enormous and accumulative evidence from geology, chemistry, biology and astronomy, that the universe is a vast and ancient place is unequivocal. And your statement, human1, that "evolution has never answered the question of the origins of life..." is not altogether accurate. There have been some major advances in this study, albeit, admittedly, none of them, as yet, conclusive by any means.

namchuck

06/14/2002 12:00:26 AM

I know some of you will probably want to lynch me, especially a couple of my very likable cyber-buddies (human1 and tbutterbaugh), for distracting from so rapturous a subject, but I feel obliged to respond to certain recommendations made to me in a postings on this message board. Firstly, to the person who recommended reading books by Josh McDowell: I have and was suitably unimpressed, especially by lacklustre and feeble arguments wholly lacking in cerebral integrity. Secondly, the further recommendation to check out the material put out by the ICR: their pathetic hodge-podge of pious pseudoscience is an insult to genuine science. Scientific claims must be testable! The ICR offer not one objective, empirical, or testifiable scientific hypotheses.

human1

06/13/2002 05:15:03 PM

(cont) For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. What happens next is that after making the need well known...God interceeded and out of love for mankind despite the failings...He offered the solution to the problem, enabling all to choose a relationship with Him. So I cannot state enough that one must worry not about nations, races, wars, etc. but merely make your choice of what YOU will do with the solution provided in Jesus...receive it or not receive it...all mankind, individually makes the choice.

human1

06/13/2002 05:14:33 PM

I believe that the history and prophecy of the Bible is true. It is there for the reading and tracing as well. It is part of the revelation to humans of the unbelieveable difference between God (righteous and holy) and man (unrighteous and unholy). What happened at that point in history does not give Isaac's descendants any strutting rights!! They went on to become known for their gross rebellion against God. Ishmael was a product of an unGodly choice by Sarah and Abraham in not trusting in God, but God's grace and mercy gave them Isaac who was a product of obedience. That sets the stage...but study of scripture reveals to ALL that ALL man failed and all races have failed!!! So no room for pride to prance in!

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 04:10:10 PM

Please explain your last post H1? Are you saying Arabic peoples are pre-destined forever to be in contention with every other people on earth? How does that apply to my question of why aren't we more actively supporting Israel?

human1

06/13/2002 03:58:59 PM

For political reasons...I think it has to do with our history of friendship and support of Israel. For spiritual reasons....I think we can trace it back to the roots of religion. Read Gen16:7-12 noting vs 12 in particular.

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 03:52:28 PM

great statistics tbb, Thank You

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 03:46:27 PM

but thanks

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 03:46:13 PM

Carefull tbb, posting links aren't allowed on these discussion sites.

tbutterbaugh

06/13/2002 03:37:40 PM

Human1, junglecat & livenwwjd, I hope this helps, will see if I can find more you. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/mideast_poll020422.html

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 03:34:47 PM

By the way, If war was declared on the U.S. and Israel, why aren't we more actively supporting Israel militarily who seems to be our defacto Ally against a common enemy?

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 03:31:21 PM

It just seems War was declared on the U.S. and Israel and I want to know why. Ok I know it seems I am asking for it but please, do not respond if all you are going to do is rail against Christian evangelicals and call all Americans zionist infidels. I want to clearly understand "what's the beef. I invite somebody who might have a reason to not support Israel to be heard in a civil manner. Alright I'll quit posting now and let somebody have a chance to respond.

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 03:31:10 PM

There was a stir regarding Arafat after the white house meeting with Clinton some years back where Chairman Arafat was loosely quoted as saying something to the effect that 'Israel and America will suffer tremendously if the agreement with the Palestinian people isn't honored. That was in 93 or 94 I think? Well the intifadah started in September 2000. Al Quida decry as long as there is no peace in Palestine, they will Jihad. And near the 1 year anniversary of the intifadah, America was attacked. Why??? If there is an agreement we as Americans made under the diabolical leadership of x-President Clinton, and we didn't honor it, I'd like to know.

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 03:30:07 PM

Clearly as I have stated I am an evangelical Christian and I support Israel. I simply cannot imagine who would not be supportive of Israel's position in this time of struggle when their people are being slaughtered in the streets. I AM Not sayin Palestinians aren't dying too now, but they aren't being killed by suicide bombers striking like cowards. However I admit I have a limited world view. I honestly must admit I do not have access to see many opposing views. Something that I seem to remember, but never found any reference to even though I have looked immediately after September 11th . . .

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 03:13:47 PM

jungle cat, Your numbers sound close to correct. I'd like to know too. Anybody have any data we can go see?

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 03:13:20 PM

H1, well I was just curious. You seemed to have the knowledge and aire in your comments in a similar way that some of my friends who homeschool my children do.

human1

06/13/2002 02:28:14 PM

Lwwjd, I am not a homeschooling mom. I sometimes admire those who are. Our children are in a wonderful Christian school for which we are truly thankful. I choose extra-curricular activities in secular arenas, hoping to expose them to many realities of God's world, and to build in them an appetite to see people recieve eternal life. This has often provided illumination to the difference between the ways of the world vs the ways of God. I try to let it unfold before their eyes...and they truly come to us often with their questions and observations. I do suppliment at home (history,etc.)in an effort to counter the untruths abounding. Mostly as a parent...I am on my knees before God. My parents whom I love dearly...did not build into me much to go on regarding parenting.

jungle_cat

06/13/2002 02:00:11 PM

Good point, tbb. If God wants Israel to remain, remain it shall. Support for Israel has increased since 9/11, if I remember my polls correctly. About 4 out of 5 Amercians say yes, Israel has a right to defend itself. Now, I've heard some say, Well, yeah, if you word it THAT way. But that means that 1 in 5 believe it doesn't have the right to defend itself. I figure that at about 57 million people. Even if we assume half of them are children, you still have 28 million adults who think Israel should sit back and accept the attacks. Disconcerting, to say the least. (These are soft numbers, of course. If anyone can find some harder ones, share them please!) :-)

tbutterbaugh

06/13/2002 01:21:50 PM

I can't necessarily say that I am evangelical, but I do support Israel. Here is a country in the Middle East who deals w/ everyday what America delt w/ once on 9/11. Now when it happened to us we and the rest of the world wanted war on terrorism. When it happened to Israel and they wanted the same justice the world said, "Oh no you can't do that, shame on you." I think that is pretty messed up. Now I also have to admit, I watch the Middle East more carefully because of the end times as spoken in the Bible, but that has no bearing on my support for Israel. Nor do I believe that any one, supporters or not, can do anything to prevent or cause to happen the end times coming about. God's timetable not ours so there is nothing we can or are going to do to prevent or hasten that timetable in any way.

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 01:00:27 PM

H1, just curious and I am guessing here. Are you a home school mom?

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 12:50:17 PM

Kewl H1 I was reading Richard Land's theological reasons behind evangelical support of Israel. You're right on target with his point of view. Anyone else???

human1

06/13/2002 12:41:15 PM

I will also add that I feel a responsibility to pray asking God to lead our nation and pray for our leaders...as well as the rulers of other nations. I am of course enjoying having a Christ follower in office and feel deeply for him and his family.

human1

06/13/2002 12:37:12 PM

Hi lwwjd! I am interested in all that is transpiring in the middle east. I sometimes wonder if it will usher in the end of this age. I am not one for trying to draw conslusions regarding Revelation in sight of today's happenings. I personally have a deep felt attitude of respect for Jewish people which stems from the Bible. They are the people through whom God chose to make himself known...and from out of His love, grace, and mercy toward ALL peoples, He writes that He allowed them to be "blinded" for a time until the fullness of the gentiles (all non-Jewish)comes to salvation. Being a gentile, I am awed by His choice. I do believe individuals will be held accountable for the treatment of those who are Jewish...as we are called to feel a humble appreciation regarding them, rather than an arrogant or annoyed attitude. As for the political goings on....nations will rage, one against the other, but I am called to be accountable as an individual far over to worry over the choices of nations.

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 12:18:35 PM

Hi H1, glad you made it back. i already take it that you are an Evangelical Christian, Do you support Israel? If so why?

human1

06/13/2002 12:08:27 PM

sorry lwwjd...I was typing during your post! You are right...let's get back to the topic.

human1

06/13/2002 12:06:45 PM

holyunsuitable, you ask a common Christian question. NONE of us knows verifiably what God did! Yes, we have the "7 days" in Genesis...we also read that "a day is LIKE a thousand years, and a thousand years is LIKE a day" for God! Also, we read that we are not like Him...His ways,and thoughts are not our ways and thoughts. So for anyone to assert that from scripture they KNOW just how God accomplished creation would be arrogant. We are all entitled to our hunches....and I have heard quite a variety from Christians. This however is an area...like the end times...where God did NOT choose in His wisdom to paint a detailed picture....as if we could understand His ways to begin with. We are finite...He is infinite! Evolution btw has never answered the question of the origins of life. If evolution (which I personally don't buy...however adaptation of the species is obvious)occured....the question still remains as to how life originated.

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 11:57:03 AM

What do you say people? If you want to discuss evolution, why not start another discussion group. I'd be interested in participating in that one later.

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 11:52:28 AM

Lets get back on topic can we? I am really interested in the topic of this discussion group. Q: Why do Evangelical Christians support Israel? I am an Evangelical Christian and I support Israel. For some practical reasons too. Israel is the only democratic nation in the Middle East It is a melting pot and consists of people from all over the world. For a resurgent nation, they are blessed with strength, and wealth. They are impressive and strong in comparison to other parlimentary democracies. They have leaders who are unafraid to "stand" for the same principles our contry was founded on. They also give substantially to the relief efforts worldwide, Even to their enemies. Can everyone who is an Evangelical Christian in support of Israel, say so? and say why? And those who do not support Israel please say so, and say why? Maybe I'll actually learn something I didn't know. Then maybe we can have a polite discussion for a change.

tbutterbaugh

06/13/2002 11:39:07 AM

"People who deny evolution are trying to dictate what method God used." Since namchuck has taught me a lot about debate then I have to ask this question. Aren't people who deny creationism doing the same thing?

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 11:38:05 AM

Brigid, See what in Matthew 23 and 24? As for the first part of your post, Yes God is eternal, omnipotent and omnipresent. Some folks might think I am sacreligious here but I didn't quite get it until I saw something on TV. The best description of those three traits, I have seen on Star-Trek The Next Generation with the character Q. He doesn't just exist in our time, He trancends time and space. Also I wasn't around but from what I know in my heart about God, I certainly think it plausable that the week spoken of in Genesis could very well be a literal 7 day week. I accept it as that.

brigid

06/13/2002 10:50:45 AM

The week for creation spoken of in Genesis was a metaphor. God is eternal and exists outside of time. How do you explain that to Bronze-Age people when poeople in this day and age don't get it?? People who deny evolution are trying to dictate what method God used. If you study how life evolves, it's pretty miraculous and obviously has to have a Hand guiding it. As for the Jews going back to Israel, They were dispersed as Jesus said they would be in 23 Matt. In 24 Matt Jesus speaks of the second coming and compares it to a thief coming in the night. Anyone who reads the whole bible and not just picks and chooses out of context verses can see this.

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 10:28:51 AM

By the way tbb, look it up in Job, which predates the other books in the bible. Job describes the circle of the earth suspended by nothing in the heavens. Obviously this was revealed to Job because man could not and did not have the scientific knowledge to know this. It's widely accepted that the earth is a sphere in the heavens today, but that fact wasn't established until about 500 years ago when Christopher Columbus came along. If men could only trust the knowledge of God as revealed in his word, and build upon that, there is no telling where science and technology could be today.

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 10:16:35 AM

tbb, Many Creationists in studying the half life of the earth magnetic field, date the earth as only being 6000 years old. I've heard on American Family Radio Recent Gene research is baffling the scientific community which largly believes in evolution, because genes deteriorate from generation to generation, supporting the "young earth" theory.

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 10:11:15 AM

NAMCHUCK, if you are interested in seeing what Creationsists base their evidence upon, You can do a search for Creation Research on the web and find volumes. Most Creation researches KNOW evolution theory better than most evolutionists. I am a Mechanical Engineer. I took a lot of Physics and Chemistry in College. You will begin to see by reading the creationist research that if you really are open minded about it, that it takes a much more incredible faith to believe that the complexity of a single strand of DNA happened by chance. It is even more incredible to think that scientists accept evolution theory as fact, when it blatantly violates known physical laws of thermodynamics. The law states something to the effect that all complex matter, tends to breakdown into simpler forms. You're in my prayers.

tbutterbaugh

06/13/2002 10:06:41 AM

If Christianity is a crutch, it is not a good one. Believe me I dont like being hated by anyone and would much rather fit in w/ the crowd, but when you know what some chrsitians know in regards to the grass being greener on the otherside you can't very well turn your back on it.

tbutterbaugh

06/13/2002 10:02:37 AM

And that is not a cut down but a compliment. Like I said before I don't believe we have to give up intellect for God nor vice versa, but as humans we should at least be open to the idea that things might not be incorrect. Look how long it took man to believe the world was round and that is was not the center of the universe. But these are easily more observable instances than what happened millions or even thousands of years ago, which by ANY human is more speculation than fact.

tbutterbaugh

06/13/2002 10:00:37 AM

Let me ask this. If one day to us is a 1000 days to God, then is it POSSIBLE that the Earth is only 13,000 yrs old. Number based on 7 days to created the world and has been approx. 6ooo yrs since Adam & Eve. Is it possible that the dating techniques used my man could be grossly incorrect and the Earth is younger than thy thought? Is it POSSIBLE that the fossils and other such things we find in the Earth that make us believe the Earth was old could have been grossly misinterpreted by the data and not as old as they think? I can't imagine that the dating techniques used by scientists of today can be so accurate as to give a result of millions of years ago. In my mind even 13,ooo yrs is a long time in which a lot of things could happen. Just a thought, trying to be more like namchuck and use intellectual rational.

livenwwjd

06/13/2002 09:56:55 AM

NAMCHUCK, I was watching your conversation with tbb. It encourages me to hear (well read) what you say that "If the evidence was compelling, I'd convert in a nanosecond!" A very educated man from UCLA I think, seriously tried to do an exhaustive study over a long period of time to prove Christianity was a hoax, sham, and a crutch for weakminded individuals. I don't think he believed in God, but if there was a God, he was much like Maltheist in his attitude that God must be a pig. He researched and studied and wrote an exhaustive paper. He ultimately was converted to Christianity and is now preaching the Gospel of Christ, on a very intellectual basis. His name is Josh McDowell and the book is titled "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" and it's on sale on Amazon dot com for less than $12.00. If you really want to see the evidence for yourself I would encourage you to buy it.

holy_unsuitable

06/13/2002 02:50:38 AM

*psst....you don't have to give up evolution....many scientists who are Christians believe in evolution.....(my $.02)* I'm wondering how a person, scientific or otherwise, can be a christian and not believe that God created the world, but believe in evolution instead, when He tells us, quite plainly in His word that He created the world and everything in it? I don't think it's possible for us to understand, prove or explain everything thats in the bible, and I'm not sure God even intended us to do that..more like He wants us to accept that there is much we can't know at the present time, but TRUST that He is telling us the truth....I'm not talking about blind acceptance here,I have questioned too many things to list, but I'm trying to remember that He knows best, I don't, and to accept that when my rational mind protests.

namchuck

06/12/2002 11:29:04 PM

You are certainly right, tbutterbaugh, that nothing has been proven beyond question, but I couldn't buy into the proposition that evolution wasn't true. There are just too many detailed observations that only make sense if we assume the theory of evolution. And I wouldn't be attracted to any God that had, indeed, created by divine fiat - and that within the last 10,000 years - then deceptively salted the earth with evidence in such endless and exquisite detail, and so thoroughly from pole to pole, to give the false impression, not only of evolution, but of an ancient cosmos. That would truly make Him the kind of God that malthiest talks about. As human1 rightly observes, there are many scientists who are, at the same time, devout believers. But surely, that would require a surrendering a literal interpretation of the bible? Would not that render the bible literally untrue?

tbutterbaugh

06/12/2002 09:59:31 PM

It is true I do not buy into the concept of evolution, but instead in creationism. But I never said you have to give it up. Alls I said was that it is possible there are many claims they base their proof on or theory on could be incorrect. I just wanted to point out that neither evolution or creationism has been 100% proven either way by man.

tbutterbaugh

06/12/2002 09:57:06 PM

"Even if God did the believer still wouldn't belive." Was supposed to read--"Even if God did perform these tricks the nonbeliever still would not believe." Sorry hope i didn't screw up to bad everyone.

human1

06/12/2002 09:56:17 PM

psst....you don't have to give up evolution....many scientists who are Christians believe in evolution.....(my $.02)

tbutterbaugh

06/12/2002 09:54:20 PM

But I also believe that when a person is asking God to prove His existence, that individual can often use their intellect to deny what God shows them. I have told this before, but I think it is relevant here. A believer and nonbeliever in God are talking one day. Now the nonbeliever has always been the type of person that has to figure out the magic trick or where the puppet strings are, always looking for proof, but the believer tells him that God does not want to win that person over through cheap magic tricks, but just faith that He exists. Even if God did the believer still wouldn't belive. The nonbeliever asks God to knock over a cup. Just knock it over and he will believe in Him. Frustrated the believer walks away but as he turns to do so he bumps the table and knocks the glass over. So is it possible that God proved His existence through the nonbeliever? What do you think he chances are that the nonbeliever felt the glass falling over had anything to do w/ God, but instead it was he who did it?

tbutterbaugh

06/12/2002 09:45:31 PM

I think the fact that you have removed those barriers you have actually allowed God to work in your life more than you know. Especially given the life you have and enjoy. I think He is tugging at your heart very hard based on what you say. I also do not believe that one has to give up intelligence to believe in God nor does one have to give up God to have intellegince. You are very intellegint. Is it possible that scientists could have the important (big) things, like evolution and such, wrong? Being that we are not perfect is it plausible that their methods are not either?

namchuck

06/12/2002 09:39:21 PM

I wasn't going to add any more as nothing makes me feel less comfortable than talking about myself. Although, as I have said elsewhere, I am far from perfect (and I really don't know what that means), I've attempted in the way I live to remove as many barriers that might prevent God, if He exists, from touching my life. Is the last barrier one's intellect!? I cannot see how that could be. I once read somewhere from a source that now eludes me, that "the glory of God is intelligence or, in other words, light and truth." Surely, if such a being existed, there would be some positive, objective, and rationally perceptable evidence?

tbutterbaugh

06/12/2002 09:37:52 PM

You said you have four children, to which I gather are your pride and joy. I am curious though. If something was to happen to one of your children in which they passed away, believe me I am not wishing this to happen by no means, what would you believe happened to them? They past and that's it?

namchuck

06/12/2002 09:22:40 PM

Your assumption is accurate, tbutterbaugh. If the evidence was compelling, I'd convert in a nanosecond!

tbutterbaugh

06/12/2002 07:21:05 PM

namchuck: I'll tell you what. Everything I ever said about you I take back. I never thought I would see the day, but as I live and breathe that day is come. I read what you put on the other post about yourself regarding Jesus meaning to non-Christians and I never thought I would see the day you opened yourself up like that, and to say the least I am impressed and on some level jealous. Seems like everything in life is going great inspite of the fact you don't believe in God, which is why I can now understand why it would be hard to believe in a God that gives us what you have and you don't believe. Would this be a correct assumption, to a degree of course? Not excluding the fact that you see the world with a very rational and intellectual mind looking at everything in a critical manner in hopes to discover it's weakness. Am I to also assume that if the evedince where there then you would willingly and happily believe in God?

livenwwjd

06/12/2002 05:21:44 PM

junglecat, wow, 3 seconds later i would have read what you would have written. I am a compassionate person, but I know it appears as though I am coming down hard on legion. Well everyone it is because I am. For days we have had to deal with insults and jabs from those seeking to prevent us from having a nice calm discussion group. As enjoyable as it is to actually speak what we believe and share ideas from anyone who wants to join in, I think it would be nice to have an iggy button to shut down people who are just wanting to pick a fight and disrupt the contructive nature of the discussion.

jungle_cat

06/12/2002 05:11:44 PM

To Human1, livenwwjd, tbutterbaugh, whocaresandwhy, angiekatie (and others I'm sure I'm forgetting), Props to y'all for reaching out in compassion and love. I've seen the tiredness, frustration, and anger we've all experienced, yet all of you have at least apologized, or returned to a soft answer. Again, props for a job well done! P.S.- Nice to see a calm, rational discussion! It's been a while.

whocaresandwhy

06/12/2002 04:33:54 PM

livenwwjd- thanks for the note and i will email you. i have been unable to read or post for a little while. health issues. not to whine. and i just don't want to keep reaching out and trying to be nice to maltheist because it is futile. so i haven't been around for a couple of days. also, the bantering seems to be useless. for maltheist to feel he needs to belittle or insult others on this post to make himself feel large is more than i can stomach. so i will email you personally. peace.

livenwwjd

06/12/2002 02:26:09 PM

By the way tb, I have to hand it to Maltheist. He is so direct and honest about his feelings. I did catch him yesterday and made him aware of some inconsistant behavior by breaking the rules of the website. Perhaps the beliefnet folks actually took some sort of action which is allowing us this breather. Most people who have anger towards God, aren't near as direct with it as Malthiest. Most folks act passively or are indifferent about God, wich is just as bad.

livenwwjd

06/12/2002 02:17:18 PM

tbutterbaugh, don't sweat it. It is a common tactic to draw out emotion when you're debating, to get the person you are debating to react instinctively, without careful thought. It is so refreshing to come to this site and hear from other likeminded Christians.

livenwwjd

06/12/2002 02:13:39 PM

Kewl H1, I Love Bro. Rich. I think Rich Mullins and Kieth Green had to go home early to get things ready to be the entertainment at our upcoming wedding feast. I hope to hear from you soon. LIVENWWJD Always

tbutterbaugh

06/12/2002 02:11:13 PM

human1 & livenwwjd: I hope neither of you think ill of me because of my banter w/ namchuck. It is always funny to me how people can interpret the tone of someone's voice and what they say by the words that are typed. But none the less namchuck is very good at what he does. He knows how to debate a topic very well even if what he debates is wrong. I think rule number one for him is if you can bring the emotion out of a person in a debate then you will have the advantage.

human1

06/12/2002 02:02:29 PM

Actually liven, my computer time has ended....the kids and I are going out for the day....perfect timing, huh?! .....by the way....I see we are both fans of Mr. Mullins! He's an inspiration in our household. God bless. H1

tbutterbaugh

06/12/2002 01:57:21 PM

livenwwjd: you are right, but even your plea will not change anything for namchuck. You will see what I mean when he enters here and reads our posts. The difference between him and malathiest is that at least he is not so forthright in his loathing for us. On some leve I think he would choose God, but only if there was undenyable empirical scientific evidence of his existence and not our theological pleas. He is challenging to say the least, but he is also just as bad as us when he uses our unChristian ways against us, the difference is that he doesn't hold himself accountable for those ways because he is not a Christian. He likes to throw our human traits in our face to show what he believes is the falseness fo Christanity. You will see what I mean.

livenwwjd

06/12/2002 01:53:06 PM

is it safe to speak now Human 1? Are the kids where they cannot see the computer?

human1

06/12/2002 01:45:17 PM

well....maybe not their ears.

human1

06/12/2002 01:44:44 PM

let's just say....there is a bit of history here....that's all I can offer at the moment....gotta go cover my childrens' eyes and ears.

livenwwjd

06/12/2002 01:36:21 PM

ruh-roh??? what kind of storm have I started here human 1?

human1

06/12/2002 12:45:18 PM

ruh-roh! Everyone into your shelters.

livenwwjd

06/12/2002 12:39:58 PM

tbutterbaugh, to err is human but to forgive is divine. Calling namchuck a bloated whale is no way to do an unbeliever. namchuck, please realize that Christians are merely human beings, no better than yourself. We're just choosing to accept forgiveness. There is no need for you namchuck or anyone to be resigned to the fate of being cast into the lake of fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels. God is giving people opportunity to look at the facts, and to question God and to decide. The evidence will demand a decision. I believe if you look at Christianity, honestly and without prejudice one way or the other, the evidence will point you to Jesus Christ. He's God. Question him and don't be afraid of doing it. He is patiently waiting to prove to you his nature. He can handle any question you may have.

tbutterbaugh

06/12/2002 11:25:31 AM

Namchuck: You don't have to wait until then to hear me laugh becuase you make me laugh as we speak. At the moment you speak of I will be sad because I will have known of all the chances you had to open your heart, but instead you let it be clouded by your HUMAN mind. Yes I was speaking in an unChristian way as you point out, but I never claimed to be either perfect or anything less than human. Like you I do not always have the self control I should, unlike God who does. I want to be more like Him and He knows it, but He also knows that on my journey there will be those who bring out my HUMAN side and I become liek them. There is nothing wrong w/ an honest opinion and I really do admire you for it, but when will you realize it is just that and not fact. Even I am willing to admit that the opinions I have maybe very wrong and am willing to change them. Maybe you should try opening your mind and your heart to the possibilities.

livenwwjd

06/12/2002 09:37:06 AM

Alright human1! I knew we had to have a real historian in the bunch. Somebody has to have the data to show the ratio of Christian Hospitals, Christian relief organizations, Orphanages, and other "service to mankind" ministries as compared to secular and those sponsored by other religions worldwide. Our God doesn't hate, he loves and he teaches us to Love others, and care for the sick, lame and hurting in this world.

human1

06/12/2002 12:47:47 AM

Lastly...the education system in America (grammar thru collegiate)was founded due to the passion of belief that in order for this to become a great nation...it's people needed to be able to read, follow, and teach the Bible. That is why the motto's of our first Colleges, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, William & Mary, and on and on are Christian mottos. (though slowly being changed). That is why observing the earliest reading primers reveals Biblical concepts...."A is for Adam", "B is for Bible", "C is for Christ", etc. The history is there for the taking...the archives have been unaltered as for now, but the history texts.....wow, what change! Revisionist history....ugh!

human1

06/12/2002 12:35:46 AM

Don't fret...I could hardly call our nation as being characterized by Christianity today....but leave our history alone! Corruption has won over..so all Bible haters may rejoice, but the truth of the Bible and it's wisdom remains, as does the truth of the founding of America. In both cases, the truth remains available to those who have a heart for it.

human1

06/12/2002 12:32:06 AM

still standing...France for example in the same 200 years has endured seven different governmental systems.

human1

06/12/2002 12:29:38 AM

.....I have many, many, quotes from those mentioned, plus more individuals such as Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, John Hancock, William Prescott, John Witherspoon, James Madison, William H Mcguffey, Jedediah Morse, Noah Webster, Alexander Hamilton, etc. Just not sure you want me to totally congest this string with the likes...but I'd be happy to, and w/ all resources of course. I can also share w/ you many proclamations from our nation's early congress which cry out for Bible teaching, and the pursuit of Christianity. As you see...revisionist history strikes a nerve here. Our constitution was truly shaped and founded by Christian men...during the era of the enlightenment across much of the rest of the world. They based our gov't on Biblical principals, and through sold out commitment to God(of the Bible) which is why it is

human1

06/12/2002 12:17:30 AM

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians;not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!-Patrick Henry (you should read the FULL poem from which we quote "Give me liberty, or give me death"!!) "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers"-John Jay. "The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity."-John Adams. "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." John Q Adams.

human1

06/12/2002 12:17:11 AM

SquirleyW, in response to your opinion that our founding father's were diests and not Christians or holding to the Bible: "To the distiguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to add the more distinguished Character of Christian."-George Washington. "While just gov't protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to gov't its surest support. It is impossible to rightly govern...without God and the Bible."-G. Washington. "Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite, by impressing the minds of men w/ the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity...In short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system."-Samuel Adams.

haramcad

06/11/2002 09:32:05 PM

Isn't it disturbing that as a secular country our policies are being influenced by all of this fundamentalist hogwash? I don't see much difference between these and the hale-bopp people. All Falwell has is a much larger following. People who are disturbed by suicide bombers who think they are going to heavan should be just as disturbed by this. Maybe even more so, cause these people have the ear of president Bush.

namchuck

06/11/2002 09:31:01 PM

Whoa, tbutterbaugh, your temperament and most unChristian like way of expressing yourself arises again, and has improved no better than your spelling. I imagine that I will hear, on the day that I am cast into the burning pit of hell for holding an honest opinion, your gleeful laugh above all the others. I will be happy, though, to have bought a little joy into your life.

angelaali

06/11/2002 08:43:24 PM

Hello to all believers and non-believers, those of you who do believe in God and Jesus Christ you know through him Jesus we will be saved just believing and those who do not will not be saved, yes we are given the choice and if we read the Torah, Bible, or Koran, all of these books talk about Jesus, all of them. So that alone says something, and in our Bible me a Christian, I know Jesus,as well as God and these great books have been around much longer than anyone who is living today so! Make your decision to Belive or not its your life, or not. Have a God day.

SquirleyWurley

06/11/2002 07:57:15 PM

Re: rapture motive.... I think the issue is more that many evangelicals might otherwise be more critical of Israel except their beliefs in the rapture/israel thing and the idea that no nation survives that stands against Israel cloud their judgment if they criticize Israel too much around certain Christians. Based on their view of the Bible, of course. That has skewed American policy a bit. We might have always sided a bit with Israel, but probably not as much as we do now, because of that perspective.

SquirleyWurley

06/11/2002 07:52:39 PM

It is common knowledge that many of the founding fathers of our country were deists. Deists believed in a Creator and that religion could be a good force in teaching people decent behavior, but generally didn't go for miracles and holy books and that part of religion. So some supported churches as social institutions that performed charitable functions and promoted certain ethical teachings, but that also explains why they didn't force religion into the Constitution, were careful about the Bill of Rights allowing for freedom to associate as one pleases rather than be forced to associate with a religion, etc.

jungle_cat

06/11/2002 06:05:45 PM

Maltheist, How have I given up liberty? What I've done is like quitting smoking. I never smoked, never had the urge to. Smokers smell bad, look twice their age, and often end up with lung disease. I haven't given up anything by choosing not to smoke; likewise, I haven't given anything up by choosing to "whorship" a God who has done nothing but take care of me. He has never hurt me, never abandoned me, never stood over me with a whip. In fact, I get to do whatever I want, but MY WANTS ARE NOT THE SAME AS YOURS. Can you respect that? (Again, I don't know what has been done to you in his name, but I'm sorry for it. It has left a nasty wound in your character.) I also choose to end my part your discussion here. I will read your reply, and consider it, but will not reply.

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 04:54:24 PM

Malthiest, re-read your letter to beliefnet. What makes you think that Evangelicals are trying to bring about chaos in the Middle east to bring about the end? I don't advocate such foolishness and disagree that my belief system would encourage and hope for Armageddon. Clearly God tells us in the Bible to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Stick a fork in me, I am done for today. :)

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 04:43:22 PM

Malthiest, You have a choice. You are asking me to question my choice. And I am asking you, pleading with you in some cases, to reconsider your choice. I will refrain from asking you again if that is your wish but I would also ask you to refrain from asking me to reconsider my choice. Deal??? Also where do you see that Ben Franklin was an Athiest? Do you believe some of the revisionist historians in the country today? He questioned much about God and religion, much as we're doing here, but it should be noted that Ben Franklin left a fortune to the churches in Boston upon his death. I believe he was an Episcopalian.

jungle_cat

06/11/2002 03:44:03 PM

Franklin believed in God, just not on a personal level.

maltheist

06/11/2002 03:28:39 PM

Livenwwjd wrote: Maltheist, Yes you should be thankful. So you are saying I should be "thankful" that a big powerful bully like God doesn't destroy me? That I should offer him whorship in thanks for his not destroying me? What a twisted way to view human life! I love that you quoted Ben Franklin, another worshiper. Franklin was an atheist. Where do you get your information? Slavery? No I am not a slave of God, no. A slave doesn't have a choice. I CHOOSE to be a bond servant to a compassionate, benevolent and loving God who despite the power he has, has given everyperson the opportunity to decide for themselves. You have the right to choose to reject his offer. And I do! But you do not think I should have the right to, apparently. I do not consider the choice of "whorship me and enjoy my not hurting you, or else be hurt by me" to constitute a choice in the true sense of the word. Apparently you do.

maltheist

06/11/2002 03:28:30 PM

Livenwwjd continued: In the same things you find that are oppressive and foolish, I find are wise and liberating. Exactly! You have come to think of limitations and restrictions and prohibitions as "liberating!" Again, how twisted, like something out of Orwell's 1984. Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 03:17:25 PM

Maltheist, Yes you should be thankful. I love that you quoted Ben Franklin, another worshiper. Slavery? No I am not a slave of God, no. A slave doesn't have a choice. I CHOOSE to be a bond servant to a compassionate, benevolent and loving God who despite the power he has, has given everyperson the opportunity to decide for themselves. You have the right to choose to reject his offer. By his compassion we have the choice to give our love to him or not to. In the same things you find that are oppressive and foolish, I find are wise and liberating. God created us, gave us minds to think anything we choose to. I embrace this state and long for more and more peace. Choose this day who you will serve, but as for me and my house, I will serve the Lord.

maltheist

06/11/2002 03:00:59 PM

Jungle_cat wrote: Maltheist: Have I considered whether I've been deceived? Yes, I've considered it. Know what? I am at peace. My needs have been met. As one of our founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin, once said: Those who give up liberty for security deserve neither. You are "at peace" in the security that whorshiping God gives you. You accept the "freedom is slavery" state of affairs that God imposes upon you and feel "peaceful" in that state. Good for you. The rest of us, as living thinking human beings, are repulsed by the notion that we should also have to live in that awful state that you have grown accustomed to.

maltheist

06/11/2002 02:57:54 PM

Livenwwjd wrote: Maltheist, Read your profile. Wow how brazen, You believe in God but but detest his evil acts and blackmail? Wheew! You say this like it is a bad thing. Do you think detesting someone's evil acts and blackmail, noting that behavior and working against it, is something "brazen?" Do you indeed mean it as a bad or good thing? You know he is an almighty and all powerful God which implys you also understand he could crush you like a bug if he chose to. But you are choosing to reject him? Seems you are proving how Good God really is. He's Good to you to allow you more time here. God is "good" because he does not destroy me? Yes, yes, thank you so much God for not destroying me! You could, but you don't, so I should be thankful! I quote from the introduction to a maltheist discussion group here on Beliefnet some months ago for a rebuttal to this.

maltheist

06/11/2002 02:57:33 PM

If a God exists that DEMANDS a certain form of whorship, he is a tyrannical beast and not a humane entity, so no amount of whorship would please him. It is a losing proposition to believe in such a tyrranical God in any case. You might as well work hard against him as much as possible, in an effort to dissipate his power and neutralize him. If there is no God, working against tyranny is always a good thing, so there is still good effort being employed against the tyrannies of PEOPLE claiming to be enforcing the edicts of a tyrannical God. And if there is a good God, he would not be so morally impotent as to care what you thought of him, so wrapped up in himself that he would demand a certain kind of whorship and damn you if you didn't comply.

maltheist

06/11/2002 02:57:12 PM

GODCHASER247365 wrote: Malthiest- you can't taste an apple unless you take a bite out of it first. It is the same way with God. What an ironic choice of metaphor! Those who took the bite out of an apple FIRST, what happened to them? And why? I've bitten the poisonous apple of God, I got a taste of it growing up during religious "education." Luckily, I saw the contradictions inherent in all that God says, and spat it out. I am the healthier for it. Are you so adamant about being against God because you know that you will not like the love that He has, or because you are afraid that you might actually like God and His love. Wow, what a manipulative con job! Sounds like the voice of the drug pusher urging people to "just try it, you'll like it, what are you afraid of, what's wrong with you, everyone else is doing it." Please do not think you can add me to the list of people who have become junkies for God.

maltheist

06/11/2002 02:56:54 PM

GODCHASER247365 continued: Are you afraid that you might actually be wrong? Are you? Do you even consider the possibility of that you might actually be wrong? Your very bible speaks of throngs of people misled by a great deceiver. How do you know for sure that you are not among the misled following that very deceiver? If the only proof you have that you are not deceived is the word of God himself, and if God IS in fact the deceiver, what have you done with your life? I am not afraid that I might be wrong. I am much more afraid that I might be right. Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

maltheist

06/11/2002 02:56:43 PM

Livenwwjd wrote: You say you have chosen to keep "human law" Sounds great. Afterall it is a fine and noble goal. I am not going to be your judge but I will play the role of prosecuting attorney for the moment. In contrast, I do not imagine myself in a court of law judging or prosecuting (or persecuting) you. The fact that you do says a lot about your attitudes towards tolerance and love for your fellow human beings. Ok, I ask you, if you expect to be judged by your compliance with rules of men, why do you clearly disregard the "rules of conduct" on this very website? In what way have I violated those rules? Beliefnet is an ecumenical interdenominational web site, NOT a Christian-only forum where only the Christian God-loving point of view is allowed. I speak with tolerance for people of all religions, even though I disagree with them strongly about the nature of God. I do not advocate suppression of belief or limiting of free speech. In contrast, you do.

maltheist

06/11/2002 02:56:30 PM

Livenwwjd continued: What you see as tyranny is exactly what liberates me. As Orwell wrote in "1984," war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. How well manifested in the whorship of God are these maxims written as examples of brutal tyranny over the human mind and heart! http://bcresponse.blackplasma.net/christian.html Psalm 118:8 says, "It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man." God said that himself, did he? :) Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

jungle_cat

06/11/2002 02:33:34 PM

As for the article: Nearly everyone I know is either an evangelical or fundamentalist Christian, or were raised in homes that were, and I have never heard any of them say we should support Israel because it must exist for the Rapture to take place. In fact, the "bless them that bless you" verse is only given as a reason when someone demands a biblical reason. The reason has more to do with identifying with Israel on a gut level. It's not because Israel is a democracy (so is France, but I've never heard anyone, left or right, stand up for them :-) ). Israel is a tiny little country, and it's put a hurtin' on those who have attacked it. Yes, it's imperfect, yes, we should question what the Israeli govenment does. Much like our own government. And I believe THAT'S why evangelicals, nay, the American public, supports Israel.

jungle_cat

06/11/2002 02:33:14 PM

Maltheist: Have I considered whether I've been deceived? Yes, I've considered it. Know what? I am at peace. My needs have been met. What I am living is nothing like the abusive parent you describe. I don't know what "abuse" you've suffered in God's name, but I'm sorry. You've clearly let it turn you into a small, bitter shell of a man, and it hurts to see you taking all that anger out on all the sweethearts here trying to discuss the aricle. If you truly believe you get to define your own meaning, your own purpose, you've chosen poorly. It's not healthy to spend so much time talking about someone you hate.

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 02:12:52 PM

Maltheist, Read your profile. Wow how brazen, You believe in God but but detest his evil acts and blackmail? Wheew! You know he is an almighty and all powerful God which implys you also understand he could crush you like a bug if he chose to. But you are choosing to reject him? Seems you are proving how Good God really is. He's Good to you to allow you more time here. You know what Maltheist, don't panic but I agree with something you said. People need to know that God allows them to make a choice, to either serve him (kowtowing)or to reject him as you have done.

GODCHASER247365

06/11/2002 02:07:02 PM

Malthiest- you can't taste an apple unless you take a bite out of it first. It is the same way with God. Are you so adamant about being against God because you know that you will not like the love that He has, or because you are afraid that you might actually like God and His love. Are you afraid that you might actually be wrong? That's ok, God still loves you, still wants you in His arms, but He's not going to force you there. Give it some thought. Blessings and peace

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 01:52:33 PM

holy unsuitable, Way to love man. Speaks well of the change in your heart brought about by Christ for you to urge Maltheist to get to know God for who he really is. I know he's argumenative and wanting to slam us. But to him, our belief is foolishness. He cannot understand until the spirit of the living God reveals it to him. No debate will ever convince him of what we know, that we have an abba, daddy, father in heaven who truly is there to love us. All we can do is testify to the change in our lives. A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, Is God in his holy habitation. Psalm 68:5

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 01:42:56 PM

Just so there is no confusion, my previous posts were directed to Maltheist.

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 01:41:05 PM

You say you have chosen to keep "human law" Sounds great. Afterall it is a fine and noble goal. I am not going to be your judge but I will play the role of prosecuting attorney for the moment. When i asked you if you kept Gods Law You stated, "Of course not! I keep "human law," the rational human law that says it is wrong to harm other people or to interfere in their lives against their will (as long as THEY are not harming others in the course of living their lives). This has nothing to do with God and certainly has nothing to do with the behavior and "laws" of God whorshipers." Further down, "I expect only to be judged on the basis of my behavior towards other human beings and compliance with rules of non-interference in other people's lives as I express myself as a free human being." Ok, I ask you, if you expect to be judged by your compliance with rules of men, why do you clearly disregard the "rules of conduct" on this very website?

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 01:36:35 PM

Then why do you critisize those of us who try to keep Gods laws? I do not judge or condemn as you are. I am not an intolerant norrow minded bigot. What you see as tyranny is exactly what liberates me. As i said I BELIEVE the bible is God's word, and I believe what it says. I know from the personal relationhip I have with God made possible by Jesus Christ that it is truth. Psalm 118:8 says, "It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man." (continued)

holy_unsuitable

06/11/2002 01:20:08 PM

Maltheist, I feel compelled to reply to you, but firstly can I apologise to everyone else, I didn't/don't mean to disrupt the flow of this board, or divert the topic, but some things MUST be replied to. In response to my post, you posted this.. *Like the abusive parent who hurts us, blames us for things HE does wrong, then demands our love as blackmail in exchange for a promise not to hurt us further, God has an interesting way of "loving" us ("deeply").* I should tell you that I grew up with one very abusive parent,who robbed me of my self esteem,(among many other things), and left me feeling periodically that I no longer want to be part of this world.For you to compare God, my true parent, to someone who could do that to me, only serves to highlight even more that you don't know the real God..I hope that changes for you one day, because no one and nothing will ever love and accept you like He will. All else passes away maltheist, only He remains.Let Him in. Written with love. :)

maltheist

06/11/2002 01:09:43 PM

Livenwwjd wrote: Excuse me but the actual commandment you are reffering to, the eighth commandment, reads, "Thou shalt not commit murder." Maltheist, do you keep God's law? Of course not! I keep "human law," the rational human law that says it is wrong to harm other people or to interfere in their lives against their will (as long as THEY are not harming others in the course of living their lives). This has nothing to do with God and certainly has nothing to do with the behavior and "laws" of God whorshipers. Do you think you can judge ME because I do not abide by your "God's law?" I expect only to be judged on the basis of my behavior towards other human beings and compliance with rules of non-interference in other people's lives as I express myself as a free human being. Anything else is a form of oppressive religious tyranny that no person need abide by. Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

maltheist

06/11/2002 01:05:04 PM

In response to livenwwjd's letter of "complaint" to the Beliefnet staff, I have sent this message: Dear Beliefnet Staff: I understand that a Beliefnet member has sent a complaint about my words in this forum. Various Christians here are trying to clamp down on alternative points of view in the discussion, not allowing dissenting viewpoints to be heard. The topic is the evangelicals' support of Israel based on their apparent "desire" to see Armageddon and the "end times" come about. Even many Christians have voiced opposing opinions to this irrational perspective. It is definitely on topic and worth discussing to bring up the underlying roots of a belief system that would encourage and hope for such Armageddon. Mine is just one opinion about those roots. I hope you will continue to foster open interdenominational discussion and will not cave in to lobbying from irrational pressure groups. Thank you again for your support in making this site possible.

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 01:04:46 PM

Excuse me but the actual commandment you are reffering to, the eighth commandment, reads, "Thou shalt not commit murder." Maltheist, do you keep God's law?

maltheist

06/11/2002 12:58:54 PM

Holy_unsuitable wrote: Maltheist, please, do something novel,read your Bible (I'm assuming you DO have one?), and find the bit where God specifically directs us to : A. Kill all doctors who perform abortions B. Hijack planes, and commit other acts of terror/torture to further *His* cause. You will in fact find that one of the commandments ... states *THOU SHALT NOT KILL*. And we notice how lamely God whorshipers actually abide by this "commandment" (one that God himself violates at his whim). After receiving these commandments, the Hebrews slaughtered the native inhabitants of Canaan because God told them to (authorizing them to do so by saying this land was for them). After receiving the message of Jesus, Christians engaged in the Inquisition, the Crusades, and various conquests of indigenous peoples throughout the world, forcing them to convert or be killed. Followed by the Muslims hearing that we are "the Great Satan" and worthy of destruction.

maltheist

06/11/2002 12:58:42 PM

Holy_unsuitable continued I'm guessing that example A and B would both be wiped out by that instruction. Well, apparently you're wrong. No one managed to wipe those examples out, as they could not wipe out the Crusades, the Inquisition, and all of MY other examples. So what, exactly, is your point? God is a two-faced liar who tells us he is "about" peace and love, but in reality his own acts (and the acts he encourages us to commit) have nothing to do with peace or love. I notice also, that you sign yourself *God against humanity: choose a side!*....very witty, but while you may be against God, He is certainly not against you, He loves you, and indeed all of us deeply. Like the abusive parent who hurts us, blames us for things HE does wrong, then demands our love as blackmail in exchange for a promise not to hurt us further, God has an interesting way of "loving" us ("deeply"). Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 12:49:10 PM

Way to go holy unsuitable!!!!

holy_unsuitable

06/11/2002 12:43:23 PM

Maltheist, please, do something novel,read your Bible (I'm assuming you DO have one?), and find the bit where God specifically directs us to : A. Kill all doctors who perform abortions B. Hijack planes, and commit other acts of terror/torture to further *His* cause. You will in fact find that one of the commandments (I forget whether its the 3rd,4th or 5th,see? I don't read my Bible enough either)states *THOU SHALT NOT KILL*. I'm guessing that example A and B would both be wiped out by that instruction. I notice also, that you sign yourself *God against humanity: choose a side!*....very witty, but while you may be against God, He is certainly not against you, He loves you, and indeed all of us deeply. Thats the greatest miracle of all. be well yourself. :)

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 12:40:48 PM

I sent this e-mail to the staff of beliefnet. ----- Maltheist, a member who is currently using the discussion boards, is being very beligerant to people who are Christians. He is harrassing many using language calling us "whorshippers." In my opinion he is in clear violation of the rules of Conduct for this Website. I can list examples . . . ( I did ) I fail to see how his "God is a Pig" message and agenda corresponds to the topic of "Why do Evangelicals support Israel." I also find that he has violated the rules of Conduct by posting URL's and links on your site. There are numerous other violations that is making the discussion group a very horrible experience for some of the members. Please do something about him right away. Andrew Perkins livenwwjd ===== "Through wisdom a house is built, and by understanding it is established; By knowledge the rooms are filled with all precious and pleasant riches." Proverbs 24:3-4

maltheist

06/11/2002 12:26:53 PM

Holy_unsuitable wrote: Maltheist, forgive me for butting in here, I'm just a newbie upstart, I know, but you're making a very common mistake in assuming that God is directing people to do horrible things in His name In what sense is this a "mistake?" take a good long look at the world around you..people rape,murder,kill their children, and very often claim that *God told them to do it*...in the UK, when I was growing up a character called *The Yorkshire Ripper* spent a fairly jolly time disembowelling prostitutes with a hammer, because *God told him to clean up the streets, and get rid of the whores* And in America, certain fundamentalists are told by God that it's good to kill doctors who perform abortions. And in Asia, certain terrorists are told by God that it's good to hijack planes and crash them into buildings.

maltheist

06/11/2002 12:26:45 PM

(continued) Are you making a distinction between those are "genuinely" listening to God and those who aren't? On what basis? Is it just those who agree with you who happen to "really" be hearing God's words, while everyone else isn't? Now, I know you are intelligent,so lets not pretend otherwise...therefore I also know, you would not assume Mr Ripper did these things as a result of divine guidance I don't assume it, but judging from God's past messages directed at people throughout history, I would readily believe that he did. why then would you abandon all intellect and assume everything done by anyone else in the *name of God* has actually been sanctioned, and initiated by Him? It's not "abandoning all intellect" to examine the historical record of God's acts and realize what kinds of acts have been and still are "sanctioned and initiated by him." Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

maltheist

06/11/2002 10:35:08 AM

Whocaresandwhy wrote: maltheist i am beginning to smell a persecution complex. Really? Have you investigated thoroughly where that odor might be coming from? when you want to come to this site you have to click christianity. Your knowledge of the internet seems as limited as your knowledge about God. When I want to come to this site I enter "http://www.beliefnet.com" in my browser. When I see an article on the site's home page that interests me, I visit it, and often participate in the discussion associated with that article. Indeed, I see your point, I am beginning to smell a persecution complex, too, increasingly so as I note the Christocentric attitude you put forth. You believe I am deliberately visiting "Christian" forums, owned by you and your kind, and that I am doing so inappropriately. In reality, I am visiting an interdenominational web site with discussions open to ALL people.

maltheist

06/11/2002 10:34:55 AM

Whocaresandwhy continued: for you to say that we think we own this post is something you created. no one has said that. In calling this a "Christian" forum, when this is not the case, you have indeed said that. i asked you a simple question. can you not answer it? I did. Now, can you answer the equally simple question of why you think this is a "Christian" forum when this is not so. Also, you can answer the (perhaps more difficult) question: why are you intent on circumventing the issues, picking nits about spelling (still!) and asking why I choose to be here (as if this was your business anyway) rather than discussing the actual issues at hand. i am not even checking my spelling or grammar cos i am too tired. You could have at least checked your facts. But then, that has never been a trait common to God whorshipers. Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 10:26:27 AM

whocaresandwhy, To answer your question, I am very afraid of what is going on in this world and in the white house today. These really are some perilous times. If you are having a spiritual struggle with God and are interested in making a new Christian friend, or maybe just finding out what I believe, please. I'd be glad to discuss it with you. I just want to share that contrary to some opinions, God is good, he loves you, he is infinitly concerned about the concerns you and I have, he longs to have an intimate 1 on 1 relationship with you. You do not first need to clean up and change your life to reach out to him. He wants you just as you are and he is reaching out for you. If there is any changing to be done in your life, he will help you accomplish it in his timing. God truly wants you to get to now him. e-mail me at phydeaux67@yahoo.com

human1

06/11/2002 10:26:15 AM

Ahhhhh.....just when I was getting bored with this string of posts...it happens!! Maltheist and Namchuck become introduced to each other. I always knew they would be true kindred spirits. Now the reads should perk up even more!! .....POST AWAY!!!!

livenwwjd

06/11/2002 10:06:43 AM

Shlomo, Lets see, there is a Fanatical, pro-zionist religious lobby of Evangelical Christians that has an evil darkside agenda to forcibly establish the Jewish State and convert them to Christianity so that Jesus can come back to earth, or all the Jews will die in a an ultimate good vs evil battle royal? Sounds very familiar . . . A long time ago In a galaxy far far away . . . . eeewww! Where do you get your ideas? Shalom to you too.

shlomo_sassoon

06/11/2002 03:03:58 AM

At the moment, one of the largest influences on US policiy in the Mid-east is that of the xtian fundamentalist lobby, dominated by the evangelist preachers. It puts the fear of G-d into the leaders of the Republican Party. George Bush Jr. remembers well that his father was forsaken by this lobby, when he failed to obey it. This fanatical religious lobby appears to be extremely pro-Zionist. "Appears", because there is a darker side to it. According to its theological beliefs, the Jews must congregate in Palestine and establish a Jewish state on all its territory, so as to make the Second Coming of Jesus Christ possible. The evangelists don't like to dwell openly on what's comes next: before the Coming, the Jews must convert to xtianity. Those who don't will perish in a gigantic Holocaust in the battle of Armageddon. This is basically an anti-Semitic teaching, but who cares, as long as they "support" Israel. Shalom

namchuck

06/11/2002 12:24:29 AM

whocaresandwhy: (verse 44) Perhaps Jesus is coming 'at an hour' that even he doesn't know about!? If the half-dozen or so predictions he confidently made that he would come in the generation that was then hearing his augury failed, what confidence can one have that they will be fulfilled two-thousand years later?

whocaresandwhy

06/10/2002 10:39:22 PM

holy_unsuitable: verse 41 is the one i was trying to think of when i posted to you before. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. 42 Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the Thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

abarenboshogunvi

06/10/2002 10:24:57 PM

maltheist, Your take on the god of the three Abrahamic religions, and his angels, sounds like something out of an H.P. Lovecraft novel. Yours in Cthulu, Yog Soggoth

whocaresandwhy

06/10/2002 10:24:29 PM

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/61/story_6196_1.html The End of Days Fundamentalism and the struggle for the Temple Mount. By Gershom Gorenberg did any of you read this? seems christians are not the only ones believing in the end times.

whocaresandwhy

06/10/2002 10:20:05 PM

tbutterbaugh right on! i went to his link and uh, well, hmmm...... i would like to know what other christians think of the goings on in our white house at this moment. are any of you afraid? am i the only wuss? i have gotten to where i hate turning on the t.v. for fear i will hear the news. i just like for everything to go smoothly. but i know that is an immature attitude. i have been in my own spiritual struggle with god of late and was hoping to come here to get some support. not to whine but to ask what you all think. i really don't want to have a theological debate. anyone else feel this way?

whocaresandwhy

06/10/2002 10:14:21 PM

maltheist why do you spell it whorship?

jungle_cat

06/10/2002 10:12:27 PM

Maltheist wrote: God encourages people to hold absolutist intolerant beliefs that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Sounds more like your beliefs than those of most of the others posting here. Why do you think everyone else is deceived, and you have the truth? If you believe that God is all powerful, have you condidered that you have been deceived?

whocaresandwhy

06/10/2002 10:11:28 PM

maltheist i am beginning to smell a persecution complex. when you want to come to this site you have to click christianity. it was a valid question. do you also visit hindu, or other religions and argue with their beliefs and cut down their religion, their god, the believers in general. it is a valid question. for you to say that we think we own this post is something you created. no one has said that. i asked you a simple question. can you not answer it? when i clicked on christianity, i really thought i would be speaking to other christians. just like when i click on a diabetic site i speak to other diabetics, generally speaking. i have yet to go to a diabetic site and meet someone who told me that being a diabetic was just in my head. it is generally a support group. and i am not even checking my spelling or grammar cos i am too tired.

namchuck

06/10/2002 09:22:00 PM

maltheist: I've just been to the link you provided and got a real kick out of reading the views of 'maltheism.'. As an atheist, I don't see any compelling evidence for God, but I do see what the implication is - in a world of suffering - if such a being does exist. He would have to be a nasty entity indeed. I would not like to believe that such a monster existed but, of course, belief does not often reflect reality.

maltheist

06/10/2002 08:21:07 PM

Let's try that again, this time with a link that should work properly: http://www.beliefnet.com/study_groups/studygroup_message_list.asp?studyGroupID=2189&discussionID=94362

maltheist

06/10/2002 08:20:15 PM

Thanks for the tip, Namchuck, but that much was fairly obvious. :-) By the way, those who want a more thorough introduction to the subject of maltheism than I might offer in small snippets should visit http://www.beliefnet.com/study_groups/studygroup_message_list.asp?studyGroupID=2189&discussionID=94362, which is the introduction to a forum held here on Beliefnet some months ago on the subject of maltheism in contrast to more presumptive views of God.

namchuck

06/10/2002 07:56:16 PM

maltheist: Though it is obvious to anyone perusing the postings on this particular message board that you are certainly in need of no assistance, you will have to be leary of tbutterbaugh. You have already divined that his ability in casting epithets certainly outweighs by lightyears any logic or reason that he can bring to the discussion. But he is also, as I have learned by sad experience, not averse to telling the odd fib for God. He has convinced me that his faith is impregnable to fact, his belief impervious to mere truth.

maltheist

06/10/2002 06:28:21 PM

Tbutterbaugh wrote: Anyone who does not see God the way most of us Chrsitians do should also be intelligent enough to know that his statments toward God have no credibility nor is it back by any facts. In other words, anyone who does not see God the way you do must "accept" that they are wrong about God and give in to your one true way of believing about God, because you say so. Do YOUR statements about God have any credibility? Are they backed up by facts? The only testimony about your God comes from himself, his own boasts about his power and nature. Why believe that in the absence of already assuming his veracity? He makes seemingly intellectual statements that serve no purpose other than to cloud the minds of those on the fence or who do not believe If my statements do "cloud minds" - that is, if it makes some questioning minds make their doubts about God more concrete - then good, I feel I have done a good thing.

maltheist

06/10/2002 06:26:43 PM

Livenwwjd wrote: Maltheist, I am sorry for the perception you have of God. I'm not. I am glad I've been lucky enough to learn what God is really like, in contrast with the deceptive disparate lies he has told others. You do not know God, that is evident. I say that absolutely. People like you often do. God encourages people to hold absolutist intolerant beliefs that they are right and everyone else is wrong. This leads to the hostility and violence we see bringing our world to the breaking point today. We can and MUST blame God for this, since he conveys the conflicting messages to each group to foment more hostility and violence. I agree with Vikmas that it is divisive and does exclude other points of view. When you say "it", I assume you are refering to God whorship, since nothing in the history of this world is more divisive and exclusive than that. Am I correct? Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

maltheist

06/10/2002 06:24:45 PM

Whocaresandwhy wrote: maltheist one more question. i apologize for coming back, however, why are you in a christian post? if you truly hate us all and god, then why are you here? what is the point? we are not going to change our way of thinking. I wasn't aware that Christians "owned" particular posts or forums here. Beliefnet is an interdenominational site catering to people with all kinds of beliefs. For Christians to claim that certain forums are "theirs" is typical of the territorial attitude that their God teaches them to have, as manifested in the brutal history of Christianity for the past two millennia. Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

tbutterbaugh

06/10/2002 05:52:07 PM

His hatred towards God no matter how he presents it is nothing more than because he either has had something terrible happen to him that he blames God for or as he will tell you he came to this conclusion and reasoning from a logical perspective, but whatever the reason it is something between him and God becuase I doubt any of us will ever know the reason.

tbutterbaugh

06/10/2002 05:50:29 PM

Anyone who does not see God the way most of us Chrsitians do should also be intelligent enough to know that his statments toward God have no credibility nor is it back by any facts. He makes seemingly intellectual statements that serve no purpose other than to cloud the minds of those on the fence or who do not believe, for anyone here who believes or knows someone who does also knows they would never change their beliefs, especially not for the reasons malathiest has claimed.

livenwwjd

06/10/2002 04:26:49 PM

This discussion group has deteriorated. Is anyone really interested in finding out why Evangelical Christians support Israel? I am an Evangelical Christian and I support Israel. Why? Today Israel is the only democratic nation in the Middle East But consists of people from all over the world. For a resurgent nation, (re-established approx. 50 years ago) they are incredibly blessed with strength, power and wealth. They are unafraid to "stand" for the principles our contry aspired to and unlike many Americans, their leaders "do" in a day where political corectness cripples us. For such a small nation they also give substantially to the humanitarian relief support worldwide, Even to those in Palestine who wants to destroy them. Can everyone who is an Evangelical Christian in support of Israel, say so?

whocaresandwhy

06/10/2002 04:18:09 PM

maltheist one more question. i apologize for coming back, however, why are you in a christian post? if you truly hate us all and god, then why are you here? what is the point? we are not going to change our way of thinking.

whocaresandwhy

06/10/2002 04:16:26 PM

maltheist at least you got it this time. yes it WAS misspelled. i apologized. so i am done. take it or leave it. i have not been hateful to you. believe what you won't.

livenwwjd

06/10/2002 03:47:08 PM

I believe in God the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and maker of Earth, and in Jesus Christ his only begotten son, our Lord. That He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, Born of the virgin Mary, Suffered under Pontius Pilate. I believe that he who suffered was crucified buried and dead. I believe that as he said to the thief on the cross, he was in paradise that day and on the third day he was resurrected from the grave conquering death. I believe he ascended into heaven where He sits at God's mighty right hand. I believe that he's returning, to judge the quick and the dead and the sons of men. I believe in the Holy Spirit, one Holy church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, I believe in the resurrection I believe in a life that never ends. I believe in what I believe and it's what makes me what I am. I did not make it, but it is making me, This is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man.

livenwwjd

06/10/2002 03:32:48 PM

Maltheist, I am sorry for the perception you have of God. You do not know God, that is evident. I say that absolutely. I agree with Vikmas that it is divisive and does exclude other points of view. I say that based upon the truth of the very words of Jesus, the Word of God that doesn't waver or change or buckle to suit men. God instead calls men to change to suit Him. Until that final day, I cannot convince you that God loves you. It is the Holy Spirit's job to draw men to the Father. Its just my job to tell the truth about Jesus. The truth has been shared. It is your choice to accept or reject. But until that final day, you are cordially invited to come to the wedding feast. (Matthew 22:1-14) Please change into some appropriate attire. I hope to see you there so we can celebrate together. Many are called but few are chosen. I hope that you will come to share at the table and taste the goodness of the personal relationship I have with Jesus.

holy_unsuitable

06/10/2002 03:05:13 PM

Please do remember that *The Church* both now, and during darker times, such as the crusades/inquisition, is made up of PEOPLE....human, flawed, and often wrong people, and a great many people who try very hard not to hurt anyone else....to coin a phrase *To err is human, to forgive is divine*, and people have erred in *the name of God* just as much as in any other area of life.It's best not to assume that everything that claims to come from heaven or our Father actually does, in fact it's very dangerous territory indeed, and why we are called upon to be *discerning of the spirits* after all, even satan himself believes in God, dagnammit, he wanted to BE God, whats to stop him planting the odd suggestion in a gullible ear....men and women have been fooled by much,much less. whocaresandwhy: thank you for the web adress, God bless :)

holy_unsuitable

06/10/2002 02:56:33 PM

Maltheist, forgive me for butting in here, I'm just a newbie upstart, I know, but you're making a very common mistake in assuming that God is directing people to do horrible things in His name..take a good long look at the world around you..people rape,murder,kill their children, and very often claim that *God told them to do it*...in the UK, when I was growing up a character called *The Yorkshire Ripper* spent a fairly jolly time disembowelling prostitutes with a hammer, because *God told him to clean up the streets, and get rid of the whores* Now, I know you are intelligent,so lets not pretend otherwise...therefore I also know, you would not assume Mr Ripper did these things as a result of divine guidance..why then would you abandon all intellect and assume everything done by anyone else in the *name of God* has actually been sanctioned, and initiated by Him? to be continued...

jungle_cat

06/10/2002 02:26:49 PM

Maltheist, why is it that you believe God tells people to kill each other? (keeping it short to keep the backlash down :) )

whocaresandwhy

06/10/2002 01:07:32 PM

maltheist note the quotes on critisize. it was a joke. lighten up. jeez. and this is email. no grammar necessary. can talk in fragments. k? i don't use caps either. prerogotive is very often spelled incorrectly. it is a pet peeve. that was what it was all about. nothing more or less. why so hateful? no one out to get you here. at least not me. one can have a discussion without venom, n'est pas? i apologize for offending you. i am quite a smart alec and i realize you cannot read tone in an email. my mistake.

maltheist

06/10/2002 12:46:53 PM

Angiekatie wrote: Hey Maltheist- Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, people are actually responsible for their own actions? I do think entities who perform willful acts are indeed responsible for their actions, as you seem to. So, do you hold God responsible for the slaughters and tortures HE caused, that he directed others to do for him in his name? If you believe we're terrible "sinners" who need "redemption" (as God keeps saying), do you hold God responsible for making us that way (and then punishing us for being that way)? Or do you hold a double standard about responsibility where God is concerned? If I were to start believeing in this Maltheist manner, and I went and started killing people for it, does it make you bad or responsible for my actions? If you believed in "this Maltheist manner", you'd respect human life and tolerance for others, you'd put human needs above those of an incorporeal spoiled-child overbearing bully who demands to have things HIS way.

maltheist

06/10/2002 12:46:35 PM

(continued) Maltheism is about putting humanity BEFORE this God who encourages violence between people and wants to see such violence for his own amusement. So your question doesn't make sense. I hate the fact that people claiming to be followers of any faith murder in the name of their God, but they are HUMAN BEINGS! And yet somehow you don't hate God for encouraging those murders. Why not? Maybe I should reword my opinion of your beliefs: The notion that God is plotting and planning against us is CRAZY and absurd. Then your bible is "CRAZY and absurd," since it shows God deliberately hurting people, inciting violence between people and justifying it in his name. Is the bible "CRAZY and absurd" then?

maltheist

06/10/2002 12:45:30 PM

Angiekatie continued: To continue, maltheist- I know many, many Christians who are not sitting around hoping for the end of the world. No one, not even Jerry Falwell and any other evangelical you could think of to try to discredit actually wants the end of the world. If you whorship God, you bring us closer to "the end of the world" by augmenting his power and giving him more "fuel" to inflame people's minds with encouragements towards violence and destruction. As someone who apparently believes in people taking responsibility for their own actions, do YOU take responsibility for that one? Note that, unlike those who hear God's voice telling them they have it right and everyone else has it wrong and go around killing those who disagree (in God's name, of course), maltheism does not encourage such violence. A maltheist would not kill you because you whorship the God who is the bane of human existence. Can the same be said for followers of the God whorshiping religions?

maltheist

06/10/2002 12:45:06 PM

As for your final swipe, Angiekatie, where you proudly proclaim that all you would have to say in response to my replies is "BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH! Keep on talking, buster, cause you only make sense to yourself." All I can say is, spoken like a true zealot! Don't provide a rational response to what I say, all you have to do is say BLAH BLAH BLAH. Sadly, this is often the best one can expect from God whorshipers. Be well, Maltheist World Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

maltheist

06/10/2002 11:18:08 AM

Livenwwjd wrote: Maltheist Your impressive knowledge lacks understanding. I can only take this mean you are saying to me "Maltheist, your knowledge is impressive, but you are wrong because you disagree with me." God loves everyone. Even people who call him a pig. Oh yes, he "loves" people whose lives he tears asunder with his violence (why do you think they call hurricanes and volcanos "acts of God?"), as God whorshipers tell their loved ones that "this is God's will, it was their time, God wanted them with him" and other stupid fabricated lies. And he "loves" people that he saves from the disasters HE causes, again taking credit for the good while shirking responsibility for the evil he does.

maltheist

06/10/2002 11:17:56 AM

Livenwwjd continued: The one true God loves you, God cares for you and is concerned. The Bible illustrates God's Goodness. Oh yes, by showing God crushing those who do not follow him, as in the case of the "great flood" and Sodom and Gomorrah. By showing God encouraging and helping people crush others because he says so, as he told the Hebrews to slaughter the Canaanites, and as he told the Christians to do during the crusades. (This was "OK" of course, because God said so; sound like anything we might be experiencing in the world today?) What is truly fascinating is watching you try to assert that God is good and loves everyone and holding up THE BIBLE, the book that showcases God's evil deeds, as "proof" of this. This belief in God's goodness in light of all the evil he has done most resembles the behavior of cowed abuse victims who actually grow to "love" their abusers and to believe their abusers "love" them!

maltheist

06/10/2002 11:17:48 AM

Livenwwjd continued: I do not know much about your Maltheist Movement but even if God is against humanity, which I do not believe, I choose his side. This demonstrates the pathological nature of God whorship. Here is someone who wilfully takes the side of the one who would crush and destroy him (because it is "his will") over his own self-interest in life as a human being! This is how God whorship destroys human life from the inside out. Because humanity stinks. See, God taught you to hate yourself and your own kind! How abominable! It is GOD who stinks, not us. God blames us for all that is bad in the world and takes credit for all the good. But even if we WERE horrible beings that "stank", who would be responsible for that - if not the thing that created us to be that way? Those who rationalize away God's evil refuse to force God to take responsibility for his acts, prefering instead to belittle themselves and their species because of cruel propaganda from God.

maltheist

06/10/2002 11:17:39 AM

Livenwwjd continued: Your anger is misdirected and has decieved you. Or perhaps it is your whorship of God that is misdirected, and perhaps your God has deceived YOU! Remember, the bible even talks at length about the great deceiver who leads people astray. None of you God whorshipers has apparently even considered the possibility that this deceiver might be the very thing you have been deceived into whorshiping. (If this deceiver is as "great" at what he does as the bible makes him out to be, how sure are you that you are not among the deceived?) It keeps you from knowing Gods true nature. You have chosen to reject God. Your Maltheist Movement is Satan Worship. Ah, thank you for telling me what my beliefs are. It is good that there are people like you around to explain such things to others. (Kidding, of course!) Since your God and Satan are one and the same, I could not see how Maltheism could be classified as Satan whorship, except in the most rationalized twisted way.

maltheist

06/10/2002 11:17:29 AM

Livenwwjd continued: I hope that you will someday have ears opened to hear the spirit of the one true living God who loves even me, and you too. For such an educated man, I see little wisdom. Those who like to proclaim that THEY have the wisdom that others lack are often the ones who need both education AND wisdom injected into their beliefs. In your case, with all your pitiful twisted rationalizations about God, I think it's clear which of us needs such an injection of wisdom. You have the "education" of having read your bible, but do you have the wisdom to read between the lines and see what is REALLY meant by it? Be well, Maltheist World Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

maltheist

06/10/2002 11:17:16 AM

Whocaresandwhy wrote: whoa!maltheist, if i wanted to "critisize" you, i would have. don't be so defensive. you spelled it wrong. the end. With all the misspellings rampant on this board (include your own misspelling of "critisize" which just happens to be the way another raging God whorshiper misspells that word... hmmm...) you "took the time" to construct a response that only consisted of a critique of a single word misspelling. I say again, if that was ALL you had to say about my statements, why say anything at all? You chose to say something, and the content of what you chose to say was a trivial "critisism" (sic) of nothing at all. Do you have some constructive "critisism" or will you just harp on misspellings (maybe even transcending all the way to grammar faux pas, too!)

whocaresandwhy

06/10/2002 10:56:35 AM

holy unsuitable - i found this link. tell me if it helps you. the rapture thing stills scares me, too. well not the rapture, but the tribulation and the whole mark of the beast thing. it has scared me since i was a child. http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Prophecy/Must.Pre.Trib.Rapture.html

whocaresandwhy

06/10/2002 10:56:26 AM

namchuck - jesus was/is god incarnate. he was in a man's body and had the same temptations as the rest of us. perhaps his anger at mockers and blasphemers was simply a son taking up for his father. another human trait. i think the bible only gives a tiny window into what jesus, the man, was truly like. but there is really no need for one searching for salvation through christianity as the message is there. but then, that's just my opinion. i do not pretend to know it all nor do i want to shove my beliefs at anyone else. however, this IS a christian post, therefore, christians will be here. and, like all humankind, we are flawed in the body human. spiritual topics can also be very emotional. when i feel passionate about something whether it be my faith or another topic, it is hard not to become emotional when those beliefs are challenged. perhaps that is what we are witnessing here.

livenwwjd

06/10/2002 10:18:42 AM

Vikmas, I unapologetically must tell you that Yes, you are right! Matthew in verse 10:34 quotes Jesus as saying, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth, I did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword." Family members will be in conflict with others. If you have a bible, read the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. It is found in the book of Matthew vs 31 thru the end of the chapter. The truth is Jesus does divide. Jesus also said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me." He clearly stated that it is his wish that no one should perish. However according to Jesus, by his very words, He claimed that exclusive role. He is the only way. I know you don't understand and it is difficult to fully go in depth on the subject in such a limited space. But if you'd like to know more about Jesus and perhaps how he has changed me you can e-mail me. Let me know if you want to, I'll check in tomorrow.

holy_unsuitable

06/10/2002 09:58:23 AM

Am I the only person who does not believe in a pre tribulation rapture? It worries me that so many christians expect to be whisked out of here before any of the nasty stuff starts, God loves us deeply, I know, but He also loved the early church and His son Jesus Christ, all of whom faced much danger, and ulitmately an unpleasant death for Him..why, as a generation of believers would we be any different? I don't believe there will be any rapture until the last trumpet sounds, and many of us will face death as the price of our faith in the time before that.I hope I am wrong,I really do, primarily because I am a coward as well as a christian,but if I am right, so many christians won't have mentally prepared themselves for what is to come...couldn't the rapture theory be one of the greatest deceptions satan has ever fleeced us with? it's something to think about

tbutterbaugh

06/09/2002 09:55:39 PM

The New Testament shows nothing of the kind. Your ability to Intellectually smokescreen the situation and confuse those who do not know Jesus for who He is more than apparent. Your statements also show your true lack of knowledge and understanding towards Jesus should be very apparent to anyone here who knows Him. As well as you ability to pull scripture from the Bible in which you only revel enough (3 or 4 words) that would appear to make the point to which you want them to hear, not the Truth. "backward and chauvinistic notions like the rapture" is a statement that should stick out like a sore thumb as a statement of ignorance to proponets of the "Rapture", but I am sure that those who don't agree because they have the same lack of undertsanding will find it enlightening.

namchuck

06/09/2002 06:25:37 PM

That's just the point, whocaresandwhy, this whole business about trying to 'convert' others to one's point of view. Look at the example of Christianity's founder: though there is much to be admired in Jesus's aphorisms and parables, the New Testament reveals Jesus as decidedly flawed. When ignored, Jesus became petulent. He labelled his detractors 'serpents', a 'generation of vipers'. When mocked, he became vindictive. He envisaged for his enemies an eternity of 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' in 'a furnace of fire', 'everlasting fire', 'fire (that) is not quenched', 'where the worm dieth not'. Is the threat of everlasting torture, terrifying children and adults alike, the work of a humane person? The sooner we jettison such hateful concepts as eternal torture, and backward and chauvinistic notions like the rapture, the better chance we might have of getting on with one another on this planet.

Nonfundie

06/09/2002 05:01:35 PM

MLK, Jr. said "Peace is not merely the absence of tension, but the presence of justice." That means justice for everyone: Palestinians, Jews, Hindus, Christians, the poor and starving in the world, etc. If you ignore this sense of justice, then your religion has really taught you nothing, for the greatest example of love is to reach your hand down and lift up another human being. Who cares about when the rapture and other events are supposed to happen. Do the right thing and you will never have to worry whether you live or die, for your path will be a righteous. So instead of trying to pick the end of our times, which was supposed to happen 2,000 years ago, and listen to Jesus and the other spiritual leaders who said the ones in heaven will be those who have cared for the sick, hungry, and needy.

whocaresandwhy

06/09/2002 10:49:00 AM

i truly do not understand why there is so much anger and hatred here. i thought this was a post for christians. jesus didn't try to convert believers, but non-believers. and according to my bible, did not do it with sarcasm, hatefulness nor arrogance. have, we as christians, become so "sure" of ourselves that we look down on everyone else? if so, then perhaps we haven't realized what christianity truly is. because it isn't being judgmental and hateful, folks. the message you receive from a scripture may not be what i get out of it and vice versa. signing out....

whocaresandwhy

06/09/2002 10:44:54 AM

k-n-o-w sorry. fat fingered those keys

whocaresandwhy

06/09/2002 10:43:18 AM

GaryLeFevere "Only Christ can unlock the meaning to you. He most likely will not do that unless you have read the rest of the Bible first." how do you know this? is this your assumption? you cannot POSSIBLY knwo what Christ will or won't do for me or anyone else. how arrogant.

whocaresandwhy

06/09/2002 10:40:03 AM

whoa!maltheist, if i wanted to "critisize" you, i would have. don't be so defensive. you spelled it wrong. the end. i am reading your thoughts and beliefs and i won't say that i don't understand somewhat where you come from but why so angry?

angiekatie

06/08/2002 08:35:45 PM

GaryLeFevre- are you reffering to my post? I do read the Bible ,and to me Revelation is figurative.

dragonfly69

06/08/2002 11:42:23 AM

Some Christian sects believe that Revelations was about the fall of Rome. Could be anybody's guess.

GaryLeFevere

06/08/2002 11:16:59 AM

Yes the Bible is the direct Word of God. The book of Revelation is very easy to understand. It is full of symbolism. To understand the symbolism, you must have first read the rest of the Bible with understanding. For example, the seals spoken of in Revelation, are only opened by Christ. Only Christ can unlock the meaning to you. He most likely will not do that unless you have read the rest of the Bible first.

Eliora

06/08/2002 10:50:44 AM

Oh yes, the Christians love the Jews. They love the Jews to death.

RCwitch

06/08/2002 09:56:49 AM

Oh yeah listen to Jerry Falwell,Pat Robertson and the rest of those phalse phophets. I mean he might as well be getting advise from the pope. I think Bush should just do whatever he can to get Bin Ladin. The heck with wishing for the world to end. Enjoy it while you can because when that meatior hits nobody will be left. And if that doesn't happen then the earth mother will shureing do it if we don't destroy her first.

tawonda

06/08/2002 09:44:08 AM

I am a liberal, mainline, Amilennialist Christian who is completely disgusted by the thought that some of my coreligionists are actually ROOTING for a cataclysmic war in the Middle East -- and that, furthermore, they think they'll be magically spared any consequences of this event, because they'll be "beamed up" to Jay-sus while other, lesser human beings suffer and die. You people are SICK, selfish and delusional (Milennialism is a 19th century theological fantasy with no basis in historical Christianity). I'm ashamed to have to identify myself as belonging to the same religion as you, and as belonging to the same nationality as you. Gack.

angiekatie

06/07/2002 09:51:30 PM

About the eye thing, I meant pluck it out! Oops!

angiekatie

06/07/2002 09:50:39 PM

The Book of Revelation is such a hard piece to understand. I was always told that what John wrote about was a vision. Who exactly knows what that means. Was it a dream? Was he suffering from delusions? Was this the direct word of God? I think that there is much in the Bible that can't be taken literally. FOr instance, if your right eye offends you, would you really cut it off? I think that people need to remember that Jesus taught in parables and God used symbols all the time. That is why I get aggravated when people start trying to predict the end of time. I don't know how to interpret Revelation. I just know that I understand why people who aren't Christians have a hard time understanding this, but that doesn't give them the right to belittle our faith.

vikmas

06/07/2002 09:26:30 PM

faith of luther, huss and the like...that sounds needlessly complicated to me, why dont you stick to the faith of Jesus? Are Adventists an apocalyptic sect?

tamar1973

06/07/2002 09:02:56 PM

I don't understand why Protestants believe in this rapture stuff anyway. It's not Biblical. This "rapture" stuff goes way back to the Counter-Reformation of the Middle Ages. Luther and the like were teaching the masses that the Papacy was the Anti-Christ. To deflect this unwanted attention, the jesuits came up with two different theories. One of them was futurism, which stated that the events of Revelation would not occur until the end of time. The other theory they came up with is commonly called preterism, which belives that the events of Revelation occured during the lifetime of the apostles. (for example, Nero or some other Caesar was anti-christ). It's a really pity that most protestants have given up the faith of Luther, Huss and the like and now believe in this Catholic counterreformation "theology". Tamar 1973

vikmas

06/07/2002 08:07:03 PM

Here is a Hindu Prayer O Lord Just as all the mighty rivers flow to the sea all our many paths lead to you. Om!

vikmas

06/07/2002 07:56:17 PM

WOW! Everyone goes BALLISTIC. 1. I am not anti-Christian. I praised vivaldian for his liberal theology. 2. Most Hindus do not hate Jesus, they love Jesus (perhaps they dont view him in the same way as you do, but generally its not Christ, it is narrow-minded Christians that are the problem). 3. As for a personal relationship with god, the Hindu belief is stated in the Veda "That which is known as ONE TRUTH, the sages call by many names." There is room for everyone's salvation. 4. As for materialism it is AMERICA that is most materialistic!

tbutterbaugh

06/07/2002 07:25:49 PM

When it comes down to it, they critisize the Christian for giving himself to God and yet sooner or later they will eventually give themselves to anyone or anything anyway. That's pretty hipocritical. If you don't believe me then explain why people strive to have endless amounts of money so they can buy more material possessions that they will ever need, and when they have it even then it is not enough. The things they do are driven not by wanting to do something for their fellow man but comes down to whats in it for them if they do. Money? Fame? Material Posession? Sex? and on and on and on. So I ask one more time, who is selfish again?

tbutterbaugh

06/07/2002 07:22:09 PM

The fact of the matter is that man has this belief they need no one or nothing, but in reality his selfish ways will cause him/her to do WHATEVER it takes to get what they want. They place themselves at the center of the universe as if there is no one above them. Now this is not the belief of the Christian, this is the belief of most religions and the secular world. They reason to themselves that godhood is w/in and that anyone can reach this goodhood state. typical man believes in the law of natural selection, only the fittest shall survive. This is not a Christian belief for if it was then not one of them would die for their belief in God because it is not a selfish act. Who is more selfish? The Christian who believes there is a life beyond this one and that their treasure is not on the Earth, but lies in Heaven. Or someone who believes live every moment to the fullest, do not give your life up for anything because once your dead that's it.

tbutterbaugh

06/07/2002 07:14:43 PM

[cont] "But do you see how your attitiude is more violent than his, more muderous?When you make a truth-claim about your god, you assume its true for everyone. That sir inevitably leads to conflict. Now, I am not a proponent of maltheism, but if everyone dropped their delusions of religious exclusivism wouldnt there be less killing?" I don't know where to begin. first off a christian who has a relationship w/ God [not one who merely calls themselves one] is more likely to die for their belief than to kill for it. Killing is left to those who claim God or any other religion w/o actually knowing who God is. So no there wouldn't be less killing, for the killing is not being caused by Christins and you attempt at pointing out instances, as weak as they are, prove nothing more than the fact that religion was the scapegoat for their reasoning.

tbutterbaugh

06/07/2002 07:08:42 PM

[cont] "Who is this alleged "personal relationship" with?" Easy, God, Jesus Christ, & Holy Ghost "Where does it take place? In your mind? That is mental masturbation. Spirituality, according to your god, is in the streets, among the poor. (Matthew 25:31)" Mental masturbation? If you want to discredit us your not doing a very good job by making moronic statments as this. Nor are you w/ you failed ability and lack of understanding by trying to quote scripture. Understand what you talk about before you open your mouth and spew this vomit. As far as where it takes place, EVERYWHERE!!!!

tbutterbaugh

06/07/2002 07:08:20 PM

vikmas: "Isnt this supposed personal relationship rather selfish?" "Have you taken account of the ground reality of the world in which you live?" Who is more selfish. The Christian who wants everyone to have the relationship they have w/ God or the avg. person like you who puts themselves at the center of the Universe? "Have you taken account of the ground reality of the world in which you live? Do you see that this ravenous desire for an apocalpyse is really a collective masochism?" These questions shows ignorance. We live in a world that condones abortion, and you ask this? We live in a world that immorality is openly condoned in all forms of media and taught in our schools and you oh hypocrit say this?

angiekatie

06/07/2002 06:51:02 PM

Maltheist- I know you are going to really try to get me for my past few posts, and here is what I have to say- BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH! Keep on talking, buster, cause you only make sense to yourself. Even other non-Christians here are have commented on your extremely hateful stance.

angiekatie

06/07/2002 06:47:27 PM

This is for dawnny, tbutterbaugh, and my other Christian brothers and sisters who are being picked apart by non-Christians: It is no use to try to defend our faith, our God, and our love for Him to people who really don't care. Some of these people want to argue simply for the sake of arguing. NOTHING we say will justify our beliefs to these people. Perhaps the best thing we can do in this situation is to pray that God reveals himself to them and proves his love for them.

angiekatie

06/07/2002 06:34:53 PM

To continue, maltheist- I know many, many Christians who are not sitting around hoping for the end of the world. No one, not even Jerry Falwell and any other evangelical you could think of to try to discredit actually wants the end of the world.

angiekatie

06/07/2002 06:30:54 PM

Hey Maltheist- Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, people are actually responsible for their own actions? If I were to start believeing in this Maltheist manner, and I went and started killing people for it, does it make you bad or responsible for my actions? I don't buy "the Devil made me do it" attitude. Nor will I buy this CRAP that God is against humanity. I believe that people are responsible for thier own actions. I hate the fact that people claiming to be followers of any faith murder in the name of their God, but they are HUMAN BEINGS! Are you perfect? I didn't think so. Maybe I should reword my opinion of your beliefs: The notion that God is plotting and planning against us is CRAZY and absurd.

vikmas

06/07/2002 05:37:28 PM

livvenwjd: But do you see how your attitiude is more violent than his, more muderous? When you make a truth-claim about your god, you assume its true for everyone. That sir inevitably leads to conflict. Now, I am not a proponent of maltheism, but if everyone dropped their delusions of religious exclusivism wouldnt there be less killing?

livenwwjd

06/07/2002 05:17:37 PM

Maltheist Your impressive knowledge lacks understanding. God loves everyone. Even people who call him a pig. The one true God loves you, God cares for you and is concerned. The Bible illustrates God's Goodness. I do not know much about your Maltheist Movement but even if God is against humanity, which I do not believe, I choose his side. Because humanity stinks. Except God has chosen to love humanity. Your anger is misdirected and has decieved you. It keeps you from knowing Gods true nature. You have chosen to reject God. Your Maltheist Movement is Satan Worship. I hope that you will someday have ears opened to hear the spirit of the one true living God who loves even me, and you too. For such an educated man, I see little wisdom.

livenwwjd

06/07/2002 03:50:22 PM

Thinkingman, god is in the tv and anarchy, why are you debating this? It is not profitable. For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. Matthew 18:11 Our God didn't come to the world to pass judgement on one side or the other. We are all in the same deprived condition. God grieves over all of our sins. However his forgiveness isn't going to be less for the Christian who supports Israel's actions in regards to Palestine, or for the person contemplating suicide to kill as many jews as possible. xholdencaulfieldx (wow what a screen name) I am a fundementalist and I am "pro-israel" but not in the sense that you would typically think. I pray for the peace of Jerusalem as God commands me to do. Unfortunately sinful men (and that is all of us) are corrupt. Jesus doesn't condemn anyone to hell. No fundementalist should condem any jew to hell either. Thanks

dawnnnny

06/07/2002 02:24:00 PM

First of all, I don't have a "ravenous desire for an apocalpyse" and my personal relationship with a PERSONAL Christ helps me to be unselfish. You can't truly know God and not do your best to help humanity - those were instructions from my Lord, I won't be one who "he knew me not".

tmaster1

06/07/2002 02:06:34 PM

The Chosen People of God: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/107/story_10730_1.html

vikmas

06/07/2002 01:51:11 PM

dawnn: Isnt this supposed personal relationship rather selfish? Have you taken account of the ground reality of the world in which you live? Do you see that this ravenous desire for an apocalpyse is really a collective masochism? Who is this alleged "personal relationship" with? Where does it take place? In your mind? That is mental masturbation. Spirituality, according to your god, is in the streets, among the poor. (Matthew 25:31)

tbutterbaugh

06/07/2002 01:45:37 PM

And since you obviously believe in God, but just hate Him, you might as well give up on athiests, since they don't even rocgnize Him as existing and any other religion that doesn't recognize God but their own gods. I would say youshould concentrate your efforts on Devil Worshipers. They're the only ones who probably feel towards God the way you do. Funny how really your two beliefs systems run parallel w/ the exception of course how you view Satan, but I am sure you'll fit in anyways. Be Well John Spartan.

dawnnnny

06/07/2002 01:31:29 PM

Malathiest states in one post: rather, to get people like you to doubt the assumptions about God that you erroneously hold. Response - if this is your goal you may as well give up, because real Christians believe in Jesus because of a PERSONAL experience. We know in our spirits He exists, we know from our life experience, our highs and especially our lows that HE is there for us. You can attack scripture, you can attack history, you can attack whatever you choose -- BUT YOU can't change our personal, spiritual experience with the Most High. Phi 2:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth,and things under the earth; (yes, even you Malathiest) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

maltheist

06/07/2002 01:03:51 PM

Tbutterbaugh wrote: Malathiest: I asked you not to lie and you did anyways I did not lie, I simply disagreed with you. I told the truth about my beliefs and how I came to them. Are you that barren in support for your point of view that you can only shout "liar" at your opponent when he expresses a different viewpoint? even more so you evaded answering the question all together Which question did I not answer? Like I said until empirically proven otherwise, people do not hate the way you do w/o having an emotional reason attached to it. This assertion sounds like "God is good because I say so until empirically proven otherwise, and even if you do prove otherwise we'll call you crazy and a liar until you shut up and stop making these statements about God!" I think the way God treats humanity is a good "emotional reason" for hating him. Do you not agree? Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

tbutterbaugh

06/07/2002 12:59:54 PM

The only thing that has been accomplished here is that those people who oppose or do not understand prophecy in the first placed have proven nothing in opposition to it, but they have proven that their only means of attack is by using the extremist evangelical view to stereotype.

tbutterbaugh

06/07/2002 12:59:42 PM

I don't know why this took so long for me to come to the realization, but when I read the article again I realized a few things. One we are reading an article by an obviously biased opinion, which centers around her own conjecture regarding the subject and a possible interview w/ one Southern Baptist minister then applies these two things to all Evangelicals and their reason for supporting Israel. Now to add salt to a wound we have a message board filled w/ people who have taken this article as fact instead of w/ a grain assault or who are opposed to the idea of the end times and the rapture in the first place and used it as ammunition in their own arsenol. to make matters worse the people in this post that have done this no little about what Evangelicals believe, or Fundamentalists for that matter, and even less on Bible Prophecy and the end times as it unfolds in the Bible.

maltheist

06/07/2002 12:57:03 PM

Vikmas wrote: Why is everyone ignoring Maltheist's critique of the monotheistic God here? Instead of lambasting him why dont you explain to him why in Nigeria Christians and Muslims are cutting each other to pieces (literally CUTTING EACH OTHER to PIECES) in their internecine, religious conflict. What good is the Judeo-Christian God? Good question, Vikmas! Clearly most of these God whorshipers are afraid to deal directly with the notion that all their unfounded erroneous assumptions about God's goodness are false. They would rather pick fights with me (and with each other, of course, as their God desires) than address the realities of the situation.

maltheist

06/07/2002 12:56:51 PM

By the way, Vikmas, it's ironic that you should mention the situation in Africa. Are you familiar with Joseph Campbell's recounting of the tale of an African God who deliberately provoked confrontation between two groups by walking between them wearing a hat that was black on one side and white on the other. One group said God walked by with a white hat, the other said he walked by with a black one. Just to make things worse, this God then retraced his steps in the opposite direction, this time turning his hat around! His response after the two sides slaughtered each other: "Spreading strife is my greatest joy." Sound like the God these people whorship? Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

maltheist

06/07/2002 12:56:10 PM

Whocaresandwhy wrote: maltheist you list yourself as an educator but you spelled prerogative wrong Wow, you've got me there! I spelled a word wrong! I guess this "proves" that what I'm saying is "crazy" (to use Angiekatie's favorite word). Is this is the best "criticism" you can come up with to respond to the ideas I put forth? Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

maltheist

06/07/2002 12:55:46 PM

Angiekatie wrote: addressing your accusations of my being "driven by hate"- when you call my God a pig and say he is to blame for all the evil in the world, you are speaking with hatred for my God. Yes, I speak with hatred towards a God who blackmails us with demands of whorship to keep him from hurting us. Towards an omnipotent God who takes credit for all the good in the world but lays blame for evil on others (on us or his fictitious patsy Satan). Why don't you? Nothing you have said has convinced me that God should not be worshipped. No surprise. The mark of this beast God is indelibly etched into our psyches, we as a race have gotten to a point where it's inconceivable to NOT think God is good. I feel lucky that I grasped the contradictions in God's own deceitful lies, and grew to understand his nature. It's hard to do that without exposure to other ideas about God. Of course God whorshipers work hard to suppress such ideas, calling those who expound them (for example) "crazy."

maltheist

06/07/2002 12:55:33 PM

Angiekatie continued: If you want to believe this crap, go right ahead Again, those who believe differently from you believe in "crap." I don't hate you, but I do feel sorry for you. How often do God whorshipers use this sorry tired line? They shout "hate the sin, love the sinner" as their mercenary missionaries slaughter those who do not convert to their "right" way of thinking. As they do, they feel "sorry" for those who will not submit to their will and kowtow to their God. I still think you are crazy! You make my point for me with every epithet you hurl! Also, continue deriding Mormons as "weird," that also shows how your God teaches tolerance for others. How different are your words from the tirades of Antonius and other hateful God whorshiping bigots? Please keep demonstrating the "tolerance" you learn from whorshiping God through your words! Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

tbutterbaugh

06/07/2002 12:50:00 PM

Malathiest: I asked you not to lie and you did anyways, even more so you evaded answering the question all together. Like I said until empirically proven otherwise, people do not hate the way you do w/o having an emotional reason attached to it. And based on your comments it is not like you don't believe in God. My friend I have to say that I give up trying to understand until you stop pussey footing around and answering questions w/ questions your posts are meaningless to me, not that you p[robably care.

vikmas

06/07/2002 12:35:28 PM

angiekatie: Perhaps your labelling Mormonw weird is simply cultural conditioning: People in Asia not exposed to Christianity gasp in horror when presented with the image of Jesus on the cross. Sages are supposed to die a holy death, like Buddha, so they assume that Jesus must have been a criminal. Why is everyone ignoring Maltheist's critique of the monotheistic God here? Instead of lambasting him why dont you explain to him why in Nigeria Christians and Muslims are cutting each other to pieces (literally CUTTING EACH OTHER to PIECES) in their internecine, religious conflict. What good is the Judeo-Christian God? For yourselves, your alleged spiritual life or for humanity?

whocaresandwhy

06/07/2002 11:36:20 AM

I'm still searching for... "In case of rapture, can I have your car?" THANKS FOR THE LAUGH. :-P

reyditutto2

06/07/2002 11:35:10 AM

Seen the bumper sticker?... "In case of rapture, this car will be unmanned." I'm still searching for... "In case of rapture, can I have your car?"

whocaresandwhy

06/07/2002 11:27:19 AM

angiekatie, you are correct. and some of the symbols outside their temples have eastern religion originations. considered from evil in most christian circles. the underwear thing comes from jews, i think as they also wear an undergarment as in the old testament. so that isn't really a big deal, just different. however, they are really big on getting divorced couples back together so that they can be married in heaven. i asked them what if someone has remarried and had children with the second spouse as well. they had no answer. i guess that is where the polygamy thing is helpful. :-) they also believe in a sort of reincarnation. i was told by my friends in the mormon religion that all life is precious. even if you are born and only live a minute, it was because you had some task to finish that you could not do except in life. whatever. i also have relatives that are mormon. and quite frankly, they don't even know what all they believe in. none of the mormons i have ever spoken to, do.

whocaresandwhy

06/07/2002 11:19:00 AM

maltheist you list yourself as an educator but you spelled prerogative wrong

angiekatie

06/07/2002 11:13:32 AM

Maltheist- I take that back; I will discuss this with you. You posted to me that I think Mormons are weird because God told me to think that. I htink Mormons are weird because they buy sacred underwear wrapped in brown paper. I think they are weird because they believe they have to be stripped naked and bathed in hot oil before they are "purified" in the eyes of the Lord. They believe that they have to have seven children to become "man-gods" in heaven. GOd did not tell me these things. My parents lived in Utah and Mormons told us these things.

maltheist

06/07/2002 10:18:35 AM

Angiekatie continued: There is no reason for me to have a discussion with you because you only want to try to make me feel stupid for being a Christian. If you choose not to have a discussion with me, that is your perogative. But I am not seeking to make anyone "feel stupid" for their beliefs (though it is ironic that this is the net effect for you). I am seeking, rather, to get people like you to doubt the assumptions about God that you erroneously hold. For example, the assumption that God MUST be good because he says so. All evidence is contrary to this, and believing in it leads to nonsensical contradictions. The so-called "ultimate question" - "if God exists and is good, why is there evil in the world?" - has a simple answer: it cannot be so, it is a contradiction, thus clearly God is NOT good. You apparently won't even accept the possibility of this, because you're entrenched in the erroneous assumption of God's goodness and the propaganda whorshipers have foisted on us for millennia.

maltheist

06/07/2002 10:16:37 AM

Angiekatie continued: I was wrong- it appears that maltheist is trying to enlighten us all with his infinite wisdom and knowledge of God and the Christian faith. Perhaps he is trying to get us all to think like him. I am trying to get us all to think, period. Millennia of religious indoctrination and conditioning have crushed mankind's spirit and made us erroneously believe the lies of God. Stepping back and recognizing what God is and how he lies to us is the first step to clearer thinking about the world and ourselves. Given how God continues to foment violence and destruction amongst us, we must stand up to him lest he succeed in bringing about our destruction. Why do you choose not to put the blame for what is happening in its proper place? Be well, World Maltheist Movement God Against Humanity: Choose A Side! info: maltheist@hotmail.com

GaryLeFevere

06/07/2002 10:14:07 AM

Most people think all Israel is in the geographical area around the Holy Land. We know they are to be a multitude of peoples from scripture (as many as the sands of the sea). True Israel is being called out of the wildness now! " 5. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

GaryLeFevere

06/07/2002 10:06:13 AM

Hosea 4 1. Hear the word of the Lord, ye children of Israel: for the Lord hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.

GaryLeFevere

06/07/2002 10:02:14 AM

Hosea: 10. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Skipper1

06/07/2002 09:56:37 AM

I believe that since we have no control over the 'second coming', we also have no control over whether or not Israel survives. It will be God who makes that decision. When He feels it is time, Israel will return. He doesn't say it will be thanks to the Christian community, nor does he say anything about the US. He does say that Israel is a lost nation that will return to Him. We, as Christians, are taught to spread the word of God, love others and follow Jesus. We are not told to judge. We are told that judging will be done by God at the final judgement. I believe that the script will play itself out as written and that God will control the outcome, no matter how much we try to change or solve anything.

GaryLeFevere

06/07/2002 09:53:02 AM

Revelation (Revelation means the uncovering or revealing: 3:9 "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

jlugo227

06/07/2002 09:16:14 AM

I am a Christian. And though oblio loathes me- I love him. Say whatever you wish to insult and degrade me and my Savior and the rapture and anything else you "loathe"- it will not change my feelings. Too bad you can't see me 'turn the other cheek'. It's so depressing that we can't have a discussion without anger or loathing. It's easier to refuse than accept. "Greater is he that is within me than he that is in this world". Peace to all....

morningwing

06/07/2002 03:31:03 AM

Concerning Lomborg's book Please read this: http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/lomborg121201.asp (Grist magazine is *very* good!)

maggie4bes

06/07/2002 01:22:52 AM

C.S. Lewis, the Christian philosopher and writer said it best in his Narnia books. The "Christ" figure "Aslan" the lion when asked when he would come back to Narnia, replied soon. WHen asked when that was he said "I call all times soon." We have been living in the last times since Christ left earth. To say now(21st century) is the time is foolish. Yes the Bible gives us clues as to what the world will be like, but not enough to set dates. I enjoy the "Left Behind" series because there is no date setting in it.

abarenboshogunvi

06/07/2002 12:38:58 AM

I think it's time to call it a night. OK, it's a night. For some of you , I know that "Left Behind" theology can sometimes seem so powerful, and its darkness so complete, that it appears invincible. When those times come, remember this haiku, for this is Shinto Bright heart, bright world, glisten like apple blossoms in the morning sun.

spiritbride

06/07/2002 12:12:18 AM

Nature is organic, The Creator has created the organic, Life is organic and death is organic. Every birth is accompanied by pain; when the fruit is ripe it is the time of harvert. The earth will now give birth in a spiritual way, a spiritual birth ...the fruit grows ripe .. all still behaves in an organic fashion

abarenboshogunvi

06/07/2002 12:07:23 AM

con-oo writes, God bless Israel, his holyn land, and may I be raptured soon. Amen to that. Wait upon the Lord, he WIll come for us!! This is the voice of despair. Choose life, so that both you and your children may live.

abarenboshogunvi

06/06/2002 11:58:21 PM

theyateofthefruitofknowledge, Yes, psychosis--or better, psychotic thinking. The yearning, the breathless eagerness, the hunger for the annihilation of the "sinful" physical world by Christ, taking on his Revelations end-times role as "the Destroyer", shines through your 11-part wrap-up of Lindsey-LaHaye "left behind" theology. Come out from those beliefs and choose life, I say. With respect to global warming, famine, pestilence, and ocean flooding, I recommend checking out from the public library "The Skeptical Environmentalist" by Bjorn Lomborg. While it's by no means perfect (hardly!) as a work of scholarship, Lomborg does lay out a reasonably plausible case for being relatively optimistic about the overall state of the Earth's environment. Before you irrevokably decide to sanction the end of the world, at least take a serious look at an optimist's point of view.

angiekatie

06/06/2002 10:03:19 PM

I was wrong- it appears that maltheist is trying to enlighten us all with his infinite wisdom and knowledge of God and the Christian faith. Perhaps he is trying to get us all to think like him.

angiekatie

06/06/2002 09:59:15 PM

tmaster, thank you for telling me where you found those scriptures. It doesn't prove that Jesus survived the crucifixtion. Are you the one who thinks he was buried in Kashmir? If so, I think you are wrong. I don't care what Asian philosphers wrote long after Jesus death. If you want to believe that, fine, but let us believe what we want. No one is trying to convert anyone here.

VishnuMarkDavid

06/06/2002 09:53:40 PM

> What makes that "not possible," other than a presumption that God is good and incapable of telling such lies? God is neither good nor evil, so there is no presumption. God is spirit, not a divine reflection of human form. It is humanities error to see God as a much greater human. Think more in terms of Tao. Like Tao, God just is.

abarenboshogunvi

06/06/2002 09:41:29 PM

human1 continues, how did all this negative conditioning originate? Before conditioned negative human behavior came into being....when all was so supposedly "good", what type of good could have possibly began this conditioned desire for bad? Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, a child was born (good), and its parents falsely assumed that their child was a new life, rather than a new form of life. Thus began the illusion of a self that exists separate from life. The beginning of this illusion was the beginning of suffering, and the beginning, as well, of the possibility of sinful thoughts, words, and actions.

abarenboshogunvi

06/06/2002 09:22:49 PM

human1 also writes, I would agree that sin can condition more sin... Conditioning is not sin. Conditioning is the internal programming by which an individual (human or animal (animals being more limited, of course) is turned into a person who will fit into a given culture (human and/or animal). Conditioning leads to a combination of positive and negative thoughts, words, and actions.

abarenboshogunvi

06/06/2002 09:12:52 PM

human1 writes, Where did the first person receive their "conditioning" and by whom or what? Well, there never was a "first person", strictly speaking (but I understand what you mean). People long ago were conditioned the same way we are, and by the same people.

FoundSheepOfIsrael1

06/06/2002 08:54:52 PM

It may surprise some to know that the current cosmology regarding "satan" finds roots in NEITHER traditional Christianity, nor ancient Hebrew, but rather evolved from the manichean dualism of zoroastrianism, which found its way into judaism through the captives of Judah in Babylon. "Sata" (from which we get "satan") is Aramaic, and means, simply, to fail. abarenboshogunvi says: Shintoists have absolutely no experience of the "God/satan" that you vividly describe. In any form. Not surprisingly, such a "God/satan" is completely absent from Shinto. con-oh! fly away then, a better world awaits, sans ersatz Israel! con-oo says: God bless Israel, his holyn land, and may I be raptured soon. Amen to that. Wait upon the Lord, he WIll come for us!!

human1

06/06/2002 08:53:40 PM

Yes, abaren, I am in the midst of raising two amazing children. Best of luck to you as you take the parenting plunge! It is a very rich and satisfying part of life....and the portion of life which speaks very vividly about truth regarding the origins of sin (or "negative conditioned behavior). It will pretty quickly prove to you that the condition which brings about this negative behavior is actually the "human" condition!! We were born that way...but parents can train their children away from the more defeating desires...and God can actually recreate hearts to crave just the good and productive desires, that is if He is allowed in!

human1

06/06/2002 08:44:34 PM

abaren: question for you...respectfully as always. Where did the first person receive their "conditioning" and by whom or what? I would agree that sin can condition more sin...it's actually a Biblical notion, but how did all this negative conditioning originate? Before conditioned negative human behavior came into being....when all was so supposedly "good", what type of good could have possibly began this conditioned desire for bad?

theyateofthefruitofknowledge

06/06/2002 08:20:57 PM

pure psychosis? answer part2 example: global warming (isn't this the destruction of earth by fire), famine (plenty of contries are in dire need of food sources due to over-population, pestilence (muted virsus that scientist are trying to keep up with to control), destruction by water (the fast melting of the polar caps), and so on. you can take things literally or you can read between the lines... not everything is as simple as black and white. Funny though that scientist, historians, humanist, etc. both believers and non-believers have used and continue using the bible as a source for things that they want to prove (in studies of course because I am sure you'll have a rebutle to this subject). And it isn't only in the bible it is in various religious readings for different religions around the world.

theyateofthefruitofknowledge

06/06/2002 08:20:04 PM

abarenboshogunvi Pure psychosis? actually I gave those as examples... because regardless of what you think or what your opinion is about the bible. the bible is one of the only books that what is written in prophetic matter it can be compared to different events that have happened and will happen.

abarenboshogunvi

06/06/2002 07:46:27 PM

human1 writes, abaren, also, do you have kids? Not yet, but soon. :-) I'm just thinking of the common belief that we are born good and sinless... They truly are amazing, no? just curious if you have raised any little ones yet. Just my sister.

abarenboshogunvi

06/06/2002 07:42:11 PM

maltheist, Shintoists have absolutely no experience of the "God/satan" that you vividly describe. In any form. Not surprisingly, such a "God/satan" is completely absent from Shinto.

con-oo

06/06/2002 07:38:18 PM

God bless Israel, his holyn land, and may I be raptured soon. Amen to that. Wait upon the Lord, he WIll come for us!!

abarenboshogunvi

06/06/2002 07:33:17 PM

theyateofthefruitofknowledge writes (6/6/02 at 3:16:22 PM), [extremely violent, 11-part description of the end of the physical world, written with an eager, yearning expectation and ravenous hunger, deleted...to the relief of the inhabitants of Puerto Rico and Hawaii] Pure psychosis. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Stop it. Now.

abarenboshogunvi

06/06/2002 07:25:23 PM

[part 2] The problem, of course, is that acting from conditioning is "easier, quicker, more seductive" (Vader)...and will always, to a greater or lesser degree, steer you wrong. Hence the importance of being "mindful of your thoughts, Anakin".

abarenboshogunvi

06/06/2002 07:25:07 PM

human1 writes, as a Bible believer, I have learned to look at the heart differently. Jeremiah 17:9 says,"the heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure." I have seen in my own heart longings for things which are not for the best. Ours hearts are certainly capable of much good, but they can also crave that which is detrimental to us and others! They can lead us into great regret...has this never happened to you? Of course. But I now recognize that what I was doing was not acting from the heart, but rather, acting from mental and bodily conditioning. I firmly believe that when one truly listens to, and then acts from, the heart ("the unconditioned self", IOW), one's course will be true. Realizing and accepting this was a long time coming for me. [continued in part 2]

human1

06/06/2002 06:47:19 PM

Wars and hatred among men stem from man's sinful pride and arrogance...not from God. God is love. God also loves you. The hatred you spew comes not from Him, nor from the truth.

human1

06/06/2002 06:45:08 PM

malt: Why would you believe that God goes around whispering to people that they are His chosen? I have never claimed He told Christians that...haven't met any Christians who say they were told that. I do believe that God chose to reveal Himself through Israel....and then He went on to make Himself known through them to all nations. Today, He continues to choose to show who He is through the lives of any who believe in Him...The Bible is the written revelation of who He is and is His word...available to ALL.

maltheist

06/06/2002 06:14:49 PM

Tbutterbaugh wrote: Malthiest, honestly tell me what happened that made you hate God so adimately and blame Him for the troubles in the world. Don't lie and say it was a logical and rational decision. Well, since that wouldn't be a lie, I guess I have no way of answering you. It was a logical and rational decision given the evidence. You work from the presumption that God is good (because you were taught this and because he says so) and work from there, reaching all sorts of theological paradoxes like "why is there evil in the world if God is omnipotent and benevolent?" I recognize that the paradox is indicative of an invalid assumption, namely that God is good. The evidence can lead to no other conclusion once that erroneous assumption that God MUST be good has been shirked.

maltheist

06/06/2002 06:14:34 PM

Human1 wrote: maltheist: I have tried to offer you the benefit of the doubt...but you just flow with lies here. Which things that I say do you consider lies? Can you substantiate the claim that I "just flow with lies" or are you only capable of smearing those who disagree with you by making statements like that? Also, just because rebellion from the truth has caused man to go and concoct other religions that more readily suit their appetite and unrepentive spirits...doesn't make them accurate. Fortunately for you, of course, you happen to believe in the one "right" religion. The others are all misled in believing that God chose them, but not you. Right? I cannot believe you feel that God has told all religions they are His chosen people....man has simply asserted this on their own...it is not based upon truth. So you are calling the people who hear God tell them these things liars, too?

maltheist

06/06/2002 06:14:14 PM

VishnuMarkDavid wrote: If what you say is true, then why has God repeatedly told so many different groups that they are his chosen ones, that THEY have it right and all the others have it wrong? Excellent question. Did God actually ever tell anyone that they were Its chosen people? No, because it's not possible. I agree that it is not possible for each disparate group to be the ONE chosen people of God. It is a logical oxymoron. But is it not possible that God TOLD all these disparate groups this lie? What makes that "not possible," other than a presumption that God is good and incapable of telling such lies? For a group to write in their own scripture that they are the chosen does not make it true. So you too are calling these people who hear the word of God liars, too?

VishnuMarkDavid

06/06/2002 06:01:18 PM

> even I think there is some truth in all religions I agree. There is "some truth" in all, or at least most, religions (I don't want to say all because there are no doubt religions that I have never heard of before).

vikmas

06/06/2002 05:55:44 PM

or rather, anti-religion. VishnuDavid--harsh words about Christianity, even I think there is some truth in all religions (even maltheism) because if one looks at how the religions all tell radically different stories, and that EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT people are members of all religions, then I can atleast see the "critique" of god that maltheism proposes, though I dont agree with its exchatology or its abusive language.

vikmas

06/06/2002 05:49:39 PM

Judaism-Christianity-Islam-Mormonism-Maltheism! Is this an AMERICAN RELIGION maltheist?

tbutterbaugh

06/06/2002 05:38:15 PM

I want to honestly know and understand the reasons behind your posts and the things you say and obviously feel.

tbutterbaugh

06/06/2002 05:36:09 PM

Malthiest, honestly tell me what happened that made you hate God so adimately and blame Him for the troubles in the world. Don't lie and say it was a logical and rational decision. Your hatred of Him stems from an emotional root and it is obvious by your posts. People do not hate as you do w/o having a deep rooted emotional basis behind it.

human1

06/06/2002 05:33:30 PM

maltheist: I have tried to offer you the benefit of the doubt...but you just flow with lies here. You have obviously not studied the Bible (studied....for years...rather than glance at and abuse )you show NO signs of understanding the first thing about the teachings in it. Also, just because rebellion from the truth has caused man to go and concoct other religions that more readily suit their appetite and unrepentive spirits...doesn't make them accurate. I cannot believe you feel that God has told all religions they are His chosen people....man has simply asserted this on their own...it is not based upon truth.

VishnuMarkDavid

06/06/2002 05:32:17 PM

> If what you say is true, then why has God repeatedly told so many different groups that they are his chosen ones, that THEY have it right and all the others have it wrong? Excellent question. Did God actually ever tell anyone that they were Its chosen people? No, because it's not possible. You will notice that it is the group themselves that are saying God has chosen them. For a group to write in their own scripture that they are the chosen does not make it true. Kind of a no brainer don't you think.

VishnuMarkDavid

06/06/2002 05:24:18 PM

Christianity is a belief system which for the most part has nothing to do with truth. No matter how deeply and sincerely one may believe, it will never turn that belief into truth. I could have a rock solid, unwavering belief in the easter bunny or the tooth fairy, but that will never make either the truth. Christianity, sadly, has fallen into the same category.

maltheist

06/06/2002 05:23:23 PM

VishnuMarkDavid wrote: The US should NOT support Israel over the Palestinians, or any other people for that matter. Why? Because God has no chosen people. All are equal in the eyes of God for all are Gods children. All are "equal" only in the sense that each group gets victimized and betrayed by God serially in an equally abusive manner. If what you say is true, then why has God repeatedly told so many different groups that they are his chosen ones, that THEY have it right and all the others have it wrong? Clearly for one reason only: because fomenting hatred between people, telling each group that THEY are the chosen ones, is the surest way to foment the hatred necessary to produce the violence and destruction God loves. Why else would God do this? Look at history, at the world around us, and at the people posting here for clear proof of this. Notice how historically each group is told they are the chosen ones, only to be betrayed by God in the end. Christians, you're next on the queue!

vikmas

06/06/2002 05:07:01 PM

That is Hinduism VishnuMark, not Christianity.

VishnuMarkDavid

06/06/2002 05:02:28 PM

The US should NOT support Israel over the Palestinians, or any other people for that matter. Why? Because God has no chosen people. All are equal in the eyes of God for all are Gods children. Secondly, there will be no rapture. And there will be no second coming of Christ (which is not synonymous with the man Jesus of Nazareth) because Christ never left. Christ existed before Jesus, and continues to exsist after the death of Jesus. Christ has always existed within the hearts of each and every one of us, regardless of religious belief or unbelief. Christianity is one of the most misunderstood and misinterpreted religions. IF Jesus were to return today, he would not be a Christian.

tbutterbaugh

06/06/2002 04:53:38 PM

Although I can't at this time offer proof of what I say regarding Margaret McDonald I can offer the origin of the Rapture theory, if you all will allow me to. What I have to type isn't as long as you may think, but you all let me know, and I will or will not based on you.

vikmas

06/06/2002 04:45:46 PM

Thats GOOD to hear!

vikmas

06/06/2002 04:45:26 PM

vivaldiam: Thats got to hear! Its important for people like you to express your views, because the fundies have quite a way with the media (and the internet). If non-Christians speak out against them. 1. We risk persecution 2. We will be lableled bigots (as I have been).

tbutterbaugh

06/06/2002 04:40:24 PM

No I do not accept that the PreTrib theory, and yes I said theory no matter how much I believe it to be fact myself, was based from the visions of Margaret McDonald. I apologize , but I do not have the information to back myself up on this at the moment but should have it tomorrow. The idea of Margaret McDonald was used against the PreTrib theory by a gentleman (will get name tomorrow) who hated the PreTrib theory so much that he published unreliable information against it using Margaret McDonald a basis for his argument. His hatred for this theory steemed because he believed it was the reason for the terrible things that happened in his life. More to Come...

vivaldian

06/06/2002 03:58:48 PM

Then why dont liberal protestants and catholics come out IN OPPOSITION to this end-time lunacy? Vikmas Many do - take a look at any thread on the Rapture on the Christian Debate or Learn About Christianity boards. One reason the Fundigelical voice is louder is because their exclusionary beliefs make them strong believers in proseletysing. Mainline and Catholic Christians are more inclined to look for the good that exists in other faiths, proseletyse less, and so are heard less often.

vivaldian

06/06/2002 03:52:40 PM

tbutterbaugh Where did the doctrine come from? I've always heard that Margaret MacDonald's visions were, if not the only impetus behind it's creation, certainly among them. I'm assuming, from your other posts, that you youself do not accept it.

jlugo227

06/06/2002 03:31:58 PM

I believe the rapture is coming soon and to those who don't think so- watch me fly!!

normfromga

06/06/2002 03:24:09 PM

I believe many American fundamentalists, like many European leaders, are pro-Zionists, but may also be anti-Jewish; I suspect some of these evangelistic supporters of Israel have met more times with Prime Minister Sharon than with the rabbis back in their own hometown. Is it just because of dire pre-Trib predictions? Perhaps. But may I offer an alternate motivation? If the Israelis fail in the struggle to keep hold of Palestine, what will happen to all those Jews? Where would they go? Like Sen. Helms supposedly said after deciding not to fight the appointment of a gay-activist to Luxemburg as Clinton’s ambassador, “Better over there than over here…”

theyateofthefruitofknowledge

06/06/2002 03:18:29 PM

7. Every person on earth will be covered with great running festering boils. Rev. 16:2-11. 8. The seven seas of the earth will be turned into blood. Every river, stream, and basin will become as blood. This plague will produce mind-numbing thirst from which there will be no relief. Revelation 8:8, 11:6. 9. The sun will scorch the earth and men with fire. Major uncontrollable fires will break out all over the world, spontaneously destroying homes, vegetation, and livestock. Rev. 16:8. 10. Mighty men, kings, and men of power will gnaw their tongues in pain and crawl into caves and beg God to kill them. Revelation 6:15. 11. The earth will quake so severely that the islands of the sea will disappear. Puerto Rico and Hawaii will be covered with water. Every building, every wall will crumble. Millions will be trapped beneath the rubble with no one to come to their aid. Revelation 16:18.

theyateofthefruitofknowledge

06/06/2002 03:18:14 PM

5. There will be worldwide famine unlike anything the world has ever seen. Revelation 18:8 6. There will be a world war so bloody that the blood of those killed in battle will flow for two hundred miles up to the bridle of a horse in the Valley of Jezreel. This will be during the Battle of Armageddon. During the Great Tribulation, one third of all the remaining people on the earth will be killed. Revelation 14:20.

theyateofthefruitofknowledge

06/06/2002 03:16:22 PM

Biblical truth. Tribulation: 1. One-fourth of mankind will die near the beginning of the ribulation--some because of war, some because of famine, and still others by the wild beast of the earth. Whether by death that is swift and instant or death that is lingering and excruciating--25% of all people will die and that is just in the beginning! That could total approximately 1.5 billion people. 2. One-third of all vegetation will be burned up. All grass, every tree, and everything green will be destroyed. Revelation 8:12. 3. The sun and moon will be darkened as nature goes into revolt. Revelation 8:12. 4. The gates of hell will open and hordes of locusts, the size of horses, will come upon the earth. Those locusts will be allowed to sting men like scorpions and the pain will last for five months. The Bible says men will beg God to let them die but they will not die. Revelation 9:3-6.

jkopanko

06/06/2002 02:34:54 PM

Note to EdNutter, I don't care what book you found what quote in. That has nothing to do with any point I have made: I am talking about morality, not dogma. If you want to address what I said in a meaningful way, examine what I say in terms of a universal (and Christian) moral standards: Compassion, humility, benevolence, community with the rest of your fellow creation, love, etc. There are many "books" with by many authors, from many periods, with many enterpretations. These are definitively subjective. The spirit of genuine religious experience it to DERRIVE and DISTILL the UNIVERSAL moral standards FROM the subjective, historical writings and saints--not to turn them into idols.

FoundSheepOfIsrael1

06/06/2002 02:18:52 PM

The "Rapture" belief is NOT to be found in Scripture. Our Redeemer's disciples came OUT FROM Jerusalem "to greet Him" (apantesis), and where did they go? Galilee? Heaven? No! They returned to Jerusalem with Him! Christians will NOT escape this sin-filled planet, but will prevail THROUGH tribulations, as our ancestors have before (Read Foxes' Book of Martyrs). In the land of regathered Israel (I believe America, NOT Palestine - read 2 Samuel 7:10, a prophecy concerning dispersed Israel given IN the old land), Christians will be delivered from prophetic Babylon, even as they are active IN the deliverance. Read Micah 4 & 5. "We shall overcome" indeed! Are we not the Overcomers? Our King and Savior SHALL reign, and IS, UNTIL He has put all His enemies under His footstool. Did not He tell us, "My Kingdom is not of this world (order)"? His reign is in and through all who have the Spirit of YHVH. Without us, chaos would quickly ensue. Wishful thinking never produced a race of kings and priests (Rev. 5:10).

tbutterbaugh

06/06/2002 02:18:44 PM

Contrary to what some might believe this is not a majority view. I think anynone(mostly people in opposition make this claim) who says that the "TV" Evangelists, which is what most of you are really refering to when you say evangelical, have a lot of political power are really only giving them undue credit to support their paranoid, conspiracy theory claims of end time prophecy.

tbutterbaugh

06/06/2002 02:15:14 PM

As you see in this very message board there are many, both Christian and Non-Christian, that come out in opposition to the idea of the Rapture and the end time events in General. I can guarntee as we have seen here that the Real World works in the same manner. For every person you have speaking for these two events you will find many more who will quickly jump in opposition to them.

vikmas

06/06/2002 02:02:46 PM

vivaldian: Then why dont liberal protestants and catholics come out IN OPPOSITION to this end-time lunacy?

tbutterbaugh

06/06/2002 01:31:30 PM

Sounds like there are a lot of people here who need a lesson in the Rapture as well as the true reason why there are Christians who study prophecy? For I have not read from one person here (Christians and Non Christians alike) who get what the whole concept is actually about, istead they look to the extremesits who wrongly use, interpret, preach, etc. or somehow devise their own message about what is preached and then attach that label to the legitimate people who study prophecy for its intended purpose.

tbutterbaugh

06/06/2002 01:27:09 PM

vivaldian: I was wondering when someone would bring up the false notion that the talk of the Rapture began in the 19th century by Margaret McDonald. This is an icorrect assumption made by some who do not buy into the idea of the Rapture. I will be happy to show you where this false belief came from.

vivaldian

06/06/2002 01:02:55 PM

Not entirely so. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod does not subscribe to the doctrine of the Rapture and Millennialism. I wouldn't class the LCMS as Evangelical Protestants. They're very conservative certainly, but theologically they differ from EPs in many ways - they're rejection of Premillenial Dispensationalism is one example of this, as is their catholic view of the Sacraments.

maltheist

06/06/2002 12:59:11 PM

There is still a total lack of understanding here about the very nature of God. Clearly the God whorshiped by Christian, Jew, and Muslim alike is a vicious mongrel pig who feeds on human whorship and craves destruction and violence. He tells each group they are his chosen ones to foment hatred and violence between them. Like an abusive parent, he demands that we whorship him in exchange for not being hurt, then blames us for everything that HE causes. Anything he says in his bible can be automatically discounted as a lie, yet these people would tell us it's the "truth" because HE says so! Isn't that ridiculous? These people speak often of a "great deceiver" who would lead us astray toward our own destruction. It never occurs to these people that they are whorshiping that very deceiver, that they have taken his words as truth, and that they have relegated humanity's needs to second place behind the wishes of this beast.

ClaCLady

06/06/2002 12:53:06 PM

I believe that if we are not careful we will miss the real point of Christianity and that is to spread the Gospel. Now if those who hear the Gospel chose not to believe it, that is no reflection on us, they have been warned and as I am fond of saying, God does not allow anything to happen unless He warns us first. So, you can denounce all that we as Christians believe and are trying to tell you or you can believe and be saved. Because that is our passion, seeing souls come to Christ. To be raptured or not to be raptured is purely in the interpretation of the scripture and who is doing the interpretation, but salvation is a given. Why would you debate over the rapture when salvation is knocking at the door of your heart. Believe and be saved or don't believe and be lost. The choice is yours

morn_sun

06/06/2002 12:39:22 PM

===== "...the only ones who do are Evangelical Protestants, primarily American Evangelical Protestants..." ===== Not entirely so. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod does not subscribe to the doctrine of the Rapture and Millennialism. For a brief statement on it's doctrinal position: http://www.lcms.org/belief/doct-16.html as well as a former LCMS president's statement: http://www.lcms.org/president/statements/leftbehind.asp Rapture and Millennialism places far too much emphasis on prophecy and the End Times, giving the false notion that those who do not have a trusting faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior will somehow be given a "second chance". The Bible, teaches that NOW is the time of salvation.

tmaster1

06/06/2002 12:33:34 PM

[CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST] He was not hiding from God, angiekatie. He was hiding from the Romans, because he did not want to be nailed to the cross again.

tmaster1

06/06/2002 12:31:40 PM

angiekatie: "And he said unto them, 'Why are ye troubled? And why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and blood as ye see me have [DUH!!] And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, 'HAVE YE HERE ANY MEAT?' AND THEY GAVE HIM A PIECE OF A BROILED FISH, AND OF AN HONEYCOMB. ***AND HE TOOK IT, AND DID EAT BEFORE THEM***" (Luke 24: 38-43) Regarding his hiding for fear, recall he was disguised as a gardener. You can find the verse easily. Go on the Internet and pull up an online Bible. Search in the New Testament for gardener.

HEisLOVE

06/06/2002 11:30:14 AM

Christians have scripture to support their position on any number of topics. When we repeat what we read and understand, the critics always come back and say, "God wouldn't say that or do that, that is just man's way." The bible makes it clear, that God does whatever He designs and desires -- His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. But whatever He does, it is good. The Lord is not a Cosmic Killjoy picking and selecting only a few people to love. Jesus is not going to return until all nations have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ -- everyone is invited to partake of the love and goodness of the Lord -- Jesus' arms are open wide just for people like yourself who really don't understand the love of God when He gave His only Son just for you, that salvation is free and open to all -- the only ones who will be cast away are those who reject the love and life of Christ.

vivaldian

06/06/2002 11:22:46 AM

What really peeves me off about all this Rapture nonsense is that it has become so widespread it has got to the point where many non-Christians, sadly but understandably, believe it to be an orthodox Christian belief, when in actual fact it is nothing of the kind. It is a nineteenth century invention, derived from the visions of a Scottish teenager called, IIRC, Margaret MacDonald. It has no basis in either Scripture or Church Tradition. The overwhelming majority of the world's Christians do not believe it - the only ones who do are Evangelical Protestants, primarily American Evangelical Protestants, and even they can't agree on the details. It is nothing but pseudo-Christian gobbledigook. Rant over.

Son-Of-God

06/06/2002 11:06:10 AM

Three things need to be addressed: First, It is a time of trail that comes upon the whole world. However, it is a time where the non-believer will be given one more time to come to repentance. If one repents and accepts Jesus as his personal savior he will be saved. If not, if the person dies during the 7 years of judgement without accepting Christ, that is when his soul will be lost. This period of time is supposed to be dealing with the Jews directly. Second, the rapture is supposed to keep the believers under the dispensaiton of grace out this judgment. Many Christians don't believe in a rapture but I want to tell them to stop bickering about which Christian is right and which one is wrong and focus on saving the lost. If what we say is true, your very soul could be at stake. Is this not something that is worth finding out personally?

EdNutter

06/06/2002 11:02:14 AM

Note to jkopanko: This passage has been around for quite a while. "Fundamentalist evangelicals" didn't make it up. Your primary diagreement is with the Bible. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NLT But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

maltheist

06/06/2002 10:54:10 AM

Angiekatie wrote: I have never heard of maltheism until tonight, but I would call it Satanism. I mean, hating God and calling him a pig. I can't think of anything more pleasing to the Devil. This makes no sense in a world where God actually IS the "devil" (actually where God uses the name "Satan" as a fictional patsy to blame for his own evil acts). God and Satan are one and the same, he's nothing more than the very humanity-deceiving liar the bible (surreptitiously) warns us about, so maltheism can hardly be equated to satanism. (Thus "satanists" who think they defy God by praising Satan are doing God's destructive work, they're no better than those whose God whorship draws us toward Armageddon.) I have no explanation for Mormons. I think they are just as weird as the people who dance around with rattlesnakes. This is because God told YOU to think this way about Mormons and snake dancers, as he told Muslims to think this way about you. And so on and so on. Is it becoming clear yet?

jkopanko

06/06/2002 08:31:15 AM

The sad thing about all this "rapture" talk of fundamentalist evangelicals is the underlying mentality it seeks to sanction as "religious", "godly" and "moral": "God's coming to draw me and my group up into the sky to protect us... while he plays King of the Ant Farm with the rest of mankind, throwing them away to all the hopelessness, misery and horrors that will face them... Praise Jesus for saving me!" This mentality is totally arrogant, self-absorbed, completely unconcerned for the well-being of one's fellow man (much less, "loving"), anti-moral and irreligious. The disingenuous religiouslit and hypocritical zelotry of these fundamentalists in this stance is really quite disturbing: What mindset could possibly be less moral, or godly?

human1

06/06/2002 02:12:56 AM

Am I the only one on the west coast for heavens sake......I'm feeling chatty here......oh well, goodnight all (as if you hear me!) Since no one seems to be here to give me heck over anything, I will take this opportunity to say......I think you are all terrific! I have enjoyed listening to all of you even though many of us are miles apart belief-wise. I love the traits of strength, courage, respect and much more that has been shown in this string. Yes, toes have been stepped on but most often an attempt to mend has followed...and a path has been cleared for us all to share that which we are passionate about. Even the pig god believer...that takes courage, to throw yourself out there, even wrestle with your own anger and frustration...in my view (which could be wrong)I just see him as someone who has been hurt and offended along the way...each one of us has to grapple with our faith, it often takes years for the working out of our faith. Now....goodnight from a lonely chatty H1.

jinglestheferret

06/06/2002 01:59:48 AM

About the second coming of Christ or not. As a Christian, for me it isn't to guess when it will be. But to live life as if were to be today. But then carry on as if it was not yet time. To guess on that time is to say that I know what God has planned. ANd as a popular christian song states, " God is God and I am not." So I will continue on this race until the finish line, knowing that as a Christian I am not home yet. This is one of those things that you just have to file in the "things not to be answered yet file." As a scripture in the bible says, " I will walk by faith not by sight." I am not here to try to change anyone but to take up my cross and follow Jesus Christ.

human1

06/06/2002 01:55:55 AM

abaren, also, do you have kids? I'm just thinking of the common belief that we are born good and sinless...just curious if you have raised any little ones yet. H1

human1

06/06/2002 01:52:15 AM

abaren: I appreciate your thoughts...however, as a Bible believer, I have learned to look at the heart differently. Jeremiah 17:9 says,"the heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure." I have seen in my own heart longings for things which are not for the best. Ours hearts are certainly capable of much good, but they can also crave that which is detrimental to us and others! They can lead us into great regret...has this never happened to you? I could write volumes here!! I will say I think you and I are similar in views of this preoccupation with the end times...even though we follow different faiths. I have never picked up a "Left Behind" book...I will forever be bored with the thought of hearing one more human tell me all the "details" of how it's going to be...no one knows, anyones vision will be wrought w/ error!! These books...while read by several dear friends of mine just don't catch my interest.

human1

06/06/2002 01:27:41 AM

tmaster, sorry for obviously having offended you. You are correct in narrowing down your comments to the fact that I didn't call your theology a cult...it was listed here at Bnet as one. I am not sure what it might be...but have no doubt in saying you are intitled to follow it. Of course...it would not appeal to me, as I have chosen to believe in the Bible after much research, and experiencing God in my own life. I understand where you are coming from...I hear you in the list of things you see as foolishness regarding my faith...but I remain faith-filled toward even the very things which sound foolish to you. I do not think less of you, or that I am in any way "better",tmaster, you and I are the same...created by God, deeply loved and unceasingly pursued by Him...God's best to you.

spiritbride

06/06/2002 01:03:00 AM

No one with any sanity wants the world to end.. Christians who practice a faith of love do not want the world to end.. However, many oppressed people in the world might very well want "the age" to end.. and that is what the Bible refers to.. God's judgement will come as a terrible blow to the earth, however, it will be an act of mercy which will end a world war III senerio.. I am Christain, and Buddhist, and probably a few other things, and would say that Christian are not the only ones who believe in an end time.. I also feel the anger and pain of listening to people who seem to want to be 'right' over wanting people to live long happy lives in all nations of the earth.. lets not forget, it is not the end of the world, it is the end of the age.. "God bless everyone".. Tiny Tim, a Christmas Carol..

vikmas

06/05/2002 11:52:42 PM

angiekatie: Your God seems OK to me. Bless your child, I hope she has a safe and loving life. I havent "attacked" Christians before. But this apocalyptic thing riled me (and alot of other people it seems) up. It is good to know that not everyone is wishing for the end of the beautiful world.

angiekatie

06/05/2002 11:50:09 PM

One more post for vikmas- I have enjoyed our discussion, but I have class in the morning and have to get to bed. Hope you have a good night!

angiekatie

06/05/2002 11:47:26 PM

Vikmas- thank you for pointing that out. I still don't believe that Jesus ever lived in Kashmir!

angiekatie

06/05/2002 11:45:55 PM

vikmas- my idea of a sin is anything that you feel guilty about. If you are ashamed to do it, you probably shouldn't be doing it. I have no explanations for the evils of the world. I know that I am happy with the faith I practice. I find peace through a relationship with God. Next to my daughter, it is what I treasure most in my life. The Bible says to beware of those who try to predict the future and that many will claim to know when the end will come. I just try to think about that when people start preaching hellfire and brimstone. I know where I stand, so I am not worried about it. I think "apocolyptic lunacy" has been around since the beginning of the church, and we're all still here!

vikmas

06/05/2002 11:39:50 PM

Yes, youre right saying "you people" is derisive.

vikmas

06/05/2002 11:34:54 PM

no angiekatie: Jesus (according to the Bible) did not just appear as spirit, he appeared in the FLESH. (John 20:27)

angiekatie

06/05/2002 11:33:08 PM

Vikmas- the pharoah I am referring to was Akhenaten, or Amenhotep IV. He exclusively worshipped Aten, and tried to convert the Egytian population to practice monotheism. Yes, I like worshipping one God. I think as long as people have the ability to think for themselves, they are going to think, believe, and interpret things the way they want to see them. I think when you blame CHristians for lunacy in the world, it is derisive. You referred to Muslims, Mormons and Maltheist. Muhammad was not a Christian who developed a branch of Christianity called Islam. He thought that up on his own. I have never heard of maltheism until tonight, but I would call it Satanism. I mean, hating God and calling him a pig. I can't think of anything more pleasing to the Devil. I have no explanation for Mormons. I think they are just as weird as the people who dance around with rattlesnakes.

vikmas

06/05/2002 11:21:57 PM

what hath monotheism wrought? My idea of a sin is not confined to whatever the Judeo-Christian definition of "sin" might be. Not everyone operates in that mythic universe. Perhaps it is just a reprehensible bad act.

vikmas

06/05/2002 11:18:51 PM

touchy, touchy angiekatie! Have a little fun.

angiekatie

06/05/2002 11:14:04 PM

I have another question for vikmas- How could Christians have been the first sinners? People didn't even call themselves Christians for years after Jesus' death. Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden for sinning. I think they were around long before Christians were. Again, why so much hostility towards Christians? WHy the need to say "you people"? There is no need to be so insulting. Don't "you people" believe that your dead loved ones reincarnate into cows? I don't see why people who choose not to practice Christianity have to be so hostile towards those who do.

vikmas

06/05/2002 11:13:48 PM

Aten, the Egyptian God was not worshipped exclusively. All information surrounding his cult is highly speculative. Is what I am saying derisive? Do you like this monotheistic world with its apocalyptic lunacy?

angiekatie

06/05/2002 11:05:59 PM

tmaster- can you tell me what passage in the Bible you are reffering to about Jesus hiding in fear from God and eating food after his resurrection? Apparently, you have been reading a different translation from me. My Bible says that Jesus appeared to the disciples and a woman(Mary Magdalene, I think), but it was his spirit. His body wasn't in the tomb, but his spirit appeared to certain people. Where exactly are you getting your information?

angiekatie

06/05/2002 11:00:09 PM

Actually, vikmas, one of the pharoahs was the first to preach monotheism. The Jews were second to practice monotheism. I don't think anyone here is trying to blame anything on the Jews. Do Hindus believe in a bunch of different Gods or something? Why do you have so much disdain for Christians?

vikmas

06/05/2002 10:31:22 PM

Man, where is this maltheist coming from? God exists but God is bad, and consciously wishes for humans to anihilate one another? All this lunacy is Christianity's fault. You people were the first to promote your "God" as the only "God", is it any wonder that alternative exclusivuisms spawned in reply? Islam, Mormonism, and now Maltheism! Christians were the first sinners, they turned the universal being into a TRIBAL DEITY.(Do not blame the Jews, who were henotheistic). And you wonder about all this insanity!

tmaster1

06/05/2002 08:57:43 PM

One more thing: Yes, it's a theory that is backed by a LOT of strong circumstantial evidence. But this "theory" makes a LOT more sense than believing that: 1. A man who was supposedly nailed to a cross and murdered, 2. Came back to life, 3. Walked around 4. Hid in fear [a "god" in fear?] 5. Ate food [what need to eat?] 6. Rose up physically, vertically to "heaven." 7. Is now "sitting" on the "right hand" of a being [God] who I always thought could not be bound by dimensionality. 8. Has been there for 2000 years [alive] 9. Is returning IN THE FLESH--this self-same individual--to rule a global Christian kingdom. Believe me, if anything sounds cultish THAT does. It makes more sense to me that Jesus survived the crucifixion [a feat that did happen, as witnessed by Flavius Josephus for his friends], and went on to live a normal life and die a natural death.

tmaster1

06/05/2002 08:52:04 PM

[CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST] Last, human1, if beliefnet posted an article that attributed the theory of Jesus in Kashmir to a cult, then beliefnet did not do its homework at all. I tend to think you're stretching things a bit, or perhaps forgetting, since it's a little difficult to believe that beliefnet would make such a gross mistake. The entry of Jesus to Kashmir was recorded 1700 years ago. If you're interested, get on the web and search for information on THE TOMB OF JESUS CHRIST. Of course, you'll find some information on the two alleged tombs in Jerusalem [the Garden Tomb and Church of the Holy Sepulchre--center of debate by scholars] But in your search, you'll very quickly come across some information that will fill you in [if you're interested]. Beware of guessing, human1--it makes you appear ignorant.

tmaster1

06/05/2002 08:47:37 PM

[CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS TWO POSTS BELOW] Across Asia--from Iran to Kashmir--exist oral and written traditions regarding the sojourn of "Jesus Christ," as Christians know him, throughout Asia after the crucifixion. Some of his sayings are etched on monuments. His arrival in Kashmir is recorded in manuscripts, as well as on monuments, such as the Takhat Sulaiman monument in Kashmir. Now, if you wish to criticize the theory, that's perfectly fine--AFTER you've demonstrated that you know something about it [which you obviously don't, otherwise you would not have made the gross error of attributing the theory to cultists].

tmaster1

06/05/2002 08:46:59 PM

human1, there is no one group that sat down in some basement and "invented" the theory of Jesus in Kashmir. Luckily, ancient historians of Asia wrote about the sojourn of Jesus after the crucifixion. If you're not familiar with it, fine. But you display the same kind of mentality AS the cultist, who, when he hears something he's ignorant of, ignorantly draws "conclusions" based on...what? Absolutely nothing. There have been at least 50 books written on the subject since 1889. Holger Kersten (1986) had nothing to do with a cult. Andreas Faber Kaiser (1978) had nothing to do with a cult. [CONTINUED NEXT POST ABOVE]

angiekatie

06/05/2002 08:44:52 PM

vikmas- I believe that people who commit evil and seek no forgiveness for their actions and continue to engage in these behaviors with no remorse will go to hell. I forgave the man that did that to me a long time ago. I have no control over whether or not he goes to Hell. Just because I have forgiven him does not mean that his sick behavior has ceased. My forgiveness of him will not keep him from going to Hell. What I was referring to was religious groups who murder or commit other crimes for no reason and say it is God's will. I am referring to the Baptist group you mentioned and the other group you mentioned. I am referring to Hitler and the KKK. I also am referring to anyone who claims to be a Christian or any other religion and misleads people for their own personal gain and uses the guise of religion to do so. That, to me, is the worst form of evil and I believe there will be harsh consequences for those who do such things and show no remorse and seek no forgivness.

tmaster1

06/05/2002 08:41:02 PM

Human1, if you have time, I'm going to answer you thorougly. 1. No advertising has been done here. I did not mention any website 2. The theory of Jesus in Kashmir predated any modern cult, and also has no ties to any particular religion. It's an independe theory. The documents were recorded by Buddhist, Muslim and other historians, including Chinese. That is why I always give the name of the documents. When you, human1, are not familiar with a subject, you have no right to make sweeping and baseless charges. You portray your utter ignorance of the subject. [SEE NEXT POST ABOVE].

vikmas

06/05/2002 07:52:25 PM

tbutterbaugh: the reaaon "prophecy reading" declined after the Enlightenment is BECAUSE OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT.

vikmas

06/05/2002 07:50:40 PM

angelkatie: I'm sorry to hear what you went through. I would not associate what happened to you with ANY religion--it is pure evil. But what's this about hell, arent you supposed to forgive those harm you?

maltheist

06/05/2002 07:38:06 PM

Tbutterbaugh said what I wrote "sounds more of a message from Satan not God." Satan is just a pseudonym the God you whorship uses when he wants to pin his actions on a patsy. (Like Emmanuel Goldstein was a fictional patsy for Big Brother in Orwell's 1984.) The Bible lists explicitly the repulsive destructiveness of your God, rationalizing it by saying we should accept HIS perspective on what's "good" rather than our own. What sort of warped thinking leads you to think it's WRONG to "see things as man does, not as God does?" It seems YOUR biggest problem is that you have defered judgement, passing the RIGHT to judge right/wrong onto an alien incorporeal beast - who does not know what it's like to be a living being, yet claims he's qualified to judge and punish us! Why do you believe this pig who has lied to everyone since the dawn of time, whose very raison d'etre is to cause strife and divisiveness amongst humanity, ending of course in his glorious goal, the Armageddon you actually seem to want?

angiekatie

06/05/2002 05:14:38 PM

vikmas- I think if you read the history of every religion in the world, you will find injustices committed by people who claim to follow that religion. I am very well aware of the hypocrisy that is committed every day in the Christian faith. My father was a minister for several years. I thought that church was supposed to be a haven from the world. I learned very quickly that evil exists in church, too. I was also molested by a supposed church "leader" when I was three. Believe me, I am very well aware of the atrocities committed by people claiming to be Christians. I feel that those who use their faith as a front to commit evil acts will have a special place in Hell reserved for them. NO, vikmas, even if I wanted to, I could not live in an "ivory tower." While there are those who do good things in ALL faiths, there are just as many who are evil.

angiekatie

06/05/2002 04:54:14 PM

tbutterbaugh- While I realize that Jesus will come "like a theif in the night", I choose not to dwell on it. I will say that I would prefer to have passed when the end comes, but I believe that God will protect those who follow him. I haven't read any of the "Left Behind" books because I personally get very depressed thinking about what COULD happen, especially for my baby daughter. Phillippians 4:6 says, "Don't worry about anything, but pray about everything....". While I am prepared for it, I choose to focus on maintaining my personal relationship with God, because I know that no matter how bad things get in this world, I will be in a better place some day. I think that Christians should always be prepared for Christ's return, but I don't think we should constantly read end time prophecy into every little thing that happens.

vikmas

06/05/2002 04:50:33 PM

angiekatie: Fine, they are "not of your flock" but thats an ivory-tower evasion of the whole thing. travertine: thats a fine theology. These people are modern day pharisees. The problem is the American Protestant evangelicals are arguably the most powerful people in the world, they can do much harm.

vikmas

06/05/2002 04:47:56 PM

Regarding Paul: The pastoral letters of Timothy and Titus are fraudulent interpoilations, according to generally accepted Biblical scholarship.

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 04:35:15 PM

tbutterbaugh writes, They [Left Behind series] allow me to picture somewhat in my head what things might be like in the world IF the prophecies in the Bible were to unfold just as they always have in past History. Reading them can be valuable if they are used spiritually in a way that works against the reader's negative mental conditioning. For example, if reading them spurs one to commit to begin performing actions that "hold back the Four Horsemen", then they've served a valuable purpose. If, however, they are used spiritually to simply reinforce negative mental conditioning, then it would've been far better never to have read them at all.

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 04:24:18 PM

People on this post sound like what the people must have sounded at the time Jesus was predicted to come to Earth. Just as hard as it was for them to believe the Messiah would be alive the same time as they were. Why is it so hard to believe or accept the fact that a person may actually be alive during this time to see it all come to fruition? Don't get me wrong I also understand that in this life time it may also be something I never see or experience for as has been said only God knows the time.

angiekatie

06/05/2002 04:05:16 PM

VIkmas- If you will read a post by human1, you will see that many people claim to be CHristians, but are not. Just because people label themselves as something doesn't mean it is really so. Haven't you heard Muslims on the news talking about how Osama bin Laden has "hijacked" Islam? I can assure you that as a Christian, I abhore constant doom and gloom talk of the end times. I don't search the Bible for clues because as I said in an earlier post, only God knows the time and place. If you don't like what we believe, fine, but quit being hateful, telling people to get a life and whatever. I don't think anyone here has tried to force Christianity upon you, so get over yourself.

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 04:01:04 PM

I know exactly why I read them. it is not a mystery. They allow me to picture somewhat in my head what things might be like in the world IF the prophecies in the Bible were to unfold just as they always have in past History. Would you argue that the prophecies in the Bible which have been fulfilled, have done so in anything less than a literal sense?

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 03:58:28 PM

About the time of the End, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation in the midst of much clamor and opposition. -Sir Isaac Newton

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 03:53:19 PM

tbutterbaugh writes, I agree w/ you abaren, as I have read all 9 books [of the "Left Behind" series] and anxiously await the 10th. Interesting. I think you need to pause and reflect on why you find the series such an attractive read. "Be mindful of your thoughts, Anakin."

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 03:37:58 PM

tbutterbaugh, I agree with you that Revelations has some level of ambiguity in it with respect to whether all the physical world is destroyed or by Christ at the end of history. Hence the typical use of 2 Peter 10 in end-times interpretation to try to unambiguously "seal the fate", so to speak, of the physical world. You also say, So then tell me again, what is wrong w/ the idea of getting rid of a sinful world? Ultimately, because the world is not sinful, and so does not deserve annihilation. This does not mean, of course, that a lot of sinful activity doesn't occur in the world. It does. However, this sinful activity is a consequence of the world's conditioning, not its fundamental metaphysical nature. Because its metaphysical nature is not evil and sinful, its annihilation is not warranted.

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 02:45:21 PM

[part 2] In point of fact, the reality is not the case. The core at the heart of man is good, not evil, and always remains so. Evil proceeds out of conditioning, not out of metaphysical nature. Trust your heart, human1, not your head, and you will be immune from "left behind" theology, and all such similar delusions.

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 02:45:02 PM

human1 writes, I am curious about you though...you seem to be able to recognize the "untruths" and twists...how open are you to what the Bible actually does say? Well, I was born and raised Lutheran, so I'm very familiar with the Bible and the Protestant perspective on it. I have always been open to the spiritual truths contained within the Bible. I also recognize the spiritual errors of the Bible, the most important one being the claim that all the imaginings of the heart of man are evil from his youth, that is, his fundamental metaphysical nature is completely and utterly evil and sinful. Totally depraved, if you will. This belief is the hinge upon which all Protestantism, evangelical or not, turns. [continued in part 2]

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 02:41:17 PM

I agree w/ you abaren, as I have read all 9 books and anxiously await the 10th. So then tell me again, what is wrong w/ the idea of getting rid of a sinful world? By the way the physical world is not predicted to end. A study of Revelation shows that at the end of the Great Tribulation there will be a literal millenial Kingdom set up by Jesus on the Earth.

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 02:37:56 PM

Travestine I would love to see your response to the comment "Make no mistake though, 25% of the Bible is prophecy and of that, 50% of it has literally come to pass." So are you to tell me that God will not keep his promise as he has in the past and that He will not fulfill those prophecies yet to come?

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 02:25:51 PM

tbutterbaugh, The "Left Behind" series is the Lindsey-LaHaye theological interpretation of Revelations and Daniel placed within a attractive fictional format designed for widespread distribution of the theology and maximum spiritual effect. It's success in helping foster an apocalyptic psychological environment within the evangelical Protestant community, an environment that encourages acceptance of the proposition that the "sinful" physical world will shortly be annihilated by the returning Christ is nothing short of brilliant.

human1

06/05/2002 01:40:17 PM

tavestine, sorry for butting in...but I think my question to you became buried. I am curious to know if you feel the the books of the Bible written by Paul are truthfully God's inspired word, or actually error filled writings apart from the truths of Jesus.

travestine

06/05/2002 01:32:06 PM

This is why fundamentalists and mainstream Christians have such a hard time communicating - if you don't have a basic understanding of the context in which Jesus lived, spoke and acted, how can you possibly claim the "truth"? Statements like "But even Jesus said that not only is the Bible God's word, but also that the Bible is the word of God." demonstrate that you still don't understand that (1) Jesus was not a Christian; (2) the Bible was hundreds of years away from conception at the time Jesus lived; and (2) Christianity in the form we know it today was not in existence then and therefore cannot be held up as the model to which Jesus made reference. Pretty basic stuff.

travestine

06/05/2002 01:31:55 PM

All of you who spend your days poring over the Bible looking for clues to the "endtimes" commit a similar sin - why not take some of that time and use it to improve the lives of those amongst you. We have the equivalent of lepers and beggars among us today - those suffering from AIDS, the homeless, etc. Spend some time with the "lesser of these" and you won't need to worry about the rapture. The Kingdom has already arrived, people, it lives within each of you TODAY.

travestine

06/05/2002 01:31:35 PM

tbutterbaugh: Back (briefly) to our exchange re: Bible literalism Another news flash: Jesus never said the Bible was the word of God, since the Bible DID NOT EXIST at the time he lived! He spoke of the law of the Hebrews as passed down through Moses and the prophets. At the same time that He said He came to fulfill the law, He also said that His message was that His people were to worship God, not the law. He came because the Jews of the age were so caught up in obeying every jot and tittle of the "law", that they had rendered themselves hypocrites (a word that WAS used by Jesus) by sinning in pride at their ability to follow God's orders, yet did not show God's love to those they themselves deemed "sinful".

THICH72

06/05/2002 01:12:11 PM

It's interesting to me that although there is agreement among most Evangelicals that the Bible is the "inerrant" word of God, there is so much disagreement in how His words are interpreted. Some predict Rapture and Armageddon in the future, some say such predictions are part of the past. Seems to me that no matter how "infallible" the Bible is, its many interpretors sure aren't!

human1

06/05/2002 01:08:57 PM

I know...I know...I'm supposed to be working out. Just checked in on this line one last time.

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 01:07:48 PM

You say,"Those who put God before the survival of human beings are traitors to the human race who would help a vicious mongrel pig God in his efforts to destroy us." This only shows me that you do not know who God is, especially if you think He is out to destroy us. How does destruction of human beings = evarlasting peace by the side of our creator in His kingdom? Is what your truley afraid of when it comes to the end times, death and even more imprtantly the thought of death = nonexistence?

human1

06/05/2002 01:07:33 PM

You have created for yourself things you wish to believe. There is nothing in what you state that displays even the most remote understanding of the Bible. You add to the untruths you purport...stereotyping and generalization. I would easily tell you at any gathering that Jesus is the only way to receive a relationship with God...and the Bible is the only true Holy book, all others are the concoctions of man rebelling against the Bible. I am not ashamed of the truth....the truth is not my prized exclusive possesion....it belongs to any who will look into it and discover it. Your problem stems from never taking the time to truly look into it....and casting out false assumptions because of what you fear may be true....if you seriously wanted to learn about it, you would go learn about it rather than start hurling falsehoods around offensively.

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 01:03:46 PM

What you say sounds more of a message from Satan not God. If you believe that God exists then you must also believe that Satan does as well, correct? And if he does then it would be natural to assume that these are things he would pursue not God. Malthiest I see that your biggest problem is that you see things as man does and not as God does. Even you should know that His ways are not our ways. And yet you still make your claims, backed by no fact that there are contradictions in the apocalyptics of Armageddon. Please Enlighten myself and others to what those contradictions are my God hating (or is it fearing) friend.

maltheist

06/05/2002 12:54:09 PM

Still no one acknowledges the contradiction inherent in the apocalyptics of Armageddon. Do those who quote the bible understand the consequences of the "prophecies" they recount? Their all-powerful omnipotent God "predicts" to us that a horrible devastating destruction WILL occur during these end times he speaks of. But what is a prediction from such a God if not a will to make it so? God clearly WANTS Armageddon to happen, which is why he tells each piddling religious group a different story, to ensure that they eventually annihilate each other so that GOD can achieve the orgasmic joy of total destruction. Anyone who sees the God of the bible as a "god of peace" is clearly deluded as God's own word totally contradicts this. God is a deity of divisiveness and destruction, he creates nothing, he only divides and destroys. Thus he tells each group of whorshipers -- Jews, Christians, Muslims -- that they are the chosen ones, that they have it right and all the others have it wrong, that he is on THEIR side.

maltheist

06/05/2002 12:53:53 PM

Watch any of the "ecumenical" gatherings of people from various religions, and notice their reactions when each is asked whether they REALLY feel that they have it right and the others have it wrong. Out of one side of their foul God-whorshiping mouths they say "No, of course not," but what they are really saying (and this is clear from their fumbling nervousness upon saying this) is "No, of course not, I would never admit that publicly." It is time to fight the divisiveness that God brings upon us, to stop making excuses and blaming ourselves for all the conflict. Clearly God deliberately divides people by sending each group conflicting messages encouraging conflict. Which can only result in the Armageddon that he (as evidenced by his own words) clearly wants! Those who put God before the survival of human beings are traitors to the human race who would help a vicious mongrel pig God in his efforts to destroy us.

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 12:51:02 PM

Murdering fellow human beings is not something that can be pinned to any group in the world for every group in the world has committed this atrosity. Are the armed forces given some privelage to killing say over a murderer. Killing is killing no matter what the reason. And it is wrong.

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 12:45:26 PM

How did the "Left Behind" series of books get notioned as what we believe to be literal interpretation of the Bible. First of all it is Christian Fiction not Christian Fact. As far as prophecy goes if interpreted literally w/ speculation or date-setting you will find it to be very descriptive of the events to come. But there will be those who will date set or speculate as to who the Antichrist will be and they will be wrong then the there will be those who pick up on their wrongness and use it to label all of us. Make no mistake though, 25% of the Bible is prophecy and of that 50% of it has literally come to pass. To think that the rest which is yet to come will not come in the same fashion is naieve to say the least.

human1

06/05/2002 12:42:57 PM

vikmas, what you describe has also been demonstrated in our nation by "Christians" murdering doctors who practice abortion. The red flag for me in what you state and seem to believe, is when you dignify these extremists by entitling them as Christian. Christians are known by their fruit...these extreme atrocities are not the fruit of Christianity. Now I must go get busy finally...time to work out...just in case it is my turn to hold back one of the 4 horsemen. hehehe

vikmas

06/05/2002 12:33:24 PM

For all of you people who take great umbrage with my assertion that fundamentalist Christianity is murderous, get a life! I did not say that individual evangelicals were murderers (there are plenty of nice evangelicals) or that any church consciously advocates murder, but rather that the pattern of bigotry and exclusivism (against non-fundamentalists, including non-fundamentalist Christians) and the insistence on the absolute literalness of the Bible; WILL BY DESIGN MAKE PEOPLE COMBATATIVE, BELIGERENT AND MURDEROUS. This has amply been demonstrated in Rwanda (where one million people died as a result of missionary misbehavior) and more recently in Northeast India (where Baptist ultras have imposed martial law). This end time scenario makes people more murderous (as my Shinto friend says, it makes them Ravenous) so that Protestants atleast unconciously are looking to PRECIPATE THE END!

human1

06/05/2002 12:04:21 PM

abaren: I don't know what circles you are moving in....what you are tuning in to, but you are a bit offensive in your over-generalizations and stereotyping. I enjoy hearing your beliefs...but casting this superiour understanding that you have regarding my community is hardly truth talking! You are becoming guilty of that which you seem to hate. I am an evangelical protestant....I have been in fellowship with thousands of fellow believers over the years. I have personally run across two people who are extremists in this area...and a few more on Christian radio. I recognize it for what it is worth...not much... and then avoid it. Exagerations and untruths are what must stop...both regarding the end times, and also regarding your accusations of my community, that is unless you enjoy being AS offensive as they are.

human1

06/05/2002 11:52:46 AM

God gives us some great glimpses into the end times...He displays more of who He is in doing so. The truthful realities of His great wrath are revealed....but not without also vividly displaying His offering of enormous hope to all, mercy, and grace....His generous plan on how to avoid the coming wrath. I believe it is given for a very simple purpose. To remind us why we should be focusing on all that He left us here for....to HELP others come into a relationship with Him "while it is still called today". It was given to instill in us a sense of urgancy!.... not to broadcast some arrogant superior inside knowledge...not to ask us to go waste our time digging for more precise details which He chose not to give.

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 11:46:36 AM

tbutterbaugh, The point is that (Lindsey-LaHaye) end-times theology is currently what's "in the driver's seat", so to speak, within the evangelical Protestant community. I'm sure it's true that many in the passenger seats don't particularly like where this theology is taking your community. But the bottom line is that the ardent adherents of this theology are ones who have set the "framework of the debate" among evangelical Protestants regarding the imminent end-of-the-world. In this way they drive the discussion and so move evangelical Protestants as a group towards first, an acceptance of, then a yearning for, finally a hunger for, a hastening of the return of Christ and a violent end to this "sinful" physical world. Instead of engaging in whatever action is necessary to "hold back the Four Horsemen", it's "amen, come Lord Jesus! Bring it on!" Your religious community is sliding into psychosis. It needs to stop. Now.

human1

06/05/2002 11:44:34 AM

Well, my friend...I don't see lots of harmony in our outlooks regarding picking apart the apocalyptic texts. I have read of the end and will continue to. I have heard believers tell me precisely how it is all unfolding...revealing great amounts of time expenditures on casting the lead roles, etc....the antichrist is Saddam H, no it's Bill C, no it is the pope. The great whore is Russia...nope, the USA, now it is the Roman Catholic Church. This is all nothing but self centered pride, self exhaltation, "I'm superior in my grand knowledge" type behavior. It has and will continue to prove itseld wrong. The time would be better spent mowin' your neighbor's lawn, driving your sick friend's carpool, making dinner for someone feeling low, etc. Being salt and light...not being superior.

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 11:27:45 AM

particularly in America, the apocalyptic texts remained what they always had been: a vital source of doctrine, reassurance and foreknowledge. Ordinary believers continues to poer over their pages and to look expectantly for the events they found predicted here.

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 11:26:07 AM

Why would people, who otherwise take other portions of Scripture, be tempted to relegate secondary importance to so much of the Bible being that 25% of the Bible is Prophecy? Paul Boyer has given great insight when he notes: Down to Enlightenment, biblical apocalyptic was read w/ seriousness throughout Christendom, at all social and educational levels, for the clues it offered to God's divine plan. But skepticism and rationalism gained ground in the 18th century, the academic and popular views of these texts gradually diverged...At the popular level

human1

06/05/2002 11:22:39 AM

I'd also agree that kingir must be using something other than the Bible for his "none left behind" theology, as it is not compatable with what is clearly given regarding the end. Again...packed with anger, threats, arrogance. I am curious about you though...you seem to be able to recognize the "untruths" and twists...how open are you to what the Bible actually does say?

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 11:18:32 AM

Even as we speak we see posts by abarenboshogunvi, who does nothing more than to prove exactly what I said before regarding people taking the extremists views and attaching them to the views of others as ourselves. Bu the way thanks for the words of encouragement regarding NC. I feel they will get worse seeing as we are both in a discussion group regarding the Farse of Evolution. So it will indeed get interesting. And no nothing you have said has ever offended me. I feel comforted in the fact that I have others like you in here posting. Would be hard to do if I was alone.

human1

06/05/2002 11:14:34 AM

abaren: I hear you. Sadly there is a small dose of truth to be told in AFC's post...but it is overtaken by the arrogant assumptions that she has the inside scoop on just when/how and coupled with angry threats. Her passions are for truth, but she has become angered at all us idiots abounding, which seems to have driven her far away from her intended effectiveness for God. She offends....you are an example of that truth. Believe me, I too, have offended some...but I am most often sorry for it and try to repair what I may have injured....I take God that seriously. Don't wish to be that clanging sounding gong in one's ear.

human1

06/05/2002 11:05:06 AM

tbutterbaugh, mornin'...you must be weary after last nights rounds w/ nc! That is one areana I have not had an urge to enter lately...hat's off to you. I just feel here that we must be able to laugh at ourselves a bit...hope you weren't offended. I tire from the endless walls built by those who purport to know so much more regarding proghecy than the Bible truly states. You are aware that my passion is for God, His Son, His Holy Spirit, and His Word....I have made myself available to be part of His plan if and in any way He chooses to use me. I just feel great sorrow when "Christians" choose knowledge over love...especially when their knowledge is handed down man made speculation with obscure and peculiar twists of interpretation, stemming from self pride and self exhaultation. How many do you think have truly been saved into eternal life with our Lord from that?! It is a form of condemnation that for me is neither appropriate nor effective.

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 10:55:00 AM

Here's are the eagerly expressed words of another evangelical Protestant, AFC_member, in the current discussion: Let me caution you, dear people, that time is rapidly expiring. I would not be surprised if things all come to a conclusion before this decade passes. After all, from the confirmation of the covenant which many believe will allow a sharing of the temple mount between Jews and Muslims, or whatevers, and the battle of Armageddon will be just seven years. This is June 2002. It is not hard to imagine that with the pace at which things are currently progressing that it is possible all may be over by 2010. Be ready, for this is your warning [and AFC_member's threat]. If you ignore it, your blood is on your own hands. Psychotic thinking, evangelical Protestants. And it needs to stop.

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 10:43:35 AM

human1, BTW, your hunch last night was in fact correct. The Rapture did indeed occur yesterday evening, around 10:15 PM PDT. We've both been "left behind". Not much left to do now but wait for the appearance of "Nicolae". :-)

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 10:38:57 AM

The problem that us literal interpreters face is that there are those in our camp who insist in date-setting and improper speculation. I have tried to make the case that such approaches really conflict with the principles of consistent literal interpretation of Bible Prophecy. Even though there are some vulnerable to criticism, this does not justify many of the false characterizations of some of our opponents. Instead they often work very hard in taking examples of the extreme and making them out to be the norm in representing our beliefs and their outworking. They often delight in putting the worst face possible on our views and often wrongly implicate with extremist views those within the mainstream of our tradition.

tbutterbaugh

06/05/2002 10:30:18 AM

It is to be expected that those who do not interpret the bible literally would disagree w/ those of us who do. It can be proper and honorable to sincerely disagree w/ another Christian on the basis of interpretation. I believe that this should be done on the basis of our differences in the inderstanding of the biblical text and honest dialogue should focus on these issues of biblical interpretation. However, some adopt ridicule and sarcasm, similar to the mocking secularist, in an attempt to gain an advantage in the disagreementor to win the approval of others listening to the dialogue.

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 10:17:28 AM

[part 2] Evangelical Protestants fear being "left behind" and then destroyed by Christ because, on some level deep within themselves, they still have doubts regarding their standing before God. The ardor with which they embrace (Lindsey-LaHaye) end-times theology is a measure of these doubts.

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 10:17:13 AM

human1, The second quote is taken from a personal conversation I had with an ardent evangelical Protestant. If you need a piece of corroborating evidence, look no further than kingjr's words (and their eager expression) in this discussion: "I believe when Jesus comes there will be no left behind. Because those who don't accept him will die by the glory of his coming." If you need more, just spend some time reading what evangelical Protestants are saying about the imminent return of Christ and the destruction of this sinful, physical world. Particularly note the yearning, the ravenous hunger, behind this expectation. The first quote I take credit for, and is an accurate description of the behavior of Christ in Revelations in role of "the Destroyer". The title is cheeky, I admit, and is meant to shock evangelical Protestants and others into a real awareness of the spiritual nature of (Lindsey-LaHaye) end-times theology. [continued in part 2]

human1

06/05/2002 10:14:36 AM

lileva: I appreciate much of your post. Not sure we can know precise details on all that is to come, but rather we are motivated to live as living sacrifices to God for His plan and purpose...knowing the end will surly come. When you quoted Jesus from Matthew 19:30, He was not teaching there regarding His coming, so I am curious how you apply this verse in the way you have, and respectfully ask your thoughts.

kingjr

06/05/2002 09:46:41 AM

can you give some verses that say jews will be caught up first. I know there is a text that says the dead will be caught up first. Then also can you give a verse that says they will be a 7 year tribulation? thanks.

lileva57

06/05/2002 09:01:41 AM

Isreal is Gods first people,& born again Christians are last&when Jesus comes to get his people ,he said the first shall be last and the last first.Some will be gone, (in the air-before the 7years of tribulation)& some will have to go trough this 7 years & then be took after. The first shall be in heaven with Jesus a marriage feast for 7 years,and will come back in the 2cd coming with him when he steps down on the Mount of Olives in Isreal.The jews will finally see & realize that Jesus is ,King of Kings,Lord Of Lords.They will be saved,& after will start 1000 years of peace on earth & those who made it trough the 7 years will live here,and those who came with him in the 2cd comming will live with Him( Jesus) in a city that God made on earth & we will live be with him.After the 1000 yrs. He will distroy this world ( not the earth but all what was man made) & then Judgement to all poeple Great and small, Eternity We the Just shall be with (Jesus)and the unjust , cast into a lake of fire forever.Amen

followyourbliss

06/05/2002 08:43:06 AM

"When you are as old AS I, young man, you will know ther is only one thing inthe world worth living for, and that is sin." Lady Speranze Wilde (1821-1896), mother of Oscar Wilde Good Morning All !!

Zero-Equals-Infinity

06/05/2002 08:07:54 AM

"The most beautiful and profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the foundation of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is inconceivable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom, as the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive form - this knowledge, this feeling, is at the center of true religiousness." - Albert Einstein

Zero-Equals-Infinity

06/05/2002 08:07:24 AM

"The religion that is afraid of science dishonors God and commits suicide." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

kingjr

06/05/2002 07:10:39 AM

Oh yeah, and I believe when Jesus comes there will be no left behind. Because those who don't except him will die by the glory of his coming.

kingjr

06/05/2002 07:03:06 AM

Why are there non Christian people posting here. If you hate the concept so much, why spend so much time on it. Is this homework or something.

Tom44438

06/05/2002 03:30:53 AM

What’s all the brouhaha? When the rapture happens, only Billy Jack and four other people are leaving this earth. No car crashes; no planes or trains out of control. No one will even notice.

spiritbride

06/05/2002 01:53:04 AM

By the way, Christians do not support violence of ANY kind, by ANY body

spiritbride

06/05/2002 01:38:44 AM

It seems to me that several posts here are really ignorant of the real scripts that are constantly played out in a history of war and corruption that repeat over and over again. You may all mock and think you can change the prophecy by some human virtue, however, you cannot even change one hair from white to black by taking thought. Jesus is far from dead and the next world war will be your fault not his..

human1

06/05/2002 01:26:11 AM

Guys!?.......anybody out here?????? Come on......this isn't funny......!!

human1

06/05/2002 01:20:19 AM

Okay...it's only 10:15...I remember destinctly not hearing a sounding trumpet......Hello!?.....oh,no...you don't suppose..... I've been...... left.........NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

angiekatie

06/05/2002 12:59:32 AM

Vikmas- what exactly are you talking about "Christian Bigotry"? In the U.S, I have a right to practice whatever faith I choose. So do you. If Christian bigotry is so entrenched in our system, then why are there schools (in California) that have mandatory classes on Islam, but "God Bless America" has suddenly become a taboo phrase? Prayer is not allowed at school; T.V. shows bleep out "Jesus" in certain areas; Christian leaders are constantly attacked for stating their beliefs; Certain songs are not allowed to be sung at school functions because they "might" be Christian? Explain to me where the Christian bigotry is.

angiekatie

06/05/2002 12:59:31 AM

Vikmas- what exactly are you talking about "Christian Bigotry"? In the U.S, I have a right to practice whatever faith I choose. So do you. If Christian bigotry is so entrenched in our system, then why are there schools (in California) that have mandatory classes on Islam, but "God Bless America" has suddenly become a taboo phrase? Prayer is not allowed at school; T.V. shows bleep out "Jesus" in certain areas; Christian leaders are constantly attacked for stating their beliefs; Certain songs are not allowed to be sung at school functions because they "might" be Christian? Explain to me where the Christian bigotry is.

human1

06/05/2002 12:42:10 AM

goodnight Vikmas!

angiekatie

06/05/2002 12:41:34 AM

This is for vikmas- I find it amusing that you pointed out that Christians are critical of other faiths. Every single one of your posts has been hostile towards Christians. Of course we think we are right. We wouldn't practice Christianity if we didn't. Would you be a Hindu if you thought it was wrong?

human1

06/05/2002 12:40:02 AM

also...thanks kathyHL for offering more on your thoughts...I still would like to hear what the "Christian program/package" entails. I am just curious about what you have been lead to believe.

vikmas

06/05/2002 12:38:10 AM

Good Night to you! Bless your children.

vikmas

06/05/2002 12:32:21 AM

angiekatie: Christian Bigotry=Human Rights Violation. If it wasnt so entrenched in our system, most people could clearly see that Christian bigotry is actually a violation of non-Christians' human rights. Racism wasnt overcome overnight. But it was eventually overcome! Have Faith!

human1

06/05/2002 12:27:41 AM

also, thanks for calling me a kid! That was truly a thrill for me and brought great laughter from one of my children. All the best to you!

angiekatie

06/05/2002 12:27:21 AM

Cont... SInce so many of you can quote the Bible, I'm sure you will see it is full of imagry, symbolism, and parables. Only God knows when the end times will come, not even Jesus. I'm so glad that all you people who aren't Christians are so knowledgeable about what we believe. I am also glad that you can interpret the Bible better than we can. Christians don't want anyone to die or suffer during the Tribulation. It is YOUR choice. I have a couple of questions for the person who said that Jesus' tomb is in Kashmir. When exactly was Jesus in Kashmir? If he was crucified in Jerusalem, why would they bury him in Kashmir? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If you want acurate info on the life and death of Jesus, read the Bible.

human1

06/05/2002 12:25:48 AM

vikmas...I wish you no ill will as well...certainly! If we cannot discuss our beliefs and the differences therein....well....I just think we should be able to share that which shapes our soul, and makes us who we are. But hopefully without stepping all over each other! If I have done so...I should probably go to bed now, I have just enjoyed Bnet today...haven't been here in a long time.

human1

06/05/2002 12:19:52 AM

abaren: Are you serious?! With all respect,I am trying to know whether to laugh at your joking fun, or really get worried about you. You post some interesting quotes, and give Jesus(I assume you mean Jesus..of the Bible) with an interesting title. You fail however to grace us with the source of both. Are this stuff your own...respectfully, or are you actually relaying them to us from a resource? Will you also help me understand how a Christian who is saved by Jesus...would then fear being destroyed by Jesus?

vikmas

06/05/2002 12:13:38 AM

human1: You seem like that nice kid who lives in a really bad neighborhood. I have no ill will towards you, I wish more Christians would take responsibility for Christianity's ills rather than proclaiming their own indivdual "perfection". God knows that YOU GUYS have no problem criticizing questionable practices and behaviors in other world religions.

angiekatie

06/05/2002 12:10:19 AM

There are several reasons that the U.S. supports Israel: 1. We have the largest Jewish population in the WORLD. 6 million Jews live in NYC alone; 5 million live in Israel. 2. We have a large, powerful Jewish lobby. 3. During the Cold War, Israel was our only ally in the region. Syria, Iran, and Egypt were all receiving aid from the Soviet Union.

human1

06/05/2002 12:06:53 AM

tmaster---this advertising you do here regarding the site you mention....Bnet has included this manmade theology in an article here about a year ago. The article was on new religious movements, and equated them with cults. I'd be questioning the folks leading you into this belief system. vikmas...have you ever read the passage in the Bible that reveals that to God(Jesus was also God)a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day? Time to us and in this finite age is not the same as time to God and in eternity...we need it for the marking of time as this age passes...it serves a different purpose. I just mention it because I see you struggle in many posts over Jesus comments and some of His followers comments...displaying a lack of true understanding there.

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 12:06:02 AM

[part 2] For whatever reasons, evangelical Protestants as a group are now under some kind of extreme stress that is driving them to embrace a view of existence that is not just pessimistic, but deeply, deeply psychotic. Terrified of being "left behind" to face Christ the Destroyer, the evangelical Protestant community is rapidly sliding into mass psychosis. Given that the U.S. government, at the highest levels, is now directly under this kind of spiritual influence, the time are very, very dangerous indeed. "Behold, I now bring death, and shatter the physical world" -- Christ the Destroyer "We no longer care if we live or die, this sinful world must be punished, once and for all. Christ the Messiah now!"

abarenboshogunvi

06/05/2002 12:05:38 AM

vikmas, Evangelical Protestants are not simply sanctioning murder. Their elaborate end-times theology (much of it invented over the past 30 years by two men, Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye) sanctions the annihilation of the physical world and all of its inhabitants, human and non-human. This annihilation is to be accomplished by global nuclear, biological and chemical warfare, brought about through political and spiritual manipulation of Jews by evangelical Protestants (God's chosen end-times instruments) in order to hasten the return of Christ in his end-times role of "the Destroyer". [continued in part 2]

human1

06/04/2002 11:58:49 PM

Well, while some of what you say has a bit of truth mentioned. I cannot agree. I'm curious about this "christian program" requirement you mention...I don't follow a required program! Perhaps someone or several have fed you some lies...or legalism that have no doubtedly been offensive. I have been a Christian for many years...I have never met another Christian who wished for anyone to suffer the end times. I have innumerable times sat in the presence of Christians however praying consistantly for people to be lead to the truth which would spare them from what you mention. God longs that none should perish...He calls any who follow Him to have the same longing. If you are a Christian, and you don't have this longing...then you may not be a Christian!

vikmas

06/04/2002 11:56:22 PM

It is hard to escape the apocalyptic nature of Christianity. Recall Luke: But take care of yourselves so that your hearts are not overcome with wild living and drunkenness and the cares of this life, and that day come upon you unexpectedly, like a sprung trap....Be alert at all times, praying to have stregnth to flee from all these things that are ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE. Jesus thought the end of the world was happening soon! Christians have been waiting two thousand years for the failed apocalyptic. HE IS DEAD. He is not coming back! Get over it.

tmaster1

06/04/2002 11:52:36 PM

Read about THE TOMB OFJESUS CHRIST. It's important. Goodnight.

tmaster1

06/04/2002 11:51:21 PM

Incidentally, I'm not necessarily looking for people to adopt the traditions about Jesus in Kashmir. But at least be open to the general subject of the HISTORICAL Jesus. The Kashmir theory is a subset of the general issue of the historical Jesus. We can all now very clearly see that, for whatever reason, knowing who Jesus REALLY was is extremely important, for cosmic reasons that I cannot fully understand, except through the rhetoric of religious ideology, which I refuse to use here. I find it mystically fascinating that the two places associated with Jesus: Jerusalem (where he was born, or near where he was born) and Srinagar (where some believe he died) are among the nuclear hotspots on earth today.

KathyHL

06/04/2002 11:49:47 PM

From what I understand, hardcore Christians believe that those who don't go along with the Christian program will be left behind when the "rapture" happens, and will have to live with the diseases, violence, natural disasters, and also the despotic behavior of the "antichrist." IMHO, a person who really loved all of humanity would want *everybody* to escape this fate, not just the people who buy into the Christian package. It's like feeling indifferent towards people who lose their homes in a fire, because they didn't buy fire insurance.

human1

06/04/2002 11:41:30 PM

KathyHL, I am a Christian, some would probably call me a nut! Please share with me how it is that I want most people on earth to die in horrible ways. I can tell you that from here inside me....nothing could be further from the truth. You claim to know all about me though, so I would love to hear this truth you have on me.

tmaster1

06/04/2002 11:38:59 PM

I agree. The U.S. should place sanctions on all the parties involved. Good idea. I was harping more on Israel, but I think your idea is much better.

KathyHL

06/04/2002 11:19:05 PM

I agree with tmaster1 that Jesus is dead, although I'm not sure I agree with all of tmaster's details. I also think that the Middle East situation is way out of hand. IMHO, we (the U.S.) should refuse to help *any* Middle Eastern country, including Israel, until they can stop the fighting and negotiate problems in a non-violent manner.

KathyHL

06/04/2002 11:16:18 PM

All the stories about the "rapture" and the "end times" were part of the reason why I de-converted from Christianity. The nuttier Christians want the world as we know it to end -- they want most of the people on earth to die in horrible ways -- just to fulfill their stupid prophecies. That's one of the most selfish things I've ever heard in my life. If they really loved their fellow humans, they'd pray that "armageddon" was just a myth.

tmaster1

06/04/2002 11:11:49 PM

Christians have made a PROFOUND error, and seem to wish to drag us all straight to nuclear holocaust. Jesus is dead. And this is recorded in many Asian documents: The Rauzat-us-Safa (Persian) The Grugtha Thams Chand (Tibetan) The Negaris-i-Tan-i-Kashmir The Wajees-ut-Tawarikh The Bagh-i-Sulaiman Ikmal-ud-Din The Tarihi-i-Kabir-i-Kashmir The Ain-ul-Hayat The Bhavishya Mahapurana (Sanskrit--mentions his arrival in Kashmir and his meeting with King Shalivahana) I tell you, unless Jesus is allowed to rest in peace, we're gonna have some stuff on our hands, believe me. HE'S DEAD. Go on the Internet and you'll read about The Tomb of Jesus Christ. So Jesus needs the U.S. to protect Israel, otherwise he won't feel safe coming back? WHAT!!??

tmaster1

06/04/2002 11:06:35 PM

Read Deborah Caldwell's article a number of times, and take heed. I'll repeat this again, no matter how long it takes. This Jesus business is dangerous. The man is DEAD, as I've been stating. His mausoleum is located in the Kan Yar section of Srinagar, Kashmir, India. The name of the mausoleum is the Roza Bal. His actual casket lies under that large structure. (For pictures, search for Roza Bal at a search engine). He is NOT returning. These Evangelicals are influencing US foreign policy based on the idea that a dead man--Jesus--is returning. I mean, this is insane! They're saying that the U.S. has to protect Israel so that Jesus can come back. So, Jesus can't "return" unless the U.S. protects Israel? I mean, DAMN! People, WAKE UP! [PLEASE READ NEXT POST ABOVE].

human1

06/04/2002 10:40:31 PM

salv now: I cannot completely follow you and found your scriptures to be out of context...and missing the points being taught. Matthew 11:11-12 has nothing to do whatsoever with what you posted. Were you trying to mention a different verse? You cannot simply open the Bible, take your eye to a sentence or two in the middle of a passage and claim to know the teachings there...respectfully I am curious of how carefully you have looked into that which you attack. As for Bhuddism...I have not investigated there much at all. I'm curious about your beliefs regarding life after death.

vikmas

06/04/2002 10:28:29 PM

salvation now: these fundamentalists are like robots, how can you live inside of a two thousand year mythology? Its like theyve been taken over by a body-snatcher, possesed. I bet they have all sorts of pretty visions of "Jesus" and "God". The Buddha was more rational, he told everyone to be a light unto themselves, to question everything and to be here now.

salvation_now

06/04/2002 10:17:17 PM

People say Bhuddism is about abstainence. It is true but it doesn't say that you should live like a poor. Bhuddism teaches to be well off without causing harm to other and not let wealth take you away from People. You should earn wealth without getting obsessed by it.

salvation_now

06/04/2002 10:05:54 PM

What world needs today is Science , little common sense and Little Bhudda in their life. Today, peace loving world are strong and so we can accept Peaceful religion. Judge people by their action not the way they look. Becuz not everything that glitter is Gold.

salvation_now

06/04/2002 10:01:12 PM

Human1: If u r talking about Biblical god then he is the Jealous and revengeful god. I too spend much time in Bible like u. Take a look at this: Genesis: (The Flood) Chap 6 verse 2 thru 4 the Sons of God saw that the daughter of men were beautiful and they married any of them they choose. So how many sons do biblical god has? Mathew: Chap 10 ver 34 thru 36. Jesus says, don't think that i came to bring peace to the earth! i came to bring trouble, not peace. I came to turn sons against their fathers, daughter against their mother etc. etc. I was shocked to read all these. Further According to Jesus, Secret of His Kingdom is: Mathew Chap 11 ver 11 thru 12 "Everyone who has something will be given more, but people who don;t have anything will lose what little they have. Evil or son of god... I leave it to you. I would request u to read bible complete and with clear heart. u will get the answer. May Lord Bless U.

human1

06/04/2002 09:05:42 PM

fyb..I thankyou and agree. I pray God richly blesses you....my belief is that any question you ask me...you can ask Him and He will eagerly show you all you want to know. Yes...I do believe God is Just and will require justice...He has revealed this truth of Himself...without it He could not be trustworthy, there would be no standards. But equally He has revealed that He is Love, you are right in that area...He is fair, trustworthy, and offers freely His grace, mercy, restoration and forgiveness. Bless you and yours.

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 08:58:50 PM

Thanks for you thoughts human1. The dialoge we've had, I believe, is a good example of how two people who do not agree on everything, can still hold a civilized conversation. And in the process find out that, in the end, we are all very much alike. Peace and Love to you and your family.

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 08:55:56 PM

Bottom line for me is God is total, complete Love. Complete Love accepts, no matter the choices made. Complete Love has no conditions. I have a problem reconciling God, as complete Love, and God as judge and jury of some extreme right Christians.

human1

06/04/2002 08:55:46 PM

I'm not sure I have arrived at great answers in the supporting Israel question here. I am reading, praying, and studying...hoping to come to my landing place. I will forever hold the Jewish people in my heart...In Romans, God reveals that He has allowed them to be blinded to the truth of Jesus in order for the eternal promises of His blessings to be made available to people of all nations...therefore He asks us to treat them with high regard and humility...and never arrogance. I have learned enough to know how to live my own life...daily...how I need to love all people, but when it comes to these world events..I'm still working through the issues for a Godly perspective.

human1

06/04/2002 08:49:32 PM

God has revealed much about hell, but left specifics untold. He has revealed enough to allow us to see it is not something to pursue. God has said that He is love....I have seen through history, and in my own life, that He proves it over and over. Hell is the eternal separation from God...from the source of all love and all that is good. Your image of it is pretty accurate and close to what is revealed in the Bible. It is not an ignorance is bliss, nor a laughing matter however as many hope. All knowledge of your choice is known and the deepest regret is froever felt...think of how regret feels in our bodies even here and now.

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 08:44:56 PM

The solution you speak of, does it include the idea that supporting Isreal and Jewish people at all cost? I'm by no means implying that I don't support Isreal as a state or the Jewish people as humans, I'm only asking if an all out acceptance is really what is needed. I imagine that I'm a person who questions all generalizations and as such, tends to get caught up in long debates like these....

human1

06/04/2002 08:41:01 PM

fyb, your story is my story too. I have posted regarding it here before as well. I am so happy for you that you found the way to forgiveness, I know that freedom too.

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 08:39:07 PM

To answer you question honestly, I do not believe in hell as a place where you go to spend eternity after death. I believe the concept of 'hell' is a time and place where no love, no forgiveness, no Light has been allowed to enter. That is hell to me.

human1

06/04/2002 08:37:55 PM

One truth in Christianity that many overlook is that God has no interaction with that which is unholy, unclean...which is sinful. We...humans....are sinful! There is a divide between us and God. People who have not received forgiveness for their sins, and been declared holy don't need to worry about what God might say...He has no interaction with unholiness. Now, I'm sure that sounds completely offensive!! The truth is however, that He loved His creation enough to do something about that problem. He offers the solution....but it is up to us to receive it.

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 08:36:17 PM

As a child, I was sexually abused by a close family member. It took a long time, but I did forgive this person. They never asked for my forgiveness, they probably don't realize that I remember every bit of what happened. I see this person on a regular basis, I hold absolutly no ill will towrds them and in fact I really hope they can conquer the issues that have plaged them there whole life. If I, a human being created in the image of God, can forgive that, then I would be sorely disapointed in any God that could not forgive the same and more or his Children.

human1

06/04/2002 08:19:12 PM

Well, I'm not saying you'll like MY answers... but I can offer more. In no way do I expect you to believe them! I do however have a question for you...do you really believe hell exsists? If so, what do you believe it is like?....I'll go further with the 2 kids analogy...let's suppose it came down to the end, do you think they both should receive the same inheiritance? One had a life long loving relationship w/ you...walked with you, included you, gave love,care, and respect to you...received it from you as well. The other wouldn't even read a letter from you much less pick up the phone? Would she expect to recieve an equal inheritance? She wanted nothing to do with you in the days when she had the chance...now would you intrust to her a reward of all your best?

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 08:06:54 PM

So that child, who has turned away, in your eyes has made a wrong choice. It is a choice, I agree that love cannot be force fed on anyone. To me, it would seem only logical that at the end, when that child dies and is brought before God, God would then shouw you what and where you made wrong choices. He would light the way, you would be Enlightened. Not left in the gutter to suffer, or sent to hell for all eternity. What's loving about that? Where is the forgiveness?

human1

06/04/2002 08:03:54 PM

pardon my spelling...I'm also coloring with my 4 year old!

human1

06/04/2002 08:01:51 PM

You had the capacity, and desire to bless both children with all you have. You are however not offered the opportunity. If the rebellious child would return...you would restore and bless her. but if that is not her choice, would you go out and try to force her to have that relationship with you? Have you ever loved anyone because they told you you had too?....God loves us enough to allow us to have what we choose, yes He pursues, and always longs for each child. He paved the way to easily have a relationship with Him...but He will not force it. He will give us what we desire, even if it is separation from Him...even for all eternity, after death there is no more chosing.

human1

06/04/2002 08:01:39 PM

fyb: I truly feel the passion behind your questions. I once held the same answers as you. What I discovered was the Bible held the clearest picture. Picture yourself having 2 children. One of which is very close to you...hears your words of wisdom and warning. (I'm picturing you as a loving...nonabusive...truthful parent!)The other child decides for her own reason she wants nothing to do with you...doesn't want to talk to or listen to you...wanders off to live separated from you. (cont)

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 07:55:36 PM

Personally, I'm fed up of people conducting violence in the name of God, period. No matter the religion they claim to be a part of. To me, it goes completely against the point. So does the contents of this article. To support a country and it's people because it is written that those who support the Jews will be blessed and those who don't will be condemned, sound allot to me like "I'll love forever, if.." Jew, Christian, Muslim whatever... How could a God that accepts all his Children then say I'll bless only those who support the Jews and Israel, no matter what they do to others... How can that make sense?

human1

06/04/2002 07:39:18 PM

vikmas...sounds like you are totally fed up with people conducting violence in the name of Christianity. You should be. We all should be. What especially angers Christians about it is the fact that it is clearly not Christianity at all, and could never come from the teachings of Jesus. Same can be said of the heretical acts from all world "religions". So the problem I have w/ much that you write, is you "throw out the baby with the bath water". If you don't like Christianity, than offer more about why, while sticking to it's truths....not the examples of people abusing the teachings of Christianity. Can you not see those situations for what they truly are? Respectfully--H1

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 07:38:51 PM

Sorry I didn't realize I'd been answered. I do believe that God would accept everyone of his children into Heaven. I believe he would especially accept those who had rejected him. If you had/have children, and one would turn away from you, at the end of that childs life, would you leave him alone?

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 07:31:59 PM

human1: I'm truly happy that you have come away with such wonderful peace in your life from your beliefs. However, I'm still not quite clear on why/how God could not accept you has his child and yet want you to redeem yourself to him? I'm not trying to instigate, I'm trully interested in your responce

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 07:27:37 PM

followyourbliss you are correct and I would hold any institution to the same accountability as you do, but for those who do it in the name of I would also not recognize as being true christians, for what they have is a religion not a relationship. If they had a relationship w/ God I could guarntee that what act they committed would not have occured. As far as not having a relationship w/ your father not making him any less your father your right it doesn't, and yes God accepts all His children, so based on that very statement you made if they reject God then they also reject that which He offers them. So if they reject Him and His gifts, if they were to die do you then believe that they have a place in heaven?

human1

06/04/2002 07:24:41 PM

fyb, that can truly be your belief. We can all make up any beliefs we wish. We can even create God to satisfy our own selfish wishes and then if we want we can go so far as to make up a new religion out of our made up beliefs....happens all across our planet!! I do believe in something which I did not make up...and I recognize that is my choice, but I have never known greater joy, peace, love, understanding, and forgiveness before coming to my beliefs. I admit I approached the Bible skeptically...but after 13 years of study and examining the origins of many other religions, I find the Bible to be fully testable, true and reliable. So yes, I came to the place called faith...and departed from my own made up, wishful thinking, style beliefs.

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 07:21:20 PM

vikmas: Not to mention the mess that has been, and in many ways still is, Ireland. Acient history, recent pas or present. Question all of it.

vikmas

06/04/2002 07:17:10 PM

followyourbliss: I agree with you. Accountability should apply to ALL institutions, not just religions. But I'm talking about the Baptist terrorists operating in northeast India RIGHT NOW. See the thread "Chistian terrorism" under "Hinduism and the World" in the Hinduism section. I am also talking about Rwanda.

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 07:16:08 PM

human1: Simply because I have no realationship with my Father does not make him any less my Father. How can God not accept you as his Child but want yuo to redeem yourslef to him? In my view God accepts all his Children, whether they accept him or not.

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 07:12:40 PM

We can certainly, at the very least, questions the institutions who wholeheartedly backed up the execution of countless Crusades in which so many were tortured and murdered. Any human being who doe NOT question ANY such institution, not what it's origins may be is simply a sheep being slowly led to slaughter.

vikmas

06/04/2002 07:11:43 PM

That sir, is an exquisite form of hypocrisy. Take comfort, read your Bible in your air-conditioned home, muse on the meaning behind those beautiful worlds, while millions of people are being MURDERED in the name of Christianity.

human1

06/04/2002 07:10:01 PM

followyb: A possible answer to your question of asking how one could say that not everyone is God's child,and also say that one is concerned for everyone to have eternal life.....Christians see that many are not God's child, because they refuse to have the relationship with Him that He offers...they remain however genuinely concerned for those who choose to reject God, just as God himself remains concerned.

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 07:06:13 PM

I will not take responsibility in something I neither participated in nor condoned. Please, Christianity committed no more genocide than a gun commits murder. Like I said you cannot blame Christianity for what people do in the name of it anymore than you can blame blacks or any other group for what a few do.

human1

06/04/2002 07:00:50 PM

Also, Travestine, just a guess....would you also conclude that the Biblical books written by Paul are error filled, and contrary to Jesus?

human1

06/04/2002 06:59:10 PM

I wouldn't say the people in the article are trying to manipulate a thing! They are looking at todays events watchfully and with consideration of what they see written in the Bible. I think people are filled with fear, and one coping mechanism is to jump to conclusions and false impressions of what the article states. I saw pretty clearly a recognition that todays situation may not at all be "the end", and also an admission that we cannot know....so how from that perspective do you derive "manipulation"....just how much decision making power to you feel the people mentioned in the article really have?!

Goyboy

06/04/2002 06:48:57 PM

Regarding the article - In essence the Christians mentioned in it want the USA's foreign policy to conform to their religious beliefs. I sense a violation of the 1st Amendment. Furthermore, it appears to me as though these Christians are trying to manipulate God into producing the Second Coming. I have no problem with supporting the state of Israel so long as Church and State are kept separate, so long as people don't try to manipulate God.

vikmas

06/04/2002 06:44:32 PM

tbutterbaugh: Christianity does not exist in the ABSTRACT. It exists in its followers. Now you could go out and start a new church every week (I just met an "independent" baptist) because your pissed off with Catholics or Presbyterians or God-knows-what-else, but thats just an EVASION OF RESPONSIBILITY. Take some responsibility for the murders man!

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 06:33:07 PM

I would like to also apologize to everyone foe calling them jackasses and saying the things I did in my outburst earlier. The 'TRUE JACKASS' was me. I let my raw emotions get the best of me and I should not do that, so agian I apologize to each and everyone of you.

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 06:27:24 PM

vikmas: Did you read the article you pointed me to? Why is it that when someone does something in the name of Christianity it atomatically becomes the belief of all Cristians. It is like saying that because a black person steals then all blacks are thiefs or that because the Holocaust was caused by white Nazis then all white people believe they are superior. Christianity is not the cause of the terrible things in the world but it does often become the scapegoat by not only the people who do not claim to be Christian or by those so called Christians perpetrating the offense. If Christianity is the cause of the world's ills then how do you explain Islam's suicide bombings? Just so people know there is a differnce between someone who claims to have religion and someone who has a relationship w/ God. Do not make the mistake of grouping the two together.

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 06:20:56 PM

Travestine: But even Jesus said that not only is the Bible God's word, but also that the Bible is the word of God. To know what God says you look to the Bible, but the reverse is just as true, to know what the Bible says you look to God. Reading the Bible in its literal context is only a small part of the process. A person also has to understand that it was written in various literary forms (i.e. history, poetry, prophecy and even using normal figures of speech) Even these are only the tip of the iceberg in understanding the Bible. The true Revelation and Key to the Bible come not from man, but from God. The Bible was not written in Aramaic then translated into Hebrew and Greek then English, it was written using Hebrew and Greek w/ some Aramaic. And when studied properly the Bible never takes away from God, but adds to the understanding of God.

vikmas

06/04/2002 06:03:27 PM

travestine: Then what exactly is "your" Christianity. You admit that there is not much to know about Jesus and that the Council of Nicea's Bible was a propagandist selection. How do you view the end of the world? What is salvation for non-Christians?

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 05:59:11 PM

To all - read below: my_ring_now 6/3/02 9:14:29 PM Jen, not everyone is God's child. I guarantee that one. And what you call "fundies" are actually concerned with everyone's salvation, even yours. Oh, and one more thing. There will never be peace and/or unity. How can you say, in the same breath, that not everyone is God's child, and then say that you are concerned with everyone's salvation??? Again, I must be missing some fundy point, because the seems like a ridiculous statement to me!!

vikmas

06/04/2002 05:55:53 PM

tbutterbaugh: Here are a couple of sites on Christian caused genocide (for Rwanda) http://mediafilter.org/CAQ/CAQ52Rw2t.html Go to the Hinduism and the World board under Hinduism and read all about the Baptist terrorists loosing violence on northeast India. You will find many Christians who are doing something about it.

travestine

06/04/2002 05:54:35 PM

Part 3 (and the end!) As a minister, I understand this - when we worship the Book and not the Man, we miss the point entirely. God sent us His son, we created the book later to help us understand. Jesus first, Bible second. The law as set out in the Bible is a tool and a valuable one, but Jesus came to bring us the context in which the law exists - the love of God for all His people. Jesus himself never set down a word on paper - His message was the experience of His words. My belief is that He recognized that if He had left His teachings written down, we would have spent the rest of our days poring over them for His exact meaning and missed the point of the experience of His love in our hearts, souls and minds (much as we do with the writings of his followers - how much more so if HE had actually left writings!)

travestine

06/04/2002 05:54:17 PM

Contemporary texts were discarded out of hand if they were deemed to conflict with what the Council felt was the "correct" interpretation of the gospel as they saw it. Even the order in which the writings were placed was done not to reflect the order in which they were written, but to tell the story the way THEY wanted it to be understood (hence Revelation appearing at the end, when it is actually a much early text). There is more to understanding the Bible than simply reading it. If you don't know where it came from or how it came to be in the form in which we recognize it, you can't claim to understand it to a degree that allows you to dictate the way in which it is to be read "literally".

travestine

06/04/2002 05:53:52 PM

"They read them for their literal meanings, not allowing their own or anyone else's interpretation to get in the way of what is actually being said." These are your words. I say you claim the key because you seem to claim the version you quote as the accurate translation of scripture. Translation IS interpretation. Words must be placed in a context for them to make sense, as not all languages follow the same rules of tense, gender and sentence structure. Interpretation is indivisible from translation, hence subject to personal prejudice. I am saying it is an impossibility for "anyone else's interpretation" NOT to get in the way, since unless one is able to translate from the original Hebrew or Greek (which is a translation of the original Aramaic), whatever you are relying on as "literal" has already been adulterated by someone's interpretation. The composition of the Bible itself came as the result of the prejudices of the Council of Nicea in the first place.

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 05:35:37 PM

travestine, do not put words in my mouth. I never said I hold the key. Interpreting the Bible in a literal sense is there whether I point it out or not. It is the personal interpretation of the Bible that has caused division in the world, not literal translation. And no, the Bible was not interpreted, it was translated and no matter what VERSION you look at you will see undeniable unity across ALL of them. As a minister I am surprised to hear you say such things.

human1

06/04/2002 05:35:29 PM

jko: I would have to respectfully disagree with some of your thoughts. I feel you insinuate that Christians hold to some arrogant, exclusive,"me and my group" can be saved mentality. For me..."me and my group" includes every human ever born. God longs for every single soul. Ironically though....Christians are then accused of bringing great evil when trying to share with people how to have a personal, eternal, relationship with their Creator. First....we should be silent about our beliefs (which is an expectation that we not fulfill what we have been asked to do in our faith.)then we are called exclusive!! Which is the true preference.... that we be silent about the truth....or that we share it so that anyone who wants to receive eternal life may do so? Are we not also entitled to be true to who we really are?

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 05:29:52 PM

jkopanko: my posts were not towards you but the discussion in general. vikmas: how do you figure that "We have to take fundamentalist Christianity seriously becasue fundamentalist Christianity murders" That is the most ignorant stement yet. Point an incodent out where this occured. By the way if all of you look around, America is not going in the direction of fundamentalist christianity or christianity period. It is going in the opposite direction as we pass laws that further seprate christianity from society. As we sue people just because they want to include prayer at a graduation or public event. Even worse we pass laws that tolerate everything, but Christianity. It is not becoming a majority, but a minority. Just look at the posts here in this discussion.

travestine

06/04/2002 05:28:47 PM

tbutterbaugh: You speak about "literal" interpretation of the Bible and seem to think that you hold the key to the absolute truth of Biblical interpretation. You say that we are not to accept anyone else's interpretation of the Bible, only the "true" and "literal" meaning of the words. News flash for you: you quoted the Bible in English - the Bible WASN'T WRITTEN IN ENGLISH! Whatever version you quoted was interpreted by someone - a human, fallible being with his/her own prejudices. Unless you stood at the elbow of the original author, you WILL NEVER KNOW the true and literal meaning of scripture. All we have is our own filter of prejudices, suppositions and beliefs. Recognize, please, that yours are no more valid than mine (a liberal, feminist Christian minister who does not believe or preach endtimes or the rapture).

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 05:23:57 PM

They saw themselves as simply 'believers' who made a statement of faith. if anyone wants to run this in the ground, ofcourse they can. I personaly respect anyone's statement of faith, though I may or may not agree with them. I don't see them as somehow protesting the Catholic church when they do. simply a statement of faith...

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 05:23:47 PM

To all; Someone once said, (once upon a time,) 'there are truths to be found in all faiths'. I believe that is true. That statement, ofcourse, does not suggest they are all true, just because they may have one or more beliefs in common. The same is true in the reverse. If one or more is false, that does not mean they all are. Am I playing a child's game here? YES! Why? Some here need it spelled out to them! QUIT playing with semantics, titles, history, whatever it is you are playing with. The term "Protestant" does indeed discribe those who "protested" against the Catholic beliefs of their time. It has come to incorporate a far greater span of belief than that now, in modern times. Many groups who are associated with the heading, 'Protestant' had their beginnings in the last 100 years or so.

vikmas

06/04/2002 05:18:26 PM

We have to take fundamentalist Christianity seriously becasue fundamentalist Christianity murders. There is no greater bigotry than religious bigotry. And the scary thing about America is how this bigotry is not only sanctioned but institutionalized, though perhaps the secular government mitigates it somewhat.

jkopanko

06/04/2002 05:17:20 PM

tbutter, Huh??? I'm guessing you were addressing me because you repeated some of my phrasing in what you posted directly afterward(?) If you want to try to criticise someone's speech, why not try doing it by actually addressing what they say is some form--rather than launching bizarre, ad hominem attacks which do not relate in any way to the content of any posting? Just a word of friendly advice.

carmelcoatedqueen

06/04/2002 05:10:35 PM

What I don't understand is why all of us blindly follow the Bible. We act like it is the end of all books on religion and how to treat our fellow man. There have been and will always be divine people (Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed etc...) who come here to show us how to live and treat one another. Within decades of their leaving this earth, chaos begins again. Their good teachings end up bastardized by groups with ulterior motives. Most of us could not tell anyone who wrote the Bible or how old it is. There is no telling how many times it has been changed. For us as "God-loving" people to follow a path that has been so obscured and then have the audacity to denigrate anyone who doesn't believe as we, is pure lunacy. Look at the facts. We worship from a King James Version of the Bible and none of us really knows who King James is. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 05:07:55 PM

If you've heard enough of us 'slamming' the fundies, then maybe you should all do a little house cleaning. Perhaps if they didn't seem to sound so... shall I say ridiculous, the rest of us wouldn't be so quick to slam.

followyourbliss

06/04/2002 05:07:46 PM

Xristocharis - Read what your fellow fundy albannach wrote below: 6/4/02 8:51:55 AM We can't really trust God to take care of everything, so we have to help make prophecy happen correctly. The ancient church fathers had very clear teachings on the apocalypse but none of that matters anymore because we evangelicals know better than them. So what if the Palestinian Christians are descendents of the early Christians? They should be happy to lose their homes and lives for what Israel wants. When we stand before God's throne, He is going to judge us according to whether we support the political nation-state of Israel."Well opinionated my good and faithful servant"... Please feel free to explain to me, and to everyone else, how these staments should interpreted, since we seem to be missing a point somewhere. Anyone who says to me that God cannot be trusted to take care of everything is saying what exactly?? Should we really be taking this person seriously???

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 05:02:46 PM

I would begin to try and explain the reasoning behind what Fundamentalists/Evangelicals and anyone else who believe what they belive, but the fact is that all you hypocrits would not even give it a chance to hear their side of the story. Instead you will still post your ignorant, arrogant and hateful remarks toward that which either you don't understand or are afraid to believe in because of the potential accountability it will hold you to. Remember this that when it is all said and done it will not matter what you believe because you will still be held accountable.

jkopanko

06/04/2002 04:13:01 PM

The sad thing about all of this "rapture" mania hyped by fundamentalist evangelicals is the mentality it seeks to sanction as "religious", "godly" and "moral": "God's coming to draw me and my group up into the sky to protect us... while he plays King of the Ant Farm with the rest of mankind, throwing them away to all the hopelessness, misery and horrors that will face them... Praise Jesus for saving me!" This mentality is totally arrogant, self-absorbed, completely unconcerned for the well-being of one's fellow man (much less, "loving"), anti-moral and irreligious. The pseudo "religious" zelotry of these fundamentalists in this stance is really quite disturbing and frightening.

vaaxu1

06/04/2002 04:12:26 PM

What a load of misquided fools. To think so many problems today boil down to over-literalism of the Bible by people who should know better.

Nancy7

06/04/2002 04:05:49 PM

By the way, "End Times Fiction" is being sold at Wal Mart. Thank you Wal Mart for showing both sides of this issue.

vikmas

06/04/2002 04:05:43 PM

One neednt rely on the hearsay of the revelation fantasist to deduce the failure of fundamentalist Christianity. We can go to Jesus himself: "And then he we send forth his angels and he will gather his elect from the four winds, from the end of earth to the end of heaven...Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place." This is sad but true. Jesus thought the world was coming to an end SOON. It did not. He Failed.

Nancy7

06/04/2002 04:03:31 PM

A great book to read is "End Times Fiction" by Gary Demar. Speaking as a mainstream Christian I see plenty of contradictions in our Bible. Please all you conservative Christians, think for yourselves. Don't just listen to "Selective Readings"

Nancy7

06/04/2002 03:52:54 PM

The end times is not in the Bible. It is taken way of of context to believe that a God of peace and love would want this to happen. Read the first paragraph of Revelations "What soon must take place" When is soon two thousand years later? The temple was destroyed by Rome at that time. It was for "that" time that John wrote Revelations in 100 AD. By a man called John,who was in prison. I doubt that it was the disciple John since the average age at death was 35, and it was still only 45 years 50 years ago.

Xristocharis

06/04/2002 03:42:25 PM

I know I'm going to get slammed and called a fundy, but I have heard enough slamming against the idea of Jesus Christ as Judge. Since Jesus Himself said that He will return to judge. John the Revelator wrote that Jesus would come to reign and judge. The Creeds of the Church say, "He will come to judge the living and the dead." It has been the expectant hope of 2000 years of Christianity that Jesus the Messiah will return and judge the world ending this world of wickedness and ushering in the world into everlasting peace. While some evangelicals seem to be anti-physical, believing the physical world is going to be destroyed forever. Many of us do believe in the Scriptural and Historical belief in the "World to Come" The Resurrected Creation, a New heaven and a New earth, where God lives among His resurrected saings, He will be our God, we will be His people. -Jon

vikmas

06/04/2002 03:39:28 PM

If you have no genuine spirituality (or meaning) in your life, then naturally you will yearn (ravenously?) for "end times". The historical Jesus himself was a failed apocalyptic. He thought the end of the world was coming "imminently". The whole history of fundamentalist Christianity is an intertwined chain of farce and hate. Does anyone remember the Millerites? This is just another episode in the endless comedy.

maltheist

06/04/2002 03:24:19 PM

It's about time we placed responsibility where it belongs. God WANTS Armageddon to happen, he fosters violence between humans with his own words to ensure that it does. Surely the events of the last year would assure any reasonable thoughtful person that this is so. Remember a few months ago when a poll showed that most Americans believe that Muslims in general do not share the same values and attitudes that JudeoChristian westerners do? What do the results of this poll prove, if not that, indeed all these whorshipers of God share the same values and attitudes: those of exclusion, hatred, violence, and destruction, that will surely lead us to the Armageddon that God WANTS... unless we work together to put an end to his filthy reign.

maltheist

06/04/2002 03:20:25 PM

Some "god" these people worship. He can't even make his own prophecies come true, he needs his sheep to convince governments to enable them to happen. What's misunderstood here is the whole nature of God and Armageddon. God "predicts" this awful occurrence, "warns" us all about its imminence. An almighty omnipotent God PREDICTS an occurrence? Hell, no, he causes it to come about! He WANTS Armageddon to happen, he encourages it to happen by telling each piddling religious group (Christian, Muslim, and Jew) that he is talking to THEM exclusively, that he is on their side exclusively, leading them to the barbarities they commit IN HIS NAME. Armageddon in all its destructive "glory" is exactly what this God wants to see happen. And yet fools whorship him as a "saviour" who would "save" us. All he wants from us is to feed on our whorship and destroy us all in the end for his orgasmic delight.

god_is_in_the_tv

06/04/2002 03:12:59 PM

You are mistaken. Read some history. History is written by the victors.

idbc

06/04/2002 03:08:13 PM

Look, not too long ago, the Jews were generally called "christ killers". Now the are our "elder brothers". Call me a cynic(and I am)but I think since they were so disappointed with the outcome of Y2K, they are just egging the Jews on to precipate Amarageddon.

abarenboshogunvi

06/04/2002 02:33:40 PM

The responses of evangelical Protestants here reveals the deep yearning, or better yet, ravenous hunger, that they now have for a hastening of the return of Christ and an end to the physical world. In their minds, at least, Christ the Redeemer is finally leaving the stage and a new actor is beginning to appear: Christ the Destroyer. "Behold, I now bring death, and shatter the physical world".

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 01:14:46 PM

M't:16:2: He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. M't:16:3: And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? M't:16:4: A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. Literal interpretation of this scripture seems pretty clear to me.

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 01:10:34 PM

A true fundamentalist/evangelical person does not pick and choose passages in the bible to fit their own agendas. They read them for their literal meanings, not allowing their own or anyone else's interpretation to get in the way of what is actually being said. It is those who interpret the Bible the way they or someone else interprets it who pcik and choose what scriptures will best suite their needs.

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 01:09:11 PM

Most of you set here and accuse Evangelicals/Fundamentalists of hatred and verything else you can think of and yet not one of you who do so really understands what it means to be either. Yet in all the hatred you claim these two groups to have you do nothing more than to shine as the hipocrits you are. If you knew anything about these two groups and anyone who exemplifies what they are about instead of the ones who give it a bad name you would not speak as you do, but instead you see and hear what you want to hear, which is anything that you feel only agrees w/ what you think you already know.

tbutterbaugh

06/04/2002 12:57:17 PM

Accept the "end times", deny the "end times", ridicule the evangelists/fundamentalists, side w/ them or do whatever your little heart contends, but the reality is that in the end there will be no denying the "Truth" for any of us. What we believe or think we know will not change what is or what is to be.

abarenboshogunvi

06/04/2002 12:54:14 PM

Brigid writes, Are they [evangelical Protestants in the U.S. government] getting ready to do something stupid? Not stupid. Psychopathic. And the answer is basically yes. "Gentlement, the missles are flying. Hallelujah!"

brigid

06/04/2002 12:39:55 PM

You know? If I had a dollar for every time some fundamentalist predicted the end of the world, I could probably make my next house payment with it. The scary thing is that there are a lot of fundamentalists in the right wing of the republican party (who by the way don't seem to believe in Republics). Are they getting ready to do something stupid?

hesterdink

06/04/2002 12:33:51 PM

All I have to say...Is look up your redemption draweth near and you are going to miss the greatest event in human history!!!!!

vikmas

06/04/2002 12:26:17 PM

I agree with the previous postry. The Jews are essentially mascots in this scenario; it stinks of antisemitism. Like fundamentalist Christianity itself this eschatology is just another legitimized bigotry.

abarenboshogunvi

06/04/2002 12:15:36 PM

You're all missing the point of Deborah Caldwell's article "the Rapture Factor", which is summed up in this sentence: Essentially, says Beliefnet columnist Richard Land, a Southern Baptist leader with close ties to the Bush Administration, evangelicals support Israel because they believe "God blesses those that bless the Jews and curses those who curse the Jews. That is to say, evangelical Protestants now both view and treat Jews as their own personal mascots, whose presence brings them good luck. This "mascotization" of the Jewish people by evangelical Protestants trivializes Jews and holds them in "genial contempt" as comedic figures in a grand cosmic vaudeville show that's now in the final scenes of the last act, in which global nuclear, biological and chemical warfare is the means by which the return of Christ is hastened. Play final coda. Fade to black. Roll credits. It's psychopathic. And it needs to stop.

heatseeker

06/04/2002 12:03:15 PM

Just as the zealots in Jesus time completely misunderstood the nature of Jesus mission, there is a good chance that the zealots of our time are misunderstanding what the "second coming" will entail in in our time. It is possible that, if Jesus were to come tomorrow, most of those who claim Him would miss it.

sorrowful_mysteries

06/04/2002 12:02:32 PM

I wish I could understand what is so attractive about a theology filled with future predictions of destruction and hatred. The heart of fundamentalism is the theology of exclusion: the adherents believe what they believe exactly because it makes them "better" than the people they don't like, and gives them a liscence to hate. In the Christian varity of fundamentalism, what's not attractive about getting zapped off the planet right before God unleashes every sort of violence and terrible act imaginable upon those you don't like?

charm007

06/04/2002 11:43:38 AM

At any rate, what is more important than: "The End is nigh" is that your end may come sooner. Best to live everyday as though it is your last day, but also that you may still have many years left. But for the grace of God go I.

THICH72

06/04/2002 11:39:04 AM

Theological hogwash. I am wearied by the bizarre constructs of fundamentalist eschatology, with its narrow historical analysis and selective bible usage. People who believe in this stuff seem to have a sick passion for the events of the world that point towards the so-called "endtimes". I wish I could understand what is so attractive about a theology filled with future predictions of destruction and hatred. I don't really want to believe in a God who operates in this way.

vikmas

06/04/2002 11:28:50 AM

This country has to be the last where such lunacy is taken seriously. Hasnt the rest of the Western world discarded fundamentalist Christianity, even Christianity itself? It is disturbing how much political power and money the fundamentalists have here in America.It is an interesting study in group psychosis. The Israelis (who are unabashedly secular) take the fundamentalist money and laugh(softly) behind their backs.

jschlosser

06/04/2002 10:45:40 AM

1920 - League of Nations gives Britain mandate over Palestine and Transjordan and France a mandate over Syria and Lebanon (LAND OWNERSHIP WAS NOT DEFINED BY THE OWNERS OF THE LAND AS THE WEST DEFINES LAND OWNERSHIP - SO THE BRITISH DECIDED THAT NO ONE OWNED IT AND CONFISCATED IT - MY NOTES) The British Authority in Palestine was preparing the country for the creation of the Jewish national homeland. The mandatory authority introduced the Woods and Forest Ordinance in 1920, which was designed to confiscate lands that were largely utilized as grazing grounds by the Bedouin community and the rural population. 1922 - League of Nations ratifies the declaration of the state of Israel and appoints Britain to rule Palestine 1936 (approx) - Jewish and Arab guerilla fighting begins to break out 1939 - British issue a paper restricting Jewish immigration into Palestine. Israel looks to the US for support

jschlosser

06/04/2002 10:45:35 AM

Here's a history lesson for you. 1914 - Britain promises Arab independence from Ottoman rule (including Palestine) in return for Arab support against Turkey 1917 Nov 02 - Chaim Weizmann persuades the British, as declared by Lord Balfour, to establish a national home for the Jews in Palestine, in part to reward the Jews for support of the British against the Turks during World War I

CrackedClayPot

06/04/2002 10:40:31 AM

Who dares to know the mind of Christ? What arrogance. Read your bibles!!! We need to be praying for both sides, but taking neither. There is pain and suffering, for which we should have compassion, on both sides. There has also been numerous evil deeds perpetrated on both sides. Christian support of the Jews should NOT automatically equate to unilateral Christian support of Israel. Supporting Israel will not "usher in" the second coming any more than wandering around Times Square in a sackcloth and ashes shouting "THE END TIMES ARE NEAR!!!". Give your head a shake, people. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Forget about the end times, concetrate on doing His work and being loving.

b-baggins

06/04/2002 09:59:19 AM

god_is_in_the_tv, You are mistaken. Read some history. The "Palestinians" are a mix of Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, etc. who were abandoned by their respective nations after the 6-day war (in which Israel was attacked). A little history lesson. In the initial 1947 proposal, the land where Jews and Arabs were currently living together would be divided into to nations: Israel and Palestine. The Jews agreed to the arrangement, the Arabs launched an attack against the new nation as their response. After the war, all participating Arab nations refused to assimilate the refugees, so Israel established camps for them and tried to work for their eventual emigration to the surrounding Arab nations. This effort was continually refused because the Arab nations had declared Israel an illegal nation and that the homeland for the refugees was to be the nation of Israel after its destruction.

Corey_X

06/04/2002 09:49:07 AM

It is frustrating to see the Christian right look so foolish, not understanding scripture. They are CONSERVATIVE Christians as the columnist said, not fundamentalist. A fundamentalist reading of the bible relies not on what Tim Lahaye, or John Hagee says, but what the Bible says. Christ, himself said judgement would be upon the generation of Israel of His day. Not some crazy 'end of the world' senario. All this hulabaloo, based on a misunderstanding of prophetic language. If only we read our Old Testaments....

ridinghigh

06/04/2002 09:35:54 AM

Things written in the bible are not happening because certain people want them to. They are happening and have been happening ever since Christ came and died. The things written were written before any of us were ever born. So how can anyone born now claim that we are making it happen. We are not in control of the situation GOD IS!!! So if you believe He is in control then you know there is nothing we can do but sit back and watch it unfold before our eyes. That's exactly what I'm doing. I think it's kind of sad though. Because, looking at what a lot of people are saying on this subject I see alot of people who are worried. Maybe that ought to tell you something about your faith. But, that does'nt mean I condone the killing of anyone. These wars have been going on much longer than anyone of us has been alive.

oldsoul

06/04/2002 09:05:28 AM

my ring now said: "Jen, not everyone is God's child. I guarantee that one. And what you call "fundies" are actually concerned with everyone's salvation, even yours. Oh, and one more thing. There will never be peace and/or unity." now my ring, you and people like you are so full of it. First of all your idea of "God" is extremely warped at the least. That kind of attitude is the very reason why our leaders work so hard at war and not hard enough for peace. To everyone else: I keep telling y'all, it's the aliens who are coming back!!!!! Hello, Annunaki!!! Live long and prosper!

albannach

06/04/2002 08:51:54 AM

We can't really trust God to take care of everything, so we have to help make prophecy happen correctly. The ancient church fathers had very clear teachings on the apocalypse but none of that matters anymore because we evangelicals know better than them. So what if the Palestinian Christians are descendents of the early Christians? They should be happy to lose their homes and lives for what Israel wants. When we stand before God's throne, He is going to judge us according to whether we support the political nation-state of Israel."Well opinionated my good and faithful servant"...

Zero-Equals-Infinity

06/04/2002 08:24:28 AM

It has been my contention for some time that imminentizing their eschatology has been lurking under the surface of support by fundamentalist Christians for Israel. Perhaps if the mushrooms they sought were of the revealing kind rather than the nuclear variety, they would understand how warped their view is. God save me from your believers.

xfilesx0

06/04/2002 07:51:20 AM

This sounds kind of selfish to me...maybe I'm understanding it wrong, but these people sound like they are only supporting Israel based on the rapture. What about the Jewish people? Shouldn't you support it for their sake? For what they are going through at this time? Jane

synthsz1

06/04/2002 07:49:04 AM

oblio writes: "And people STILL don't understand why I hate Christians. " Please don't include mainline Protestants and moderate/liberal Roman Catholics in your assessment. Believe me, we all stand a vast distance from those you are speaking about. The tiny but noisey fundamentalist populations have hijacked Christianity and thus that very word, these days, has negative connotations. The Synth

jeolsen

06/04/2002 05:30:37 AM

Whose job is it to fulfill prophecy? If you truly believe that these prophecies are true, you surely can't believe that we humans are the ones to ensure their fulfillment. This would be like trying to change the will of God. Trying to bring about a prophecy prematurely will achieve nothing. Replacing war with peace would be a much bigger achievement. Leave the fulfillment of prophecy to God; we humans should just concentrate on being good to each other.

utilyan

06/04/2002 05:05:09 AM

rapture..... How many of you would go rather go to heaven then stay "left behind" with the sinners? If you ask yourself slowly you might realize just how selfish you realley are. There will always be good people willing to be knee deep in hell for the others. For us NO ONE gets "Left Behind".

libereligious

06/04/2002 03:33:06 AM

I would remind certain more ignorant and hateful posters on this board that evangelical Christians are only a tiny minority of the Christian population. I have nothing but sympathy for the Israeli teenager blown apart for being Israeli or the young Palestinians killed for being Palestinian; I have nothing but contempt for the selfish and evil leaders who are behind these problems, and their fanatical supporters on both sides.

Kingschild107

06/04/2002 02:57:02 AM

As a conservative Christian I agree with supporting Israel because the Bible states that those who stand with Israel will stand, and those who persecute Israel will fall. I am a strong believer in the rapture, and the tribulation. I don't know exactly what God's plan is for the future, but I know that God's promises to Israel still stand. So I support Pres. Bush's support of Israel. If that ever changed (not that I think for one minute it will), I would continue to support Israel.

Bella_Luna1980

06/04/2002 02:55:35 AM

So much for the separation of church and state. This has to be the silliest reason to get involved in such a conflict that I have ever heard. First, it implies that Christianity is the only true religion, and second, it implies that God can't take care of his own business without our help. Neither of those things should even be considered by our government. It isn't the place of a Government to be involved in such matters.

ariessag

06/04/2002 02:23:18 AM

I do not support George Bush, because I belive he is evil, and I am a Christian, and I believe the rapture will come, but none of this is an excuse for Israel to treat the Palestinians like 2nd class citizens. Social justice IS Christian; ultimately God's justice will be perfect and no one will be judged by a different standard. Anyone who has fallen short of God's perfection and has not accepted the free gift of His Son's redeeming blood, will be judged-Jews or Gentiles. Yes, Israel has a place in prophecy, but that doesn't give Ariel Sharon the right to oppress anyone. Don't hate Christians for telling the truth-hate those who are pretenders-who truly don't care about their fellow man. Jesus supported oppressed people and ultimately was opposed by the Jewish government in power.

oblio

06/04/2002 01:13:15 AM

Can I say anything but I told you so, that I've been saying this for years? All of Bush's faux pas and blunders make perfect sense, in a bizarre way, if you see the fundies in government for what they are: fanatics trying to self-fulfill Revelation by manipulating world affairs to fit their interpretation of the Bible and force their Jesus to return. And people STILL don't understand why I hate Christians.

nomanknows

06/04/2002 12:47:48 AM

I think it is sad to see so much condimnation of other peoples beliefs. Yes i feel strongly that what i believe is true. But if one of us is right and the other wrong, does that give us the right to Judge. I see that some would call me a "fundie" But such a Broad brush can not be used to Paint any group of people. Though many try, Bible will never be fully understood this side of Heaven. I pray that one day we can all sit in Heaven and gain the full understanding

namchuck

06/04/2002 12:40:24 AM

AFC member: The rapture is supposed to precede the secondcoming isn't it? Well, I repeat, Jesus falsely predicted ( Matthew 16:28; Mark 1:9; Luke 9:27, etc) that his second coming in glory would occur within the span of his own generation. It didn't. Since the failure of Jesus's prophecy, every generation has probably thought that they were living in the final one, and your warning is as hollow as was the original prediction. But, I suppose, I'd better watch out, and neither shout nor pout, for you never know who might be coming to town.

abarenboshogunvi

06/03/2002 11:37:52 PM

Richard Land, a Southern Baptist leader with close ties to the Bush Administration, evangelicals support Israel because they believe "God blesses those that bless the Jews and curses those who curse the Jews." Incredible. The Jew as mascot, who brings good luck to evangelical Protestants. Beware of the leaven of evangelical Protestants.

weswest

06/03/2002 11:30:57 PM

I think the rapture event would be comical. I can just see the evangelists running hollering,"NO!NO! those people are not suppose to go, we have declared them sinners." The devil would beckon them and their god would flip them off. If some of the other mythical events were to come about, they will be disapointed in how their god got it so wrong.

AFC_member

06/03/2002 11:20:10 PM

Namchuck, where do you get the idea that the present of the time generation which included Paul and the others was the one which would see the Rapture? It is the generation we are in right now which will not pass until all things are fulfilled. Let me caution you, dear people, that time is rapidly expiring. I would not be surprised if things all come to a conclusion before this decade passes. After all, from the confirmation of the covenant which many believe will allow a sharing of the temple mount between Jews and Muslims, or whatevers, and the battle of Armageddon will be just seven years. This is June 2002. It is not hard to imagine that with the pace at which things are currently progressing that it is possible all may be over by 2010. Be ready, for this is your warning. If you ignore it, your blood is on your own hands.

sunfell

06/03/2002 10:51:42 PM

Good point, Brigid. That selective Biblical picking and choosing are what gets them into such a righteous froth. It's the 'true believers' that scare me, not the prophecies. Sunfell

namchuck

06/03/2002 10:50:40 PM

One should keep in mind that the whole fantastical idea of the so-called 'rapture' ( more a 'rupture' of sanity) is based on an undeniably failed prophecy of Jesus. As Albert Schweitzer took pains to point out decades ago, Jesus predicted that his secondcoming would occur during the lifetime of that generation that was physically hearing his voice. All his followers, including the Apostle Paul, prepared for it. It, obviously, never happened. By the Bible's own testimony: "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing that the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet has spoken presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him", the chimera of the rapture is demolished.

brigid

06/03/2002 10:45:32 PM

The myth that the Second coming will be triggered by the Jews going back to Israel and/or reuilding the temple in Jerusalem is just that, a myth. Christ himself said that he would "come like a thief in the night" Fundamentalists like to pick and choose what Bible verses they believe in to suit their own whims.

sunfell

06/03/2002 10:18:54 PM

Only part of the story is being told here: the entire 'second coming' hinges upon the reconstruction and rededication of the ancient temple of the Hebrews. The Fundamentalist Christians support the existence of Israel because it gives them a chance to attempt this reconstruction. This is an exacting process, but many vitally important things are missing. Also, the Muslims aren't about to let anyone mess with the Dome on the Rock, which is the old foundation of the former Temple. So, all three parties are involved in a deadly religious chess match. Sad, really. If it were up to me, I'd rope the whole place off as too holy for ANYONE to visit. Sunfell

pookiepoo

06/03/2002 10:17:20 PM

Sorry. Should have read as "what our country needs."

pookiepoo

06/03/2002 10:16:39 PM

Great. Just what our ocunry needs. Leaders who kowtow to a fanatical, superstitious, literalist bunch of fundamentalists who believe that a mancame back to life after three days of being dead, allegedly left earth on the clouds, and will return the same way. Yet these same believers are the same ones who pooh-pooh the beliefs of Hindus, Muslims, Wiccans, and anyone else whose mythos doesn't agree with theirs. OUr leaders should be ashamed of themselves for allowing their judgement to be influenced by such things. But then again, Ashcroft and his ilk will do all they can to destroy civil liberties and set up a covert theocracy. And they'll use Jews and Israel as an excuse, not because they (or these so-called "believers") give a hoot about Jews. They not only "need" Israel to exist, they have to do all they can to convert as many Jews as possible...saying, in effect, that Judaism isn't good enough. Or any other religion for that matter.

shlomo_sassoon

06/03/2002 10:03:27 PM

Many of these xtians who staunchly support Jews may operate out of a genuine affection for the Jewish people, for others, however, their motives are not as pure. Unfortunately, many xtians who loudly declare their love for the Jewish people and unconditionally support the state of Israel have an ulterior motive: They do not want to be perceived by their potential Jewish converts to xtianity as being anti-Semitic or associated with Christendom and its long history of hate. Shalom

richie136

06/03/2002 09:39:46 PM

Madness! Madness! Madness! An eye for and eye will make the whole world blind. The Fundies are only good at the Devil's job of protraying their own god as vengeful, wrathful, partial, full of hatred, small minded,myopic,mad, no wisdom and no compassion. So sad that no right minded good Christian can stand up to this madness.

purpleku69

06/03/2002 09:37:54 PM

Hal Lindsay wasn't right in 1972, and he (and others) aren't right now. Think about it: Christians hated and persecuted Jews throughout history, murdered millions (before the 20th century) and only realized that they were "essential" to the "second coming" after 1945??? Isn't this very self-serving of them? What happens if the Jews decide to leave Israel (as many have been) and the Palestinians take over? After all, there have been three "nation of Israels" throughout history, why does this one have to be THE ONE? What if Israel is overthrown, and another Jewish State is established in Palestine in 150 years? Will the Christians then be obsessed that this is THE Israel?

my_ring_now

06/03/2002 09:14:29 PM

Jen, not everyone is God's child. I guarantee that one. And what you call "fundies" are actually concerned with everyone's salvation, even yours. Oh, and one more thing. There will never be peace and/or unity.

my_ring_now

06/03/2002 09:12:40 PM

First of all, Israel will not be destroyed. Trust me. Read your Bible more for understanding. Second, we are already well within the endtimes, the end of the era of mankind ruling the earth. Third, the Rapture is actually going to come much sooner than any of us think, yet at a time we don't expect. That's why it didn't happen on New Year's Eve 2000 or 2001, because so many people were looking for and anticipating imminent something, and when nothing happened, many were disappointed. All the current events only point to His soon return, meaning Jesus. It is near, even at the doors. Are you ready? And if you don't believe the Bible and what it says, don't worry, you will soon enough. I promise.

jenicole1

06/03/2002 08:59:39 PM

All the fundies care about is their own salvation. Who cares about humanity? Don't choose sides based on some ignorant belief of incoming rapture. How many times has that been incorrectly predicted!? Let's just promote peace and unity. Everyone is God's child, and God loves every one of God's children.

anarchy

06/03/2002 08:45:01 PM

You are right god_is_on_the_tv, The Jews, my people did round up the Palestinians. I mean that was awful. Something I'm not proud of as a Jew but I am not a Zionist so I'll live where I choose to live and right now that is Canada not Israel. There is no 2 ways around that for me.

god_is_in_the_tv

06/03/2002 08:29:22 PM

So what happens if Israel is destroyed, perhaps in this latest round of conflict? First of all, Land says, that isn't likely. But if it happens? "My assumption would be that it means ... the Second Coming is coming later than some expected." Or... Perhaps it means that it'e nothing more than ancient apocalyptic myth, akin to the Norse Ragnarok and the Babylonian story of Tiamat. Very little new under the sun, my friends. One can find all kinds of similar mythology if one looks at the bible as cultural folklore insteead of "future history."

god_is_in_the_tv

06/03/2002 08:24:18 PM

YEA!! How would Jesus feel if saw all those muslims trying to commit genocide on the Jews again. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it was the "Israelis" who rounded up the Palestinians into reservations and have been starving them out of their homeland for the last 50+ years. But ofcourse, that's ok.. cuz the bible says they can. How silly of me.

xholdencaulfieldx

06/03/2002 08:18:10 PM

litteralist christian mythology should not influence the leader of a secular nation. if fundies are so proisrael they could start by not condemning jews to hell.

ThinkingMan

06/03/2002 08:06:32 PM

YEA!! How would Jesus feel if saw all those muslims trying to commit genocide on the Jews again.

anarchy

06/03/2002 08:06:22 PM

Yeah, I really don't think he'd be impressed for both sides and he was a Jew!

god_is_in_the_tv

06/03/2002 07:57:16 PM

I seriously wonder how Jesus would feel if he ever came back to see all his so-called followers supporting genocide in Palestine. How loving.

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