The Real Spiritual Impact of 9/11
Americans don't go to church more often now, but 9/11 was still one of the most important spiritual moments in recent history.
10/27/2002 10:49:32 AM
Does God not love people enough to give them a second chance? Why does he cut of the first series of chances at a meaningless biological speed bump like death? Why not puberty or the millionth heartbeat? Why not after death, when their bodies decay down to the bones? Why doesn't God believe in freedom of belief? What makes knowledge of the "Truth" more important than a person's heart? And if anyone wants me to pray for answers, I'll tell you this: The answers came instantaneously: A truly loving God wouldn't care about a person's religion, only about their love. (That's love in the general sense. He wouldn't be so egoistic as to care about their love towards him.) And since I think it's in the article: Church attendance has nothing to do with spirituality. The most spiritual people I've ever met never go to church.
09/15/2002 03:19:37 PM
I know that God allows evil...why? Because God controls the universe...He controls everything He just gave man a free will which allows us to decide but He ALWAYS gives us a choice. So yes I do believe that He allowed 9-11 in order to wake this nation up. The Lord knew that all those who died had made their choice in life...Hell or Heaven. He will never take us until we are ready. It's just a shame that they had to die this way.
09/13/2002 11:59:24 AM
One good example regarding how people would treat God even if He was seen and His awesome works were beheld right before our very eyes can be found in Exedous. The Hebrews were encamped around arounf the mountain were God had made himself known after he brought them out of the land of Egypt. They saw the plagues brought on the Egyptions, they saw Pharoah and his army wiped out, they walked through the Red Sea, they were led by a cloud by day and fire by night... And the majority -still- choose to worship a golden calf.
09/13/2002 01:21:04 AM
Many will reject God no matter if they saw Jesus walking on water, or healing the sick, or saw half the continent fall into created by a earth quake because they have hard hearts due to what they are filling their lives with sin has such a hold onto them that without. Jesus and the holy spirit they are unable to throw off thier sinful natures and they begin to put more empahasis on a ball game then on where they will spend eternity. They scream and praise more their favorite football team rather than The Awesomeness of God. I hope that the shaking is not going to have to get worse in order to bring america back to the One true and living God.
09/12/2002 08:11:54 PM
Pt. 2 By stating one belief has no right to force their beilef on others implies that about anything under the sun should be accepted except anything that may counter. Wouldn't that then contridict what was stated about there being no right way? Problems come when people don't wish to acknowledge or accept that we do not live in a spiritual vaccum. That vaccum is filled one way or another. In accusing one of attempting to "force their beliefs" one is only refusing to accept the fact they want theirs to be accepted unchallanged.
09/12/2002 08:11:32 PM
scorpio398, Your beliefs are much in line with those found in various aspects of Eastern Mysticism. You believe there is no "right way"...thus are only adhering to your own beliefs. A Christian stating the same would not based on what the Christian faith claims. Jesus was no mere prophet and He was not just a "good man". He was and is God. Accept or deny this if you wish. I'm not the one you're held accountable to. By stating there is no absolute "right way" you are actually giving an absolute of your own by stating there is no wrong way. But since alot of the various religious sharply contrast, this is implying that actually none are true and must have been constucts of our own whims...and whatever religion followed is only a result of cultural influence and personal taste...nothing more.
09/12/2002 02:09:23 PM
I'm going to say something that may shock people, but is so important. because the total opposite has happened for thousands of years is a huge reason why there are so many problems in the world. heed this truth, and we can all learn to live and love in peace together. There is no one right way for everyone to live. problems come from people trying to force their "one right way" onto others. problems will lessen when we realise this, and stop trying to force our beliefs, and our "one right way" onto others. there is no one right way for everyone to live.
09/12/2002 02:00:14 PM
if 9/11 had an impact spritually, it's that it's making us realise what's wrong with religions and that they need to evolve now. but most people aren't getting it.
09/12/2002 01:57:38 PM
He was also vegetarian and today would probably be vegan.
09/12/2002 01:57:09 PM
Jesus taught He was one of many Prophets, and He studied in other countries and other religions. He taught reincarnation and other such things. These real Truths have been obscured by the church for long.
09/12/2002 11:09:57 AM
"What if Jesus never really said that he was the sole path to God? All of the Gospels save one were written by Jesus' own disiples. The other was written by one who obtained his information from the disiples as well as other witnesses. If you question the claims Jesus made of Himself do you also deny that many wittnesses saw Jesus after His resurrection from the dead? And if you question Jesus' reserrection how do you know then that you have the complete forgiveness of sins? If you believe there is no need for the complete forgiveness of sins, why did Jesus ever come? And why was the Gospel message proclaimed throuout the Bible starting way back in Genesis 3:15...right after the fall into sin?
09/11/2002 05:19:42 PM
To Cherev and Morn_Sun - What if Jesus never really said that he was the sole path to God? You rely on words from translations of documents that are centuries old, where the copies that have been recovered are many steps away from the originals. What if he never actually said that or meant that? I am a follower of Jesus and continue to worship in a Lutheran church because I love the community, and I love the teachings of Jesus. I believe he was crucified and resurrected not to pay any kind of debt but as proof of the truth. Jesus told his disciples, before he even went to Jerusalem, to go heal the sick, raise the dead and preach 'the good news' that the Kingdom of God is at hand. That means there was 'good news' to tell even before his resurrection. That good news is the same today for people of all and no faith - God is real and despite appearances to the contrary, is present in and through the entire universe.
09/11/2002 05:09:05 PM
Based on the Textus Receptus -the Bible in Hebrew, Aramaic & Greek- the assertion about exclusivity by 'morn sun' is correct. If any don't like Jesus' claim that he is the sole path of approach to his Father, then they should seek a different basis for a belief system from a source other than Matthew - Revelations. If anyone wants to live by different rules than are explcitly stated in the Bible, then they should 'shop around' for that other (other than Christianity) form of worship that suits them. There's plenty out there - Baha'i, Buddhism, Hinduism, Wicca... But keep in mind that, if Jesus was correct in his claim and about having God's support, such an alternate espousal is dangerous in the extreme.
09/11/2002 11:44:20 AM
"...My issue is with people implying everyone else is wrong..." You're understanding what I'be been attempting to get across while at the same time not. Christianity makes exclusive claims about Jesus Christ. Jesus being God, being as our Lord and Savior, and it is through Him only we have fogiveness of sins and salvation is at the core of Christianity. Christianity is incompatible with the universalist claims that all religions lead to god and everyone worships the same god. If you or others wish not to accept this as the Christian worldview, so be it. But it won't change what is whatsoever. And it won't change the fact that the only way to make Christianity compatible with the universalist worldview is to alter it so it's no longer Christianity.
09/11/2002 12:23:27 AM
ATTENTION CHRISTIANS! the word of God is mandatory for us. if you want to be a christian, then you need to become a lifetime student of the word, not wandering around pointlessly. the apostles even in their senior years referred to themselves as still learning. there are reasons for the bible-to tell us of salvation, our purpose for being, the love of our God, his commandments, and the certain outcomes of both our good and bad descisions. being a non-biblical christian is an oxymoron. instead of saying religion doesn't do it for me and throwing the whole process down the toilet-find real bible teaching. i dislike "worship services" because chuches to avoid offending fill 2 hours with everything but the bible. i prefer christian radio. there are lots of bible study classes on christian radio and records of prior classes. harvest.org has a long catalog of pastor greg laurie's bible teachings. the point is-God's children need God's word.
09/10/2002 10:19:02 PM
Who is stating absolutes and then doing 180's? Who said all religions are the same? Obviously they are not. I know many Universalist Christians and they are honest about who they are and what they believe. I never had issues with any definition of Christianity. It was the self-righteousness I had problems with. Your beliefs are great, for you. My issue is with people implying everyone else is wrong. You may believe they are misguided, but it is just that, your belief, NOT a fact. Take a lesson from curtsmithx who simply states what his views and beliefs are and that's it. I would take up the bible with it's authors however they are all dead and I'm not really up for conducting a seance at this time.
09/10/2002 10:07:39 PM
Morn Sun,I respect your comments greatly, but you were sort of lamenting that your comments are often debased by others due to your being Christian. However, many Christians, and you may not be one of them, rely on the bible solely as truth, and then think that they will somehow argue in a reasoned way with those that may not. What's more, those that argue based upon shared premises can agree that the other's argument is 'valid', even if they disagree about its conclusion. Not so anyone who's argument is essentially, "Because it IS".
09/10/2002 09:12:09 PM
I don't recall Christ saying 'look to a book for truth'. That is a popular intrepretation of Christianity, but is, in my opinion, less about Christ and more about the Bible. Some believe that the Bible contains truth, and some believe it reveals truth. See the difference? I believe that the bible is not, and cannot be the 'vessel' of truth, for truth exists with or without the bible, much as God does. And to turn one's back on the creation, preferring the safe confines of a book or a church is to have have missed Christ entirely. Better that they had never heard the name Christ than to come so close to Him and then be seperated by such wordly concepts as can also be in the stories and histories in the Bible. Would that it were so easy that a man had only to look to a book for all his answers. Fortunately, however, he can still find comfort in Christ.
09/10/2002 08:49:14 PM
"If someones chooses a mixture of beliefs then that is their choice... Granted. However, if someone were to state they were a Christian in which their faith proclaims Jesus Christ is God Himself and He is the only way by which we have complete forgiveness of sins...don't turn a 180' and then go ahead and state that all religions lead to God or all reigions are the same. Religions outside of Christianity equate Jesus to a prophet or "good teacher". Certainly not God. Thus, there's incampatability. If someone who claims to be a Christian wants to rather accept a Universalist worldview...at least be honest enough to state being a Universalist. I didn't make the Bible definition of what a Christian is. The Bible did. If you have issues on it...take it up with the Author. *shrug*
09/10/2002 07:28:49 PM
The impact of 9/11 is that we are forgetting whatever Christian heritage we had, and losing any true sense of justice, not only for internal wrongs but in foreign policy as well. I am all in favor of mercy triumphing over justice, but not at the expense of righteousness in general. We do not punish our own criminals in the U.S. except laughably, and we stick our heads in the sand concerning future threats from different corners of the world. I hope we are preparing for any future attacks, from wherever they may come. -- Curt
09/10/2002 07:22:42 PM
I like a lot of what morn_sun says (although I have not read all of the posts, so I cannot yet say I totally agree for that reason alone). What I see as the result of 9/11 is unity with apostasy (Christendom) and liberalization of mores (general). Of course, I am an ultra-conservative Christian by admission. So my worldview is consistent with my theological interpretation. Incidentally, I do not believe Islam is all that peaceful or loving. If the people who are making such haste to befriend and encourage Muslims in general, would stop and consider a Muslim theocracy in America for all of two minutes, they would realize it would far from utopia make. -- Curt
09/10/2002 11:27:01 AM
I believe that Arabs are not anti-Semitic. In fact, they are Semites.
09/10/2002 09:35:53 AM
Adoud- Actually I studied the bible first, then philosophy, then many other beliefs, then back to the bible,. At the age of 39 I came to my "senses" and now have my present system of beliefs. Which is right for ME and no one else. I now realize that reponding to some of the posts on this board is like trying to describe the differences between red and green to someone who is colorblind. Some minds do not have the aptitude to grasp certain concepts.
09/10/2002 09:30:27 AM
I am not offended by the bible at all, however I am offended by how people wield it as if it were a sword to take many others down. You can almost hear the saying from those tired, worn out bumper stickers, "I'm not perfect, just forgiven". And of you really want to keep the bible passages within their original context, you better brush up on your Hebrew sweetie, because MUCH is lost or changed in translations from one language to the next. If someones chooses a mixture of beliefs then that is their choice, just as fundamental teachings from the bible if the choice of others here. This does not make these people less "open and honest" or even "wrong". You are act as if you are fighting for the purity of all other religions, saving them from the "smorgasbord" and loss of honesty. Then you imply that your religion is the only way to go. And once again I have no problem with judging, but with your denial that "you" were not doing the judging when obviously you were.
09/10/2002 08:10:18 AM
This is from the article: There were other signs that come 2002, Americans didn't view organized religion as much help. Only 11.2% of Americans sought advice from a minister, priest or religious leader, according to a study by the University of Chicago. Indeed, while the pews were emptying out, psychologists' offices were filling up. Drinking and pill use increased, Beliefnet found, at the same time formal worship declined. Because we're so angry we don't know who to take our anger out on. We can't go down to the local Mosque and kill everyone ebcause we might kill innocent people. I'm angry. I have seriously contemplated getting deadly with these Muslims, but I don't know which ones are bad and that's frustrating. A minister would only tell me to turn the other cheek. I'd rather bust open some rag heads first.
09/10/2002 04:32:19 AM
And furthermore, out of Washington during the past year has come no indication of introspection or acknowledgment that the U.S. sees how some of its policies may be highly objectionable to foreign states and that some modifications might be in order. What we hear instead are chest-beating declarations of how America must wage a "war on terrorism" and continue just as it was before 9-11, principally it appears, we are to start shopping and patronizing the airlines again. Churches might consider fostering a consideration of how America can be a more acceptable neighbor. Or at least how to cool the passions that lead to terroristic attacks.
09/10/2002 04:30:29 AM
The increased numbers of church-goers following 9/11 probably included many who had forgotten just why they gave up attending in the first place. These folks may have quickly rediscovered the irrelevance of much of what issues from pulpits. Billy Graham solemnly assuring the National Cathedral crowd that God still loves everyone despite the evidence that there might at least be a lapse in His affections or some indifference on His part might have tipped us off what to expect.
09/09/2002 06:06:14 PM
Differences tend to separate, and to sit there and focus on differences shows a willful intention to keep people apart and separate, as opposed to being united.
09/09/2002 06:05:00 PM
(Speaking of, gdwtchg has not addressed where I stated I wasn't judging and why I should not be allowed to do so based on the foundations for my own worldview. Non-Christians base their own opinions and judgments on their own worldview...as do Christians base their own on theirs. However, the Christian worldview is often discounted and dismissed for the sake of the non-Christians's. If the belief that all worldviews are valid holds true...why is this one discounted?) How does this contribute to the effects of 9/11? Going by other postings the subjects of good and evil, absolutes, faith and how it relates to other faiths all are intertwined. In order for a discussion to take place the standards and their basis need to be acknowledged as well...not glossed over and dismissed and some would rather.
09/09/2002 06:01:28 PM
adoud, Thank you for your kind words. And I whole heartily agree that Scriptural passages should be kept within their orginal context to discern the meaning. I think it would be good to specify that yes, God's Word tells us to judge...however it needs to be dicerned the type of judgment. Matthew 7, Luke 6, and John 7 are very often taken out of context by some. The judgment they speak of is the self-rightoues and hypocritical judgment Jesus condemnes. "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." Other passages tell us it is not just our right but our duty to judge. "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
09/09/2002 05:43:09 PM
gdwtchg, It could rather be stated that the Bible is not accepted as truth by everyone. As for the "wedge between Christians and non-Christians"...seems to be touching on my statements I have made since the beginning of the discussion...that Christianity within it's traditional form cannot by mixed with other faiths as if they were all on the same level. To do so would be removing from its central message regarding we sinners need a Savior. "The wedge" as you call it was not placed there by my doing. It was there already. The claims that Jesus made of Himself seperate Him from all other religious figures. To state otherwise is to not acknowledge what Christianity teaches and professes. And you still have yet to comment on how asking individuals to be open and honest about their beliefs and acknowledge the differnces therein instead of mixing it all up into some spiritual smorgusborg is somehow wrong.
09/09/2002 04:26:14 PM
There are those that say in God doesn’t sink San Francisco into the ocean he will have to rise up Sodom and Gamora and apologize. He probably waiting to send the other states when they catch up because they are following close in San Francisco’s foot steps
09/09/2002 04:13:18 PM
Gdwtchg Why should you be offended by the bible. I will bet you have read many other philosophies that echo the bible and was not offended. For about twenty years I did the same as you and rebelled against the word handed down in the bible. I finally came to my senses after reading the new testament again. By then I was forty years old. When you realize the context of what Jesus did. The beauty and the suffering it surpasses any one of our times. The knowledge of such a person existing should please you not offend you. The bible is not the only historical record of Jesus. A Jewish historian wrote objectively about him. He was not a Christian. I believe his name was Josephes.
09/09/2002 03:38:51 PM
exileschild, Your question may be whether God orchestrated 9/11, but I was answering a sarcastic posting by Dukeo. In an earlier posting, I said that I believe that God exists in all of us, in every living thing. I also believe that evils such as 9/11 are the result of man's actions. I couldn't care less whether God destroyed Sodom or it was destroyed by a quake. I was only reminding Dukeo that the scriptures do contain accounts of destruction. It was quite a stretch for you to suggest that God may have destroyed San Francisco. You may have geological knowledge, but you wouldn't make my debate team.
09/09/2002 02:27:27 PM
llilja, "What rubbish. God does not allow terrorism? What are you calling 9/11?" The question was whether God orchestrated it, not whether God allowed it. I vote No, God doesn't meddle in the affairs of men, because God is a part of every man/woman, and it's up to us to callup the Godvoice in each of us. "God reportedly destroyed the people of Sodom and Gomorah... and flooded the earth to destroy everyone but Noah and his kin. So the bible teaches that God did, indeed, destroy civilizations. " And a study of Geology and/or archeolgy would show you that Sodom, Gomorah and the whole Dead Sea sit on a fault line of a major tectonic plate. Did God also destroy San Francisco? The Jewish people understand the value of story to convey a greater (than literal) truth. We could learn something from our ancestors
09/09/2002 02:19:07 PM
Barblee You are only partially right nations fell when they passed laws against Gods law not because they didn’t believe in God.
09/09/2002 01:15:28 PM
DUKE060101- I wasn't comparing the events of 9/11 to OZ. My comments were directed at the messages previous to mine in which God seems to rule over a scary world full of flying monkeys and melting witches. Did anyone really respect and love the wizard until they found out how gentle and benign he was? Oh, and love the comment about working for a newspaper. Your sarcasm had me in stitches. glorybelle- I am sorry you think I am "wrong". Obviously you know nothing of Asian culture and how much more advanced they were by the time westerners arrived. Mepistopheles- What can I say, it's been a lame weekend! Had to get my entertainment somewhere.
09/09/2002 10:49:11 AM
You people have way too much time on your hands.
09/09/2002 10:22:02 AM
I believe that people went to their houses of worship for comfort and to better understand what happened. The reasons they didn't stay have more to do with the outdated doctrines than anything else. God is a force, and a portion of the force is within all living things, nurtured to varying degrees. The myths that we must obey the church or spend eternity in a fire ... or be rewarded by rapture for all time ... no longer wash. Attributing human emotions to God -- revenge, the need to be adored, etc. -- are rejected by reasonable minds. I feel closer to God in a forest than in a cathedral. I am awed by the beauty and order created by this intelligence. If He isn't active in day-to-day living, it's because he's disgusted that so few are using the minds they were graced with.
09/09/2002 09:49:11 AM
Dukeo, What rubbish. God does not allow terrorism? What are you calling 9/11? Or perhaps you believe that the liberal press made it all up, and it didn't really happen. God reportedly destroyed the people of Sodom and Gomorah... and flooded the earth to destroy everyone but Noah and his kin. So the bible teaches that God did, indeed, destroy civilizations. Or perhaps you doubt those reporters, too. "The devil made me do it" is a cop-out. Evil things are done by man for his own reasons. Loving and obeying the directives of God just because He IS is better than doing so out of fear of eternal damnation, or to gain a rapture.
09/09/2002 08:27:15 AM
How many of you who believe the Koran advoactes violence against non-muslims have read it in its entirety? How man have read the Old testament? It seems to me that the Koran is no more violent than the Old Testament. Do Chritstians only accept the New testament or do they believe that the Old is also from the same Gd manififest in the new? To accept the entire record is to admit that in ancient times, God advocated violence (if we accept these texts at face value). The point I'm getting at is that I think it's uwise to judge an entire religion on a few excerpts from their sacred texts, especially when the texts are are old as the Koran or the Old testament. When we do this, we are making the same mistake made by the extremist Muslims who are responsible for 9-11 and of tyrants using christian texts to justify war.
09/09/2002 08:26:21 AM
To Barblee.....what civilizations have disappeared? There are 6 billion people in the world. Are you talking about the jurassic era or neanderthals? LOL To the person who compares OZ to the event, you are a very creative writer and should work for a newspaper. In regards to forgiving the terrorists...why should I? And to the religious individuals who believe that God allows terrorism....YOU DON'T KNOW GOD!! God does not allow what man's evil mind creates. God encompasses love, compasion and mercy. NOT EVIL.....remind yourself where evil comes from.......and to the christians....read your commandments.....THOU SHALT NOT KILL
09/08/2002 10:54:25 PM
That is where you are wrong.....non- Christian civilizations only sruvive because the Lord allowed them too. Besides where is documentation that it was non-christian and evn if it was.....they have faced their Creator. But I do say that the Lord allowed them...but I am sure they went through hell.
09/08/2002 08:21:53 PM
Sin and corruption and disbelief, OH MY! Sin and corruption and disbelief, OH MY! There's no place like home, there's no place like home.... The Wizard of Oz says there are many civilizations that have continued to thrive without Christianity. Toto concurs and would like to add that these civilizations have been following their non-Christian beliefs for longer than Christianity has been around.
09/08/2002 07:27:44 PM
I agree with some of the above opinions that the people who follow the Koran either want us converted or dead. I also believe that as a nation we have fallen away from God and 9/11 is just the beginning of what happens to a society that falls away from God. What has happened to civilizations that fell into sin and corruption and disbelief. They didn't last very long. They disappeared. Also, our future has already been written in Revelation and we are now, I believe living Revelation and what the future and God has in store for us is yet to be seen. At this time in history and in our lives, having a personal relationship with our God is the thing to do. Biblically speaking we could see His face any day. I personally want Him to know me and I want His Rapture when He is ready.
09/08/2002 06:50:06 PM
Also, I firmly believe that Islam is an "evil" If you remember Abraham had two sons....Ishmeal and Isaac...Isaac was the chosen son. And no Christianity and Islam are not the same religion.........the Bible teaches love and peace...not war. No where in the bible does it say kill those who don't believe in this religion. Infact it says accept all peoples. Once again God is using 9-11 to wake this Nation up...and it worked for a while but we must all pull together and make it work all the time NO MATTER WHAT! If we don't the Lord will just keep bringing punishment to wake us up. HE loves us and wants us to see Him as He really is a LOVING GOD. that is why He punishes us...because He loves us...and wants us to have every opportunity to choose Him and no one or nothing else!!
09/08/2002 06:49:22 PM
I believe that 9-11 had a great affect on this country! And I do believe that God did have part in it! He is using it to wake this Country up! At one time we were a Christian nation....our forefathers based every document that makes up this country on God and their believe in God. But we have become so caught up in ourselves now-a-dayz that we can't even see past our own noses. YES the Lord is using 9-11 to bring this Nation back to Him.....and He will do more and more until we realize and admit that He is the Living God...the Begining and the End... the Alpha and Omega....there are no "and, if, or buts" about it. HE WILL REIGN over us ALL. NO MATTER WHAT!!
09/08/2002 09:50:59 AM
morn sun- I never claimed to not be passing judgement as you did in a previous post. What I was pointing to was the hypocrisy of stating that you are not judging when in fact you are. That is the issue at hand. Where you are getting this "judgement" from doen't matter, you are pointing the finger nonetheless. And very self-righteous I might add with your judgement source being the "right" source. I openly admit to judging others. I have to on a daily basis in order survive; but along with this judgement is an honesty about my human condition and the need to judge. And what you are stating as "facts" may be facts for you but not for many others in the world today. The bible is not the truth for everyone and quoting passages as if they were facts for everyone only drives a larger wedge between Christians and non-Christians.
09/07/2002 08:35:48 PM
Morn Sun I am impressed by you. Your handle on God seems to be good, from what I have read, so far. The bible is truth and I see no harm in quoting it if it is in context of the rest of the book in scripture it waw written for. The bible, I beleive, tells us God loves judgment, but not that of condemnation
09/07/2002 08:25:31 PM
Illilja; You have many good points and I commend you on that. I would like to add that Ben Laden and other Muslims are stinking rich and don’t feed their own. When Afghans needed food and medical attention did these rich Arab countries come to their aid. In fact many Americans gave up the comforts of their homes to go and help. Along with some other nonArab nations. Did these Arab nations even offer moneys to help. So please don’t get an ulcer over Americans. I can find fault with any country. Man is corrupt. You are absolutely right man creates wars for his gain in the guise of religion. I don’t know to much about the Quran but it probably doesn’t say anything about killing people that don’t agree with you. And I know the Christian bible doesn’t preach annihilation of those whom don’t agree.
09/07/2002 07:53:22 PM
Pljspinner; I am from the hippie days of love and peace and the wars just continue. You are right Love will prevail, but not mans love but Gods love. I hear so many people wanting to place themselves above God as if they are in control. When you can’t even control what happens in your life how can you expect to control the world. You are no different then the religions you complain about. You want to inflict your will on the world. The only difference is they want to inflict what they think is Gods will. If you were to utilize the time you invest in meditation to investigate the bible (King James version) thoroughly you would find that all the prophecy is accurate to date and realize the real truth. People want to make God in their image. God is far superior to man and you couldn’t began to understand why he set things up the way he did. Can you make a bird to fly, or create a universe in perfect harmony and balance. Until you can I think that I will listen to Gods word first.
09/07/2002 07:31:51 PM
God is about love and forgiveness. Jehad is not. The following is an excerpt from a Islam friend. ""Jehad(fight) for God to make be Muslim" is the main pillar of Islam. It is their goal to convert and or destroy those that do not except Muslim faith. I get tired of hearing about the Christian Holy Wars. These were not real Christians and did not follow the teaching of the bible. In any event I believe that Jehad is or a near equivalent of the Christian Holy Wars. Raping and pillaging in the name of Christ is not what he had in mind. God is love mercy and forgiveness. These are the things that I have become more aware of since 911. This does not mean I am not cautious about my Islam brother. I have Christian friends guilty of lessor sins that I am leery and cautious about. Until Christ comes and sets them straight their intentions are not good and they have no respect for you. This I can equate from conversations with Muslims. They are civil but hold this prejudice.
09/07/2002 07:27:00 PM
Organized religion has been the cause of wars and killing since the beginning. I think many people are rejecting religion in favor of their own private spirituality which allows them to love unconditionally all people. I am part of a large group of women who meditate daily for peace, love and global harmony. We also meditate together regularly and many of us belong to groups who meditate together regularly. I think there is a huge movement towards this type thing and it can't be measured easily. I'm very optimistic that love will win out in the end against war.
09/07/2002 07:13:47 PM
Rainy day freinds. I call these part time Christians. the ones that claim they are Christians but the only time they have for God is when they are in need. I wonder how much time God will have for them when it is really important. I guess it is a good thing He is a merciful God.
09/07/2002 07:08:18 PM
I have not read the whole article and hope I am not being redundant. It does not surprise me that people in time of crises call on God and soon afterwards forget Him. I remember reading an article about a man attacked by a white shark. The shark had his head in his jaws. The man told the news paper I cried Oh God please make it let go?" In his next sentence he said I don’t know why, but he let me go.
09/07/2002 06:13:26 PM
I would say that 9/11 has brought out some of the best and some of the worst in Americans. Overall, we have become more willing to help each other, but the big problem is that many people are starting to create enemies where there aren't really any. As a Spiritual Atheist, I've found an opporitunity to "fight" for love and understanding by posting at places such as these, trying to convince people that you can't stereotype a religion, often using my own form of Atheism as an example: I believe in a morality based on love, I believe in souls and an afterlife, and I believe the universe has meaning. I am the near-opposite of the atheist stereotype.
09/07/2002 06:10:52 PM
(continued) Our response? Bomb the hell out of starving nomads, who had nothing to do with 9/11. What's the difference? They were doomed to die already. And while the innocent died, the villians may have escaped. Within our borders, our sense of justice decrees that it is better that the guilty go free, than an innocent be convicted. Why does that philosophy stop at our borders? God is getting a bad rap when we attribute the acts of men to His will. And I am disappointed in Americans who watch the administration wash its hands as Pontius Pilate did. Eat well tonight, America. Polish your car, and drive to your second home ... and don't think of the refugees living in tents...or the tots with the swollen bellies who are dying of hunger. Go to your house of worship and feel virtuous. Don't think of the directives of all religious leaders that we feed the poor. Do whatever you want, but don't attribute any of these horrors to God.
09/07/2002 06:10:05 PM
(continued)I was angry. Not at God, but at the greed of men who have backed injustices in the Middle East that so rankled the natives that they seek to destroy us. I stayed angry every time I heard someone say Ben Laden wanted to destroy our way of life. If by way of life they meant our overabundance, our unwilligness to give up the smallest of conveniences to assure that the oppressed of the world can eat, I could agree. But they usually imply that Ben Laden hates democracy! How absurd. How obscene to fail to acknowledge that our actions in that part of the world inspired the hatred and loathing. (more)
09/07/2002 06:08:04 PM
I really don't understand anyone having a spiritual response to 9/11. It had nothing to do with God. I didn't blame Him for those deaths any more than I blame Him for the death of a child, or a dear friend to Cancer. (more)
09/07/2002 05:26:32 PM
Many if not most religions outside of Christianity teach that we are justified by our works and what we actively do. The reincartionists feels we work off our wrongs by living various lives for example. Other religions feel there must be some sort of rituals or rules to adhere to in order to bejustified. Christianity says we are justified by what God has done for us....not what we have done for God. You're responses seem only to add weight that Christianity within it's traditional form cannot fall into the universalist mix as is. Declaring otherwise would force one to deny what Christianity actually proclaims as well as deny what Jesus said about Himself regarding being God as well as His sacrifice on the cross in our stead so that we could have the complete forgiveness of sins. In short, to be dishonest regarding the Christian faith as well as to the other faiths one attempts to mix into some sort of spiritual smorgusborg.
09/07/2002 05:20:20 PM
In the post 9/11 American world there's been a need to stress unity in most aspects of our way of life to fight against the terrorism. However to dismiss the differnces in various faiths and call them all one is a fantacisim within itself. It's by other names. But it all boils down to the same thing: a belief that everyone worships God regardless of their faith or practice and there is no right and there is no wrong. This denies that God is a personal God and He is who He is as well as how He has chosen to reveal Himself despite. God is love, but He is also Holy and Just. Many want to embrace the former without acknowledging the latter. The fact that we are sinners and are in need of a Savior is repugnant to many people. But the fact that it's rejected doesn't make it any less so.
09/07/2002 05:08:37 PM
"by throwing quotes from the bible at people to point out the "error" of their ways, you are passing a judgement by proxy..." And you are passing a judgment as well. The differnce being the source of that judgment. I'm merely repeating what had already been written. Your offense seems to be not against me personally but what the Bible itself states and for me bringing it up. The Bible states what it states regardless.
09/07/2002 03:49:27 PM
semuhphor- I would like to know what and where these ancient documents from ancient Rome are since very little written word survived the dark ages. Have you read them personally? Who wrote these documents? How do they have genuine authenticity? What, pray tell, is taking "advantage of that act"?
09/07/2002 11:18:48 AM
It is also a historical fact that the tomb was empty. It is often overlooked that the tomb was guarded by Roman Centurions who took their job very seriously. There are documents from ancient Rome that document the FACT that the tomb was empty although guarded by some of Rome's very best. He did die for us. It is unfortunate that most do not take advantage of the results of that act. Isn't it wonderful that we live in a country where we can express ourselves so freely? Take care.
09/07/2002 11:18:22 AM
valueadder said: "That Jesus was crucified for us was a historical fact, just as Ceasar was a historical figure." Valueadder, that Jesus died is a historical fact, but so have trillions of others died. The act of dying does not indicate the purpose of dying. The "died for us" is an expression of your faith, not a fact. In peace and love, MsRational
09/07/2002 04:19:51 AM
After the attacks it was refreshing to see Americans taking a positive, and intelligent view of Islam. I took a group of kids from our Unitarian Church to a local Islamic center. I was suprised, and happy to learn that verbal and physical attacks on the local Islamic community were few and far between. Now the attitude has changed. There is a noticable tendency among Christian religious figures to attack Islam itself. Ive heard local, and syndicated talk show hosts make derisive remarks about one of the worlds great religions. One local host called the building of mosques, a "cancer". If Jesus were alive would he do this? I doubt it. Evangelical leaders encourage war, in the name of the "prince of peace". It's no wonder that so many people started to go to Christian churches, and then stopped. The probably couldnt believe what the were hearing from these so called spiritual leaders. Having read the gospels several times, Im having difficulty correlating these behaviors, and statements.
09/07/2002 03:16:13 AM
(con't) Oh, and as far as the forecasted "end of the story", does the term self- fulfilling prophecy mean anything to you? Some have believed it for so long, they are bound and damn well determined to make it happen. To all others on this board who have expressed compassion, love and a search for understanding, thank you. I think that is the best we can do.
09/07/2002 03:10:47 AM
Morn Sun, by throwing quotes from the bible at people to point out the "error" of their ways, you are passing a judgement by proxy; which is a judgement nonetheless. And what does fanatacism have to do with belief, or lack thereof in Christ or in "truth and honesty"? You certainly implied as much in one of your posts. beelikejesus, the only agenda I see here at beliefnet is the search for knowledge. Just because it isn't exclusively your brand of knowledge does not mean they have an agenda or that the rest of us cannot choose to read and learn on this site. I have yet to see this site "slam" Christianity, they just offer different points of view. I am sure that there are many other sites that will appease your need to stay within the confines of your belief. As far as the rest of the media trying to "deduce"?(did you mean reduce??) Christianity, well can you blame them? I don't see the Dalai Lama expressing complete ignorance or fondling children.
09/07/2002 02:35:42 AM
That Jesus was crucified for us was a historical fact, just as Ceasar was a historical figure. All historical records were consistent with the life of Jesus in the Bible. World scriptures prophesy of Jesus Christ. For instance, the Hindu scriptures prophesy of the Supreme God Prajapati to be crucified for our salvation. This Hindu Divine-Intercessor is also called Purusa, meaning the Person. According to the Hindu scriptures, you can only have immortality by knowing Purusa, the Crucified God.
09/07/2002 01:39:14 AM
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the attack on the towers was a trivial event. But the perpetrators sacrificed themselves and thousands of innocents in the belief that they will get a great seat in heaven with Allah and a private harem or something. All religions have had martyrs - which ones are in their desired afterlife, and which ones wasted their time, and their life, for nothing?
09/07/2002 01:31:56 AM
9/11 was not about religion. The perpetrators and the soldiers sent for revenge were made to believe that this was a war between religions ("good vs evil", just like Star Wars) - a common tactic of rich and powerful men (like Bush and Bin Laden) to dupe their not-so-rich fellow countrymen into risking their lives and murdering others. Interesting that they both had wild, alcohol/drug abusing lives until their 30's when they 'found' religion - perhaps when it became useful to their goals? While they sang of duty and honor, Bush hid in the White House and Bin Laden in a cave. Were they on the battlefield, practising what they preach? No. War and the justifications for it are just so dumb. Religious people can hold us up as special creatures ("in God's image" etc.) but war and the willingness to participate proves we are just bloodthirsty tribal animals waiting for any flimsy excuse to fight our perceived enemies.
09/07/2002 01:31:21 AM
I love when people say things like "Why would God allow Jesus (His only son) die for our sins if He truly didn't love us?" as if it is a question of fact and not simply their personal opinion/belief. Just because millions agree with a belief doesn't make it true. Every religion cannot be true so there are billions of very wrong people in the world. The concept of religion itself proves that humans have a massive capacity for self-deception.
09/07/2002 12:55:21 AM
I believe God is every word you can substitute for awesome, loving,and wonderful. I do believe that he knows your heart and will put you in weird situations to test your faith and trust in Him, but I now that He will guide you through whatever happens in your life if you truly believe and trust in Him! Whatever you are need of I know He will provide it for you. I thank Him and praise Him for every prayer request that I have before I receive it because I know that I am going to get whatever I ask for. For those of you who still have doubt about whether God loves or not just think about John 3:16. Why would God allow Jesus (His only son) die for our sins if He truly didn't love us.
09/07/2002 12:15:16 AM
God is loving, kind, and unbelievably merciful. If He weren't, He would have left us where we put ourselves-in total, deliberate separation from all that is good and right. God doesn't condemn us to hell-we choose it for ourselves. God only saves those who are willing to reach out for his life preserver-Jesus.
09/07/2002 12:03:51 AM
To the non-christians on this thread. Since I believe the truth lies behind the chaos I offer this analogy - when Christofer Colombus was trying to convince people his view of the world was correct there were those who told them he'd never make it to India going the way he was planning. The church was against proving the world was round - but it was more than that - those people were right - he never made it to India - but they were also wrong - the world was round. The truth is in the middle. If we can recognize evil for one moment, can we not agree on glory as well?
09/07/2002 12:00:37 AM
To the Christians on this thread - I believe that the truth of the situation is somewhere between what we can see clearly and what others not of our faith see clearly. God is a God of all and as such he cares and loves us all. This distresses us at times because we think we have it "right" - but Christ taught us that in humbleness lies the answer - when we force ourselves on others we lose the perspective that God offers and lose all chance of winning people to his way. Christ's way is the only way - follow it.
09/06/2002 11:56:25 PM
I admit that I also talk to some extent through my experience namely that my family goes to an evangelical church that teaches things that just dont make any sense to me who has more of a tendancy to reason than unthinking faith. also I find that if you take the flood myth and other myths literally wouldnt it make god a sadistic monster.
09/06/2002 11:46:41 PM
OH and God doesn't ALLOW any of this to happen...why do you think there weren't 6000 people in the towers that day...how many people have said they were "detained" or stuck in traffic....god was working overtime that day....saving people who's time it was not to go....GOD is LOVE...thats all no more no less...but thats enough isn't it....Religion has made people afraid....hell and damnation...could a GOD that is love even fathom such things...NO...there is no hell, hell is here on earth...dark souls never cross over...thats it. yes, there are dark souls in this world ... but the majority are not dark...
09/06/2002 11:43:28 PM
To KINGS CHILD...what the hell do you mean if you don't love god you aren't his child...shame on you. thats when you are his child the most...GOD never leaves you NEVER...stop making God out to be human, he is not he is LOVE PURE AND SIMPLE...it's when you don't believe and are at your lowest he is with you the most....my gosh, get a grip.
09/06/2002 11:42:44 PM
The morning of 9/11 my initial reaction was "You cannot disenfranchise a people in their own land and not expect it to come back and bite you." As the drums of WAR [Wrong As Right?] and retribution started sounding, I wondered how I might tell others that revenge, as Arthur observes near the end of 'Camelot', is "the least of all possible causes." While walking a friend's dog on Mt. Olympus [an actual 'mountaintop' area in LA], I looked at the blue skies and asked of God how to explain to others my perspective. On the breeze, I heard these words clearly: "Share misery, I will share misery. Share Joy, I will share Joy. Share abundance, I will share abundance. I will share whatsoever you choose because I am you and you do choose. Please choose carefully." Many still wonder the why of 9.11's alarm. I got my answer that day on Mount Olympus. GraciouslyOrganizedDesign would love for us to choose differently. I pray we do it soon.
09/06/2002 11:40:08 PM
Well, I didn't mean "religion" in general so much as the various churches in the U.S. And even there, I made some pretty sweeping generalizations, but they were based on my experience. I just think sometimes that church could be so much more than what it is, and that's what frustrates me sometimes. As for the stuff I wrote about Hell and so on, I suppose we all could argue that one for days; but this is a forum about 9/11, so I think I'll let what I said on that score speak for itself. Except to add that I think we are going to have to learn to be tolerant, even of the intolerant--as difficult as it is sometimes--simply as a matter of human survival.
09/06/2002 11:18:30 PM
sweetnessforlife is right in saying that when you look at religion you have to choose between boring and ignorance of reality not much of a choice.
09/06/2002 11:07:53 PM
9/11 did not strengthen or weaken my belief in God. It only pointed out that humans are still very capapble of murder and are still very capapble of rationalizing murder through religious doctrine. It pointed out that the human race still has a long way to go in maturing/evolving spiritually. If we as fellow human beings do not start accepting each others philosphies on whatever level(especially religion)then we will never progress as a species. Accepting each other and loving each other despite our different beliefs is the only way this world will survive and move forward. This is what I really came to realize from 9/11 and that is what I strive to do in my everyday life. 9/11 was a wake-up call to the human race. A wake-up call that clearly pointed out that intolerance of your fellow brother/human being will likely lead to further intolerance and probable further human tragedy. It is ok to disaggree with your fellow human brothers. Just don't harm or kill them because of it.
09/06/2002 10:10:39 PM
Brainzo, If you deny God, you are not his child. Its simple if you put your trust in God, and acknowledge Him as Lord, He will acknowledge you. If you don't acknowledge Him, He also will deny knowing you. Judgement is consequence of action; as is reward. No one is more adement about free choice than God. Choosing not to choose doesn't save you either. God is looking for individuals to stand up and say, "I know God is real, and I choose to follow Him". But, I guess what I say doesn't matter. Time is running out, and if I'm right...Where does that leave you?
09/06/2002 07:00:53 PM
" What kind of God would burn his own children alive forever and ever? " Theodicy is the explanation of the existence of evil despite God's omnipotence and goodness. "Malt does more than Milton can To justify God's Ways to Man." Have fun.
09/06/2002 06:11:41 PM
Chuck Colson addressed this issue recently regarding a major differnce within Islam and Christianity for example: "The Islamic point of view is that we are sinners because we sin. Stop sinning: You're no longer a sinner. But Christians know that we sin because we are sinners. It's in us. Our hearts don't forget. Our hearts are twisted. Christians believe that Adam didn't forget to obey. Instead, remembering perfectly well what God required, he rebelled. In doing so, he broke the relationship of love he had with God...Allah forgives easily because human sin does not affect him deeply. But in the Bible God is clearly offended and grieved by our sins. If the relationship is to be restored, it can only be by the sheer generosity of God Who offers His Son to die as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of His people. An integral part of a Christian worldview is an understanding of the nature of sin..." But within today's climate...one would never know a differnce existed.
09/06/2002 06:08:46 PM
I also fail to see contridiction in asking others to be honest and upfront regarding differing beliefs and willing to address the differnces between them. Stating that all religions are basically the same does a great disservice and shows ignorance regarding what those differing religions even teach.
09/06/2002 06:05:16 PM
hondo64ou, You'll have to indicate where there's contridiction. There's a sharp differnce between giving respecting another person as a fellow human being and respecting the beliefs and views held by a fellow human being. One states there is respect regardless of what that individual holds. The other claims that not only the individual but there faith and POV, not their ability to hold them, must also have respect.
09/06/2002 03:30:55 PM
That's ok, cursmithx! I'm starting to think it is a tired and hashed out argument anyway. :-)
09/06/2002 03:23:24 PM
9/11 made me realize that there are too many tragically gullible people in the world who are willing to kill those who disagree w/ them. It taught me to keep both eyes open and watch my back at all times. True believers are truly dangerous.
09/06/2002 03:00:34 PM
oops, I didn't see that you were addressing morn sun.
09/06/2002 02:35:22 PM
morn sun, You contradict yourself. On one hand you seem to have a grasp on tolerance and respect. Yet in your next post you insist that denying that Jesus is who he claimed to be and that believing all religions worship the same god is dishonest. You also add that no unity can be found. If we cannot find unity on the subject of god, then there is no hope for us. The one unifying thing we should have is our common relationship to the universe.Thank you for proving my point for me.
09/05/2002 10:51:16 PM
By the way, on the subject of why church attendance declined again, I suspect it has something to do with the character of the churches in the U.S. In my experience, the liberal mainline Protestant churches have extremely dull services--I know I'm generalizing, but that's what I've seen, almost without exception. And the conservative evangelical-fundamentalist churches tend to insult my intelligence with their dogmatism and anti-intellectual beliefs. Either that, or they tend to be slick suburban "megachurches" that are all flash and no substance. (Sorry to generalize again, but I feel it's a valid point.) It's because of the boredom on the one side, and foolishness on the other, that have driven me from attending church. Perhaps those who were initially drawn to church by 9/11 went through the same things.
09/05/2002 10:43:51 PM
morn_sun: What the people who don't accept your religious views, but who seek a pluralistic society, are dealing with is the fact that we have to try to be tolerant with those fundamentalists who are extremely intolerant. Can a pluralistic society be tolerant of those who seek to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of the world? It's an open question. Curtsmithx: What kind of God would burn his own children alive forever and ever? What could possibly be the benefit of this to anyone? How can anyone love such a God? You have a right to believe whatever you want, but if God is like this, I want nothing to do with Him. The God of my experience is primarily compassionate and forgiving, not vengeful. A God who seeks to destroy his enemies, is in my view no better than the terrorists.
09/05/2002 08:05:55 PM
Unfortunately, the truth from 9/11 will continue to be overlooked by those who insist their way is the only way. They will fail to see that fanatacism and zealotry are responsible for what happened that day. Which is the true fantacism: Those who believe and profess Jesus is who He claimed to be, are open about their beliefs, and are willing to cite differnces between Christianity and other faiths... ...or those who dismis what Jesus said of Himself and would rather state that he was merely a good man, a teacher, or a prophet then say that they worship the same God as Christians do. (Even while denying the Jesus Himself claimed to be God.) Or those that stare that all religions worship the same God and all religions are simply all differnt paths to the same destination? And which is being more truthful and honest?
09/05/2002 07:54:06 PM
There's a rather large differnce between respecting those who adhere to other faiths...and respecting those actual faiths themselves. True tolerance acknowledgesthe dignity and the right for respoect between various people regardless of beliefs. True tolerance acknowledges differnces that exist and welcomes open and honest dialogue regarding those differnces. It does not call for respect or acceptance of those beliefs but a civil acknowledgment those beliefs exist. A false tolerance attempts to force some type of unity where no true unity can be found, deny those differnces between faiths even exists, and attempts to ostracize anyone who says otherwise.
09/05/2002 05:24:25 PM
Unfortunately, the truth from 9/11 will continue to be overlooked by those who insist their way is the only way. They will fail to see that fanatacism and zealotry are responsible for what happened that day. They will continue to berate and belittle anyone and everyone who does not agree with their religious beliefs whether those beliefs are Christian or something entirely different. The chasm between those of us who choose to be tolerant of all beliefs and those of us who choose absolutism of faith is ever-widening and ever-deepening. I wish that the day would come when everyone's ideals and beliefs were respected. It never ceases to amaze me just how stupid human beings can be.
09/05/2002 01:47:56 PM
I have been a Bible believing, church going, christian for 25 years now and never in any of those years have I seen more NEW believers come to be saved and also being like sponges when it comes to hearing the Word of God. I am also seeing an onslaught of Catholics coming into our fellowship. I have lived in every region of this country and have never been exposed to this. We would like to attribute it to 9/11, but hasn't the God of all gods already given the forcast and the end of the story? Scripture is clear if anyone is interested in reading it to prove or disprove our little theories. I also agree with the previous writer that suggests that the staff of Beliefnet has an agenda, I could sense it all over the writings and the webpage. Isn't there anything left in the form of media that isn't trying to slam or deduce the christian beliefs?
09/05/2002 12:53:13 PM
contd...When the quick fix didnt come, most turned to what they had turned to before to numb the pain quickly, beit drugs, booze, sex, whatever it is...God was there when they went to church after 9/11 but when He didnt show up like they expected or wanted Him to, then its back to the world... hopefully some seeds were planted though that will surface later in people's lives.... God will be waiting when they return w/ open arms...
09/05/2002 12:52:57 PM
i think clif hit on the answer in the decline of church attendance, etc. People who normally dont go to church went after 9/11 looking for the quick fix that this society is so used to.. looking for the spiritual bandaid to make it "feel" better than going for the healing of the entire sore inside... and its doesnt work like that...God provides comfort and answers and love, but He wants you to come to Him w/ an earnest heart, seeking Him and expecting to find Him thru knowing Christ... once you do this, and you keep getting closer to Him, He provides the comfort, peace, love, "healing" that was sought so ferociously after 9/11.
09/05/2002 11:00:41 AM
There IS one crucial lesson that 9/11 taught, and I genuinely wonder how many people have seen it. When those planes took down the towers, people died. Christian, Jew, aethist, straight, gay, firemen, businessman or bum...didn't matter. They all died together. No one was raptured. No one was glorified. No one was specifically spared or killed because of their race, religion or sexual orientation. No religion was validated by it. None was invalidated either. Innocent people, good and bad, of all faiths, simply died. THAT is a lesson to me.
09/05/2002 10:50:20 AM
I can see no "spiritual impact" caused by 9/11 - except perhaps to reveal the true and deep divisions that continue to grow among the American people. The fundamentalists, led by Jerry Falwell blamed all of us who don't believe in HIS version of legalistic Christianity, while others blame people like him of all faiths for fanatacism and violence. Others criticise American or Israeli policies for setting the whole thing off.
09/05/2002 03:43:11 AM
"...i was under the impression the bible was against people passing heaven and hell judgements." The Bible is against passing of hypocritical judgments when if one were to look back at the actual context. (Matthew 7, Luke 6, and John 7) It's rather clear on matters regarding Heaven and Hell. Although very true that only God can see a heart a person leaving Him the only one to make the decision, referring to what God has already stated through His Word isn't making a judgments...it's merely repeating what had already been stated. John 3:16-18 would be a very good example. As for the other topic: World peace would be great. But, it's not realistic. While we would be singing "We Are The World" other countries could very well be plotting it's next attack that includes anything from bombs to biochemical warfare. It's just the type of world we live in.
09/05/2002 03:26:32 AM
"Do we really believe that everything can be made right if we just "get the bad guys"?" You're reight in thinking that killing others will not bring the dead back. However, it may save other lives. War was declared on America on 9/11 by the terrorists as well as those who support them. What the terrorosist did was -wrong-. Unfortunately, these days not many people seem to accept that there is good and there is evil. (If you don't believe me...ask those Americans who are dead set on teaching that Americans ourselves are the ones at fault. There are those who say this.) I will state however that American policy is rather hypocritical. America is fully justified to bypass peacetalks and agree to enter the arena of war...but then often tells other contries who deal with the horror of terrorism and suicidal murderers on a daily basis to have "peace talks"?
09/04/2002 08:34:20 PM
ummmm... clif, I wasn't talking about a Bong. It's an old Indian "thingie". Smoking a "Peace Pipe" is what I was referring to. Oh well.... This post is for those who haven't "Bonged" yet. For the record, we are a so-called "bastion of freedom". Sad as it is, because I've had to serve in uniform during these particular times, America and all of it's wealth owes it to our neighbors to rid oppression from the earth if possible. Yes, we are always somewhere hopefully helping a cause of Freedom. We have many "interests" in the world and if we are to remain Numero Uno on this planet, we must protect our "interests".
09/04/2002 08:33:07 PM
cont. This is like investing your money in the right market. You want your money to grow and you protect your interests. If you own a piece of property with a home on it, you want good neighbors and you will protect your neighborhood with a vigilance of sorts. I like being #1 because I have been to #10 and #30 and so on. Trust me, we're in the right place. Be glad someone is good enough to die for your "interests" and remember, we would not be in Afghanistan and the "collaterals" would still be with us if it were not for their welcoming bin Laden and his money. It ain't about religion. ts
09/04/2002 07:35:50 PM
ts, I'm not sure when we did the "give peace a chance" thing since America is probably in war about as much as we are at peace. Trust me, if we could all just "get a bong" I'd bring the good stuff. I'm just saying we as citizans should ask more questions. Speaking of bringing criminals to the justice they deserve, isn't that someOne else's job? And what about the innocent Afganis that have died don't you think their brothers and children want to kick somebody's ass all over the place? I'm not offering any viable solutions here, I just like to ask questions.
09/04/2002 07:25:26 PM
And on a more spriritual note (since this is beliefnet) 9-11 had a fantastic initial awakening within me. I felt compelled to read the Bible, to fast, and go to church. All that came and went very quickly just like it did for a lot of others judging by this article. Why, because it didn't provide the immediate satisfaction that I have become so accustomed to in other aspects of life. 9-11, for me did at least light a spark for knowledge, wisdom, and closeness to God which I continue to kindle. 9-11 also has made me search for the commonalities of all religions to find the underlying truth. This, of course, is an endless pursuit. (thanks for your help beliefnet)
09/04/2002 07:22:36 PM
clif, Not to be argumentative, but I think we did the "give peace a chance" thing and they attacked us. This does not sound like collective bargaining nor smoking a pipe together. When someone purposely drives planes into two 110 story skyscrapers and the Pentagon and another deep-6's in the outback of Pennsylvania, I'd say it was well time to get up and kick somebody's ass all over the place. It's not all about Patriotism that people are dying for, they're dying to help bring some criminals to justice or death as they well deserve. ts
09/04/2002 07:07:57 PM
Anyway... Ed, As usual, good to see you again old friend. Is this a good sign? I read your piece on "cleric foolishness". I agree with you whole-heartedly about the things being said by Falwell and Robertson. Realizations, no matter how crazy they are or how profound they are do not always belong on TV or in public's face. Some things are better left unsaid by some folks. I don't think they can help themselves though. They're performers. In defense of their intuitiveness, or lack thereof, I haven't heard this from the Pulpit. I think it's being caught up as a celebrity, I hope it is anyway. ts
09/04/2002 07:02:18 PM
I think 9-11 did bring out some good things in Americans: their kindness, willingness to help others, their ability to pull together as a people. Instead of being a shining beacon of the most diverse culture in the world pulling together and working out peaceful solutions we jumped at the chance for vengence (as if that would solve the underlying problem). And all we have seen since 9-11 were United We Stand...Divided we fall...etc. It makes me sick to think that Americans (of all people) can follow a government so blindly and without asking more questions. Can violence really solve terrorism? How can dying for your country be more moral than dying for a belief in God? If being against more war makes me anti-American, anti-Semitic, or whatever that is fine by me. I say stop the BUSHIT now before it gets too out of hand. Why can't PEACE = PATRIOTISM for a change?
09/04/2002 05:56:18 PM
9/11 did not impact my faith in God... It did, however, compromise my faith in America and American culture... I was in Washington for September last year, and after the atack every one in that city was devastaded. And then our president had the nerve to get on national television and tell us that he would avenge the deaths of those who had died... that there would be retribution. Is this how shallow we are? Do we really believe that everything can be made right if we just "get the bad guys"? Do we really believe that "winning the war against terrorism" will make anything that happened on the elleventh better? Do we value the lives lost so little that we think we can compensate for their loss by exacting petty vengence? And to make matters worse... now we are engaged in something aproaching a "holy war"... the Christian world vrs. the Islamic world. We've all regressed and started thinking in simplistic, childish terms... its the good-guys vrs. the bad guys.
09/04/2002 05:27:39 PM
(cont.) America as a whole has recognized religious fanaticism for the cancer that it is. Whether that cancer is dressed in the robes of an insane Islamic “cleric” or in the suit and tie of a pseudo Christian “pastor” is unimportant. We are smart enough to realize that when a knuckle-dragger comes trying to recruit us to Evil in the guise of religious “truth” (be it Muslim, Christian, or any other disguise), we know what to do. We fight like hell against the forces of barbarism, whether such forces are represented by Stalin, Hitler, bin Laden, or Falwell. We fight. We’re tired of barbarism, and we sure as hell are not going to let home-grown barbarians speak for us.
09/04/2002 05:26:56 PM
It's important to recognize that America's own home-grown Taliban, represented by pseudo-patriot, "Christian" leaders Jerry Falwell and his boot licking acolyte, Pat "I heartily concur" Robertson, have been totally and absolutely rejected in their hate-saturated attempts to hang responsibility for 9/11 on those who dare disagree with their reactionary views. Americans as a whole are neither as stupid nor as evil as Falwell and Robertson think they are. There may be a backward, knuckle-dragging minority who believe in these two charlatans, but fortunately the rest of us have some sense.
09/04/2002 03:23:22 PM
Thank you for sharing, Cairpre. We don't think, as a result of 9/11, people are really interested in detailed, academic theology. That is contrary to whatever "message" there might have been in this tragedy. For those who insist on promulgating their peculiar organization of spiritual beliefs, to the exclusion of others, we ask: Why should the rest of us eavesdrop on what goes direct from your mouth to God's ears? Cheers! Lairds' Chapel
09/04/2002 02:55:36 PM
I think GROUND ZERO needs to continue to be hallowed ground. No particular organized religion can do this. The government can’t. It can only be done by “the people.” “The people” are creating something new. Some call it “the New Age.” But once a label is applied, it is no longer “the work of the people,” the definition of the word liturgy. Not far from GROUND ZERO is the United Nations building. The UN began operations in 1945, the year the atomic bomb was used to destroy 2 Japanese cities. Those two cities have both set apart hallowed ground for the world. Now, New York City has an opportunity to join them by allowing GROUND ZERO to remain a place where “the people” can come together somehow to share a vision of a peaceful world, of everybody getting along, of religious and ethnic and class intolerance disappearing because “the people” simply won’t stand for it anymore. There’s work to be done, not constructing new twin towers, but constructing a global village based solidly on love.
09/04/2002 02:24:49 PM
I agree with bardmountain whole-heartedly. Love is the most important element of life. It is the Unity that binds us together, despite the divisions and differences created by organizing our spiritual beliefs.
09/04/2002 08:46:50 AM
To me personally, the tragedy of 9/11 did not greatly affect my spiritual beliefs. My spiritual beliefs are roughly the same before the event and now, although hopefully they've changed a bit just as I learn and grow. What it did do was help to focus my attention on what's important. It's so easy to get lost in meaningless things - is my boss mad at me, will I get that promotion, I didn't get an invitation to so-and-so's party, do I look fat in these jeans. These problems are not real in a larger sense of the word - they are problems we create for ourselves. The tragedy on 9/11 and others like it help one to see through the unreality of what is our normal focus and place our attention on what is truly import - for me, life, love, compassion, and attention to the present moment.
09/04/2002 07:48:32 AM
My heart has become capable of every form: It is a pasture for gazelles And a monastary for Christian monks, And a temple for idols, And the pilgrim's Ka'ba, And the tablets of the Torah, And the Book of the Koran. I follow the religion of Love: Whatever way love's camel takes, That is my religion, my faith. -- Ibn Arabi
09/04/2002 04:22:11 AM
And what has happenned on this very Board, we're afraid, is what happened after 9/11. Plus Americans have become somewhat immune to "emotional and spiritual shock". It just doesn't last very long. Our fix, our addiction, our faux cure, is to once again become all-knowing, self-righteous and superior. The sidewalk shrine does not want my money, will not call me names, will not teach my children to hate or molest them. So many people would prefer to just light their candles and put their flowers on the corner. Cheers or not. Lairds' Chapel
09/04/2002 03:49:48 AM
kind of narrow minded, don't you think? i was under the impression the bible was against people passing heaven and hell judgements. anyway, the reason for churchgoing going back down... many people have come under the mindset that it is a chore. also, when life is unstable/hard is when religion tends to be the most important. ever wonder just why people in the middle east are so religious? figure, to them, what happened on 9-11 is pretty much an every day thing... that's also why people in the middle ages were so religious... they needed some kind of stability. 9-11 was a big shock to everyone. once the initial shock wore off, people kept going to church more out of habit... then a little while longer, and they just get tired of it.
09/04/2002 03:40:34 AM
Well there is only one GOD.You're either worshiping GOD or you're not.Muslims arent worshiping GOD-that is the truth of it.You do seem to be realizing the true state of America.Yeah 9/11 got people thinking-but to many have not taken a strong stand-better to recieve a wound now than to spend eternity in the wrong place!
09/04/2002 03:23:56 AM
Christianity and Islam, for example, do not worship the same God, do not have assurance of their faith in the same way, and are radically differnt in quite a few areas. But in the post-9/11 atmosphere no one would be able to realize this. If anything, 9/11 has sparked many to be ensnared by a vision or a hope of a false unity based on a universalistic view that "it doesn't matter what or who you believe as long as you're sincere". The "Prayer for America" service at Yankee Stadium that presented all religions as if they were on the same level seems to sadly portray the general atmosphere of America today. "It doesn't matter what god you pray too...it's still god" as one poster once stated. Yet, the question remains: How can their be true unitiy if it's not based on truth and honesty. If one doesn't wish to confront the differnces of various faiths, then how can one state they can honestly understand and accept them as valid without knowing what it is they were stating is valid?
09/04/2002 03:23:40 AM
In many ways 9/11 made a heavy impact on how we Americans view the world. No longer was terroism just a daily experiance or threat in other contries...but was a threat in our own back yard. People sought comfort and wanted answers and reassurances. They turned outward...or at least appeared to...to something or someone outside themselves. However, in other ways, when the shock subsided and life "was getting back to normal" many of those same drifted back to where they were before. And this would include in spiritual matters as well. However, in all the calls to unity, to love, and to tolerance, there's not too much being said of right and wrong or a standard of absolutes by too many. Or a call for accountability for that matter. It seems that many want to take the opportunity to mesh all the world's religious beliefs together into a spiritual potluck without that much thought there are real and serious differnces between various faiths.
09/04/2002 01:40:05 AM
As Mr. Waldman and Staff suggest, "9/11 was one of THE MOST SPIRITUAL MOMENTS in recent history." Perhaps church and temple attendance have dropped because though highly spiritual 9/11 taught us about a spirituality that transcended religion. It's message was compassion for one's neighbour, love for one's country, and relearning tolerance as a byproduct thereof. Because we went to our church or synagogue to pray about all this we may have wondered if there would be a resurgence in religion, but this was short-lived. Beliefnet and others have served a wonderfully needed purpose in trans-religious education and tolerance. More of this is needed. What may not be needed is an assumption that we need to delve too deeply into our own religious faith, that we need to be parochial to be safe or right all the time to be faithful. This is a time of spiritual evolution. The spontaneous and transient sidewalk shrine is the more visited holy place than any cathedral. Lairds' Chapel
09/03/2002 10:23:31 PM
9/11 did not really impact me as much as most people since I’m Canadian but I feel very sorry for the people who lost their lives and their families because of organized religion and it's mix into Afghan politics, which is wrong to mix politics and religion into he same system. Before 9/11, I was a Deist and afterwards I was still a Deist so but I think I've given me more of a free thought stance because I've seen the evils of Fundamentalism and reveled religion and what maniacs can do t themselves for a bogus cause.
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