A Reply to Rabbi Boteach

There's no cabal, but there is a segment of Hollywood's secular Jewish community that is anti-Catholic.

jolesley

01/08/2005 02:52:21 PM

I believe the Rabbi had reason to be upset, there are definiely some anti-semitic comments here, and if you're being anti-semitic what does it matter whether you are talking about secular or religious Jewish people. I think anti-semitism is awful.

eastcoastlady

01/06/2005 09:14:08 PM

Truly, Thanks so much for the compliment. Likewise, I enjoyed your post. I have often found that things that I would normally admire in a person (education, ambition/goal orientation, etc) can often make one the butt of hatred, jealousy, envy, as you stated. I have a neighbor who personifies this odd behavior. I have tried for 7 years in vain to be her friend (call me stubborn), only to find she would just as soon stab me in the back, totally unable to identify with anything other than her own point of view. Go figure.

trulyalarmed

01/06/2005 02:24:47 PM

eastcoast- excellent post. do you think it could be they(the "secular jews" donohue is railing against)have whatever "it" is makes those who do not, jealous or envious? they have something that has defined their careers as successful, they maybe prominant because they have leadership qualities, they may possess a different work ethic, received a better education, do not take what they have for granted, and instead of these things being deemed positive attributes, they are insulted by those who do not possess the same values thus they are a threat instead of an asset to society. it seems to me the namecalling and hatemongering donohue and others present when singling "those secular jews" in hollywood out are creating an diversion to defend their jealous and envious attitude, but are in denial of it.

drakvl

01/06/2005 12:42:57 PM

Entertainment is a numbers game: more viewers means more people watching commercials, means more money. How can one maximize viewers? Don't single out support for one particular religion at the expense of others. This seems a better explanation for why "Hollywood accepts spirituality but shies away from endorsing, or even tolerating, organized religion:" most people in America don't put religion at #1 priority. It's not that Hollywood has a large number of secular Jewish folk; it's that Hollywood is Hollywood. People who don't take this approach aren't likely to make it.

eastcoastlady

01/05/2005 12:24:13 PM

anti-epi: for the sake of discussion, let's say that some Jews do have some power in Hollywood. Address the following: 1. Why do you have a problem with that? 2. Would you prefer there is no Jewish voice in Hollywood? 3. Would you prefer only Gentiles have "power" or "control" in Hollywood? 4. How has it impacted you, and in what very specific ways, by having Jews have some power in Hollywood? 5. How do you define "power" or "control"?

antiochusepiphanes

01/04/2005 01:31:25 PM

I find some of the posts added here since some were diverted to the miniforums lopsided. The idea that Jewish people do not have power in America today including Hollywood ignores facts. Ben Stein has an essay about Jewish control of Hollywood; and in JJ Goldberg's book Jewish power he devotes a whole chapter to Jewish control of the media. And, yet, when a Gentile makes the point he is called a hater?

jacknky

01/03/2005 02:17:22 PM

well said, joshua.

joshuaclementgood

01/01/2005 05:14:18 AM

Historically, Jews have been the victims of unreasoned hatred by Christians, who have had all the power. If some modern secular Jews actually do hate Christianity and Catholicism, at least there is some reason for it. But it is a specious assumption to equate opposition and hatred. Catholicism and Christianity in general have enormous propaganda power, but opposition to their ideas or activities in society at large is not unfair, all things considered...

joshuaclementgood

01/01/2005 05:00:56 AM

Recently, some Christian voices have been sounding alarms about "anti-Christian" forces in media. In a propaganda war, it's a strategy to deflect criticism, to accuse your ideological opponent of being motivated by bigotry or hatred. "Anti-Catholic" or "anti-Christian" seems to imply an underlying hatred, or even a campaign to damage or destroy the religion. They seem to think that their message and viewpoint should be uncritically endorsed and never opposed, rebutted or criticized. When people are simply practicing their religions within the boundaries of their own homes and churches, their beliefs and opinions are sacrosanct. But when they try to exert social and political power, they enter into the realm of secular media and general society, the public marketplace of ideas. In that arena, anyone's activities, speech, views, etc. are subject to rebuttal and debate. Why would secular Jews in Hollywood, or anyone else in secular media, blithely facilitate a Catholic/Christian agenda?

tgflux

01/01/2005 01:21:53 AM

I have just one thing to say to Donohue: "People who pretend to be victims, are *excruciating* to those they victimize."

geebrr

12/31/2004 02:01:28 PM

It is disturbing to see all this cloaked and uncloaked anti-Semitism rising again. I am a former Catholic because of people like Donohue. As to Hollywood and religious themes - Duh! The holy grail is money and is achieved by developing products that appeal to the widest possible audience and that can be recycled as often as possible. Ergo, spiritual themes that everyone can identify with rather than religion specific. The fact that Hollywood has not become part of the fundamentalist propaganda machine of recent years is an unintended benefit of its need to appeal to national and worldwide markets. Individuals like Mel Gibson can risk fortunes on niche projects (it was his own money, remember, but execs with public companies do not have the same luxury.

ecorebbe

12/30/2004 09:53:53 PM

How many Jews, pagans, American Indians, Africans, Moslems, and Protestants have been invited to the Church's occaisional auto-de-fe because they were suspected of heresy, witchcraft, secretly being of their ancestral religion? After 1650 years of Church "love" being shown to others, and duplicated by the Protestants when they obtained the reigns of power, is it any wonder that a great anti-religion movement arose in Catholic France and Germany which created the humanistic and secular movement that Mr Donohue now rails against as being "anti-Catholic?" Perhaps those who view the world as needing to grant equality to ALL people and not just a select majority or religious view have a reason for having a wee bit of hostility towards such an intolerant religion.

ecorebbe

12/30/2004 09:53:10 PM

I wonder if William Donohue has ever looked closely at the HISTORY of the relationship between the Holy Roman Catholic Church and people of other religions since they became the secular as well as the religious power machine in the days of Constintine? What happened to those divergent Christian groups who countered the claim of Rome for the mantle of Christ?

Woodah

12/30/2004 11:28:47 AM

I think Mr. Donohue should explain what he means by "heavily" when he claims that "Hollywood" is "heavily Jewish." Jews comprise 2% of the American population, and about 0.35% of the world population, so I'm sure that there is a statistical over-representation in Hollywood. However, what are the exact figures? Are studio execs in Los Angeles 30% Jewish? 50%? I would appreciate some hard data to back this up. While you're at it, look up Jewish Nobel laureates. There's a statistical over-representation there too.

reynold926

12/30/2004 05:12:46 AM

I'd like to point out that anti-Catholic programming wouldn't be so popular if it didn't resonant with its audience. There are some very real reasons many people hate the church (and I'm not just talking about the sex abuse scandal).

amilius

12/29/2004 10:18:57 PM

Note to Bill Donahue: The Sacred Mystery of the Holy Roman Catholic Church has already happened. He's back. He's also appalled at the number of churches engaging in systematic ungracious behavior in his name. How gracious and accepting is it to condemn any experience God has empowered us to create? We would all do well to focus on how he lived and taught than how he graciously accepted the cards we dealt him.

amilius

12/29/2004 10:10:45 PM

As a Catholic, I am always surprised that anyone takes the rantings of the arrogant, close-minded, and paranoid Mr. Donahue. He's the type of Catholic that has driven many from the Church. He speaks for a very small, fearful crew of latin-craving paranoid Catholics. Like many in the Bush administration, Mr. Donahue's sole qualification seems to be a willingness to push unpopular yet official perspectives as beneficial for civilization when they clearly are not. Why did Beliefnet waste space on this man's behalf?

Beliefnet_Tiger

12/29/2004 09:31:16 PM

Part of this discussion have been moved to the Judaism Debate board: Jews and Catholicism:Media Thank you, Beliefnet_Tiger Community Monitor

antiochusepiphanes

12/29/2004 12:00:44 PM

I want to thank Belief.net for carrying this excellent story. This website is very interesting.

antiochusepiphanes

12/29/2004 11:59:59 AM

I would add that EM Jones, who Donohue denounces, is a better man than Donohue because he does not back off of Jewish animus towards Christianity because "jews helped his career" like Donohue. In that sense, I find Mr Donohue's argument weak because he will not carry it through to a logical support of his friends against those presenting themselves as Enemies.

PrincessAmy

12/28/2004 01:45:39 PM

Blame the Founding Fathers for secularizing America. They wrote it into the Bill of Rights. The intent of the constitution, upheld over and over again, was to protect the rights of the minority against the rule of the majority.

YairbenAvraham

12/28/2004 09:33:08 AM

So. Maybe Hollywood's lack of interest is nothing more than a lack of interest. The bloody gore of the film is ONLY meaningful and powerful if you are a religious Christian. Stop blaming it on the Jews. Start recognizing it's a movie made for people of your religious persuasion or those leaning that direction. Not everyone in America wants to see such a film.

YairbenAvraham

12/28/2004 09:32:29 AM

Mr. Donohue, Apparently you lack a basic knowledge of Jewish history, and in your diatribe against Hollywood and your more recent defense of said diatribe, you continually miss a point. Look, The Passion is a movie filled with meaning for religious Christians. And that's it. Face it. It isn't a vast Jewish conspiracy. It's the fact that the lengthy reproduction of the torture and death of a Jew in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago is only interesting to those who have said tortured Jew as the head of their religion. People like you don't seem to get that Jesus' crucifixion was one of tens of thousands the Romans carried out against our people. It was not unique for us. Neither was Jesus. We know of at least 50 people in the first century that claimed to be messiah and were crucified.

Gufi

12/25/2004 10:39:05 PM

Mr. Donohue, Your reply is every bit as redolent of excrement as the hateful remarks that began this whole affair. First, whereas Rabbi Shmuely merely gave a film a bad review, you offend an entire race of people. Second, in your reply, you commit the same offense as you did in the original when you contemptuously sneer, "And you know who did the planting? Jews." Third, you show similar disrespect to women in general--and to Ms. Giroux in particular--when you admonish the rabbi thus: "That's no way to treat a lady." I'm sure Ms. Giroux is capable of standing up for herself and requires none of your false gallantry.

SquirleyWurley

12/25/2004 04:32:57 PM

Looking for offense everywhere, there always has to be someone to blame for it. Yet it was Catholics who, when they had power, created the inquisition and cruscades. The secular media (Jewish or Christian or whatever) has not done that in America, and for that, Bill should admit that the SECULAR JEWS have a MORAL HIGHGROUND OVER HIM AND THE RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION HE DEFENDS!

SquirleyWurley

12/25/2004 04:32:46 PM

Put in simple, Christian terms, Bill Donohue simply has trouble consistently displaying Spiritual Fruit. He is INFECTED by secularlism, by the ways of This World, in fact. All believers struggle with that, as do non-believers. This World says, be rude or arrogant to make a point, while Paul says love is not rude or arrogant. This World says, you can claim to be loving, while throwing insults back at an enemy, claiming you love truth and simply want them to see it, but Jesus said love your enemy and don't return evil for evil. So Bill Donohue is a pick-and-choose Christian, deeply infected by secularism. What Christian isn't? Is there any other kind? Well, let's just say Bill is a TEXTBOOK case.

jacknky

12/25/2004 11:00:20 AM

imdancin, horse-dooky. You need to find new myths. Those don't fly anymore. There are few communists anymore. No Bill Clinton, the Republicans have taken over the House, the Senate, most of the states. Talk radio and Fox spout conservative slants on everything. "faith-based initiatives" abound and you can't turn on the TV without seeing a minister preaching. If you don't like things the way they are, stop blaming liberals. Stop blaming anoyone. Ya'll are in charge.

jacknky

12/25/2004 10:55:28 AM

ariadne1, I think you hit the nail on the head. As a non-religious, flaming liberal secularist I feel a kinship toward Christians who use their faith to move toward love, compassion and inclusion. I feel antipathy toward Christians who use their faith to move toward divisive judgementalness and exclusion. I don't dislike Christians. I dislike narrow-mindedness. Peace...

windbender

12/24/2004 11:25:41 PM

Clyde5001 - Do me a favor, would you? The next time you're in the city, stop by the Stage Deli and have a knish. And just before you eat it, tell it I love it, would you?

windbender

12/24/2004 11:23:52 PM

dealS

clyde5001

12/24/2004 11:22:57 PM

Which is why I think Donohue revealed a hell of a lot more than religious prejudice.

windbender

12/24/2004 11:22:01 PM

This is the mentality with which every Jew in America deal on a daily basis. Go figure.

clyde5001

12/24/2004 11:21:33 PM

Ever notice that you never hear about a secular Catholic? Or protestant? But a Jew who has nothing to do with their religion is still a secular "Jew". Because no matter we do, we can never get the Jewishness out of the blood. The Nazis thought the same exact way. Even baptism couldn't wash a Jew clean.

windbender

12/24/2004 11:20:32 PM

imdancin - "Hollywood hates Christians." "Most have never even read the Koran to know what it really says." "The Ten Commandments cramps their style that is for sure." By "Hollywood", do you mean the city itself, or just everybody who lives there? Or maybe just movie actors and producers? Could it be the writers? Directors? Or is it just the ones that aren't Christian enough? Which ones would those be, I wonder. Hmm? And while we're at it, don't you also mean "unAmerican"? It's unAmerican not to be a Christian isn't it?

imdancin

12/24/2004 05:24:50 PM

Hollywood hates Christians. Every other religion is ok, but Christianity. Most have never even read the Koran to know what it really says. But they hate Christianity more than any other religion. Hollywood is no different then the pervasive slant of the dominant news organizations. CNN, CBS,ABC and NBC- not to mention the bias of the reporters and editorial writers at most major newspapers and magazines. Hollywood think of themselves as elites, supreme, the center of all things. They themselves are a cult in a way. There is no objective morality in Hollywood. They judge what is right and wrong. No judgments, no consequences. And no guilt. The Ten Commandments cramps their style that is for sure.

windbender

12/21/2004 08:04:34 PM

ariadne1 - Brilliant, absolutely brilliant! I can only add that the right vs. left ideology debate is about whether folks get to make their own medical, moral and religious/ethical choices or whether other folks, given adequate numbers and enough power, should be allowed to wrench those rights away. Chokmah - Horsesh*t.

Chokmah

12/21/2004 05:26:30 PM

There are anti-semitic Christians and there are anti-Christian Jews. The term 'anti-semitic' has lost all meaning today as it is often used in debate or argument to slander or accuse your opponent of some sort of racism when you start losing the argument. If someone disagrees with you just call them an 'anti-semite'. Some of the biggest anti-semites out there are other semites.

ariadne1

12/21/2004 04:28:20 PM

Religion has become the stand in, in the culture wars, for conservativism versus liberalism. It's not about the religion. It's about the interpretation of the religion. And it's about right versus left ideology.

ariadne1

12/21/2004 04:24:35 PM

Also, Hollywood is not hostile to Catholicism or Christianity in general but to conservatism. Many in Hollywood are not comfortable with traditional values. If an atheist was anti-abortion, against same sex marriage, and against stem cell research, they would be villified as much as a religious person who opposes those issues. On the other hand, if a religious person is anti-war, pro choice, against the death penalty, in favor of unions, and a whole host of other liberal things, they will be embraced by Hollywood.

ariadne1

12/21/2004 04:24:23 PM

However, it's also not true that all of Hollywood is hostile to religion. The brilliant, and secularly Jewish writer Aaron Sorkin created a show with a devoutly Catholic hero who is played by an actual devout Catholic. I'm talking about West Wing, whose main character, President Bartlet, played by Martin Sheen, has been shown clutching a rosary, agonizing over the death penalty, and quoting Scripture and going to church. Of course, West Wing is a show about liberal Democrats, and Sheen is an activist Catholic leftist. So, the question is, do these people object because there is no religion portrayed positvely on television or because it's not their brand of religion being portrayed?

ariadne1

12/21/2004 04:24:00 PM

In truth, it was a beautfiul show that dealt sensitively with the fault lines and disagreements between the liberals and conservatives in the Catholic Church. And the liberals were not always portrayed as correct either. And the show also had advisors from the Los Angeles Archdiocese. It took pains to get it right. How ironic, then, that Donahaue now objects to Hollywood's animus towards religion and portraying it. When "Nothing Sacred" tanked, it virtually ensured that Hollywood would be gun shy about presenting religiously geared entertainment for years to come.

ariadne1

12/21/2004 04:23:34 PM

I don't usually agree with William Donahue because he is far more conservative than I am. But I don't think he's an anti semite. However, I think some of his own actions have caused Hollywood to avoid positive portrayals of religion and religious people, at least in tv shows. Fo example, he was the major force, years ago, in the failure of the television show, "Nothing Sacred," because he felt it was anti-Catholic.

watsy

12/21/2004 04:07:34 PM

windbender, The same to you. I probably won't be around much for the next week, but I'll be thinking about you. Peace and health in the New Year to all b-netters!!!

windbender

12/21/2004 03:39:49 PM

marirev - I have come to appreciate and respect the genteel nature of your comments. I have come to admire the fairness and inclusiveness with which you embrace so much of the human experience. Yet, when you write that it was humans, not a religion, that the NAZIS killed, please do bear in mind that the only thing that kept that from being the case was that they didn't kill us all.

windbender

12/21/2004 03:35:16 PM

rbethell - Your point is well taken. Indeed, within the larger Christian Community where Catholicism is the predominent face of the faith, the doctrine of accepting salvation through Jesus as being the singular path of righteousness does not exist. Here in America, with the conspicuous presence on the national stage of folks like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Bob Jones III and even Billy Graham having spoken out about the dreaded Jewish mark on American Christian Society, it's easy to have a much more cautious take on where all this too easily heads. Father Coughlins are still out there too - I've been to more than one Mass where I've heard them speak. Still, your are largely correct, for the time being. The fundamentalists are not the moral majority they would like to be taken for.

clyde5001

12/21/2004 03:31:32 PM

Marirev, You talk a wonderful story that (I’m sure) sounds absolutely wonderful to yourself. Those of us down here in reality have no freaking clue what you’re getting at, but have the feeling there is something derogatory and dismissive in it.

themarirev

12/21/2004 03:22:17 PM

clyde5001 For good or bad, you have proved my point. I do not segregate myself from humnaity and therefore a large part of my family was killed by Hitler as well and they weren't all Jews. I did not suggest that the horrors should be forgotten or that the dead should not be honored. I made the point that the blood that flows in humanity is no better, more rightous or more deserving then any other human. It was humans that were killed, not the religion. If anything the Jewish religon continued to strengthen by the atroscity, not weaken or diminish. Cont...

themarirev

12/21/2004 03:21:22 PM

Cont... As Isreal fights the "rightous" fight in their war with the Palistinians, as Christians fight the "rightous" war with anyone not Christian in their effort to form a new Isreal in America for Christians, it is humans being tortured and killed. The greatest irony is Hitler thought he was being "rightous" in his efforts as well as well. This only goes to prove my point, it is the human, not the religion that does the killing. Religious piety is just the excuse and shield. Not every Christian is anti-semitic any more then every Jew is anti-Christian. However, it is we, those inbetween, that pay the highest price for the minority of theocractic ideology. Rev

rbethell

12/21/2004 03:01:00 PM

Still, as crazy as we find all this, we don't get together and burn churches, paint Stars of David on Christian Community Centers or refer to Chrysler, GM, Ford and Chevrolet as the Christian car companies. Nor to any extent do you find the church lady down the street doing any of this either, if we really want to be honest with ourselves. Here in Canada, in fact, I can recall the Talmud Torah library of Montreal, torched last year by an Islamist, being rebuilt with the help of mosques, churches, schools, girl guide troops, you name it. It may be time to admit that most people in our North American society, even the Christian ones, are basically decent people who do not wish Jews ill.

Nezalhualixtlan

12/21/2004 02:54:16 PM

xcelfitpat wrote: "...I'd say that I'm pretty happy that we started as a Christian country..." I point this out almost every time this comes up, but we were not started as a Christian country, we were a country founded on religious tolerance. Anyway, once again I'll back up the assertion that we weren't founded on Christianity: Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,..." Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, haven seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation. It doesn't get much clearer than that.

rbethell

12/21/2004 02:54:08 PM

windbender writes: And though I'm reluctant to be blunt, many Christians, on the other hand, hold that absolutely everybody that isn't a Christian is going to burn like cheap charcoal. Oh, I think far fewer than all that. Remember, the distinctly American brand of fundamental evangelicalism is not only vastly minoritarian in the US itself, it is even moreso in the world at large. Mainstream Protestant churches, the Catholics, the East Orthodox comprise more than 80% of Christendom. And certainly no such language is to be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, for one. You'll not hear it from Lutherans or Methodists to any degree either. Rapturianity has much less play in Christendom at large than people are often willing to allow credit.

clyde5001

12/21/2004 02:45:16 PM

they begin to whine they are being oppressed and repressed. I wasn't just Jews that were killed by Hitler, but they are the only ones they focus on. I’m sorry, a large part of my family was killed by Hitler. I guess I should just get over it. Just like (as was mentioned before) the families of those killed on September 11 should just let bygones be bygones. I tell you what – when there are no (and I do mean none) pogroms by Christians, no anti-Semitism stirred up by them for at least 100 years, maybe then I‘ll start to feel secure. Until then, I’ll watch my back and I WILL open my mouth every time anyone says anything anti-Semitic.

windbender

12/21/2004 02:45:03 PM

Secular - meaning non-observant. By the way, watsy, happy holidays to you and your's, dear. And health in the New Year. If you bump into the Heretic, pass that along to him, please.

watsy

12/21/2004 02:38:59 PM

What is the difference between a "secular Jewish community" and a Jewish community. Are there "secular Christian communities?" Are some of the Jews that are part of the secular Jewish community religious? I'm assuming, by calling them that, we are saying that all of the Jews in Hollywood are not religious. Could someone who understands please explain?

themarirev

12/21/2004 02:37:12 PM

Nither Boteach or Donahue truly represent all Christian or all Jews. This dialouge does however give a shining example of how pride and vainty are venomous to the spirit. Personally I am sick and tired or the whining on both parts. Either party doesn't get their way or their theology accepted without challenge, they begin to whine they are being oppressed and repressed. I wasn't just Jews that were killed by Hitler, but they are the only ones they focus on. Catholics think observance of their benvolent works should be the only focus, not all those killed and tortured by them. Cont...

themarirev

12/21/2004 02:36:23 PM

Cont...This war of the Abrahamic religions has been going on for a long time and has escalated over the past few years. As far as I am concerned, it is the human being that I focus on and not their ideological theology. Religion does not make the person, people make a religion. Each religion has done their part in the shedding of the blood of Gods children and none are exempt. Worse then the shedding of this blood is the silence of those who know it is happening yet do nothing about it. Rev

windbender

12/21/2004 02:30:08 PM

Still, as crazy as we find all this, we don't get together and burn churches, paint Stars of David on Christian Community Centers or refer to Chrysler, GM, Ford and Chevrolet as the Christian car companies.

windbender

12/21/2004 02:15:12 PM

And, yes, I'm aware that the key is supposed to be that the suicide/infanticide was the human blood sacrifice made personally on my behalf (along with the other billions of us - personally).

Matityahu

12/21/2004 02:08:43 PM

"well, Matiyahu, prior to running into you, I would have thought that the idea that there was particular anamosity towards Christianity among Jewish people was at best a gross exaggeration, but you're certainly changing my mind on that count. " when people like Donohue claim to represent this "Christianity", is the "animosity" you claim not justified?

windbender

12/21/2004 02:08:38 PM

The perjorative use of the term "secular Jews" is, in and of itself, an indicator of the intent of people who view those who hold views other than theirs as antithetical to G-d's Will (something they alone seem to clearly understand). Jews do not hate Christians as a matter of consequence in their own faith. In fact, Jews foster the idea that absolutely anyone may lead a worthy life and not be a Jew.

windbender

12/21/2004 02:08:26 PM

And though I'm reluctant to be blunt, many Christians, on the other hand, hold that absolutely everybody that isn't a Christian is going to burn like cheap charcoal. The Christian religion is rooted in glorifying human sacrifice for cryin out loud. They hold that the majority of the population of the entire planet earth is unsaved and wicked and worthy of torture throughout time eternal. The gospel of love they offer is one that is available to you by simply accepting the notion that G-d Almight arranged his own suicide. Still, Jews believe that if, in accepting these ideas, you can still manage to treat others with respect and consideration, have at it. The problem is that you folks keep killing other people periodically to prove your devotion.

Matityahu

12/21/2004 02:07:23 PM

rbethell "A defect you appear to have picked up as well, if you can do no better than this as a reply. " why should I "dialogue" with a person who accuses me of saying things I never said?

YairbenAvraham

12/21/2004 01:52:49 PM

As an American Jew, I can say that I am pleased with the level of understanding that has developed between American Jews and Catholics. I am frequently involved in interfaith events myself. But hmmm... let's see. Why would Jews tend to be on guard around Catholicism? 1800 years of Crusades, Inquisitions, Expulsions, forced conversions, and Pogroms, all sanctioned by the Catholic Church and carried out against Jews. That is a LOT of history, and it is a bit troubling when people suggest Jews should just "get over it." I mean really. The Holocaust was the government-sponsored slaughter of SIX MILLION Jews. One third of us were wiped off the face of the earth. Would anyone suggest that the deaths of just under 3,000 Americans on 9/11/01 should be "gotten over"? That we should just shake hands with al Qaida and agree to disagree? Come on.

rawwar73

12/21/2004 01:34:00 PM

well, Matiyahu, prior to running into you, I would have thought that the idea that there was particular anamosity towards Christianity among Jewish people was at best a gross exaggeration, but you're certainly changing my mind on that count.

rbethell

12/21/2004 01:32:25 PM

Clyde writes: Do you understand why we can never truly, really, feel safe? And why we fear what is below the surface of what Donohue said? You know, every Jew has to fear anti-semitism. Every black has to fear a lynch mob in sheets. It is unfair, and at once it is also true. That said, there is a perpsective to put these things in. The US of A is the most philo-semitic nation there has ever been on the face of the Earth, bar none. Not even Davidic Israel was so safe for Jews, as great empires and the sea-people were always at the borders. I think we need to acknowledge that amock Christians with pitchforks is a vision that, for the moment, belongs strictly to the realm of fantasy. Christians of today's Anerica, on balance, are still more likely to rally to the side of a Jewish cause, than to its opposition.

rbethell

12/21/2004 01:28:01 PM

Matityahu writes: Christians were never too good at that A defect you appear to have picked up as well, if you can do no better than this as a reply.

Matityahu

12/21/2004 01:23:00 PM

"apparently love and respect don't work together for you?" apparently accusing people of things that they never said or implied DOES work well for you? "People are free to believe as they see fit," when did I deny that? are you sure you're not referring to yourself? "but the one thing which I do think should be pretty well out of bounds is for any of us to presume to tell those from other belief systems "this is what you really believe"." then try to disprove what I said then "No one has the right to define someone else's beliefs for them or the rest of the world. So much for constructive dialouge! " Christians were never too good at that

Matityahu

12/21/2004 01:20:36 PM

"Wow. That's an extremely unfair" how so? its true "untrue" sure it is I made two statements (1) Chrisitanity worships a human. this can not be denied (2) it got its ideas from pagan Roman, Greek, Babylonian, Egyptian, you name it. this may take some opening up for a Christian, but its true. if you still deny this, say so, and I'll provide more TANGIBLE proof :) "and uncharitable statement." Donohue saying secular Jews are anti-Catholic is likewise uncharitable, would you agree? we (Jews) didn't start this argument. "What was that about loving your neighbor being a Judeo value -" I didn't say I direspected Christians or their beliefs, I just said it was less than right. you see, the concept of tolerance and 'rightness' are not a narrow, one-way street for Jew. we can think your beliefs are wrong and still tolerate them. Christians, however, have only recently begun to accept this concept.

clyde5001

12/21/2004 01:12:35 PM

Rtbethell, Do you understand why we can never truly, really, feel safe? And why we fear what is below the surface of what Donohue said?

rbethell

12/21/2004 01:09:40 PM

You know Clyde, it is easy to take offense in today's world. When "The Passion" came out I would read a lot of commentary from non-Christians, such as Rabbi Boteach (whom I used to admire as a bedrock of common sense wisdom) telling me what Vatican II meant! I can't imagine having the audacity to explain Mishnah to the Rabbi, for example. That said, there's a difference between feeling the breath of a slight from the ridiculous Bill O'Reilly (who has probably been harder on me as a Canadian "Librul" than any American Jew), and feeling the heat of a mob with torches. Realistically, we are not now at a stage where we can seriously talk about the latter having any prospects...

rawwar73

12/21/2004 01:08:24 PM

matiyahu: "Worship a human is a Christian value, which they borrowed from numerous pagan religions." Wow. That's an extremely unfair, untrue and uncharitable statement. What was that about loving your neighbor being a Judeo value - apparently love and respect don't work together for you? People are free to believe as they see fit, but the one thing which I do think should be pretty well out of bounds is for any of us to presume to tell those from other belief systems "this is what you really believe". No one has the right to define someone else's beliefs for them or the rest of the world. So much for constructive dialouge!

eastcoastlady

12/21/2004 01:06:37 PM

windbender, Thank you! You are one of the reasons I come back to the boards. I think Mati is another soul mate, along with Walking. I also dig Clyde. No offense to the many others I admire, please....

windbender

12/21/2004 12:59:50 PM

Clyde - actually, it seems I was reading a rant by excelfitpat and mistook it for you words. After reviewing your posts, I find I am in awe of your insight and clarity - not to mention charity and reason.

windbender

12/21/2004 12:56:57 PM

eastcoastlady - sure have missed you. If we don't run into each other again before then, please have the happiest of holiday seasons and much health in the new year, dear. Prosperity is just a matter of lasting long enough, I'm hoping.

windbender

12/21/2004 12:55:34 PM

Mati - MOBOCRACY. Well put. Clyde - I caught the majority rule portion of your post and went from there. We share EXACTLY the same concerns, my friend.

clyde5001

12/21/2004 12:45:45 PM

Rbethell, I worry about both. And I worry about here because there has eventually been anti-Semitic hatred in every Christian country that Jews have lived in. After the last election, that possibility came closer. Should I read Donohue’s words and not feel even slightly offended? How about the two things Bill O’Reilly last week? Or the comments here? Can I ever feel like I’m really an American and not just a guest of the Christian hosts?

rbethell

12/21/2004 12:36:47 PM

Clyde: my guess? Probably about the same number as the number of progroms that appeared in Pittsburgh. You want to worry about anti-semitic movies? I suggest worrying about the Arab-world films showing rabbis sacrificing children and drinking their blood. You know, their mainstream 8 PM viewing material. Jews have many things to worry about in this world, as they always have had. At the moment however, logic and reason suggest mobs of Christians with torches are probably not at the top of that list of worries...

clyde5001

12/21/2004 12:33:30 PM

"You must have all forgotten how up in arms the secular and religious Jewish community was over the Passion and how much they claimed it would lead to anti-semitic behavior here. As I recall, none of this fear/hate talk led to reality." No that the DVD is out – and being given out for free – how many children will grow up believing that Jews are Christ-killers – and turning into anti-Semitic adults.

Matityahu

12/21/2004 12:31:54 PM

eastcoast thanks :)

Matityahu

12/21/2004 12:30:42 PM

""P.S. Approximately the same number of Christians were slaughtered by the Nazis during the same time period. Why is it that no one ever mentions that fact? " I'm pretty sure that most of the victims who were communists or political dissenters, etc. would not have self-indentified as believing Christians you should replace the word with "Gentiles".

Matityahu

12/21/2004 12:30:17 PM

"I'm pretty happy that we started as a Christian country and remain one even though there is no other place on the planet where you can more freely exercise your rights to religious tolerance and freedom. " yet all of the founding fathers never bothered to mention association in teh Declaration of Independance, Constitution, Articles of Conferderation, or the like. "You must have all forgotten how up in arms the secular and religious Jewish community was over the Passion and how much they claimed it would lead to anti-semitic behavior here. As I recall, none of this fear/hate talk led to reality." it DID lead to reality. wake up and research how the Arab media responded to the film. "For those who refuse to understand or appreciate the level of sacrifice that Christ performed on their behalf that's called "free will". Exercise it as you please." I refuse to understand it because its not true.

eastcoastlady

12/21/2004 12:28:05 PM

Mati, For someone so young, you're pretty darn wise and perceptive. I know older people than you who don't seem to have that insight.

Matityahu

12/21/2004 12:26:27 PM

"I'd say the posts in this column provide all the evidence Mr. Donohue needs to support his claims of anti-Catholic sentiment." Catholics do good enough job at that themselves "What hatred and bitterness!" do you include yourself "I disagree with many Catholic teachings" cool "but the good far outweighs the bad in any factual, historical study. " would you mind providing these historical facts? "most of Europe and correspondingly America would be worshipping Allah right now if not for the Catholic church." good - that's at least not idolatry for Jews "solid Judeo-Christian values" no such thing. THe Ten Utterances (or Commandments) are 'Judeo' values. Love your neighbor as yourself is a 'Judeo' value. Worship a human is a Christian value, which they borrowed from numerous pagan religions.

Matityahu

12/21/2004 12:20:59 PM

windbender "Clyde - The Constitution exists, at least in part, to protect the minority form the will of the majority. You have only to look at the murder of Jews for refusing to accept Christianity througout history (many different countries, many different branches of the Church, many different centuries - always the same tact) to understand the wisdom of this bit of simple human rights innovation. " amen

clyde5001

12/21/2004 12:20:31 PM

Windbender, Did I write something to make you think I didn’t believe that? The constitution, however, can be changed, and I am very fearful, given the recent election, the conservative Christians will impose their way of life on us, whether we want it or not.

Matityahu

12/21/2004 12:19:51 PM

"Government endorse "my" religion... Nope, doesn't work that way. See the way government works in this incredible country is that we elect officials to represent the values of the people and to uphold the Constitution. Since the values of the people still happen to be predominantly based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, these values are then reflected in our laws and culture. You can try to deny this fact all you want, but this is the way it works. When unitarian values become the majority in the US, then our society and its laws will reflect the same. Try another country if the system doesn't work out for you. " your understanding of democracy is DEAD WRONG. "majority rule" is NOT the guiding principle, it is only of SECONDARY priority. the PRIMARY guiding rule of democracy is that every person has certain rights that cannot be infringed by anyone, INCLUDING seperation of church and state. Absolute "majority rule" is not 'democracy', it is MOBOCRACY.

Matityahu

12/21/2004 12:17:56 PM

"I don't hate Jews" ok then "my church doesn't hate Jews, " I would say that preaching "incompleteness", supercessionism, and the like IS hate. "but my faith believes in one path to God" a wrong belief, but not hateful in itself... "because of this belief we profess this belief to others. " you do more than "profess". and that's where the hate comes in. "sorry if this seems like hate;" well it is "but the truth is it is driven by the exact opposite set of emotions. " you can't handle the truth "To blame Christianity or Catholicism for the killing of the Jews is just plain wrong! " actually its right "But if it makes you feel better, go for it. " you're so convincing...

windbender

12/21/2004 12:15:13 PM

Clyde - The Constitution exists, at least in part, to protect the minority form the will of the majority. You have only to look at the murder of Jews for refusing to accept Christianity througout history (many different countries, many different branches of the Church, many different centuries - always the same tact) to understand the wisdom of this bit of simple human rights innovation.

windbender

12/21/2004 12:12:18 PM

This quote from the text of the article; "I have been tagged as “a neocon plant inside the Catholic right.” And do you know who did the planting? Jews." should serve as a clear expression of the intent this piece carries. I don't even own a shovel.

clyde5001

12/21/2004 11:59:15 AM

Sorry if you don't like it; sorry if this seems like hate; but the truth is it is driven by the exact opposite set of emotions. And still – keep it out of my face. This is a free country. I don’t have to have your religion shoved down my throat. To blame Christianity or Catholicism for the killing of the Jews is just plain wrong! But if it makes you feel better, go for it. Obviously, you’ve never read anything besides your catechism, much less a history book. Just you (supposed) new testament alone preaches the hatred. But if it helps you feel warm and fuzzy at night, go for it.

clyde5001

12/21/2004 11:59:05 AM

Like I said, Clyde, your hatred seems to pretty much support the points made in the article. Wow. Common response. If we don’t fall over and kowtow to your every word, then we have hatred. What a typical response. I don't hate Jews, my church doesn't hate Jews, but my faith believes in one path to God and because of this belief we profess this belief to others. And if we don’t accept everything your church has to say as true, then we hate you. Right? Some in my faith believe yours is idolatry, but you don’t see us leafleting you to death, do you?

xcelfitpat

12/21/2004 11:41:03 AM

Like I said, Clyde, your hatred seems to pretty much support the points made in the article. I don't hate Jews, my church doesn't hate Jews, but my faith believes in one path to God and because of this belief we profess this belief to others. Sorry if you don't like it; sorry if this seems like hate; but the truth is it is driven by the exact opposite set of emotions. To blame Christianity or Catholicism for the killing of the Jews is just plain wrong! But if it makes you feel better, go for it.

xcelfitpat

12/21/2004 11:37:41 AM

Government endorse "my" religion... Nope, doesn't work that way. See the way government works in this incredible country is that we elect officials to represent the values of the people and to uphold the Constitution. Since the values of the people still happen to be predominantly based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, these values are then reflected in our laws and culture. You can try to deny this fact all you want, but this is the way it works. When unitarian values become the majority in the US, then our society and its laws will reflect the same. Try another country if the system doesn't work out for you.

clyde5001

12/21/2004 11:34:52 AM

Approximately the same number of Christians were slaughtered by the Nazis during the same time period. Why is it that no one ever mentions that fact? Because they weren’t killed for being Christian. They were killed for being Communist, or resistance fighters, or being gay or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hitler never had a plan to exterminate the Christian population of Europe – that would have left Europe with a total population of about a thousand – and who would have ironed his socks? On the other hand, the Nazis set out to kill every Jew in Europe, and would have succeeded if they won the war. Where do you think they learned to hate Jews – from the secular Jewish owners of Hollywood? No, it was the 1,800 years of utter hatred shoved down the throats of Europe by the churches that gave the Nazis their ideas. Continue in your Christian triumhalism.

xcelfitpat

12/21/2004 11:33:28 AM

I'd say the posts in this column provide all the evidence Mr. Donohue needs to support his claims of anti-Catholic sentiment. What hatred and bitterness! I disagree with many Catholic teachings, but the good far outweighs the bad in any factual, historical study. The truth be told, most of Europe and correspondingly America would be worshipping Allah right now if not for the Catholic church. We may not be perfect, but based on the success of the US in such a brief period of time based on a system of law and government founded on solid Judeo-Christian values I'd say that I'm pretty happy that we started as a Christian country and remain one even though there is no other place on the planet where you can more freely exercise your rights to religious tolerance and freedom. Name one other!

xcelfitpat

12/21/2004 11:27:00 AM

Let's see, what year were those movies made in? Pretty recent if I'm not mistaken. I'm not even going to jump into the Jew vs Catholic or Protestant thing. You must have all forgotten how up in arms the secular and religious Jewish community was over the Passion and how much they claimed it would lead to anti-semitic behavior here. As I recall, none of this fear/hate talk led to reality. For those who refuse to understand or appreciate the level of sacrifice that Christ performed on their behalf that's called "free will". Exercise it as you please. Hollywood is not anti-religious...okey dokey! I don't see any of you attacking Boteach for his blatant personal attacks on Donohue... I do see Donohue quoting sources to back his comments. Where are yours? P.S. Approximately the same number of Christians were slaughtered by the Nazis during the same time period. Why is it that no one ever mentions that fact?

Shirah

12/21/2004 10:46:20 AM

Rtbethell, Thank you bringing up Bells of St Mary's. I could add other movies to your list such as Ben Hur, It's A Wonderful Life, and the Ten Commandments. Anti-Christian movies all of them.

Shirah

12/21/2004 10:38:51 AM

Mr. Donohue, It is Mel Gibson and his movie that is anti-Catholic, at least anti-post Vatican II Catholicism. You are the one with a problem with the Catholic Church as it exists in 2004, not Jews, secular or otherwise. The Catholic Church has done a better job of improving relations between Christians and Jews than any branch of Protestantism. Conservative Catholics want to go back to the bad old days of pre-Vatican II Catholicism. Yes, I freely admit that I do have a serious problem with that. I will repeat that studios are now owned by multi-national corporation.

mrmissy

12/21/2004 10:14:00 AM

Just because one doesn't buy into or did not run out and see the Passion---one is now voted out of the community of Christ? Says who? I didn't see, don't plan on seeing--don't plan on sending any children to their horror to see it. What is it about these so-called "God-is-in-my-pocket" religious zealots that they equate movie and television viewing and choices with being right with God or not. Bet the Donohue just LOVES Birth of a Nation---it being so CHRISTIAN and all.

clyde5001

12/21/2004 10:04:47 AM

UNC, Drop the victim mentality? Excuse the f*** out of me. 6 million of us, almost ½ of us, were murdered in our lifetimes – including 45 members of my family – but I should give it up? You should be ashamed. Tell me how much your church did for us while this was going on. Tell me how much you’re our friends. Ands so what about Israel? I’m an American. I will never move there unless I’m chased out of this country. I want to feel safe here. People like Donohue, O’Reilly, Falwell, Robertson – and Bush – let me know we should not let our guard down. And there are some of us alive who remember what the churches did to us and preached about us. Those recantations are nice. But deeds, not creeds.

buckle

12/21/2004 10:00:46 AM

Anal Sex ? You gotta be kidding me. It is amazing what comes out of leading catholics when the get baited. I mean, why should they have a problem with that subject anyways ? there priests don't have a problem with it as long as it small children. buckle

eastcoastlady

12/21/2004 09:58:06 AM

dear strefanash, giitv, night, rbet, Thank you soooo much for shoring me up. It's scary and hurtful to be lumped into a group and blamed for anything, including, in this case, being the basis for the downfall of America's so-called values. Hey, Gorilla, try supporting your statement with some facts. Go through all the major Hollywood studios, then look for directors, producers, actors, etc, then try to find out how many are Jewish, then find out how many are practicing, then, and only then, come back with real backup for your "let's face it" statement. What will it take for anti-semitism to go away for real? If you don't like individuals, fine! Don't blame it on religion.

NightSky1

12/21/2004 09:19:23 AM

Okay, I saw this interview, and, okay, it was pretty silly to say anybody "controls" Hollywood except the almighty dollar--what deeply shocked me about what Donohue said was the incredibly malicious rant he want on after that, accusing Jews of, among other equally crazy things, liking and promoting anal sex. Hello? The other things he added were just as bad if not even worse! My little Christian self was totally SHOCKED!

rbethell

12/21/2004 07:07:53 AM

You know, the idea that Jews are, en masse, looking to depict Catholics badly in Hollywood is ridiculous. Some of the most favourable depictions, such as "The Bells of St. Mary's", were created by Jewish people. Hollywood producers of all religions have one objective - to make money. What enables the poor portrayal of Catholic religious figures in Hollywood is the fact that audiences aren't offended by it. What Donohue once did was ensure we realized that no, these depictions are not acceptable. When he stuck to this note - making sure that this one remaining prejudice was also intolerable - Donohue did well. But to veer out into the obvious wingnuttery of Jewish-conspiracy land (which he haltingly admits he did by acknowledging the word 'control' in his article) is to do a disservice to his cause. We did not need a misstep like this.

mightymountaingorilla

12/21/2004 01:05:09 AM

Okay, I agree with most of the Rabbi's statements. However... If the shoe fits... Face it, most of hollywood is controlled by Jews--from top to bottom. I'm not saying that it's bad. What I am saying is bad is the constant berating (by many prominently Jewish members of Hollywood) of a movie like "Passion of the Christ" which is an expression of someone's faith. The way they behaved was prejudiced because they believed it would portray them as "Christ-killers." However, everyone needs to accept art as being tough and angry at times. It's not meant to be censored...and that's what many people in Hollywood were trying to do. Once again, there is nothing wrong with Jewish people controlling Hollywood. What is wrong is denying the fact that there was some sense of censorship by a demographic that's primarily Jewish.

strefanash

12/20/2004 11:42:12 PM

I am against any church the leadership of which claimed rulership of the entire world (Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, his document unam sanctam) or whose leader calls himself infalible (even with the catholic checks balances and disclaimers) I am against any church that thought it had the duty to torture to death any who disagreed with it ( they got this from St Augustine who sang amazing grace and called in the Inquisitor - or at least a 4th centurey equivalent thereof). And I am against any church that steals money from the poor to glorify itself. .. so i am anti catholic (and anti protestant because we prots are not a lot better, the truth be known). I can only thank god that i do not have to find christ there; and am ashamed that the Jews have been caused to stumble becasue of us

strefanash

12/20/2004 11:34:19 PM

did you know that the old tridentine mass still refers to "those perfidous Jews"? THis was discretely dropped in about 1963, but the mass Mel Gibson goes to is tridentine ( ie dates from 1545-60 with no alternations since). So I would not be surprised if he is a jew hater, of course he would be too canny to say so. As for that blasphemous pornographic snuff fest, that movie, I agree with Rabbi Boteach on it. The church is the best argument satan has against the christian faith How can i blame any Jew who sees us as the poisonous hypocrites we are? donohue most likely idolizes his church and will not allow criticism of it. this is all too common. As for his name calling of Jews let him read St James chapter 1 verse 26

god_is_in_the_tv

12/20/2004 10:51:35 PM

Boteach has been railing against me, I have been tagged as “a neocon plant inside the Catholic right.” And do you know who did the planting? Jews. You're kidding, right? This guy is putting us on, right? I mean please don't tell me that there's a person in charge of a large and powerful lobbying organization that vehemently defends the assertion that "The Jews" are the enemy of Christian America. This guy speaks for who again? Maybe I'm just tired. I did have a long day, but this article sounds like satire. I'm incredulous - and a little stunned.

UNCC_49er

12/20/2004 10:38:21 PM

Clyde5001, Give it up. Do you really not feel safe around Christians? You gotta be kidding me. Where would Israel be if it were not for the United States? Not to mention, where was all that anti-semitism that was supposed to occur in the wake of The Passion? You really need to drop the victim mentality. All of the past abuses have been recanted by all of the main Christian groups.

clyde5001

12/20/2004 10:17:28 PM

And Jews shouldn't feel even the slightest bit anti-Catholic because....of how nice the church treated us for over a thousand years? Give me a break! A few decades of not being persecuted does not undo all the damage. It will be a long, looooong time before Jews - even in the United States - can feel truly safe living among Christians.

edelphi

12/20/2004 09:34:01 PM

Hollywood is heavily secular Jewish? What is meant by heavily, that they might be a few percentage points more numerous than among the general population where they are something like 1-2%? If Hollywood is 5 or even 10% secular Jewish, is that "heavily" Jewish? What's the percentage of Catholics in Hollywood? More or less than the percentage of Jews? If it's more, is it too much to ask that Donohue withdraw his complaint, seeing as no one complains about Hollywood Catholics?

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