Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus

David Klinghoffer explains what he wishes Christians understood about the Jewish rejection of Jesus--in the 1st century & today.

Aman2

01/02/2013 02:33:07 PM

And Jesus wasn't Jewish! He was a Judahite. A Jew is a mongrel combination of Judahite-Edomite-Canaanite-and Hittite. Phariseism is their religion. Judahites are Mosaic. Judaism is Phariseism. Additionally, Judaism is an enemy of the cross. Example, the Babylonian Talmud! Which is why Jesus said this, " I know those that call themselves Judahites and are not. Ye are of your Father Satan." Additionally, Hebrews are Israelites Jews are not! In fact the first five books of the Old Testament is really all about the Virgin Mother Mary and the Foretelling of the Birth of Christ. The remaining books i.e. Kings, and Prophets confirm this. So what then is a Jew...Well I'll let Jesus tell you. Just read the bible!

SwPoIrRdIsT

10/23/2011 05:20:43 PM

It is not required for the Jews to believe upon the Messiah Jesus of nazareth as of right now or the last 2000 years. His life on earth was for a light to the gentiles. Even thought Saul of Tarsus steals this title from the Messiah. The house of judah (outside of the main tribe of judah) was always considered the sojourners and the strangers in the camp of israel although they were clearly divided. This alone denys christian philosophy/theology because true salvation has ALWAYS been offered to gentiles that joined in the camp. Remember the prophecy of Jacob ( Israel ) in genesis 49 that Judah will Bind his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine. Again genesis 9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem. In order to walk in the tents of shem the gentile nation will and must take hold of the covenant that he made with all mankind. Again mentioned in the Torah that outsiders are allowed under the conditions of that very covenant. Noah, Abaraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses. They all had the same covenant from G-D (MY COVENANT G-D calls it). King Solomon in Proverbs writes that wisdom (Covenant, Laws) before the world was created "was there". These same laws where the basis for the earth as we know it now and heaven as we will see it. And Jesus gives the gentiles a way in to be a seed to that same nation and covenant. He fulfills the Levitical laws Chapter 25 with the purchased of servants outside of the camp of Israel. Rememeber the rainbow G-D told Noah would be a sign to all generations. That same rainbow was seen by John when he visioned the throne of G-D. Revelation 4:3 "there was a rainbow round about the throne" Which tells me that the same "My Covenant" is still available today. However as only Jews witnessed that the Messiah was wisked away to heaven he will return for the Jewish nation to make them whole by declaring himself king and fullfilling there faith. As is is written in the Book of Revelation 14:12 "here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Commandents AND Faith, both must be done to make one whole. The non-covenant faith only chrsitian, will be left with no law therefore not made whole because they listened to a man form their beliefs (Saul of Tarsus). While christians look for an antichrist, the Jews look for a Messiah. The Messiah will bring back the laws to the Jewish nation giving them peace. The christians and heathen will be declaring an antichrist because he goes against the teachings of Pauline epistles and laws of the land once the new king declares the LAWS of G-D.

DavidEL

10/20/2011 10:47:41 AM

As a Christian who studies the Jewish law, prophets and writings, and plans to stand by and protect the Jewish people to the death when the prophesies of the last three chapters of Zechariah come to pass, can someone tell me how Jewish scholars explain this quote: Zachariah 12: 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. The Christian scripture uses the term pierced and I believe both could be accurate. As we know, Jesus was pierced though His side. This is right before the Messiah stands on the Mount of Olives and splits it in two. Another question is, if there were many during the time of Jesus claiming to be the Messiah, why did the Jewish leaders slaughter Jesus at the time of the Passover? Surely if they had not had some veil over their understanding they would have known that was the exact time the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world had to be killed at the time of Passover. New Covenant (Revelation 13:8 ). Jesus had told His disciples at their Seder they had to drink His blood and eat His flesh. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Leviticus 17: 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life. Last, how can the commandments in the Torah replace the temple and the sacrificial system when it clearly states that atonement is through blood?

number

08/18/2011 02:29:48 AM

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yidmaydel

08/17/2011 05:51:32 AM

Maxtech, Klinghoffer is merely stating the facts, trying to help out to help understand..thats all...not telling whats right or wrong..trying to help with a difficult problem, that's all...if you have anger, you cant see that...G-d bless everyone..and only a Jew writes G-d...that's a fierce committment to Judaism...oh, if you dont mind more fact to explain, we don't write the full name, as we don't want His name to be strampled on or destroyed...thats committment!! hahaha oh, and your paragraph underneath? So now this will prompt you to see the love and truth? And stop being so angry...lots of folks think differently...if you found love, go for it...but dont hurt other folks while they are.. just a thought---dont u think its arrogant and just wrong to excpect all people to think and act ike you do...that they're not as good as you, because they believe differently...the bottom line is G-d, period,,,,so lets get to loving and living in peace..Can I get an Amen!?? in love L

yidmaydel

08/17/2011 05:29:18 AM

I forgot to ask, McVouy, when did some Jews treat Christians badly? Do you think anything is as terrible as the Jewish persecution...that G-d finally gave them a homeland in 1948..1948, no where to live...they were persecutied and hated by the world and had to keep moving...and you think others were treated poortly..do u remember the Holocaust? H might have been the leader, but all was followed out by non jews...so Im leaving out the word C, as not to offend..if you feel we were taught incorrectly about a subject, teach kindly and with love...thats how....not hate and loathing..thats not Jesus is it? And Jesus came to earth to die for your sins, right...so no one is to blame, but G-d...Im not blaming him, but it sure is easier to BLAME A HANDFUL OF LOVELY, giving, SUCCESSFUL people, huh? hmmmmm thats what Hitler did too....jealousy in a crazy, misunderstood thing..MY G-D is all about love and laughter and giving and loving...isnt that everyone's Lord....peace

yidmaydel

08/17/2011 05:17:34 AM

McVouy, Im curious..., what religion do you think Moses is; do tell..thnks..

yidmaydel

08/17/2011 05:15:53 AM

This is a very difficult subject....No one spit in anyone's face...This man merely helped explain how a lot of Jews are taught...I was taught differently..I went to a religious synagogue for a while...they taught me how when Jesus was in the temple, how the head Rabbi gave those high priests Hashem's, G-ds, name and he wrote it into his arm to fly...he is very much part of talk and ideas...It is true that we werent't talk to believe, because simply the Bible says that when the Messiah returns there will be peace and the third Temple will be physically built...again, there were (AND STILL ARE, BIG TIME) many many prophets trying to say they were somebody special..The most important part is the Old Testament said there is One G-d, you shall take no other G-ds before me...that went according to G-d words, right?? So you can see how reading ONE chapter, that is written very vaguely indeed, how an entire people cannot give up their G-d. That should be seen as loyal to G-d and loving....so this by itself shows how much the Jewish people love G-d, our G-d, everyones!!! Bless you...

MAXTECH

08/16/2011 03:28:04 PM

How would you feel if you accidentally spit into Christ's face. The power and purpose of Jesus Christ's existance is far greater than you can imagine. Watch the Video that is downloadable @ http://www.outersecrets.com/real/the_full_intro.htm Watch it. Study it, and be sure to have a spare pair of clean underwear nearby. A DVD version of this Video, and more, are available @ http://www.outersecrets.com/real/download.htm

McVouy

08/14/2011 10:27:19 PM

First, Moses is not a Jew, second, King David is not a Christian and third, Lord Jesus is not a Jew but as baptized by John the Baptist as Christian but Lord Jesus is a Roman citizen as registered. The way Lord Jesus was treated was the way Jews treated Christians, where in comparison to Allah, Christ is one and the same but differ in people in faith. Anyway, how would anyone eat their food without killing? And, is the Lord had all the name on people who had their Lordship upon them? The present is a baffle to begin with in all the dealings with religions when it comes to scriptures. So, what we had here is the time and spaces for everyone to move on...

JaJaon903

08/10/2011 12:09:10 PM

there are cult catering to college students who have low self esteem that believe there is a christ for the current age that is not jesus-they say jesus was for the time that he was alive but the current time has another christ. how do you get someone out of something like this:?

emraldctys

08/08/2011 01:44:25 PM

Messianic Monotheist said:But Christians feel that he Jewish way of life is only one phase of God's plan for humanity, and they feel that God wants us to move onto the next. Christians feel that Jesus is that next phase. Well: not all Christians feel this or Denominations feel this or believe this and in fact the division among Christians as to who and what Jesus is/was or will be is pretty diverse. Islam feels as MM feels but instead it is Islam that is the next phase. Buddhism is fairly consistent in their belief/non-belief. MM said Then you can just as easily say "God isn't how I imagine him to be so he doesn't exist." Conversely one can say, God is exactly how I 'IMAGINE' him to be"(my emphasis) does not make him real. Progression or should I say Evolution in religion (from Judaism to Christianity or Islam ) does not make it real. Believiing in Heaven and Hell makes nothing real. If Christians aren't trying to change anyone why the heavy proselytizing? Why the heavy political lobbying to force people to obey certain Religious beliefs and principles?? NO, claiming that Christians are not trying to change people is absolutely disingenuous..that is exactly what they are trying to do and have done so for generations. Look at history and look at the political fighting today to stop Gays from being married. Oh , I do think you are trying to change people. Christianity operates on a lot of assumptions besides people disagreeing with them until the end (which by the way will not happen in any way Christians believe, if it happens at all. But that is another subject entirely) Christianity views Jews and Judaism as some ancient religion and culture that is dying to return to the days of the Judges and prophets and have a king. Sorry, the Jews enjoy a coalition govt, nobody wants a King these days, especially not Americans. The Jews probably don't feel that they need to start animal sacrifices again and in general would find that ancient practice Barbaric. Christians say these things about Judaism in general because theey don't really understand Judaism other than from the Bible stories.

MessianicMonotheist

08/08/2011 07:04:25 AM

I disagree that Christians as a whole don't understand why Jews don't accept Jesus. Christians understand that it isn't simply the product of xenophobia or bias. They understand that Jews are very proud of what they are and where they've come from. So they should be! But Christians feel that he Jewish way of life is only one phase of God's plan for humanity, and they feel that God wants us to move onto the next. Christians feel that Jesus is that next phase. In the same way that Jews don't feel Christians have enough good reasons for believing Jesus is the messiah, Christians feel Jews don't have enough good reasons. If you can simply say "Jesus wasn't the messiah because he wasn't what we expect when we think of the messiah." Then you can just as easily say "God isn't how I imagine him to be so he doesn't exist." People are very anxious to tell Christians to "relax" to "take it easy" to just "accept people as they are". They do, they just wish everyone else would also "relax", "take it easy" and accept their faith. They aren't really trying to change anyone. That isn't the aim. They simply believe what they believe, and to believe in a real Heaven and a real Hell means there is a real need to act on that belief. They can't be expected to ignore their own beliefs anymore then anyone else would. Christianity operates on the presumption that there will be people who don't agree with it until the end, but that there are always some people who are going to change their mind. I don't know if any other faith is like this but this is how things are.

emraldctys

08/08/2011 12:10:56 AM

This is a debate that will never be settled. Actually many Jews accept Jeshua as Messiah, despite being Jewish and for many reasons. Obviously, on the whole Judaism will never become Judeanityand Christianity will never become Chewish. I see converts going both ways, as well as moving over the Islam, Hindu, Krishna etc. So the question really isn't about personal belief, it is about large cultural shifts. That won't happen.Is Jesus the Messiah? according to LUKE-ACTS yes and rejected. But, I must maintain that despite the claims by Christians and The Gospeel of Luke-Acts,Unless Jesus fullfills the office of Messiah..he IS NOT THE MESSIAH. You can't change the rules and definitions and say he is by another definition. Sorry. as of right now, Jesus is only the Messiah IF all the definitions are changed and I think that is a bit disingenous. Could he be the Messiah?/ well, he would need to come back and FULLFILL that office in a real and practical way..not just say..Ummm..I am changing the definition and by my new definition I am Messiah. That would be like me saying, if you look like me, you are President Obama..I look like me therefore I am President Obama. LOL..harrrrdly! How about this, we all live by the principles of mutual respect and love and mercy and not be so anxious to convert eveyone else to our bent? How about Christians supporting the Jews for who and what they are and help Israel for who they are now and stop with the paternalistic attitude of 'We love you because our saviour was one of you..and we will act paternalistic towards you until you finally see the light yada yada...Stop the condescension folks..

dixontaylor

08/07/2011 10:14:31 PM

After several years of study, I finally was converted into Judaism in my synagogue. Raised as a Christian, I always wondered why and how the things I was taught could be so. I am a logical person. I began to go to Temple and study Torah and anything else I could get my hands on. I felt at peace in the synagogue in a way I never had in a church. I finally began to understand. It was not only that I did not believe in Jesus as anything but a son of a man,but Judaism spoke to me and Christianity never uttered the right words. This great day for me was just recently,but I know who I am and I am a Jew forever. Never tell me I am such a nice lady; I need to be saved.

jemerpi

08/07/2011 12:21:10 PM

Actually, Jesus has proven to be as much as a Messianic figure as Israel could ever hope for. His pacifistic and socially progressive teaching had in in fact led to first such conceptions on a large scale and continues to do so globally. King David (perhaps the greatest Israeli model), in truth, was a very minor figure politically speaking, having no relevance whatsoever outside Israel and its small bordering neighbors. That is, Israel at its highest never even approached true empire status but was always the backwaters of other empires. And there's no question that the Exodus and Conquest as described in the bible were highly exaggerated. On the other hand, Jesus has been the most significant figure in western history and has impacted all parts of the globe. To imagine a literal political leader coming our of Israel to lead the world to literal and political global peace. Now, that is sheer delusion. And to think that Jewish Christians were criticized for not suicidally fighting Rome, sheer nonsense. After all, they were following the "Prince of Peace."

MarleneEmmett5

08/07/2011 10:45:04 AM

I grew up in a mixed nationality/mixed religion home. My dad was German,Italian, & Protestant. Mom was Jewish,Austrian, Irish. Dad converted to marry mom. Now I grew up with 6 cousins who were Catholic & lutheran. Holidays at our houses were interesting to say the least. We celebrated: Christmas,Easter/Passover,Thanksgiving, July 4th And also Rosh Hashnah. Also birthdays. Now from the time I was about 7 I got really interested in Jesus. This came about after I went to Church with my cousins on Christmas. i was facinated. I wanted to know more about the man. I did know that Jesus was the Son of God,that his Earthly Parents were from the line of David,the King. And I knew something of the fortelling of his birth. Jesus's birth was fortold by an Angel to Namoi,the mother in law of Ruth. "Out of your Daughter will come a son,and out of her son will come a King And out of the King will come the Massiah" Ruth gave birth to Obed who was the father to Jesse. Jesse was the father to David,who would become King of Israel. And out of the House of David, would come both Mary & Joseph.. Mary was chosen by God to carry his Son,Joseph would be Jesus's Earthly father and help to raise God's Son. Now in those days there was only one Religion,Orthodox Jeudism And 1 belief in One God. Because of the kind of household I grew up in I chose to accept Jesus. I remember where he came from,I remember his Jewish origins. I think that it's really important to do so. You cannot accept Jesus without accepting his Jewish side. There is no separating them~the differance is no finer than a Human hair. Jesus was a Jew,he died a Jew who was put to Death by the Roman's And he was Cruixfied . The Romans only carried out the Sentence. It was Jesus's own people who asked for his Death. They didn't know what to make of Him,they were scared so they turned to Rome and asked Rome to put him to Death. As they themselves couldn't pronounce the Sentence of Death on anyone. I accept Jesus because of something that happened to me when I was 18. I became pregnant,and my parents made me abort my child. I was numb inside. I wanted to go tell my Rabbi. My mother forbade me,she was ashamed that I'd gotten pregnant. Many years later I told a nun what I had done and also my brother in law, who's a Unitarian Minister. Both said that Jesus had forgiven me.

olscatterbrain

08/01/2011 05:21:12 PM

Originally , Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Isreal, the Jews however, regectd him. They did not think he was from heaven because they thought they knew who his Mother and Fathe ws and God, therefore, was not his Father. Jesus thene wento the Gentiles. Were the Jews really recieving there message from God? as they thought they were? or are the numerous rules and regulations of the Jewish faith truly from Man?

nellminow

07/14/2011 10:22:30 PM

It is inappropriate and borderline offensive to phrase the question this way. Why not say, "Why did Jesus reject Judaism?" or "Why did Paul reject Judaism?" Jews did not and do not reject Jesus any more than we reject Mohammed or Buddha. He is irrelevant to the faith of Judaism, which is complete in and of itself. Judaism is not Christianity without Jesus. It has some very fundamentally different notions about the meaning of the Bible and the connection between people and God. If you do not believe people need to be saved, the question of Jesus is not really important. It would make much more sense to begin to explore those questions to achieve a better understanding of Judaism than to focus on the question of Jesus.

MAXTECH

01/26/2010 04:30:20 PM

TRUTH is the answer ! Head for the truth, rather than have a religious competition. Spend a week studying this web page and see who is here in the here and now, and who " BELIEVERS " still reject in a mere instant. http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm You are only dependent upon your religious beliefs if you are presently located at a distance from the truth, thus if you stick to your beliefs, you stick to being located at a distance from the truth. Thus if the truth is presented to you in the here and now, not only will you will not see it for what it is, you will reject it with every last drop of energy within you if necessary.

gnixon

05/21/2009 11:54:28 AM

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windbender

03/14/2006 07:02:01 PM

"Jews for Judaism need Jews for Jesus"? Trust me, Jews for Judaism would be happy to go away, were there no need to counter proselytizers bent on saving us from ourselves.

Heretic_for_Christ

03/09/2006 10:09:49 AM

PS. I am withdrawing from B-net, at least for awhile, because I am becoming overwhelmed with anger at the surge in fundamentalist messages of surpassing snottiness on various boards. It does no good for a heretic like me to keep rebutting them, and I have called on rational Christians to defend their faith from the cancer of fanaticism by standing up to those among them whose words demean, disgrace, and will eventually destroy their faith. Peace.

Heretic_for_Christ

03/09/2006 10:05:55 AM

I don't see Judaism as disowning its child; it rejects church doctrine ABOUT that person. Nor do I see Judaism needing Christianity at all, for Christian doctrine (as I learned it in the years I attended churches) is so alien to what I know of Judaic thought that I will no longer even use the phrase "Judaeo-Christian." In other words, Christianity is NOT Judaism plus belief in Jesus as lord and savior. Whether Christianity needs Judaism is a different story, for the church has pinned its legitimacy on the notion that Jesus is the fulfillment of messianic prophesy. This is clearly wrong; Jesus may or may not have been a uniquely divine person, but he fulfilled none of the characteristics of the Hebrew scriptures messiah. I don't see a conflict between Judaism and the spiritual teachings of Jesus (indeed, some have said that those teachings are reiterations of the teachings of Isaiah and Hillel). The conflict is between Judaic teachings and church doctrines about sin and salvation.

universalman

03/08/2006 10:52:28 PM

I hate to generalize, but despite so many posts, there is little factual information presented here. People are reinforcing David Klinghoffer's point - Jews and Christians are still talking at each other not to each other. Slogans are nice and safe, they are the result of memetic training in respective religious traditions, but they are merely robotic regurgitations of someone else's opinions. However slogans inevitably get old. Unfortunately David's interview is filled with them as well. Christianity was born out of Judaism, and now Judaism has been transformed into something else and wishes to disown its child. It is not going to work. There is too much connection and cross-fertilization going on. I hate Hegel and Hegelian view of history, but it is tempting to set up a dialectic here. Judaism needs Christianity no less then Jews for Judaism need Jews for Jesus, as David so keenly observed.

windbender

03/08/2006 08:51:14 PM

"... the one thing that all Jews have in common--that we don't accept Jesus as our savior. That's the one and only thing on which all Jews agree." That, and that a bagel isn't just another chewy doughnut.

Heretic_for_Christ

03/08/2006 02:20:33 PM

Ah, jewsforjesus has an answer to the question of how it can be that Jesus is the messiah if he didn't fulfill any of the characteristics mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures - it hasn't happened YET, but it will when Jesus returns. Oh. But we can say that about ANYONE, can't we?

idbc

03/08/2006 01:29:34 PM

I was always curious as to what happened to the christian-jews in Jerseluem when it was sacked.

LeahOne

03/07/2006 10:57:15 AM

Nothing is said in Torah about a first and then a second arrival of Maschiach. The point is, the prophesies aren't fulfilled now. So now it's too soon for Jews to say that Maschiach has arrived. If one says that Maschiach has arrived now, they are not a Jew.

LeahOne

03/07/2006 10:54:18 AM

JforJ - OK, fine. If your mother was a Jew, then you're a member of the Jewish people according to halacha. Since you have evidently chosen to believe the basic tenets of a religion other than Judaism: NO, you are not a member of the Jewish faith or religion. My husband was not born of a Jewish mother, but he is now a Jew by choice. You've made the opposite choice.

jewsforjesus

03/06/2006 11:04:13 PM

JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES IF THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE NOT OF ONE MIND WHAT IS THE LIKELIHOOD THAT ANY MAN CAN? THERE IS NO REASON WHY JESUS WON'T ACCOMPLISH THES PROPHECIES WHEN HE RETURNS. ONLY A SUPER NATURAL POWER CAN FULFILL THESE PROPHECIES. A GOD/MAN What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? Build the Third Temple - The Temple is destroyed, Jesus will build the temple of God when He returns Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel - The Jews are scattered, Jesus will gather them when He returns Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." - Nations can never achieve this until Jesus returns Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" - Jesus will do this when He returns

jewsforjesus

03/06/2006 10:23:13 PM

I usually agree with Michael Medved, but if he has made the point that this is the one thing that all Jews have in common--that we don't accept Jesus as our savior. That's the one and only thing on which all Jews agree then I couldn't disagree with him more and find it hard to think he would say something so silly. Perhaps he should visit http://www.jewsforjesus.com/ or reconsider how he defines the meaning of being Jewish.

Kwong

10/03/2005 04:49:26 PM

Concerning Jesus's lineage - Was it not written that the Saviour is to be from the house of David (so that the scriptures are fulfilled) Isaiah 9:6-7 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom Isaiah7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: "Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name 'Immanuel' (see Matthew 1:23) How can Christ be descended from David or is a son of Joseph ? How can David Call His Descendant Lord ? Mark 12:36 "For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" 37 Therefore David himself calls Him 'Lord'; how is He then his "Son ?" ..... Luke 23:1 Now Jesus Himself begain His ministryat about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph,...

Kwong

10/03/2005 04:27:20 PM

All the apostles of Christ are Jews. Apostle Paul, a Jew himself (who considers himself the foremost of the Jews) at first persecuted Christians (and bring some to their death) But, he was on his way to Damascus was converted (Acts 9:3) He had a personal and spiritual encounter with Christ the Lord. The kingdom of God is first preached to Jews, but when the Jews rejected him, he opens the kingdom of God to the Gentiles too. Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, ..."But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 21 :42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read the scriptures : "The stone which he builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone.... Matthew 21 :43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

bunsinspace

09/20/2005 03:29:40 PM

BS"D Klinghoffer is easy on Christians. He could simply have pointed out that if someone killed a Christian's entire family in the name of their god, wouldn't it be EXTREMELY presumptuous of that person to expect the survivor to worship that murderous deity?

Heretic_for_Christ

07/18/2005 01:06:17 PM

Samloyal, You and I may be the only ones still monitoring this list, but I liked your comments. Actually, the Christian view of who Jesus was is self-contradictory. The genealogy at the beginning of the gospel of Matthew traces the heritage from David to Joseph, but then insists that Joseph was NOT the father (God was the father). Mary's lineage MAY also have been Davidic but was never specified, and her ancestry seems unimportant as royal or messianic lineage was via the father. The point was to establish Jesus' messianic credentials by having him appear as the descendent of David; yet by insisting that Jesus had no human father, he could not possibly be considered of the line of David. It is interesting that whereas the Hebrew designation "ben Yosef" recognizes him as the son of Joseph, he is sometimes referred to in the Greek scriptures as the son of Mary, which could be interpreted as recognition that he had no human father but is perhaps more likely to suggest that he was considered illegitimate.

Samloyal23

07/18/2005 02:30:07 AM

Yehoshua ben Yosef was not God. That is the crux of the issue. What was he? Ben ha-Adamah, a son of Adam, a mortal man. He says that in the New Testament, but Christians refuse to believe him. He was also an aristocrat, not a poor carpenter's son, being descended from David on both sides of his family and growing up expecting to restore the throne of David. He was a rabbi, a father, a husband, and prince. He was also a rebel, attempting to instigate a war against Rome by the Jewish populace of Jerusalem when he was arrested. A lamb to the slaughter he was not...

davidchai

05/31/2005 06:47:53 PM

Jews do not accept Jesusas a God or Messiah because he was neither. He was just a human being like all other human beings. Simple.

dulcinea1

05/31/2005 01:00:33 PM

I personally believe that Jesus Christ did not come to establish a new Religion. I think that was Paul and The Romans' idea in order to retain power. I was born into the Christian Faith and Baptised into the Catholic Faith; this does not keep me from having a close personal relationship with God and a search for the truth. I was on a secular tour of Israel and our guide asked me what I thought and right then and there it occurred to me that He did not come to establish a new faith but to confirm the Faith already handed down by our Fathers. A Catholic Priest confirmed my belief. Jesus Christ did not come to start a new Religion but to give us a Covenant of Love with our Father.

eastcoastlady

05/23/2005 12:48:43 PM

H4C, I went to Shop Rite one year and picked up some Maxwell House Passover Haggadahs. Turns out I didn't like that version of the Haggadah (it's changed since the older ones that I used to like that my in-laws have at their house). We asked the rabbi - we're not supposed to just throw them out because they have G-d printed all over them in prayer. So, we have to take them to the shul for the rabbi to properly dispose of them, probably by burying them.

Heretic_for_Christ

05/23/2005 10:30:27 AM

eastcoastlady, Thank you for the clarification. The example you give--if a physical piece of writing or printing with the name of God were tossed out, it would be disrespectful--makes the convention not just ceremonial but meaningful in a way I had not envisioned.

eastcoastlady

05/23/2005 09:08:01 AM

H4C, To take your excellent explanation even further, "Adonai" is typically not used in conversation; rather "Adoshem" is used when speaking a prayer out of the context of a shul prayer service. "Hashem" is also used. I think the number of names for G-d that we have is 72. You were correct in your explanation that we do not want to risk the profanation of G-d's name even though, as you said, it's more of a title than a name to say "G-d"; still, for example, if someone were to print out these discussions and then throw it out with the name of G-d printed on it, it would be considered disrespectful.

olubo

05/22/2005 01:28:19 PM

H4C; Thank you. As always, your answers are well thought out & written.

Heretic_for_Christ

05/22/2005 10:05:10 AM

As this board is archived and may not have much activity any more, I'll take the liberty of answering: It is a custom for Jews to write "G-d" because they consider the name of God too holy to profane. Although in English, "God" is more a title than a name, I believe this custom in writing arises from the same sensibility as the oral substitution of the word Adonai ("Lord") for the Hebrew tetragrammaton for the actual name of God as recorded in the Hebrew scriptures and transliterated into English as JHWH and sometimes distorted therefrom as Jehovah. In any case, it is not a mark of disrespect; quite the contrary.

SportsDen

05/22/2005 07:56:33 AM

Being new to this site, I'm puzzled by the "G-D" references, apparently with the hyphen replacing "o". What's the deal? Someone clue me in please.

eastcoastlady

05/20/2005 08:26:39 AM

CONT’D. to WTB I guess what I meant by "that simple" is that it is easy for us not to take Jesus as Messiah. It is for me, anyway; it's probably inappropriate for me to speak so easily for others. However, what is not so easy is to pin down exactly what will happen when the messiah arrives. On the other hand (like Tevye), it is also easy for me to see that Jesus does not fit the Torah concept of Messiah. I agree 1000% that our sins are ours alone to deal with (other than confession to G-d and teshuvah). What I mean is that no one else can die or repent for our sins; they are indeed our own responsibility. No offense intended to my Christian brethren.....

eastcoastlady

05/20/2005 08:25:46 AM

Good morning, WTB - To further the points you made - Maybe part of what confuses some is that not only do we not believe in Jesus as Messiah, but our entire concept of who the Messiah will be and what he will accomplish is different than that of the Christian belief. We are not looking to be "saved' by the Messiah; we are (according to Midrash) awaiting a Messianic age when we will all be brought to Israel for 1,000 years (if I have that right) before returning to G-d. It also bears mentioning that so much of our belief (particularly as it refers to the afterlife, olam haba) is left purposefully vague to encourage us to perform "tikkun olam" in this life. CONT’D.

walkingthebible

05/19/2005 08:54:07 PM

EC-Thank you for your thoughtful response. I'm not so sure, though, that it is "that simple" or, better put, straightforward for all Jews. Through my own study, contemplation, etc. I am not convinced as to the coming of a Messiah as being anything other than symbolic. The reference to Isaiah 53 "suffering servant" is puzzling. I find no such passage leading me to believe he quotes OT (first book of Christian Bible). I disagree that an intelligent case "can be made for Jesus" and we need to remember that the OT is not the Hebrew "Bible" - the OT has been rewritten in such as way to make that case; the Hebrew Scriptures (Tenach, Prophets. etc.) do not make that case. The subject of Isaiah 53 bears greater resemblance to a leper (e.g.) then a messiah. It is for this reason that, rather than a human, this 'servant' is more in line with Jung's collective unconscious. It reminds us that no one or one thing can unburden us from our own transgressions - that is our own burden to bear and to deal with.

eastcoastlady

05/19/2005 09:39:21 AM

Walking, It's not you, and you should not feel that way. We're brought up to believe there's only one true G-d and that the Messiah has not yet come. It's that simple. It never occurs to us that we should think otherwise. It's for the non-Jews who do not understand our perspective that this article is particularly helpful. However, this article also provides useful information for us to reply to those who ask us why we don't believe in Jesus as divine; we can delineate specific things other than an emotional response to the effect of, "Well, we just don't!"

walkingthebible

05/18/2005 09:03:52 AM

Maybe it is just me but I never wonder, "Why I don’t accept Jesus?" I do wonder why this is even an issue. Interesting that this is a question that is brought forward by a self-proclaimed convert - makes me think of Dr. Laura who parted with Orthodox Judaism because she wasn't being applauded for all her hard work. We never sought salvation -- rather, it is our responsibility to contribute to the "saving of the world" as a whole for all peoples. The "613" were not so much "gifts" but obligations, responsibilities - a call to "clean up our act". This inclusion of salvation hints at the riff formed by "chosen people". It has been interpreted by scholars that we - the Jewish people - were not so much chosen as "we chose" - and that choice was open to any human on the face of the earth. The choice was to live a moral life, a just life - not to wait for promise of after-life and not to be given "outs" for deviations -- hey, our life is written in the "book", no "white-outs", no "delete button".

windbender

05/17/2005 11:23:59 PM

Oceana2 writes; "And if you think that Jesus was not killed for updating his religion then look at Martin Luther King and others who also were murdered." Dr. King's contribution to religion escapes me, though I can see that his faith, as well as that of others, helped bring about the gift of change for which he fought and died. I'm not sure he qualifies as a riligious reformer. Nor would Jesus qualify as a reformer of Judaism, I suspect. Judaism has a long history of educated debate and well considered opinions. Akiba, Hillel, Maimonades and many others have contributed greatly to the developement of Jewish thought and to Judaism as a whole. Jesus is not generally regarded as amongst them. While Jesus is credited with having restated many of the same points Moses had made very much earlier in our history he hardly ushered in a Jewish Reformation.

stuartfederow

05/17/2005 10:38:19 PM

David Klinghoffer misses the point, both in his book, and here in the interview. The reason why the Jews reject Jesus, is that the religion about Jesus both contradicted the Bible, and had more in common with Hellenist paganism than with the beliefs found in the Bible and therefore in Judaism. The Bible tells us, "Eesh b'chet-o yu-ma-tu, Every man must die for his own sin," in Deuteronomy 24:16, reflecting what Moses learned from Gd in Exodus 32:30-35, which is an idea found again in Ezekiel 18:1-4; 20-24; 26-27, that no one else can die for your sin. Furthermore, the Bible tells us "For I am Gd and not a man," in Hosea 11:9, reflecting what is found in Numbers 23:19, and in other places. However, the idea that there is a dying/saving man/god is found all over the Mediteranean, in religions that long predate Christianity. Even Hercules had a human mother and a god (Zeus) for a father. The disagreement between Judaism and Christianity is because of the diametric opposition of their beliefs.

Oceana2

05/17/2005 09:03:08 PM

Why do the Jewish (hebrew) faith need to accept Christ? Why are they not allowed to beleive what they choose? It's their religious beleifs, not ours? I don't feel they need to "justify" why they do or don't. I believe Jesus existed (or whatever his real name was) and that he had a profound impact to his followers. Obviously or Christainty would of died out. He also promoted GOD in a time where gods and goddesses still existed as that was HIS beleif (Mosaic) and his own religion became corrupt itself. He had such a powerful impact that he was killed as he was a threat to the rabbis as that time who were corrupt themselves. Why he was killed. Christians seem to carry the GUILT of the Jewish faith? Jesus's teachings were based on Hebrew worship (Judiasm). And a lot more was politically going on as well. And if you think that Jesus was not killed for updating his religion then look at Martin Luther King and others who also were murdered. Time to grow up

windbender

05/17/2005 10:38:51 AM

"Well, there's obviously history, 2,000 years of friction." So it seems.

ruachtov

05/17/2005 10:31:31 AM

Help! Help! I'm being Oppressed!! I think H4C hit the nail on the head many times over. The whole concept of the messiah is a different concept between christians and Jews. The messiah will free all the jews around the world and bring them all back to the holyland and rebuilt the temple. Problem, is... I'm not intersted in going. While I am a Jew, and belong to a conservative synagogue here in Virgnia, that is where I want to stay. I consider Brooklyn NY my ancestral homeland. Many American Jews today would agree with me. So I do not see the messianic promise happening anytime soon.

Heretic_for_Christ

05/16/2005 08:35:42 AM

truthinjesus, Klinghofer's use of "saved" is different from the Christian view. The law provides a guide to just and healthy living. Messianic prophesy refers to a human who would liberate the Jews from oppression (in contrast to the NT concept of messiah as divine savior from sin). To the Jews, the law and messiah were different concepts, and the law is the more important of the two. This is central to why the Jews don't accept Christian doctrine about Jesus -- Jesus did NOT fulfill the messianic role as understood in the Hebrew scriptures, for he did not liberate the Jews from Roman oppression. The other reason is that the whole concept of messiah as presented in the Greek scriptures -- so different from the concept in the Hebrew scriptures -- is alien to Jewish belief.

truthinjesus

05/15/2005 09:01:03 PM

According to David Klinghoffer, they were "saved" at Siani at the giving of the Law. The 613 commandments in the Torah, then become the "response" to their salvation. My question is, if that's true, then why did God waste His time promising a Messiah?

cathar1950

05/15/2005 07:47:49 PM

I just started reading the book. I like it. I have a problem with Christianity being raised a Christian. It is kind of pagen(not that there is anything wrong with that)G-d/man, virgin birth, blood sacrifice, and a whole bunch of issues. As for Jewish-Christian well why not? I think James Jesus'brother would fit. It lost it's Jewish roots. Some one wrote "Jesus was pointing to God and Christianity has been staring at his finger ever since. I think forgiveness is something God offers and we in kind are suppose to offer each other. So we don't need Jesus to be saved(an other issue)it was God doing the work. King/Messiah claims are not anti-jewish it is the other weird stuff we are expected to swallow. What I do admire about Judaism is the questioning and critical thinking built into the system. Only Abraham would have the gonads to bug God about destroying Sodom(even if it is a myth)Friends talk stuff over. God called him His friend.

eastcoastlady

05/12/2005 09:10:13 PM

H4C, Once again, you shine. These boards are so much richer for your presence on them!

Heretic_for_Christ

05/12/2005 01:14:19 PM

I think that we can all learn from the teachings of Jesus, which are, to me, comments on the spiritual truths underlying the letter of the law. That has nothing to do with accepting Jesus as the Messiah. If we are talking about the original Hebrew scriptures messiah, I don't believe that could refer to Jesus; my understanding is that Messiah in that context was a human being who would free and gather the scattered Jewish people and rebuild the temple. Didn't happen. The Greek scriptures Messiah is a different concept -- a uniquely divine individual, co-equal with God the father, and savior from sin and damnation. These concepts seem alien to the main thrust of Jewish thought.

eastcoastlady

05/12/2005 10:50:27 AM

ariela1 5/12/2005 6:58:43 AM I believe that accepting Jesus as the Messiah only makes us 'more Jewish'. Absolutely, positively, unequivocally, NOT.

ariela1

05/12/2005 06:58:43 AM

I believe that accepting Jesus as the Messiah only makes us 'more Jewish'. It changes nothing as to our keeping of Torah and leading a very 'observant' and normal Jewish life. The Messiah said that we needed to "do what the Rabbis tell us to do since they sit on Moses' seat". A closer look at the scripture in the Old Testament describing the relationship of Joseph and his brothers will show us that it all was a clear prototype of the reltionship of the Messiah and His brothers, the Jews. In the end Joseph reveal himself to his brothers and he tells them not to worry and that even though they meant it for evil............G-d used it for good.......for the salvation of the world and theirs also.

windbender

05/09/2005 07:03:12 PM

H4C/Dovidl - I know at least one (more) Jew who appreciates the merit of that.

Beliefnet_Tiger

05/09/2005 06:20:45 PM

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Dovidl

05/09/2005 11:10:26 AM

HFC, as a Jew, I would say that sums it up beautifully!

Heretic_for_Christ

05/08/2005 08:13:38 AM

The title of this article could be mistakenly interpreted as implying some hostility toward the historical individual, Jesus. Not so. The proper title would be Why Jews Don't Accept Christian Dogma About Jesus. Jesus was a Jew talking to other Jews. What he taught was actually quite consistent with the Jewish law, but he revealed an astonishing alive spiritual dimension underlying the letter of the law. Thus, Jews today can look at the teachings OF Jesus without any hostility. In contrast, Christian doctrine ABOUT Jesus is absolutely unacceptable to Jews, which is understandable given that Christianity is NOT, as Christians call it, a "fulfillment" of Judaism but a totally different religion (which renders the phrase Judaeo-Christian meaningless). Two millenia of Christian atrocities against the Jews doesn't help much, either.

BeliefnetLion

05/03/2005 11:18:33 PM

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sunfell

05/03/2005 09:03:24 PM

This was an excellent, in-depth and insightful book. It gave me a different view of Christianity, as well as that of Judaism. I will purchase this book for my own library. Reading the Scriptures without the Christian filter changes them completely.

LeahOne

05/02/2005 04:46:03 PM

Something else Christians tend to not comprehend about Jewish beliefs: 'Pharisees' are not bad people. Hillel was perhaps the premier Pharisee: the Conservative Jewish (that's a denomination)college program is 'Hillel House' (much like the Newman House is for Roman Catholic students). After more than 2000 years, Hillel remains a major figure of Jewish thought.

LeahOne

05/02/2005 04:39:34 PM

Trying to remain on topic: One problem, I feel, is that Christians have so little comprehension of Judaism that they don't have any idea what Jews are 'comparing' the Chrisitan beliefs to. The average Christian has no clue what the significance of the Samaritan was in that parable - and yet Jesus' Jewish listeners would have known. One piece of information which may help Christians understand the Jewish view of Jesus and Christian beliefs: The 'Old Testament' is NOT all of 'The Law': it is only the Written Law. Without the Talmud(Oral Law), it is not possible to learn the complete Jewish understanding on any topic/passage in the Hebrew Bible.

Songflight

05/02/2005 04:32:28 PM

Than maybe the discussion should be on what Jews do believe in rather than focusing on what Jews do not worship. The concept of one divine force with many attributes. The concept of Tikun Olam, repairing the world. The Convent we accepted on Mount Sinai. These are important. A man is but a man.

keeplistening

05/02/2005 04:27:35 PM

His topic actually is: What he wishes Christians understood about Jews who aren't convinced by the Christian religion. Period. It's not an attack on Christians. It's not judging relative merits of either faith. It's simply is a statement that he thinks Christians don't understand some things about him and others who retain connections to Judaism.

Songflight

05/02/2005 04:20:34 PM

Another sight that dicusses why Jews don't worship Jesus is on; whatjewsbelieve.org All Jews are responsible for their own actions good and bad. Jews also believe that all people have this responsiblity. The idea of someone dying for someone's sins is abhorrent. Everyone one of us has the ablity to raise our spiritual plan of existance through our deeds. We help each other, not worship each other.

LeahOne

05/02/2005 04:13:57 PM

ECLady, I'm with you and Mr Arn. I'm perfectly willing to accept the proposition that EACH religion is completely TRUE as pertains to its own followers. Sure, there are obvious instances where that seems 'mutually exclusive'. I contend that the 'conflict' is due to our limited human understanding.

eastcoastlady

05/02/2005 04:05:32 PM

Many folks here are talking about what's "right". These discussions are a matter of faith. FAITH, FAITH, FAITH. By definition, difficult or impossible to prove. So, I'm with Mr.Arn, and I wish only to have civilized discussion without someone else telling me why I'm wrong and they're right.

mr_arn

05/02/2005 03:55:21 PM

Two more pennies worth into this discussion. I would suggest looking at this URL http://www.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/judaism/jesus.html which, IMHO gives the arguments missing from Klinghoffer's interview. Also worth reviewin is the Jews for Judaism URL: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html I would think, since the whole thing was started from Jewish concepts, it is from things Jewish the "true" (if in theology there are absolute truths, acceptable to all) prophesies and criterea will be found. After all, Democrats do not rely on Republicans to build their political platforms (or vice-versa). The beauty in this sire is that we can discuss this topic and still be civilized.

LeahOne

05/02/2005 02:21:15 PM

Is keeping Kosher and being 'shomer Shabbat' what is most important about Judaism? I certainly don't think so, but then I'm a Pahrisaical type and don't think ritual is of paramount importance.

RedEmma1

05/02/2005 11:09:01 AM

And finally, my own rabbi, Daniel Leifer, z'l", used to say that it is no less Jewish to believe that Jesus was the messiah than not to believe in G-d or a messiah at all.

RedEmma1

05/02/2005 11:07:20 AM

I agree with Klinghofer that we Jews tend to get a tad hysterical when confronted with repeated discussions and images of Jesus. But it's kind of understandable, considering that ever since Constantine, through the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Holocaust, we have been getting persecuted, tortured, and murdered in his name. Wherever he is, Rabbi Joshua, the Jewish martyr, (his real name at the time) is probably weeping over that.

RedEmma1

05/02/2005 11:04:58 AM

Jesus was a rabbi, whose opinions mostly followed Bet Hillel (except about divorce, where he comes down with Bet Shammai.) Most of what he is quoted as saying in the gospels is either recycled Hillel or recycled Isaiah. And (to paraphrase Maurice Samuel) to the extent that what he said was Jewish, it was not new, and to the extent that it was new, it was not Jewish. Many modern scholars, both Jewish and Christian, agree that many of the sayings attributed to Jesus in the gospels which are not recycled Hillel/Isaiah are later interpolations.

RedEmma1

05/02/2005 11:02:40 AM

Two points Klinghoffer doesn't make: first, the Tradition has no problems with the idea that Jesus performed miracles, because the Tradition just doesn't consider miracles very important. So okay, he was a miracle worker, so what? The Talmud is replete with stories about miracles, mostly introduced for reasons unrelated to any importance of the miracles themselves. And second, Jesus was only one of literally thousands of Jews of that time who were crucified by the Romans for the Sanctification of the Name. I have no trouble accepting Jesus as one of those thousands of Jewish martyrs. But he was no more a messiah than any of the other thousands.

theprinterlady

05/02/2005 11:01:46 AM

I was raised Fundamental Christian, something I have been for 44 years. For the last year I have been studying Judaism and the roots of Christianity. To all the Christians out there - it's homework time. Before you decide if the Jewish Faith is "right" or "wrong", before we continue to denigrate their religious beliefs, we need to come to grips with the realities of Christian history. Read Paul Johnson's "A History of Christianity"; Herman Wouk's "This is My G-d"; Benjamin Blech's "Complete Idiot's Guide to Judaism" and you will come to realize that these are TWO SEPARATE RELIGIONS...and if you take Jesus (a pious Jewish man) at his word, then we need to treat his Jewish brothers with respect...and we might even learn something.

eastcoastlady

05/02/2005 08:39:21 AM

as a Christian, I follow the teaching of Jesus... but I think I can see that for persons who have other faiths, the Christian faith may not be too compelling... Dear GIAHeretic, Once again, I thank and commend you on your open mindedness and understanding of others' points of view.

eastcoastlady

05/02/2005 08:23:54 AM

lauramushkat, I guess you haven't much been the victim of those trying to convert you, telling you the error of your ways and why you're going to hell for not believing in Jesus. The ignorance is very real, that of (some) Christians' view of Judaism and why we cannot possibly accept Jesus as Messiah. I'm surprised to read what you wrote about wanting to sell a book. Klinghoffer is not the first by far to explain why Jews don't accept Jesus, but not enough people read it (or take it to heart) to understand that there really is another point of view equally valid as their own.

bekalc

05/02/2005 04:01:23 AM

There could easily be another book which could say why Early Hebrew Christians rejected Judaism. They really are two different religions. Christians spring from a group of Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah. The earliest converts were Jewish, but eventually them and the Gentile converted and assimiliated. This especially happened because (historically) Christians were kicked out of the synagogues. Eventually anti you have a split bad blood does develop.

Beliefnet_Tiger

05/01/2005 08:46:32 PM

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Drinne

05/01/2005 02:03:17 PM

I have been evangelized my entire life and am still being actively invaded by people questioning my religion today. This is not just a book to sell - hopefully - it's a book that will stop people from repeatedly knocking on my door when they see a mezzuzah. I grew up assimilated and my mother who never read Torah told me that the Old Testament was our Torah - and gave me one to study - well when I was 26 and read Torah for the first time I was shocked - they are not the same book at all in a hundred ways - like sisters that look similar but are very different. There must be a recognition that these are DIFFERENT religions. There is truly no such thing as Judeo-Christian any more than there is Judeo-Islam or Christian- Islam. Hopefully both Jews and Christian will realize this and stop looking to each other for validation and definition and study for their own ethics and history. Hoepfully this book might make that clear.

lauramushkat

04/30/2005 11:55:03 PM

"why jews don't except jesus" is probubly of interest, as the author says if I read right, mostly to Christians. the same could be asked of Mohammed or Buddah or Confucious. Why should we even think about any of them? Like anyone else we live our daily lives. When I t hink about how to practice a religon I think of the one I care about-my own. I never think of the gods of othersw. Why would I. They have no bearing on my life. Except for missionary types I am sure non-Jews are too busy with their own lives. I bet they do not care if we reject their man/god or not. Sorry, but it looks like David has tried to make a topic that will sell a book. If it is like the article I do hope he has other sources of income. I find the article almost silly in its self importance. I found this article disappointing in all ways. Better luck next article David! Laura

Beliefnet_Tiger

04/30/2005 10:00:53 PM

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amnacar

04/30/2005 09:55:09 PM

In Jewish eyes, Jesus does not fulfill the plan of salvation. Salvation already is by the convenent that was accepted by Israel through Moses on Sinai. The rest is simply the mission of the Jews. Christian supposed "ignorance" of this fact always irritates me. If a Christian wishes to be saved by Jesus then so be it. But do not bastardize another's religion to prove your point. Stand on the words of Jesus which from what I have read can stand on their own.

Faithdefender

04/30/2005 08:24:52 PM

In response to the last three posters (FavoredOne, Heff45 and Joftlieco), I would recommend you read Chapter Two of the Second Jewish Book of Why for a very even-handed explanation of many of the questions raised here. One specific note- many Jews are offended by the use of the term "New Testament", because it implies that their basic tenets have been replaced. It is not a question of exclusion, but rather the more simple notion of faith.

Heff45

04/30/2005 07:56:59 PM

It appears the main difference between Judiasm and Christianity is with the New Testament. Christians believe in the validity of both the OT and the NT, but relying heavily on the NT. Jewish people, on the other hand are exclusionary and totally disclaim the NT, even though they believe the OT is the word of God. Christians also believe both books are the Word of God, with Jesus being the Word. I don't think this difference will ever be settled, but we should respect our differences and worship our God as brothers and sister. Peace

FavoredOne.3

04/30/2005 07:50:10 PM

I am desturbed by David's thought that Christians believe that Jesus came to get rid of the law. I know that many Christians do belive that but that is simply not true when Jesus himself said that he did not come to abolish the law but to fullfill it. I also don't agree with him saying that we hold more weight to what the New Testament says. As a Christian myself, I can honestly say that I hold neither of them higher than the other because they are the same in what they teach. The New Testament is just an expansion on the revelation that God had been trying to tell us the whole time.

joftieloco

04/30/2005 07:34:22 PM

I agree very much with chujac. We all need to co-exist, and was hoping that this article could tell me a little more about judaism, b/c every jewish friend i ask, seems to be unable to tell me anything. the past comment was not an attack, but simply my questioning because the article has still left me confused.

windbender

04/30/2005 06:54:59 PM

chujac - Similarly, outstanding.

chujac

04/30/2005 10:15:15 AM

I appreciate the opportunity provided by Jewish writers to assist me in my understanding of their faith and history. I am a pastor of a Christian congregation and believe that relationships are strained because there is little or no effort to encourage dialogue between Jews and Christians. This should never be and "us" verse "them" issue. Believers use the Scripture, "Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.." as a harpoon rather than thier bases for their faith. How soon we as Believers in Christ as the Messaiah forget these words, " So in everything do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets". I am more interested in bulding a respectfull relationship with my Jewish friends, than trying to convert them.

abagail5

04/30/2005 09:49:43 AM

Thank you for thus message, it is hard to find info about why Jews don't consider Jesus the messiah. If you ask, they just turn and look the other way. Even in the History of World Religion Books I have read, it doesn't give clear answer.

jackturner3

04/30/2005 09:35:04 AM

What disturbs me is that Mr. Klinghoffer really doesn’t seem to grasp the Christian concept of salvation. He equates Torah observance to the Christian “having a relationship with G-d” and yet, it goes beyond that. 2 Pet. 1.4 says that salvation consists of participation in G-d’s nature, and clearly this is not something that I know of too many in the Orthodox Rabbinate would say as being what Judaism teaches as well. Indeed, in that regard, Klinghoffer is incorrect in saying that Christians are offering Jews what they already have in Torah since both Christianity and Judaism would say that Christian salvation is something entirely different; certainly it’s a different way of relating to G-d in any case.

Beliefnet_Tiger

04/30/2005 12:33:46 AM

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godisaheretic

04/28/2005 03:05:38 PM

LS: Or they'll say it's metaphorical. "Well, if it's metaphorical, then everything's up for grabs." that's right... and a realistic look at the way history is presented in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament gives good reason for taking much of it as metaphor or just plain fiction... in my opinion... as a Christian, I follow the teaching of Jesus... but I think I can see that for persons who have other faiths, the Christian faith may not be too compelling... so also for many persons, the Jewish faith may not be too compelling... most of the world doesn't embrace Christianity or Judaism... perhaps if believers of each would see this more clearly, there would be more humility and understanding... over us all, God is one... our metaphorical divisions should not stop us from respecting the beliefs of others... peace. David

KIND6004

04/28/2005 02:51:27 PM

This article, is very interesting explains how deeply rooted the disbelief In Jesus goes in the Book Why The Jews REjected Jesus. I guess Jacob Emden should be studied, to find out what he had to say about Jesus. The information in the article shows that the decisions were made at the death of Jesus. Something scripture bears out. Although interestingly enough the early church consisted of many Jews. The spreading of Christianity if the article is true seems to been viewed as flight versus spreading the word. Jews are finding lost tribes in this day, and time so it shows that their religion also spread but its not used as a reason to no longer believe in thier faith. I guess the book of Revelations showing extradinary needs for the salvation of Jews is correct. The article also indicates that most Messianic jews are not actual birth Jews. I do not think this is exactly true. I have met some. I guess if they wish to have anything to do with Synagogue, they have to keep a veil of secretacy.

punkinsdad

04/28/2005 01:38:47 PM

Perhaps my computer skipped a page from David Klinghoffers' "Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus". The article should have been titled " My View On Christians Because I haven't Got A Clue" Get with the program David, enough of the "used car salesman" jargon. Give some facts already.

Oceana2

04/28/2005 11:33:14 AM

I found this article to be HONEST and worthy of reading. I sincerely appreciated it. Especially since Christianity IS (or attempted to) tied into the OLD Testament which makes it Judeo-Christianity. It is their religion, their Exodus, "their One true God" - regarding "their" heritage and their people. We all need to Honor that. It does not make them right, not does it make them wrong. It simply is.

qtp3

04/28/2005 10:57:16 AM

I think the author is 'censoring' the truth on the official orthodox position of Jesus also. He did mention the old talmud mentioned jesus in Hell. But failed to share the truth about their depiction of mary in relation to Jesus. They called Jesus ben Pandera, son of a roman soldier named pandera. Refering that Mary was unchase and Jesus being illegitamate (there is another word the rabbai's used), which the Messiah will be legitimate with a father and righteous mother. Actually Muslims and Christians stand together in honoring Jesus and His mother but Christians view Islam as the oppisite while the evangelist cater to the Jewish community that despises jesus, weird to me. I think the author should not be condescending towards Christians risking offence, if ur faith believes something express it honestly...

LivingEZ123

04/28/2005 10:22:14 AM

European Christian’s censord Talmud, Jews never did. Judaism had spread throughout the known world and was "evangelcal" before the 2nd temples destruction. No censor could could ever reach all copies. There are no contemporary references to Jesus if he existed he was unknown to the Jews. Jewish academic centers were located in Iraq from 586 BCE forward. The Jewish cannon was closed prior to the assumed existence of Jesus. The word messiah is a reference to any king or priest. I.e. it means anointed. Going forward from Judaism to Christianity is impossible because it requires a complete rewriting of history, makes absolutely no sense to anyone already educated in Judaism. Study Judaism from Jewish sources and you will understand. The hope for a mesiah is not central to Jewish belief and has never been fully agreed upon or developed.

rbethell

04/28/2005 09:02:48 AM

Klinghoffer writes that When Jerusalem was under siege by Roman forces, the Jews looked around and discovered that the Christian Jews had fled across the Jordan to safe ground. That casts Christians in an overly negative light. These early Christian Jews deserted the fight because Rabbi Akiva declared Simon Bar Kochba (the fight's leader) to be the Messiah. Obviously fighting under the leadership of a Messiah they could not acknowledge was just not possible for these early CHristians.

lauramushkat

04/28/2005 01:44:51 AM

First of all there is a Jewish view of Jesus for every single Jew! In other words each Jew has his or her own opinion. David Klinghoffer picked a subject for a book. Period. He could research for eternity and not have a answer. I think he should be very sure that people realize he speaks for no one really. Jews are Jewish for many reasons including they were born Jewish and see no reason to change and on and on. It is a personal journey for one who is born Jewish. Different for a convert as it would be for a convert to any religon. As far as Jesus goes, he is as important as Mohammed or Buddah or anyone important in other religons. Interesting to know about and understand if I want to know and understand what others believe. That is where MY interest ends. Of all the articles I have seen on Beliefnet I find this the strangest. Laura

sinsonte

04/28/2005 01:36:10 AM

Could it be that Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah because he wasn't?

Tzipporah

04/28/2005 01:00:56 AM

jinxcat-- I'm dissapointed at the extremely negative view you have toward evangelical Christians. In this article, Klinghoffer points out that there is irrational fear of Christians and Evangelicals in the Jewish community. Although I don't share Klinhoffer's enthusiasm that the Christian community is supportive of Jewish values (and Israel--I for one tend to be skeptical of this support) I value the personal and buisness realtionships I have with Christians--including Evangelicals. I have had bad experiences with fundamentalist Christians in the past. Did I say bad? I meant horrifying and revolting. Thankfully I have had enough experiences in addition to these to convince me that all Christians, including missionaries, are not mean-spirited and insulting.

Tzipporah

04/28/2005 12:50:23 AM

Windbender-- There have to be at least some number of Jews who aren't certain why they don't accept Jesus as Messiah or there would be no Jews in the Messianic movement

jinxcat

04/27/2005 10:19:21 PM

"why we can believe he was a good person, but not the Messiah" I am a pretty good person, can I be the Messiah? The evangelical view that there is something wrong with people who do not follow their religion is not only ridiculous, but insulting. I have heard people amazed that someone would convert TO Judaism "after knowing Jesus." I have seen people yell out at the Thanksgiving dinner table "Even the JEWS will realize that Jesus is the Messiah!" That must be why evangelicals constantly bark their dogma at you - if you are exposed to it enough, you will obviously see that they are right. Good for them that they were born in the exact right place and time in history to be exposed to the only valid set of beliefs to exist since the beginning of time!

windbender

04/27/2005 09:28:26 PM

"For many Jews, tragically, that's (not believing in Jesus) where their Judaism ends." That's like saying that, for some blacks, the only thing being black means to them is that they aren't white. Unthinkable. Absurd. Who in the world is that shallow?

windbender

04/27/2005 07:58:46 PM

I never met a Jew who wasn't clear about why we don't believe Jesus was the messiah.

Matityahu

04/27/2005 07:14:24 PM

1. "Most Jews are clueless about why they don't accept Jesus as their Messiah" because most Jews are clueless about JUDAISM in general. But the rest of us have plenty of good reasons. 2. The person in the Talmud hasn't been established to refer to Jesus - in fact, most scholars say that they HAVE to be two different people, for example, the "Yeshu" in hte Talmud is recorded as living (because of his visit to Egypt under a Hasmonean King) 100 years BEFORE the Gospels claim Jesus lived (born after the death of Herod, died 30 or so years later). Also, the Yeshu Notzri was executed (hanged) by JEWISH court for idolatry, which would make sense of it referred to someone living when Jewish courts had authority; while during the Roman occupation Jewish courts had no such power. The passages were censored not because they referred to Jesus, but because opponents of the Jews (especially converts to Christianity) were telling Church leaders and political authorities that they refer to him.

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