Girl Meets God

A convert from Judaism to Christianity is surprised to find solace among Messianic Jews.

agnostictheist

07/13/2009 08:57:24 AM

Would it not be more important for god to spread monotheism, than convert those by whom are the only ones who practice it? Is the unifying theme not that we all seek god incarnate on earth to have lions lie with lambs, swords to become ploughshares, and knowledge of god to be spread throughout the world like water in the sea. There is so much more that binds us than separates us, and it seems to me the differences are reconciable.

agnostictheist

07/13/2009 08:55:30 AM

In matters of salvation, when Jesus says those who accept him will have eternal life, and jesus is god, the same god of the old testament, than how can salvation be denied to jews, whose belief is placed in the the same god, so they do believe in jesus, just without gods earthly incarnation which warrants the name. Moreover, is it not ironic that those most obsessed with repentance and atonement for salvation, are the ones who deny themselves the quick solution of accepting someone elses death for their owns sins. Could this not be the punishment in of itself for not believing in Jesus? Does it not illustrate a devout, disciplined, and serious method to salvation. Why would god deny salvation to those to whom his earthly embodiement sought to join, exist with, and pray with? Would it also not be hard for someone to accept the existence of the earthly incarnate of god in someone who prayed with them, learned with them, and lived with them, where miracles could be explained away through the divine relationship with the same god for which they all pray?

Pazit

08/22/2005 10:41:29 PM

There is no problem, as long as you recognize that the religion you are practising is Christianity and that according to halakhah, you are not Jewish. Otherwise, I'd say to celebrate who and what you truly are.

LainiR

08/22/2005 06:50:55 PM

As a Messianic Jew, I don't see the problem of a Jew being a believer in Yeshua. Yeshua Himself (Jesus) was born, raised,life and died as a Jew. His follows, the first believers were Jewish and never deny that fact. The Church's roots are Jewish. Has one who's dad was jewish and mum is a believer in Messiah, I have the best of both worlds.

Elizabeth113

12/06/2004 12:24:46 AM

I don't see how Messisnic Judaism could successfully fulfill both Judaism and Christianity's beliefs. If you belive in Jesus as God's son, how can you be a Jew. If you don't, how can you be a Christian. Is there an in-between? A little help please?

d10r10

02/14/2004 02:08:17 PM

I'm responding to Payne, who said, "If you can show me that Messianic Jews get their theology from the Tanak and/or Jewish tradition until Jesus and not from Christian tradition, then I will give up my belief that Messianic Judaism is really Christianity in disguise." Try reading the book of Acts. The proof is all over that, however, Christianity is in fact Messianic Judaism in disguise.

Payne

12/29/2002 11:19:19 PM

doctorfrog, I agree with what you wrote in your response. Hopefully there are a few Christians today, such as myself, who do not want "to destroy Jews and their religion." I am not optimistic, but I do think there are a few. A few who believe, as I do, that Christian theological questions, such as "Is God three in one?", are not important. These were questions Christians fought over in the 4th century, and should not apply today. Hopefully, there are some Christians who are more concerned with keeping traditions and living a moral life than with whether you have to believe certain things to get into heaven. I haven't found too many.

doctorfrog

12/24/2002 11:24:59 PM

in conclusion, yes. messianic judaism is christianity in disguise, and was founded by a non-jewish missionary in an attempt to lead jews away from G-d and to christ, a man.

doctorfrog

12/24/2002 11:21:16 PM

the OT does not point to jesus; rather, the NT writes itself around prophecies of the OT, incorporating the religion of rome into it, with concepts such as the trinity ("triple god"), god in the form of a single man on earth, belief in that one man being necessary for salvation, and the virgin birth (isaiah 7:14 says young woman in hebrew) and because it's a virgin birth, he can't be from the house of david anyway. also, there's the matter of jeconiah's descendants being in the lines of jesus, when it was declared by G-d that no kings would ever come from him. (Jeremiah 22:24-30) confirm this with 1 Chronicles 3:17. thus, not only is it christianity in disguise, but christianity is the pagan roman religion in disguise, the same that destroyed the temple, and continually attempted to destroy jews and their religion through sword, libel, and messianic judaism, to this day.

doctorfrog

12/24/2002 11:18:41 PM

hi payne, i think i have an answer for you. i was a christian, when i realized it was idolatry, i became a jew. judaism is nothing like christianity, people think that it's the same but without the NT; but there is nothing more opposite to judaism than christianity. there are many eternal laws that jews must follow. (meaning they cannot be stamped out, or "fulfilled") the NT tells jews to give up kosher laws (Mark 7:18-19, Acts 11:6-9), break shabbos (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-26), tells them to drink blood, (Matthew 26:28), changes the method of forgiveness from repentance to belief on a man (which is idolatry), and instead of redeeming the jewish people, it caused them more suffering, oppression, and death than anything else in history.

r_christina

12/01/2002 11:02:19 PM

I would like to read an article about converting from Islam to Christianity. I am sure a few moslems would like to read it, and maybe more. Just my humble opinion

chase777

11/18/2002 01:11:57 PM

Fair enough! I understand your feeling about being asked if your saved etc.

Payne

11/17/2002 05:17:15 PM

All I have done is asked someone to show me that Messianic Judaism gets its theology from the Tanak and/or Jewish tradition through Jesus and not from Christian tradition and theology. I am open to hearing that. I'm not interested in hearing spin, such as others asking whether or not I'm saved, trying to guess whether or not I'm Catholic, etc.

chase777

11/15/2002 11:33:14 PM

I just reread some of you posts. Sounds to me like your a plant. Your statements have quite an "antimissionary ring to them". Your appeal to "history" etc. Instead of "sola scriptura". By the way Orthodox Christians place a higher value on "sola Scriptura" than tradition. Interestingly enough Orthodox Judaism places a greater value on tradition.

chase777

11/15/2002 11:22:36 PM

Payne, I found your statement quite interesting. It seems like you argue in circles. You come back to "Messianics" (by the way We call ourselves Messianic Jews or Messianic believers" not Messianics), ignore history. I'm not sure how through your background is with regard to Church history but I have studied Church history extensively and find your arguments quite weak. Perhaps people drop out of the conversation because they realize they are not talking to someone who is truely open and willing to dialogue, honestly. Check out Hugh Schonfields volume on Jewish Christianity, I think you will find it quite inciteful. Messianicly Yours Chase777

Payne

11/15/2002 12:25:18 AM

It would be helpful to hear historical facts, that can be verified or falsified, to refute the point that Messianic Judaism is really Christianity in disguise. If you can show me that Messianic Jews get their theology from the Tanak and/or Jewish tradition until Jesus and not from Christian tradition, then I will give up my belief that Messianic Judaism is really Christianity in disguise.

human1

11/14/2002 11:41:18 PM

Payne, we are obviously on different wave lengths...that's okay. I don't have a struggle with Messianic Jews, and additionally thought the article at the left was beautiful. So I guess that is why I'm not going further with you in this....I don't share your passion to get into anything more. God's blessings to you.

Payne

11/14/2002 06:37:33 PM

It would be helpful to hear historical facts, that can be verified or falsified, to refute the point that Messianic Judaism is really Christianity in disguise. If you can show me that Messianic Jews get their theology from the Tanak and/or Jewish tradition until Jesus and not from Christian tradition, then I will give up my belief that Messianic Judaism is really Christianity in disguise. See, my belief is falsifiable; I am not just asking you about your personal religious experiences.

Payne

11/14/2002 06:34:55 PM

Also, about being "grafted in." I have read on Messianic websites that people who are born Jewish are expected to obey the written Torah, while "Messianic gentiles" are not obligated to do so. Now, I can't see how this puts every believer on a level playing field. This just sounds like racism to me, since you have to be born Jewish to be obligated to follow the Torah, which is a priviledge. If I, for example, convert to Orthodox Judaism, I would be a Jew and be expected to obey/follow the Torah. In Christianity, every Christian is expected to engage in certain moral and ritual behavior different from Judaism.

Payne

11/14/2002 06:29:07 PM

You still don't share falsifiable or verifiable facts to make your point, which I did. You ask me about personal experiences, and you engage in ad hominim attacks about how I "come across as crafty" or "speak in cold and calculated ways...showing no sign of compassion" or show "arrogance and self absorbsion." Whether I trust you or not is irrelevant to my ideas and facts. Again, you tell me who is being evasive.

Payne

11/14/2002 06:24:47 PM

human1, You don't trust me? We are communicating on a message board! How much can someone trust another person when you're communicating through a message board. We can communicate ideas and facts, but I don't see what trusting or not trusting me has to do with us conversing on a beliefnet message board.

human1

11/14/2002 12:51:10 AM

Oh, my goodness....just reread your longer post...you were NOT expressing your faith...you were copying what I wrote earlier!!! My harsh words stand once more....skip my embarrassed and sorry post. I'm not. You're cold.

human1

11/14/2002 12:47:25 AM

Payne....I think I see that you struggle with not feeling as special to God, if you are not from His "chose people". Am I right? It is not even an issue....if you are grafted into another tree, you become part of that tree. If you were grafted in to the "chosen ones", you have become a member of God's chosen people. BTW....did you know that this description God chose to give in his word of the grafting process is entirely unique. Actually cultivated branches are taken and grafted into wild trees...in making a hybred. Not vice versa. Interesting, God defies the natural in order to do what pleased Him....spread salvation unto all people....Once grafted in....we are that tree. Why does it bother you?

human1

11/14/2002 12:36:42 AM

Okay.....here I sit eatting crow. I did not see the longer post beneath your short and most recent one. Completely embarrassed, as I should be. Also, I am completely sorry! h1

human1

11/13/2002 11:09:40 PM

I don't trust you, if you cannot share your beliefs.....this is beliefnet! I don't care to engage in opinions about others, nor opinions about history and beliefs about it, if your foundational beliefs cannot be made available. I have no idea who I am talking to...you play games, and come across as crafty. You speak in cold and calculated ways....showing no sign of compassion or wishing to keep peace. I see no fruits of the spirit, only arrogance and self absorbsion.

Payne

11/13/2002 10:34:26 PM

You won't answer my concerns about Messianic Judaism. You only ask me whether or not I'm saved, and you try to guess whether or not I'm Catholic. Who is being evasive?

Payne

11/13/2002 10:31:44 PM

Who is being evasive? My belief is that Messianic Judaism, which the article is about, is just Christianity in disguise. Your belief is that "Messianic Jews, are 'chosen ones' who accepted Jesus as Messiah....I being Gentile accepted Jesus as Messiah, too. I have been grafted in to the tree of the 'chosen ones' through my decision regarding Jesus" (10/22 at 11:54 pm). My belief is that this is racist because it implies that one race is "chosen" and that no one can join that race. A person must be born into that race to be "chosen." A person not born to the "chosen" race can only be "grafted in." Also my belief that Messianic Judaism is a misnomer because it is not Judaism at all. It is Christianity. Judaism does not allow you to worship the Trinity and read the New Testament (as scripture).

human1

11/13/2002 09:51:08 PM

Payne Why would anyone want to stay engaged in any conversation where honest questions are asked and cold evasive answers are given. We are not in a contest here! This is a place where people actually share their beliefs....if you don't want to do that....you can't expect people to be interested in sticking around.

Payne

11/13/2002 07:00:51 PM

human1, You say: "There is not much else to talk about." I suspect that means you will disappear or continue to try to talk about my salvation. It would be helpful to hear historical facts, that can be verified or falsified, to refute the point that Messianic Judaism is really Christianity in disguise. If you can show me that Messianic Jews get their theology from the Tanak and/or Jewish tradition until Jesus and not from Christian tradition, then I will give up my belief that Messianic Judaism is really Christianity in disguise. See, my belief is falsifiable; I am not just asking you about your personal religious experiences.

Payne

11/13/2002 06:46:28 PM

Another comical post from you, human1. Because I tell you that my personal religious life isn't relevant to the discussion of whether or not Messianic Judaism is Christianity in disguise, you doubt whether or not I'm "saved." You want to talk about my experiences instead of talking about what is relevant: history and context.

human1

11/13/2002 05:20:11 PM

It's okay Payne, even in withholding your beliefs, you speak volumes. A person filled with the gospel of Christ, who has found the truth, cannot contain himself about it. History is this....Jesus, and Him crucified for the sins of mankind. All who come to faith in Him as the savior of the world have eternal life. There is not much else to talk about.

Payne

11/13/2002 02:28:45 PM

True, my posts are not "crystal clear" when talking about my personal religious life. Guilty as charged because I don't think my personal religious life has anything to do with the fact that I am arguing that Messianic Judaism is really Christianity in disguise. I have talked about history and context, and it seems that you have avoided talking about history and context. You want to talk about my personal religious life: whether I'm "saved" or not, whether I'm Catholic or not, whether I study the Old Testament or not, etc. Anytime I want to move the conversation from my personal experiences and your personal experiences to history and context, you seem to have no response and/or disappear.

human1

11/13/2002 02:26:36 PM

Technically, before I get into trouble....Fellowship Church is in Grapevine,TX...which is part of the Dallas, TX area. We lived in the Dallas, TX area.

human1

11/13/2002 12:59:23 PM

Payne....as always we confuse one another. Having "been known to attend" a non-denominational mega-church says little about your beliefs. I have not only attended the likes...I was a member of Fellowship Church in Dallas TX while we lived there...and I miss it greatly!! It was at about 14,000 members when we moved, and growing. With attenders, we sometimes had 20-22 thousand. While there I met many curious attenders who were Catholic. If you are saying you are not Catholic, fine...I don't care so much. I ask because hearing of your chosen faith would perhaps help me see where you are coming from. Your posts are not crystal clear. That's all!

Payne

11/13/2002 10:08:59 AM

human1, Your post from 11/12 at 4:24 reads, "I don't care what lable you or anyone prefers!" See, this is what I meant when I said that anytime you bring up history and context to Messianics or those who sympathize with them, they just want to talk about their experiences, my experiences, and appeal to sola scriptura. You guess that I'm a Catholic. Did you not read the part of my last post where I said, "I have been known to attend an evangelical, non-denominational mega-church."? I'm just not sure what my personal religious life and who gets into heaven have to do with Messianic Judaism being the same or not the same as Christianity. You're still showing that you know very little about history and context, especially when you guess that I'm a Catholic when I tell you that I've been known to attend an evangelical, non-denominational mega-church.

human1

11/12/2002 10:56:20 PM

When did I ever claim titles and discriptions,adjectives are not useful?! You are so suspicious! I'm merely asking you two questions any believer should be eager to share!! What is wrong with you? My thoughts for you are this regarding your last post. In heaven, if you are headed there, I believe you will be surprised to find there are no denominations, divisions, etc. There will be no Baptist, Catholic, Messianic,....just worshippers of Jesus. Personally, I cannot wait! If you want me to guess, the further I read your posts....I'd say you are Catholic, and pretty heavily steeped in tradition, though not thuroughly satisfied. If I'm right, so what! If I'm wrong....that's what you get for being so evasive!

Payne

11/12/2002 10:17:46 PM

Actually, I have been known to attend an evangelical, non-denominational mega-church. So, yes, these questions are very familiar. I'm not sure what they have to do with history and context. I'm not sure what my personal religious life has to do with this discussion. One is being intellectually dishonest if he or she does not think labels or details matter when looking at what religion is generally or when looking at what a particular religion is. Notice how I described that church that I have been known to attend.

human1

11/12/2002 09:30:39 PM

These are common questions...and I wouldn't doubt you've heard them before....still I am interested in hearing your answers.

human1

11/12/2002 05:40:09 PM

Payne...technically so you know where I am coming from....I ended my personal discussion with you. Then entered a new discussion....that may be why you don't see a connection. There isn't one. I was reading your new conversation here, and saw something, provoking my question. By the way, could you read my post below to Medicrick, and also offer your answers to the 2 questions?

Payne

11/12/2002 04:48:07 PM

human1, 1.)"I'm curious. What is the Old Testament to you. Is it equal in value to you as the New? Would you say you spend as much time studying there as you do the New? " More comical questions! Read my post from 11/8/02, 11:15:05 AM: "Whenever you bring up history and context when talking to or about Messianics, they, and people who sympathize with them, seem to either disappear or avoid responding with their own historical facts. They want to talk about their experiences (and my experiences) and appeal to sola scriptura." I don't think it has anything to do with our discussion, but I do "study" the Old Testament. I read my English versions of it, and I read what Christians and Jews say about the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible.

human1

11/12/2002 04:24:20 PM

Medicrick, my passion is this. I don't care what lable you or anyone prefers! What I do care about is If you were to die today, can you say for sure you will receive eternal life with God?....and secondly, Suppose you did die today and find your self standing before God and He asked you "Why should you rec'v eternal life with me?" What would your answer be? Over that, I am passionate, over all else! With titles, music styles, robes or no robes, incense or not,etc......I have not the same passion.

Medicrick

11/12/2002 01:28:51 PM

Again I find that I feel compelled to defend Episcopalianism or atleast explain some fact that has escaped the author of Learning to be a Christian Jew. In both the Roman Catholic and Anglican traditions we have three readings plus a psalm lesson as part of the proper or daily office for each day. A old testiment reading a psalm a new testiment and then the Gospel reading. The lessons are all tied together having either a common thread or a contrasting thread. Sometimes the lesson can have a contrasting thread as well as a common thread. The sermons are frequently if not exclusively composed to teach the lessons from the point of applicability to everyday life and frequently the importance of words in a given context are measured by how the word is used which form of the word is used and how often it is used. Very Jewish after all

Medicrick

11/12/2002 01:14:04 PM

I resent that Episcopalians are used as a kind of target. I am an Episcopalian of the very Catholic variety. There are very Protestant Episcopalians. There are very Jewish Hebrews and there are very Christian Jews. Except for Paul, christianity if it still existed as a sect of jeudism would probably still be only a subset of the Hebrew faith. Paul in one sense made certain it would spread He did not intend for it to separate from his base religion. As Jesus said, "I came not to do away with the law but to complete it". Messianic Jews are like Episcopalians between and betwixt. We are not quite Roman Catholics and not quite Protestants. Our Messianic siblings are not quite Christians and not quite Jewish. The Truth is as Christians we are also Jewish. Jesus was a good Jewish boy who was raised, lived and died a good Jewish man. If we follow Jesus we are Jewish ourselves. I think I am going to ask David to teach me some Hebrew.

human1

11/12/2002 02:46:08 AM

I hate to jump in, I have found reading your thoughts interesting. You have moved on slightly from where I was here last. Payne, I'm curious. What is the Old Testament to you. Is it equal in value to you as the New? Would you say you spend as much time studying there as you do the New? I'm just curious. I will offer my own thoughts as well. I did not grow up studying it so much....but definitely learning the significant characters, stories, and the outline of Genesis. It has only been in recent years though that God has me involved continually in study there...and demonstrates the interwoveness it has with the New. My studies currently are heavily there studying the Old Testament tabernacle. How about you?

Payne

11/11/2002 01:41:27 PM

chase777, 1.)"maybe they are seeing things more clearly and not through the blurry lenses of historical injustice, inequity and inaccuracy." I think it is inaccurate to believe that one can ignore 2,000 years of history and tradition. It might also be unjust to traditional Jews to say you are practicing Judaism when you are really practicing Christianity, i.e., worshipping Jesus and reading the New Testament. 2.)"The violence that has been done by quote "Christians" in the name of Christ is reprehensible. Perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye." You cannot deny this fact, but I'm not sure what you mean by that there may be "more to this than meets the eye." I also agree that "Marcionism remains with us." This is because Christians are unaware of the history of pre-Christian Judaism and exactly how ancient Judaism and Christianity relate.

chase777

11/11/2002 01:46:50 AM

Payne, Perhaps! Or maybe they are seeing things more clearly and not through the blurry lenses of historical injustice, inequity and inaccuracy. Frankly, I'm not crazy about how the way Jewish people and Jewish believers have been viewed and treated down through the ages. The violence that has been done by quote "Christians" in the name of Christ is reprehensible. Perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye. If you study the Church Fathers you will discover significant antisemitism readily in thier writings. I wouldn't look to them to support my position with regard to this issue. Unfortunalty Marcionism remains with us today.

Payne

11/11/2002 12:58:47 AM

chase777, "Some people think of this as Jesus' last name instead of his title and office." By that rationale, no one who wants to distance oneself from inaccuracy should call himself or herself "Christian," even if he or she is a follower of Jesus. I suspect Messianics don't want to call themselves "Christian" because they feel they can go back to that time when the line distinguishing Christianity from Judaism was blurry.

chase777

11/10/2002 06:18:59 PM

If you examine the meaning of the greek word "Christian" it simply means Follower of the " Christos" or the "Annointed One". In essense the two terms are equivilant. There just is so much baggage that comes with the Term "Christ" or Christian. Some people think of this as Jesus' last name instead of his title and office. Perhaps Messianic Belevers would like to distance themselves from the inaccurate use of these terms.

Payne

11/10/2002 01:04:04 AM

chase777, I understand your point. I just wonder why Messianics don't call themselves Christians. Also, I sort of see your point in quoting Saint Paul. However, the New Testament was written probably when the line between Judaism and Christianity was blurry. Now there is a clear distinction between those who practice Judaism and those who practice Christianity that has developed over 2,000 years.

chase777

11/09/2002 05:53:50 PM

Paul in 1 Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law -- though not being myself under the law -- that I might win those under the law. [21] To those outside the law I became as one outside the law -- not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ -- that I might win those outside the law. [22] To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

chase777

11/09/2002 05:40:49 PM

Messianic Believers vary in their views. Just as Christians. I'm not sure all Messianic Belivers would believe that the Church must embrace Jewish practices. Most would believe that it is wrong to impose a particular cultural " tradition" upon a Jewish or non-Jewish believer. With regard the issue of conversion to Judaism their are a variety of views about this as well. I know of several who have converted to Judaism and are accepted and involved in leadership.

Payne

11/09/2002 01:25:10 PM

Also, tell me who is bigoted: those who tell me I can never be a Jew because I wasn't born Jewish, that I can only be "grafted in" or those who say I can be a Jew if I wanted to and went through the process of conversion.

Payne

11/09/2002 01:22:31 PM

I'm not sure how my arguments are "bigoted." But what the Christian Church decided to include and exclude in the New Testament has a lot to do with the message, even though the books that were included probably were not not altered. For example, Paul, Peter, John, or others might have had more letters that made some of their intentions more clear or might have given us other intentions. Messianics say that the Church is mistaken in abandoning certain Jewish practices, but the Church is correct in their Christology, what books go into the New Testament, and a few other things. Now you tell me who is being inconsistent.

chase777

11/09/2002 02:13:50 AM

Payne What does the assembly of the message have to do with the context and message itself. Your logic is inconsistant! Are you saying that those who quote assembled the writings somehow edited and changed their intent. These were writings by 1st century Jewish Belivers who would find your arguments inconsistant with the biblical text. Either Jesus is the promised Messiah or not. There in is the flaw in your very bigoted arguments.

Payne

11/08/2002 11:15:04 AM

Whenever you bring up history and context when talking to or about Messianics, they, and people who sympathize with them, seem to either disappear or avoid responding with their own historical facts. They want to talk about their experiences (and my experiences) and appeal to sola scriptura.

Payne

11/08/2002 11:10:30 AM

When you say you are practicing Judaism when you are really practicing Christianity, then you are either lying or mistaken. If Messianics want to mix Judiasm and Christianity, I applaud. But when they ignore Christian history and Jewish history (as many people do), then they haven't done the work they probably should've done.

human1

11/07/2002 07:47:11 PM

Before I go, in reading my posts from yesterday, I see that my tone was rather biting. Please accept my apology, I am truly sorry for any offense I brought to you. I see you as a very bright and interesting person who is willing to exchange beliefs in a way that has challenged my thinking in healthy ways...even when we disagree. God bless you....H1

human1

11/07/2002 07:43:14 PM

...and about the post you give at 3:12:53pm. I have no idea of your point. In the answer section...which is a quote from me, you quote me correctly, but there is not any type of assertion that I know what that worship and ovservation style you practice is!! The point was, do you struggle so with any Christian group whose style of worship and observation in services is different than (what ever) yours may be? That's all I was asking.

human1

11/07/2002 07:19:14 PM

Payne, I feel we are inching into issues previously discussed so this will be my last posting here. I had to look back at your post to verify the exchange....but as for calling them liars, to me you did when you said,(I'll copy from your post): "I just think they should quit lying or learn something about the history of Christianity and Judaism and just call themselves Christians." It's pretty clear there, but I wouldn't be suprised to find we don't agree even on what you said!

Payne

11/07/2002 03:19:37 PM

And I didn't say Messianics are liars. I'm sure they sincerely believe they are doing God's will. They are not being intellectually honest (they don't want to be bothered by historical details) or are just not going to the trouble of learning a little about their history.

Payne

11/07/2002 03:15:23 PM

I'm not sure what all this has to do with Messianic Judaism and whether or not Messianic Judaism is really Christianity.

Payne

11/07/2002 03:14:31 PM

human1, "if you want me to ignore all I see in your posts and say you are not tormented, I'll say you aren't tormented." This is comical.

Payne

11/07/2002 03:12:53 PM

human1, Question:"Tell me when did I ever say I knew what your practice of worship and observation looks like?" Answer:"Do you go after charismatics and other types of believers whose practice of worship and observation does not look like yours?"

human1

11/06/2002 10:11:28 PM

...you do sound tormented by their goings on.....you even call them liars....but if you want me to ignore all I see in your posts and say you are not tormented, I'll say you aren't tormented.

human1

11/06/2002 10:09:49 PM

hey now.....look at your opening sentence. Tell me when did I ever say I knew what your practice of worship and observation looks like? You just make mountains out of molehills in my perspective....then again, sometimes I do the same!

Payne

11/06/2002 09:58:41 PM

How do you know what my worship "looks like"? I'm not "tormented at the goings on" of Messianics. I just think they should quit lying or learn something about the history of Christianity and Judaism and just call themselves Christians. Traditional Jews might say that they have come "through unbelievable odds" of being persecuted. All they ask is for Jews who have converted to Christianity and Christians who attend Messianic synagogues to be honest or lean something about their own history and call themselves Christians. Messianic "Judaism" doesn't bother me too much except that I think these people are either dishonest or do not want to go to the trouble of reading and learning a little about their own history. If they want to mix Christianity and Judaism, they can have a field day for all I care. But they shouldn't pretend they are practicing some timeless or ancient form of Judaism. They do indeed worship Jesus and read the New Testament; that means they're practicing Christianity.

human1

11/06/2002 07:47:06 PM

Payne...with all the heresy in the world....even now "Christian" people are at work to carve out the writings of Paul as non-Biblical. People are turning the truth inside out...and you are here tormented at the goings on of people who accept and believe in the Bible, who accept and receive eternal life through their Messiah....Jesus, after coming through unbelievable odds of being raised in a faith opposing Jesus as the Messiah. I just can't follow you, though my aim is not to offend. Forgive me, but believers picking on one another is tedious to me. Do you go after charismatics and other types of believers whose practice of worship and observation does not look like yours?

Payne

11/06/2002 05:43:33 PM

That's exactly my point. Messianic Jews are practicing Christianity. They are NOT practicing Judaism but are PRETENDING to do so or THINK they are doing so. It's called Messianic Judaism, but it's really Christianity.

human1

11/06/2002 01:11:18 PM

Payne....your accusation is meaningless to me. It is completely impossible to practice Christianity and Judaism at the same time. One cannot see Jesus as the Messiah, and see Jesus as Not the Messiah at once.

Payne

11/05/2002 05:43:19 PM

The New Testament may have been written by Jews, but it was put together by Catholic/Orthodox Christians in the 4th century. As I have been saying over and over, Judaism in the 1st century and Judaism today are different. Judaism didn't stop in the 1st century to remain "incomplete" while Christianity developed. The both developed separately, whether we like it or not. Maybe Christians should incorporate some elements of ancient, 1st-century Judaism into Christianity, but they should do it as Christians. They should not pretend to be practicing Judaism.

chase777

11/04/2002 10:38:25 PM

It is important to note that the main burning issue which was addressed in the Books of Acts was not can one be Jewish and be a follower of Yeshua but how can one be a gentile "goy or goyim Plural" and be a follower of Messiah. How would you answer that? The only conclusion I have come to is that it is not an either or proposition but a both and. One need not convert to Judaism to embrace the Jewish Messiah. Neither must they be circumcised etc. But, the option is there if they wish. Its ok for different groups to worship the God of Abraham, Issac and Jocob in different ways. It historically consistent for Jewish believers who chose to worship G-d utilizing the wonderful contributions made by Jews through ages and be true to the Tenach and Brit Chadasha (new covenant). Each community of believers must decide how they wish to worship

chase777

11/04/2002 10:38:14 PM

There is considerable historical evidence for the existance of large communities of Jewish believers in the first and second centuries. Thier Jewishness and the Jewishness of the above was never questioned. The questioning came later. When history was viewed through a different lense. One inspired by antisemitism. Which sought to remove or change anything which was remotly jewish in nature.

chase777

11/04/2002 10:37:04 PM

My intention was not to be critical of Christianity or Christian cultural expressions but to address the faulty impression of Messianic Judaism which was presented. By Christian oriented I meant so called Christian culture. Both of the examples you mentioned are quite interesting. Jesus "Yeshua" was Jewish and claimed to be the Messiah to both Jews and non-jews. The New Testament or Brit Chadasha was authored by Jewish believers (although traditonally Luke is considered to be a non-Jew but a solid argument for his Jewishness can be made). To believe in both are in my view authentically Jewish beliefs.

Payne

11/04/2002 09:05:00 PM

It seems to me that all Messianic synagogues in one way or another are "Christian oriented." Messianics worship Jesus and they believe the New Testament is the word of God.

chase777

11/04/2002 02:03:26 PM

This article might leave you with the impression that all Messianic Synogagues are alike or like the one described in the article. They are not! They vary! Unfortunatly the authors perspective is based on one experience i.e one Messianic Congregation "Brit Hadasha". Hundreds exist across the country. Some are more "Christian oriented" in their expression and practice while others are more traditionally Jewish in their liturgy, community and lifestyle practice. During Sukkot You would certainly be aware that you were celebrating Sukkot in the Messianic Synagogue I currently attend.

human1

11/02/2002 02:49:43 PM

Payne, Yes, I am a Christian...thank you for sharing that you are as well. We obviously see at least aspects if not all of Christianity differently. For me, Jesus fulfilled the promise of God for a kingdom ruled by Him and in peace. I am living in it even now. God's promise of the next age being ushered in is still coming, but His kingdom is already established even now. Believer in Jesus are in that kingdom....and He has made them complete. I will go and read what you recommend. H1

Payne

11/01/2002 10:37:14 PM

human1, Are you a Christian? Then why are you so concerned with bringing aspects of Jewish religious worship into Christianity? Check out Jesus' words in Matthew 19:17-19 (also Mark 10:17-23) and then read Greg Easterbrook's beliefnet article: "Hang Six" http://www.beliefnet.com/story/11/story_1110_1.html

Payne

11/01/2002 10:19:18 PM

human1, I am a Christian. I am a Christian who doesn't pretend to be practicing Judaism. Many Jews are indeed waiting for a messiah who will bring (among other things) world peace but so are all Christians. Jesus obviously did not bring world peace. The promise has not "been completed." Theologically Christians may disagree with Judaism's view of the messiah, but that is no reason to say that Judaism is "incomplete." While it is important for us to realize that Christians and Jews disagree on whether or not Jesus was the messiah (and God), it is just as important to remember that Judaism and Christianity have a different, parallel history. Neither religion was "completed" in the first century. We both look to a time, a messianic age when things will be "completed."

human1

11/01/2002 07:35:14 PM

Payne....now a problem with "completed Jew"? Are you a Christian? The Israelites were promised a messial.....Judaism as far as I know, is still waiting for the completion of that promise. For a Jew who has come to believe Jesus was that Messiah....the promise has been completed. Complete, mature, lacking in nothing....is that what you feel Judaism truly is?

Dovidl

10/31/2002 09:29:35 PM

Thank you, Payne. As I tried to say in an earlier post that was inexplicably deleted, both to Bones and to Ms Winner, Judaism has not become outdated, is not deficient, has not been superceded. We still have an irrevocable covenant with G-d. What people seem to forget is that He knows the future and that it is unfolding exactly as planned. He knew what would happen to us, and though He may be using Christianity to expose the world to monotheism, we still have our role to play in bringing about the final redemption.

Payne

10/31/2002 05:43:24 PM

It's worse, they are saying they are "completed" Jews as if Judaism was an "incomplete" religion. It's one thing to disagree with the theology of Judaism; it's another thing to believe that it's primitive.

human1

10/30/2002 08:52:37 PM

I can agree with your last post. I think I fully understand where you're coming from. I do want to learn more. I have been blessed by a richer understanding of passages when a Jewish Christian has shared their perspective. I would have to say that if they are living out a religion based upon superiority to gentile believers....that would be wrong. Blessings to you, and thanks again. H1

Payne

10/30/2002 08:18:11 PM

Or don't pretend to be practicing Judaism.

Payne

10/30/2002 08:15:31 PM

I'm not offended. I just think these people either are being deceptive by not calling themselves what they are: Christians. Quite possibly they are ignorant about the history of Judaism and Christianity. It's easier to stop when you see that Christianity arose out of ancient Judaism and that Jesus and his Apostles were Jews and criticize "the gentile Church" for dropping Jewish practices. If you want to be a Christian and you are not pleased by the Christianity's antisemitism, then work to change it within Christianity. Don't pretend to be Jewish.

human1

10/30/2002 07:22:42 PM

Payne, I do see some of your points in the last post. I am not sure I agree that the things taking place at Brit Hadasha are things to be offended over. I guess I would have to visit a messianic jewish church and see for myself. In the mean time, I will talk to my friend at church and see what his thoughts might be, as he is closer to the heart of this than I am. I have been to several "Christian" churches in which the pastors/leaders wore robes and prayer shawls. So I need more information. Thanks for your willingness to share with me at such length through this discussion. God bless you Payne....H1

Payne

10/30/2002 04:42:40 PM

Well, Lauren F. Winner in the article goes to a "Messianic Jewish temple" (introduction). She does not go to a Church. She goes to a place called Brit Hadasha. She says, "you might easily mistake it for a Reform synagogue." She says, "A man clad in a tallis, a prayer shawl, stands at a podium in the front of the room." Christians generally do not do this sort of thing. She agrees with me at first: "Brit Hadasha's Judaism is just raisins added to cake—you notice them, but they don't really change the cake."

human1

10/30/2002 01:41:55 PM

I do understand a little better, but not entirely. Will you please print out or point me to the place in the article or posts where someone here says they are practicing Judaism and Christianity. or Messianic Judaism. Thanks....H1

Payne

10/30/2002 01:11:00 AM

Hopefully now you can understand where I'm coming from a little better.

Payne

10/30/2002 01:09:56 AM

It doesn't bother me that there are Jewish Christians or even that they want to worship with other Jewish Christians. It does bother me that they are dishonest, saying that they are not practicing Christianity, and ignore history, they read the New Testament but fail to recognize that it wasn't put together by Jews but by Christians in the 4th century. Other Christians, who do not acknowledge Christian history or who do not take the time to learn about it but then try to speak about how they are the only "true" Christians, bother me also.

Payne

10/30/2002 01:09:46 AM

"I also live in a large metropolatan area where many Christian churches create congregations of one race of people...Chinese christian, Vietnamese Christian, Spanish Christian." Yes, but these people still acknowledge that they are Christian. They do not claim to be practicing another religion while really practicing Christianity. I have been to a Messianic congregation once. I have read a lot about Messianic Judaism; I even own "The Complete Jewish Bible" (I'm ashamed to admit). I used to think Messianic Judaism was a good idea. But the more I study the history of my own religion, Christianity, and the history of Judaism, the more the idea of Messianic Judaism frustrates me.

human1

10/30/2002 12:30:22 AM

When you asked why do they have their own synogogues....I don't know if they do....I don't know their beliefs about it. I do know that by and large....black believers tend to congregate in their separate churches...why is that? I also live in a large metropolatan area where many Christian churches create congregations of one race of people...Chinese christian, Vietnamese Christian, Spanish Christian. My church is majority of caucasian though my friend the "completed jew" worships there, and we have a few asian, mexican, and black but hardly any....why is that? Does it bother you in this same way?

human1

10/30/2002 12:23:12 AM

Payne....with respect, I just have not seen anyone here or in the article express that they are practicing Judaism. You are the only one asserting that, unless I have missed something....in which case, I would like you to please copy it in your next post, or tell me which post or article page number to find it. I wonder....if I am right, and no one here has asserted it other than you.....if you might be complicating what is being spoken here with some bias based upon an experience elsewhere in your life. Could that be?...just trying to understand.

Payne

10/30/2002 12:07:51 AM

5.)"I am a child of God through my faith in His Son Jesus. I am still of English and Irish descent. That is what Messianic Jews are saying." I don't think this is what Messianic Jews are saying. I think they are saying that they have "rediscovered" an early form of Judaism in which Jesus was worshipped as God and Messiah. This is different from saying, "I am of Jewish descent, and I worship Jesus Christ" or "I might be considered Jewish according to halakha, but I worship Jesus Christ." 6.)"They are of descent of the race of Jewish people, and they believe the Messiah has already come and is Jesus!" Then they are Christians. You might be an English-Irish Christian; they might be Jewish Christians. Why have Messianic synagogues and call it "Judaism"? Why not acknowledge that they have converted to an historical religion, Christianity, and maybe incorporate what they see as elements of Judaism into Christianity? Why ignore history and the split between Judaism and Christianity?

Payne

10/29/2002 11:58:55 PM

3.)" The Jewish people who have received Jesus are saying they are Messianic Jews...not that they are practicing 'Messianic Judaism' as you put it." Why call themselves Jews and have their own synagogues at all if, as St. Paul says, in Christ there is neither Jew nor gentile? 4.)"Jesus Christ was a Jew!" He was a Jew in 1st century Palestine, not a Jew as our Jewish friends and neighbors are today.

Payne

10/29/2002 11:58:48 PM

1.)"you confuse being a 'Jew' by race, with practicing 'Judaism'." Well, you can be a Jew according to halakha and not practice Judaism. You can have a Jewish mother, but practice Christianity. Then you would be a Jewish Christian. 2.)"Forgive me if I am overlooking something...but I don't recall anyone here or in the article claiming both Christianity and Judaism." That's right; it's worse than "claiming both Christianity and Judaism." Messianic Jews claim they are practicing a form of Judaism that has been "lost," in which Jesus is Messiah and God. They are "claiming" Judaism and practicing Christianity, which is dishonest.

human1

10/29/2002 09:37:15 PM

As for titles....I would agree with you that we do place an importance on titles in many instances. I, however, was specifically referring to the two types of believers in Jesus. Jew and Gentile which have, praise God, become the children of God. Becoming a spiritual child of God, does not mean that your body's physical lineage is no longer applicable to you. I am a child of God through my faith in His Son Jesus. I am still of English and Irish descent. That is what Messianic Jews are saying. They are of descent of the race of Jewish people, and they believe the Messiah has already come and is Jesus! Praise God for their precious truthful belief...don't condemn them for a title that describes their distinct physical (plus newfound spiritual) heritage. That very title is a blessing to the ears of our Lord! He made it possible that someone of Jewish descent might also find Jesus is the Messiah!

human1

10/29/2002 09:37:03 PM

I think we are getting closer in our understandings here....I still see that you confuse being a "Jew" by race, with practicing "Judaism". There is a difference. One is race(physical), and the other is religion(spiritual). Forgive me if I am overlooking something...but I don't recall anyone here or in the article claiming both Christianity and Judaism. Please show me if I am wrong. The Jewish people who have received Jesus are saying they are Messianic Jews...not that they are practicing "Messianic Judaism" as you put it. Messianic Judaism is an impossibility! You cannot both believe Jesus is the promised Messiah, and also Not believe Jesus is the promised Messiah. Your confusion over the definition of a "Jew".....and over the use of the word "Judaism" is what is causing this misunderstanding. Jesus Christ was a Jew!

Payne

10/29/2002 05:12:05 PM

6.)"The Jew and Gentile believers have both become the same thing....Children of God! So why not rejoice?! Why be offended?!" This is exactly my point! No matter what race you came from, you are now part of the Church if you are a Christian. You are not practicing "Judaism." It is dishonest to say that you are. 7.)"What is this misplaced importance upon titles? Was Jesus a Christian?" So why even be a Christian if you are not concerned with "titles"? Why read the New Testament, which was compiled by Christians in the 4th century? In fact, why even have a canon of scripture or a community that is set apart; isn't this a concern for "titles"? But we obviously are somewhat concened with titles. If Christians want to borrow some aspects of Judaism because Christianity came from Judaism, that is great. But we cannot erase Christian history and Jewish history.

Payne

10/29/2002 05:04:10 PM

4.)"A Jewish person who excepts Jesus is still a Jew! (Have you ever heard of 'Jews For Jesus'?)" Yes, a Jewish person who accepts Jesus may still be considered a Jew according to Jewish law. Yes, I have heard of "Jews for Jesus"; have you ever heard of hegemony? 5.)"A Jewish person who rejects Jesus may indeed practice Judaism...though not necessarily. Many of them do not practice anything. Some I would even venture to add may have become atheist." That's true, but they may still be considered Jewish according to Jewish law.

Payne

10/29/2002 04:57:48 PM

3.)Yes, God can "graft" Jews "back in." But I have a problem with people saying they are doing "God's will" by going back in time and ignoring tradition and history.

Payne

10/29/2002 04:55:43 PM

human1, 1.)"If you believe this, then you would have to say the Bible is racist. Did you not read Romans 11:17-21? Do you really not see that?" Yes, I see. The "branches" that were broken off are the Jews who rejected Jesus as Messiah and God. Christians should not be arrogant and think that they are special because they are "grafted in." This has little to do with my point that Messianic "Judaism" might be racist. 2.)"The distiction is made, because it is made there in scripture, in these verses. 'Discord' could only come, as I see it, as a result of envy. Are you envious?" The distincion made in these verses seems to be between the branches that are a part of the olive tree and the branches that have been broken off.

human1

10/28/2002 11:17:01 PM

I see nothing harmful or wrong in seeing the distiction of heritage among believers in Jesus both Jew and Gentile. The Bible teaches they have both become one thing....reconciled unto God through Jesus. It teaches that this reconciliation contains no distiction nor difference no matter who receives it. The Jew and Gentile believers have both become the same thing....Children of God! So why not rejoice?! Why be offended?! What is this misplaced importance upon titles? Was Jesus a Christian? For heavens sake with all the watered down belief systems that are now going around calling themselves Christian....I sometimes want to detach myself from the word altogether! I normally call myself a "Christ Follower".

human1

10/28/2002 11:16:43 PM

The only other thing I see that might be helpful for you as you ponder this whole teaching in Romans...I feel like I see confusion in this exchange over Jew, and Judaism. A Jewish person who excepts Jesus is still a Jew! (Have you ever heard of "Jews For Jesus"?) A Jewish person who rejects Jesus may indeed practice Judaism...though not necessarily. Many of them do not practice anything. Some I would even venture to add may have become atheist. Just as a Gentile who receives Jesus is still a Gentile. I would say that both the Gentile and the Jew who receive Jesus are Christians....but I respect that many Jewish "Christians" prefer to include their physical heritage and link to Israelites in describing who they are. I have a dear friend in my Sunday School group who is Jewish and has rec'd Jesus....he refers to himself as a "completed Jew".

human1

10/28/2002 11:16:12 PM

"Right or wrong, this is a simple fact. We cannot go back in time to "graft" Jews "back in" ourselves." No, but God certainly can. Read verse 23 and 24.

human1

10/28/2002 11:15:19 PM

"No, but saying they are the "natural descendents" of Israel while gentiles are "grafted in" might be racist." If you believe this, then you would have to say the Bible is racist. Did you not read Romans 11:17-21? Do you really not see that? "So why create discord by now making distinctions between Jew and gentile within Christianity." The distiction is made, because it is made there in scripture, in these verses. "Discord" could only come, as I see it, as a result of envy. Are you envious? While I have experienced the sting of envy in life....I can honestly say I do not feel it toward those for whom the covenant was originally intended. Do you?

Payne

10/28/2002 02:25:56 PM

3.)"Judaism is the broken off branches...God's word says He can graft them back in! He can also break off some wild grafted branches. The appropriate attitude is humility and thankfulness." Yes, Judaism broke from Christianity early in Christian history. Right or wrong, this is a simple fact. We cannot go back in time to "graft" Jews "back in" ourselves.

Payne

10/28/2002 02:18:53 PM

2.)"The cultivated tree is the body of all who have entered into the covenant God gave us through Jesus, both Jew and Gentile." So why create discord by now making distinctions between Jew and gentile within Christianity. It's one thing for individuals to be proud of their Jewish heritage. It's another thing to say you are practicing Messianic "Judaism" as opposed to "gentile" Christianity.

Payne

10/28/2002 02:16:15 PM

human1, 1.)"No!!! Saying that Messianic Jews are also descendants of God's chosen people is not racist!" No, but saying they are the "natural descendents" of Israel while gentiles are "grafted in" might be racist. Someone who has converted to Christianity from Judaism might be proud of his Jewish heritage and might want to incorporate some biblical "Jewish" practices into Christianity. But he should do it as a Christian and not pretend to be practicing Judaism. Judaism and Christianity did split, a "simple fact", like it or not.

human1

10/28/2002 03:11:05 AM

Not for Jewish believers, nor for Gentile believers, for the two have become one as the Bible teaches and you have pointed out. The cultivated tree is the picture of God's fulfilled covenant with Abraham made possible through Jesus. The cultivated tree is the body of all who have entered into the covenant God gave us through Jesus, both Jew and Gentile. The branches broken off are the Jewish people who have rejected Jesus....and there is additionally not even room there for any arrogance on anyone's part...as this scripture points out that God caused a temporary "blinding", so to speak, in order to bring in the people of Gentile nations. Their rejection brought about the opportunity to extend the covenant to the gentiles....therefore we are to regard them highly as we received mercy due to God's decision there. Judaism is the broken off branches...God's word says He can graft them back in! He can also break off some wild grafted branches. The appropriate attitude is humility and thankfulness.

human1

10/28/2002 03:10:49 AM

Payne, I've been out of town, thus the delay....don't know if you will be back to this one. Anyway, there are many areas of the Bible that are "gray" so to speak. This passage we are looking at truly speaks plainly. I urge you, with respect, to take another look. No!!! Saying that Messianic Jews are also descendants of God's chosen people is not racist! Ask them for heaven's sake. It is no more racist than someone sharing that I have descended from my Irish heritage. People have physical heritages...mine is not Jewish. Simple fact, not racism. As for any cause for arrogance or "special" privilege with God.....the passages here in the Bible address that very topic! There is not room for arrogance here on either side. Not for those who are the cultivated branches nor those grafted in.

Payne

10/23/2002 10:26:00 PM

human1, 1.)"They are different, however, because they are natural descendants of Israel....I am not, are you?" Isn't this kind of racist to say that Messianic Jews are different because they are "natural descendants of Israel", to make a distinction between the "natural descendents of Israel" and those of us who are not. This puts them with a special relationship to God. Now in traditional Judaism, no matter what race I am, I can convert and be part of God's chosesn people. But you are telling me there are distinctions between races in Christianity. To paraphrase St. Paul, in Christianity there is neither Jew nor gentile. 2.)"The Messianic Jew is the cultivated branch that was Not broken off." I thought the image was a cultivated tree, not just a branch. The tree sustains the branches. This tree, for Paul, is the "real" Israel.

human1

10/23/2002 08:13:35 PM

Payne...you state that I see Israel in the NT as Jew today. You are partially correct. To be Jewish is not merely a choice of beliefs, but it is the lineage of a race of people. We agree that Judaism is the broken off (cultivated) branches. (however, God is capable of grafting them back , just as He grafted in the gentiles or wild tree branches.) You asked what this has to do with Messianic Jews.....and go on to call them Christians.....actually in the sense that they see Christ as the Messiah, they are like Christians. They are different, however, because they are natural descendants of Israel....I am not, are you? Perhaps. I am grafted in. The Messianic Jew is the cultivated branch that was Not broken off. Judaism is the branches broken off. Gentiles are the wild grafted in.

Payne

10/23/2002 03:37:01 PM

In the first post, the third sentence should read: I don't know why you would take that as an attack.

Payne

10/23/2002 03:34:13 PM

Oh, my last two posts were for bones327, in case you couldn't tell.

Payne

10/23/2002 03:33:36 PM

You still haven't answered why as a Messianic "Jew" you still believe in the New Testament (or Brit Hadasha) even though it wasn't finalized until 367 A.D., not by the early Jewish followers of Jesus. The New Testament (put together in the fourth century A.D. by Christians) says that messianic prophecies from the Tanak were fulfilled in Jesus, but this is not so obvious for most Jews, who have the Tanak but don't read the New Testament.

Payne

10/23/2002 03:33:25 PM

I did not attack you personally. You said I was "hung up on tradition", so I said you were "hung up on Protestantism," that is sola sciptura, one's own interpretation of scripture. There's nothing wrong with being a Protestant: I AM A PROTESTANT CHRISTIAN!(look at my profile). I don't know why you would that as an attack. You sound like the Protestants I know. I am VERY familiar with evangelical Protestant Christian soteriology: "after you die, you will kneel before the Throne of Almighty G-d and have to give an account of your life," and "if you have screwed up in anyway" you will spend "eternity in Geihennom (hell)." I do appreciate your concern for my soul.

Payne

10/23/2002 03:12:49 PM

The branches that are grafted in are gentiles who have been grafted into Israel, not Judaism obviously.

Payne

10/23/2002 03:12:02 PM

human1, "Payne....with sincere respect...I'm not following you. We agree the cultivated tree is Israel. Paul is teaching here how God allowed a hardening to Israel" I think this is where we disagree. You see "Israel" in the New Testament and "Jew" today as synonymous, but I do not. In the New Testament, in the early church, in some churches today, Christians saw/see themselves as a continuation of Israel. Judaism sees itself as the continuation of Israel. Paul is not saying the cultivated tree is Judaism; he is saying it is Israel. The branches that were broken off are Judaism.

bones327

10/23/2002 01:25:03 AM

Shabbos is on Saturday. Christians may try to act like it is on Sunday, but that doesn't change G-d's declaration that the 7th day is Saturday. Sunday is the first day of the week, not the 7th. Look at your calendar. Christians worship on Sunday because the Lord was resurrected from the dead on the 1st day of the week. He was nailed to the execution stake on Thursday, a special Shabbos because it was Pesach. He died and was removed from the stake before sundown. He lay in the grave Thursday night, Friday and Saturday and was raised by the Holy Spirit of G-d after the Sabbath ended. Good Friday is a catholic invention, there should be NO Good Friday. If Yeshua was executed on Friday, he could not have been 3 days in the grave, as Jonah was 3 days in the whale's belly, and then resurrected on Sunday.

bones327

10/23/2002 01:24:47 AM

Payne, I am a practicing Jew. No, I don't keep the kashrut laws. Even my mom, G-d rest her soul, couldn't do that. And she tried. So, the chinese food was served on paper plates. Did that cure the defect in practice?

bones327

10/23/2002 01:09:46 AM

Payne Part 4. You see. I can answer your ad hominem attacks without resorting to your level of argument. I am a Jew. I believe in Yeshua because it is the well-reasoned conclusion of a thoughtful Jew who refused to be prejudiced against Messiah. He was hated without a cause. . . but I do not hate him, or you or anyone. G-d is love and instructs me to love my G-d with all my soul, with all my strength and with all of my mind. I am taught to love my enemy and pray for those who hate me.

bones327

10/23/2002 01:03:57 AM

Payne Part 3. G-d knows the atonement processes prescribed in Torah are not available now. It was my considered opinion G-d was not being fair to me, a sinner; I wanted to make biblically proper atonement/teshuvah but could not. It occurred to me that G-d, being perfectly just, would not leave me without an avenue to obtain forgiveness from my sin and be permitted to be with G-d after he raises me from the dead. (micayay hamatim). Consequently, I deduced there must be such an avenue available. I asked G-d to reveal his plan to me and kept reading Tanakh and praying for divine guidance. He who keeps asking receives, he who keeps seeking finds, unto him who keeps knocking, it will be opened unto him. There is a plan for us in the post-Tabernacle/Temple period to obtain atonement for our sins.

bones327

10/23/2002 12:59:27 AM

Payne Part 2. If you have properly made atonement for your sins, as called for by the eternal statutes of G-d in the Torah, you'll be fine. However, if you have screwed up in anyway, G-d says you are cut off. Note, I did not say that, He did. Cut off means cut off from relationship with G-d. Cut off means eternity in Geihennom (hell). I did not say that, He did.

bones327

10/23/2002 12:55:04 AM

Payne: I am hung up on nothing. I came to believe that Yeshua is Messiah based upon my study of Tanakh. I never read the Brit Hadasha until after I believed that G-d's Messiah, the righteous branch, the suffering servant was Yeshua, based upon Tanakh. You can believe whatever you choose to believe, about me, about G-d, about Messiah. However, after you die, you will kneel before the Throne of Almighty G-d and have to give an account of your life.

bones327

10/23/2002 12:36:00 AM

Dovid: I do not expect you to accept the new testament at this time. What you need to accept is that our Scriptures promise Messiah. They promise he will come from a particular branch of a particular family. They promise he will be born in a particular place and be present at a specific time in history. They promise certain things would happen to him, which were unknown to our people at the time the promises were made. They promise that this Messiah would be rejected by our people and that the Gentiles would be drawn to him. None of these things are new testament promises, they come straight out of the pages of the Tanakh. Our people, for over 2000 years have been attacked and threatened and killed and prosecuted over the refusal to accept Yeshua as Messiah. All of that is far from the teachings of Messiah, but it is the main reason that Jews reject Yeshua as the Messiah G-d sent to us.

bones327

10/23/2002 12:27:15 AM

Dovid: I am of Yudah, born and raised. I will die a Jew unless my Lord comes to take me home before the resurrection. Do you believe in the resurrection? The Pharisees from which Rabbinic Judaism descended believed in the resurrection. Orthodox and Conservative liturgy currently in use in synogogues in this country accept the concept of the resurrection. For proof of this please see the Avodah from any current Sidur.

bones327

10/23/2002 12:22:46 AM

Dear Posters: I am indeed pleased that this discussion is on-going. It has been a little while since I reviewed the discussion, so I will address the issues raised as the limited space in this bulletin board permits.

human1

10/22/2002 11:54:50 PM

Messianic Jews, are "chosen ones" who accepted Jesus as Messiah....I being Gentile accepted Jesus as Messiah, too. I have been grafted in to the tree of the "chosen ones" through my decision regarding Jesus.

human1

10/22/2002 11:50:59 PM

Payne....with sincere respect...I'm not following you. We agree the cultivated tree is Israel. Paul is teaching here how God allowed a hardening to Israel....and offered the covenant to extend to the gentiles (non Israel....I don't know about you....but I would be part of non Israel). God will bring them in "in full", but this age began a time of mercy on part of Non-Israel in order that God might make available to us the plan of redemption, of forgiveness. He extended it to the gentiles(us). Gentiles are grafted in to the "tree" of God's chosen ones. Gentiles are the "wild" olive tree.

Payne

10/22/2002 10:54:45 PM

"Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in" (Romans 11:25). "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:28). OK, the "cultivated olive tree" is Israel, while the "olive tree that is wild" is the people who have become part of Israel. And the branches that are broken off are the people who practice Judaism, who "will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again" (Rom. 11:23). What does this have to do with Messianic Jews? Messianic Jews are really Protestant Christians. They do not practice Judaism.

human1

10/22/2002 08:15:17 PM

Payne, I must disagree to your post to Bones. I am a Christian....Bones is a Messianic Jew. If you have access to a Bible, go to Romans, chapter 11. Paul is talking about this very issue. Read the entire Chapter, then the following will make sense to you. Bones is of the "cultivated olive tree" spoken of starting with 17 and ending at 24. I, however, am of the "olive tree that is wild...and has been grafted into the cultivated one, also spoken of there. It is a beautiful passage...and illustrates God's fulfillment of His covenant to Abraham, and indeed makes Abraham the father of many nations...with heirs more numerous than the stars in the heavens and the grains of sand upon the earth. We both have become followers of Jesus, but through unique and distinct lineages by God's choice to offer His promise of salvation to all people, and no longer only His chosen people.

Payne

10/22/2002 06:03:01 PM

http://sor.cua.edu/Pub/PZakka1/SOCAtAGlance.html

Payne

10/22/2002 05:59:34 PM

bones327, "I have made a concerted study of Torah and the Prophets and Writings for more than 25 years. I haven't needed to be instructed in the meaning of Tanakh by people who don't know it." You are too hung up on yourself and your own Protestant Christian faith--sola scriptura. You still haven't responded to the fact that the New Testament canon wasn't finalized until 362 not by the early Jewish followers of Jesus. And yet you Messianic "Jews" use the New Testament, or the Brit Hadasha. Let's call a spade a spade: Messianic "Judaism" is really Protestant Christianity, a group of Jewish and non-Jewish Christians.

Dovidl

10/21/2002 04:08:46 PM

Bones, because you speak as a Christian, I assumed you are a Christian; most of them seem to to think Sunday is the Sabbath. I communicate the things of G-d on the Sabbath verbally, not electronically; and I don't accept the NT (surprise!) and therefore arguments based on trying to find references to it in Hebrew Scriptures are meaningless to me and I will not be swayed by quotes. I hope some day you will realize that your native faith is not incomplete, is not defective, is not superceded. The reason I referenced Deut 13 is because it tells me not to accept religions that my fathers did not know. That would include religions that void my faith (Dying to the old to be born to the new? and many other things that tell me not to be Jewish).

bones327

10/20/2002 04:37:01 PM

human1: If you know some Jewish people, you should ask if it is possible to come to their Passover Seder. If you don't know a family, go to a Synogogue before Passover, you're sure to hear about a Seder sponsored in the community, which you could attend. Lastly, look for a Messianic Jewish congregation; they will have the most meaningful ceremony for you to attend.

bones327

10/20/2002 04:27:57 PM

Dovid: Just by saying that my arguments are not based upon Tanakh does not make your statement true. In fact, every one of my arguments scripturally based in Tanakh.

bones327

10/20/2002 04:24:45 PM

Dovid: Incidentally, why would you ask if I keep "my Sabbath?" Sabbath is Sabbath, I don't have a personal, special Sabbath unique to me.

bones327

10/20/2002 04:22:58 PM

Dovid: By the way, do you really believe that communicating with believers in G-d, about the things of G-d, is prohibited on Shabbos? If you do, are you not putting form above substance?

bones327

10/20/2002 04:19:13 PM

Dovid: Actually, I am grateful that G-d knows our lineages, even if we don't. It is said that the 10 tribes of Israel are lost, but they are not lost to G-d. They are only unknown to us. He has promised that He would restore a remnant of the House of Jacob to the land in the latter days. He must also restore to us the formal worship in the Temple in those latter days. There are people preparing for that even now. People who are prepared for proper sanctification and for proper sacrifices in a restored Holy Temple on Mt. Moriah. I pray for that day.

bones327

10/20/2002 04:11:58 PM

Dovid: The problem with your argument that G-d knows who is in the Davidic lineage and can bring him forth when appropriate is that noone in the house of Israel will accept someone who comes forward and claims this position because there is no way to document the claim. The last person for whom there is a record of being in the kingly line for legal purposes (His step-father, Joseph is in the David-Solomon line) and His mother was in the line of another son of David, Nathan) is Yeshua the Nazarean. See Matthew 1 and Luke 3 for the geneologies.

bones327

10/20/2002 04:06:12 PM

Dovid: I meant no insult. I have no way to know if you are Shomer Shabbos. Still, you have not replied to any of my arguments. If you wish to argue on behalf of your beliefs, please do so. I am honored to hear your point of view.

bones327

10/20/2002 03:59:28 PM

I am born of a Hebrew mother & father. I am circumcised, educated in Shul & Bar Mitzvahed. I have made a concerted study of Torah and the Prophets and Writings for more than 25 years. I haven't needed to be instructed in the meaning of Tanakh by people who don't know it. Maybe you know who is in the Davidic line and maybe you don't but you're not telling me? That sounds like a third grader whose pride is wounded, not like a biblical scholar. I expect the lion to lay down with the lamb and the nations to beat their swords into ploughshares when the Lord returnts. If you read Daniel 9, you will see that the Messiah's reign, following his assasination is the postponed 70th week of Daniel, when G-d promised to restore the Kingdom to Israel. It is up to G-d to decide when Messiah returns. The one thing that you said that's correct, is that G-d will send David's Son back to assume the throne when He is ready.

Dovidl

10/20/2002 02:25:05 AM

Bones: 1. Don't start that "Why don't you respond" garbage. You can obviously tell that I don't use the computer on the Sabbath. Do you keep your Sabbath? 2. Your arguments are not based on Tanakh but on what you have been told it means by people who don't even know it. 3. Maybe I don't know who is of the Davidic line, maybe I do - it's irrelevant. G-d knows who is and He will send him when He's ready. Now let me ask you a question: you all say J.C. fulfilled all the prophecies; why then doesn't the lion lie down with the lamb, why aren't swords plowshares, why isn't the world as full of the knowledge of G-d as the sea is with water, and on and on?

human1

10/19/2002 12:41:16 AM

Goodnight. H1

human1

10/19/2002 12:39:18 AM

bones 327...thanks so much! I was typing and not aware you were offering more. I have always wanted to participate in a Passover Seder...but have wondered that would not be appropriate or would be disrespectful due to the fact I am not Jewish.

human1

10/19/2002 12:35:50 AM

11, To teach of God's word, we will always need it. 12, Expected to appear again (Josiah is believed to have hidden the ark, which contains the omer of manna God requested set aside, and it will apppear again.)Jesus is the "hidden treasure" in the field...and will also appear again. Both at the time of His return. 13, Expected in the morning. God's glory was seen in the morning in manna. Jesus is the "bright morning star".

human1

10/19/2002 12:35:34 AM

Jesus is our "manna". Both are:1, God's answer to man's hunger. 2, A gift of God's grace. 3, The physical manifestation of God's glory. 4, Sent from heaven. 5, Unique and unprededented. 6, A corporate promise but an individual portion.(all who wish to be fed, must take thereof.) 7, Perfectly satisfying, as in "sabia" rather than "akal"...(which was the quail-representing earthly longings.."Egypt" longings). 8,Proportioned directly to the need. 9, Rejected in favor of something new.(they asked for quail...we ask for secular nonfilling substitutes) 10, Given daily for that day...training in dependance upon God for life.

bones327

10/19/2002 12:25:00 AM

Human1: The bread of life is the true manna; when you eat it you will never be spiritually hungry again. Did you know that when the Lord broke the bread at the Last Supper, which was a Passover Seder, it was matzah? Did you know that matzah is not kosher for modern Jews unless it is pierced and striped? Did you know that at the Passover table the matzah is placed in a three tiered linen cover and that the middle matzah is taken out during the meal, broken, wrapped in a linen napkin, hidden and then resurected or found at the end of the meal? The Lord is the true Passover Lamb, the offering whose blood was spread on the doorposts of the Israelites in Egypt on the night of the slaying of the first born throughout Egypt. When the Israelites covered themselves with the blood of the Lamb, they were protected from death. Tihis is still true today, when we cover ourselves with the Blood of the True Lamb, we are saved from death and judgment.

human1

10/19/2002 12:12:35 AM

bones237, thanks for the response. I want to learn all I can. I never viewed OT and NT in terms of "bad" and "good". I always associated it with old covenant, and new covenant...and actually simply see the new as the fulfillment of the old. Nothing is more beautiful to me than seeing the interwoveness of the OT with the NT. That is why I love this article. My current study has had me thoroughly examining Johovah Jireh and the provisions he gave the Israelites during the 40 years in the wilderness. Specifically this week I am looking at the provision of the manna and the quail...looking in Exodus at the descriptions and the instructions for it. Finally yesterday after that focus, we looked at the NT and saw the Bread of Life, Jesus, that God gave and looked at the amazing teaching of our perfect and permanent provision God gave in the same way.

bones327

10/19/2002 12:04:34 AM

Dovid: I believe G-d is using me to reach you with His eternal message. Please hear me. The wish of the Father is that none are lost to the Kingdom of G-d. The plan for that is specific. If you want to build a building according to an architect's plan, you have to stick with the plan, you can't build it your own way. This isn't Burger King. G-d is the Great Architect of the Universe. You can't beat his plan with your own.

bones327

10/18/2002 11:57:56 PM

Dovid: Why do you not respond to any of my Torah/Tanakh based arguments? Is it because you cannot not? I have read all of the Scriptures through completely, many parts more than four or five times. Have you done that? I want to help you. Please do not turn away because you don't like what you hear.

bones327

10/18/2002 11:53:59 PM

Dovid: In Isaiah, G-d said, through the prophet that we would be healed through the sacrifice made by Messiah and the chastisement of us all was laid on Him.

bones327

10/18/2002 11:38:30 PM

Human1: Of course I accept the Torah, the prophets and the writings. What you call OT, I call Tanakh. The concept of OT fits with replacement theologists, who are anti-semetic. OT means old or out of favor, NT means good and current. Gee, I wonder why they called Tanakh "old." Yeshua never did that. For Him, Tanakh was and is Scripture. It is Tanakh that foretells Yeshua. He said that Moses wrote of Him. It is Tanakh that Yeshua explained and amplified.

bones327

10/18/2002 11:31:13 PM

Dovid 3. G-d instructed Abraham to sacrifice Isaac on Mt. Moriah. It was when Abraham was willing not to withhold his only son that G-d knew Abraham was the one through whom he would bless the world. Deut. 13:1 says G-d abhors burning people to death. That doesn't stop Him from saying that Israelites should stone fellow Israelites to death for violating Shabbos or other important commandments. For example, what is the punishment for harlotry? There was no proscription against sacrificing people who committed sins to take the Lord's reproach away from Israel.

bones327

10/18/2002 11:24:08 PM

Dovid: 1. Tell me please, how do you know if someone is truly a Davidic descendent? The official geneologies were lost with the last Temple. Noone can prove they are from the Davidic line with right to the throne of David. Without hard evidence, none can lawfully take the throne. 2. Yom Kipor fasts do not take the place of biblical sacrifices. Anyone who says that they do is stretching Torah for their own purposes and because they refuse to accept the post-Torah proclamations of G-d's prophets, which are part of the Tanakh. The Torah says the sacrifices that must be made to atone for each respective sin are statutes "FOREVER." When, in G-d's economy did that "forever" change? The answer is that "forever" is forever, unless G-d is a liar. If G-d is a liar, heaven forbid, then none of what we believe about Him is worth the lambskin it's written on.

Dovidl

10/18/2002 04:18:45 PM

Bones, thank you but I don't need you to tell me what I have to do if I violate a commandment. G-d knows there are no sacrifices and I know what I have to do to atone. As for all the prophecies, yes we're waiting for moshiach, and yes, there are decendants of David available when one will be needed. For all of you that don't understand why Jews don't accept Jesus, please reread Deut.13 and ask yourselves if human sacrifice fits that. You all have a Good Shabbos, okay?

human1

10/18/2002 10:17:39 AM

I can certainly understand the last poster, and greatly appreciate the posts from bones327. I am a Christian. However there are many uses to which that word has been applied...which leave me prefering to say I am a Christ-follower. I do believe in the Bible, the OT and NT. I want to ask once more....in what regard (if any) do Messianic Jews hold the Old Testament which I follow? I'm only wishing to learn your perspective. Can anyone answer?

papawray

10/18/2002 08:11:49 AM

I do not care to be called a Christian. I am a Messianic Jew. I believe in the risen Messiah, Yeshua Moshiach. Through the error of Replacement Theology,Jews have been displaced, slaughtered, and demeaned as a Race for centuries by the Church under the banner of the cross.I prefer to wear my cross of David. This makes me no less Jewish, but stengthens my idenity.

bones327

10/18/2002 01:22:05 AM

Blessed are you who overcome the stumbling blocks to find your personal relationship with the Father. By the way, Dovid, when the Tabernacle and later the Holy Temples stood, you did need an intermediary. He was Cohen Hagadol (high priest) who had to be ceremonially pure to offer the sacrifices for the people. Not just anyone could go into the Holy of Holies. If one not authorized to be the people's intermediary came before the Mercy Seat before the Ruach Hakodesh (Holy Spirit/Shekinah glory of G-d) improperly, that one would be struck dead. Just review the Exodus story about what happened to Aaron's sons who tried to do just that. G=d struck them down!

bones327

10/18/2002 12:56:33 AM

Payne, you are too hung up on tradition. Following traditions of their fathers is what separated my people from following the requirements of Torah. If you stick with Torah, the prophets and he writings, you come to Messiah, who is the Flower of Judaism, the culmination of all of the Father's promises.

bones327

10/18/2002 12:49:24 AM

Dovid, can you hear me? Oh, how I suffer because my people's eyes are closed and their ears do not hear. But my Father in Heaven has promised that their eyes would be opened; that they would recognize their Messiah and mourn his loss as one mourns for after the death of a first born son. Oh, Jerusalem, who kills the messengers sent to you. How often my Lord wanted to gather you as a hen gathers chicks under its wings. But you wouldn't have him. You couldn't recognize your King when he came as Isaiah's foretold suffering servant. You wanted the conquering King. You will get Him that way when He comes back to enjoy his permanent reign on the Throne of His father David.

bones327

10/18/2002 12:31:28 AM

Dovid: Pt. 4 In Yeshayahu (Isaiah for the Goyim) G-d foretold that Moshiach would come forth from the dried up root of Jesse (King Dovid's father), would be born of a maiden, would be G-d, who would be a child born to us, upon whose shoulders the government would rest; foretold the character of Moshiach and the nature of his work. In Daniel, G-d foretold the exact time Moshiach would be present in the Eretz Yisroel (the land of Israel); and, that he would be killed, but not for himself, and that he would return after being cut off from the land of the living. In Micah, G-d foretold where Moshiach would be born. In the Psalms, G-d foretold that the Moshiach would be assasinated in a way unknown at the time. In Ezekiel, G-d foretold that Moshiach would be pierced in his arms in the house of his friends.

bones327

10/18/2002 12:28:46 AM

Dovid: Pt.3 In Kings and Chronicals, G-d foretold that Moshiach would be born into the line of David and that his kingdom would last forever. At the Babylonian captivity, G-d cut off the kingly line of Soloman from ever again reaching the throne (for the sins of Jehoichim). In Jeremiah 31, the Father foretold the need for a new way to get back into relationship with him.

bones327

10/18/2002 12:27:36 AM

Dovidl: Part 2. In Bereshit (Genesis for y'all) G-d foretold that Moshiach (Messiah) would be of a woman's seed; would be born into the line of Abraham, into the line of Isaac, into the line of Jacob, into the line of Judah.

bones327

10/18/2002 12:01:29 AM

Dovidl: May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord cause his face to shine upon you and give you peace. I can hear through your words that you are seeking a personal, direct relationship with the Father, Baruch HaShem. G-d knows we are not perfect and cannot be perfect, as He is perfect. He has given us Torah to know right from wrong. Further, through Torah G-d tells you what you must do, if you violate any of the 613 commandments of Torah. Have you ever, intentionally or negligently, violated any of the Eternal's eternal laws? If you have, have you performed the sacrifice that the Torah's laws command you to perform to restore your relationship with the Father? Unfortunately, my brother, I know the answer to both questions, even though we have never met. Of course you have broken G-d's law; likewise, of course you have not fulfilled the Torah's prescription for satisfying G-d's requirements to return to your relationship with Him.

Dovidl

10/17/2002 11:40:52 PM

I found this article terribly sad. That an intelligent young lady such as this, with what seems to be a genuine knowledge of her own faith, feels the need to go looking where she will find nothing genuine saddens me. If she had explored Judaism thoroughly, she would have found it to be all she needed. She doesn't need human sacrifice, G-d doesn't expect people to be perfect, He only wants them to try to have a relationship with Him on His terms, and we don't need an intermediary for that. Do you think He thought we would be perfect? Does a father reject a child who isn't perfect? My prayer for this young woman is that she will do teshuvah and realize she doesn't have to look for her Father among strangers.

Payne

10/17/2002 11:26:10 PM

3.)"I refuse to believe that my acceptance of Yeshua as my Messiah makes me any less Jewish." If you were born to a Jewish mother, then I don't see how any Christian or Jew could object to your being called a "Jewish Christian." Your being a Christian cannot make you any less Jewish if you were born to a Jewish mother. However, you are practicing a form of Christianity. So I think most Jews and some Christians would reject to you saying you are practicing some form of Judaism.

Payne

10/17/2002 11:19:48 PM

2.)"By becoming a believer in Yeshua as your saviour and thus a 'Christian,' what you really are becoming is a Jew by adoption into the family of God." You may by becoming a believer in Jesus as your savior be adopted as a member of the family of God. However you do not become a Jew. A Jew has traditionally been defined as one who has a Jewish mother or has converted to Judaism. You might say that you become a member of one of the groups that "descended" from the ancient Israelites (the Christian Church), and therefore an Israelite. But you do not become a Jew, a member of the other group that descended from the ancient Israelites.

Payne

10/17/2002 11:10:05 PM

bones327, 1.)"Any changes that have been made after that statement [that Jesus 'would not change one yod or stroke of the Torah'] were self-serving alterations made by people whose agendas were different from our Lord's agenda." Assuming this is the case, why do you accept the New Testament, or the Brit Hadasha as you call it, in the form we have it today? The New Testament canon as we know it today was put together by early Christian bishops, not by Jesus' earliest Jewish followers. I'm not sure we can ever go back with much certainty to the time before those "people whose agendas were different from our Lord's agenda" took over Christianity. A lot of Christians would point to Apostolic Succession and ecumenical councils, meetings of the Apostles' successors, as evidence that their Church was never taken over by "people whose agendas were different from our Lord's agenda."

human1

10/17/2002 08:26:50 PM

crystalclearone....huh? No pun intended...but your a bit muddied today.

Crystalclearone

10/17/2002 05:54:10 PM

Jesus Christ was the Jewish son of Mary. Does that mean Mary is God? God is a Jewish mother? I am confused why the pope won't ordain women ministers of Marys church. To follow in the footsteps of the Rabbi Jesus Christ of Nazareth, is to live a simple ascetic life of gentle kindness. To love thy neighbour, To love thine enemy, To love thy god with all your heart, To love thyself. Jesus Christ walked among the poorest sinners showing love, kindness, mercy and real salvation. He fed the poor. He healed the sick. He sheltered prostitutes from unjust punishment. He overturned the tables of the money changers profitting from their place in the temples. Corporate elite temple owners turfed by Jesus, got even with him by writing the "National Inquirer" version of the history of his life and spiritual revolution. They gutted it a few hundred years after his death.

human1

10/17/2002 05:47:37 PM

loko....weren't the verses you offered in your post actually the verses Jesus gave in response to being asked, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?".(Mark 12:28) Additionally, when approached by the "rich young man" in Matthew 19:16, he was asked what the man must do to get eternal life? Jesus responded, in short, to follow the law to perfection....at which the man went away sad, and the disciples listening were astonished realizing this would be impossible...they asked Jesus "Who then can be saved?". Jesus said "with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Turning the focus back to the fact that man can do nothing in order to receive eternal life, but rather eternal life can only be given as a gift by God...and rec'd as a gift from God. Our efforts to do the good things Jesus taught we should do, is actually our way of showing God our thankfulness for His choosing to offer the gift of forgiveness and eternal life, through Jesus dieing in our place.

human1

10/17/2002 05:33:09 PM

(cont)I tend to believe that one is saved at the point when they recognize their separatedness from God due to sin, and place faith in the accomplished works of Jesus the Son of God for their reconciliation and eternal life. I feel that at that point they are saved....and then God does come and increase their knowledge to see the diety of Jesus. I still find it confusing...and perhaps it is something I won't understand in this earthly life. Thanks for sharing.

human1

10/17/2002 05:32:31 PM

sunshine, and sorwitt, I agree with all you said. I hold those beliefs personally. However, I posed the question hoping to hear more from believers. I find myself wondering about the true point of salvation. I see the example of the thief on the cross who was saved. I have seen new believers who are saved, yet it is a bit "down the road" when they come to fully understand that Jesus was actually God. There is great significance to the diety of Jesus...and I completely believe He is God. Many religions come so very close to all that is true about Him...but always stop short of recognizing He is God. Often those religions view Christians as heretics for the teaching of Jesus' deity. I am trying to gain in wisdom regarding the process of salvation.

srowitt

10/17/2002 01:27:53 PM

Sunshine- Amen. To others who have yet to receive the revelation of the identity of Messiah, a mere human would be under the condemnation of sin, not from action alone, but due to the sin nature that all mere humans are afflicted with. If He is only a special human, He nullifies the truth that 'all have sinned..." and He can only die for the sins of one other person. Being a Jewish believer, I have seen the reality of people coming to the place of faith, first and foremost, in the redeeming death, burial and resurrection of the Messiah. The Holy Spirit will reveal other truth in His time. The commandment from Messiah is to repent (change you thinking) and believe the Good News (of Messiah's atoning sacrifice for your sins). Hope this helps. Stever

sunshine2777

10/17/2002 01:03:16 PM

1 Corinthian 1:18...."For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."..............In defense of a belief in the Savior who died for our sins, I cant say it any better than this.

loko

10/17/2002 10:51:38 AM

All this talk about the requirement of a Savior to die for our sins, accepting him as a savior, etc. does not appear to agree with what Jesus himself preached. After all, when being asked what was needed to attain eternal life, he replied to love God with all your heart, soul and might (which he borrowed from Deut. 6:5) and to love your neighbor as yourself (borrowed from Lev. 19:18). Jesus never talked about "originial sin" and how his death was supposed to be an atonement for our sins. He never even talked about the trininty. I think Christians should rather focus on what Jesus actually said; not how his message/life was interpreted by Paul and all the other self-appointed "apostles."

sunshine2777

10/17/2002 08:19:30 AM

contd....... the whole of salvation is based upon the fact that our Lord did die for our sins and that He did rise again and ascend into heaven... and that He is the Son of God and God Himself in the flesh.... so, i guess... no, you cant be saved unless you believe what Jesus said... and what happened.. a life and walk of faith is based on this... Christianity in its truest sense is based upon a relationship w/ Jesus....theres no religion in there.. and when you look at an awesome God who came down into time, put on flesh and suffered and died in our place for our sins so we could spend eternity w/ Him, well, how could you not love Him and want to live His way... true Christianity is a relationship, its a lifestyle, and its a wonderful experience. I wouldnt go back to this world's ways if you paid me.... I know I may not be good with words but I hope you can gleem some explanation from my words... and that ifyou are searching, I pray that God opens your eyes to Him and His truth. God bless.<

sunshine2777

10/17/2002 08:19:10 AM

human1:do you mind if i answer your question to excelfitpat? regarding salvation?... there is more to it than just a general belief that there was "a Jesus"...Jesus is either everything He said He was or He was a complete liar and a fraud...so you cant pick and choose which so many do these days...which makes the bible either God's Word and completely true or a book of lies...so here's where you bring the unseen into the picture...faith... to truly believe in Jesus and be saved by Him is a spiritual matter of the heart and head.. its a matter of being reborn again in your spirit...its simple.. if you truly seek Him and ask Him to reveal to you the truth and then believe that He will, He will show you and give you understanding... and if you truly know the truth, its easy to ask Him into your heart and to believe all that He is..

Thessalonica84

10/17/2002 03:11:16 AM

What hinders people the most is when ethnicity and religion/path of belief are joined. Just as in the early days recounted in the Bible, and even today, Jews essentially consider themselves a separate race (as their views on marrying a non-Jew will show). Perhaps much of this confusion will be put to rest if this common practice/affirmity {is that a word? :)} were to cease. (Think about it; it's just like saying if you are Black [yes I said Black, b/c I'm Black, not African-American, b/c I was not born in Africa, and pol. correctness is another concept that needs to go. But that's another disscussion board.] that you can't be saved.)

Goyboy

10/16/2002 06:02:34 PM

According to the book of Acts, at the time of the Apostle Paul's arrest in Jerusalem, Paul was demonstrating that he continued to follow the Torah as recorded in the Tanak. Messianic Jews are merely following in Paul's footsteps. IMHO Messianic Jews have not left Judaism at all. Instead they acknowledge the requirement for atonement given in the Tanak. That requirement involves a blood sacrifice. Both Christians and Messianic Jews acknowledge that the blood of Y'shua the Messiah fulfills the Tanak's requirement for atonement.

human1

10/16/2002 05:14:59 PM

excelfitpat, question....in regard to having the "out of jail free" card. Is that card generally believing there was a Jesus who died in our place....and I believe in him and that sacrifice? Or, is it necessary to also hold more specifically that Jesus was God, also that He rose from the dead, and lives forever in heaven? In other words, will you define precisely what a saving belief in Jesus consists of. Does seeing him as a man, teacher, prophet, or God impact salvation?

xcelfitpat

10/16/2002 04:09:58 PM

Last point, continued. I am, however, somewhat suspicious of the proclamation from the Vatican that states that Catholics no longer need to worry about converting their Jewish brothers since their original covenant with God is now deemed sufficient for their salvation. After all, the Catholic Church does not have the greatest track record for openness and honesty with our Jewish brethren. Just look at how long it took for the Church to finally issue some semblance of an apology to the Jews about their dealings with Hitler during World War II. I believe that God sent His son, Jesus Christ, here to die for us so that we could have our own Monopoly version of a "get out of jail free card". Anyone without this card will be subjected to a much more difficult judgement process; and to be quite honest, I wouldn't want to have to depend on just how lawful and good of a life I led here on Earth as the deciding factor in whether or not I made it into Heaven.

xcelfitpat

10/16/2002 04:01:59 PM

As for the article "Girl Meets God", I thought it was a wonderful, touching article. There's a good chance that I will end up reading the book as well. Although as a Christian I believe that only through God and Christ can one reach Heaven, that doesn't stop me from having relationships/friendships with people from all faiths and ethnicities. As a Christian, however, I am also obligated to attempt to help them come into a personal relationship with Christ. I'm not pushy, but the Great Commision given to us by Christ was to go out into the world and lead men to Him. These friends are also welcome to discuss their faith with me as well and I am always willing to listen. After all, if you love someone, you will always be concerned with their eternal prospects.

srowitt

10/16/2002 04:00:53 PM

Part II - conclusion The opening of the doors to the Gentiles was a prophetic fulfillment concerning the ministry of the Messiah, that He would be a light to the Gentiles. Every generation since the beginning of the CE there have been Jewish believers in the Jewish Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth. Gentiles convert, Jews come home to their God and Messiah. Another misconception promoted by anti-missionaries and other Christian religious groups. Jewish antimissionaries use the tactic of fear of losing one's Jewish identity to keep Jewish people from examining the claims of Jesus of Nazareth to being the Messiah, the Holy One of Israel. Grace to all.

srowitt

10/16/2002 04:00:16 PM

One of the problems concerning this subject has to do with the misconception that being Christian is somehow the same as being Gentile. Often Jewish sources, journalistic sources and others promote this untruth and it confuses an already difficult subject. Let's start by stating the following facts. Jewish people in the first 10 year post resurrection of the Messiah were the only members of the body of Messiah. The Older and Newer Testaments are Jewish books, written by Jewish people, about the Jewish Messiah (even Luke would have been a proselyte to the Judaism of the first century CE). Part I

xcelfitpat

10/16/2002 03:45:47 PM

As a fairly conservative, non-denominational Christian I would just like to say that there is no way you can be a Christian without accepting the Bible in it's entirety. That means Old and New Testament. If you want to discuss what books the Catholics and Protestants wish to include in the Bible then that is a discussion for another day. The Old Testament is to the New Testament like physics, chemistry, and calculus are to engineering; you could never understand engineering without having a firm grasp of the fundamentals of these other foundational areas of study. Any studied Christian is aware of just how many prophecies Christ fulfilled during his short lifetime here on Earth. As for jkopanko and his assertion about the evolution of Christianity; you can't be a Christian and not accept the deification of Christ and the trinity. You're welcome to keep trying, but I wouldn't want to be you on judgement day.

human1

10/16/2002 02:05:40 PM

bones327....thank you for sharing. You have enriched my understanding. I am however, always eager to learn more. I agree with all you said. I think perhaps Bardmountain and us others are wanting to hear that there is a distinction between Jew and Christian. There is, isn't there? Jewish people do not believe Jesus was the Messiah. Messianic Jewish believers do. Perhaps that is the distiction. I am a Christian, and was lead to be one through the study of the Old Testament and New Testament. I cannot tell you how much I love learning more about the Jewish roots of Christianity. I wonder as I go, how a Messianic Jewish believer views the Old Testament. Can you share that? Is it respected, or seen as inaccurate...lacking...what is your opinion? I also feel you believe that Jesus was/is God...do you also believe in His resurrection and placement as our one and final Priest on High...from the order of Melchizedek? Do you believe in His future return? Many thanks. H1

bardmountain

10/16/2002 08:22:54 AM

bones327, Wow, that's a very well thought out argument! I would say, though, that I differ a bit with your argument that "There is no doctrinal difference between Judaism and Christianity", and that seems to come from the way we define those terms. To me, Christianity and Judaism are defined as a set of common beliefs held by those repsective groups of people. Christians tend to have one common set of beliefs, and Judaism has it's own set of beliefs. Christians would probably all say Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins. That's at the core of Christianity. Judasim, however, does not generally recognize the New Testament, and does not believe that Jesus was one son of God. I would tend to see that as an irreconcilable doctrinal difference. I think you define Judaism and Christianity by a particular interpretation of the Bible, regardless of what the body of Christians and Jews today tend to believe. By that definition, I can see your point.

bones327

10/16/2002 07:28:47 AM

Part 8. Now, is the God of Moses' Torah, a singular entity? He says He is a plural entity. I believe in God, I believe in the Father, I believe in Yeshua, I believe in the Ruach Hakodesh (The Holy Spirit). How can believing the Torah make me less Jewish? There is no doctrinal difference between Judaism and "Christianity." People have made up differences where God intended none.

bones327

10/16/2002 07:28:03 AM

Part 7. Genesis 18:1-17 (Promise of Birth of Isaac, Imminent destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah) "The Lord appeared to him by the terebinths of Mamre; he was sitting at the entrance of his tent as the day grew hot. Looking up, he saw three men standing near him. As soon as he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to greet them and bowing to the ground he said, 'My Lord, if it please you, do not go on past your servant. . . They replied 'Do as you have said' . . . They said to him 'Where is your wife, Sarah?'. . . The Lord said to Abraham, 'Why did Sarah laugh. . .?' . . . The men set out from there and looked down toward Sodom, Abraham walking with them to see them off. Now the Lord had said, 'Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do . . .?"

bones327

10/16/2002 07:26:46 AM

Part 6. The Torah is full of God's references to Himself in the plural. Many of these references are quickly found in the book of Genesis. The following Scriptural quotes are taken from the Jewish Publication Society's Tanakh, so their essential Jewishness canot be questioned as "Christian" revisions of the Torah to meet a "Christian" agenda. Genesis 1:26 (Creation) "And God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." Genesis 11:5-7 (Tower of Babel) "The Lord came down to look at the city and tower that man had built, and the Lord said, 'If, as one people with one language for all, this is how they have begun to act, then nothing that they may propose to do will be out of their reach. Let us, then, go down and confound their speech there so that they shall not understand one another's speech.'"

bones327

10/16/2002 07:25:24 AM

Part 5. As to the reference that Judaism and Christianity are doctrinally different and thus irreconcilable, I say this: The essential doctrinal "difference" is that Judaism says "Shema Yisroel, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai echad," = "Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." Christianity says that God is a three part singularity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is no distinction between these doctrines. The word "Echad," from the quoted Scripture means one, but not a singularity. Echad means one in the sense that encapsulates the plural, e.g. one cluster of grapes, one tribe of people, one set of beliefs.

bones327

10/16/2002 07:23:36 AM

Part 4. As to Payne's statement "you are either Christian or you are not," I say this: By becoming a believer in Yeshua as your saviour and thus a "Christian," what you really are becoming is a Jew by adoption into the family of God. Yeshua is the Vine; by joining Him, you are joining what he was and is: a Jew.

bones327

10/16/2002 07:20:15 AM

Part 2. Yeshua said in his famous Sermon on the Mount that he would not change one yod or stroke of the Torah. These are references to the tiniest marks made in the handwritten scrolls that make up the Mosaic Books. Any changes that have been made after that statement were self-serving alterations made by people whose agendas were different from our Lord's agenda. What was that, that all should be saved and none lost.

bones327

10/16/2002 07:19:02 AM

Part I. I am Mesianic Jewish Believer. I refuse to believe that my acceptance of Yeshua as my Messiah makes me any less Jewish. I am always surprised by the so-called "Christian" attitude that the Bible begins at the Book of Matthew. This is akin to believing you can live on the second story of a two story building that is without a foundation or 1st floor. All Brit Hadasha (NT) authors' references to Scripture are to the Tanakh (Torah, Writings and Prophets); they knew no other Scripture. There was no other Scripture. (By the way, Brit Hadasha means "New Covenant," which is the New Covenant that the Lord promised to the Jews, and the rest of the world, should those people choose to accept it, which is referred to in the Book of Jeremiah 31:31.)

Payne

10/16/2002 01:02:17 AM

The New Testament books were WRITTEN by Apostles and likely used by the early church before the third century. But the books weren't compiled into THE New Testament in its present form until 367 A.D. This is after the Christian Church and rabbinic Judaism had begun to go their separate ways.

valueadder

10/16/2002 12:56:33 AM

It is through the listening part that we create universal, win-win happiness instead of simply self-happiness.

valueadder

10/16/2002 12:54:57 AM

I also enjoy chanting, meditating, singing, and dancing. By themselves, they can be temporarily uplifiting. However, for sustainable happiness, we need to listen as well, and be guided by God. All combined, I experience the fullness of joy and living.

Crystalclearone

10/16/2002 12:29:26 AM

Well here is an Anglican-Catholic who finds the rythmic prayer like chanting, song and dancing of the Sufis inspiring. Is it me, or do most of the news, articles and posts on Beliefnet favour the patriarchy, secular materialism, the state (USA, Israel and Saudi Arabia), Judaism and Christianity? Just one question for balance to the editors of Beliefnet. Please do not delete this post without cause.

valueadder

10/16/2002 12:21:25 AM

Payne, the Bible is also very unique because God authenticated it as His revelation after it was written and canonized. "The authentication of the Bible by Ar-Rahman is very important for Muslims. With this authentication, Ar-Rahman (Jesus) told Muslims that they could always come back to His revelations in the Bible when all the original writings or the reciters of Muhammad, including those done in the presence of Muhammad, were eventually destroyed by the will of men" (Building Sustainable World Peace Under Jesus CEO, p. 132).

valueadder

10/16/2002 12:15:41 AM

The New Testament books were written by the Apostles or Disciples within the circle of the Apostles in the first century when eyewitnesses to the life and resurrection of Jesus were still alive. Jesus gave the writers of the New Testament divine power to heal the sick and raise the dead as a sign of His authority and inspiration.

Matachi

10/15/2002 08:50:02 PM

I am suspicious of Messianic Jewish folks.

truthshines

10/15/2002 06:02:25 PM

There are three Jewish religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Payne

10/15/2002 06:00:19 PM

jkopanko, Yes, Christianity should and is changing in order to acknowledge its Jewish roots. However we cannot go back to the time "before the consolidation of authority into a centralized burocracy in the early centuries A.D." If Christians do want to emphasize "the moral example of Jesus teaching . . . in light of modern scholarship of the history of" diversity in early Christianity, then they must let go of the New Testament canon, the creeds, and the ecumenical councils. Messianic Jews use the Tanak and the New Testament (the call it the Brit Hadasha). This is revisionism. The New Testament was put together by the Christian Church, not the early Jewish followers of Jesus.

bardmountain

10/15/2002 01:33:58 PM

I think this is a wonderful article, full of hope for our future. Too often our religion is like a glass house we surround ourselves with for protection against forces we can't understand. Soon our glass house becomes our world. Any contrary opinion, even if given in love and compassion, is a threat to our small glass worlds, and we react with anger, fear, and aloof condensation. Here we see a case of what can happen when people step outside of their own glass houses and listen openly to the ideas and wisdom of others. From a doctrinal standpoint, Judaism and Christianity have irreconsilable differences. But here the author shows that by stepping outside of doctrine and listening to one another with an open mind we can find both wisdom and commonality with people of another faith.

human1

10/15/2002 01:15:37 PM

I have not read a more beautiful article at B-net than this. I will buy this book. The experiences are shared with such honesty and humility. The enriching perspective gained by details given from Jewish insight into the astonishing beauty of God fulfilling the OT promises with the NT actions are so rich and satisfying. The Christian heritage is Jewish. This has always been, and thank heavens for things unchanging. As a Christian I always marvel at God when a teaching draws from Jewish tradition/belief and culimnates with the power of all God did in becoming Emanuel, Jesus. I feel all to often, Christians do only emphasize the NT, and treat the OT as "history" so to speak. The two are married and one magnifies and compliments the other. Thanks B-net for inviting us to hear Lauren's testimony.

akbusch

10/15/2002 12:11:28 PM

I like a number of things about this excerpt, especially the sense that Ms. Winner's visit to the Messianic Jewish congregation was but one part of a long, complex journey. I also like her honesty about her criticisms of her worship experience. To try to mix Judaism and Christianity may indeed be revisionism, as Payne said, but we need to be clear on what we're trying to mix: culture? theology? It's not simple or easy in any case. We also need to remember that the New Testament is (mostly) a Jewish document, and that Christianity was seen, in its first 90 years, as a sect of Judaism. Saul/Paul was a Pharisee, educated by Gamaliel, the "Harvard" of rabbis!

jkopanko

10/15/2002 08:52:03 AM

"Judeo-Christian" is an over-played concept used primarily to exclude the rest of the people of the world from a seeming "basic commonality" between these two religions. Of course they are historically related and interconnected. However we should realize that when we celebrate some "Judeo-Christian" tradition (which historically was often marked by persecution, intolerance, and ghettoization), we are actually symbolically, selectively binding together, to form another marginalized "other" (namely the rest of the world).

Oversoul

10/15/2002 08:50:44 AM

If the author values a Jewish prayer that focuses on God's mercy, then what value is there in Jesus dying for her sins? If God is already merciful, then why the need for human sacrifice?

delfentor

10/15/2002 08:37:20 AM

"Girl Meets God" is probably one of the best articles about a spiritual journey that I have read in a long time. Paul had been jewish but there is little mention of his former religios experience. I have a friend who combines her husband's Jewish faith with her christain umbringing and her interfaith ministry. Lauren's spiritual experience is deeply moving. Her story brings new life to the term Judeo-Christain. We are beads on the same roseary. Prayers of God resonating with spiritual passion and hope in Christ. Or whatever anyone chooses to name the holy presence of Spirit.

jkopanko

10/14/2002 07:53:16 PM

I disagree with Payne's summation. While this is the traditional analysis, I think Christianity is inevitably changing in character into something that is less superstitious and dogmatic, and more universal with an emphasis on on the moral example of Jesus teaching, and rather than on the 3-in-one godhead, the deification of Jesus, etc. In fact many Christian people today do no longer accept such traditional dogma, particularly in light of modern scholarship of the history of the suprising diversity for early Christian development, and the consolidation of authority into a centralized burocracy in the early centuries A.D. As the social democratic West continues to develop and advance, much of Christianity will inevitably take a much more benign approach to dogmatic exclusivity, in a way similar to Buddhism--to the extent which Christianity is retained. This will necessitate revisiting these questions.

Payne

10/14/2002 07:19:30 PM

I think Winner was right at first. Messianic Judaism is revisionism. In traditionally Judaism you are either born Jewish or you convert; you are either Jewish or not. In Christianity, to paraphrase St. Paul, there is neither Jew nor gentile; you are either Christian or you are not. Judaism and Christianity split two thousand years ago. It is revisionism to try to mix them now.

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